Guild Wars 2

MyCondolences.8172:

actually that made me think, why is basilisk venom still an elite non that stun breakers work?

with a 1 second cast time and a warning on the thief buff bar also….. mentioned this in a different thread but the 1 second cast time and cooldown made sense when thieves could push out higher DPS (via mug crit and different ranges/values for HS), but an obvious 1.5 second stun is hardly worth the elite slot.

Please turn steal into this!

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arcane_Larceny
or this
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arcane_Thievery

Sanduskel.1850:

Spec D/D and don’t listen to the negative nancies. the class is great in wvw and going to get better in a week. if you rely on cheesy perma stealth builds too bad though.

…or swords, or vigor. You know, those other things I provided in a list directly from the balance patch preview notes. If you were low crit chance+low hit rate you’ll see a minor buff to initiative regen. If you were medium crit rate+medium hit rate, you’ll see a neutral effect, and high crit rate + high hit rates (S/P and P/P) will see a net loss. The other areas were straight up nerfs. Explain how things are going to get better in a week?

FeelsAlright.5860:

Maugetarr.6823:

This patch mainly has the effect of not being worth traiting over 15 points into acrobatics since QR is being rolled into our base initiative regen (best way of looking at the change imo; any other increase/reduction in effectiveness can then be looked at as the buff/nerf that it is)

I think i’ll still go 20 for pain response. There’s so many conditions.

That might help, but the problem is that after the initial clear, there are still so many that get constantly reapplied in this meta. I would rather take those points and put them into SA at this point as it has better condi removal and that extra 5 is going to get me Hidden Assassin (going from 0/30/20/20/0 to 0/30/25/15/0). Until they add some real condition removal to our other defensive line Shadows Embrace will remain our strongest condi removal.

WereDragon.6083:

Running a 100% evasion build as a thief is extremely easy, just cause they’re reducing this effectiveness a bit doesn’t mean the sky is falling.

Also, since when did Sword/X become the ONLY theif build?

They are nerfing vigor traits that are not S/X specific though. D/X and P/X will be affected by it more so than the high evasion S/X builds as they are using actual dodges and not weapon evades.

EpicSuperFail.9518:

Oh wow, why would you say that? What has happened since I’ve been gone!? I noticed that shortbow is now 900 range max for everything.

Tomorrows’ upcoming changes:

Passive regen boosted to 1 ini/sec vs .75 ini/sec (yay)
Opportunist nerfed (boo)
Vigorous Recovery nerfed (boo)
Quick Recovery nerfed (boo)
Bountiful Theft nerfed (boo)
Assassin’s Reward buffed, moved up to grandmaster trait (……yay?)
Hard to Catch moved to master trait (………)
Sword 2, added cast time on return (can no longer be used when stunned) (BOO)
Infusion of Shadow changed to only work upon entering stealth (no more chaining BPS) (needed-ish)

And those are just the (proposed) changes coming tomorrow…

It’s been a long 5 months…. Welcome back (?)

This patch mainly has the effect of not being worth traiting over 15 points into acrobatics since QR is being rolled into our base initiative regen (best way of looking at the change imo; any other increase/reduction in effectiveness can then be looked at as the buff/nerf that it is)

Zero Day.2594:

Maugetarr.6823:

What: Vigor Access
Why : Thieves dodge too much in addition to their myriad of other defensive boons.

:D wait till after tomorrow!

Oops, did I get to real on this one?

What: Vigor Access
Why : Thieves dodge too much in addition to their myriad of other defensive boons.

Messiah got it right. What I’m saying is that the thief is going to give up major sections of their build to basically be less effective than a guard. They aren’t bringing any unique aspect to their group by traiting this way, in fact they are giving up what makes them (fairly) unique by giving up shadowsteps, SR, blinding powder, etc. to bring weaker versions of weapon skills that other classes don’t even have to trait (as heavily) into. If you want utility/damaging venoms, you might as well bring a traited staff necro who would have constant AoE conditions which can be made unblockable and are ranged on a much shorter CD.

Meanwhile you really give up either your ability to spike a target or survive stepping into the fray to spike said target by trying to pick up the traits to make venoms useful.

Why would we want to go venomshare for this? If we really wanted to heal our team we could roll a guard, used 2 handed mastery and a staff and heal for at least 4500 health in a 600 radius ever 48 seconds and provide might just by using empower. I’m not going to invest multiple traits in multiple lines to become a weaker version of something that already exists and not even bring a unique aspect to it. Plus that’s going to severely limit my dps output without providing the same mechanics that a guard has to make up for lower damage output (such as high retal uptime and wide aoe attacks)

They need to reduce the cooldown to 20s across the board since they are applied across a number of strikes with a warning on our buff bar so they can be partially (or entirely) mitigated. If they become too powerful when traited, nerf the associated traits so venoms can stand on their own rather than having to trait heavily into multiple lines to bring them up to par with their current cooldown.

Maybe Basilisk venom can stay at 45seconds, but looking at it realistically, its a 1.5 second stun with a 1 second cast time and a warning on the buff bar. This may have been alright when it was unbreakable, mug could crit, and HS could deal more damage across larger spans, but in it’s current iteration its nothing special (certainly not worthy of an “elite” slot).

Did they even think about comparing this to, say, an untraited engi healing turret which has a larger radius, and provides regen until needed and then when used provides burst healing (2500 base), condition removal, and a 2 second water field (lets be honest, if you’re coordinated enough to hit more than 1 ally with venom share you could blast finish that water field at least twice instead) all on a 20 second CD. Not a single trait needed for at least the same effectiveness.

While we’re comparing benefits of traiting to help allies as well, lets look at eles soothing mist which is base 800 passive regen every 10 seconds (that’s 3600 health in the same timeframe) on a much larger radius on a minor adept trait.

This skill falls way short of the mark especially if I’m giving up survivability or dps to take it in such a niche build.

RedSpectrum.1975:

Imagi.4561:

A friend of mine, and one of the Thief community’s most passionate theorycrafters, says “Thank you for asking us for counters. You are better than most people.”

And indeed, thank you for being willing to learn. Most people come, complain, and leave.

I’m RedSpectrum.1975 and I approve this message

I also approve of this message, but I haven’t been playing shatter mes long enough to give you specific advice. Keep moving. Count to 3.5 and dodge if you have DE. Try playing thief in spvp to learn the setup. You’ll get there.

Better, but I’ll still complain because mesmers have a sudo-stunbreak (same as sword) traitable to 6 seconds on staff and an actual (un-noted in tooltip) stunbreak on their sword traitable to 7.7ish seconds. They should just reduce the return range to match the mesmer ranges. I don’t want nerfs to mesmers, but I would like some consistency.

Asomal.6453:

ronpierce.2760:

Asomal.6453:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Well, Skelk Venom will actually be much stronger than we first thought. Also, with the changes they made to the necro signet, thieves are only getting the second worst heal skill instead of the worst.

Are you implying that the necro signet is the worst skill? Lol
It’s probably the second stronger if the mesmer signet is per second

The necro heal is TERRIBLE, are you kidding? did you even watch the preview? It WAS okay and they totally kittened it internally. Did you see the about 4 seconds they stayed on Necro and how unenthused they were when they healed themselves for like 5k with a 35 sec cd. >_>:

Are you talking about the livestream? I didn’t see it. Do you have the link please?

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/c/3352860

Heal previews start at about 34:15.

Sanduskel.1850:

Geiir.7603:

Yeah, burnfall again….

They’re working on nerfing the perma stealth. ANet said that they think it’s wrong use of abilities, so they’re going to nerf certain traits and change the initiative regeneration so that it will be impossible to do it using only weapons. They find it ok to perma stealth for longer periods of time if this requires you to sacrifice traits and utility skills to do so. And I agree with them. D/P needed a nerf, and now they get it.

They’re also ruining sword. The only reason for most people to play it was the fact that they could teleport a lot. From 10th of december you’ll see thieves using Infiltrator’s Strike – getting stun-locked and unable to use Shadow Return. In other words, they’ll appear and be insta-killed. W2G ANet.

I disagree that they are ruining sword. They are opening other options now. Thieves who get insta killed are glass cannon specced and may need to put some effort into survivability, just as other classes must do.

How does nerfing a skill open up other options? It doesn’t expand the options, it forces you into a different spec an the other is now comparatively better without actually improving anything or making it better.

Alternatively, about the same backstab damage as Jorun once you factor in the crit damage. It’s a little squishier, but it’s what I’ve been using for a couple of months on my thief (since they nerfed LS utility). Fun and survivable. Pretty flexible.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYEQNAoYVlYmiOHfy4E/5Ey2jdqCJKOFOVS1pgrsKA-jACBYLERjkFQEBgUBCZZPFRjtMsIas6aYKXER1A-e

Excalibur.9748:

What: Sanduskel’s Thief
Why: Too stronk

What: The number of thieves that can be made on an account
Why: They make each other exponentially more powerful

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I have 2 Thieves, my main is level 80 (human male) and my 2nd is level 71 (human female). But…

Did I roll another Thief because I enjoyed the profession? No!
Did I roll another Thief because the profession is fun? No!

None of those are the reason other than a simple fact that I’m male who appreciate the exquisite design of female characters. In other words, aesthetic is the reason.

Aesthetics are why I rerolled from sylvari to asura.

I will murder your shins.

Or bite my ankles. lol

Asura is a fun race regardless of the profession. Warrior Asura (which I have) when performing the 100-blades reminds me of Yoda fighting Dooku.

My warrior is an asura also. Flips on axe autos and hammer burst? Yes please! Little balls of fury running around. I might be convinced to make a charr if you could make them a size in between the largest asura and smallest human (they walk so slowly once you’re in combat….). Asura thieves feel like they launch themselves into their attacks (FS animation is pretty cool).

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I have 2 Thieves, my main is level 80 (human male) and my 2nd is level 71 (human female). But…

Did I roll another Thief because I enjoyed the profession? No!
Did I roll another Thief because the profession is fun? No!

None of those are the reason other than a simple fact that I’m male who appreciate the exquisite design of female characters. In other words, aesthetic is the reason.

Aesthetics are why I rerolled from sylvari to asura.

I will murder your shins.

Sanduskel.1850:

So much pessimism. I think Anet knows what they are doing, lol.

Like with flamekissed armor and the original change of reveal from 3 to 4 seconds? Sometimes they are a little misguided in the direction they take aspects of the game in.

Maesk.8753:

Arganthium.5638:

It removes one on each ally (removes one condition for each ally). It’s badly worded.

Well that makes sense now.

Their attempt at giving us group utility.

Distaste.4801:

It’s an incredibly bad skill and if it makes it to live will only prove that the devs have no idea how to balance anything. If you look at the necromancer new heal it heals and deals damage passively even if only a small amount where skelk venom does nothing. On activation it heals the same amount as skelk venom, also does damage, and doesn’t have charges that get wasted. The marked target heals everyone that hits them, so a built in venom share without worrying about range. Then just to top it off the necro heal is on a 20s cd vs skelk venoms kitten in order for Skelk venom to begin to even compete with the necro’s new heal they need to get at least 3 traits(Leeching venoms, Venomous Aura, quick venom) and even then it’s still not as good. That of course assumes that the necro doesn’t pick up signet mastery that is nearly equal to quick venom and venomous strength combined.

I can see the necro vamp-retal-well tanks already…. Second coming of spiteful spirit

AlexEBT.7240:

Zero Day.2594:

Maugetarr.6823:

Cuteypie.7835:

I was hoping so much for a heal that would heal over time while evading incoming attacks. Preferably that would also let us maintain control over our character so we could still do damage :/ Instead we got the worst kitten ever. Im happy my mesmer almost is as complete as my thief now gearwise.

Something like flashing blades:

evade attacks for 2 or 3 seconds; damage people around you when you evade attacks (range 130). Gain health when you evade attacks.

(my mesmer is almost completely geared as well and I will probably use the new signet if these are accurate)

Except, we don’t get it but warriors do!

Ofc they get it because they’re warriors and not thieves, duh.

I just wish they would come to us and ask for some design ideas rather than coming and telling us how much they think they’ve buffed/nerfed us after the fact…

We do actually give some positive/balanced ideas on how thief gameplay could be improved…..

Cuteypie.7835:

I was hoping so much for a heal that would heal over time while evading incoming attacks. Preferably that would also let us maintain control over our character so we could still do damage :/ Instead we got the worst kitten ever. Im happy my mesmer almost is as complete as my thief now gearwise.

Something like flashing blades:

evade attacks for 2 or 3 seconds; damage people around you when you evade attacks (range 130). Gain health when you evade attacks.

(my mesmer is almost completely geared as well and I will probably use the new signet if these are accurate)

Excalibur.9748:

Cynz.9437:

still garbage (unless ridicilously high healing numbers) compared to HiS or withdraw

The numbers are so high it’s over 90!!!1!!! (if you hit all kittens)

Which is still less than getting hit once with the new warrior skill assuming equal scaling!!!!

bigrob.3510:

Hi All,

I am not an experienced thief by any means. However, I did just get my thief to 80 and am looking for a bit of advice. When I have asked elsewhere I get answer like “Delete your thief and make a warrior”. That is just not helpful. So I thought I would try here

I have been running a 20/30/20/0/0 build. I chose this build because I like to play with diversity. If I feel like running D/D this build will work. If I want to run S/P or P/P or whatever, I can adjust traits without having to respec. I use mostly assassin weapons/armor with knights/zerker trinkets. I use Maint Oil and Prec/Crit Dmg food. Mainly its a crit build with options for different weapons.

I usually run with Signet of malice for P/P, S/P, S/D and Hide in Shadows for D/D or D/P. My elite is usually Dagger Storm however, in some WvW/PvP situations I have been using Basilisk Venom. For Utility I usually run Signet of Agility, Blinding Powder and Shadow Refuge. I don’t usually change this often but am not against changing them if given a good reason that will positively effect my play.

Mainly, what I am looking for here is some informed knowledge from some of you experienced thieves. Given my build and practices, I know I won’t be the best at anything. As long as I don’t suck that is ok with me. I don’t have to be top DPS.

My build can be viewed Here

So, is there anything glaringly wrong with my build or approach? Can I do anything to improve it and still be flexible with the weapons?

I have been running 0/30/20/20/0 with D/D + SB lately and I think the only thing I’ll change after the patch is changing 3 of my armor pieces (all PVT right now) to zerk and go to 0/30/25/15/0 since anything above feline grace won’t really be worth traiting into (was quick recovery but they pretty much added that into the passive initiative regen now). The rest of my gear is zerk + traveler runes. Utilities usually are shadowstep, blinding powder, and assassins signet.

Edit: I wouldn’t recommend using assassins gear as there are a bunch of threads with numerical reasons not to. If you are used to running D/D, my build is fun:

My current build:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYEQNAoYVlYmiOHfy4E/5Ey2jdqC5JOFOVS1pgrsKA-jACBYLERjkFQEBgUBCZZPFRjtMsIas6aYKXER1A-e

Expected build after patch: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYEQNAoYVlYmiOHfy4E/5Ey2jdqC5JeGOVS1fgrA-jQCBYLERjkFQEBgUBCZJPKrZPCilhFRjVXDT5iIqGA-e

(note that practiced tolerance is going to be getting a slight boost based on the patch notes preview)

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Excalibur.9748:

It was kitten on purpose to show that even the worst class can get carried in the new fractals. He didn’t even have any underwater weapons or skills IIRC.

Who are we kidding here, devs don’t play thieves.

That’s the word I was looking for. lol

>.>

I was looking for alternatives rather than showcasing a player being carried through the fractals. If it were planned you think they’d want to showcase how lesser used builds can fill a niche role in fractal group: i.e. show off the venomshare build they keep pushing.

After showing the fractured preview to someone, I was wondering if anyone else got the feeling that the dev playing it had a practical joke played on him.

*Up until they started the fractal, he was in a transform which didn’t allow him to see any of his utilities/weapons.

*When he did get to see his abilities/weapons, he had SoS, Scorpion wire, and RfI, all of which are useless in terms of group utility.

*He did not use his RfI in the appropriate situations.

*He had just enough agony resistance to survive a single stack of agony

*He had celestial gear that was incomplete

*He had no weapon swap

*He got an achievement for a (single) combo kill which would not have been his first if they were play-testing regularly with those characters.

I just seems that either he had a practical joke played on him where someone else created his build. An alternative is that he got in a heated discussion before the fractal where he said something to the effect that thieves inherently bring high dps and are good at the trap parts of the dungeon and someone said if it’s so easy why don’t you do it. The discussion in minute 18 of the twitch video makes me think the latter was the case. The third option is that he accidentally chose a test bed thief there they were looking into improvements that could be made to lesser used/useful skills.

In any case, if you watched it before with a permanent facepalm (like I did), watch it again with the assumption that someone else created his build thinking it would be funny and it suddenly makes sense.

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/c/3299578

Thoughts?

stof.9341:

Looks like a 45 second CD instant cast venom according to datamining :

http://www.gw2db.com/skills/23539-skelk-venom

(If true/unchanged) An active version of SoM on a long CD?

Zero Day.2594:

Maugetarr.6823:

Zero Day.2594:

Imagi.4561:

Zero Day.2594:

guys! guys!
It’s all good.
We’re getting a new heal move.
Everyone relax.

And it’s another venom! Oh, praise the Six Gods, for we are saved.

Didya see what the warrior gets?

Sarcastically or did they already post some of the heals?

Yeah and no, it’s datamined, but looks accurate (warrior – op).
Another funny thing is…

Guardian
-Litany of Wrath: Meditation. Heal yourself. For a brief time, you heal each time you strike an enemy, based on a percentage of damage dealt.

VS

Thief
-Skelk Venom: Venom. Your next few attacks heal you.

So, guardian heals and leeches, thieves just leech…. nice.

:/

Well, after reading through some of the dev posts I don’t think this will shake up the thief heals nearly as much as expected (if true).

Aside: What’s with pushing venoms/venomous aura so hard lately? I mean in a vacuum they’re alright, but compared to something like mantras (group stability, group condi cleanse, group heal) there would never be a reason to take a venom share support thief over a mantra mesmer or shout warrior (if you’re looking for a support person).

Back to the healing topic: This would have to be insanely powerful or on short CD to make me take it over withdraw. And if they nerf withdraw to push it (general trend of thief balance) I would go back to HiS before I took this as it provides powerful tools both offensively and defensively.

Zero Day.2594:

Imagi.4561:

Zero Day.2594:

guys! guys!
It’s all good.
We’re getting a new heal move.
Everyone relax.

And it’s another venom! Oh, praise the Six Gods, for we are saved.

Didya see what the warrior gets?

Sarcastically or did they already post some of the heals?

Well, I just wanted to add in wvw I have dueled 3 different PU mesmers. As a D/D thief, 2 of them were fairly easy to beat, while the 3rd I couldn’t touch. I don’t remember the eeapon combos of the first 2, but the third ran scepter/torch + sword/pistol so when he didn’t have a stealth up, he had a block or blur ready, and during the entire fight I think I only managed to land 1 backstab (around 4k). PU mesmers’ abilities still depend a fair amount on their skill levels when fighting us. I use both blind and condition removal in stealth, so CnD on the dangerous phantasms will both destroy their DPS output while (possibly) causing them to blow CDs. Possibly the most effective way to fight them is to show restraint. You don’t always have to hit with a BS, sometimes it’s better to wait out the block/chaos armor and CnD again. I save the burst till the end when I’m fairly sure it will kill them during the reveal duration. Remember that PU mesmers are fairly resistant to shattering their clones/phantasms, so use that against them.

Imagi.4561:

I feel like 35% was a good improvement to make it worth the master slot. It’s not worth 30 trait points sunk into Acrobatics, especially since post-move there will be nothing I’d want in the master tier.

Pretty much this. Especially when you’re going to have to sink at least an additional 10 points into SA because acrobatics doesn’t have comparable condition removal.

Tired if all the splitting. SPvP already feels like intro to guild wars with its lack of customization. Armor and weapons have no stats which are virtually set by the amulet you choose, and its missing a fair amount of the sigils/runes that can’t be “balanced”. I like the mmo side where you can spend hours tweaking your build with certain changes to armor to get that statline you want. I can’t speak for everyone, but the reason I hardly go to PvP anymore is that they split too many things. When they allow an actual system for pve-pvp, that’s what I’ll probably go to instead of roaming.

Tl; Dr: Splitting and nerfing is the reason I don’t go to PvP anymore. This will be more of a reason not to.

Seay.6190:

Ok here’s the conclusion… Old days: Thief was extremely good because the burst capability in the hands of fast players just simply rocked! It was the whole point of thief.
The recent past: Everyone cried about this capability of the thief but no one actually acknowledged the fact that when the thief was pinned hes was down in 2 warrior hits, or 4-5 necro condis… Nowadays: The thief is a slum profession which cant tank, cant burst, and cant contribute in teamfights…

If the thief was so OP then drop it’s hp to 12k just like the elementalist but dont make him suffer by taking away the ONLY thing that actually made the thief an assassin; his DPS. The good thief players I see nowadays use up 2-3 utilities combined with the ulti (basi) and spam all the initiative to get an average opponent to 40% health and pray for crits all the way… If the enemy survives (which they always do now) they try to evade, heal and wait for initiative so maybe and just maybe they could pray to get another lucky shot… while the warrior just uses his regular routine cycle to get most people down without any skill… Totally absurd stuff Anet has going on in their balancing discussions…

Thief, ele, and guard all have the lowest tier health already (10.8k).

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Whether they buff or nerf P/P I will still use it because there’s no other ranged weapon alternative.

No! Shortbow sucks IMO. I hate that weapon with a passion.

Difference is SB is a utility weapon and P/P is (supposed to be) a damage weapon.

Meh, SB could have been a damage weapon if not for the horrible attack speed of skill #1. Also the fact that they’ve remove the homing ability of skill #1 just killed this weapon for me. Now your target will simply strafe back and forth and you’ll never gonna hit them because your attack speed is slow and your arrow’s flight speed is also slow. Everything else is dodgeable.

They need to buff the arrow flight speed by 30% on oll the SB skills like they did to ranger and warrior bows

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Whether they buff or nerf P/P I will still use it because there’s no other ranged weapon alternative.

No! Shortbow sucks IMO. I hate that weapon with a passion.

Difference is SB is a utility weapon and P/P is (supposed to be) a damage weapon.

8 seconds huh? That seems like the time for warrior burst skills to come off of cooldown and channel…. interesting…..

Sir Vincent III.1286:

In GW1, the E/A Burst build is viable only in one PvP format, that is Fort Aspenwood on Luxon side. I used to take out the 3 Kurzicks Guards in one swoop.

In GW2, I am yet to see an Elementalist take out a “heavy” as fast as a Thief.

It’s D/D ele instead of fresh air S/D. Maybe it’s not quite as fast as a thief (in some cases) but it is all AoE burst, so really 2 or 3 grouped targets can be taken down in about the same time frame as a glass thief, plus protection, stuns, knockdowns, blowouts, firefields, burning, bleeding, and immobilizes. Thief may eek out a win in terms of single target, but compare the overall utility of the 2.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Cynz.9437:

Big Tower.5423:

Travlane.5948:

Big Tower.5423:

Jumper.9482:

fodem.2713:

Auto attack only

Heavy armor > medium > light

Warrior is heavy, so it’s perfectly normal…

Now…. About skills…. No skill in the game could have more dmg than a backstab….

Thief is actually on the lower-end of the burst spectrum.

Well Jumper… Yes thats an fact for SPVP But soon as you think WvWvW It becomes competly diffrent a 0 30 30 10 0 spec can do Cloak->backstab->HS burst if he got bloodlust and guardkiller. and his foe is downed :P so they actually got very high burst for wvwvw together with quite good survablity. But yes for spvp they are very low on almost everything. XD

You probably think CND BS HS is really high dps right? its actually really low. what it IS though…..is high Dmg per hit but NOT high DPS.

Ok so lets look at why ok?

CnD- roughly 50% success rate
BS – Roughly 50% success rate
HS- roughly 60% success rate

between blinds – blocks – aegis – invuln – NPC mobs – dodges – etc etc these skills miss as much as they hit, even for experienced players i wouldnt give them much more that +10% average (yes there are some fights that are higher but OVERALL its bout here)

Now lets look at other factors that mitigate our DPS. or burst is ALL withing 130 range which means we need to be kitten ed close to lay it out. Not only that its all .5 second or more activation times plus another .5 to recast so about 1 second MINIMUM between hits at best scenario….. very much unlike whirl attack or 100 blades etc.

What else to mention….oh yeah the obvious…. STEALTH! all that time in stealth wandering around for positioning and setting up for that all too famous backstab. then theres the times we enter stealth and dont get the right positioning and have to reenter stealth to try again.

See….thething is…for thief to get good DPS or even good survivability….it has to be connected to “circumstantial” requisites and factors. Yes other classes have some too but none as specific as ours and also as double edged (taking damage in stealth but dealing 0 back). our overall DPS is very low compared to most classes. and our burst is too….too much prereq for it to be solid burst.

These precents are competly wrong and out of the blue you wont see it comin before you’re dead ever heard of precast + steal? 50 % 40 % 60 &%? id rather say somthing like 95 % by a good player. And when it comes for substained dps AA fills that gap and makes D/D highest single target wep in the game.

btw STEAL, and that our damage is wrong is completly lack of knowledge dude we got HIGEHST single target damage in the game when buffed and we got very quick attacks in our burst so makes for good burst in wvwvw. around 1 second burst

the problem is you assume that that good player is fighting noobs, where good players in fact can completely shut down good thief…

That’s a load of cowpie. The only Thief getting “completely shutdown” is a bad Thief, not a good one.

also, as for dmg, warriors would like to talk to you
yes their high dmging abilities might be good telegraphed, but if they wasted it they still get to keep resources + CD is very low while for a thief if CnD for example missed, you lost 6 ini…. no gain back, nothing

Backstab would like to talk to you. Yes, their (thief) high damaging abilities (backstab) might be good telegraphed (stealth), but if they missed, they get to try again with zero resources cost + no CD…

eles are another example, they can burst someone down way faster than thieves actually

lol. Another cowpie. Please post an Elementalist build that “can burst someone down faster than thieves.”

if there would be way to make a chart with correlation of high risk and dmg, thieves would be really low on that chart due to way too high risk for decent dmg

The risk is significantly reduced when Thieves are played by good players. Unlike the other professions, good player or bad player, they are stuck in the same paradigm.

yes thief relies heavily on stealth and it is actually a bad thing, if stealth fails it is pretty much GG, where other classes still have multiple choices;

Oh please. Not every thief “relies heavily on stealth.” That’s so 2012. You need to get your Thieve-aptitude up to date.

if anet keeps nerfing stealth or any survivability thieves have, eventually thieves would have nothing to rely on

Good. Then the nerfing will end, right? Finally. When that day comes, we might see competent buffing.

A variety of bursts with pretty big numbers (for sPvP).

BobbyT.7192:

Kaon.7192:

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/c/3299578
Enjoy the many P/P deaths…

Hopefully this will signal the Devs to do something about it…

To be fair, all of those deaths that happen, had more to do with the player then the build. Like the first one, he could have easily gotten out of it if he used RFI. Another one he had his hero panel up lol, and the last molten boss fight, everyone was getting stomped so i wouldn’t count those as a notch against the set.

Although, all he was doing was a few dodges and pressing 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 1 1 1…….3 3 3 3.
Which is confirming my suspicion of unload spam being an acceptable play-style by the devs :\

I don’t think I saw a single other weapon skill used other than 1 and 3……

Love the comment at 18:27: well they are running this with 2 thieves so it does seem hard…

Kaon.7192:

Maugetarr.6823:

Razon.8153:

Hi, I turned into a casual player recently (played a lot during the summer) and melee obviously requires more skill than ranged, and I’m a bit rusty atm, so I’m thinking about going P/P, but I’m worried about people kicking me because I suck or something.

Are there any viable P/P builds that don’t suck?

Only time I think it’s been seen as acceptable in fractals is during the dredge boss whete you can headshot the heal (if your group messes up), spam 3 in between buckets, and spam 2 under buckets now to keep the boss there. You might just play lower levels until you get used to it again (especially with the change they are making to fractals soon).

Personally I wouldn’t kick you but “optimal/experienced groups” might.

No need for headshot even in this case since Basilisk can interrupt the heal through Defiance. =)

Yep, that works great as well! If the rest of the team accidentally reset the stack I’ll do that, but the cast + fly time of the shot can lead to significant healing. I’ll often tell groups to leave 1 stack of defiance to avoid mistakes, knock it off if we miss the drop, then headshot the heal. Basilisk is great in a pinch though.

Kaon.7192:

The dev in the livestream today was running P/P with no alternate set…
Let’s just say things didn’t work out well for him.

I’ll have to watch that when I get home tonight.

Burnfall.9573:

Maugetarr.6823:

Burnfall.9573:

In defense and support to Sanduskel, and to many sincere, honest and truth-bearing thieves, here and in gw2 reddit forums..

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/19bnb7/why_stealth_needs_a_nerf_in_world_vs_world/

and no! i’m not a troll either; look up my history.

…. from 9 months ago. …. when culling existed….. and before some of the abilities (i.e. caltrops) were nerfed. …. using conditions in a meta where most people were set up to counter burst……. before other classes were significantly buffed……. and the top comments are still l2p (coming from non-thieves)…..

Have you tried thief like we keep suggesting yet?

I would like too, someday but right now, ranger class is my heart; even though it is mercilessly being tortured in the hand of thieves and Arena.net.

This is what, why we were created for, right?

So i guess.. after the burial to my innocent ranger, i will be free to cross the other side.

Well reading through the thread that solecito linked, a number of people think ranger is already a strong competitor (depending on build) in 1v1 and is set to receive buffs this time around. Suggesting that you try a thief isn’t saying main it, but try it out because what seems OP to you now will be just smoke and mirrors after you learn first hand what a thief is doing.

(p.s. having alts will only strengthen your playing skills)

Burnfall.9573:

In defense and support to Sanduskel, and to many sincere, honest and truth-bearing thieves, here and in gw2 reddit forums..

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/19bnb7/why_stealth_needs_a_nerf_in_world_vs_world/

and no! i’m not a troll either; look up my history.

…. from 9 months ago. …. when culling existed….. and before some of the abilities (i.e. caltrops) were nerfed. …. using conditions in a meta where most people were set up to counter burst……. before other classes were significantly buffed……. and the top comments are still l2p (coming from non-thieves)…..

Have you tried thief like we keep suggesting yet?

Razon.8153:

Hi, I turned into a casual player recently (played a lot during the summer) and melee obviously requires more skill than ranged, and I’m a bit rusty atm, so I’m thinking about going P/P, but I’m worried about people kicking me because I suck or something.

Are there any viable P/P builds that don’t suck?

Only time I think it’s been seen as acceptable in fractals is during the dredge boss whete you can headshot the heal (if your group messes up), spam 3 in between buckets, and spam 2 under buckets now to keep the boss there. You might just play lower levels until you get used to it again (especially with the change they are making to fractals soon).

Personally I wouldn’t kick you but “optimal/experienced groups” might.

Domey.9804:

No dont move SA 5. Replace it with something useful like removes condi on stealh trait. So d/d can have 2ini + blind traits. D/d needs love. Even after next patch d/d will Not be as good as d/p but harder to play.

I mentioned putting 15 in its place then moving the intiative trait to 15, allowing D/D and D/P to both benefit.

Acrobatics Line (including proposed changes):

A I: Situationally very good

A II: Not bad. Other traits are better imo, but if A III gets nerfed too hard I might pick it up.

A III: Pretty good. Doesn’t need to be nerfed when you compare it with Mesmer D5, Guardian H5, and Elementalist A VI. To gain any sort of uptime on it you need to take withdraw and constantly use it. Even with 30% boon duration you’re only getting up to 10.4 seconds of vigor uptime (~66% if you use withdraw whenever possible, more if you trait SoM but then you lose the benefit of SoM).

A IV: Buffing this is not going to make me want to take it. Make it a flat 25% run speed boost so we can choose between good traits at the adept level. Or make it 25% runspeed for 1 dagger and an additional % runspeed for a second dagger. That would help the survivability of D/D and really help out in a game where permaswiftness and runes of the traveler exist.

AV: Traps need to be improved. Maybe they should work like walls/wards and affect everyone trying to cross them. That would instantly boost our group utility in WvW.

AVI: Situationally good. Could be merged with IV or be given the same suggestions as I gave IV.

AVII: Drastically underpowered when compared to it’s SA adept counterpart. Extend it to all conditions and remove the ICD. At best that would allow burst removal of 3 conditions and then leave us without any endurance (on a class that requires it to survive).

AVIII: Not bad I guess? Not great in this condi-spam meta.

AIX: This was the only reason I was 20 into Acrobatics instead of only 15. Nerfing it will just make me not want to go 20 into this line in it’s current state.

AX: If you buff it to healing me 150 per initiative spent, I still won’t take it. That will be 1500 health per 10 initiative which will take 10 seconds to regenerate. Comparatively, I can get better healing from the SA line and pick up excellent condi removal, initiative traits, or blind on stealth. I’d have to split my defensive trait lines to get that if I wanted to pick up this trait.

AXI: Making a bad trait easier to access doesn’t make me want to take it more. Make it vigor (or gain X endurance) on crit or something else that improves my active survivability and we’ll talk.

AXII: Alright in niche builds.

A5: Meh. I’m blowing my dodge for runspeed. Sets up bad habits.

A15: If I was held hostage by any 15 point trait (how they described opportunist) it’s this one. The other squishy classes get better endurance management on their adept tier. Really only is superior to permavigor when combined with vigor.

A25:Pretty good.