Guild Wars 2

timmyf.1490:

If you don’t like Kas and Jory, that’s fine. You’re allowed to think the writing is poor or the story doesn’t make sense or it’s pandering to the audience.

What doesn’t seem right is complaining that there are now two lesbian relationships in game – seemingly at the expense of hetero relationships – when there are tons of hetero relationships that are being ignored. Including one in the Living Story that’s been just as much fun to follow: Penelopee and Bloomanoo.

A laser-focus on one particular piece – the lesbian relationship – while having blinders to the rest of the game and then crying oppression? That makes quaggan angry.

It isn’t that those relationships exist. Its that the ones that get all the major focus have, thus far, been those relationships.

The two that have had the MOST focus in terms of romance are caithe/faolin and kasmeer/marjory. Some might argue that Logan/Jenna are as prominent, but I don’t think so; I think that’s more Logan/Rytlock with Jenna being the inflammatory point between them, and as such isn’t really about romance at all, but their love/hate friendship.

Anyone who cares to go back and look will see that I’ve said, several times now, that I LIKED the caithe/faolin storyline.

But I also feel that Caithe/Faolin and Marjory/kasmeer took more spotlight time in terms of romance than any other. The rest of the romantic relationships were backdrops, short personal stories, environmental, etc.

And as such, choosing to have not one but TWO lesbian relationships as the two that got more spotlight screentime seemed strange to me, and as such, potentially riddled with either fanboy service or political agenda.

Again, let me reiterate: I really enjoyed the caithe/faolin storyline. I didn’t care they were both, essentially, female (even if they are plants etc, it still amounts to the same thing), I didn’t care they were a “lesbian” couple, it was a fun story.

But when they have a second romantic relationship taking center stage centered around two females AGAIN, thats what made me begin to wonder what was going on.

It wasnt the fact they exist; its the fact that two in a row took more major screen time back to back.

Kanto.1659:

Morfedel.4165:

As a mesmer, I am running GS/Staff; when their condi reflection is up I GS the thing, throwing out berserker and spatial surging him. When his condi reflection goes down, I switch to staff.

But not for the conditions. As we know, in zergs, the conditions hit max stacks pretty fast. I use Staff for the Warlock, who does more damage the more conditions are on it.

With all the AoE, they don’t generally last very long, but sometimes they get lucky and stay up quite some time. Not sure why precisely, but I’m not complaining when it happens.

The difference is that the GS doesn’t count as a projectile. My grenades, and I’m berserker geared, thrown me fire, 10/15 stacks of bleed, poison, confusion…. And I’m like, wut?

True, but you could equip another kit other than just grenades.

Maybe a couple BLTP weapon tickets. That way you can CHOOSE something.

CharrGirl.7896:

Hey OP, since we all feel the need to elaborate our sexual orientation beforehand, I’m gonna do the same, I’m a hetero female in a relationship for a long time now and I have no problems investing myself in homosexual relationship like Kasmeer and Majory because they reflect real life and real world feelings of how two people act around their loved ones, especially in dire situations.

That being said I don’t need a hetero romance in the spotlight to relate myself to – i see them as people foremost, and characters. As such I tend to avoid using words “lesbian” or “gay”, but I know a kittenton of people wouldn’t agree with me.

Anyway that’s how I see it. Try to give it a shot :P

And if you will look at my last post above, plus read my OP again, you will see I didn’t have a problem with it the first time around. Its when they did it twice in a row to “stealing the spotlight” romances that I had an issue with it… because it felt, to me, like they are pushing an agenda.

I really enjoyed the Caithe/Faolin storyline. I just felt when they started a second lesbian storyline for the major plot point that I was like, “ok, are they doing this for an agenda, to appeal to the geek fanboy who likes girl-on-girl porn, or what?”

After all, otherwise, why not have a hetero romance for the second one, or a interspecies, or golem/asura or golem/golem as the serious, major romance of the story? Why have two lesbian romances for the major romance in a row?

I think my complaint is because such relationships are, statistically, rare, compared to other types.

But I didn’t complain the first time, and even enjoyed it. But the second time, it made me go “hm.”

Durrik.4679:

Of course the main characters don’t really have that much time to develop a romance. Interracial romance is still a hotly contested subject and I don’t think Anet is really ready to make that step, not like Star Trek was with the famous white/black kiss.

But I think it could be done – I’d have loved to have seen, say, an Asura/Sylvari, or maybe like Braham/Rox.

But, I wanted to point out something to those who decided to ignore my continual comments that my disgruntlement isn’t discriminatory:

I really enjoyed the caithe/faolin story. I thought it was intriguing, and here faolin was, a queen of nightmares, and caithe loves her, and visa versa. I thought it was great!

I just wanted to see something different second time around. Seeing the same type of pairing second time around felt contrived and with a goal of some sort….

CharrGirl.7896:

I honestly couldn’t care WHO is in the spotlight as it:

1) Doesn’t affect me personally in any way
2) They’re here to tell a story, not push an agenda

It’s funny how people get offended and scream for “equality” whenever a minority gets a spotlight once in a century.

How do you know they arent pushing an agenda? Not trying to argue, just genuinely curious.

And as for equality, like I have said several times now, I didn’t say a word when Caithe and Faolin’s romance was revealed. But I just found it odd when now, for two stories whose main romance revealed were homosexual in nature, I found that choice curious. Homosexuality is a very small percentage of the whole… am I ok with it being a part of the story on occasion? Sure. But when it comes to the main spotlight, when it happens twice out of two times and well after a year of game time….

Heck, i’d like to have seen if Logan and Jenna ever got together. Or, an interspecies romance. It just seems to me when they spent a major part of the romance spotlight in the primary story arcs on lesbian relationships, it feels like they are either pushing an agenda or they are pandering to fanboys who like girl on girl action.

Either way I wouldnt like it in these cases.

Now if they had followed Caithe and Faolin with, say, a braham/rox romance, or if they had Logan and Jenna, or a golem and asura, or whatever.. the would have been doing something different, and STILL non standard barring logan and jenna.

And heck, afterwards, coming back to caithe and faolin or doing Jory / kasmeer later, after exploring something else as a major story element, that would have been fine with me too.

florence.1674:

Morfedel.4165:

It has nothing to do with homophobia, and everything to do with finding it uninteresting. Tell me, do you think a lesbian or gay man finds watching hetero romances interesting?

I KNEW that someone would come along with a homophobic accusation, no matter how I explained it. I was hoping I’d be wrong, but I knew it was coming. Disappointing that you couldn’t take the post for how it was intended.

The point is, should it matter what the sexes of the 2 persons in a relationship are? You are being discriminatory and asking such relationships to stop appearing.

You need to read better. If I was discriminatory, I’d have been complaining since discovering Faolin and Caithe. I had said no such thing until the second time this thing rolled around.

I also didn’t say I wanted it to stop appearing. What I asked is, we had two of the exact same thing appear now in the primary spotlight, and I wonder why? Lesbian relationships, as a part of the population as a whole, is a very small percentage. Extremely small.

And as such, I think ONE major relationship like that is fine in the story as a primary spotlight. But when a second one rolls around, considering the fact that lesbian relationships are such a small percentage in real life, it makes me wonder why?

And yes, as a hetero, I find hetero romances more interesting. But if I was being discriminatory, I’d have protested when I discovered the first one. Been playing since beta, and I never said a word, and didn’t care at all, until the second one came around.

Tell me, what’s the problem with expecting OTHER romance types to be explored as part of the primary storyline? There are so many possibilities, and yet only one type has taken the spotlight as a major story.

((Barring Logan and Queen Jenna, but we don’t really see them canoodling, do we? It’s been the ignition point between him and Rytlock rather than a romance being developed. But… perhaps I should count that anyway. I’ll have to consider it))

Slayer Lord.5023:

Technically, Sylvari don’t really have genders. They are all equal except they have an outward appearance as “human”. This makes Marjory and Kasmeer a true lesbian couple.

Have you totally missed the Quaggan side character romance??? They are like Quaggan married or whatever Quaggans do. There is your straight couple.

Mixed species romance? That is a lot harder. The cultures are very different. Humans and Charr just got out of the longest war in the game. Most Charr would consider others “meat” unless they prove otherwise. Although friendship is possible, its very touchy right now. Asura don’t truly respect anyone not Asura. Sylvari are the most open society, but generally consider themselves different. Norn and Human is the most likely, but Norn respect must be earned with victories. Only rare humans could do that. Other species generally live tribally and don’t fit in the big cities aside from friendly merchants and travelers of their kind.

Ok, guess I didn’t make myself clear. I didn’t say these romances didnt exist. I said they didn’t take any spotlight the way the lesbian romances did. Yes, there are “romances” scattered all over the place! I know!

But they are mostly just a few lines at best, if not just ambient conversation. None of them are taking the spotlight the way the lesbian ones did.

And I didn’t have a problem with the FIRST one. You can look at every post I’ve ever made, and I never once complained about Caithe and Faolin prior to Marjory and Kasmeer coming into the picture.

My problem was that we had two in a row that seem to take the spotlight as a primary part of the story. I’d just like to have for the second spotlight romance, either seen something more standard, as a hetero who can identify more with a hetero relationship, or something far more different, such as interspecies, which I think would actually bring up some intriguing conversations.

Carighan.6758:

I agree with what Arosche says, there are plenty heterosexual relationships. Only, we tend to not register those.

And that’s sort of interesting in itself. Plenty of games present us with 100% heterosexual relationships. No one ever even notices that. At least not without actively looking for it.
But here we have one lesbian relationship on main NPCs, and one which couuuuld be interpreted as overtly lesbian (it’s difficult to say, Sylvari have sexual dimorphism but no actual gender identity much). And it’s… special?

Sure, it stands out in a way I guess, but only by standing out less than other games.

I will also agree that I’d love to see male homosexual romance as accepted as female one has become recently, but well… I think society has a bit to go before most people will no longer find it awkward. Still, good effort.

And without wanting to sound personally criticizing, isn’t it more telling that you even noticed the “abundance” (it isn’t) of primary-NPC lesbian relationships, Morfedel? Why is it even something of note?

(Sidenote, we have a golem/golem couple in the personal story, and that part was one of the saddest moments of the PS. Beat out Tybalt, for me. “The things we do for love”, Asura… I think Dynamics.)

I see what you are saying, but look at the screen time.

The quaggan relationship. Has a few lines of dialogue. All the rest of the romances, are pretty much just a few lines here and there.

But Caithe’s and Faolins, as well as Marjory and Kasmeer’s, are both front and center – at least, it seemed so to me.

Now that being the case, I suppose Logan and the Queen could be argued either direction. They were important to the story… but you also never saw them snuggling up, getting all cutesy, etc.

Maybe as such I am whitewashing it. I dunno, I may have to go back and rewatch it.

In the meantime though, I haven’t done all the personal stories yet, but I do recall at least one of those others; the asura woman whose husband died in your care.

But those were personal stories, not the main story that every single person gets involved in. I guess that’s what I mean: it felt like these two were thrust in the spotlight, where the others were not. But then, Logan’s relationship to the queen was there too, but the romance was unrequited and mostly just offscreen, serving as a friction point between him and Rytlock.

Maybe you ARE right though, and maybe those should carry nearly the same weight. I’ll have to think on it.

And as a side note: golem/golem romance?! Where?! I need to see that!

florence.1674:

It’s a relationship between 2 people. Should it matter whatever the sexes of the 2 are? Claiming to not be homophobic when making a homophobic point does not absolve the OP from being homophobic.

Race used to matter to people when it comes to relationships. Do you think it’s acceptable to question the race of 2 people in a relationship today?

It has nothing to do with homophobia, and everything to do with finding it uninteresting. Tell me, do you think a lesbian or gay man finds watching hetero romances interesting?

I KNEW that someone would come along with a homophobic accusation, no matter how I explained it. I was hoping I’d be wrong, but I knew it was coming. Disappointing that you couldn’t take the post for how it was intended.

Pipra.7580:

Arosche.7438:

I would have liked to see more male homosexual relationships but my gut feeling is gw2 player are just not going to take a male relationship as well as they will take a female one. It’s horrible but true I wish it was different.

There is a male Sylvari couple early in one of that race’s personal stories. I’ve never seen any objection about it.

Also, Rytlock and Logan are clearly the #1 couple in the game.

There is? I have two sylvari, but I haven’t played them much yet. I’ll have to see that.

And as for Rytlock and Logan, BWAHAHA, you are right haha!

Arosche.7438:

First of all; your point is not homophobic. Anyone who says so should be used as a footstool.

I believe you’ve made a valuable point. Female homosexual relationships are a bit more acceptable ( for absolutely horrid sexist reason as “men like it so it’s okay”) and I absolutely think Anet is trying to push an agenda. A good agenda! The more homosexual relationships in the spotlight the better!

I disagree about the inequality though. There are a ton hetrosexual relationships in gw2, they just fly under your radar because they are so normalised to you. I can count five off the top of my head in personal story (even a married couple!). So a ton of normal hetro sexual relationships for 2 homosexual relationships in the spotlight… seems okay to me.

I would have liked to see more male homosexual relationships but my gut feeling is gw2 player are just not going to take a male relationship as well as they will take a female one. It’s horrible but true I wish it was different.

While I admit that i’d be more uncomfortable with a male relationship, I also know that that is hypocritical. I can’t control my emotional response, but I can recognize it and choose not to act on it.

And you are right, it IS a double standard.

With these battles, I’m actually even running a mantra build. Figured the AoE heals and other stuff might help the group out some.

As a mesmer, I am running GS/Staff; when their condi reflection is up I GS the thing, throwing out berserker and spatial surging him. When his condi reflection goes down, I switch to staff.

But not for the conditions. As we know, in zergs, the conditions hit max stacks pretty fast. I use Staff for the Warlock, who does more damage the more conditions are on it.

With all the AoE, they don’t generally last very long, but sometimes they get lucky and stay up quite some time. Not sure why precisely, but I’m not complaining when it happens.

Walhalla.5473:

The Assault Knight has two Modes. In the first Mode he is really an anti condition kitten but in the second mode he weakens more the more conditions are on him.

Also one of the bosses in Breachmaker is impossible without conditions

Hm. Which one?

WereScrib.7154:

Also, honestly. Don’t we have enough lesbians in Guild Wars 2? I mean, the last guild of heroes had one. Why does this one? If we want samesex. Why does it have to be annoyingly cutesy ~girls~. Caithe was at least interesting and had a really creepy, immoral relationship with an even creepier and sicker person. It was the exact opposite of most femslash pairings. It was ~creepy~.

Seriously. Like, honestly. If Braham had (lets say his history was vague and we didn’t know about his galwuv) gone home after this update to kiss his beau. That… ~that~ would have been interesting.

Or Taimi. But then maybe because the Taimi-as-a-lesbian archetype hasn’t been done since El Hazard, I feel it’d be more fun. Also, that’d make her Scarlet Obsession distinctly uncomfortable.

First of all, I agree. I just made a separate post about this, although with some concern that I’ll get attacked, but… what the heck is the deal with now two prominent romances back to back both being, essentially, lesbian? One I was ok with, but now two?

I did find the faolin/caithe thing interesting for precisely what you say, but this second one… I find myself asking the question, “are they trying to appeal to the geek fanboy crowd that also likes watching girl-on-girl action, or is this a social agenda thing?”

As for Taimi, since Taimi is a child, I’d have been very uncomfortable with that.

So, now we have had TWO prominent lesbian romances:

1. Caithe and Faolin
2. Marjory and Kasmeer

And no heterosexual romances “in the spotlight,” or other species, or….
I’m not saying they don’t exist. We have the backdrop romance of Logan and the Queen, for instance, and the two cooing quaggans in the refugee camp, together since the Tower of Nightmares.

But none of them have had much spotlight. But now we have had two that seemed to get more spotlight than the rest, both lesbian romances.

To preface my own personal attitude and to hopefully deflect accusations of homophobia, I could’t care LESS what someone’s sexual proclivities are, as long as the people are all consenting adults. I’ve been friends with homosexuals, swingers, BDSMers, the list goes on and on.

But I also know that the mainstream IS heterosexual. And having now TWO lesbian romances back to back in the stories as the closest thing to a spotlight romance does now raise my eyebrow: it feels like it’s a social agenda being pushed.

I don’t like social agendas in my entertainment. I just want to be entertained, not proselytized to.

So why now two of these in a row? If the story writers were just trying to write something “different,” they could have mixed it up. Why not a romance in a different species, or in BETWEEN two species? For example, Braham and Rox!

I’d love to see a quaggan/skritt romance, just because I think it would be hysterical.

I’m just saying, it seems/feels now after two of these prominent that its a social commentary. If not, why two of these back to back? If so, well, please, we don’t need to have a social commentary shoved down our throats. Just entertain us, and if adding in romances, remember who the MAJORITY is, or at least mix it up with other romances, such as the type we would not normally see.

Norn/quaggan? Human Charr? Golem/Asura? :-D

And actually, someone else I saw posted here they felt the lesbian scenes weren’t for a social agenda but for the pandering to the “fanboy” out there, and why didn’t he get to have two men in a romance? His question, not mine, but I did find it an interesting one.

Anyway. I’m just saying. I’m interested in hetero romances, not homosexual ones… or romances that we couldnt see in the real world. Have one lesbian romance if you need it, but please remember that the majority of people ARE hetero, and we would like to have our interests “pandered” to as well.

And it doesn’t mean we are homophobic. We just happen to have our own interests in what we like.

Heck, last time I saw the two quaggans at the refugee camp, the female quaggan, on saying she hated scarlet and wished she would DIE, I thought she sounded borderline ready to transform to that Piranha Hulk state that I thought it would have been cool for her to show up ready to chew on Scarlet some!

(as a side note, I did find it interesting that Marjory appeared not lesbian, but pansexual; she appeared to flirt with anything that moved; I would have found it far more interesting if she DID flirt with just about everything, and thus took more time to get closer to Kasmeer, maybe even have some friction about it in the beginning…. and Scarlet’s crack about dating Caithe in the Aetherblade dungeon was hysterical too! )

And here I’m concerned that the politically correct crowd is going to attack me for this post… but like I said, I don’t care about people’s proclivities in general… after all, I have a “proclivity” that I’m not going to discuss here. I just think that two in a row for a game like this is a bit odd and eyebrow-raising. Next storyline, think we can steer away from a third repetition and give us something a little different?

Carighan.6758:

OmaiGodman.2098:

I didn’t have a Spinal backpiece and I got to Scarlet on my first try. So I doubt that really does anything. There is an achievement for equipping the backpiece, but you don’t need to do it in order to get to Scarlet (unless just having made one counts, I made it but haven’t equipped it yet)

It’s merely a second way to get there, my GF tried that this morning. Either you do the combat, get past the Prime Hologram, then do Scarlet. Or you equip a backpack, go into the teleporter, then do Scarlet.

Do you miss any part of the story by skipping? Because when you use the teleporter that takes you right to the end, it DOES say you will be missing story elements.

And every time my group went in to fight the hologram, the kitten ed thing became invulnerable for long enough that we failed it, so I haven’t gotten past… and I didn’t want to skip any story.

Cardon.4092:

Morfedel.4165:

Cardon.4092:

Interracial friendship, a lesbian couple, a disabled girl that still gets stuff done…

This game is any hardcore right-wingers nightmare.

Whoa, hold on there. Unfair and uncool. Since when are right wingers against disabled people, or interracial relationships? That is so 1960s at least.

Whoa, easy there. There was a reason I used the prefix ‘hardcore’, you know, if you would go by party colors, it would be infrared. Or just the 1960s you mentioned.
It was nothing more but a light jab at the social stance ANet is obviously making which I’m all for.

But yeah, I’m sorry, it was in poor taste, after all we know you can’t discuss
A) Politics
B) Religion
C) The Great Pumpkin

What I’m not sorry for is my stance on the Torment weapon skins :P People who used these with Chaos Gloves, FoW armor and Bandana still need a smack on the head.

Hey, dont you DARE diss the Great Pumpkin, or yer gonna get FLAMED! Flamed like… like… something that’s… really, you know… hot and, uh, on fire!!!

Anyway, fair nuff

Cardon.4092:

Interracial friendship, a lesbian couple, a disabled girl that still gets stuff done…

This game is any hardcore right-wingers nightmare.

Whoa, hold on there. Unfair and uncool. Since when are right wingers against disabled people, or interracial relationships? That is so 1960s at least.

Gay and lesbians, yeah. Got a ways to go.

(I’m a moderate that leans hard right fiscally, slightly left socially. I couldnt care less about people’s sexuality as long as no one gets hurt and everyone are adults. Gay, groups, furries, whatever floats your boat. But I’m well aware what the average right-winger thinks of such things. But the disabled and interracial thing has gone the way of the dinosaur some time ago)

EDIT: I should explain why i reacted the way I did. I’m considered a right winger because of my view on most things, but socially I couldnt care less about many things, I have hispanic children, I’m disabled myself and work with disabled people, my ex wife is hindu, and have not fathomed why anyone would care about such things. The above comment I quoted kinda struck a nerve because of that. Sorry if it was too off topic.

Chase.8415:

Traveller.7496:

Chase

I guess it’s one of those things where you have to be gay to understand, like myself.

Do notice that people here didn’t criticize them for having a homosexual relationship. For my part the critique has always been about writing. It’s you who is taking it as lesbian relationship criticism.

Just give it time over the weekend and someone will complain about it. The relationship isn’t that apparent (up until now)

DarksunG.9537:

CharrGirl.7896:

Well I guess it can’t be helped if people see it that way, since it was pretty easy to miss on a lot of conversations.

They actually DO have meaningful conversations in these last 2 patches, talking to each other as regular people, expressing interest for each others past, revelations of what it means to be with one another, how they wanna better themselves as people (actual quote) It’s not just sexual. I always stick around NPC-s to listen , and to me, there definitely is a progression in their relationship.

having a handful of conversations =/= relationship. And the conversions hardly explore emotional depth & are completely irrelevant to the story. it’s mostly mush. Whereas Koss & Melloni’s struggle literally informed what you did next & why & impacted them in different ways. Like I said, Koss & Melonni had a real romance complete with opposing story archs, struggle & actual exploration of some of the complexities of feelings. Ka&Ma is cute banter & token mushy exposition.

Mhenlo & Cynn were pretty funny. I loved how they presented the story just through idle animations of the henchies in the towns in EotN. & they didn’t shove it in your face. They had the proper place for them.

Say what you want, but people will always find something to complain

remember that applies to your complaints too.

I guess it’s one of those things where you have to be gay to understand, like myself.

Nah, there is a thread by a another gay gamer that recognized the poor quality of this “relationship”. If anything you should be appalled by the shoddy quality. What do you think of the Logan/Jenna relationship?

Thats what I am stating here, it’s poor because if they made it anything decent like an actual romance people would start sharpening their pitchforks stating ArenaNet is trying to push a political agenda for homosexuality. Instead ArenaNet did the best they could in regards to this relationship, lesbians and cheap romance with a kiss.

I can’t really complain about the quality of it because at least ArenaNet had the guts to make something related to homosexuality a primary part of a story rather than some small section of the game with references.

It’s just other people complaining about the quality of it, there’s a reason for it. You can’t easily make a gay romance love story without making a lot of people angry. As much as I hate to say it there’s still a lot of hate.

Actually, since they have now had TWO lesbian relationships to be in the spotlight, I DID kind of wonder if there was an agenda going on. One, no big deal. Two? Hm.

Like I said, if they want to do something “different,” they could have gone, say, interspecies. Quaggan/Skritt maybe? LOL!

Christina.5103:

To the devs who worked on Taimi, who wrote her and created and animated her model:

I want to thank you for Taimi. I live with multiple sclerosis, and while I was only diagnosed a handful of years ago and am looking forward to a future where I won’t be trapped in my own body, I value characters like Taimi more than you can know.

My greatest trouble spots are my legs, specifically the joints in my hips and knees. There are days that I wake up and I can’t get out of bed. I’m young (in my 20s) and I walk with a cane and have a handicapped tag for my car – and I get nasty looks from people all the time because I’m young and, clearly, I shouldn’t need a cane or a handicapped space. I’ll never forget the day a pregnant woman berated me outside a grocery store for taking the handicapped space she wanted.

When I play games, it’s usually as an escape. I like to imagine that I’m the perfectly healthy Commander Shepard, or some outrageously good looking Final Fantasy character on a quest to save the world with magic. Games take me out of my situation and, for a little while, allow me to be someone else. Maybe this is why I play a hyper-mobile d/d Elementalist.

But when you introduced Taimi, I was overjoyed. I didn’t play the Marionette weapon testing update, so I didn’t see Taimi until just recently when I was mucking around the refugee camp in Gendarran. The friend I was playing with pointed her out, and I think I shrieked loud enough to wake the dead.

I don’t know where you’re going with Taimi. But honestly I don’t care. Because now, in Tyria, I can imagine having a giant golem cart me around when I can’t feel my legs or when they hurt too badly to walk. Now when I get derisive or pitying looks, I can take a minute to imagine I’m sitting on a golem’s shoulder like a complete kitten.

So thank you for thinking of people like me. Thank you for thinking about how someone with a disability might get along in your world. And thank you for making her awesome.

Christina

PS Since I’m incapable of fanart of any kind to show my appreciation, I bake. If your office would like to receive a tupperware full of cookies, I’d like to bake them for you as a thank you.

Don’t suppose you saw her dialogue with Braham in Edge of the Mists, did you? They are gone now, but if you haven’t, maybe I can find a video of it somewhere.

Anyway, I’m disabled myself, though it’s milder than yours. I am an amputee. I lost my left leg below the knee while in the military during the FIRST Iraq war roughly 25 years ago. Despite that, though, as long as I haven’t had an issue come up like foliculitis (ingrown hair), or the prosthesis is wearing out or something, I’m just fine, so I’m not really handicapped often.

It DID lead me to a career as a prosthetist though, and I take great joy in helping amputees. Mostly they are geriatric diabetics, so I’m thrilled if they even get out of their wheelchairs, but recently I fitted an 11 year old girl who lost her leg due to cancer. Wow, if you could have seen the look on her face after she took her first steps… she started crying, and I had to fight not to myself.

Anyway. So yeah, I loved Taimi was in there. I’d love to see more. Maybe people with asuran or charr tech inspired prosthetics. Harnesses for helping paralyzed people walk. Etc etc. I think it wouldn’t be wise to inundate the game with such characters, but inserting one here and there, or maybe an Advanded Research Hospital with several of these patients might be really cool.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Well I got fooled by the tooltip into believing charging mantra of recovery would clear conditions. Anyways its a nice addition to healing but not necessary in clearing conditions. Using it depends on who you’re facing though, I tried that a bit myself and I usually have to pop all 2 mantras together while facing BS thieves.

Condi Necros are the real vicious ones when it comes to conditions. Good lord, one ate me alive the other day!

Lilith Ajit.6173:

XD.

Then “aren’t you a little short for a storm trooper?”

(Ever watch Phineas and Ferb?)

“Yes, Yes I am.”

:)

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I would much rather the armor be white, so I can say: “Aren’t you a little short to be a storm trooper?”

Well, mine is mostly white lol

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

I don’t know about Mirror of Anguish, its 1 min cooldown is rather long and constant stunning from opponents (warrior etc) would render it pointless. I’d go for Debilitating dissipation just to add some punishment on people who wants to take down your phantoms.

Also I would want to add that you kind of lack condition cleansing. Since you have the chance of trying out inspiration trait line. Try change persisting images to restorative mantras and change signet of ether to mantra of recovery. You get total of about 7500 heals in 14.5 seconds and 6 condition cleansings at the cost of 20% phantom life.

As a side note, the build was specifically designed to take on thieves, so MoA is a good place here for that purpose. Obviously, though, since I can’t guarantee running into thieves, that also makes it a less than optional choice against some other classes.

However, since you normally only get 2 mantra uses without the +1 mantra use trait, seems to me that its unlikely you will wipe out 6 conditions. More like 4. Unless… does it trigger on charging it too?

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

I don’t know about Mirror of Anguish, its 1 min cooldown is rather long and constant stunning from opponents (warrior etc) would render it pointless. I’d go for Debilitating dissipation just to add some punishment on people who wants to take down your phantoms.

Also I would want to add that you kind of lack condition cleansing. Since you have the chance of trying out inspiration trait line. Try change persisting images to restorative mantras and change signet of ether to mantra of recovery. You get total of about 7500 heals in 14.5 seconds and 6 condition cleansings at the cost of 20% phantom life.

You got that right. My guild went to our arena to do some dueling, and they were very impressed with my build… until I went up against a condi necro, who cleaned my clock. OUCH!

Those are some great suggestions, I’ll try them out.

EDIT: as a side note, if I’m facing ONE constant stunner like a hammer warrior, I’m only concerned if I have to cap a point desperately, as I can evade and cloak a great deal, the few times he hits me my MoA will help – I know this because I’ve done it. It becomes more complicated if I have to cap a point and cant maneuver, or if I am facing a warrior with a friend.

In fact, in some pvp, I faced two hammer warriors. That was fun. I was in a constricted area too, so maneuvering was difficult. I ended up being a ping pong ball! Kinda funny actually, but….

Ok, not in a dungeon so it doesn’t count, but here goes, my friend and I rockin’ our stormtrooper armor.

Cries Of Sorrow.5864:

Here’s my Warrior “Burning Paris” to resemble my love for France after an Arah P3 Solo-Run.

ok wait. An arah solo run? Ok, I know I’m not a pro player, but how the heck? What kind of build can do arah solo, particularly lupi?

(sorry for off topic, just kinda surprised by that)

calavel.6249:

Morfedel.4165:

Mostly, I expect a thief will run, but that’s fine too. I just don’t want to go down, and if the thief DOESNT run, maybe this setup will beat him.

I’m not going to tell you how to play the game, so I’m not going to say that this statement is in some way wrong, because it really is subjective.
But (assuming we are talking about WvW) I simply don’t understand why people build to troll, or to end in a stalemate, or to be able to run away from 1v1 or 1v2 fights with neither side getting any kills and achieving nothing. Denying your opponent kills is pointless if you also don’t get a kill. If you are roaming simply to duel, at least build so you can reliably kill/stomp people. Fighting troll builds is pointless and annoying and running them is equally pointless.

But that’s just my opinion.

This is not mesmer criticism btw, it is equally horrible when a thief stealths and runs at the first sight of an enemy. Unless that person is a dedicated scout communicating with commanders he is just wasting his own time and everyone else’s.

I’d rather get a kill, but I think that most stealth spamming thieves, if they decide they are losing, can just escape no matter what I do, unless they are “stupid” or “courageous” enough to stick through the fight.

In other words, I can’t force a victory with a stealth spamming thief, unless they choose to stick around. So, I have to go for the next best victory, that of driving them off.

Simonoly.4352:

If your build is very much designed to be anti-Thief, I would definitely recommend using Greatsword with your sword/torch. Spatial Surge and Mirror Blade are great skills to consistently keep pressure on a Thief that is kiting you and Illusionary Wave will allow you to knock a Thief out of Shadow Refuge. Also I’d swap out Mirror Images for Blink. You need something to put some distance between you and a Thief if you’re caught off guard.

interesting. Let me reply to you with the following:

1. I understand the idea of spatial surge, but i’m focusing on phantasms. Don’t you feel the iDuelist is superior to the Berserker in this instance?

2. I can see the blink being nice, but keeping the enemy confused with clones is nice too. I’ll have to try both up.

So, I went down to that underbelly where there are three capture points underneath where the aetherblades spawn. All three were controlled by OG, and I’m FR.

The first battle went as expected. But the second and third… the trolls would leap and hurl themselves… at Scarlet’s probes, then get hurled back.

They kept doing it, over and over. it was rather hysterical really….

Well, I tried several times to get into duels with thieves, but each time one side, the other, or both have interferred, but early experiments do appear promising.

More to the point, though, I was pleased when I fought two engineers and killed them both. They ganked me earlier when they took me by surprise and nailed me good in a part of EotM where I had no manevuering room and they were using some effect that kept yanking me back and forth.

I ran into the exact same pair on the plains between the Needle and the Needle reactor, and this time it was a different story. See, as I said I’m a strictly average player, and fighting 1v2 made me very nervous, but I was a bit out for blood, and I saw a chance for revenge… if I could pull it off.

They were both running with supply crates, flame throwers, bombs, I think with the kit refinement where when they drop a bomb it magnet bomb yanks you to them. But I was ready, if a bit nervous, this time.

I started out with a decoy. By this point i’d seen in pvp the trick where an engineer cloaks then flies a HUGE distance to their foe. I decoyed and ran past where I thought he’d be. I turned around and there he and his buddy was wailing on my poor decoy, heh.

From there started a dance of my cloaking and spinning out phantasms, the occasional clones as well, throwing off their scent. They kept on trying to get me into their turret nests with magnetic bomb kit refinement, but I kept my distance, edging in to throw out Phantasmal Mages and Phantasmal Duelists. They gave up and started pursuing me, I kept backing up, trying to keep out of range of flame throwers, watching for the gesture they would make for supply crates to dodge.

I think they finally gave up trying to get to me directly and went after my phantasms, but that seemed foolish, I just casted more. Rarely I’d be without phantasms, but I’d then pop clones and, when phantasms were recharged, I’d shatter then spin out the phantasms.

They got my health pretty low a few times, but they couldnt seal the deal. Honestly, I thought I was going to lose. I really did. Until the first engineer suddenly dropped… and I wasnt sure why, he just collapsed when I thought his health was higher, unless the confusion I had on him hit with some phantasms at the same time or some such… anyway, I went in and after one knockback I finished him off.

The second folded pretty fast after that.

Point being, I usually feel decent about 1v1, even thieves (except when they ambush me, sadly), but that 1v2 went far better than I’d suspected, I was very pleased.

I still want to try this against a thief, but I’m sold, heh.

and as promised, here is the build; note that the celestial trinkets are there because I USUALLY run with celestial armor, and while I have multiple sets of armor, I only have the one trinket set. Some of my gear are set they way they are because that’s just what I happen to have. In other words, the gear isn’t optimized for this build yet.

Anyway, I was pleased with the performance, and can’t wait to play the lame duck and lure some ambushing thieves out

But in the meantime, this is my pseudo-bunker anti thief phantasmal killer pu build :

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fgQQRAra8fnUE1UbRNi1wWbEx0jejCBuzMguor8BcD-jUDB4hYYLwIMBEtJRUDQ0GIkHBkABjIAO7pIaslNFRjVVjIqWfEDA-w

So, I’m an average player. Not terrible, not awesome. I also don’t frequent the boards, just come here off and on… so what I’m about to post may be a “no duh” thing for you guys.

With that in mind, I’ve been playing around with various builds in order to counter stealth spamming thieves. I know, I’ve read “oh they are easy to deal with” kinda thing, but that hasn’t always been the case for me.

Case in point, I was “dueling” one of these in Edge of the Mists, and I had two or three phantasms out. Three other players came to help, and after several minutes, he finally leaves.

Or so I thought. We lost sight of him, nowhere to be seen, so we go our separate ways. I was heading towards a group of veteran guards, was within seconds of them (I was actually heading past them, but you know…), and suddenly the thief appears right on top of me, pounds me, I desperately try to survive spinning out phantasms, dodging, etc.

This time he got me. Within breathing distance of those guards. Point being though, first time I was fighting him, I had seen him first and I did ok. Second time, though, he caught me by surprise and had me at half health before I even got a response up, and while I got a few hits in, he had me.

So, I started playing around with builds. I’m somewhat familiar with the idea of the PU with on death of clone/illusion triggers, but I thought a better idea would be phantasms, not only because phantasms can keep auto targeting and hitting for some real damage from a distance, but it seemed to me that conditions wont matter much if the thief just recloaks and washes them off.

But I also have to be able to survive that initial ambush.

So, I started out with a mostly defensive build (link at the end of this post to the build), PVT armor, runes of the dolyak, signet of ether, traits including regen <75% health, phantasms grant regen, protection granted when regenerating, illusionary defense, mender’s purity, prismatic understanding, and mirror of anguish.

Everything else basically went into buffing up phantasms. But the idea here is that if a thief comes out of stealth with a CC hit, it will reflect on him (MoA), I have two stun breakers, I can immediately cloak and spin out phantasms, meanwhile getting not only two sources of true regeneration, plus some Protection and the random boons from PU, but also the constant healing granted by Signet of Ether and Runes of the Dolyak.

The phantasms come out, and we start playing a game of attrition, where my phantasms can hammer him enough when he comes out, while my defensive setup keeps me alive, particularly when cloaking myself. I can’t maintain the stealth he can, but possibly I can maintain enough to survive and take him down.

Mostly, I expect a thief will run, but that’s fine too. I just don’t want to go down, and if the thief DOESNT run, maybe this setup will beat him.

I went AFK right at the portal precisely one time… My GF and I were having a heated “discussion” that warranted my immediate attention, right after I earned my second group bag. I sat the rest of the time at the portal. Came back at “resurrection beach” lol

As a side note, hey, what happened to that living hobo that was with him at scarlet’s and during christmas?

Someone told me there was a data mining result that found a reference to Hero-tron or he-ro-tron or something like that, but I’m not sure if that was accurate or a false rumor.

Frankly, I don’t always use PU; I don’t always use Deceptive Evasion. I don’t always use condition builds.

But the naysayers are missing the point. Getting mad at thieves for using their stealth skills is like getting mad at warriors for using their adrenaline skills. Come on, get real.

Mesmers were by design supposed to defend themselves with clones and invisibility. That was BY DESIGN, and yet now people are complaining that things like PU and DE are crutches or otherwise cheesy.

Think they are broken? suggest changes to the developers – they have on rare occasions actually implemented suggested changes! As it is, if they think something is too powerful, you can bet they will nerf it in time.

Of course, that requires they agree with you that it’s too powerful. As it is, they are already discussing a change to DE….

Revelations.3154:

Sigh… I knew this day would come eventually… where I would have to break my silence.

The Mesmer community has been in denial long enough! Prismatic Understanding IS A CRUTCH! Deceptive Evasion IS A CRUTCH!

Crutch : 1. a long stick with a crosspiece at the top, used as a support under the armpit by a lame person.

These 2 traits have been supporting our increasing reliance on Survivability

With DE being the longest running of the crutches but I digress lets focus on PU.
In the context of WvW roaming, About 6 months ago I remember my first duels with the pioneers of the PU build. They knew back then it was stupid easy to troll 2-4 players trying to play whack-a-clone while the popping in and out of stealth executing and negating attacks at the same time. Whether you tried to get them with brute force or condi they could reset with the application of stealth.

Now here we are 6 months later and many Mesmers are still clinging desperately to this trait amongst others all for the sake of survivability. You think I’m wrong? How many Mesmers continue to wrack their minds over placing 20 in dueling just to gain access to DE? Why? Because it adds a modicum of survivability to the Mesmer by target breaking. Next, PU on top of utility of our stealth mechanic which are mostly defense based, we get defensive boons to further bolster survivability. Even excrement has a modicum of nutritional value but you won’t catch me eating it!

So what happened? As other classes where buffed/defined or just better at hard countering what we offer as a profession. We remained stagnant to the point that we have to rely on cheesey gimmicks to just survive long enough to execute abilities and remain competitive.

We are now in this place for the following reasons; the Mesmer community is stagnating, and now we are choosing to perpetuate ignorance and name calling over dynamic innovation. There are 2 spheres of thought in this thread that can be summed up in a statement: "Is survival and doing anything for the sake of survival skill? Or is executing a strategy based on a balanced set traits and utilities skill?

My personal opinion on PU is that people are willing to defend a lackadaisical approach to Mesmer combat becoming no more than butterfly themed thieves. Having the audacity to laud PU as “strategy” and/or skill is laughable. Call it elitist but I dare you to post video of duel with a competent player without DE or PU let’s see how long you last.

Alas that is the current state of Mesmer call it what you will. I will still call them crutches, A-net gave us these “tools/traits” but they have to do better we have to continue to challenge them to do better even if we do not see immediate results… We need to be unified as a community, we need to be educated as a community and realize that Mesmer is not in a place where we want it.

Patently ridiculous.

Is the heavy armor of a warrior a crutch? Is the thief’s stealth a crutch? Is the necromancer’s Deathly Shroud a crutch?

Every class has features, gear, skills, and traits that have their role; survivability being one of them. Why you think somehow it’s ok for other classes while making ours a crutch just boggles the mind.

kylwilson.9137:

Morfedel.4165:

I run mesmer all the time, its my main. I don’t use PU very much because it just isn’t my style.

However, I feel almost obligated to do so because of stealth spamming thieves. Every time I get into a battle with one, if i’m not also running heavy stealth, it feels like I don’t have much of a chance.

Really, i consider that more of a problem with thieves than mesmers. I’d love to actually be able to 1v1 a thief without feeling like I have to run stealth myself to do it.

I’ve recently considered running a really tanky build with phantasms, as they will auto attack thieves soon as they come out of stealth. So, I’m running tanky armor, runes of the dolyak, regen traits from both inspiration and chaos lines plus the protection trait from chaos, sigil of ether, etc. Several sources of healing and regeneration, plus heavy toughness, see if that will let me survive without having to resort to stealth too much heh

oh, and mirror of anguish. If the thief jumps on me out of stealth with CC, he can share in the pain, heh

I simply pop an iDuellist whenever I see a theif and from then on the fight is essentially won, particularly when combined with the Duellist’s Discipline trait which is just ridiculously fantastic and is something I take over PU constantly.

To bring it back to the topic though; I do chuckle to myself when people complain about PU in various scenarios:

- The complaint often comes from a WvW standpoint which in its-self means absolutely diddly-squat, seeing as WvW is barely considered any from of legitimate ‘PvP’ – which is saying something, as sPvP is in a miserable state (although I still use it as a benchmark for any serious balance complaints)

and my personal favourite and an increasing occurence

- If an enemy team-mate in sPvP is running PU, the match is essentially a <5 vs 5 match, seeing as they have literally nothing to contribute in conquest modes which is; yes that’s right, the only mode available in PvP.

tl;dr, PU based builds don’t actually contribute any PvP scenario that matters, and furthermore playing one will only handicap yourself and make you a worse player.

Honestly, I’m not sure iduelist TRAIT is necessary against a thief. If he is stealthing a lot, you dont need the faster recharge time, and if you stay near your phantasmal duelists you dont need the extra range either heh

EDITED to include I was referring to the trait. Oops!

calavel.6249:

Morfedel.4165:

However, I feel almost obligated to do so because of stealth spamming thieves. Every time I get into a battle with one, if i’m not also running heavy stealth, it feels like I don’t have much of a chance.

I honestly don’t get this. I hear this “thief perma stealth” argument all the time and it makes no sense to me. Thieves stealthing is not a problem. Thieves do 0 damage while they are in stealth. Mesmers can apply bleed stacks from clones or DPS from phantasms while they stealth. Thieves can only run and hide or try to set up a sneak attack.
Yes, backstab hurts but it’s the only trick high crit thieves have. Find ways to deal with it and they will be forced to run or have a straight fight (which they will likely lose).
And let’s not also forget the fact that stealth drops target. This is a problem with thieves because you have to find and call them when they come out of stealth. But with stealthing mesmers this becomes even harder because not only do you have to find the right target among 2-4 identical ones, you have to keep doing it every time they come out of stealth.

Oh, and please don’t start lecturing me about how easy it is to tell a mesmer apart from clones. Yes, it’s reasonably easy but:
a) hotkey targeting means possibly cycling through targets before getting the right one
b) click-targeting is unreliable, especially in groups.

all of this wastes up to several seconds where you are trying to get a target instead of doing something useful. Granted, this is not so much of a problem if you are not playing in a group, but trying to call/find target on a stealthy mesmer is generally a pain.

When a thief can pop out of stealth, hit you for half your health and immediately restealth, heal up, come out and finish the job, yeah it is a problem.

And while in stealth they have time to identify which is the real one very easily.

I run mesmer all the time, its my main. I don’t use PU very much because it just isn’t my style.

However, I feel almost obligated to do so because of stealth spamming thieves. Every time I get into a battle with one, if i’m not also running heavy stealth, it feels like I don’t have much of a chance.

Really, i consider that more of a problem with thieves than mesmers. I’d love to actually be able to 1v1 a thief without feeling like I have to run stealth myself to do it.

I’ve recently considered running a really tanky build with phantasms, as they will auto attack thieves soon as they come out of stealth. So, I’m running tanky armor, runes of the dolyak, regen traits from both inspiration and chaos lines plus the protection trait from chaos, sigil of ether, etc. Several sources of healing and regeneration, plus heavy toughness, see if that will let me survive without having to resort to stealth too much heh

oh, and mirror of anguish. If the thief jumps on me out of stealth with CC, he can share in the pain, heh

To be honest, sometimes its just easier for the defeated individual to wp than it is to be rezzed. I try my best, especially if the individual is downed, but it takes so long to revive a defeated individual while in battle that its often just faster for the individual to wp and run back.

Besides, from a story standpoint, if we are trying to save all these citizens from the miasma, we need to concentrate on defeating certain key events to, you know, give us time to save the city – killing mobs and slowing the miasma takes precedence.

For myself, if I am defeated in a big battle, if the battle is close to being won I just stick around and usually get a revive after its done. If its not that close, then I’ll wp and run back.

And I don’t have a problem with that.

I’m working on that stupid set of Spool of Silk Weaving Thread that i can only craft one per day, so I can make the Bolts of Damask.

And in the meantime, discovering I have 877 bolts of.. silk I think it is… and 79 bolts of linen isnt enough and have to start farming for those too.

Or I could spend 13+ gold a piece. no thanks, lol

Yup, I got stuck there too, with two friends, thinking a rubble piece would be in there. Tried everything, including Blink, to get out. Nada.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

My question is…. why was the destruction of the ruins deemed so necessary? What point does it make?

If is was done to make Scarlet somehow more villainous, it failed. She is still a joke, and I blame the people who scripted it. Fact is, my resentment at all the destruction, kessex, LA, is laid at the feet of the writing team. Scarlet is too shallow, too unbelievable, too much godmod to ever take seriously, and so my animosity that should be pointed at her, isn’t.

All I am seeing is what looks like a desperate effort to make her believable. Blow up and destroy enough, and we will take her seriously? No. There isn’t enough content in this game you can destroy, there aren’t enough likeable NPCs to murder, you just cant DO enough “bad” things to make Scarlet anything but ludicrous. You are destroying for nothing.

GG

Scarlet is basically the Joker. Joker is cool, IMHO. She’s not only doing the same thing, she even has a marginally passing resemblance.

I do kind of dislike the fact she is so uber with everything she does: a super “scientific” genius who also excels at getting all these disparate factions together.

However, that being the case, I do not find her two dimensional, silly, or boring, any more than I do the Joker.

But to each their own.

PeterThomas.7243:

Zera Allimatti.2541:

The issue I have is that there is very little left of the original game for continuity’s sake, and it seems that the game is no longer about the player on an individual level…

To be fair, the game IS set two hundred years after the first game. A lot of stuff can happen in-between. The way the game was at launch seemed to fit the lore just fine.

With that said, though, I do agree with your sentiments about how the Living Story is ruining the game. I would be fine with them destroying Lion’s Arch if it was part of a story that made sense, but unfortunately that’s not what we got…

I also agree that the game is just becoming a big zerg fest (think: Tequatl, wurm, marionette, mad king’s labyrinth 2.0, tower of nightmares, clockwork chaos, and now escape from L.A.). When was the last time they added content that was friendly to casual players or small groups? Twilight Assault? That was nearly five months ago… The new way of doing things seems to be open world zergs, where you become a faceless number in a swarm of 100+ people while you spam your first skill. It’s really not satisfying.

Hm.

You may have a point. But they wanted the Living Story to effect the entire world. What would you want, more stuff like the personal story?

Zylonite.5913:

My heart is already broken and I never even played GW1. It must really suck for you guys that loved GW1. I hear many good things about it that I am very close to buying the whole thing on steam….and switching to it….even on solo…at least maybe I get a bit of story out of it….because 2k hours of GW2 and I still have no clue what is going on….

Thats odd. I followed the entire personal story from several different characters. It seems pretty obvious what’s going on.

Xiahou Mao.9701:

lazarus.1639:

Even the Great Northern Wall might not survive this year.

Stop destroying the old lore please.

I hope you can look back at what you wrote and see the irony there.

What is the ‘lore’ of the Great Northern Wall? Well, it just so happens that in the original game, it was destroyed by the Searing. For you to complain now about the potential destruction of something that was already destroyed in the game you’re nostalgic for is more than a little silly.

If anything, this attack on Lion’s Arch is very much staying true to Guild Wars tradition. Things get destroyed. Everyone has fond memories of ‘pre-Searing’, the peaceful Ascalon that is lost once you reach a certain story step and that can then never be accessed again with that character. But the Searing happened. The game went on. Now it’s Lion’s Arch that’s being scorched. This is the kind of ‘nothing is sacred’ approach that the original game embraced. So why can’t you embrace it now?

Amen!

Mr Bimble.2764:

What dragons?

Oh you know, Zhaitan, the claw of jormag, the shatterer, tequatl, etc etc. I know, they’ve only been there since the beginning, they are easy to miss.