Guild Wars 2

I agree that slotting 1 or more elixirs is mandatory for a competitive tournament build.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Maybe Engineers need to start to accept that four-kit builds are really just a gimmick and not how the Engineer is intended to be played.

It’s possible that the devs are actively against letting 4-kit builds be our strongest, as they are ridiculously difficult to play. I’m a little confused about the word “gimmick” here. To my understanding, a gimmick is a cheap trick or loophole. That’s…pretty much the opposite of a 4-kit playstyle.

Just for clarification, “top stat” refers to “most revives,” “most captures,” etc. It doesn’t mean you’re at the top of the score chart. You’re probably already aware of that, just making sure.

Ostricheggs.3742:

100%. There is no doubt in my mind it will be nerfed eventually. It is the best build in the entire game.

People have recently started to cry about it too. Even if it is the hardest build to play in the game, it WILL be nerfed. My only fear is that we’re left like warriors with no other alternatives that remain competitive in tourneys.

I agree with you but I would emphasize “eventually.” Since HGH was literally just buffed to its current state a few months ago, I have a hard time believing the devs will bring themselves to retract their buff any time soon. That just looks very, very bad to customers.

Add in the fact that people are really only complaining about HGH engineers at the very top level of tournaments. They are considered weak in WvW (I don’t believe they are, but certainly no one is complaining about them). HGH is deadly in an organized team vs. the current FOTM comps (read: multiples of the exact builds that are weak to condi burst). Other than that, it’s just another build.

So I would say that in a few years, when no one is complaining about eles and everyone has forgotten that Anet buffed HGH to what it is now, they will nerf it, if it stays popular that long.

I use sigil of battle in WvW because if my conditions are getting cleansed constantly, I’d rather have them hit a little harder than add the extra bleeding stacks that probably won’t last for full duration. If they aren’t getting cleansed constantly, I’ll win anyway.

I do agree with the evaluation of earth vs. geomancy.

kerona.3465:

Dontcha miss us?

Well, I made the mistake of trying to keep up with the old matchup thread. Sooo much talk. I like these guys. Log in, fight, log out. 1 line post on forums.

I just hope there’s good weeknight roaming in this matchup. I had some really fun < 5 person fights with Mag.

There’s nothing wrong with reporting for verbal abuse, if it’s really that serious. If it’s just annoying but not really abusive, right click —> ignore, or disable map chat.

Kimbald.2697:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Untraited grenades aren’t that awful, and you really only lose 33% effectiveness (2 grenades is 66% of 3 grenades…)

However, as others said, they’re probably not worth the slot untraited unless you just really need to be able to throw something at a wall. The huge advantage of grenades as a condition weapon is that every grenade inflicts vulnerability with steel-packed powder, so the damaging conditions are harder to remove.

this also means you need to go 25 points in Explosives line, or no vulnerability at all.
That little talent just before grenadier is also rahter important in a grenade build.

So going 25 points, but not 30…?

The difference between 20 points or 25/30 in Explosives is much more than 33% I fear.
That vulnerability helps every other damage dealer on that target as well. Multiple targets in the case of grenades.

Umm, I would never recommend to anyone to put only 25 points in explosives. My point was that even though you only lose 33% direct damage/chill duration/whatever from only having 10 in explosives, you lose the vulnerability. And that makes the grenades not worth the slot, since they are untraited.

NevirSayDie.6235:

…as others said, they’re probably not worth the slot untraited…

…The huge advantage of grenades as a condition weapon is that every grenade inflicts vulnerability with steel-packed powder…

Untraited grenades aren’t that awful, and you really only lose 33% effectiveness (2 grenades is 66% of 3 grenades…)

However, as others said, they’re probably not worth the slot untraited unless you just really need to be able to throw something at a wall. The huge advantage of grenades as a condition weapon is that every grenade inflicts vulnerability with steel-packed powder, so the damaging conditions are harder to remove.

That’s an old mesmer bug. The ability hits normally but appears incorrectly in the death breakdown.

Unfortunately, “smoke bomb” is actually their downed state #3 skill, phantasmal rogue. Yes, it hits that hard.

Rifle’s nice for leveling because power is faster than condition damage for killing things in low levels, plus rifle has great single-target cc for soloing champions or whatever challenges you like tackling. Pistol/shield is a great combination as well, but it will simply feel slow if you’re depending on your main weapons for most of your damage.

In PvP, I think you can make a case for rifle because getting the necessary condition damage/duration to actually damage anything is much more difficult. In PvE/WvW, condi all the way. Shield or OH pistol work fine.

Gravy.7589:

Mag’s EB faction by far has the most numbers. They can easily run 60 deep and look like tier 1/2 zergs yet they are not nearly as good at their BL teams. Mag will get hit pretty hard in EB, seeing as Yaks and DB both will match their mega zerg in numbers.

SBI has seen a big population increase this week in EB. Our zerg has hit 50 lemmings strong and during NA prime we don’t have any problems in EB and have taken SM almost every night. Most of our EB success can be attributed to DC and Bannok.
Our borderland commanders/teams REALLY struggle at times. Sometimes due to pop. difference or just outplayed. Very interested to see the new SoS and how they fare in this tier.

I agree with all of this. I’m considering trying to form a havoc guild for SBI just to get some better organization in borderlands. Of course, part of it is that even in primetime there are often only 15-20 people spread across all three borderlands (most in homeland, of course). Still, borderland management is SBI’s weak suit. Surely that wouldn’t be too difficult to improve?

Part of it is that we do have a couple of really great commanders who run the EB crew. No one can really fill those shoes other than themselves.

Engineers have received some huge bugfixes in the last six months, as well as a couple of straight-up buffs. There are still some bugs and issues with build variety (i.e. gadgets and turrets are generally not great) but overall engineers are in a good place.

For leveling, bomb kit is great and so is static discharge (10 in tools). Engineers do well leveling with almost any combination of stats, although for leveling power and toughness/vit are probably your best option. There are dozens of other ways to level, of course.

There are also still people who feel the engineer is completely sub-par. There are also plenty of people who feel the engineer is in a good place. There are also people who enjoy making fun of anyone who says the engineer is sub-par, although our number of locked/deleted threads has gone down recently.

Save them. I never thought I’d be interested by WvW, but recently I’ve seen it can be an avenue for good fights, not just zergs.

At the very least, they’re not hurting anything. They take no inventory space and are not that much different from other types of PvE currency, like gold, which I’ve hear many tournament players say they’d like to get from tourneys.

And they’re undeniably good for hybrid players and probably game longevity (see above post).

StealthSnake.9134:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Just had some excellent duels with the IKR thief on his guard alt (don’t know his normal character name). Thanks for the good fights, and for not ganking me while I was capping the camp. I’m a little surprised you followed me all the way from the center island, but hopefully it was worth it for the good duels.

His name is Triggerless. He loves his share of duels. I assume you’re the engineer that was at Mag bl, if so you’re pretty good.

Yup that’s me. I’ve taken to wandering alone in the mag BL recently. Thanks—I lost my fair share of the duels, though

aydenunited.5729:

NevirSayDie.6235:

It is possible to dodge a bounce, but I agree that it is harder to dodge (thus better from the engineer’s perspective). Also, I’m slowly getting better at fighting rangers and finding that killing the pet is often a great option for condi engineers. Not only do they lose the damage from the pets, they lose almost all of their cc and empathic bond. So if I can LoS the ranger and land a long burn and confuse on their dog, I do so. It’s not always best to kill the pets, of course, but if you’re in a situation where you can the rest of the fight is easy.

I swear to god when I read your posts I could swear that I wrote them. We must have almost identical playing styles.

Haha, I watched some of your videos of your old builds back when you posted them and I think we do have pretty similar styles. Saying that is pretty much me giving a compliment to me, because you recorded some pretty sweet fights. Okay, in reality your fights are much more epic than mine.

AllieMurdock.1785:

We’re reviewing Warriors and Elementalists as well. Perhaps we can get into that another time and in a different thread, though. As this thread is about Thieves, let’s keep it on track.

“People in the low tiers will always have trouble with something.”

Sure, but we still need to consider how the new player experience is going to be. Particularly when it comes to Thieves.

JonathanSharp.7094:

So with the Thief, we feel like their straight burst with some sets is too good as it is (Mug/C &D/BS/heartseeker), but a lot of other things are weak in comparison, which is bad.

The goal is to allow them to punish boons (something we also want to try with the Warrior) while also improving their mobility with all weapon sets (since Shortbow is already strong at that, but it overpowers other options).

As Allie said, we want to be careful to balance their WvW/PvE potential against their PvP potential, and then inside of PvP, we have to be careful to watch how they perform at high ranks vs. low ranks.

I know topics like this are difficult to address. Thanks for giving good responses. A lot of people get worked up over a misworded response, but the direction here seems very solid.

Just had some excellent duels with the IKR thief on his guard alt (don’t know his normal character name). Thanks for the good fights, and for not ganking me while I was capping the camp. I’m a little surprised you followed me all the way from the center island, but hopefully it was worth it for the good duels.

Eurantien.4632:

This is why they shouldn’t give us deadlines and soon is the best response.

I agree.

It is possible to dodge a bounce, but I agree that it is harder to dodge (thus better from the engineer’s perspective). Also, I’m slowly getting better at fighting rangers and finding that killing the pet is often a great option for condi engineers. Not only do they lose the damage from the pets, they lose almost all of their cc and empathic bond. So if I can LoS the ranger and land a long burn and confuse on their dog, I do so. It’s not always best to kill the pets, of course, but if you’re in a situation where you can the rest of the fight is easy.

One possible plus of making gates immune to everything except siege is that maybe then net turret wouldn’t feel obligated to waste its shots by constantly immobilizing gates.

Because being literally the only player from your server in an enemy borderland, taking supply, upgrading it, killing the small housekeeping crew that comes to take it back, and then taking more camps and then porting back to kill the housekeeping crew at the first one again is fun.

I think you can use shield just fine in a tanky condition build. I’m switching back and forth between p/p and p/s right now and can’t decide which one is better overall—some duels/situations seem to be better with shield, some with offhand pistol.

I am using a standard 30/10/0/30/0 trait distribution but am taking different traits than most. Forceful explosions, as well as incendiary powder and grenadier in explosives; in firearms, either reduced pistol cooldown or swiftness on crit, depending on if I’m using two pistols or p/s. In alchemy, auto elixir S, 409, and either protection injection or vigor on swiftness (if I’m using swiftness on crit in firearms).

Utilities are grenades, bombs, and elixir S. It’s true that it’s difficult to actually hit people with grenades and bombs. That’s why I’m still considering taking offhand pistol instead of p/s and perma-vigor—it’s just easier to hit people with blowtorch. On the other hand, fire bomb has a pretty big radius with forceful explosions and stacks a ton of burning, and you’ve got incendiary powder as well.

No HGH because there’s not room for enough elixirs to make it useful. I’m using runes of altruism with med kit, and sigil of battle to make up for a little of the lost might. If you go p/s and bombs, you can get two blast finishers in your fire field as well.

You can afford to be more tanky because you don’t need as much precision due to permanent fury. So I’ve got some vitality mixed in with rabid gear, and I’m planning to pick up the CD>tuf>vit>prec ascended amulet (I’m really liking the build so I think I’m gonna go ahead and invest heavily in it).

I’m refining a fairly tanky condition engineer build for WvW. I don’t think it’s possible in PvP because there are just fewer options. Even in WvW I’m realizing that I cannot make myself as tanky as I would like because I just can’t fit enough regen/extra healing in a build to have a chance at infinite sustain even in a 1v1 vs. another tanky build. But I think it is possible to have incredibly powerful conditions while still having good defensive skills, a very high health pool and a good amount of toughness. I think that is as close as I can come to the build I’d like to create.

I’m not really a fan of modes where the only goal is survival. Usually everyone who actually fights loses, while people who stealth/run/hide/heal win.

I am a fan of thinking of new game modes/ideas, though. I like this one, I just don’t think it would play out very well with the current available builds.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Ostricheggs.3742:

Whenever I die in a team fight retal is at the top when there’s a guardian there. Tough times.

You were hit by it 52 times and it still only did 12K damage.

Still do not see the issue here.

The issue is that in a very long teamfight he practically never got hit. Those 52 hits would have come in a few seconds if he placed his grenade barrage on a few people/pets. Retal was likely not up the entire time, just randomly off and on throughout the fight from people unintentionally using finishers in the guard’s light fields.

Targeting is the #1 reason preventing me from using turrets. In WvW, I don’t want my net turret to shoot coyotes, gates, or clones, period.

Phineas Poe.3018:

NevirSayDie.6235:

That was my point. It’s a counter to a single large attack. Retal was maybe intended to be a counter to fast attacks? Except it’s functionally a damage add, that’s just super effective vs. a few specific attacks.

I see Retaliation on my Guardian the same way as I see Confusion with my Engineer. It’s just a way to watch people kill themselves without me doing anything.

I don’t see the problem with this. If they want to change it to where it is dependent on the damage of the attack received, I’d be fine with that. But I think it’s fine as it is now too. Sorry.

And yet when I land confusion on an elementalist in tornado, it kills them very quickly because tornado procs confusion three times every second. It’s not that confusion is too strong, it’s that an odd mechanic makes it instant death in certain situations.

Engineer’s attacks are a really odd hybrid of range and melee. For example, the tournament build can throw grenades from 1500 range, but it takes several seconds for the grenades to travel that distance so they’re more effective at closer ranges.

So the best advice I can give you for fighting engineers is simply to not waste dodges when you could just walk away from the red circles. Engineers will save their most powerful grenades for when they get up close, so make sure you still have your dodges/blocks/invulns/evades when that happens. I’m not sure the exact numbers, but at 1500 range you should have about 3 seconds to move before the grenades land. At mid-range, maybe 600-900, you would have about 2 seconds. At point blank range, you still have about a second since the cast time on grenade skills seems to be just under 1 second each. But at point blank range, you’ll really need to dodge.

Engineers don’t have any gap closers (except for one pull in a build that doesn’t exist any more) so if you’re on your ranger/mesmer, just kite them. If you’re trying to hold a point with your guardian, that’s going to be harder. The engineer will go down very quickly if you call over a single teammate, but don’t expect to win the 1v1 in a traditional bunker build.

Other weaknesses: sustain is actually quite bad for HGH engineers. They have an RNG chance for regen, and other than that it’s just their 6 heal. CC is also becoming rare in engineer builds. Most will use p/p, nades, and elixirs, which doesn’t have any cc outside of a 1-second immobilize and a chill. Rifle variants have a lot more cc but are squishier and don’t put out as many conditions.

Phineas Poe.3018:

And Aegis blocks one attack. Not effective at all against Flame Jet.

That was my point. It’s a counter to a single large attack. Retal was maybe intended to be a counter to fast attacks? Except it’s functionally a damage add, that’s just super effective vs. a few specific attacks.

I think 2v2 or 3v3 would be great. I understand completely why they have shied away from GvG. The combat system is just better in small fights.

I would also be interested to see if the system could support 3-team games. It might be too much downed state management, though.

I have also noticed seeing the “immune” message while fighting other engineers recently. My theory is that the message pops up whenever the 15-point alchemy trait “transmute” procs. I believe it will also appear when attempting to blind an engineer with utility goggles, but very few engineers use goggles.

So there’s no change or bug, but the game now seems to inform you when one of your conditions fails vs. an engineer (8% chance).

Phineas Poe.3018:

Do you really think when you write stuff like this you think you’re coming off as constructive?

And you wonder why no one feels like posting here any more.

In answer to the original topic, engineers are usually less played in most MMOs because people like hitting stuff with swords. In GW2, engineers have been somewhat rare. They gained a reputation at launch as having a lot of bugs still to be worked out. They also don’t feel as cool or powerful for the first several levels as other professions since our main weapon 1-5 skills are visually underwhelming and, while very solid, not the hardest hitting skills in the engineer’s arsenal.

I actually think more people have been playing engineer recently, especially in PvP/WvW. Still less than most other professions, but more than a few months ago. Back in November/December I could PvP for a few hours without ever seeing another engi.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Kardiamond.6952:

You can be mindful about it, but mostly every zerg now have perma AoE retaliation from combo field and guardian.

I love this internet forum fantasy where bus vs. bus is even remotely coordinated.

It’s a 10 frames-per-second total kitten show. It’s literally just one crowd charging into another one and the larger one prevails. The smaller group either dies or preemptively runs back to their tower/keep to hold off until reinforces show up.

This is 99% of what WvW zerging is.

Yes, there are Guardians. Stand Your Ground gives Retaliation. It does not last 25 seconds. It lasts 5. Maybe 10 with Vengeful and Boon Duration runes. 10 seconds.

Not permanent.

Guardians are very good about sustaining Retaliation on themselves. But this idea propagated that a 50+ mass of people is constantly under the effect of Retaliation is so false.

No, zergs don’t have permanent retaliation. The issue is that it’s just kind of a damage add boon that’s just kind of there. Guardians use aegis when they want to mitigate a telegraphed burst. Retal is just kind of there.

If there’s kind of a general “thorns” damage add that’s okay, but it shouldn’t be so much more powerful vs. fast attacks than vs. slow attacks. If it’s meant to be a “counter” to fast attacks, it should be something that you trigger at a specific time to counter a specific burst.

These are all relatively minor issues, of course, and yes, most of zerg battles in WvW depend on which one is bigger. We’re just the type of people looking for ways to make things better, improve a system, troubleshoot. You know, engineers.

Finding “a team” isn’t really a reasonable option. 95% of the teams you’re playing against are probably a loose collection of people who met in a free tourney a few months ago and added each other to contacts.

You’re best option is probably to do the same thing. Keep solo queueing, and whenever you get a teammate who knows what he’s doing, ask if you can add him to your friends list. They’ll say yes because they’re looking for the same thing. It takes some time but eventually you’ll have a deep enough pool of contacts to form at least partial teams most times you play.

Nunganok.4590:

If the s/p combo still works on you, you’re doing it wrong. Only chumps get rolled by s/p.

Umm, s/p is a great combo effective at every level of skill. Bunker engies have a very hard time dealing with it due to low condition removal (HGH engies have plenty, not so most bunker builds), and lack of ranged damage to get rid of pistol phantasms (again, offensive builds have grenades…bunkers usually just have 1 ranged auto and maybe one other ranged attack).

So s/p mesmers are in a great position to phantasm, 3-3-2, bleed on crit, whatever. It’s why…you won’t be seeing many bunker engineers for a while.

Kardiamond.6952:

You can be mindful about it, but mostly every zerg now have perma AoE retaliation from combo field and guardian.

Right, that’s essentially the issue of it. I don’t mind having to look for a boon before attacking (although something with 2 hit KO potential could stand a bigger tell). The issue is that it’s just on a lot of the time. It’s not permanent most of the time and not many people build around it, but at the same time it’s not really used as a counter (like aegis), it’s just kind of a damage add. Only it adds a few hundred dps vs. some professions/builds and a few thousand dps vs. others.

I’m not sold on all of these specific ideas but I do really like the idea of having some movement skills tied to turrets. Engineers are in an awkward place of having melee-effective options but few gapclosers (read: magnet), and the equally awkward place of having ranged options, but not being terrific at kiting. Having a really interesting mechanic like making turrets help you be a better melee fighter or give you kiting options would really be unique.

guza.6170:

nothing breaks dodge, unless theres some bug i dont know. But im 100% sure that focus 4 doesnt.

To anwser the original question, NO. I dont know why u would want that. What would happen is u would just have to fight 1v1 and sooner or latr the guy defending the point would get neutralized because neutralizing is faster than cappig.

Hmm, I could be wrong about focus 4. Binding blade does but I didn’t count that because you can dodge the first attack…I was pretty sure into the void was similar but I’m not an expert. Dodging into any guardian area-cc will knock you out of dodge roll for sure, though.

Dodging doesn’t give invulnerability. Off the top of my head, sanctuary, guardian staff 5 and hammer 5, and mesmer focus 4 all break dodges. There’s probably others.

Razor.6392:

The warriors name was Aprflz and his guildie Cptobviouss

Well played. Although I knew it was a joke when I got to the 20g part.

ikiturso.4026:

Solution for this would be nerfing grenade kits damage so it wont hurt engineer so bad.

That’s the problem—retaliation does not return damage based on how powerful an attack is. If a guard with retal on gets hit by explosive shot for 250 damage, he’ll return about 200-300 damage back from retaliation (based on guardian’s power stat). He’ll return the same 200-300 damage if he gets hit by a 7k killshot. He’ll return 200-300 damage 8 times if he gets hit by grenade barrage, or somewhere around 2000 damage. If someone has the misfortune to use flamethrower, he would receive retaliation damage 10 times.

The effect is multiplied when hitting multiple targets, of course. Throwing one grenade barrage into a zerg in WvW could potentially hit you for somewhere around 12000 damage from retaliation.

Sometimes it just means you were one of the only ones who played the entire match.

Burst specs have received severe nerfs as part of Anet’s good decision to remove 1-hit KO builds from the meta. Anet could have also nerfed all bunker/sustain abilities, leaving everyone even more unhappy and literally almost every single profession/build taking backbreaking nerfs.

Condition damage is a way around that problem, as it was originally intended. Want to build a high toughness, high healing build that absolutely can’t get burst down? Sure, but it has to have a weakness. Considering how strong bunker eles/guards still are, I’d say we haven’t yet seen attrition damage become out of control. Burst builds then become viable again, since teams have to stop depending on ele/guardian comps that hard counter burst.

A redesign is always difficult and it’s probably not something Anet will ever attempt with any of its professions, just because of the time cost involved…

I would say the easiest way to redesign the engineer profession would be to create a few new weapon sets for them and give them a weapon swap. Engineers currently have so much riding on each utility slot because of lacking a weapon swap (and lacking versatility on their main weapons).

Thus, every utility we choose must be super powerful and used all the time. Anet has been trying to make that happen—we’ve seen large buffs to kits and turrets. But squeezing the entire profession into those three tiny utility slots is really hurting the versatility. So much is riding on those three slots—our dps, our escapes, our condition removal, most of our control (except for rifle builds), our weapon swap, our gap closer (singular), our support skills. That’s just so much to ask from three slots.

So in the end, we choose builds just because they have all those things. I started running HGH in tourneys because it has condition removal. GW2 has an incredibly complex combat system that demands a lot from its builds, which is why only a few builds meet the requirements.

Was just in a tourney and got in a quick 1v2 by mistake, a mes and an engi. It didn’t last long, maybe 15 seconds. I felt I dodged well and avoided every burst while landing almost every skill of my own. Death breakdown? 8200+ damage from retal…

I would be very cautious about investing that much gold into gear with healing power for the engineer. We have elixir-infused bombs, the regen boon, and one skill on the elixir gun that benefits from it, aside from elixir H/heal turret/med kit.

I believe the scaling for SE is .4 for initial heal and .1 for each tick. In other words, 1000 HP would get you 400 more health from the initial drop and 100 more health per tick.

To my knowledge it is not possible to get both laurel rewards for the dailies or monthlies, but this month players who had already completed the PvE monthly (and not the PvP one) when the patch hit were able to get the additional monthly PvP laurel.

I think it’s a good change, although Anet probably could have gotten more people interested in PvP if they just had a couple more features ready when they introduced the laurels. As it is, some will become interested but quite a few will win their ten games and not come back for quite some time.

Edit: actually I hope the rank 1-5 people DO end up in tournaments, since hotjoin will probably turn them away from PvP in general.

Zenguy.6421:

luckywaldo.6089:

IMHO, this is one of the strongest builds among any class.

In what ways is it stronger than all the other classes?

Very easy might stacking and the ability to re-apply a whole lot of conditions very, very quickly. Trap rangers have an equal or better condition burst but if the traps miss it’s gone. Necros have steady bleeds and poison, but that’s it. It’s like a glass cannon condition build, with the added bonus of having great condition removal and elixir S to get you out of tight spots.

That said, it needs a good team with the right composition to be very successful. I don’t feel it’s that strong of a 1v1 build, although it does well enough for that if forced into it. It certainly can’t stand focus fire, though not much can.

Leveling in WvW can be tough in general. It would certainly be easier with a mesmer than an engineer due to inherent survivability.

Grenades are not effective until level 60, as I’m sure you know. Before unlocking the third trait tier, they will not only do only two-thirds normal direct damage but will also not inflict vulnerability, which is very important for covering damaging conditions in a condition build.

Bombs will require you to go melee, something you probably don’t want to do with a green arrow. Still a solid kit, though.

p/p or p/s becomes viable when you reach a high enough level to have condition damage and some precision on the same gear (for burn on crit). Before that, you’ll probably want to be rifle autoattacking a lot, and using net/overcharge on anyone who closes on you.