Guild Wars 2

Fade.7658:

Also notice that nothing changed, from the time that a Dev posted in the general forum about asking for suggestions. Why bother asking for suggestions if you are going to do what you want anyways?

NO! They took one of my ideas! Lotus poison ICD per target reduced to 15 seconds!!!! That’s HUGE. HUGE!!!!!!
(/sarcasm)

Looking through it a couple of other traits may also have received stealth buffs. Bountiful theft and sundering strikes were the two I noticed (possibly). I’m not sure if they did actually receive buffs as I didn’t take them before and I won’t take them now.

It will benefit P/D way more than P/P I think. With a power build, SB still gives you a bouncing auto (untraited), an aoe damage attack, a 3/4 second evade, aoe poison, aoe weakness, and a shadowstep for utility. It’s much less initiative intensive. P/P will still be initiative heavy to deal damage. P/D users will have a nice snare now to set up C&D much like S/D using IS.

Mathias.9657:

Zacchary.6183:

Mathias.9657:

Black Teagan.9215:

Sanduskel.1850:

Zacchary.6183:

Tarinis.6054:

Taking damage brought one out of stealth, unless vanish was just used. Here, we got thieves stealthing, then stealthing right after their first stealth runs out. I guess we all have to spend money to beat a class…

Thieves are squishy and have zero mitigation. Stealth does not make them invulnerable or immortal because they still take damage in stealth. If they didn’t have stealth, the class wouldn’t be able to survive and the profession would be completely useless.

If you think thieves have zero mitigation then you are doing something wrong.

Give us an example.

Black Powder (Avoidance)
Dodge x3 (if you aren’t deep 15 in acro you are also doing it wrong won’t get them)(Avoidance)
Pain Instinctual Response (Avoidance)
Evade from S/P 3 (Avoidance)
Evade from S/D 3 (Avoidance)+ the boon it steals (mitigation depending on boon stolen)
Shortbow 3 (Avoidance)
Teleports from sword 2 and shadowstep which also happen to remove 1 and 3x condi respectively (OMG some mitigation!)
Lyssa runes (not class specific therefore null) with bask venom (CC not mitigation)
All bundles stolen give some form of mitigation – blind,reflect,fear,boons (the only mitigation from stealing is Eat Egg, Drink and Consume Plasma)

We are just missing a reliable form of stability. (besides dagger storm trololo)

Just to be clear, anything that causes you to take less damage would be considered mitigation which includes stuns. So to say or think thief has zero is ridiculous because we have a ton.

Clearly trolling, right? Maybe you should look up the definition of mitigation. I even explained at the end of my post to be clear of what it meant. I mean really, high school drop outs trying to correct me… rofl.

Mitigate:1 : to cause to become less harsh or : mollify <aggressiveness may be mitigated or … channeled — Ashley Montagu> 2 a : to make less severe or painful

Avoidance: an act or practice of avoiding or withdrawing from something

(Since it defined it with itself)
Avoid: to keep away from : shun <have been avoiding me> b : to prevent the occurrence or effectiveness of <avoid further delays> c : to refrain from <avoid overeating> 4 archaic : to depart or withdraw from

Wow. The thief’s skill set almost exactly fits the definition of avoidance/to avoid while protection fits the definition of mitigation. Imagine that.

Terrahero.9358:

evilapprentice.6379:

“Sic em cannot be dodged” – I didn’t get a chance to watch the whole stream earlier (stopped after thief), and I just caught this watching the vid.

An unavoidable skill that locks a class mechanic…sigh Anet, just Sigh.

Stealth isnt your class mechanic.

Engineers have stealth, Mesmers have stealth, Rangers have stealth. Any smuck that happens across a smoke-field with a leap or blast has stealth.

Thief class mechanic is Intitiative.

And its not like you are suddenly the only one that has to deal with a counter. Example, i got an HgH Alchemy build. Its traitline is about boons and stacking boons, guess what, boons have a counter. Just like your stealth.

Ofcourse the counter to boons is far more abundant and far more severe. Rather then just, not being able to stealth for 4seconds (which is a reveal + 1sec) from 1 single ability on a long cooldown. I loose several cooldowns worth of stacking, across several cooldown cycles. To a spammable ability. Or one that cannot fail. Or even someone that picked up a certain sigil.

You have no right to complain. Its a joke that Stealth has gone so long without any counter as it is.

Stealth attacks however are a class mechanic… meaning stealth is integral to a thief class mechanic.

Incurafy.6329:

Maugetarr.6823:

Incurafy.6329:

Excalibur.9748:

i don’t know if i travelled back in time or anything because WARRIOR is out of control its all everyone plays in PvP because it’s god like and can destroy thieves with ease

With the amount of anti-stealth threads posted this week you’d think that we’d travelled back to September 2012, lol.

Well last month it was anti-evade spam. This month it’s anti-stealth. At least after today we can say “bring a ranger.” But really that’s going to just shift it back to complaining about evade spam or other classes saying they should have the same mechanic.

Hopefully we get some of these skills back to even the playing field:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Beguiling_Haze
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Assault_Enchantments
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shadow_Form
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shroud_of_Silence
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Temple_Strike
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Flashing_Blades
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Critical_Defenses

…but go ahead and tell me that thieves are OP because we can evade too much.

Oh man, FB + CD would = a flood of QQ to rival the mythical great flood, LOL.

I would love it, but sadly the Assassin profession is dead. It’s a shame that they couldn’t bring it back without the chain combos (would be too easy to screw up with the way combat works in GW2) and just not even bother giving Thieves high access to stealth.

Yep. Imagine being able to see us but 75% of your attacks miss… while we still can use all of our other attacks. No dodes slowing down DPS. No sitting in stealth waiting for condi clears and health. Continuous pressure.

Incurafy.6329:

Excalibur.9748:

i don’t know if i travelled back in time or anything because WARRIOR is out of control its all everyone plays in PvP because it’s god like and can destroy thieves with ease

With the amount of anti-stealth threads posted this week you’d think that we’d travelled back to September 2012, lol.

Well last month it was anti-evade spam. This month it’s anti-stealth. At least after today we can say “bring a ranger.” But really that’s going to just shift it back to complaining about evade spam or other classes saying they should have the same mechanic.

Hopefully we get some of these skills back to even the playing field:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Beguiling_Haze
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Assault_Enchantments
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shadow_Form
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shroud_of_Silence
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Temple_Strike
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Flashing_Blades
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Critical_Defenses

…but go ahead and tell me that thieves are OP because we can evade too much.

Ryan.8367:

Maugetarr.6823:

Ryan.8367:

Maugetarr.6823:

Ryan.8367:

vincecontix.1264:

Yea stealth fine, at higher skill lvl thief is kinda in the middle when it come to dueling 1v1 Mes, engi and wars is stronger atm rest is prob about even with thief (also depends on spec and build). Though thief is the best a killing noobs and less skilled players in 1vX situations. I agree that facing dp perma stealth is very annoying but its not op many other classes with stronger specs.

An obvious tip to beating dp is interupting hs through bp at the right time all classes have the ability to do that

I dunno, guess I hang out with good thieves, but then again I do roll with thieves like Triggerless who dominate alot of people in 1on1s regardless of class. The making it out like thief is bad in 1on1s doesn’t work, there’s a reason why a bunch of thieves are always at 1on1 duel clubs, they excel beyond other classes in 1on1s when played right. In large team play are they effective? Yes, you just need to know how to hit important targets and support teammates. Thief is absolutely fine, it’s when people make it out like it’s a bad class that you’ll only be able to kill bad people that annoys the kitten out of me because I’m good friends with VERY good thieves that DOMINATE in 1on1s. The class has the highest skill ceiling in the game, it’s not the class’s fault your bad at it.

You’re saying though that you want thief balance to be changed based on the very highest skill level. If all classes were balanced like this we would not be the only class looking at a shaving this balance patch. If your “VERY good [thief] friends that DOMINATE in 1on1’s” had mained a different class would they still dominate 1v1’s? And are you saying that VERY good players should not dominate in 1v1’s?

No, they don’t main other classes, but they play and enjoy other classes and learn them. I think that’s the point I was making. The thief class has a ceiling that, if you understand every aspect of the other class you can dominate with it in just about every scenario, not EVERY class is like that yet all I see in the forums is everybody crying about what they DON’T have. Thief is very good in 1o1’s right now when played right and a firm understanding of the other class. I wish every class was able to have this kind of ceiling but they don’t. I said thief was fine, so not sure where you’re getting ‘very good players should not dominate in 1v1s’. Kind of confused overall by your post in general really.

I’m getting at tour other suggestions really about how chill should affect thieves and how thier attacks should be limited in cases. Our skills already recharge in series rather than in parallel. Adding a component that would further slow this down would be crippling for the thief. What I was driving at is that you suggested changes based on who you play with.

“attacks should be limited in cases. "

CND’ing a pet you know can’t dodge isn’t a non-limitation of attack, it’s thieves abusing a broken pet AI system put in place by anet. In reality, anet is to blame on this one, it just so happens to make it easier for thieves. Like I said before, I shouldn’t be penalized in a fight if I know and can dodge the CND attack consistently , I’ve practice alot to learn how to dodge it , so when I see them spam it on my pet that they KNOW can’t dodge it , it ticks me off a little bit. I get penalized for knowing thief skills in this regard. I’m with you on chill , it would end up being pretty big nerf to thieves if some form of slowing of initiative regen.

Fair enough. I would rather see pets dodge at least as well as the bandits in queensdale or the practice bots in PvP than be given yet another boost to health.

Edit: although I would like to note I usually use CnD on the ranger itself for the damage to them. If they are good at dodging I hit them with a IS first.

Burnfall.9573:

Devon.9061:

Due to the lack of paragraphs and periods, you have lost my attention. So I shall leave you with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTSlULPN768

Devon,

I Appreciate your Honesty and your Boldness in exposing the Truth.

You realize this video is to show how useless HS spamming is right? I don’t think he downs a single guy without help from his team and you’ll notice the joke at the beginning that the most powerful tool in his kitten nal is back fighting because he spends most of the time on his back. He can’t even down an afk guy without help.

Ryan.8367:

Maugetarr.6823:

Ryan.8367:

vincecontix.1264:

Yea stealth fine, at higher skill lvl thief is kinda in the middle when it come to dueling 1v1 Mes, engi and wars is stronger atm rest is prob about even with thief (also depends on spec and build). Though thief is the best a killing noobs and less skilled players in 1vX situations. I agree that facing dp perma stealth is very annoying but its not op many other classes with stronger specs.

An obvious tip to beating dp is interupting hs through bp at the right time all classes have the ability to do that

I dunno, guess I hang out with good thieves, but then again I do roll with thieves like Triggerless who dominate alot of people in 1on1s regardless of class. The making it out like thief is bad in 1on1s doesn’t work, there’s a reason why a bunch of thieves are always at 1on1 duel clubs, they excel beyond other classes in 1on1s when played right. In large team play are they effective? Yes, you just need to know how to hit important targets and support teammates. Thief is absolutely fine, it’s when people make it out like it’s a bad class that you’ll only be able to kill bad people that annoys the kitten out of me because I’m good friends with VERY good thieves that DOMINATE in 1on1s. The class has the highest skill ceiling in the game, it’s not the class’s fault your bad at it.

You’re saying though that you want thief balance to be changed based on the very highest skill level. If all classes were balanced like this we would not be the only class looking at a shaving this balance patch. If your “VERY good [thief] friends that DOMINATE in 1on1’s” had mained a different class would they still dominate 1v1’s? And are you saying that VERY good players should not dominate in 1v1’s?

No, they don’t main other classes, but they play and enjoy other classes and learn them. I think that’s the point I was making. The thief class has a ceiling that, if you understand every aspect of the other class you can dominate with it in just about every scenario, not EVERY class is like that yet all I see in the forums is everybody crying about what they DON’T have. Thief is very good in 1o1’s right now when played right and a firm understanding of the other class. I wish every class was able to have this kind of ceiling but they don’t. I said thief was fine, so not sure where you’re getting ‘very good players should not dominate in 1v1s’. Kind of confused overall by your post in general really.

I’m getting at tour other suggestions really about how chill should affect thieves and how thier attacks should be limited in cases. Our skills already recharge in series rather than in parallel. Adding a component that would further slow this down would be crippling for the thief. What I was driving at is that you suggested changes based on who you play with.

Ryan.8367:

vincecontix.1264:

Yea stealth fine, at higher skill lvl thief is kinda in the middle when it come to dueling 1v1 Mes, engi and wars is stronger atm rest is prob about even with thief (also depends on spec and build). Though thief is the best a killing noobs and less skilled players in 1vX situations. I agree that facing dp perma stealth is very annoying but its not op many other classes with stronger specs.

An obvious tip to beating dp is interupting hs through bp at the right time all classes have the ability to do that

I dunno, guess I hang out with good thieves, but then again I do roll with thieves like Triggerless who dominate alot of people in 1on1s regardless of class. The making it out like thief is bad in 1on1s doesn’t work, there’s a reason why a bunch of thieves are always at 1on1 duel clubs, they excel beyond other classes in 1on1s when played right. In large team play are they effective? Yes, you just need to know how to hit important targets and support teammates. Thief is absolutely fine, it’s when people make it out like it’s a bad class that you’ll only be able to kill bad people that annoys the kitten out of me because I’m good friends with VERY good thieves that DOMINATE in 1on1s. The class has the highest skill ceiling in the game, it’s not the class’s fault your bad at it.

You’re saying though that you want thief balance to be changed based on the very highest skill level. If all classes were balanced like this we would not be the only class looking at a shaving this balance patch. If your “VERY good [thief] friends that DOMINATE in 1on1’s” had mained a different class would they still dominate 1v1’s? And are you saying that VERY good players should not dominate in 1v1’s?

I don’t expect to see heartseeker spam OP from a person who has been playing since day 1 of Guild Wars 1. Really I would like to see you walk up to a current warrior/guard/necro and heatseeker them to death. I actually have a very difficult time believing that someone with all classes at 80 doesn’t find us middle of the pack. Also I thought the current meta was evade spam which is why they’re shaving (nerfing) FS this patch. Had to double check the date on this multiple times to make sure it wasn’t from September 2012.

Agreed with evil. The solution will then be just to keep evading till you do hit. Right now the rollover forces you to make yourself vulnerable while using it or burn dodges till it rolls back. Evade spam for 3 initiative each time would garner far more complaints than the current iteration.

crouze.3078:

Olba.5376:

I don’t think that’s a good idea.

I mean, who would use it for 5 stacks anyway? That’s kitten weak compared to the benefits you can get from staying in stealth with points in Shadow Arts.

+5% damage for everyone who attacks the taget isn’t that bad. And when changing heartseeker to work with vulnerability stacks, it would give you a benefit for using more then only 1 of your skills.

The damage would not be done instant like with the current backstab.
You would have to build up for your good damage making it more interesting to play and others wouldn’t complain about getting to much damage with a single hit.

People will still complain. Right now one of the major complaints about thieves is that they have too much sustained damage coupled with evasion. All you’d do is change the complaint to too much sustained damage coupled with stealth (assuming the build was still strong enough to kill at least one person).

Incurafy.6329:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

i have reported it for months. they don’t seem to care. some of us don’t need to scrub it up with perma stealth builds. sorry if that angers you.

Now permastealth thieves can attack while maintaining stealth? I’ve gotta learn how to do this! Can you post a training video? Preferably on all five of your thief alts.

I feel like we should be adding /sarcasm tags, it seems to be going straight over his head, lol.

What?! Me?! Sarcastic?! Never!

Sanduskel.1850:

i have reported it for months. they don’t seem to care. some of us don’t need to scrub it up with perma stealth builds. sorry if that angers you.

Now permastealth thieves can attack while maintaining stealth? I’ve gotta learn how to do this! Can you post a training video? Preferably on all five of your thief alts.

I like the idea of making it just a flat condition removal. Assuming you had full endurance, you could burst remove 3 conditions. Even if you’re traited for vigor uptime with feline grace, you then remove 3 conditions in about 12 seconds which is slightly worse than shadow arts removal and definately worse than cleansing ire which is similarly placed in a defensive tree for warriors. You could combine it with SoA to gain a similar effect to the warrior signet except that you’d have to still blow 2 full bars of endurance over about 4 seconds (i.e. still not quite up to par with a single button press for warriors). It would be nice to have a condition removal that didn’t rely on stealth because if you kept reading the balance thread people are already asking for reveal mechanics for other classes. I’d like to be able to trait out of the SA tree if it’s going to become unreliable.

Don’t yes too hard. Believe it when you see it.

Without the ICD though, it would be on par with the shadow arts removal assuming you used a dodge every time you had one. It would be in a master postion too and might be on par with cleansing ire on warriors

I don’t think this would be overpowering. It would be on par with eles cleasing wave on dodge without the health gain.

Amadeus.7980:

Burnfall.9573:

As a Ranger, it’s always good to stop by to witness our Tryrant thief Outragous Powers.

Unfortunately,

my time is up;

to return to death valley to be merecissley killed by you.

Haha you just made my day! Laughed too hard xD

Mine too. Even our most underused builds are now outrageous. Someone will always complain about the thief no matter what, even on a relatively stealthless build.

evilapprentice.6379:

crouze.3078:

V Potent Poison
Increases poison duration by 33%.

I’d move this to a new category, “Useless” – I can’t imagine any spec where this would be worth it over every other trait option in the line at the same level.

VII Improvisation
Stealing recharges all skills of one type (venoms, signets, traps, tricks, or deceptions). Deal 10% more damage while wielding a bundle.
Idea: Stealing recharges all skills of one type one of your utility skills. Deal 10% 15% more damage while wielding a bundle.

The RNG kills this trait – you can’t bank on randomly getting a utility back IMO, so that isn’t a good fix. Ideally, I’d like something along the lines of “Stolen items are 20% more effective, deal 10% more damage when holding a stolen item”, but the first part of that is tough to implement – some stolen items do damage, some grant boons, some place an AoE field… if they could find a standardized way to implement that, I think improvisation would become a much more useful trait.

VII Ankle Shots
Critical hits with a pistol have a 60% chance to cripple foes for 3s. (Cooldown of 10 seconds).
Idea: Critical hits with a pistol have a 60% chance to cripple foes for 3s. 6s (Cooldown of 10 seconds).

Can’t judge this trait fairly IMO, as P/P is a broken set, and P/D doesn’t have much use for crit. Hard to tell how useful it really is until thieves have a functioning Pistol MH set that values crit.

X Patience
Regain initiative faster while in stealth. (1 after 3 seconds)
Idea: Regain initiative faster while in stealth. (1 3 after 3 seconds)

Another trait for the “Useless” bin – a long time ago, someone did the math, and patience is provably worse than infusion of shadow in 99% of situations. Your suggestion isn’t bad, but promotes sitting in stealth even more than SA does now, and I can’t say I’m a fan of that. I don’t have a good suggestion for it however.

IV Assassin’s Retreat
Gain swiftness when you kill an foe. This effect cannot occur more than once every 5 seconds.

Another useless trait. Needs to be completely redesigned.

VI Fleet of Foot
Dodging removes cripple and weakness from you. (10s cooldown)

Merge Fleet of foot and Quick recovery into a T2 trait – Lose 1 condition and gain 1 Init whenever you dodge, 5s ICD.

XI Hard to Catch
Shadowstep away and give swiftness (12s) when you are disabled (stun, daze, float, knock down, launch, knock back, sink, or fear). This effect cannot occur more than once every 30 seconds.

That useless bin keeps growing. Replace with “When disabled, cure’s all conditions,breaks stuns,grants 1s of evasion” with a reasonable CD (probably 60s). It is a T3 trait after all.

II Instinctual Response
Use feathers to blind and stealth when you take more than 10% of your health in a single strike. This effect can only trigger once every 60 seconds.

Reduce CD to 30s, or have it also cure cripple/immob/chill.

I like the idea of merging quick recovery and fleet of foot, however this condition removal would be sub-par with an ICD of 5 seconds, especially in the current condi spam. Without an ICD, you could only chain 3 dodges together without also using some sort of utility (signet of agility). So, at best with no ICD you’d remove 3 conditions and gain 3 initiative for a full bar of endurance. What if fleet just removed a condition on dodge, quick pockets granted 1 initiative on dodge and reduced weapon swap time to 5 seconds. Or perhaps we just move your combined one (no ICD still) to grandmaster tier and move hard to catch down to master with no changes made to it, putting it almost on par with some of the other classes “on cc” auto proc.

atreyu.9624:

Daendur.2357:

bb, enjoy your fotm class

Said the thief?

From the joker! Still don’t understand the animosity between (some) thieves and (some) warriors. The classes are almost on par with each other.

Since you guys are looking at Thief Pistols

For pistol mainhand in general would you consider the following:

Pistol 1:
Fires at a rate close to that of ranger shortbow. It’s relatively low damage and single target unless traited. It should apply vulnerability instead of bleed at a duration which yields 8 stacks from autoattacking without duration buffs (P/D users please keep reading before saying no).

Pistol 1 stealth attack:
Increase the bleed duration by 1-2 seconds.

Pistol 2:
Put poison on it at 5 seconds base. This would allow for another damaging condition for P/D users as well as the healing reduction it would grant P/P users in fights against high regen classes like rangers and warriors. For power builds traited at least 15 into DA, this would allow for weakness to also be included on the pistol mainhand. (lotus poison should also be reduced to 15 sec ICD per target so at 25 in DA you have a 33% uptime, but that’s a different topic)

P/P 3:
Reduce number of shots by 2 decreasing channel time accordingly. Increase the remaining shots’ power so that the skill maintains the same overall damage but gets slightly more bursty while being slightly less susceptible to retal.

Why I think the above would be a good idea:
Condition builds would get one additional damaging condition without having to bring spider venom. It would help with against bunkering classes that currently exist in either a power build or a condition build.
Autoattack would work with P/P while constantly applying a cover condition for P/D users. To make up for the loss of the number of bleeds, each bleed would last longer from sneak attack. Since P/P rarely utilizes this attack anyway it seems fine to move the condition damage to the build already using it. Best of all, when you run out of initiative from unload spamming you’re still increasing your (and your team’s) direct damage output

Knote.2904:

An option I’d really like to see is smart ground targeting when targeting areas that are out of range.

Like if I use a 900 range teleport, but I cast it at 1000 range, then it still casts at it’s maximum 900 range in the direction of where I tried to cast it. Instead, right now it just fails until you target within range, which usually means you’ll waste like 100 range.

This would be a huge QOL change.

+1

Please This

Wait….. is this really a serious thread? I thought it was a joke until people started responding seriously…..

Sceinna.3561:

Oh guys don’t be so naive.. stealth IS a problem in this game and it IS unbalanced.

Actually I’ve suggested that Shadow Refuge shouldn’t stack stealth and stealth in general shouldn’t stack higher than 3s (4s with trait), why do we need perma stealth?

Why do we need a tool to kitten out of a fight? 3s hidden, 3s revealed seems to be a perfect and fair balance to me. During combat this wouldn’t change ANYTHING, it just wouldn’t allow you to get a free out of jail card EVERY fight whenever you want.

It doesn’t matter though, as long as Perma Stealth is there I’ll keep abusing it and soloing keeps and towers all day long. Last matchup I’ve solo’d 10 keeps and atleast 50 towers. Since reset I’ve already solo’d two keeps.

Old video, I now solo keeps in under 5mins (before npcs respawn, p/d)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcDMubyiSac

D/P perma stealth/blind is broken and anyone denying it is.. seriously -_-"

I’m not a random troll that got killed by a nasty thief lately, I’ve actually never lost against another thief in a fair 1v1, I’m surely a top thief player in EU WvW scene without any doubt.

Youtube.com/oroneyishi and youtube.com/thecivilrebels or find me on youtube: Laela Blackbird

You’ll most likely find some D/P videos from ages ago but atleast they’ll prove my point about D/P.

Why aren’t people in your matchups sweeping towers and keeps after they take it? You can certainly annoy thieves enough to push them out if you’re looking for them (assuming you can’t kill them). Also the P/D spec (maybe not specifically the one you used to solo bay and garri, but similar) got a bunch if calls foe nerfs a qhile back to until thieves found something… different (not better, just fitting their playstyle? ). If D/P is changed along with S/D then P/D would probably become more popular again and be on the receiving end of the thief hate. Just something to think about. We will probably always be complained about because we are annoying even if we’re not dangerous.

Anyone else remember the days when we were being told (by people who didn’t play thief) that we were playing our class wrong? We were supposed to play an evasive build. Now that the meta has shifted to an evasive build that needs to be nerfed, but stealth also still needs to be nerfed even though only noobs and unskilled thieves use it (by popular misconception). I guess once we stand still and auto attack people will be happy.

Since this conversation has come around to “show me math” once again

392 Health/Sec * 25 Sec= 9800 Health

Healing Surge at full Adrenaline= 9820 on a 30 second cooldown+provides full adrenaline if you didn’t have it (a utility tradeoff)

Until a fight hits 25 seconds long, Healing surge is better numerically and provides an additional benefit/utility.

The strength that HS has is from the fact that it can’t be interrupted and none of its heal is wasted. If you poison the warrior during the fight, it begins to be outdone by HS even with the cooldown. The actual breakover point when Surge works out better overall (including cooldown time) is if you have about a 50% uptime of poison (easily done on a thief, necro, or ranger). So if you’re a condi player you should work on maintaining poison if the fight is going to go on longer than 25 seconds. If the fight isn’t going to last that long, surge is better anyway.

They’re (most likely) changing LS. Lets wait out the rise of the boon bunkers again or see what else happens. There was a reason they gave it the ability to steal 2 boons at a time in the first change.

Zodian.6597:

Maugetarr.6823:

Zodian.6597:

feliscatus.1430:

So, you can dodge a lot in between not damaging me? K.

Actually, sd 3 does do pretty good dmg (LS hits for around 2-3k), and rips boons from you. So you could be taken even more damage if you have might or fury uptime in your build.

So if you’re only hitting with LS to keep cycling to FS, and dodging in between and not throwing out any other attacks, what sort of DPS are you putting out? I mean, assuming that every LS and FS hits, how many do you get to use in a minute (or whatever criteria you’ve normalized this about) and boil it down to DPS.

without crits or evades (steady weps), you’re going to hit about 1.5k-1.65k dps. On average you’ll evade inbetween sd3’s, evade = .75s which means we subtract 25% of the original dps (we’re now doing 1.5k over 1.75s), which leaves us with 1.125-1.24k dps.
If we run soldiers amulet, we have 35% crit chance with fury (which you’ll have most of the time via boon rips and steal). Factoring that crit chance means 35% of the time that dps is doubled, over a 10s perior 1.125k dps becomes 2.3k dps for 3.5 of those seconds, we average that and find that 6.5*1.125k + 3.5*2.3k = 15.36k, we devide that by 10 and end up with 1.536k DPS
With zerkers amulet, we get 1.865k DPS -without factoring in the crit damage (+20%).

So to answer your question with a tldr:
1.125k dps without fury
1.536k dps with fury + soldiers amulet
and 1.865k dps with fury + zerkers amulet not including the crit damage increase of 20% from zerks amulet (it’s well over 2k)

Well that seems mediocre at best. What armor value is this against? I mean against a regen warrior the upper end of you DPS will probably equal out to 1300 (assuming you don’t poison him). Against a necro or warrior (assuming no healing+every attack hitting) that’s still going to drag the fight out to 10+ seconds which really starts to favor the field/aoe spam they can put out. Seems like everything has to go absolutely right for meh results. And off you fight a guard who likes wards you have to steal stability or you’re not going to be able to connect with a lot of those attacks. It’s the strongest weaponset we have (imo) but only if a good player makes everything happen exactly as planned while meeting minimal resistance.

Zodian.6597:

feliscatus.1430:

So, you can dodge a lot in between not damaging me? K.

Actually, sd 3 does do pretty good dmg (LS hits for around 2-3k), and rips boons from you. So you could be taken even more damage if you have might or fury uptime in your build.

So if you’re only hitting with LS to keep cycling to FS, and dodging in between and not throwing out any other attacks, what sort of DPS are you putting out? I mean, assuming that every LS and FS hits, how many do you get to use in a minute (or whatever criteria you’ve normalized this about) and boil it down to DPS.

sorrow.2364:

Maugetarr.6823:

If built for it, can’t necros have 3 seconds of stability every 7 seconds at this point (near to death + foot in the grave)?

Of course, but it means that you are not using Death Shroud at all, since to get 3s stability every 7s you have to just pop in and out.

Let’s not consider at all the heavy trait investment to get this stability for arguing purposes (30 points into a traitline and 2 traits).
It still means that you are eating any kind of damage the warrior is throwing at you on HPs without any chance to mitigate it, as it is well known that Death Shroud is the only form of damage mitigation of Necromancers. Also, you are still exposed to stuns for more than 50% of the time even in this fringe case, so since Warriors are able to chain stun idefinitely, you are going to eat at least 1-2 stuns in that non-stability window with ease.

I dare you to try Foot in The Grave and debunk this myth by yourself.

On my thief I usually invest 20-30 points into SA to try to counter condi-spam necros (and engis). Similarly I invest at least 20 in defense for cleasing ire on my warrior and also take runes of lyssa to have some sort of decent removal to even begin to fight condition builds. Maybe you will miss a stun occasionally with foot in the grave, but its there. I was simply suggesting that there are more options available than just stun breaks on a necro.

dash.1952:

Sifu.6527:

jmatb.6307:

This will not be a problem once Paralyzation doesn’t add an entire second to the stuns. Your QQ is somewhat justified now, but at the same time there are the following options:

dodging
kiting
stun breaks
ranged damage
blinking out of their LOS
stealth
your own CC
retreating
playing one so you know its weaknesses on your main
etc…

Mesmer does fine against Warrior 1v1

As a necro:

dodging – I do not have access to vigor
kiting – I’m a slow kitten necro with no mobility
stun breaks – Limited stun breaks
ranged damage – Can’t because I cannot kite nor does my ranged damage really do any damage vs a berz stance warrior
blinking out of their LOS – No mobility
stealth – What stealth?
your own CC – Cant because of berz stance or they have stability
retreating – No mobility to get out
playing one so you know its weaknesses on your main – I have one and I own necro so hard

I’m not a good player so any other tips on fighting a stun warrior as a necro would be greatly appreciated. Thanls.

As a necro player, I second this greatly. I have timed my dodges, and use every CC I have available. The problem is, the warrior has too great of a mobility with access to too many stuns for me to even be effective against them. Against decent stun warriors, yeah, I can kill them. But against a skilled stun warrior, it’s GG as there is nothing I can do to counter him (and I have timed my fear between their stability, and tried kiting with a 25% speed signet—they still catch up easily).

Some classes can deal with stun warriors more easily. The issue as a necro is, we are an easy target for them (and yes, I can drop a 5 sec stability with a 60 sec cd, which does little). I think the stun should be reviewed, because if I’m using all of my available resources and still getting stuck in massive stun locks, something is wrong.

For anyone that may think I need to learn to play, I’m ranked high on the solo leader board, and know my class mechanics extremely well as an MM. I’m not advocating for stun to be removed, just for it to be reviewed in light of the situation. I’m all for a class to be challenging, and love seeing warriors back as a competitor since their class revamping.

If built for it, can’t necros have 3 seconds of stability every 7 seconds at this point (near to death + foot in the grave)?

Buzzcrave.6197:

Might as well give stealth to Warrior, oh while we’re at it make everyone able to use clones and minions as well. Lets all play the same class with every single trait and skill available.

Uh, were talking about how you might implement a warrior 15 point trait into a grandmaster slot. You know, sort of like how warriors can deal +20% damage as an adept trait while they’re under 50% health. Maybe you’d like the comparison of signet cooldown traits instead. Warriors seem like fair comparisons to thieves since they fill similar roles as front line combatants just in different ways. Were not asking to be given adrenaline or burst skills, just to maybe have a trait reworked into a mechanism similar to a warrior trait so that it becomes more useful than just switching between 2 of the same weapon sets for the initiative gain.

It’s not the “best” but it currently works for me for frac 30-34. You can take a hit and keep on going. Weapon sets don’t matter as I usually just carry enough for all the weapon combos depending on whats needed.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsYVlYmiO3eS9E+5Ey2jdqC5JOFFlR1pgrsKA-jUCBYLCikFQEBgUBAZPFRjtMsIas6aYKXCyqYJFA-w

(this is for a non squishy build)

I wanna hear how this ends up. I’m just curious. Actually for all the suggestions I’ve seen you make for thieves and warriors I’m also very surprised that you main necro in pvp.

Asuran thief on the right.

For pistol mainhand in general I’d like to see the following:

Pistol 1:
Fires a a rate close to that of ranger shortbow. It’s relatively low damage and single target unless traited. It should apply vulnerability instead of bleed at a duration which yields 8 stacks from autoattacking without duration buffs (P/D users please keep reading before saying no).

Pistol 1 stealth attack:
Increase the bleed duration by 1-2 seconds.

Pistol 2:
Put poison on it at 5 seconds base. This would allow for another damaging condition for P/D users as well as the healing reduction it would grant P/P users in fights against high regen classes like rangers and warriors. For power builds traited at least 15 into DA, this would allow for weakness to also be included on the pistol mainhand. (lotus poison should also be reduced to 15 sec ICD per target so at 25 in DA you have a 33% uptime, but that’s a different topic)

P/P 3:
Reduce number of shots by 2 decreasing channel time accordingly. Increase the remaining shots’ power so that the skill maintains the same overall damage but gets slightly more bursty while being slightly less susceptible to retal.

Why I think the above would be a good idea:
Condition builds would get one additional damaging condition without having to bring spider venom. It would help with the bunkering classes that currently exist in either a power build or a condition build.
Autoattack would work with P/P while constantly applying a cover condition for P/D users. To make up for the loss of the number of bleeds, each bleed would last longer from sneak attack. Since P/P rarely utilizes this attack anyway it seems fine to move the condition damage to the build already using it. Best of all, when you run out of initiative from unload spamming you’re still increasing your (and your team’s) direct damage output.

Excalibur.9748:

there’s an option that lets you use #5 immediately. i think it’s called fast ground target or something.

Yes. Its very useful, but you sort of need to guess at the max range which can be tricky with bad camera angles. In the new balance patch they’re supposed to be adding release to cast which will hopefully help immensely. @op, once you get used to the ranges of SB, turn it on (or release to cast if it’s available at such time). Sometimes it’ll save you like binding dodge to mouse rather than using double tap to dodge.

Why can’t we just play both warrior and thief and realize they’re pretty much on equal footing with each other. Both seem to receive about the same amount of QQ lately anyway.

pantsforbirds.9032:

Maugetarr.6823:

Next SotG after LS has boon stripping reduced: “We need to shave S/P. It has evasion, stun, and damage. All those together make it a little too powerful.”

Is this just your speculation? Or was this actually quoted from a dev? Honestly pistolwhip is a very very strong skill. It does a ton of damage, stuns, and evades, but I think that its a pretty balanced skill if you consider the fact that you have to be rooted for it to work. I have been running a build similar to the one on my guide, but recently ive been exploring a 10/0/0/30/30 s/p & s/p build with energy sigils and its been kinda interesting. It really really hard to kill 1v1, but im not sure its viable without the extra damage from critical strikes. I would hate to have to go back to d/p if they nerf s/p.

No, no, no. Relax. It’s speculation (satire) based on the last SotG. It’s pretty much the same quote as when they were talking about S/D with a necro warrior and a couple of other classes (no thief main represented). What’s scary is that it’s believable….

Next SotG after LS has boon stripping reduced: “We need to shave S/P. It has evasion, stun, and damage. All those together make it a little too powerful.”

Put it on quick pockets and reduce the initiative given back to 2?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Maugetarr.6823:

Except that as a burst build which it seems you’re referring to you’ve wasted all your initiative with the hs spam (ineffective against most experienced players) so you either use blinding powder or shadow refuge to leave. Blinding powder will get you 3(4) seconds of stealth while SR will give your opponent 4 seconds to melt you inside of it or knock you out of it. You probably are going to have to burn shadowstep the utility to get some distance in between you and the person now trying to kill you meaning that you’ve just blown 2 cooldowns on 50-60 second times. It seems you’re in the same boat as the person you tried to attack.

So you have used 1/2 Utilities, while the other person has burned weapon skills AND utilities. Come back when Thief weapon skills have an actual cool down then what you are saying can be considered, until then the Thief will ALWAYS have the upper hand when re-engaging someone who they have forced to burn weapon skills AND utilities to survive.

You have burned your initiative which is a global cooldown on both weapon sets. So now your empty initiative pool recharges slowly and will reset if you use an ability, unlike other classes where all of your abilities recharge simultaneously. That’s the trade off. So for 1 infiltrators arrow to get away, you’re going to have to wait 8 seconds to use it while using no other skills in the meantime.

While I don’t use it, its mechanics are by design, not by accident. It is a legitimate albeit sometimes frustrating mechanic to play against, but as soon as it has been nerfed, the other weapon sets that thief has will soon follow. Over the past year I have tried a number of builds and even S/P which is arguably underpowered resulted in someone joining my party asking/complaining about what I was doing. The thief has as its base mechanic the ability to annoy. Many of its abilities would be sub par were it not for the ability to use them repeatedly. We prey upon other’s mistakes/complacency to win a fight, especially when not built to burst. As soon as the mechanic that you believe overpowering has been toned down (re: nerfed) your build is next on the chopping block. Perma-stealth was a result of the reduction of burst (which is arguably on par with a warrior but by the devs definition we should be unrivaled in this aspect). S/D dodge/attrition is already being changed even though it just comes up to par with stunlock/condi spam builds out there. Before you look down on other builds, try them for yourself.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Daecollo.9578:

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

I use healing signet sometimes on some builds. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. I would like to see it nerfed so that most the time I lose, and occasionally I win..just like the old days.

A few threads from the past…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Why-Warrior-is-the-worst-class-in-spvp
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/64184-warrior-outclassed-in-every-way/
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/56924-spvp-warrior-feels-weakunderpowered/page__st__30
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/938738-guild-wars-2/65773957
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Why-do-warriors-suck-so-much/first#post2698157
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/84144-warrior-pvp-in-need-of-help/

And my very own…
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Why-is-ranger-pet-better-then-Warrior/first

Minion of Vey.4398:

Vuh.1328:

Just allow rangers to tame warriors as pet.

But that would be a ranger nerf

Good to see someone else has a memory longer than 30 days. Warrior’s for the longest time have had a poor, to below average reputation in any form of PvP. i like the changes they (a-net) have made. However, I don’t main a warrior. If I can remember my spvp split, I think Guardian, then mesmer by a smidge and then warrior a few percent behind them, ranger, necro. In other words, I regularly face warrior like everyone else and I don’t really see what the entire QQ is all about. I would rather handle a tuff nut warrior than a pure bunker engineer..or the infamous fear spam necro everyone was seeing 5-6 weeks ago.

Pretty much this. On my thief I usually have a much harder time with engis/guards (depending on their/my build at the time). Mathematically healing signet barely eeks out an advantage in healing only and doesn’t offer any other benefit (boons, stealth, condi cure).

Sanduskel.1850:

Unless you rely on permastealth as a crutch, you can do just fine in pve on your thief. Move on.

You know, your oldest post is about 15 days ago, and from your language and attitude towards thieves I’m starting to think that Burnfall got a second account or maybe Columba or some similar character we dealt with in the past created a new one after getting banned. Most of your comments aren’t constructive and only denigrate one of the two play styles the thief has.

Thinking about it, I’ve actually been running a lot of dungeons and fractal 30 with my thief lately and it actually has a pretty good place in terms of pve. We actually have a fair amount of non-DPS utility. It’s only in pvp/wvw that I don’t feel as useful. The new bloodlust points feel like they were designed to help the thief be useful and is a step in the right direction, but I rarely pvp with my thief, and when I do its a lot of work for “meh” results. If they allowed for caps in stealth again, I’d probably be happy. Not for high stealth builds, but losing ground in an extended fight if you’re not using evade spam is kinda stupid, especially for a point that some AoE can almost entirely cover

Asura thieves are also great. Good animations, good dialogue. I had a sylvari one that I ended up deleting cause it was too stiff in its movements for thief. Human would be your best alternative choice to that imo.

Sanduskel.1850:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

Imagi.4561:

Sanduskel.1850:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

i play a thief and I agree that stealth is poorly designed. it’s op’d to be able to remain stealthed the entire time while attacking. that’s while I don’t spec permastealth. it’s for easymode scrubs.

You keep using that word but I don’t think it means what you think it means.
I forget who originally linked this a month or so ago, but I would say your constant attacking of other thieves is a projection of what you are onto someone else.

The Scrub:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

well if you have to rely on perma stealth, you wouldn’t recognize a true scrub.

I don’t particularly care for the stealth playstyle, but I don’t see how it is any more or less valid than evasion. It’s just a different way to play.

it’s much much easier to play that evasion. honest thieves admit as much. decent thieves consider it the scrub easymode spec.

Really? Honest and decent thieves admit as much? Both sets have their strengths and weaknesses. In fact it’s much harder to take down a boon bunker using D/P than S/D. You might actually see honest and decent thieves running around with both sets to make up for what the other is lacking. Everyone thinks that their class/build takes more skill to use. Warriors can wreck perma-stealth builds now by equipping berserker stance. BTW, I run around with S/D as my build because of the shortcomings of D/P. That would be the reason I linked the definition of scrub to you because you seem to think it’s just easy mode, but it’s pretty easily countered by skilled players. S/D is overall the stronger set, but keep telling yourself that you are better because you use evasion instead of stealth. Why don’t you try using both at the same time and see which one you end up relying on more.

it’s obviously easier. so many more thieves use the permastealth and that’s the spec that kitten es most players off. it’s very clear which is the scrub easy mode spec. why else would this spec be played by the majority of thieves?

It’s very frustrating that most thieves pick this scrub easymode spec, because it ruins the reputation of all people playing thieves. Many players hate me simply because I play a thief, but their rage stems from the exploitation of perma stealth in wvw.

Because no one ever complains about perma-evade boon stripping thieves right? They aren’t thinking about making changes to non-stealth thieves at all.