Guild Wars 2

Nope… not even close.

I think someone mentioned earlier in the thread about the investment we must make deep into our trait lines to make many of our options borderline viable. This applies directly to the false claims of versatility.

Moreover, the engineer needs an entire trait revamp that will provide enhancements to entire lines of the profession… A simplistic example would be a trait that provides a 10-15% damage buff for all kits or all weapons, or 20% reduction on cooldown for all kits/weapons, 25% speed bonus both in and out of combat when any kit is equipped. You get the point.

On that note, equipping a kit should give an automatic stat bonus… i.e., 200 to healing when medkit is equipped… precision for flamethrower, 200 toughness for toolkit, etc.

I haven’t thought this all the way through, but why aren’t our kits accessable in the F1-F4 like the elementalist’s? The corresponding toolbelt skill should become utility skills.

Just some suggestions, feel free to pick them apart.

Chickenshoes.6250:

engineer is the class for you!"*

However, I could have fun playing with my toys instead of doing damage if all my toys weren’t the cheap kind that look fun but really aren’t. Setting up insidious landmines to screw everyone over sounds really fun, but they completely and totally suck for everything but surprising the enemy since he has no idea what blew him back as it’s never happened to him before.

Turrets seem really fun, but they’re made cheap and fall apart as soon as they leave the package.

Gadgets sound like fun. You tear off the little advertisement off the skills page, send in your skillpoints, and get sent back some cheap chachki with a letter weeks later saying “sorry, elementalists got the versatility.”

Kits are fun, but it’s like a set of toys you’ve lost some of the pieces to. Some of the pieces are still there and working, but the others are placeholders made of playdough.

This is exactly the problem, and the reason why I created the thread. On paper the engineer profession looks so enticing, but in practice it falls so far short of the mark. Yes there are parts of the class that you can use to be effective, but so much of what brought me to the class just doesn’t pan out.

Supply drop outshines our other options by a mile.

tigirius.9014:

WoW’s early druid

I made the EXACT comparison in another thread (engineer to vanilla WoW druid).

Why am I always drawn to classes that look so good on paper but in practice fall so short of the mark.

Cribbage.2056:

In WvW, I’d say being second best at everything is a positive.

If only this were true.

It isn’t.

We are no longer second best for AoE dps.

We are not second best for single target dps.

We are not second best for healing.

We are not second best for support buffs.

We are not second best for bunker build survivability (and yes that includes tankcat).

We are not second best for point scouting.

Really, we are not second best for anything, and many of those categories we are near or at the bottom of the list.

That being said, it doesn’t mean that you can’t be successful playing an engineer. The point of this thread wasn’t to claim that engineer can’t win fights, it was to warn new players to the game from considering the class to save them the frustration of bitter disappointment.

I hate to use a WoW reference, but the engineer reminds me of the Druid at release of vanilla WoW, only the engineer doesn’t have a comparable innervate spell that makes them a must have.

I rolled a thief… got it to 80 and geared it out with two full sets of exotics. Working on my third as I try out new thief builds. I also started an elementalist.

To the blackgate D/D elementalist nice fight. Was close!

To the SoR Warrior from [FEAR] Good fight. I wish we could have finished it 1v1.

To the SOR engineer that I just took down right before I got swarmed by your guildmates before I could get the stomp off, you put up good fight. It was fun.

Just finished my thief, and got it fully geared (minus ascended). Simply ridiculous as compared to the engineer, and it has more hitpoints.

It is going to be REALLY hard to justify playing the engineer in wvw now.

Arenanet, if you’re listening, fix the engineer class, or simply delete it.

My thief is about to ding 76.

My thief is about to ding 76… Give me a reason why I should stick with the engineer.

I decided play around with my lowbie thief again over the weekend. Got the thief up to 60 and I am amazed at how much for survivable a level 60 thief is in wvw as compared to my fully geared p/v/t and defensively traited engineer.

I mean seriously.

This thread NEEDS a sticky.

The facts really do speak for themselves. Check out that thread for more facts on why you should not roll an engineer if you are new to this game and considering a class.

gkaare.8576:

I. An Introduction
II. What’s wrong with Engineers?
III. Skills
IV. Traits
V. New Traits
VI. Downed State
VII. Underwater Combat
VIII. Elite Skills
IX. Things that are fine that you might think are bad

I. Introduction

Engineer has got some problems. Other classes aren’t just too strong (which is a huge problem), but we also do need a tiny boost in some areas; we’re not far from being a very balanced class.

In tPvP, Engineer is out of the meta. As the game has progressed, more and more players have found that playing an Engineer is the difficult way to get a job done. And, again, other overpowered classes are just completely nullifying Engineers in team fights and in 1v1.

While the profession is very versatile in how it can build, it is very limited by each build. For example, if I want to play high burst, I cannot still have huge control and support. Engineers choose how they want to play and then are limited by utility skills and weapon sets; this is by design. Engineers don’t get to swap weapons. If we want to emulate weapon swapping, we pick up Weapon Kits but then we lose some Utility Skill slots. That said, I genuinely don’t believe that the Engineer design philosophy fits with what the profession is right now.

That is why I’m making this post. Below are suggestions for the class that are not all necessary to bring us back to a competitive level. That said, this is also only the start. Some of them may even be too strong. Let’s talk about them.

II. What’s wrong with Engineers?

1. Bugs
   Engineers have an alarming number of class bugs that significantly affect their usability. This is the single biggest issue with Engineer right now. Without some bug fixes, Engineers will continue to be confused and underplayed.
2. Lack of accurate descriptions on traits and skills
   Another contributing factor to people being confused about Engineer. It’s difficult enough that many things are bugged, but the lack of proper descriptions leaves a lot of people who want to play Engineer completely in the dark about how the class is intended to function. This leads to a lot frustration. Some of the above mentioned bugs are definitely not bugs and I’m aware of that. But I can’t argue that they’re not bugs when the descriptions leave a lot to guessing.
3. Weak traits
   Many of our tier 3 traits simply lack the power to be in tier 3. This is seen by comparing our traits to other classes and even our own traits. In this post I will make suggestions for these.
4. Lack of survival options
   We do have some great survival traits but they are very limiting and pigeon-holing. For example, if we want condition removal, Alchemy traits and Elixir skills are the best and only way for reliable condition removal. We need more active AND passive condition removal outside of these options. Suggestions below.
5. Low damage
   Mesmer and Thief have incredible survival tools and this allows them to play as classes with the best damage and the best survival at the same time. Engineers don’t need their damage output to match these classes, but we do need some help to make our balanced builds more threatening without being overpowered.
6. Weak Kits
   This is why we have low damage. You’re probably aware that Engineers don’t get to switch weapon sets in combat. Even if we could, we only have 3 weapons we can use. Kits are incredibly important for our utility but many skills on kits are bugged or weak and they don’t offer proper supplements to our weapon sets.
7. Bugs?
   Did I mention there are a lot of bugs? They are in desperate need of attention.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/PvP-What-s-wrong-with-Engineer-Let-s-talk/first#post1071827

Not really… although it does have 10 stacks of vulnerability from analyze.

Utility goggles

mifbifgiggle.6713:

I don’t understand how you can be such a veteran of mmos but still be so bad at playing an engi.

I’m not sure if this post was directed at me, but if you go back to reread my original post I specifically stated that I make the most out of the limitations inherent to the engineer profession, and win WAY more 1v1 encounters than I lose.

In order to do this however, in most instances, even against unskilled opponents, you have to do MUCH more to win. Why is this? Because the engineer is significantly under-powered in comparison, many of the core elements of our design are bugged, and/or are not working as intended. In addition, the devs keep killing the profession with 1,000s of cuts. For example, have you ever heard ANYONE complain about how overpowered grenades were, and how they needed a nerf. No. Because they were never overpowered. In beta out pistol damage was nerfed. Elixir gun heals have been nerfed. The list of unresolved bugs has a stickied thread that is pages long. Frustrating doesn’t begin to describe it.

To compensate for these issues I have created a VERY narrow build breaking down the engineer profession into its most basic terms in order to achieve that success. In doing so I had to forgo most of what appealed to me about the engineer profession in the first place.

This is the point of the thread… not that engineers can’t succeed: we can.

We just have to be more skilled to do it, and even then there are going to be some match-ups that you simply will have very little (if any) success against.

Cheers.

PotatoOverdose.6583:

In a game consisting of nothing but hybrid classes, we are the only class that pays hybrid tax. And we aren’t even the most versatile of the hybrids. Or the most powerful in offense or deffense Will a good engineer prevail over a mediocre ele? Sure, but a good player from profession x will always prevail over a mediocre player from profession y.

So true.. so true indeed.

And to the kitten posters in this thread, reread my original post. I readily admit that I do win the majority of my 1v1 encounters, but that is in spite of the engineer profession not because of the engineer profession.

To the person who said maybe engineer isn’t for me, I’m one of the very first engineers ever created in this game, play the class as my main and win WAY more than I lose.

I’m not quitting the profession, just warning people away from the class who are fooled by the lure of broken promises, and unfulfilled potential.

So I repeat myself, if you want to play a profession that requires you to work harder than most simply to be on less than equal footing, roll an engineer.

Roll it if you are interested in the challenge of being the underdog.

But caveat emptor… let the buyer beware.

TurtleMuncher.9750:

If you want to roll an engi, be prepared to put in effort and get stomped on early on. Its a continous learning process and even now I’m still seeing lolwtf builds being experimented on. Once you played like 100 hours you gain an appreciation for the addictive playstyle the engineer provides.

This is so true.

I’ve play with a razer nostromo game pad, razer naga mouse, and razer deathstalker keyboard. I have every single key mapped out which allows me to never have to lift my hand from wasd (which is at my thumb) to hit any keybinding and have every single keybinding memorized from muscle memory. I control F1-F4 with my right hand on the mouse, and 1-0 with my left fingers (wasd jump and tab are all with my thumb).
With that said, if I take a day off playing the engineer I can visibly see my performance decrease.

I can take 2 months off playing a thief/warrior and it is as if I never left the class.
So yes, the engineer is exponentially more complicated, and it requires perfect execution to be 80% of what can be done on the top tier classes.

I’ve learned the enigeer class inside and out. I also play with a razer nostromo game pad, razer naga mouse, and razer deathstalker keyboard. I have every single key mapped out which allows me to never have to lift my hand from wasd (which is at my thumb) to hit any keybinding and have every single keybinding memorized from muscle memory. I control F1-F4 with my right hand on the mouse, and 1-0 with my left fingers (wasd jump and tab are all with my thunb).

With that said, if I take a day off playing the engineer I can visibly see my performance decrease.

I can take 2 months off playing a thief/warrior and it is as if I never left the class.

So yes, the engineer is exponentially more complicated, and it requires perfect execution to be 80% of what can be done on the top tier classes.

I still play the engineer (almost 700 hours played), but please don’t come to these boards and tell people that balance is hard so it is ok that the engineer player has too do WAY more to get significantly less.

SoulstitchMMO.1396:

I have a fully geared out level 80 thief. A fully geared out level 80 mesmer. Both are faceroll easy in wvw. I love my engineer, because it requires more thought. I actually have to think intstead of just stack up 25 bleeds on a person, or 15 confusion stacks and watch them die.

This is exactly my point. You like engineer because it is inferior to other classes, which is a completely valid reason to like the profession.

If you want a challenge by playing an inferior class, look no further than engineer.

If you want a class that is on par with the other elite classes, do not roll an engineer.

Please refrain from name calling. This thread is full of useful information and opinion. We don’t want to get it locked because people can’t behave themselves.

@OP

This game was built on the premise of the elimination of the holy trinity. It failed.

It is not whining to point out the flaws inherent to the engineer profession.

As for a build… I recommend that you go to the sticky portion of the engineer forum and/or use the search function, rather than insulting people on the forum from whom you are seeking help.

MrSilver.5269:

I admit that I do have success playing the profession despite the profession’s disadvantages.

MrSilver.5269:

Take this as a warning from someone who continues to stick it out on an engineer despite it being sub-par.

Just quoting myself because I wanted to reemphasize the previous two points in response to a couple of the comments that have ensued since my original post.

As an experienced engineer I’m not rerolling and I’m toughing it out despite the disadvantages that the profession clearly is forced to endure.

At release I was this " – " close to rolling a warrior, and if I knew then what I know now I would NOT have rolled the engineer.

Why am I not rerolling? Because I get attached to my characters. My engineer has 100% world completion… don’t want to do that again. I’m fully geared (minus ascended) with multiple sets. I can’t stand leveling and don’t ever want to level another character again in this game. I don’t like playing unfinished characters. Bottom line… I made my bed. I know there are many people that don’t mind leveling new characters. I’m just not one of them.

That said… if I could give Arenanet $100.00 to swap my engineer for another profession the money would already be spent.

So to the person who is just buying this game, and is considering the engineer because on paper the profession looks appealing don’t make the same mistake that I made, unless you enjoy being the underdog playing an underrepresented class. If you don’t mind being underpowered, go for it.

If you want to be on equal footing with the other top tier professions that simply offer more steer clear of the engineer.

I know when I come to a game that is already in progress I like to hear what veteran players think of classes, and I thought I would give them the benefit of thoughts from an individual with nearly 700 hours played on an engineer.

Roll warrior, thief, elementalist, or mesmer.

Seriously.

I’m creating this thread for people that are just purchasing this game as a warning so that they do not consider rolling an engineer. As a caveat, I only play wvw so I’m not able to intelligently comment on how the class performs in pve and spvp.

For some background, I have been playing mmos since 1999, and have played virtually every single major title released during this period. I’ve been playing an engineer as my main since the 2nd beta world event. I’ve logged over 600 hours on it. I’ve tried virtually every single build there is, experimented extensively with all of our kits, gone pistol/pistol, pistol/shield, and rifle, have multiple sets of exotic gear, tried maximizing turrets, and have used both elixirs and gadgets. I’ve tested everything, and I try to squeeze every ounce out of my spec through theorycraft. I admit that I do have success playing the profession despite the profession’s inherent disadvantages.

That all said, the engineer plain and simply does not stack up against most other professions that are equally played and geared. It just doesn’t. I don’t want that to be true, but it is. In most cases you simply have to play flawlessly to beat other classes.

In addition, the class is riddled with bugs, which the developers have completely ignored, instead rolling out wave after wave of n-erfs in every patch. The recent adjustments that have been made to the profession do not in any way bring us up to par with warriors, thieves, elementalists, and mesmers. If anything they put us further behind.

Also, the engineer does not bring the same level of support and versatility to a group that other classes are able. The truth of the matter is that we are a second rate profession that will remain so for the foreseeable future.

Do not be fooled by the people who will chime in on this thread saying that the engineer class is fine, and l2p. I know how to play. I also know that when I get on a thief or warrior it is complete easy mode in comparison.

The only reason to play the engineer class is if you like playing the underdog, and can deal with the reality that if you aren’t absolutely perfect in many encounters you will lose.

Take this as a warning from someone who continues to stick it out on an engineer despite it being sub-par.

Roll a warrior, thief, mesmer, or elementalist if you are considering the engineer class.

Just trust me and you will be glad you did.

I’m playing around with the build some more. It is interesting.

That’s the problem… instead of fixing what doesn’t work, they destroy what does.

Trying the build out… I swapped personal battering ram for riffle turret though. But so far enjoying the build.

Can you link the build aydeunited?

So are you referring to a superior energy / invigorating speed / speedy kits (or 6/6 rune of cent) build?

Thank you for your kind response!!!!

@Ahmajo

I am extremely effective playing my engineer despite the n-erfs and bugs.

That’s not the point.

Why don’t you understand the point we are making…

…or are you just trolling the thread?

I’m in the process of testing and they don’t seem to proc when I switch from kit to weapon. What am I doing wrong?

ahmajo.3159:

maybe you outta try different build, seems like the people who are the loudest are reminiscing overpowered grenades. Seems like to me, people aren’t diversifying their builds.

I don’t use grenades for my main spec.

But I still don’t want to see them n-erfed into the ground.

672 hours on my engineer… I’m tired of seeing my class weakened, and the obvious bugs ignored.

And level 63 engineer, come back to the thread at 80 after you have seen some end-game content please.

I’ll never run another kit, other than med-kit, until something is done.

tigirius.9014:

There’s a limit and it’s been reached. They fix all the underwater stuff, nerfed us to practically impossible play, meanwhile they ignored everything else. Juse because one is skilled in getting around the nerfs and misses doesn’t mean it’s not wrong of them. And doesn’t mean we shouldn’t unite asking for change.

This exactly the reason for this thread.

Thanks for posting your thoughts!

Once again, you missed the point…

WHICH IS:

Every patch they n-erf the engineer class.

It needs to stop.

Why is it that the engineer is required to execute to perfection to compete with virtually every other class?

I think you missed the point. Not surprising.

It is time that engineers take a stand and make our voices heard. We need to let the Dev team know that we are unhappy with the path this class has taken.

I am here to take a stand and speak out in display of solidarity with my engineer grenade and elixir kit brethren.

First they N-erfed pistols,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t using pistols.

Then they came for juggernaut,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t using flamethrower.

Then they came for the grenades and elixir gun,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t using them either.

Then they came for my build,
and there was no one left playing engineer to speak for me.

I only play wvw so I can’t comment on how badly the ’nade nerf hurts in pve. I have been running a very simplistic nonkit rifle balanced build for roaming behind the lines wvw for the past month or so I was able to dodge the N-bat this round.

That said, I’m extremely frustrated that I will no longer have the option to switch into a viable ‘nade build for castle sieges. I’m one of the few people I know that play an engineer, and have no desire to reroll.

So here I am speaking out in solidarity with my engineer grenade and elixir kit brethren.

First they N-erfed pistols,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t using pistols.

Then they came for juggernaut,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t using flamethrower.

Then they came for the grenades and elixir gun,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t using them either.

Then they came for my build,
and there was no one left playing engineer to speak for me.

The big question is will CD do any fighting this week or just camp the EBG jumping puzzle as usual? I’ll be in CDs BL all week if you are looking for me.

Kaminari.4018:

Karma is already a beezy to get. Gold is easy to make. 100 gold in two weeks if you play your cards right.

I’ve been playing this game since first day of pre-release, and the most gold I have EVER had at one time since hitting max level is 52.

100 g may be easy to get for hamsters, but for those of us that wvw, 100G might as well be 1,000.

..and I’ve got around 700 hours played.

Distaste.4801:

roguenub.1409:

If ascended gear was in the game on release, and the same means to get it , would you still have bought the game?

Why does everyone automatically assume people with ascended gear will just dominate you in WvW? You will get rolled on with all greens or all exotics / ascended either way, It’s mainly the numbers that count. If you don’t bother to play because the enemy slightly outgears you, then thats just dumb imo. "Ohhh I played hundreds of hours to get my full exotic gear, but now I can’t win because someone has more time to get slightly better stats than me =(((( ".

Getting ascended is a grind eh? It’s no less of a grind than getting your exotics.

It almost looks like people are just finding any reason to quit, and not willing to admit they got their money’s worth of the game. Same with this game and every other MMO game you’ve played, you get everything and you’ll have nothing left to do. You’ll get bored, and find something else to do.

If we had known about ascended gear and the grind to get it, I would not have bought GW2. It was sold to me as easy to get max stat gear with hard to obtain skins. I sold my friends on it specifically by telling them it wasn’t a WoW gear grind.

It does matter in WvW. Sure if you’re attacking 1v40 you’re going to get rolled, but quite often you will face even numbers. If 5v5, 20v20, 40v40, etc happens ascended gives an advantage. It is common sense that you want to give your opponents as little advantage as possible, thus you need to get ascended gear for that to be the case. There is a noticeable difference between rares and exotics so saying there isn’t much of a difference between exotics and ascended is a flat out lie. As for giving up because enemies have ascended, they are well within their rights. GW2 wasn’t supposed to have a gear grind for max stats and that helped promote WvW. Why continue to WvW when ArenaNet is going to continue to introduce new gear that upsets the balance of WvW. People already died way too fast in WvW and more stats means it will happen faster.

Getting ascended is no less of a grind than exotics, IT IS MORE OF A GRIND. I’m between hardcore and casual in my play and even I will admit that getting fully geared in exotics was probably too much of a grind for most casuals. Now you have ascended pieces that are harder to get than almost a full exotic set.

It is not an excuse to quit, it’s a reason. At worst, ArenaNet lied to people by going against their own philosophies on easy to obtain max stats with skin progression as well as grinding. At best, ArenaNet look incompetent not only for contradictory statements from before release to the IAMA, but for pushing out game mechanics that completely segregate and promote segregation the community. Either way people feel betrayed, like they are being looked down upon, and like they were lied too. If that’s not a valid reason to quit then what is?

I’ve currently quit for a myriad of reasons. Their poor handling of stat and class balance is a major factor. The lack of WvW development and support certainly pushed me as well. But the final straw that broke the camels back was ascended gear. It just flat out goes against what the developers said this game was about. I mean blatant contradictions from things they said earlier and after this whole thing broke are just staggering. “we don’t want grind” yet 250 ecto’s is clearly not a gigantic grind <_<. It just makes me feel like there is zero point in playing since the developers have absolutely no clue what direction they are heading in and anything that comes out of their mouths cannot be trusted.

Another fantastic post that perfectly reflects what so many of us in the WvW community are feeling.

Baron of Winters.5697:

People can be dismissive towards our concerns. But my decision to keep playing on occasion but never again visit the gem store will cost Anet a fair amount. I’m a 39 year old professional with not a lot of time, but plenty of disposable inome to spend on a hobby. With a static goal, I knew I would get there eventually, and I would spend money to get there a little faster. But with a diminishing return and a goal that recedes towards the horizon faster than I can progress, I won’t spend my real world currency on Anet anymore.

Thanks for the game, Anet – but the way you’ve set up the grind, I’ll log in once every couple of weeks, contribute very little to the in-game community, and you won’t see cash from me again.

Want to change that? Want to get players like me playing and paying you money again? Here’s what you do:

Accept that Ascended gear was a dumb move. But now that its out there, I understand that you have to keep it. Cap all infusions at the current level, and formally promise to never again increase infusion tiers (as well as gear tiers). Set the current bar (which you just raised) as the new and PERMANENT maximum. With those assurrances, I’ll start buying gems and playing again.

Otherwise, you’ve lost revenue from me. I’ll vote with my wallet.

I’m in EXACTLY the same boat, and already DID spend IRL money on gems to convert to gold so that I could purchase the exotic items for trinket slots. I only did this because I was lead to believe that I would NEVER have to upgrade those items again. I will never be deceived again into making a gem purchase with this company, as I have already spent my money under false pretenses.

It isn’t worth my time or effort to attempt to recoup these costs, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that this company has lost my trust.

I’m hanging around to see what I’ll have to do to obtain ascended items through alternative means. If it is too ridiculous of a grind that will be the final straw for me.

Listen up devs, you are bleeding customers, and many of us that have been playing mmos since the 90s are serious when we say that we will never play another treadmill.

Its your game. Do what you want with it, but as customers we also have the choice to spend our money elsewhere, and many of us have already made that decision.

Sky.9347:

Just thought I’d add some thoughts here.

First of all, I loved this game. I brought in other players, and family. I haven’t played at all since Nov. 15. My young son still plays, and I am glad he absorbs bandwidth and prevents other players from getting into WvW.

For those who truly don’t understand how some of us can have such a hard stance on this, please realize that vertical and horizontal progression are mutually exclusive. It’s one or the other, never both (for the same content).

Most people have not paid as close attention to his as I and others like me have. You guys are wrong on so many fronts. Here are a couple:

No more tiers: wrong, they will be using Infusion to continue the VP until expansion time. Confirmed on Reddit.

Gear is optional: wrong, when the desire is to get to max stats and then play the game on equal footing, no stat increase is optional

Doesn’t gate content: wrong, even though the current gating is very limited, it is impossible to continue adding new challenging content without balancing that content around the current max stats. Every single content patch must increase the gear-gate, or else the content would become trivial to anyone in max stat gear

ANet won’t add more: wrong, Mike O’Brien himself stated that VP is important, and will be a major part of the future of GW2. He even said that GW1 was stagnant and not fun.

ANet didn’t break their word: wrong, you can twist words all you want but I have been following these guys for a decade now. These are the guys who told us what was wrong with the MMO market, and how they were going to fix it.

They had to do this, no other choice: wrong, ANet never released a single horizontal progression content patch. Never, not once. The first content patch introduced VP. They never even tried, they just gave up and went the easy route (not my words, THEY called this the easy route)

GW2 doesn’t need you: time will tell, but I will say this… when the bugs are too much, and the content is too little, the MMO Locusts will move on to another game. They always do, it should be expected. GW2 would have been fine though because it had a strong and loyal community who were willing to pull out their pocketbooks and keep this game going. They’ve lost that, and all they have left are people who are basically indifferent or looking for the next-best-WoW.

Fantastic post.

Sums it up perfectly!!!

The problem is that the other side just doesn’t get it, or doesn’t want to get it because they need the carrot.

Avatar.1923:

mrsilver…

thats a sad story….

why do you keep playing ??

Because I’m a gamer, and I need my crack.