Guild Wars 2

I don’t want to turn this into a flame war, but I think some clarification could help. Noah, pretty sure you do not now of what you speak here. When Pyro or others say mind games with iLeap, it’s basically the same thing you do with focus temporal curtain: You use the the first part of the skillet o bait a dodge. One of the “mind games” is making your opponent try to guess about when you are going to hit the imob, similar to how laying down a TC and letting your opponent know see it for a few seconds makes them worry about when the pull is coming, and they end up trying to time their dodge and it’s a mind game you are playing with them. Others can speak more about other ways they use ileap. Personally I’ll take a less bugged skill, but at least I get where others are coming from.

I don’t know where you’re coming from on the idea that buffing skillful play isn’t important. You’re free to have whatever opinion you want, but I think most mesmers do want a high skill ceiling available to them and want changes that reward skillful play over ones that don’t. These changes do nothing for that and are just a buff to the lowest skill ceiling (and floor btw) build we have. Yes we are stronger, but are we stronger in a way that is good for the long term health of the class?

Levetty.1279:

skcamow.3527:

(don’t tell me this isn’t a buff).

Its a bug fix.

2 years into the game we shouldn’t be excited and thanking them for bug fixes.

A buff is something that is done to increase the strength of a class relative to other classes. One would think this is done with some planning, as in we will give class A skill X and this will be ok relative to all other classes. Well that already happened with iLeap and iWarden, the game was balanced around us having those skills working. Except they didn’t so we’ve been playing without them. Just fixing those skills brings us back to where we were when they were given to us in terms of balance. Yes having working skills makes us stronger, but like he said this isn’t a buff the way making MoD aoe is a buff.

Pyro explained a little more where I’m coming from, but I guess I’ll clarify further as there were some strong responses:

First off this patch didn’t bring mesmers into the condi meta, we were already there. If you don’t see many mesmers running condi, the conclusion isn’t that we can’t, it’s that many don’t like the play style. PU condi is a strong build, granted someone has to keep attacking you for it to work, but the huge amount of QQ tells you it is powerful. Anyone who has tried it and knows a little of what they are doing knows it is strong. So as I said, they buffed a strong point, thus skewing us further in an already strong direction. As Pyro said reiterated above and as I already said, in the end this will lead to a nerf and end up being a net loss to our class.

Let me also point out that if they were trying to bring condi shatter forward, then that just shows even more that they don’t understand the class. The reasons why a condi shatter won’t work have been laid out elsewhere, so I won’t derail on that.

The Mantra things are just dressing, parsley without any steak. AoE MoP isn’t going to somehow make mesmers start kicking kitten in zergs. Yes AoE MoD will be nice in sPvP, yes I agree that change is solid, but it’s not going to revolutionize any builds. CI is still the same build, just now you may get an extra interrupt or two. So yes nice buff on MoD, but given the deep problems we have, I still call it dressing relative to those.

I do not consider bug fixes buffs. Pyro explained above why the ileap fix isn’t that amazing, and it just goes to show how abused and neglected our class is that “OMG OUR SKILLZ WORK NOW” is what they get when they fix a skill that has been stupidly broken for a year. Of course I’m happy we have a phantasm that works, but honestly the response should be “It’s about time.”

Before you snap at me telling me to reroll, be aware that your post makes it clear I think to many that you don’t have a well developed perspective on the class.

Look at it this way: Was anyone (besides semi-clueless people wanting to condi in dungeons) saying condi needed a buff? Not really. So what were we complaining about? Bugs yes, but that is just basically not being kittenin kittened as a company, yes we want a functioning skill bar. What about all the deeper issues with the class that have been discussed on these forums, the various contradictions that really prevent us from reaching the full potential of the class.

Case and point: the build that got buffed was condi PU, a build that essentially makes no use of our F1-F4 skills. Sure ya ok people can take maim the whatever, but most people know why condi shatter will suck compared to PU. Rather than moving the class further towards skillful play and better use of our core class mechanic, they moved us away from it.

A lot of responses are “We are stronger now why are you complaining?!” I’m complaining because we were already strong, spec PU condi and hardly anyone will beat you 1v2. Most people don’t complain about being unable to kill anything. They complain about being unable to kill anything if they try to play the mesmer as it should be played. That’s my complaint.

I’m not the only one making that complaint. Lots of others have stated how they are disappointed that they are buffing us in this way, buffing something that didn’t need a buff. They just do it with a lot of insults directed at PU so people ignore them.

TL;DR: The class has deep issues that need addressing, issues besides bugged skills, and not a single one was really addressed with these changes. In fact the changes push us further away from the roots of what the mesmer is supposed to be.

I realized what really bugs me about the changes: Really the meat of it is a giant buff to the easiest spec we have. They did absolutely nothing to buff mesmers’ ability to do anything mesmery. No buff to lockdown or shatter or any build that focuses on control, timing or active counter play. Just rotate through your skills and watch your enemy kill themselves attacking you with condi PU, yay.

I don’t hate on that build, it’s fun to troll sometimes, and I will play it sometimes when I being an unkillable troll or am feeling lazy. But here is why it really makes me sad that that is the build they chose to buff:

It shows that Anet really still doesn’t have a clue what to do with mesmers. It shows that the glory days of control and skillful counter play are not coming back. We’ve all been holding out for more GW1 type mesmer buffs, and this patch shows they aren’t coming. They heard that mesmers needed help, so what did they do? Buffed our ability to basically auto-pilot, because they don’t know how to do anything else. Buff our lockdown abilities, you know, basically the whole point of playing a mesmer? No. Buff shatter, our next hardest build to play correctly after lockdown? No. Buff anything that in any way raises the skill ceiling on the class? No. Players who want to play like real mesmers in GW1 got nothing here (again no hate on condi PU, if some people like it that’s fine, play how you want and have fun, I get it, but condi PU is pure GW2, not GW1 mesmer).

It’s ironic that with this patch they are going to make mesmers the class with the hands down strongest 1vX build in the game, I mean it really is going to be crazy OP, and yet at the same time have made me lose all hope that I’ll ever get anything like my beloved GW1 class back. Truly disappointed and saddened.

And the icing on this depressing cake? The changes will make condi PU so over the top OP, that it’s a near certainty we will see these changes undone/nerfed into the ground within a few weeks, and we will be right back where we are now with not much to show for it except a few bug fixes it took what a year to do (and like everyone else I’m not holding my breath that they actually managed to fix the bugs).

Truly a sad day for our once wonderful class. There are a few PS4 games on the horizon I’m waiting for, and when those come out I’ll probably say goodbye to gw2. I’ve loved this game, but it’s just hard to watch a class I love get slowly killed.

LOL @ buffing PU condi. The strongest spec got buffed a lot imo. It still can’t catch anyone in wvw who doesn’t want to fight, but buffed a lot. Nobody is going to run condi shatter because as Pyro has explained elsewhere, you’ll be just as squishy but without the burst, no way your going to have the dps of a standard shatter as a condi shatter so you’ll just die before you can kill anyone.

No, this is a straight buff to condi PU, which I’m fine with, but it seems strange that they didn’t buff normal shatter which is kind of on life support. They didn’t buff any lockdown, except kinda indirectly by supposedly fixing iWarden.

On the iWarden and iLeap, I’ll believe it when I see it. If they fix warden this time of course I’ll be really happy, but I wonder what changed between now and last feature patch? Did someone finally learn how to do their job? I just don’t get how it took them this long to do a simple bug fix. Oooohh wow big new feature, you got your kittenty code working. Seems weird, and more likely its the same kittenty code with the same kittenty bugs.

So basically, a few minor changes and two big changes that buff the most hated, strongest and honestly uninteresting build we have. I’ll keep playing interrupt and when I get fed up with other cheese classes I’ll spec PU and feel better for a while trolling people. Then when I get bored it will be back to a build that is interesting to play.

Here’s my question: Aside from the purple stuff and nostalgia for GW1 mesmer, why not roll an elementalist?

Still pretty sure you can just run away from a condi mes after the patch, how can they catch you? I don’t think the torment AA is going to be enough to really stop you from just leaving the fight. Granted that is wvw, spvp this is def a buff.

Martin Kerstein.3071:

One Note Chord.5031:

I might take the under for a day, until we discover the new bugs.

It’s probably too optimistic to think the feature patch will actually address any of these, though.

On the contrary! I talked to one of our developers, and there are a lot of Mesmer bug fixes that will be deployed with the Feature Pack. I do not have the full list yet, keep an eye out for the update notes once the Feature Pack goes live.

We’ve heard this before though, as in last feature patch, and here we are again hearing about bug fixes in the works. A lot of players were pretty bummed last time around, I’d say if it goes the same way again most will just give up hope. I’m pretty casual and overall still love the game, even if you guys can’t seem to handle the mesmer class, like at all, so you could probably get away with not delivering again, which I’m sure you’re aware of.

Anyways, not sure what the goal of your post was, but if it was to raise hopes you probably ought to deliver this time around, just from the point of view of running a good ship that you can feel proud of.

We’ve heard this before though re. bug fixes. I’m happy that there is another chance, but really we’ve been here before. I think there is a big chance whoever said that is just doing PR and they don’t actually have much worked out. Hate to be a downer, but like I said we’ve heard this before, like almost the exact same thing last feature patch, and here we are…

I mean kitten iWarden, at this point it’s almost like if it’s still not fixed will it ever be?

Fay.2357:

Coulter.2315:

frifox.5283:

Coulter.2315:

You’re talking nonsense if you think a warrior can reach never mind keep up 25 stacks of bleed in PvP, however giving staff clones a double hit which can proc Burning and have a 2nd chance at critting for Bleed will be OP.

I don’t do PvP, only PvE.

Then you need to think of PvP when balancing.

Ok, lets think PvP.

I’m thinking of a fire field that covers an entire point, pulses every couple of seconds applying burning, and has a 7 second cooldown.

I’m thinking of a fast autoattack that cleaves and applies 8 second base duration bleeds.

I’m thinking of a kit that can be used point blank and applies long duration bleeds, burns, chill, and poison.

I’m thinking that bouncing staff clones probably aren’t going to match up to the insane condition application sets that a lot of classes have.

IE working plus whatever condi buffs are coming to scepter will make our arguably strongest spec (condi PU) even stronger. Fine with me but does condi PU need help? The QQ will be intense. Of course that is what I’ll be running if this is fixed lol. IE won’t be fixed though

keenlam.4753:

Advent.6193:

• Disruptor’s is either: reworked to be worth a darn, or replaced
  .

Disruptor’s can be reworked to reset your heal on interrupt, would that make it worthwhile as grandmaster trait?

How about just heal you on interrupt? Anything less heal-y and id still never take.

Purr Kitten.8731:

Interesting thing happened:

Anet employee was running with us in wvw and on our ts. So I took the time as I always do when I see anet running in the group, to bemoan the state of the mesmer. What he said was interesting:

“It is a common misconception that the Mesmer is full of bugs. That is not actually true, a lot of these things work as intended.”

that is what he said. I have to admit I was a tad ticked. I do kind of with I had pressed the issue a bit, but I did not. Problem is not just the bugs but the massive constant nerfs to memser that bug me. But I just thought it was interesting.

Either way I still play Mesmer, find it a lot of fun. Frustrating, but still fun.

Are you kittening serious?! That’s kittening insane! Two possibilities: 1) Things are not working as intended at all and this idiot is a kittentard who doesn’t know what he’s talking about (how hard is it to get a job at a game company anyway? Being a scientist myself I can say from experience that just being able to code something doesn’t make you smart or really have that much ability to think clearly at all).

or 2) Things are working as intended, meaning Anet has absolutely no kittening clue what they are doing with the class if this is the intended kitten product of their work on it. Again my parenthetical remark above is relevant here.

That is hands down the most stunning thing I’ve ever heard regarding this company.

Menaka.5092:

phirefox.2568:

One Note Chord.5031:

Navi.7142:

The question is: Will they fix the existing bugs?

Of course not. They will, however, break iwarden further.

wait – is that even physically possible!?

It could start attacking you …

LOL very good one.

Ssenkra Bloodroot.1028:

1) Do you plan on keeping a block on the scepter?
It would really be disappointing to loose the block after you just finished adding torment to it. Mesmers would also loose the double block build, which will make the Retaliatory Shield trait a lot less useful.

2) Are you going to tweak Arcane Thievery along with Mimic?
If you only change Mimic it will become even less popular than it already is. Arcane Thievery already does what you want Mimic to do, with the added effect of transferring conditions as well.

3) Only “Offensive Mantras?”
The only offensive mantra that I know of is Mantra of Pain. Will you be looking at any of the other mantras? Personally I think Concentration and Resolve should be tweaked a bit. There’s not a lot of point in having 1 that cures conditions and 1 that breaks stuns, when the act of breaking a stun is curing a condition.

4) Lastly, will you be making any changes to “Maim the Disillusioned?”
For a grandmaster trait, the damage on it is pretty minimal. Even with a full condition build you’re only seeing about 300 damage. On top of that the damage ISN’T increased if your target is moving, which defeats the purpose of the trait using Torment. It might as well cause bleeding.

MoD is an offensive mantra, it dazes the opponent. What if they increase the daze duration, or maybe add a damage component, or increase the charges, or add confusion or something?!?!?!

Ya… none of that is going to happen, but I know I’m not the only one who thought it.

Ross Biddle.2367:

MSFone.3026:

Ross Biddle.2367:

MSFone.3026:

They just need to move it, either down a tier or somewhere in the illusions line. Yes this would be a huge buff; are we not in need of one?

Moving it down a tier and/or to another line either gimps current builds, or simply moves the problem from “4 in dueling” to “10 in something else”. Illusions for example might be great for shatter builds (to which there is only one viable shatter build) at the expense of virtually anything else you could imagine.

I think you’re exaggerating a little here: It certainly doesn’t kitten shatter, a current build, and it would make torment shatter builds viable, which many people would like. Moving it to illusions would be a buff to most condi builds imo and open up more condi diversity. It wouldn’t matter at all to phantasm builds either. Maybe it would be a nerf to some rarely used power builds. So no, moving it either down in dueling or to 4 or below in illusions would not only kitten current builds or simply move the problem.

You’ve missed the point though. No matter where DE is in the trait tree it has to be taken. Mesmers without clones on will (with DE) regardless of build are infinitely weaker, which is true only with the exception of a few nitch builds currently. If it were 10 deep in Illusions, then any build, or potential viable build that consists of all points in the first four lines (three of which have, generally speaking, most of our best traits we want access to) are suddenly short 10 already dedicated to Illusions, and thus are kitten from what they could have been.

The issue is the same. Build variety is shunted regardless of where DE sits, whether adapt, major, or grandmaster of any traitline because the trait is so crucial to Mesmers as a core mechanic. It makes or breaks mesmers power, survivability, and versatility.

Oh ah agreed. Yes no matter where it is it must be taken, moving it doesn’t solve that, I agree. I do think that moving it down makes it less of a pain, because then its 2 mandatory instead of 4. Yes this will hurt some builds, but will help more than it hurts imo and so increase build diversity. But ya it only quantitatively changes a perverse situation, not qualitatively fixes it.

Obviously what we’d all love is for them to make it baseline or buff our clone production by an equivalent amount and remove DE, so that mesmers wouldn’t have to trait our resource production just to have it at the minimum amount needed to perform.

Fay.2357:

Noah.9654:

So most of your argument hinges on the game being easy and full of bad players? If thats the case and Mesmers are still able to do well enough with skill, why buff them at all or fix any of their bugs? See how that isn’t a valid argument…at all?

No, my argument hinges on the fact that anecdotal evidence of ‘but I see mesmers kill people all the time’ means absolutely nothing. I could probably slaughter a zerg of 20 new uplevels in WvW by myself. Does that mean mesmers are overpowered? No. When I play tPvP, I can easily maintain my spot in the top 100/200 on the leaderboards, and I have ~80% winrate. Does that mean mesmers are overpowered? No. These are simply anecdotes that have absolutely 0 bearing on the actual state of a class. You don’t balance to any particular player, you balance to the overall average of a class. In order to gain a real look at how a class is, you need to look at the bigger picture.

Helseth is the only mesmer that still plays mesmer consistently at high level tPvP. This is the big picture, and it shows that mesmers are not truly viable.

Mesmers are no longer welcome in GvG or raid group comps if they aren’t running a veil-bot build. This means mesmers are not truly viable.

Mesmers, while still functional in PvE, have lost large amounts of their viability with the iWarden bugs and reflect nerfs. Everything in PvE is viable, but mesmers is becoming far less optimal.

But the aesthetics!!!! Honestly though the aesthetics actually do count for a lot with me lol.

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

MSFone.3026:

kitten that is a pretty kittenin baller build Warlord. 4/4/6 with focus… Wow i’m like really impressed, would you ever consider making your own vid? It would be super helpful.

Decoy Blink and MoD, no torch; I’m assuming zero condi cleanse because of the situation? Do you run that in general? How do you deal with condis?

Super good play, really fun to watch.

Ty for the kind words! I was going to start recording but school started so I don’t have a lot of time right now. The answer to condi classes is I switch my runes to hoelbrak and that’s enough usually. If it is a really condi heavy team ill run null field with hoelbrak or just lyssa runes. Usually they cant hit me though since I will dodge most of the dangerous skills such as impale, pin down, etc or just interrupt them haha.

That is some truly hard kitten. You sir, are a bad kitten . Thanks for the tips!

Swish.2463:

" For this update, we’re looking at improving "

Anet is taking a look.

this does not mean
“We have changed and it is implemented and working correctly already”

Looking means planning, no promises, to try some things.

some of those things may fall flat on their face or be broken or may not even make it at all.

“multiple”

Multiple – meaning any number greater than 1.

some of the new grandmaster traits and improved upon their original implementation

Some does not mean All. i’ll hedge my bets that Some means Disruptors Sustainment and the dueling waste of space trait. the others are not being touched.

I’ll also hedge my bets that there will only be 2 or 3 “changes” made that are not already listed above.

Anet doesn’t understand Mesmers and can’t fix them short of pulling the plug and recoding and redoing the entire class.

The above would require a lot of effort and money

its easier to let mesmers rot, a few players will leave but most will reroll and keep spending money/playing.

While your third to last paragraph is correct, cold beans taste great when you’re starving; I think even if they just managed to do a few minor but not totally useless (i.e. actual) buffs without any new nerfs/bugs many mesmers would be really happy.

kitten that is a pretty kittenin baller build Warlord. 4/4/6 with focus… Wow i’m like really impressed, would you ever consider making your own vid? It would be super helpful.

Decoy Blink and MoD, no torch; I’m assuming zero condi cleanse because of the situation? Do you run that in general? How do you deal with condis?

Super good play, really fun to watch.

Ross Biddle.2367:

MSFone.3026:

They just need to move it, either down a tier or somewhere in the illusions line. Yes this would be a huge buff; are we not in need of one?

Moving it down a tier and/or to another line either gimps current builds, or simply moves the problem from “4 in dueling” to “10 in something else”. Illusions for example might be great for shatter builds (to which there is only one viable shatter build) at the expense of virtually anything else you could imagine.

I think you’re exaggerating a little here: It certainly doesn’t kitten shatter, a current build, and it would make torment shatter builds viable, which many people would like. Moving it to illusions would be a buff to most condi builds imo and open up more condi diversity. It wouldn’t matter at all to phantasm builds either. Maybe it would be a nerf to some rarely used power builds. So no, moving it either down in dueling or to 4 or below in illusions would not only kitten current builds or simply move the problem.

phirefox.2568:

I understand buffing Scepter, but pushing it even more into the Condition Line? It’s not like it was that bad for Condition Builds before (one easily abuseable block on a short cooldown with pretty strong application of torment, and a channeled Spell for Confusion) – i really hoped they would do something to give it some Power-Up, to make it viable for Powerbuilds as well, but i guess we will see even More PU Condis with Scepter now (<sarcasm> thanks for buffing mesmer condis further, a-net ! </sarcasm>)

I agree, I like scepter in hybrid or power builds and am a little bummed to see the direct dmg part nerfed.

Overall of course I’m nervous given their track record, but it sounds like a lot of attempted buffs, which at least mean they are trying to head in the right direction. I really hope shatter gets a buff out of all this. I mean condi mesmer doesn’t really need help.

ODB.6891:

I am extremely reluctant to change traits/gear to overcome this as I chose this build for my enjoyment…and that is pretty much the point of playing…to enjoy. I would understand If the difficulty was damage being too low to clear content, or just an impractical build for the game mode, but illusions are a core functionality of the class…and I built around them!!! I keep signet of illusions slotted and the persisting images trait. With that much invested, they should not die this easily.

This just shows the failure of Anet to handle this class properly; remember all that “play how you want” and everyone can do everything? Well how the kitten does this square with that? Their lack of direction and attention to this class is kittening pathetic.

Edit: He’s not saying he’s dying he’s saying he plays phantasm. Ok yes you could say “Why should a phantasm build be allowed to just sit there with their phantasms out and kill stuff?” Because it’s living story, basically solo player content, and the whole point is to build how you want, and I think the point of his post isn’t to whine about how hard the content is, but to complain (legitimately imo) about how hard the aoe counters our core class mechanic in ways that only Rangers probably understand. It’s totally kittenin stupid.

They just need to move it, either down a tier or somewhere in the illusions line. Yes this would be a huge buff; are we not in need of one?

Best possible thing would be make it baseline, but as others have said I don’t see that happening (not like moving it is super likely either, but more likely at least imo).

Edit: Only real issue I see moving it is that you’d have shatter mesmers able to take IP, DE and PU, leading to a probably broken OP build. Personally I’d like to see DE moved to illusions and PU nerfed a little to compensate. Imagine the build diversity that would open up for us: Our core shatter traits (IP and DE) would be in one tree, and we could tweak and flesh out our shatter build in a number of different ways. It would allow for interrupt shatter builds, condition shatter builds, probably lots of creative builds making more serious use of our class mechanic. It’s stupid that most of the top builds for mesmers right now don’t really involve using our F1-F4 skills at all, I mean seriously doesn’t that indicate a problem?

Thanks for reply! Haven’t run shatter in a looong time, what are the current runes people are using?

And are you guys saying full glass or what kind of toughness? Not sure what people are doing with shatter in wvw these days.

What do you guys think the best build for me is if I’m roaming with my terrormancer friend? I run hybrid CI or PU depending on how I’m feeling, 0/6/6/2/0, but would totally go back to shatter if that would be more awesome in this setup.

Thanks for input!

Blades of Sabatine.5639:

After playing through the living works story and facing the last boss, I feel the state of mez is worse than we think and really need a serious do over. I mean a real do over if they continue with all the AOE damages they are adding to the game.

As much as i like the changes to boss fights and the new challenges they bring, as a mez and in my main build could not do it not because of the difficulty level, but could not keep my clones up, to the point died multiple times in my build before changing build gear and weapons to complete it.

I started with s/s and s/f. Clones could not get close and if they did, died fast. Eventually hand to change to s/p gs to finish it.

I don’t think am the only one that encounter this. This further emphasize the fact that we need serious looking into.

If the game development continues like this and no changes is give to use to counter the lose of our clones from AOE effects which in turn will lowers our damage capability then we are in for a very bumpy road ahead.

It’s tough because they would have to remove clone death traits, which a few popular builds rely on. They could just make clones immune to damage, since they are illusions anyway (they don’t really exist except in the opponents mind so how can they be blown up by a grenade?), but some compensation would have to be made for those on death traits. The on death traits are sweet because they actually punish players who run around mashing buttons and killing your clones.

For me, if they just made clones indestructible I think most people would take illusionary defense instead, which would make that trait probably OP.

Then there are phantasms, which also die fast in aoe like you describe. These things have to be killable because of phantasm builds. If Phants from zerker phantasm builds just ran around doing crazy damage ignoring AoE that would seem OP I think.

But you raise a really important issue, I just don’t have any idea what they should do about it.

Edit: What if they gave us a trait where clones deal direct damage on being killed, since conditions are kinda useless in pve? That way maybe it would be OK if your clones got killed by the boss, as it takes direct dmg when it happens? Wouldn’t be like a mind wrack, but maybe would help.

skcamow.3527:

I’m of the opinion MoD is strong as-is with the 5s internal CD. As it is, mesmer has full capabilities through a few different build setups to chain daze/stun/root opponents. MoD is a big part of that. An instant cast daze is incredibly strong. Any stronger and it’d be too powerful.

StickerHappy.8052:

Just make 3 charges by default for mantras, it would be a good buff then change Harmonious mantras to diff effect maybe reduce chanelling time by 1 sec.

I would agree to buff harmonious mantras by reducing the channel time along with providing the current 3 charges. I think 3 charges by default would be a bit too strong. My mantra ideas:

• Empowering Mantras: Increase to 5% damage for each readied mantra.
  More of a PvE change, but would help build diversity in that 1) only take a couple but still gain a nice 10% damage boost or 2) you can go full ham mantras for maximum damage.
• Harmonious Mantras: Decrease channeling time by one second. Gain fury for 5s after a successful mantra channel.
  This would be a great buff for mantra builds while providing mesmer with fury, something they do not have access to unless wielding staff or taking runes that provide it.
• Mantra Mastery: Reduced recharge on mantras. Mantras can be activated three times before needing channeled again.
  This would need moved back to the master tree. The recent move to adept to provide increased build diversity didn’t work because mantras inherently have short recharges, making the trait not worth taking. Adding the three charges along with the reduces recharge makes this trait a viable competitor to DE.
• Protected Mantras: Gain toughness and stability while channeling mantras.
  This is currently a master trait with only the toughness given (ridiculous considering what is competing for this trait). Add stability, maybe decrease the toughness a bit and move it back to Adept.
• Restorative Mantras: Leave as-is.

Make Mantra of Pain AoE by default. If this is too OP, reduce the damage a tad to balance out.

Further on MoD, I’ve stated this before but Imbued Diversion needs a buff to 1) Reduce recharge of Diversion by 20% and 2) Make MoD AoE.

Now all of our mantras are AoE capable by some means or another, greatly increasing build diversity and viability in all areas of the game.

I think considering that a small fraction of mesmers actually consider using mantras at all, and considering the sorry state of things for the class overall right now, making the 3 charges baseline would not be OP. Harmonious mantras could then increase charges to 4, or reduce initial charge time by 1 sec like you say.

I run with harmonious mantras right now, and it is not in any way OP, in fact I’m probably gimping myself taking it, but I love MoD and the extra charge is cool. Having it baseline would just mean more mesmer’s might actually consider using it. Even then many will not because they hate the charge up time, and so would still need to take a GM to make it worthwhile to them, or they just can’t give up anything on their utility bar.

This is a dirty, dirty job, but someone must do it, and as I like the mesmer community I will go ahead as a public service:

Clone Generation:
- 4 in dueling causes a clone to be generated on dodge; only spammable in so far as dodging is spammable.
-Various weapon skills produce clones, non of these skills are spammable as all have cd’s, the minimum of which you will see is treated staff phase retreat at about 5 sec, or if you let the mesmer sit back and auto attack you with scepter you will see a clone generated every third attack (but I’m sure you’re not talking about this, which never happens).
-Various weapon skills produce phantasms. These actually do damage and are on much longer cool downs, around 20 sec depending on traits. Again, not spammable.

Stealth: We have 4 possible means for stealth, and nobody takes all of them, so max you see three, but really only two have short enough cd’s and these are the ones you are seeing used in combat:
-Decoy, a utility skill with a 40 sec cd (34 traited) that puts the mesmer in stealth and produces a clone. Not spammable.
-Torch #1, puts mesmer in stealth, 30 sec cd (24 treated)
-Viel: utility that puts a line on the ground that stealths allies who walk through it, 90 sec cd. Need I say not spammable?
-Elite Skill mass invis: 1 3/4 sec cast time, 90 sec cd, stealth for 5 seconds. Easy counter here is to interrupt the giant cast with a huge purple glow. Not spammable.

So, all of this taken together does give mesmer steady clone generation if they trait for it, which most do, because clones/illusions are our resource/a primary part of our damage similar to adrenaline and life force.

I hope that clears it up a little for you.

Edit: Ah I see that many others have joined in here while I was typing this. I also see you are asking if this is good class design. Let me answer that for you: No, it is not. In fact what it is is a failed attempt to bring a unique and awesome class from GW1 and shoehorn it into some, shall we say less than optimally intelligent, person’s vision for class combat and balance in GW2. A class built around counter play, control, and punishing button spamming bad players (I assume this describes you) got replaced with a class that survives by producing ai pets to exploit a horrible targeting ui system in order to win. If you could hit a button and instantly target the last player that hurt you instead of the last enemy (ai or player), all mesmers would die quickly and nobody would cry.

Sethren.8472:

In perusing the Profession Balance forums, I have seen the Mesmer suggestions. Usually someone will immediately say the suggestion would be OP (I’ve been guilty of this as well). A thought occurred to me: have we become so conditioned over the last 2 years to expect inferior gameplay that we now consider anything that would bring us up to the level of the other classes automatically OP? It’s like we’re scared to be good. We want to be, but we’ve become hesitant about it due to being hit with the nerf hammer so many times. What do you all think?

On a side note: I’m waiting for the Mesmer Skillbar, but I’m considering joining the “reroll” crowd – as heartbreaking as it is to do so. I was playing an alt guardian last night, and I could murder stuff quickly. I didn’t have that feeling of being weak and impotent as a class. It was a painful moment of clarity. I don’t know if I will yet, but the consideration is on the table. How many of you are considering (or have done) the same?

Sadly I have considered going ele on and off recently. Haven’t actually done it yet, instead just taking a mild break and doing achievements, finishing personal story and stuff. But ya I think once I finish that and if Mesmer is still nerfed I’ll probably just quit rather than reroll.

Really we all know what is going to happen: We aren’t going to get any real buffs that we need, we are going to get some changes that don’t really change much, and some things will be “toned down.” It will be more of the same of the last two years. We all hope we are wrong, but we all know this is the case. Unless Anet hired some new people, why expect anything different from the geniuses who have done everything else?

I think the whole bouncing projectile thing needs to go, given how slow it is and how illusionary elasticity doesn’t work on illusions. If it’s going to be homing why not just have it hit instantly, like GS clones etc? For the “but no counter play!” crowd just put a big attack animation on it. It can take as long as you want to cast the attack, but once it does it hits unless dodged (no walking out of the way).

Not the first to suggest this, but skill bar coming up so what the heck:

-Remove useless retaliation part of attack
-Change slow stupid bouncing projectile to the instant downed state attack we have that damages and applies confusion instantly to target. Attack frequency remains the same. Each attack applies 5 stacks of confusion instead of 3, again the attack being the same one we use in downed state so no just sidestepping slow moving orbs. Only difference is 5 stacks instead of 1 and buffed direct damage component, and same attack frequency as before.

Dude OP get real, you think you shouldn’t be punished for mindlessly mashing your skills and missing? Cmon. Simple solution to your “nerf”: Don’t mash skills without make some effort to ensure they land, like ya know, setting up your burst. Crazy concept I know…

Really they should buff our interrupting capabilities over anything, that is the best way to get anything of GW1 mesmer back. And only the biggest morons would QQ about interrupt based skills because interrupts are the least face roll thing in the game, I’d say impossible to “spam.”

Fay.2357:

Replacing furious interruption:

Disruptors Alacrity

On interrupt, decrease the cooldown of the interrupting skill by 10(15?) seconds. This has no internal cooldown and can proc multiple times for aoe skills.

Alternatively:

On interrupt, decrease all cooldowns by 5 seconds. No internal cooldown.

What either of these traits would do is allow a skilled interrupt Mesmer to actually capitalize on interrupts by either applying higher pressure through overall skill usage, or by gaining the ability to churn out more interrupts rapidly. Particularly, these would allow interrupt mesmers to have a real role in group fights of any scale, as the aoe potential of things such as iWave and Chaos Storm could produce instant recharges in big fights, allowing for significant boost in strength.

Sweet idea. How would the this work with MoD, decrease the mantra recharge time or???

This is a great video, thanks for sharing. Loved it. Very curious as to your stats, you really don’t look glass from the video.

I don’t think more is the answer really, because as said we do have plenty, but they should really buff the ones we have. CS is an idiotic trait because long daze gets overwritten. Runes of mesmer are dumb.

-They should increase our daze duration from MoD by .5 sec at least, maybe .25 on diversion. At the minimum there should be a non-GM trait that does this.
-We should have stronger proc on interrupt traits. BI is good but doesn’t really punish the opponent directly just buffs the mesmer, CI could be better, Power Block…well whatever. We should have that warrior trait that applies confusion on interrupt, they should buff the damage of halting strike.
-Lower the cd on MoD.

SoD has a .25 sec cast time so it isn’t really for interrupting, its for a blanket lockout (3 sec stun) for control. Lowering CD only makes sense if you remove cast time and make it instant, which would be a great thing imo. So

-Lower CD of SoD, lower duration of stun and make instant, basically a signet alternative to MoD except with stun instead of daze. This would be a great change.

StickerHappy.8052:

@OP

At the confusion application part I agree with you.

Ill give you one example.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Distracting_Strikes

4 stacks every interrupt. 9 stacks with perplexity every ICD.

Shouldve been a mesmer trait IMO.

I didn’t even know that warrior trait existed… wtf that is an absurd kittenin trait why the kitten is that not a mesmer trait. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, if I were in charge of class balance at Anet I would want to kittening kill myself in shame. This is an embarrassment for warriors to have that trait and not mesmers.

LumAnth.5124:

- Illusionary Persona now shatters the Mesmer, causing them to go into the defeated state and bypass the downed state.

omfg lol, good one. Also Esplen had some good ones too. Very funny. The laughter of the kitten ed…

Let me try:

-Phase retreat now ports you to the nearest melee enemy instead of away.

-Illusionary leap now causes you to swap places with your clone and immobilize yourself.

-The downed state skill Deception now causes you to enter stealth and die. “We’ve received a lot of complaints about Deception not really fooling anyone, so we thought this was a great way to let Mesmer’s be masters of misdirection and respond to your feedback. Now when downed by an enemy Mesmers can kill themselves, misleading their foes who search in confusion for a downed Mesmer to stomp. Jokes on them; you’re already dead!”

This is a great idea, and honestly I’d be happy if i could just take another normal utility skill instead of my elite skill. I don’t even need buffed up versions, just let me take whatever I want in that fourth slot.

I guess this is probably a balance issue though, probably some kind of crazy builds possible or something. I still think they should do it though.

Would this be OP? After the nerf doesn’t seem that much worse than applying bleeds. Maybe only on third AA? I think it would definitely be fair if it applied confusion x2 on the third hit.

Fay.2357:

Sublimatio.6981:

illusionary elasticy should work for clones on staff too :/

As much as this bug should be fixed, I honestly dislike the builds that will come from it. Nobody likes builds that function purely through spamming one skill, so why would builds that function by producing 3(4) entities spamming one skill be any more interesting?

Also the QQ would dwarf any we have ever seen about the mesmer, and for once they’d be right. This would be totally OP combined with all the on death traits. Basically this would be a psycho buff to the build that is already the strongest 1vX build and the one that generates almost all the current QQ (condi PU).

I see phantasms as a crappy, yet better than nothing, replacement for all our mesmer specific hexes in GW1. The phantasm is a “condition,” in that we activate the skill, and the target suffered damage over time and sometimes other conditions (confusion, cripple).

This system is like I said a very crappy replacement, but it’s really not any different in the sense that the player has to take action if they want that dmg mitigated, i.e., kill the phantasm, which is the same as not casting during backfire in GW1, or removing the condition.

So no, I do not want phantasms turned into more bursty time skills. With a few buffs shatter will be back in a good place, and what you describe above is basically playing shatter (phantasm attacks once then is used as a resource). The phantasms staying alive allows for more attrition style play, if one wants.

The QQ over “ai” and “passive dmg” is the exact same QQ you hear from players about any strong attrition class that activates an ability and after the damage from that ability is applied over time rather than instantly, in any game, which in essence is what mesmer is with phantasms.

Yes I get what you’re saying, that in a perfect setup like that the skill works great. But most people here aren’t complaining about it not working on perfectly flat ground with an opponent standing still in front of you when you fire the skill.

What I’m saying is that even with a projectile being dodged sometimes that overall it would result in more frequent successful immobilizes than the current skill. It would be a tradeoff for more reliability.

I think many would agree that a skill that does really cool stuff sometimes but completely fails plenty of other times is not preferable to a skill that does less cool stuff but works every time exactly how you expect it to.

Like most of our class skills, sword 3 is a cool concept that Anet doesn’t have the ability or expertise to actually pull off correctly, for whatever reason, so a simpler skill that never fails to work as expected is the better option at this point.

Me Games Ma.8426:

Because I loved the Mesmer from Guild Wars 1 and still hope that we can be the interrupter again, even if I have to wait another two years.

me too

Curunen.8729:

The thing about being a projectile is for me not about how well it works – for sure it should work ok if like mirror blade.

No the problem is that it takes a skill that had the potential to be something with a little uniqueness, and turns it into a fairly dull copy of another skill on another weapon set. If the animation is done in a way that makes sword #3 feel unique, and not simply mirror blade 2.0 with the ability to port to your clone, then I’ll be more happy to accept it.

If Anet really have no clue – and I mean absolutely zero ideas into improving the leap/swap mechanic, then I will concede and accept more mundane alternatives, because a boring skill that functions 100% of the time is better than a unique skill that rarely works.

I hope though that they can fix and maintain some decent potential for deception with sword #3.

I absolutely agree with your sentiment, this is what I’ve been trying to say, thanks for saying it better. It’s just I am convinced that Anet doesn’t have a clue and will never be able and/or willing to improve the current mechanic into something that actually functions.

lazycalm.5186:

Runewolf.8456:

pretty easy to kill, just go for the one that isn’t standing still auto attacking you.

By the time you find the right one, you’re downed.
The deception is just too strong in this game. Mesmer was the easiest class I played in PvP, simply because you can do what you want to, most opponents will just be distracted with your clones, spending the she fight trying to target the real you.

Mesmers are a disease in PvP

It’s not that people get “distracted” by the clones, it’s that the mesmer stealths and the player keeps spamming skills which gets clones targeted and when the real mesmer comes back out of stealth the player starts spamming tab and cycling through the clones. If you fight a mesmer who doesn’t stealth you won’t have issues.

Honestly I hate that we (mesmers) are so reliant on stealth, as I hate the whole stealth mechanic. It’s just a target drop that abuses the crappy ui and targeting system in this game. For instance if there were a targeting function that allowed people to target nearest player enemy out of al enemies, or cycle through players while ignoring mobs, this wouldn’t happen. “Oh but that would nerf all us mesmers!” Yes it would, but that complaint proves my point that, like thieves, by being balanced around the use of stealth all we are doing is abusing crappy targeting system. Stealth should be removed from the game altogether, but that’s another discussion.

You are not distracted by clones, you are a spammer and the mesmer class all the way from GW1 was meant to punish players like you. We did it inGW1 with amazingly creative skills and abilities from a an infinitely superior dev team, we did it in GW2 with confusion builds before they nerfed after QQ from you, and now we just do it by spamming stealth and clones. Mesmers, though a crappy shadow of their former glory, are still the class that punishes spammy duffuses.

Me Games Ma.8426:

Hey everyone =) after one or two month of break I’m back to play gw2 with you
I must say that I’d dislike that change!

• a projectile is dodgeable! the best about the skill atm is that it will ALWAYS spawn a clone when you’re in range (wouldn’t spawn if projectile misses/you’re blinded/enemy blocks or dodges it)
• projectile needs LoS! =(
• projectile is better visible than something that looks exatly like you (this changes from enemy to enemy but i believe it is)

Why would this skill be op if it directly spawns a clone at our enemy? Here’s my explanation:
There are no visuals that would signal the burst of for example shatterbuilds! If the mez is fast enough he can just burst out of nothing. that’s op. (pls don’t come at me with “but thieves can backstab out of nothing too QQ”-.-)

~ Me Games Ma

This is exactly what happens in a GS shatter setup right now and for a lone time; it has been, it is and would be fine.

Thought I’d jump back in here:

Yes a projectile can be dodged, guess what so can the current sword three, you know like when they see the clone come running at them? Happens all the time. The thing about GS#2 is that it’s unblock able, so dodging will wreck a similar sword #3 just as much as it does now, and by spawning a clone right on the guy when it hits you’ll get an instant swap that will end up landing more often that the current one does.

I know there are all these neat unique features of the current bugged pos skill that make it feel all cool, but nobody can really argue that the current skill lands effectively more than GS#2. Yes the clone is always produced, but are you really using sword #3 for the clone? No, you are using it for the imob, which gets dodged plenty.

But someone above said something even better, just forget the swap part (which is just pointless overhead now after nerf) and make the skill just a ranged port like thief has. You port onto target with an immobilize and leave clone behind where you were. Think about it realistically, yes it won’t have all the bells and whistles that work out for you half the time, but statistically it will land the immob at least as often and probably more, so it won’t be a nerf.

Yes no LoS, but I think many would prefer a skill that actually worked when it’s supposed to to one with neat tricky features like can be used without LoS. Besides how cool is something that can be used without LoS, but doesn’t work half the time when you do have LoS?

Using PU doesn’t mean you suck, it probably means you like the mesmer class enough to hamstring yourself by playing it instead of a thief or other stronger class, but don’t want to hamstring yourself further by turning down the strongest trait we have for winning fights, if winning fights is what you want to do.

I understand not taking PU because you like the challenge of a weaker spec in pvp. That’s fine if that is what’s fun for you. But please remember, you are playing a magical class called mesmer in the fantasy online role playing game “Guild Wars 2;” no matter what class or spec you play, you are not in any way, shape or form, a bad kitten . So chill out when it comes to judging other players ok?

PU is the reason people think mesmers are OP when the reality is quite different outside of “duels”.

Well yes it would be a tradeoff, projectile that works in place of an in some ways more robust skill that often doesn’t. I don’t think the reflect thing will be a problem; what happens when someone reflects GS#2 or #3 of scepter auto attack? I think it works out fine.

The issue with spawning a clone up on a wall and then failing to port to it is a more serious issue. Not sure about that one.

Although I don’t know what realistic alternatives there are. Anet isn’t going to fix the pathing issue, so it’s pretty much fundamentally change the skill or leave it as is. If you’d rather have it as is, that is a fine and defensible point, I just don’t think it will ever work properly in that case.

Or they could just do something even simpler: Make it a standard gap closer where you leap forward and leave a clone in your place.