Guild Wars 2

Blackdeath.2607:

The problem is the price we pay for the run speed is incredibly steep compared to the other 8 professions:

And the price they pay for certain highly desirable boons/benefits is steep compared to what Guardians pay for some things.

You’re as much advocating Necromancers should have aegis bubbling out of every orifice because other classes get it more readily than they do — which is to say not at all. That’s unlikely to change soon either.

Profession balance is not an exercising in picking out one-dimensional viewpoints and claiming “well that’s not fair”. It’s not an exercise in making all classes a uniform ‘gumbo’ of abilities. What matters is the performance of the whole, and like it or not Guardians as a whole perform very well. Eliminating things that set a class apart, good or bad, is rarely a desirable undertaking.

JimmydT.7281:

Nike.2631:

Classes are defined by their weaknesses and their strengths and of the two usually the weakness give more texture to the experience. The lack of passive speed buff is one of the Guardian’s defining characteristics. Right now the workaround price is all 6 of your rune slots. If we get another way expect the price tag to be equally steep.

That argument is way better than the “We dont need it, so sh** up” you told me before.

That argument applies to ALL buffs for a class that’s performing well. It’s true in addition to this more specific example. I’m glad one of them resonated for you, but both of them are factors in the design process.

maddoctor.2738:

200+ pages of going in circles discussing a hypothetical solution that caters to everyone while keeping the content from being “easy”. I’m sorry I can’t see such a solution as being possible. So I kindly requested from those who preach it for some accurate and as specific as possible examples, yet nobody seems to do so.
The most usual response is: “I’m not a dev, I’ll let the devs decide.” But the devs have already decided, so what’s the point of the discussion then?

I’m largely in the same camp. The philosophy has ben expounded on at length (ad nauseam really…). I’ve got a whole catalogue of occasions I’ve manage to make my desires manifest in this game and in my experience it takes a hell of a lot more definite path forward than “well, they oughta.”

I don’t think a solution is impossible, but I think its more work than the Devs are willing to throw at it at the moment so if no one else steps up to do that work, it ain’t getting done and no amount of stamping our foot will change that.

Ohoni.6057:

15 years of industry experience disagrees.

The vast majority of customers are well conditioned to accept that certain rewards are gated by certain accomplishments. And the few that do object are fairly well pacified in this game by having the mechanical rewards almost trivially available.

Yeah, welcome to GW2, we’ll see how well it flies here.

We know how well it flies here. Ascended was introduced as a direct reaction to their discovering people with max gear in all slots leave en mass. No one looking at the haphazard and uneven execution between rings, accessories and main-slot gear can even pretend Ascended tier wasn’t done in a rush. The happy fuzzy model they launched under kitten near killed them. I suspect they’ve since developed a survivalist’s appreciation for keeping your customers chasing the carrot.

I’d like there to be alternate methods of acquisition for the raid armor too, but to date I haven’t seen a realistic, actionable strategy put forward, and “well they should just do it” is an inadequate response to the cold reality that they did do it, and the model they’ve moved on doesn’t include it. For Players trying to influence Devs, fighting the status quo ALWAYS requires a higher level of finesse. We’ve got a combined 200+ pages on the topic and desperately little actual plan to talk about.

A philosophical stand is great and all, but this argument has become a caricature of itself. One serious proposal will do more than another 50 pages of intellectual Ping-Pong.

I predict the icy runestone market will spike big time.

That guy up in Frostgorge is gonna make bank.

Ohoni.6057:

…because the players will not accept “raids are not for you, and neither are their rewards” as an answer.

15 years of industry experience disagrees.

The vast majority of customers are well conditioned to accept that certain rewards are gated by certain accomplishments. And the few that do object are fairly well pacified in this game by having the mechanical rewards almost trivially available.

You and I might prefer a variety of options in the pursuit of skins, but there is simply no dire threat to be offered that they are on the path to ruin.

Find a better lever, because I don’t see the Devs being budged an inch by what’s been put forward.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

I feel its time they add more rune choices that give the run speed increase.

Something that gives + condition damage & another that gives + power would be greatly appreciated.

I agree completely.

JimmydT.7281:

They did it with chronomacers, … why not with dh?

Mesmers already have a passive speed buff. It’s not quite 25% but signet of inspiration pulses swiftness with a base up-time of 50%.

Classes are defined by their weaknesses and their strengths and of the two usually the weakness give more texture to the experience. The lack of passive speed buff is one of the Guardian’s defining characteristics. Right now the workaround price is all 6 of your rune slots. If we get another way expect the price tag to be equally steep.

Mikau.6920:

Could add something like “gain 25% movement speed ONLY when out of combat.” in a trait. This would have no impact in combat, but wouldn’t be a pain anymore to move around. In this way we could have finally use another rune set.

This is certainly more likely that a universal speed buff, because it’s impact is smaller. But in both of the game’s competitive moves (sPvP and WvW) overland out-of-combat speed is directly tied to scoring, so it still has non-trivial value.

A passive speed boost would be really nice, don’t get me wrong (really, really nice ). My preference is that it be positioned in a way all Guardians get access to it and in a way where it is a fair trade-off against what we’re already capable of now.

Hopefully something equitable can be worked out .

Skyline Crash.6254:

virtues dont utterly suck, but they are underwhelming for sure. DH is looking more and more interesting because it changes that with the more “involved” active effects.

And yet not a day has gone by without someone decrying that they have a cast time. They no longer work while CC’d. They can’t be dumped en mass while the Renewed Focus channel is running.

In other words they gave up something very powerful to get those more active effects. Trade-offs were made.

If we’re just talking more flashy I’m sure there’s room to discus additional FX when virtues are activated.

and my suggestions for VoJ and VoR aren’t outlandish or anything. just slight buffs

You’re right, they’re not outlandish, but the VoJ buff would be straight up buff to power builds which are already wildly prevalent game-wide, the VoR buff is a flat increase in survivability for a class that’s not struggling competitively, and the VoC buff is again more survivability for a class that’s not struggling with the added downside of losing some of the synergy that exists between traits that affect aegis and VoC.

Hunter.4783:

Nike.2631:

Regardless, while we might see some QoL changes to virtues the fact remains as long as we have solid builds for every play mode they’re not going to make substantial changes to a profession-wide mechanic. Even if they utterly suck (they don’t), the total package doesn’t.

That is a bullkitten argument.

Well if game balance 101 is out of bounds I’m sure this thread will be a constant source of inspiration to the Devs.

You can remove F1-F3 all signets and spirit weapons and guardians won’t suck. Doesn’t mean its ok to do so! If anything it screams “please don’t forget me!”

Did I say spirit weapons couldn’t be better? No? Oh, that’s because improving under-used tools is how you increase build diversity and a good thing. But fact remains buffing ANY PART of our strongest, most prevalent, most pervasive build is gonna be way down the list of strategies. As long as the class is generating metrics that show it’s in a good place we’re not gonna see class-wide mechanics getting tinkered with.

Broken and weak class mechanics need to be looked at, end of story.

Good luck convincing anyone with actual say in the matter than f1-f3 are weak or that medi-guardian needs to be better.

I don’t think you’ll succeed.

rajule.8054:

Lol, so what if you have hunter’s determination which drops fragments of faith trap when you get stunned? Are you basically going to ignore the CC and drop the trap whenever you get stunned (granted the trait isn’t on cooldown)

Yup!

Tiggers.3890:

I absolutely didn’t make this thread to complain about the class or class mechanics — that is not my intent at all I apologize if anything I said made it sound that way.

I don’t think it’s being taken that way. Thayt’s Why I asked what weapon you were using. I’ve spent many hours duo-ing with a staff Elementalist and the damage they can lay down when they have a meatshield is ASTOUNDING.

But playing solo you have to give up some of that damage for survivability. If they were tough while doing that much damage they’d obsolete all the other classes .

Sounds like you guys are recommending I try different weapons to see if that makes my life easier (thinking scepter focus, really not a fan of the short range dagger main hand). I’ll give it a shot. I’ll probably go back to staff once I hit 80 and get some exotic gear with high damage, if I can kill everything before it can kill me, well problem solved!

Do try out the other weapons — even if you don’t stick with them it’ll improve your play on the staff.

Good hunting!

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Now, I am not sure(we need clarification from Karl) how the Trap provides the new boons.

Do you need to be standing in the Trap to get the boons once a foe triggers it?

If yes, Do your allies also get boons if they are standing on the Trap or just you?

If no, Do you get the boons no matter where you are as long as a foe triggers the Trap?

Does Hunter’s Determination break stun as well? What is the cooldown on it?

Purification is likely the model here: only you get the boons, but you get them at any distance from the trap when it is triggered.

Hunter’s determination wouldn’t break the stun, but the trap it casts does (fine distinction, I realize). This is basically a direct answer to the problem we were seeing with the trait during BWE3 than you could get CC’d and burned down stuck in the middle of a field of aegis pellets you couldn’t move to pick up.

rajule.8054:

but I have a question about the fragments of faith change being a stun breaker now…
I had seen people asking for this to be added to traps and now its on one, but I don’t see this being very useful.

So you would need to lay down a trap and then hope the enemy happens to step on it after they’ve CC’d you, but before it wears off on its own? Am I missing something? it seems like there’d be very few instances where this would actually save you..

You are missing something . It’s instant cast and stun breaks on placement, not on triggering.

And we have a trait that causes us to cast it when we get CCd -> stun break and drops the trap which if they are in close instantly cripples, gives you stability, and scatters aegis pellets (working name) all over the place.

same with the healing trap. you have to lay down the trap and hope the enemy steps on it right when you need to heal. not too soon, not too late…

That one certainly works better if you’re in melee or on point, but if someone is trying to range you you’ve already got a pretty strong position. If you’re getting stomped in a ranged duel, run, drop the trap in a chokepoint, and keep running.

Coulter.2315:

So your point is that people who aren’t that interested in being fully prepared for Raids will have a harder time completing them? I agree but it is that ATTITUDE and not their gear that will be the main problem.

That attitude protects the rest of the group from the failings of the individual. If I have plenty of time, sure, we roll with what we’ve got and see how it goes. But if its a tightly scheduled event, prep is not optional. Be it gear or just remembering to bring your consumables.

I’ve been kicked myself and it’s not that big a deal. “Hey, glad you found a stronger replacement, sorry I was dragging us down”. Its usually a quirk of connection speed rather than gear in my experience, but if you want the best for your team/friends, you have to be willing to bow out sometimes.

Lets stop pretending that people with an extreme drive to do Raids and be the best at doing this content but refuse to get Ascended and use Food/Utility buffs exist, they don’t and saying we should try to accomodate these imaginary people is just an attempt to get the difficulty and skill requirements nerf’d.

Well I’m being told repeatedly IN THIS THREAD “I’m a highly skilled player and I shouldn’t have to have gear.” I largely agree with you — that combination doesn’t exist. Because skilled players Get. Their. Gear.

Gear is not the barrier – just the mindset of the people this content was never designed for.

Gear was never the barrier… its a safety net that protects groups that are learning the encounter. And fact of the matter is when you’re learning a new encounter you need all the net you can muster to buy the time to figure things out.

JimmydT.7281:

Mhh, some here say, its only a qol thing to have this 25% MS. You claim, its because of balance that we dont get one. Could you please explain, in which gamemode dh would become op with 25% MS? I cant see this!

You’ve got that entirely turned around. In which playmode to Guardians perform so badly they need a buff?

Oh. None of them.

Skyline Crash.6254:

he said weakest, not stupid AI

ranger pets are actually pretty strong

The same 1.7 million still don’t agree. Hence probably the single most popular suggestion/request during the Ranger CDI being “How can we get rid of them ENTIRELY?”

Regardless, while we might see some QoL changes to virtues the fact remains as long as we have solid builds for every play mode they’re not going to make substantial changes to a profession-wide mechanic. Even if they utterly suck (they don’t), the total package doesn’t.

AWACS.6537:

Virtues are the weakest class specific abilities.

You didn’t actually just say that, did you?

’Cause about 1.7 million rangers might have an alternative proposal for that honor…

More seriously, when a class is in a good place — and that is a fair description of the guardian — the changes you’re actually gonna see will improve our worst builds, not all builds and certainly not our BEST builds.

What weapon are you using?

Coulter.2315:

ASCENDED ARMOUR WILL NOT AFFECT EVENTUAL OUTCOMES OF GROUPS, PEOPLE TELLING YOU THAT GEAR IS A BARRIER ARE LIARS OR IDIOTS.

Hi, I’m a practiced raid leader in other games. While I expect Anet to generate little more than cakewalks that almost coincidentally take 10 people, the way the term ‘raid’ is used in the larger MMO gaming universe bringing every single percentage point you can muster is just common courtesy when raiding — until you have it dialed in.

You run your groups how you like. No one will stop you. But don’t look stunned if other groups have higher expectations on the preparation of their members. And given the highly variable skill level of pug-raids, every percentage point counts.

BaconofPigs.1683:

Nike.2631:

BaconofPigs.1683:

5%

So around 120 extra points of Toughness (armor and toughness being interchangeable).

Seems like it might come up in a constant damage environment.

uh it did.

BaconofPigs.1683:

You take 1,988 dmg from Magic Aura
You take 1,821 dmg from Magic Aura
You take 1,904 dmg from Magic Aura
You take 2,205 dmg from Magic Aura
You take 1,861 dmg from Magic Aura
You take 2,102 dmg from Magic Aura

OMGOMGOMOGMGOMGOMG My ele only has 11645 hp…..

I think the guard in my team only took 1.6k per pulse.

The person I initially questioned was saying the difference between orange and pink was 36 stat points. The actual difference is more like 156 stat points.

I’m planning to do some raid tanking with the new Thief Espec Daredevil. They get some awesome tools to mitigate and avoid damage while staying right up in a boss’ face.

Just want to highlight this thread about the water-attunement overload both because it’s clever and because there’s some good suggestions there I hope aren’t overlooked just because they set up a more focused space to look into options for the Tempest.

Chokolata.1870:

Engineer has a very easy time in stacking 25 might and all boons and maintaining them. Yet I see no one nerfing it…

You will. They gutted D/D Elementalists first because they were more dominant, but you will. Might stacking is way out of hand and they know it.

BaconofPigs.1683:

5%

So around 120 extra points of Toughness (armor and toughness being interchangeable).

Seems like it might come up in a constant damage environment.

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

Maybe having full exotics will not be a guarantee of failure, but it’s going to significantly increase chances of failing.

This is a lie, +20 Primary Stats and +16 Secondary Stats (the benefit of full Ascended Armour) will never “significantly” increase your chances of winning. Do not fall for this argument it is NONSENSE.

They have higher armor ratings also, don’t they?

Jojee.5671:

I must say that druid is the biggest letdown, a specialization so rigidly designed as a healer whereas the other specializations can be built in a variety of ways.
Specialization is redundant as it only brings healing.

I disagree

The druid can be spec’d for mobility and vicious CC and does not have to carry a staff.

PopeUrban.2578:

Here’s what me know about dragons:

• They eat magic
• They want to subjugate all living things
• When they showed up, the human gods skipped town

…

The mists, being pure potential, magic, and chaos are the natural state of things, the filler between all realities right? The realities we know, tyria, the domain of anguish, all the littel shards, fractals, and borderlands differentiate themselves because they have less possibility and more rules. Rules like time and physics.

It is entirely possible that the natural state of all reality is the mists, and what causes these little pockets to exist is creatures like our own elder dragons. By removing magic they allow things like time and physics to exist.

When mordremoth says “I am this world” hes’ not just being evil. He is telling the truth

My theory posits that tyria exists because the elder dragons existed first, consumed large portions of magic from the mists, and that “hole” in infinite possibility is Tyria. A land with rules and physics and time, but also a land with enough magic sitting around to bend those rules.

I’m confident that cosmology will turn out to be about 30 times more interesting than what we actually get.

The Eternal Alchemy would be a system of recognizing the ‘bite marks’ in the fabric of the mists .

Rebound creates a copy of myself for 8 seconds that does everything I do delayed 1 second…

Now that would be ELITE.

I don’t blame you, I’m tired of people asking for improvements and prefacing the request with statements that are so incorrect as to be bald-faced LIES. That sort of thing is the NOISE that enable the Devs to ignore any reasonable request that might be coming after.

If you don’t PLAY all of the other professions, don’t talk about them like you know their troubles or the complete lack of them you image they all enjoy. Because anyone who does will immediately smell a rat and that includes the Devs.

We all want nice things for the Ranger. Don’t be part of the reason we can’t have them.

Woaden.9425:

The issue now is that Acro needs a lot of love on it’s own, it can’t stand as its own line: Pain Response is a terrible condi clear (at the very least it needs to add torment and confusion), Guarded Initiation is useless, and the GM’s are outshined by minor-adept/minor-master traits in other lines, making the entire Acro line redundant on so many levels!

((looks at Assassin’s Reward))

((looks at raids being built around continuous unavoidable damage))

I can’t say I agree.

I’m not adverse to Acrobatics getting a tune-up because it is sorely lacking in competitive choices even for bunkers, but you can thread your way through it.

I hope the next balance pass is a little more sweeping once they aren’t tied up with unleashing the first wave of Especs. All the professions have some TRAGIC underperformers that need attention.

Dirame.8521:

I’m pretty sure he’ll change is mind when he sees someone do a 10k Trueshot.

To him .

Honestly I can’t wait to get all of this out of the lab and into play. I expect non-stop caterwauling that the DH no ‘true guardian’ will ever play is going to be one of the most hated things fans of other professions have ever had to face against. One mis-step and you get your brains blown out the back of your helmet. My experience with the so called ‘useless’ traps has been I CAN’T MISS with them when fighting on point and I’ve played enough Ranger trap-setting to not feel like there’s much PvE content where I can’t dart in, drop of my bundle of compressed joy and watch it protect, spindle, reveal, mutilate, etc. my targets.

Yeah, there’s some specific skills required to use these properly. Skills the core Guard doesn’t rely because its not a ranged or trap-setting profession. But if you have them — or develop them — the DH is a substantial package of new tools to mix and match with the current array. Unlike most of the Especs, this is gonna be an icon to watch for because when you see it, its NOT the core profession coming at you with some paint splashed on it.

Dardamaniac.1295:

Ranger has been the only class generally known for the need of buffs and quality improvements.. For a long time.

Are you kittening KIDDING ME?

This persecution complex is NOT HELPING.

Yes. Ranger has problems. Serious, systematic, intractable issues. But DON’T go around trying to play a pity card like all other classes are faultless paragons of blissful gameplay.

Ohoni.6057:

Lol, I’m not “derailing” anything, I’m just following the flow of the conversation. These elements are all inextricably connected.

((looks at thread title))

No… I’m pretty sure this thread has nothing to do with reward structures.

BrunoBRS.5178:

There’s a reason pet names for builds never caught on with GW2, it’s because we can describe any build with two to four letters and/or a role (D/D cele ele, bunker guard, S/D thief, etc.). giving it a silly name just makes it harder to convey what the build is for.

((shrug)) Either way it’s not that important. And I find your shorthand rather wildly incomplete since it incudes a vast amount of presumption about the traits being used so I guess communication breaks down both directions.

any half decent player would be able to decap the point and take the thief down by themselves, if a thief tried a build like that in PvP.

Experience says otherwise, but what do I know?

Back to the matter at hand! (new tools looking good for non-stealthy bunker thieves )

Tupi.2967:

Thz.7569:

Also, him being a dragon of Mind and this being showcased with all the purple makes it even more difficult to fathom his demise.
.

Yes, I’ve noticed the purple, even in HoT logo! Mind magic I would link it with Mesmer habilities.

I’m going with purple in the logo because Mordy secured Glint’s egg (purple is the crystal/branded color) and used it to fashion that thing at the end of the trailer. Dragon babies grow up so quickly.

I thought we had that covered by throwing ourselves to our death in every imaginable deadly endeavor. Adventurers are wildly suicidal by nature.

Then the transporter grid/Asuran “waypoints” just spew out the next facsimile of the long dead hero and off we march again to our next demise.

I can’t wait for the exploding heads when the people who think Ascended gear is too much homework discover that the test run of raids during BWE3 turned off the UMPTEEM MILLION xp grind to unlock a bunch of masteries to scale down the automatic damage and the special armor piercing skills required to even think about setting foot in the raid instance.

Ascended gear may not be mandatory, but have no illusions about the mastery grind attunement process…

Knighthonor.4061:

Neither LongBow or ShortBow should not be Mandatory for PvP imo.

Who told you they were? And why did you believe them?

I suspect over the course of several bosses there will be a time when ranged damage is very desirable. But there’s no reason to expect that to be true on every fight. It falls to you to have the range of experience and the tools in your inventory to roll with the needs of the encounter.

Expand your comfort zone. It’ll make you a better raider even when you are using your favorite weapon.

BrunoBRS.5178:

don’t you think it’s a bit pretentious to assume people know the name a random person on a guild forum gave to one of the most popular condi thief builds back in aug. 2012? sheesh.

Not if you’re blithely assuming that a moderate number of people posting to this sub-forum were reading it then, when the name was in common use. You’ve succeeded in making me feel old. Well done .

your version is awfully similar to what i used to run in PvE (i’d run shaman’s mixed with rabid though, and shadow refuge because it’s freaking shadow refuge), but it’s completely impractical in PvP. my PvP alternative is a hybrid build, to make the most out of the elite and heartseeker when i need to finish someone off. cele amulet over rampager is an obvious choice, as the damage sacrifice is well worth the extra defense, which is pretty much mandatory for PvP thief. alternatively, you can swap sigil of torment with sigil of venom and swap to carrion, works just as fine, especially if you have a herald to grant you fury. going pure condi (rabid) is not recommended, as the thief isn’t the best at condi spikes, and as such doesn’t benefit from it as much. plus, all that toughness will do little to stop the condis coming your way when you’re at 10k health.

sPvP I tend to just play up bunkering – I don’t have to win fights I just have to make them last a really, really long time while the point’s already under my control. In practice I can usually tie up people long enough that not only are we getting a solid swing in points but a friendly +1 from my team can drop buy and murder my frustrated foe.

Silverbolt.2301:

It’s almost like he’s trying very hard to widespread the term for a build that he believes no one else has every used before.

Except it’s not my name or build. Its been around for ages (and clearly it’s not that widespread now).

BrunoBRS.5178:

except calling it by a pet name doesn’t give me anything about what the build itself is. i could very well know the build, but not recognize it because you’re calling it by a name that doesn’t describe the build.

It would have taken an eighth as long to just type “GW2 super unicorn” into Google .

The full name is of course “Leaping Super Immortal Death Troll Legendary Unicorn Blossom”

Link to full discussion here.

My Daredevil-ized version.

Main thing is it uses high number-of-hit attacks (D/D 3, P/P 3, daggerstorm) as massive self-heals. Caltrop bleeding and direct strikes do most of your damage.

Ah, so you know your KB-spam complaint is untrue, you just want to assume everyone but you is an idiot. Too hard to actually ask a player if they have that traited.

And Obal’s last comments are now two versions out of date.

Like I said. Eyes squinched shut. Because no Dragonhunter could possibly NOT be running the KB trait in small group content where it would be stupid and annoying to have that traited. See icon, kick. Mind closed like a bank vault door.

And who the kitten is the sainted Obal and at what point did they gain the ability to see through time? Because some of the changes we just got have NEVER been played yet. I’d love to hear how that got factored into this prophetic judgment.

Driften.8716:

It would be nice if “Endurance Thief” was changed to “Reverse Pick Pocket” and transfers 3 conditions from you to your enemy’s back pocket on steel in addition to stealing endurance.

It probably only needs to transfer two conditions to be an effective addition, but I REALLY like the concept.

Transferring conditions is way more fun than just cleansing them .

Don’t feed the troll. Black Box has already committed to trying to group kick Dragonhunters the moment he sees them because not only does he know your character better than you do, he knows the absolute maximum potential of a class he has never and will never play. We’re not talking about blindness anymore, this is squinching your eyes shut so you can’t possibly see how wrong you might be.

Tristavel.9218:

This is absolutely true, and kind of besides the point. Personally I agree that current situation makes swiftness irrelevant in most scenarios, but the issue at hand is that currently EVERY CLASS BUT GUARDIAN has access to passive 25% ms thing.

Do you really want to play “every class but mine has…” games? Because believe me some of the others have more serious gaps than Guardian….

Amaya.1483:

It is pretty sad, because i was pretty much expecting the 25% coming now, since the feedback on that matter was kinda overwhelming unanimous. I would really like to know the reason behind that decision though. For me and i know one person doenst even matter, it is the reason for changing class finally.

What ‘decision’? Not changing things is normal and doubly so for a profession that already performs well in every play mode. “I WANNA BE MORE POWERFUL” usually is unanimous and not a reason for any Dev anywhere to make changes.

IF we ever see a speed buff, it should be in the core profession anyway so having it not pop up walled off behind an Espec trait line is a good thing.