Guild Wars 2

Currently I hesitate to make any call whether Kralkatorrik has telepathy. But it’s a power that is certainly not unique among the Elder Dragons. I think you (Konig) are right in assuming that Kralk’s powers would more likely be a darker twisted form of some of Glint’s powers (but not all). And perhaps the Zephyrites are also a good clue to the extend of the powers that Glint embodies. How many of those powers are her own, or gifted by her master, is hard to say. But we know that when we fight Glint in GW1, she does use crystal powers.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Crystal_Bonds
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Crystal_Haze
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Crystal_Hibernation
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Jagged_Crystal_Skin

So I think you are correct Konig. Kralkatorrik probably uses a dark form of air magic (lightning for example) and (corrupted) crystals.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

As to the concept of ‘dragons are dark versions of the gods’ magic’ fails just as much as any other ‘Dragon=God’ theory. You work perfectly for Balthazar and Melandru, but try extending it to all gods of all generations.

You’re definitely lacking a Dwayna or Dhuum/Grenth, presuming you tie DSD to knowledge, Kralkatorrik to illusion (no real reason to believe either), and have Zhaitan and Jormag left.

Dhuum can’t fit Jormag, but neither can Dwayna.

You misunderstand me. I’m not saying they are direct mirrors of each other. I’m saying that all use some shared spheres of magic, but the dragons use darker versions of that same magic. Any sphere of magic that the gods use for good, the elder dragons can use for evil. That is why I think we see some similarities between magic of the gods and that of the Elder Dragons.

draxynnic.3719:

True, but necromancers had no resurrection magic in GW1 beyond the standard res sig (and PvE skills when they came in, like the Sunspear sig), and every necromancer skill that grants health is themed around taking life from somewhere else, be it a living enemy or exploiting a corpse. In some cases, with greater than 100% efficiency, but even those are rare.

Correct. And there’s also a theme in GW1’s necromancy, that everything comes at a price. This is perhaps best shown by GW1 skills such as Grenth’s Balance and Blood is Power (Or Blood Ritual for that matter). The necromancer makes a personal sacrifice (literally her own blood) to give energy/magic to her allies. GW2’s Well of Blood seems to just heal, without a price. But it could be argued that since it is called “of Blood”, that it some how utilizes spilled blood to heal allies.

draxynnic.3719:

Unless we take it all the way back to magic being a unified whole, and then one can make the same claim that, say, all necromancers, Your Demented Highness included, are the same as mesmers except that they use their powers a little differently.

Ladidadida! -Covers ears-

An envoy perhaps? Good call.

Yep, either ripping the models directly from memory, or by modeling them yourself. The latter I’ve done for some of the old GW1 Horrorween videos, and it’s quite a chore. I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone. Had to remodel the Mad King and an entire Bone Dragon just to make a short Halloween video. And had to make the textures by stitching screenshots together. That was before TexMod came along and made that a lot easier.

As a side note, all my work is none-commercial. I don’t make a penny from it, and it’s all just to promote the game and our lovely community. And I always mention it is for Guild Wars.

Posing a character you say? Oh if only that were possible. Sadly I have no knowledge of how to do that. Besides, if Gaile says it is not okay, then I suppose that’s that.

The Mursaat have wings, but they are just very powerful spell casters, and not gods. They got worshiped like gods by the White Mantle all the same though. It’s possible that beyond a certain amount of magic, it simply starts to alter the way people (people, in the broadest sense of the word) look. The Mursaat could also not be looked upon without suffering from spectral agony, but that was just some sort of magical effect that they produced. And it wasn’t exclusive to them either. Their jade constructs also produced spectral agony, yet they were not gods.

Gaile Gray.6029:

I liked the capes in Guild Wars, especially since the art and animation teams got such a fluid “flow” to the fabric. (Actually, other game designers asked how it was done, back in the day!)

I’d like to know how it was done as well. I always assumed there was some simple physics simulation behind the capes in GW1. But was it all just really clever animation?

Frozenwind brought forward the idea that the voice could also be a Forgotten. It’s possible that Ogden is protecting someone who chooses to hide from sight. Or it could be a lost member of the Brotherhood of the Dragon. Maybe someone presumed dead. Ogden himself wrote a premature eulogy for his king, King Jalis, but maybe Jalis is still alive.

Regarding Kralkatorrik, I think our best indication of his spheres of influence, is Glint. She can read minds, is made of crystal, and seems able to create a pocket dimension inside a grain of sand. This seems very much like the domain of illusions to me: Crystals, bending light, hiding things from sight.

As I mentioned in another topic, I think we shouldn’t look at the Elder Dragons as exact opposites of the gods. The gods after all have replaced one another multiple times, while the elder dragons seem rather static. Rather, I present an alternative view: They are simply dark versions of the same kinds of magic. They are the ways in which the same magic that the gods use, can be abused for foul intentions.

For example, Mordremoth and Melandru are not equals, but their spheres have some overlap. Mordremoth is plant life, but he is more like an invasive weed, life at the cost of other life. Where as Melandru is the diversity of all life. The positive side of the same sphere.

Similarly, Primordus is fire and destruction. Where as Balthazar is fire and the glory of battle. There is no glory in the destruction caused by Primordus. It is senseless and violent. Balthazar is the exact opposite side of how this sphere can be used for good. It is interesting to note that Balthazar’s brother Menzies, was also called the Lord of Destruction. Perhaps another example of the same sphere being used for evil.

So the Elder Dragons in my opinion are not the opposites of the gods, but an example of how the same magic can be corrupted, and used for foul things.

draxynnic.3719:

(Also, I think Mrs Thorn may be onto something there. It’s worth noting that Balthazar’s rival Menzies is known as the Lord of Destruction, which gives him similar aspects to Primordus, although Menzies’ minions are of course very different to Destroyers.)

I hadn’t thought of that yet, that is a very good point.

draxynnic.3719:

I’ve seen this interpretation taken in other settings, but I don’t think it’s the case in Guild Wars. Necromancy can be used to heal, although lorewise if not mechanically it usually does so by stealing life force from somewhere else. More powerful healing comes from different schools of magic, however.

Bare in mind that the big difference between Grenth and Dhuum, was that Grenth allowed resurrection. In other words, giving life back. So necromancy isn’t always about taking life from somewhere else. It is just as much about controlling life and death in general.

draxynnic.3719:

sigh
It frustrates me whenever I see someone defining a god as something that can just wave their hand and cause anything that opposes them to simply disappear, if they could be bothered to do so. That may be the modern concept of a god in a monotheistic religion, but such gods work poorly in fantasy settings, unless they are portrayed as being as effectively completely non-interventionist.

Well as I explained, in a world that has so much magic, you need to have higher standards when it comes to defining a god.

draxynnic.3719:

One of the characteristics of this constraint is that the gods often end up fighting primordial monsters that, while not considered to be gods, do represent a substantial threat to the gods. To give just one example, for instance, nobody thought less of Thor that he was destined to die fighting Jormungandr at Ragnarok.

These primordial monsters are however generally speaking, monsters that only the gods fight, and only the gods can kill. But with the Elder Dragons, we fight them as well, and we have even killed one (which as far as we know, means we’ve killed more Elder Dragons than the human gods).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

.Congratulations Thor, Zeus, Hades, Odin, and all the others out there. You’re not gods!

Like I said, in a world full of magic, your standards for defining a god need to be higher. Thorn, Zeus, Hades, Odin, they could all do things no living mortal could do on our world. But on Tyria, dozens of players can hurl lightning bolts, and raise armies of undead minions from the soil. You need a little bit more to claim someone is a god.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Who said they’re hiding?

Oh yeah, Gadd, who didn’t even know of the existence of the Elder Dragons.

The gods knew of the elder dragons, and conveniently left Tyria before they awakened. They basically left us to die. If WE know that the Elder Dragons have wiped out countless generations before them, then surely the gods know as well. What other excuse can there be? They went where the Elder Dragons wouldn’t be able to touch them, or feed on their magic.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

“The human gods still exist, and their power is still felt within Tyria. *However, they have pulled back into the mists, leaving the humans to stand (or fall) on their own merits. There has been a tendency for the human gods to, um, meddle with their worshippers a bit much, and in the wake of the final battle of Abaddon, they have been trying to cut back.

Yeah, and risk their creation being wiped out completely, just like nearly every race before us? I’m sorry, but that argument doesn’t fly. Not even when its Jeff saying it. It makes no sense. It sounds like a weak excuse.

A technical note though: A lot of the in-game models feature 2d planes, which are not suitable for printing. Generally speaking, a 3d printer needs a complete 3d mesh to work with. GW2 characters are made up of several loose parts: Head, torso, legs, feet, arms, and accessories. Even if you rip the models from the game, you still need to do a lot of welding, and modelling to make them into printable objects. Plus, any loose garments are just flat 2D surfaces with a double sided texture. You need something 3D in order to print it. So you’d probably have to extrude those 2D surfaces yourself, this is where the modeling comes in. There are also a lot of sub-sections of models that cut into one another. Obviously, if you want to print it, you can’t have this in your model. You can’t have intersecting meshes. Worse yet, if your character has transparent textures, this becomes a real problem. A transparent texture gives the illusion of depth, but to a 3D printer it is simply a solid plane. You’d probably have to manually model holes in the mesh, to make it 3D.

So all in all, it is still a lot of work. It’s not as simple as just ripping and printing. Sorry to shatter anyone’s dreams.

Considering the way Ogden acts so mysteriously about the voice, it might have been Ogden himself, or someone close to him.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

It is marvelous to see so many mesmers together in one thread.

So you only have one place to wipe out? :P

Laughs omniously

Haha, by all means, continue your little gathering, darlings.

It is marvelous to see so many mesmers together in one thread.

Usually when I think of a god, I think of a being that is immortal, timeless, outside time and space, probably not physical, and a power than can shape the world. I think that is a reasonable description of a god, and I also think it is important to differentiate between this, and just a very powerful being. Magic is quite common on Tyria, so lots of mortals are capable of doing astonishing things (like some of Queen Jennah’s mesmer parlor tricks for example). So on Tyria (a world full of miracles and magic), more so than on our own planet, a god must meet a lot more criteria to be worthy of that title.

The Elder Dragons seem to be more powerful than the human gods, since they went into hiding. Because of this, they don’t really seem gods in comparison to the power of the Elder Dragons. If they were truly gods, wouldn’t they simply be able to unmake the Elder Dragons? But it seems the human gods struggle just as much with the Elder Dragons, as any common race before them. The Elder Dragons are only considered worthy of worship by their evil minions, but we don’t consider them gods. Isn’t that a bit bizarre?

joe.7684:

It’s my impression that it does indeed stack with your existing magic find. For instance, my base MF is 106% (126% when I’m playing a character wearing a Syzygy necklace augmented with the magical infusion). My guild regularly provides MF boosts of an extra 10%, so that brings me to 136% when I go into the Silverwastes. When I get the maximum of 5 stacks of the boost, I’ve observed my MF go to 286%.

Interesting. The downside is that we never really know for sure if we can trust the hero panel. Sometimes it doesn’t show your correct MF, but according to Anet, this is just a display bug, and the player gets the full benefit of the MF none the less. And now it says that your total MF has been raised…. but is that number also factored into the actual MF calculation? I mean displaying it is nice, but does it also work that way?

That’s the problem with all this RNG, you just can’t tell if any of it is working as intended.

I’m willing to be a bit more positive than that Konig. It seems to me that after all the Scarlet business, the team has turned over a new leaf. They are dropping references to Glint and the White Mantle for a reason I think. I think it’s more than just name dropping. In the case of Vekk, Koss, Gadd and Nicholas, I think they just wanted to go with some characters that people would easily remember. But there are also less obvious references, that only veteran GW1 players will recognize. -Like the book No Moa!, which is pretty much about one of the first quests in pre-searing.

Tuomir.1830:

May have been, not must have been. I wouldn’t expect beings such as gods to follow normal biological rules on conceiving offspring.

Fair point, but it hard to say conclusively either way.

Tuomir.1830:

And while I don’t know what exactly he is, I’m pretty confident that Menzies is not a human.

We have very little information on Menzies. All we see of him, is his army. So I’m not ready to claim that either way. But what ever he is, Balthazar being his brother must be too.

Tuomir.1830:

Could be Balthazar and Menzies were demigods like Grenth was, but human? I find that exceedingly unlikely.

Depends on what you mean by demigod.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

There was even some recognition of some of Konig’s theories.

Wait, there was?

Well they mentioned some things that you’ve discussed on the forums. The library is pretty much an echo of our lore discussions, without explicitly confirming our ideas. While Frozenwind and I were going through the place, we repeatedly noticed books where we asked each other: “Wait, isn’t this something Konig discussed at great length?”

I wonder, has this update renewed your faith in the game’s writing? It definitely has for me. Lets hope they stay the course.

Good points Konig, great to have you weigh in on this matter. As a side note, did you notice how the devs referenced some of your theories in some of the books in the library?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And even if this is not true – which you have 0 evidence to argue against as even Gadd states “Did they bring humans to Tyria? I cannot argue against this. it is an ancient belief that has no proof to support or deny it.” – but how could he know this, exactly, given how little time he spent on the surface, and so much of it was focused on studying destroyers and bloodstones.

And even if his final words ring true – “They are what we would all become if given the amount of magical energy they possess and allowed to live as long as they appear to have.” – then where would they get the magic. Perhaps the world they came from rather than the Bloodstone.

Keep in mind that they have an innate, uncontrollable aura that blinds all who look upon them. Such magic does not seem to exist on Tyria, for even the Elder Dragons are not blinding when seen.

One thing to consider perhaps, is that we know Grenth at least usurped Dhuum, with the help of the reapers. And we know Kormir ascended from a mere mortal to a goddess. This is my primary reason for thinking that perhaps there’s some truth to Gadd’s ramblings, regardless of how arrogant we may think he is. This implies a process of beings rising up to become more powerful beings, who then become worshiped as gods.

The human gods must have been partially human, since Grenth is the child of a mortal sculptor and Dwayna (they have to be compatible to mate). And we are told that Grenth rose to godhood with the help of 7 heroes, who would become his reapers.
I have difficulty believing that Grenth is an exception, and that the other gods are simply gods. I think they were all lesser beings once, and I think Gadd is right to some extend. Arrogance aside. There’s a pattern here, or at least it seems to me that there is one. If one or even two gods ascended to godhood, is it such a leap to assume that perhaps they all did?

If the human gods did not create the bloodstone, is it such a leap to assume that perhaps the beings who did so, were at least as powerful, or more powerful as the human gods? I think our perception of the nature of the human gods may have been clouded by human myths and legends.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

No being can travel to the Mists without the aid of a higher being – be it god, avatar, or Spirit of the Wild.

This is not strictly true. The Fractals of the Mists show us that travel through the Mists is definitely possible through technology.

dsslive.8473:

But i do believe they were gods before arriving in Tyria. Traveling the mists isn’t an easy feat. In guild wars 1 we needed the gods help to enter the mists, in gw2 it’s certainly become easier , with the new knowledge of the mists and the technology, but what we learn from fractals of the mists is that we cannot control where we go. We ended up in spereate shards within the mists, without direction.

It may simply be a matter of knowledge, and not only power, as Lord Odran proved. It is also possible the human gods had help. It could have been the Seers that guided them through the mists to Tyria.

dsslive.8473:

The theory that the gods became gods by scavenging magical artifacts has a few holes in it though. The bloodstone was designed to seal all magic away, to force the Elder dragons into hibernation. If there were artifacts around that could grant a mortal the power to become a god, it would have been a target for the Elder dragon, and they wouldn’t have been forced into hibernation since there would have been powerful magic still in the world.

That is a good point. But it is possible that the Seers unlocked the power of the bloodstones for them, in order to give them the power to rebuild Tyria. In which case, it was definitely a gift from a more powerful race, and they weren’t as powerful as we thought.

dsslive.8473:

As such, if they came without their godly abilities they wouldn’t have been able to break the seal on the bloodstone and in turn let magic back into the world. They had to have been powerful beings already to accomplish that.

That is why it is also possible that they had help, from the ones who created the bloodstones in the first place.

But this does raise more questions by the way. If the human gods knew about the elder dragons, why did they bring the humans to this world in the first place, only to flee themselves years later?

Another thing, if Glint can read minds, that probably means Kralkatorrik can also read minds. Can all dragons read minds? We know Mordremoth influences the mind, and so does Jormag. It doesn’t seem like a huge leap to assume so.

What confuses me, is the point where the human gods arrive on Tyria. So we know that during the last rise of the dragons, Glint was freed by the Forgotten, and with her help they hid the other races (thus preventing them being wiped out completely).

We know Glint has a realm hidden inside a grain of sand, and since she is a crystal dragon, she probably has some of her former master’s powers. She can read minds, and she can possibly bend light (like a crystal) to hide things from sight. She probably was a normal dragon initially, before being corrupted by Kralkatorrik, and turned into her crystal form (which she retained, even after being freed).

So did they wait out the apocalypse, till the dragons were done feeding, and went back to sleep? Locking away the magic in the bloodstones may have sped this process up, and limited the destruction some what. Were the human gods brought in after the devastation from the last rise, to a destroyed Tyria? And were they brought in for a specific purpose? To rebuild, or to fight?

Tuomir.1830:

It’s also not particularly new information, it’s been in Arah explorable p4 since launch, as has been the status of Forgotten as one of the elder races.

Yes it is new information. There’s even more that contradicts the GW1 manuscripts now.

“It was almost three thousand years ago that a race of serpents stepped out of the Rift onto the soil of Tyria. Unlike ordinary serpents, these moved upright, used language, and adhered to an elaborate culture. They had been summoned by the old gods,
brought to this world to be the custodians. Their task: shepherd the other creatures of the land through this time of transition, while the gods continued to create the
world around them.”

We now know this is not true. They had not been simply summoned by the old gods. Unless they mean gods even older than the human gods, or that the Seers summoned them? We also know that the human gods did not create the world around them, Tyria was already there. But it is possible that in the wake of the last Dragons rise, that the world had been devastated. We do not know what the world was like when the human gods arrived. Possibly the human gods made the world livable again.

“The serpents never returned to the world of men, and slowly, their influence faded. To humans, they were just a part of the past, spoken about only in legends and myths.
Eventually their memory all but passed from human consciousness. But they were not gone, only forgotten. Despite the serpents’ retreat, the gods never halted their work creating the world, and with the benevolence of indulgent parents, they decided to create magic. It was to be a gift to all the intelligent creatures—meant to ease a life of toil and make survival a less arduous task. When they had finished creating their gift, they presented it to the humans and the Charr, the Tengu and the dwarves, the minotaurs and the imps, and all the races of the land. But the gods had not counted upon one thing—greed. "

We know this also isn’t true. The human gods didn’t create magic, nor did they create the bloodstones. And it wasn’t the gods who presented it to the races of Tyria, it was Abaddon who shared it (possibly against the will of the other gods). One thing is bit odd, how the gods took back the gift of magic when Doric pleaded with them, and then sealed it with his blood. If they took it back the way as we are told, did they at first agree with Abaddon to share it? Why didn’t they take it back right away? And did they really take it back themselves, or did they ask the Seers to take the gifts of magic back for them?

In light of all this, it feels as if the human gods were surrounded by beings far more godly than them. Which makes me speculate that the human gods were just powerful beings, not gods (I tend to agree with Gadd in that respect). They became more powerful during their stay on Tyria. Perhaps powerful enough that people started seeing them as gods, and would later attribute more to them than what really happened (such as the creation of the world).

Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324:

In my opinion, the stone was a gift sent to the Gods who helped, one way or another, to rescue the remaining races (Dwarves, Jotuns, Seers, Forgotten).

I share this opinion. It could have been a gift, or they simply took it for themselves. It is also possible that the human gods were brought to Tyria to help the races that were struggling. And quite possibly, they didn’t make humans, they simply came with the rest of their people (also humans, like them).

Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324:

The Seers made the magical stone, not the Forgotten.

Ah, right you are. I’m mixing them up. Let me correct that then.

dsslive.8473:

In every mention of the history of humanity and the gods they mention that the gods brought the humans to Tyria. Suggesting that they were already gods before setting food on tyria and arriving at Orr;

That is a very long time ago. Accounts from back then are heavily biased from a human perspective. The fact that the gods brought humans to Tyria does not make them gods. We travel through the mists all the time, yet we are not gods. The fact of the matter is, we simply do not know for sure. We don’t know what they are, nor what they were. We only know what people think they are.

Diovid.9506:

Mad Queen Malafide, where’s the proof? You’re creating a theory based on nothing. If you want to write fan fiction, you’re in the wrong subforum.

The library is literally filled with hints at all of these points. I’m simply trying to assemble them into a story that makes sense. There’s quite a difference between making an hypothesis (what we do here all the time) and writing fan fiction.

Our first hint is the statue of Abaddon, which shows him as a human. The fact that he has such a prominent statue in the Priory no less, and in perfect condition, tells you a few things: First of all, he wasn’t a monster, he was a man. Second, that most likely this statue was also made by Malchor. It shows him in a positive light, with a scroll, as a god of wisdom. He doesn’t look at all frightening to behold. Imposing perhaps, but not evil.

One of the books describes ancient serpentine civilizations BEFORE the human gods came to Tyria. This must refer to the Forgotten, and it mixes up Prophecies lore a bit. It means that the Forgotten were there long before the human gods, along with many other civilizations (which we already know from other sources).

Another book tells us that the Seers, and not the human gods, made the bloodstones, to hide magic from the dragons. We are also told that the gods took the bloodstones from Arah. Another book by Gadd tells us, that in his opinion the human gods may have just been really powerful beings, and that given enough magic and time, anyone could become like them. Now this is just Gadd’s opinion of course, and its very biased, but it makes sense. If the bloodstones contained all this magic, and the human gods took the stones, maybe that is how they became (like) gods in the first place. They may have just been really important individuals (rulers), who ascended to godhood.

So why did Abaddon bring the gift of magic to the world? If what the books hint at is true, and that the human gods simply plundered Arah for magical artefacts, then we are one step closer to understanding Abaddon’s motivation for sharing the gift of magic with others. And it possibly shines a bad light on the human gods.

I’ve always theorized that Abaddon, being the god of secrets, knew about the Elder Dragons. Now we know from Ogden that all of the gods definitely knew about the Elder Dragons, which is why they retreated from the world (and they left behind scrolls telling us about the dragons and their names). Now this doesn’t give us any insight in whether Abaddon’s decision to share magic had anything to do with the Elder Dragons. But it is not far fetched I think.

This might be a prop that should be hidden, and might be featured in future parts of the Living Story. I don’t think we were meant to see it just yet, or at all. It could also be placed there by accident, although that seems a bit unlikely.

NNYinsanenature.5684:

Yes it does apply to lost bandit chests.

I don’t think we actually know that. We know that normally Magic Find does not apply to chests, or drops from loot bags. But in this living story they’ve included a new buff that increases magic find for bandit chests specifically. It is however unclear if this stacks with your existing magic find. Its really all a bit inconsistent and confusing.

“Magic Find is both an account bonus and a character attribute that increases the chance to receive higher-quality loot from slain foes and from structured PvP reward track loot boxes. It does not affect any other containers (including champion loot bags), any chests, or any other source of loot.

There are two components of Magic Find: an account-wide bonus, which applies to all characters on the account, and a character-specific attribute. "

dsslive.8473:

ps: though then again, that may just be a complicated way of saying its a retcon and would add to the point you made that it was backed up by great writing, in which case, ignore me :p

It basically is, haha. It is a retcon, pure and simple. But a good one. They give a good explanation of why the humans perceived this to be the truth in GW1, and it explains that there is more to it than that. I can accept it, because not only do they just change the facts, but they also expand on it, and give a deeper understanding of what really happened. Retcons are annoying when they simply change the story retroactively, but when they add more lore, then they can also be a good thing. In the case of GW1 lore, a lot of it was probably terribly simplistic, and it wasn’t until later that they started adding more depth to the existing lore, and improving the story.
The books in the library suggest that the Forgotten used the bloodstones to lock away magic from the elder dragons, which is also new. It also suggests that the human gods plundered Arah, and used the Bloodstone to become powerful. This puts the human gods in a more negative light, which I think is really clever.

I think what they mean is The Thyria as more than just the world Tyria, and certainly not limited to just the continent.

Keep in mind that each dragon seems to represent TWO aspects, not one. And often one is a seemingly neutral aspect (fire, water, ice, shadow, plants, crystals) and one is a negative aspect (mind, destruction, death, corruption, temptation).

It seems like all of the Elder Dragons embody corrupted versions of magical aspects that could be good, in the hands of the gods. For example, Mordremoth is plants and the mind, but he is really an invasive weed (life at the cost of other life), and corruption of the mind. Where as Melandru is the exact opposite, diversity of life and freedom.

Kralkatorrik is crystals and lightning. But he corrupts (brands) with his crystals, turning everything into twisted branded creatures, and the lightning destroys and warps. Glint shows us what these aspects could have been had they been good: Wisdom and beauty.

Primordus is fire and destruction. But his fire leaves devastation in its wake, and there is no honor in his destruction, only anger and cruelty. Balthazar represents fire and the glory of battle. There is honor in the wars conducted in Balthazars name, and it isn’t simply destruction for the sake of destroying things. Two sides of a coin.

When Grenth rose to power, he borrowed water from the defeated Abaddon, but his aspect became ice instead. And he took the aspect of death from the defeated god Dhuum. Kormir would later receive order and truth, rather than secrets. We know Jormag embodies ice, but his ice corrupts and transforms creatures. We do not know what Bubbles does with water, but we can assume it isn’t good.

This is the important part VVV

But I don’t think we should see the Elder Dragons as exact opposites to the gods. What I think what we are seeing, is different ways to use the many aspects of magic. Good versus evil. The Elder Dragons embody all the bad and destructive things of magic, while the gods embody the good (mostly). There have of course also been bad gods, who used magic for evil too.

It is my belief that the human Gods were human, or some kind of humans. I believe that perhaps they were great human Kings and Queens, brought to Tyria by the Forgotten. The Forgotten were some of the only races who survived the onslaught of the last rise, but only barely. They went into hiding, and perhaps they brought the humans gods to Tyria through the mists. These human gods, or human rulers, plundered Arah for magical artifacts, taking the bloodstones, and using them to become incredibly powerful. The library tells us that the bloodstones had been created by the Seers (and not by the gods) to preserve magic, and keep it from the Elder Dragons.

The human gods may have started rebuilding the world that was left behind in the wake of the last rise. But Abaddon had other plans. He felt that their magic should be shared. According to sources in the Priory vault, the human gods knew of the Elder Dragons (they left behind scrolls that name the elder dragons), and so perhaps Abaddon was acting in the best interest of their survival. Maybe he wanted to share the gift of magic to prepare for the war to come. The statue in the library shows us Abaddon as a man wearing a mask, not a monster with 6 eyes. This must have been what he was like before the realm of torment twisted him into the creature we fight at the end of Nightfall. I like to think that there is a positive side to Abaddon, and that he really was the good guy. This puts the other human gods in the wrong, how ever benevolent and kind they may have been (and Grenth is arguably a better god of death than Dhuum, whom he replaced).

There’s some interesting lore regarding the Tengu as well, in the library. It suggests that the Tengu took to the sky. Or at least, it is implied. Do they hide a secret army among the clouds to this very day?

According to Ogden, the Brotherhood of the Dragon initially intended for Glint to become the one and only Elder Dragon. I’m not sure if this would create balance though. But Ogden also warns that we shouldn’t follow the Asura to much. In their attempt to explain the All, they’ve gone too far into the details, and actually strayed further from the truth. So we probably should not refer to it as the Eternal Alchemy. It is far more than that. It is the All.

Thank you so much for including the library. I was overjoyed to see so many nods to popular lore community discussions in there. There was even some recognition of some of Konig’s theories. So huge props for that. (In fact, shouldn’t Konig have an npc in that place? It wouldn’t be out of place.) I hope much of our lore community has picked up on how the devs have cleverly inserted various ongoing discussions into the various books (such as the nature of the human gods, the bloodstones, and the spheres of influence of the dragons). The library literally is an echo of the lore community, and it feels like a huge tribute.

I hope that in the future we get to explore more of the library, and that it is expanded on. Please make it accessible outside of the living story from now on, and please keep adding more GW1 lore. This is the first time GW2 actually felt like a sequel to GW1. I know this one chapter corrected a lot of wrongs of the past for both me and fellow players. It brought some of them back to the game. You are on the right path, don’t stray from it.

-A huge thanks from a very evil (and insane) Queen

JerryMain.4371:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The story was solid. I found myself able to forgive the whole bloodstones lore redcon, because it was properly explained in game for once.

Wait what do you mean by this, now I think I have missed something…

There’s a book in the library on the Bloodstones. It explains a lot about why the original Prophecies lore is wrong. It’s basically a retcon, but it is backed up by good writing.

Aedelric.1287:

The only thing which was not so great in the writing department was the inclusion of Marj and Kas in the Facet, seems like the only reason they were present was to spout exposition, which sort of detracted from the wonderment of the whole scene.

I disagree, I thought that was an excellent excuse to explain some stuff that was only in the books, or in GW1. It was important to get all of the information out of the way, so everyone is up to speed.

Regarding the mysterious voice that talks to the master of peace. It clearly isn’t Glint herself, because she has a high pitched feminine voice, plus she already died at that point. Me and King Frozenwind had quite a discussion about it. And we figured that the voice might be a dwarf (King Jalis, High Priest Alkar, Ogden himself) or one of the Forgotten.

I always considered the GWAMM title to be merely a sort of recognition for those GW1 players that have stuck to them game long enough to get it. It requires that you basically complete everything in the game, which is not something that happens over night. It is a title that people were meant to take very long to get. Now you could of course grind your way to the title in a much shorter period, that is probably not how it was intended, and you shouldn’t do that to yourself.

I’ll add another positive note to the mix, that hasn’t been brought up yet: the performance. The new zones run a lot better on my pc than anything before. Kudos to the art department for smoothing that out.

If you see me walking around with a GWAMM title, you can rest assured that I earned it legit. By playing since release, and doing everything in the game. But yes, I suppose there are plenty of players that got it the easy way.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Great thread. I’d like to know more about why people make the choices they do, and some provided that info. Overall, though, it’s really interesting to read the lists!

I hope you are not missing the most crucial point to learn from all of the replies here, darling:

The necromancer is at the bottom of nearly everyone’s list.

The library underneath the priory is of course a wealth of new information (and redcons). But one of the most important things I feel, was what the library had to say about the human gods. It implies something that we already suspected, that the human gods are not really gods, but just really powerful humans. It implies that they did bring humans to Tyria, and that they used the bloodstones to hide magic from the Elder Dragons. But it also implies that given enough power, any human could grow to their level of power and become a god (like Kormir).

The library also tells us that the gods definitely knew about the Elder Dragons, and possibly left, because their magic could be used to feed the dragons. This is yet another confirmation of a popular theory.

I also noticed a rather striking similarity between Abaddon’s proverb “Act with magic, act within reason, act without mercy”, and Ventari’s words: “Act with wisdom, but act”. Is there a connection here?

First of all, to quote Jurassic Park: “They should all be destroyed.”

But second, I think it just seems like most mesmers are nobility, due to the limited mesmer npc’s we’ve met. Bare in mind that in GW1 we had plenty of commoners that were also mesmers. Or Norgu who was a poet and play-writer. We had Charr Chaots, so even among charr is was but another profession.

Cormac.3871:

Kralkatorik: wind / chaos

Jormag: ice / war

Primordus: Fire / growth

Splashy (bubbles): water / life

These do not make sense.

Kralkatorrik is clearly crystal and chaos. Jormag is not really a personification of war. At least no more than the other elder dragons. We all know that Primordus is fire + destruction. His minions are called Destroyers after all, and his greatest former champion was The Great Destroyer. I don’t think life would fit Bubbles, or any elder dragon for that matter. The elder dragons are not about life, they are about destruction and corruption.

My first reaction was to the music. I just loved that war-preparation music as I entered the first story instance. And to be honest, though I can’t stand the twig, it was good to have Trahearne pop up again, and have pretty good dialogue with him. I liked the detail that a lot of npc’s respond to the fact that you arrive, and recognize you as the one who took down Zhaitan.

But the biggest thumbs up is for the library. That place is such a wealth of information, and I thoroughly enjoyed just this massive lore dump. Please keep doing this more often. I was excited to explore the secret floor, and there were just so many call backs to GW1, I loved it. I probably spent longer in the library than anywhere else, just reading each and every book, and examining every single artifact. I also like that giant tail of Zhaitan up there. It is good to have another confirmation that he is really dead, but also to see some follow up to his demise. I think a lot of us have been wondering what the Pact has been up to since Zhaitan’s defeat. And now we see them kicking into action, which is great. It makes logical sense that they would bring their airships to the fore front, and take action.

And the new explorable just really feels like it is at war, which is glorious. I love the wvw style mechanics (even though I never play wvw), and I like how alive it feels.

Glints Lair. That was amazing. Not only did it look amazing, but the mechanics were really good. It paid homage to the original trials from GW1, while updating it with new mechanics. This could simply be a permanent dungeon, if it were filled with more monsters.

The story was solid. I found myself able to forgive the whole bloodstones lore redcon, because it was properly explained in game for once. And it shone a new light on the human gods, and their involvement with Tyria. And I am excited that one of Glints eggs survived.

I really have nothing but positive feedback for this update. I just can’t think of anything negative…. at all.

I don’t see why people would have any trouble with this boss. The entire dungeon explains all of the mechanics to the player step by step. And then the final boss simply combines all of the mechanics that you have learned up to that point. I got it on my first attempt. Unless the boss some how bugged out, I don’t see what is so difficult about it.

If they want to balance the classes, all they need to do is start looking at classes other than guardian and warrior. And maybe change how overpowered boon stacking is, or how underpowered conditions are (in PVE).

SaintSnow.6593:

This is why I love necro. I can take the hate. Inb4 massive buff and necro new meta. Just you all wait…we shall have our day. Once they start throwing in those mobs and bosses that can only be harmed by condis we shall be called upon.

Yup. Last time it took them only 6 years to balance the mesmer for PVE. So I’m sure in about 4 years the necro should be just fine.

The first thing I thought when I switched from GW1 to GW2 was: Oh, we can jump now! That means I can take a vantage point with my ranged weapon…. and I was wrong. Monsters go invulnerable if they can’t reach you. Which defeats the purpose of having a ranged weapon to begin with. That is stupid. I think they should fix that first and fore most.

I like it, but replace that last line of the song with:

“And signet of vamp blows…”

Daozang.6408:

It was the Star Trek Next Generation episode, “Who watches the watchmen”.
And the moment I saw the wooden potatoes episode, I thought of the same thing!

Ah, so I was correct after all! Thanks!