Guild Wars 2

dancingmonkey.4902:

Most of your suggestions are unreasonable OP in my opinion. The reason they have selected sigils on the same ICD is because the combination is too strong. So they allow you to make choices. Beefing them up simply over rides the balance on them and only promotes more “pure damage or get out” mentality.

That was quite literally the first suggestion I made, to make fire and air function as a “same type” so they can no longer be paired. The buff to them was not anywhere near a 100% return for the nerf. It basically nerfs air/fire set ups and buffs air or fire set ups, so people relying on sigils to put out large portion of their damage will see a big chunk out the window while those using sigils for that occasional spike will see an improvement.

There are a lot of builds that can and do utilize air/fire combo since the ICD was introduced individually. Unfortunatly it became incredibly popular when people could substitute these sigils for damaging traits and focus on their defensive options. I don’t think the intention was to let sigils carry any build.

Short: April pack tried, helped, didn’t really succeed imo. Still a ton of options that fit into no build and a load of pvp related complaints from double sigil proc builds.

Sigil Functions
-Fire/air combo is now considered a “same type” sigil and will not function together. As compensation, increase the base damage of these sigils slightly.

Sigils

-Air: increase base damage to 1270 (33% bonus).
-Fire: Increase power coefficient to 1.05.
-Torment: Reduce cooldown to 3 seconds.
-Earth: reduce cooldown to 1 second.
-Purity: Reduce cooldown to 7 seconds.
-Nullification: Reduce cooldown to 5 seconds.

-Damage % against enemy types: Removed. Obtainable from crafting now as an utility infusion slot of ascended gear. (no minor or major version ofcourse). Crafting materials require bloodstone bricks, a drop from the respective enemy type (centaur = hooves, grawl = fur, ogre = brittle bones, etc), mystic coins, and philosopher’s stones.

-Impact and night: Remain as sigils of their own type.
-Malice: unlock in pvp.

Runes

-Adventurer: Changed 4th effect to remove 1 condition on healing skill activation. Changed 6th effect to passively increase endurance regeneration by 15% while under the effects of swiftness.

-Air: 6th effect now strikes the nearest enemy with a lightning strike when you gain swiftness (ICD 10 seconds) instead of when hit.

-Balthazar: 4th effect now proc’s cleansing fire (ele skill) when you hit 20% health with an ICD of 60 seconds instead of quickness.

-Divinity: Start at 10 to all stats, increasing by 2 each additional rune (total 90).

-Dwayna: Reduce cooldown of 4th effect to 25 seconds. Change 6th effect to grant a water field for 3 seconds on healing skill activation (ICD 25 seconds) instead of regeneration.

-Earth: Change 4th effect to grant 4 seconds of protection if you take more than 10% of your max health in 1 hit (ICD 30 seconds). Change 6th effect to activate obsidian flesh when you drop below 20% health (ICD 90 seconds.)

-Fire: Change 4th effect to grant a fire aura when you are hit below 80% health (ICD 45 seconds). Change 6th effect to summon a fire storm (fgs #5) when you are disabled. ICD 60 seconds.

-Ice: Change 4th effect to deal 7% extra damage towards chilled foes. Change 6th effect to apply a 0.25 second daze every time you apply chill in addition to the 20% chill duration. ICD 10 seconds on daze.

-Infiltration: Swap the precision and the % bonus damage position. Will now grant 25 prec/4% dmg to foes <75%/50 prec/6% dmg to foes <50% health/100 precision/10% dmg to foes <50% health. Total 175 precision and max +20% damage towards foes below 50% health.

-Lyssa: Change 4th effect to only include protection, regeneration, vigor, aegis, or retaliation. Change 6th effect to now grant chaos armor in addition to its 5 condition conversion.

-Mercy: Change 4th effect to revive allies 20% faster and with 30% more health. Change 6th effect to revive you to 25% health upon taking lethal damage (instead of going down, you heal to 25% max health). ICD 90 seconds.

-Sanctuary: Change 4th effect to a 25% chance to grant retaliation for 3 seconds when hit with a 15 second ICD. Change 6th effect to grant 3 seconds of stability when you break out of a stun with a 45 second ICD.

-Baelfire: change 4th effect to increase incoming burn duration by 10% while also granting +50% endurance recovery rate while you are burned.

-Centuar: Change 4th effect to also include immobilize (-50% incoming cripple and immobilize duration). Change 6th effect where mobile skills break immobilize instead of granting swiftness on heal.

-Dolyak: Change 6th effect to reduce your movement speed by 15% and increase the healing to 48(0.1 healing power coefficient).

-Eagle: Change 4th effect to 10% chance on critical to gain swiftness for 5 seconds (15 second ICD). Upgrade the 6th effect to +10% critical damage against foes below 50% health.

-Elementalist: Change 4th effect to reduce incoming condition duration by 10%. Change the 6th effect to +15% boon and condition duration.

-Vampirism: Changed 2nd effect to a 15% chance to siphon life from a bleeding target with a 20 second ICD. Changed 6th effect to increase life siphoning effects by 10% in addition to becoming mist when below 20% health (60 second ICD).

(more to come)

Went from QoL to a full on rework. Reminds me of my steal topic O.o

I’d say just let us see our cooldowns while in DS (except weapon skills ofc). It gives 0 statistical benefit to the necro, just helps them make better timed decisions. I often exit Ds with still 3-5 seconds left on my healing skill which sometimes resulted in my death. Not that I think my head clock is all epic but its kind of hard to count down 20+ seconds in the heat of battle while paying attention to about a dozen other things.

I’d rather it just apply poison and not bounce. Its bad for damage and if you’re using d/d heartseeker is a stronger gap closer, and if you’re using p/d body shot is far better than a cripple even if it costs 1 more initiative (so they can’t dodge your cnd while immobilized).

Remove the bounce, and add a ~3 second poison to the mix. So 3 second cripple/poison single target with 100% projectile finisher. It’s slow and thief doesn’t make many fields so the finisher part is situational already. Atleast it would help x/d condition, really do nothing for x/d power aside for the finisher part if it comes up.

[Human]
-Avatar Of Melandru: Change cleansing leaves to a held channel skill to remove 1 condition from each ally (up to 5) every .5 seconds for up to 5 seconds and drastically lower aftercast. Grant regeneration from roar of the forest for the same duration (5 seconds). Increase width of healing spring to 360 units. (weaker form of tome of courage, but still a threat to interrupt).

-Hounds of Balthazar: Increase health to ~15,802 (tier 2 profession health). Increase damage of fiery leap to ~2,200-3,400 and add functionality “gain might for each foe hit (3 stacks for 8 seconds)”. Increase bite attack speed by ~33%. (little more reliable but with such a long cooldown only a scare skill).

[Charr]
-Battle Roar: Lower cooldown to 30 seconds. Increase might stacks to 3. (still not a shout, lower boon duration, longer cooldown than “for great justice!”).

-Artillery Barrage: Increase damage per strike to ~657 (80% more). Increase cast range to 1,000. Increase number of strikes to 20. No cooldown change. (basically a meteor shower with an incredibly high cooldown).

-Warband Support: Increase health of melee to ~15,802 (tier 2 profession health). Increase damage of ranged by ~15%. Added functionality based on warband legion; blood has fury on battle roar (7 seconds) and ranged shots pierce, ash has daggers for melee dealing more damage while flanking and ranged mine grants stealth to allies in the blast radius (3 seconds), iron battle roar removes 1 condition and ranged aimed shot deals 20% more damage.

-Charrzooka: Reduce cooldown to 150 seconds.

[Sylvari]
-Seed turret: Increase attack speed to once every 3 seconds.

-Healing seed: Creates a water field for 10 seconds once killed (not if it expires).

-Druid spirit: Grant -20% condition duration towards itself, added functionality “increase toughness by ~35 every time it applies regeneration”.

-Sylvan Hound: Change attack to a small leap slash that applies poison and cripple for 2 seconds. Added functionality “gain health when a condition is applied”. ~320 healing with a 1 second ICD.

[Norn]

-Call owl: change effect to attack 5 times, applying 1 bleed stack for 8 seconds per attack. Executes 5 attacks over ~2.25 seconds.

-Become the Bear: Allow movement with AA. Heavy swipe causes knockdown instead of knockback (1 second KD). Add 20% damage to knocked down foes with maul. Lower cooldown to 200 seconds.

-Become the Raven: Lower cripple duration of aa to 1 second, allow movement with AA. Allow movement while casting shriek. Increase number of attacks for rending talons to 6 and increase bleeding duration to 8 seconds. Lower cooldown to 200 seconds.

-Become the Wolf: Allow movement with AA. Increase number of attacks in blood frenzy to 6 (same channel duration) and gain quickness for 2 seconds if you hit a foe that was knocked down (only applies once). Leap breaks immobilize now. Lower cooldown to 200 seconds.

-Become the Snow Leopard: Remove cast time of growl while changing it to a radius effect of 240 units (shorter). Pounce now has +50% critical damage if you were affected by prowl however casting it immediately removes prowl’s effect. Cooldown remains at 240 seconds.

DAS NECRO

Wanted to make another topic but I figure I google an existing topic (since the search function is awful).

Racial skills can only be used in 2 game modes, pve and wvw. Wvw is about either roaming which is for the agile and the scary or blobbing which is about group utility and/or group control. NONE of the racial skills are useful to the slightest degree in there, and I doubt they ever will but you know what? There is this lovely feature to split how each skill behaves in each game mode so instead of pretending like racial skills earned that perma-bench status how about they make them semi-useful?

The whole idea is that racial skills should not be better than other skills. Meaning if there is a might stacking skill that heals at the end for a racial skill it would never be stronger than empower. Why not atleast bring them to the light though with a few buffs for pve? Would it really hurt? Right now its just stacking, cleaving, and zerging, none of which racial skills would hurt or help.

[Asuran]
-Pain invertor: Increase confusion duration to 6 seconds. Chang retaliation duration to 2 seconds per enemy effected.

-7 Series Golem: Have it gain “berserk” at 50% health for the remainder of its duration. Lower cooldown to 150 seconds.

-D-series Golem: Increase health to ~18,372 (tier 3 profession health). Give it the ability to “self repair” once it reaches 50% health. Lower cooldown to 150 seconds.

-Summon power suit: Separate it’s health from the player’s health. Instead if the suit dies with a player in it, they are launched out with 50% health and are “knocked out” (cannot break stun similar to frost bow freeze) for 2 seconds. Lower cooldown to 200 seconds. Change launch fist to a skill shot, dealing damage and dazing foes in its path (1 second daze). Lower channel time of gattling fists to ~4.5 seconds. Allow directional movement during whirling assault. Increase self repair channel duration to 8 seconds. Movement interrupts this effect. (more reliable offensive and less of a suicide suit).

BrunoBRS.5178:

Esplen.3940:

My counter argument was that most mesmers (in PvE) only have access to two boon removals at any given point in time. Mix that with the high cooldowns they all have (bar Sword auto and Mind Stab which are both unreliable), we really don’t have that much.

Actually, iDisenchanter has a low cooldown but is not very useful since it’s spawned within 600 range of the opponent.

Running Shattered Concentration is the main way of getting a third boon removal in your build, but is also unreliable because shatters aren’t always guaranteed to hit, especially if you need that boon gone on demand. Additionally, you’re blowing an attack to remove a boon. And by attack, I mean one of your bursts (unless you do F2).

So my counter is that we don’t have much boon removal. Yes, I can run a build of Shattered Concentration, Sword + Greatsword, Arcane Thievery, Null Field, Phantasmal Disenchanter and I’ll do all of nothing for myself or my team. In fact, even that won’t be able to strip boons that well.

you must be playing a different game if two boon removals on average, with capacity to spec for more, and with a good amount of them being on weapon skills isn’t much.

half the classes don’t even have boon removal.

^^ He gets it.

Orbus.8473:

Saving up a one time use skill that usually has no synergy with the play style is hardly game breaking, and if it bothers them that much just make it replace the old stolen skill with a new one.

That is the issue I’ve been trying to bring across. I’ve made the post before of steal not being universally friendly to thieves, but a QoL fix such as this would help that out a lot without having to alter steal itself or any of its stolen skills.

Esplen.3940:

NinjaEd.3946:

Mesmer has enough methods of destroying boons and more than enough methods of applying conditions. Although kind of unique, I say nay.

Are we playing the same game? Our options of boon removal are:
Sword auto chain, requires 3 hits for 1 boon.
Mind Stab, small aoe ground target, roots player during cast.
Arcane Thievery, dodgeable, blockable, blindable (yes, you can BLIND and AEGIS a skill that swaps boons and conditions), easily fails due to lack of LoS when LoS is clearly maintained.
Null Field, 5 pulses, 1 boon per pulse, average aoe size, can be walked out of, 15% uptime
Phantasmal Disenchanter, dodgeable, aegis-able, blind-able, spawns close to target making it easy to destroy, does bounce so it’s nice, relatively low cooldown, takes up a utility slot
Shattered Concentration, dodgeable, aegis-able, blind-able, kite-able.

And no, you’re not going to have more than 2 of these options in a game (3 if you’re running a shatter build without greatsword) with one being a utility and the other being the weapon or trait.

So you’re counter argument is listing a bunch of boon removal options, and saying you can run a shatterer build to destroy them. So in other words, you want boon striping to be overly passive on Mesmer to the point where its all they do on any build?

Hmm…

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

the fact is, warrior haters should not be even complaining about warriors in the first place.

these unjust unreasonable uncalled for nerfs happens because the minority vocal warrior haters complained.

lol, such a minority. You see how many people hate warrior these days?

Want minority vocal haters look at Nerf-thief posts and then speak up about your unjust nerfs.

mtpelion.4562:

Balancing consists of the following steps:

1. Collect Data.
2. Review Data to see if Balancing is required.
3. If required, propose solutions.
4. Determine if solutions meet your goals, are realistic, and do not significantly impact other areas of the game.
5. Select a solution.
6. Develop the solution.
7. Test the solution.
8. Revise the solution if anything comes up during testing.
9. Test again if revisions are made.
10. Repeat 8-9 as needed.
11. Release Balancing changes.

Start over at step 1.

I don’t think anet is following those steps. None of the thief changes are things thief players are asking for. Dagger cleaving 1 extra player now is just odd, but nerfing choking gas to “hit” and nerfing s/d and bps(although really wasn’t that bad of a nerf) that were constantly complained about from non-thief players.

I feel like for some classes they don’t look at their respective forums for balance decisions as much as the Q.Q against them. I say some because warrior would of been nerfed to the ground by this logic had it applied to them.

We the thieves want more build diversity, and like all professions to work on the list of meaningless traits, utilities and runes that have potential to make something viable and unique

killahmayne.9518:

NinjaEd.3946:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Dear lord, how about they nerf necro passive fears instead?

Warrior has nerfs coming; they haven’t even -dropped-.

Oh no, you get punished for missing your eviscerate. Tough love….

On the flip side,
-6 seconds of unblockable signet of power says hello to shelter!
-Whirling axes says hello to zerg!
-Rousing resilience says hello to zerg!
-Signet of rage passive says “use me!”
-Arcing slice says “use me too!”

On the flip side

- I get rid of Balanced Stance/Berserker Stance or Endure Pain for a situationally useful utility where as these stances are useful in any situation
- Retaliation still says hello to 5-10K self-inflicted damage in zergs
- Rousing Resilience every 40 seconds? Over 25% hammer damage + cooldown? Or condition cleanse/adrenaline gain?
- For a full 3 adrenaline bars every 60 seconds lul
- Okay

This is what I see everytime I log in.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Dear lord, how about they nerf necro passive fears instead?

Warrior has nerfs coming; they haven’t even -dropped-.

Oh no, you get punished for missing your eviscerate. Tough love….

On the flip side,
-6 seconds of unblockable signet of power says hello to shelter!
-Whirling axes says hello to zerg!
-Rousing resilience says hello to zerg!
-Signet of rage passive says “use me!”
-Arcing slice says “use me too!”

It would have an ICD to a 0 cd reduced steal, but if need be could go further so a combo like that cannot be over used (90 seconds?) I acknowledge the potential exploit in it which is why I suggested a ICD on it.

I don’t see how adding double charges is any different from a 10 second window (again, could be reduced further but the effects would need an improvement for such a short window). If they screw up a hit or 2, double charges just lets them keep going at it. Sure the might on venom strike helps it seem more like an active effect but its in the same boat of giving them more chances. Also these aren’t literal lesser effects of those venoms, these are small stat bonuses for a short time to use them for something. It would have zero effect on allies effected by your venoms, it would be only for the thief themselves.

Tooltips don’t always display trait effects, VoJ on guardian doesn’t display vulnerability if you trait blind exposure for example (I bet I could find more but that’s not the point). Steal already turns from a 1 line description to a full page with a trickery spec, so tool tips are hardly the issue.

See karka venom. In any case, ice drake cannot be buffed because of how it behaves. You start adding 5, 6 w/e charges or increase the duration next thing its going to be a chill spam build somehow with 10+ second chill applications. Ice drake venom also conflicts with devourer venom in the control department, we don’t need redudent utility skills especially in the same category. We already have a poison and torment venom, burn makes no sense thematically on a thief, a confusion venom just sounds odd and bleed would just seem redudent on a thief kit because we have so much of it already (and it is easy to accidently override since almost everyone has a ton of it). Best option is to turn it into a utility rather than more DoT or some other condition we already have a ton of. Remember you want something to add to a build that isn’t just a copy of you other skills, it has to be unique. Karka venom is just a suggestion, but really the main idea is a utility.

Skelk venom just seems like it can’t be utilized without a build. It has potential as it is and traits would only allow it to function better. The fact that it is on hit on a long cooldown putting out more hits just makes you live a few seconds longer, it really doesn’t help the venoms role as a healing skill slot. It needs something to pull its weight even if it means a small investment.

Hitman.5829:

NinjaEd.3946:

Roxx.8713:

Hitman.5829:

Quakeman.9378:

LaronX.8079:

Dodge, move and play the game. Are you kittened or do you only play thief and are blind? Thief s if any class already have a lot of active defenses . You got a kitten load of blinds and jumps and you still moan how to survive. What the hell. UHHH … QQ I actually had to COMMIT to an action like every other class. QQ I can’t kitten up and be instantly gone again. QQ my mistakes actually stick to me QQ .
Seriously. Stop. You clearly don’t know how this game works.

I really am awe struck by the stupidity of this entire statement. I usually try my best to stray away from such statements on the forums, but I’m really getting fed up with unjustified thief QQ. A bad thief will not survive at all period. if my CnDs dont connect due to an extremely wide range of possibilities, I am beyond vulnerable. And mistakes are very noticeable on thief. if I mess up in a fight, there’s a very good chance that it’s going to bite me in the kitten unless I can work around my mistake. Same with other classes, although classes such as warrior and guardian and much more forgiving. And a 10s revealed would completely destroy thief. period. There’s nothing we could do for 10 whole seconds to stay alive w/o stealth like other classes can. it is our means of survival, with he exemption of Evade builds, but people complain about those too.. Seriously, is there anything we can do for you guys to not hate us?

This post is not about stealth, this post is about how thieves have semi-immunity to chill. We want to discuss how thieves should be penalize by this condition. There are various ways that the thief could be penalized for example:

• if the thief is chilled make him deal -xx% damage (if initiative regeneration is not slowed down).
• root the thief and freeze him and make his movement slow down to 100%.
• chill should stop utility skill recharge to +90% or even 100% to compensate for the semi immunity.

Nobody will disagree that there is a problem with chill affecting thieves. Now, consider this hypothetical scenario:

• imagine for a moment if warriors were semi-immune to blind. What if warriors could connect a hit 50/50 even when blinded?

I can think of lots of ways to fix the chill problem; one of the easiest solutions I think would be to get rid off the -xx% skill cool down for ALL classes. That way everyone would be affected by just -66% speed.

Maybe they should take 2000000% more dmg under the effect of chill?

Nah that’d be generous. Although being rooted on chill basically would equal something like that. Going from evading hits altogether to soaking them all up as if chill can’t get to a high duration. Maybe confusion should backstab ourselves?

That is not a bad idea, considering how many back stab spammers are there.

Sarcasm OP, please give up. You and no other supporter of yours has provided any evidence that thieves are op in this matter. Idk what BWE was like for gw2 but if it did have chill effect thieves initiative pool and it was removed before release, that speaks for itself.

Exmirt.7083:

NinjaEd.3946:

When you interrupt a thief that was about to use a skill, that skill should have a 3-4 second cool down just like other profession. The reason why thieves are so OP at evades and escape is because they can SPAM any skill they want.

For example:
Lets say that a thief was about to use cloak and dagger to stealth, if you interrupt him, he can IMMEDIATELY use it again.

I think the reason why thieves are so over powered at evades and stealth is because they have CONSTANT access to them regardless of interrupts.

The thing I do not like about thieves is that they can SPAM any skill they please. This makes them annoying to fight, and more annoying is that they have huge DPS and condition damage.

Summary:
If you interrupt a thief’s skill, that skill should have a 3-4 second cool-down just like any other profession who was about to use the skill. The thief will still have access to utility skills and weapon swapping skills.

Ok. Let me make things clear for you. First of all, if you interrupt a thief’s cloak and dagger (you need some kind of cc to interrupt), him can’t use it immediately again. You will have time to deal with him meanwhile. Also, you can always blind him, dodge his attack, have aegis or any other block skill to prevent him to go stealth.

About skill spamming. You see thieves have 12 initiatives (15 if traited). You say they can spam any skill they want? Any skill that you want to spam costs 3-6 initiative. If want to spam a skill, you’ll end up with no skill to use after 2-4 skills. On the other hand, every class has 2 sets of weapons which means 10 skills (except ele which has 20). With that option, you’ll never run out of skill to use, unlike a thief would.

Thiefs don’t have constant access to stealth and evade. To stealth you have couple of options: Cloak and dagger = You need to deal the damage to go stealth which you can’t if you don’t have an enemy close to you or you have blind or if enemy dodges or has aegis/block. Shadow refuge has a long cooldown and since your position is obvious you’ll get aoe dmg and also can be pushed out of it. Blinding powder also has a long cooldown for a short amount of stealth. You can trait steal to get stealth but you can get better traits. You can go stealth by leaping out of smoke combo field with d/p build that is shadow refuge all over again. About evade, you have s/d nr 3 which costs 4 initiative (5 soon) , a healing skill which evades back and +15 endurance gain after dodging. DD nr3 skill has 0.50 secs cast time but evades only 0.25 seconds so it can be interrupted.

Lets talk about what thiefs don’t have : Average amount of base hp, protection, aegis, reliable stability, enough condition removing options, reliable utility cc’s. So if you remove stealth and dodging out of the equation, we’ll just be walking dummies.

Where exactly did you pull that “quote”? That just has the near exact opposite position that I stand for. I never use “Summary:” in my posts…..

roamzero.9486:

The SB Choking Gas nerf is pretty ridiculous too, considering Mesmers can summon phantasms and clones without breaking stealth.

Maybe that’ll change O.o

Although they could literally do nothing to Mesmer and it would be considered a nerf for how many bugs they have.

@ Bruno

I was thinking about that, and a simple (thought) on it would be it prioritizes either the skill type with the most of its kind on cooldown or it would prioritize the most recent skill type used. It would still focus only on utility skills, but the effect would cross over to SoM or skelk venom if their respective skill types were used in the utility slot. It lets the thieves know what skills they can expect to use last in an effort to make the most out of Improvisation combo instead of the rng element we face with it now.

Reason I’m against the idea of double venoms is it would be impossible to balance DV without destroying it non-traited. BV really goes nowhere with this trait, ice drake sucks still. The whole point is venoms can be easily tossed out if the enemy knows what they’re doing so in a smaller scale setting (self venom build) you could still end up throwing a 45 second cooldown at them with 0 benefit and 0 alternative uses. I believe if the route the thief wants to take is venoms for themselves then it should be strong internally and not just throwing more chances for them to waste.

For example, pop skale venom to get some stacks on them, now enter stealth for a sneak attack with a bonus condition duration. BV on a power build can become even more deadly with say s/p with only 4 trait points for such a bonus. Skelk can work towards a life siphon build mixed with spider and pump out a heavy regeneration duration with constant healing (would be atleast 8 trait points for such a set up).

You won’t be going as heavy into venoms but you will see a great bonus for doing so and if you wish go 4 points further to turn that into a support build. The most likely reason why venoms overall don’t get the stand alone flashy feel is because they’re an offensive utility. I mean look at ranger traps, they are pretty bad without a few traits into them, engineer offensive turrets are the same, necromancer minions are the same, etc.

People flock to the more defensive utilities because they use their traits/runes/sigils/weapons to do the damage for the most part, thief is almost dependent on skills like SS and either another stun breaker or stealth just to stay on top of things so requiring an investment would be horrible for those kinds of things. Offensive though you’re adding more to a list of things you can already do, and while venoms do need some help they shouldn’t be at an A+ without an investment or it would get Q.Q really quick.

@ Bruno

The residual effect would only take effect if there is no active venom, so if you pre casted the venom you wouldn’t get any residual effect until you spent all the charges. Even so, I decided a full reverse signet is a little poor for a class all about quick decisions so I lowered the residual effect to 10 seconds.

Improvisation most certainly would not only reward single type skills. It would recharge any utility skill type on cooldown. Say you have skelk venom, blinding powder, shadow refuge and skale venom (some sort of life siphon build) and you pop skale venom. Knowing you plan to steal, you also put on skelk venom and steal, it isn’t applying to deception skills. The potential strength of double utility is really high, I’m not sure you feel its potential.

I’m saying some venoms do not stand on their own, that doesn’t mean all venoms are kitten without an investment. Could they all use a little help w/o traits? Yes but viable doesn’t always mean best in slot. For stealth purposes I wouldn’t say smoke screen is weak just because I could use blinding powder. Blinding powder is just easier to use and has stealth on demand vs needing a combo (and initiative) but it still works in its own way.

Some venoms do stand on their own, but you never slot a utility skill without it contributing to your build in more than 1 way. No class has a complete set of utility skills that pull their weight without some investment, venoms are the thieves build of choice. Karka venom like I said would be for non-venom builds because of the condi clear that they more than often need, DV already stands on its own as does BV. Spider skale and skelk however do not, but traited could work as such.

It would be nice to see more skills for once, so a new venom could be useful but I doesn’t change the fact that venoms are a majority of the time used as utility. Skale is the only outlier and it doesn’t even fulfill that well, a lower cooldown though with more charges could certainly help and that is without an investment.

I agree that residual venom is a trash trait, which is why I suggested the addition of charges to certain venoms while giving the venoms themselves a lasting effect. The numbers and the effects are open to changes but my thought on residual venom is you put out this quick little burst which may or may not help, but now you’re stuck with this long cooldown.

Slotting a few venoms you have very few choices for the other slots such as a stun breaker or teleport or stealth. Prior such an investment would make you rather glassy (6 trait points) so I decided with such a huge buff to improvisation and trying to make venoms less of a drastic build you get the choice, quicker venoms or a form of defense built into it. With leeching venoms (4 trait points) and residual venoms (4 trait points) you could make a self venom build relying on life siphon and some utility or even just slot in skelk venom to maintain the regeneration proc.

The only reason I suggested that change for residual venom is because it was a lousy trait but also some venoms really don’t have an impact on a fight. They do their thing real quick and its over. Having multiple counters (cleaving evaded, blind, etc) you could basically deny an entire utility/elite/healing skill and in some cases it was a harsh punishment. Atleast this way you could maintain some lasting benefit and you wouldn’t need to invest heavy into venoms such as 6/x/6/x/x.

I’ll rework the trait’s description a little.

-Residual venom: Venoms have a lesser effect after they are spent. Duration 10 seconds.

(effects posted above).

More of a window now as opposed to a permanent bonus that you would keep over the venom. Still, a full venom build loses out on stun breaking and valuable teleports and/or stealth. I feel like if you spec’ed hard enough into it there should be some benefit in the event that you are completely countered since there are so many ways to spend a venom charge without it proc’ing.

@Ryu

Skelk has the misfortune of being a venom. By that I mean if your target blinds you, evades you, blocks you, reflects you, you consume a charge. If you use an AoE and miss a bunch you’ve just tossed all your charges out the door and gained nothing. The potential heal from skelk is no doubt high, but in practice its both heavy risk and easily interrupted considering the thief has no reliable stability (hammer train hurts). Skale torment doesn’t last long so although the pain might get there it won’t last long and if its spread amoungst a bunch of enemies its hardly noticeable. The vulnerability is nice but that’s about it.

It’s a very group centric build to the point where it depends on your allies to help you in order to help them. Hence why I enjoy venom share but am disappointed with it still.

Honestly op, you’re better off finding a new game. Pvp in this game is incredibly stale and boring to watch/play. With balance patches coming once every 4+ months and nothing new being added to the mix its time to stop holding your breath.

Evilek.5690:

Black Teagan.9215:

Traps are crap (like venoms)

LoL venoms/traps is really powerfull this is only L2P issues.

Tripwire – 3 sec knock down every 25 sec is really strong and you kill all paper enemy on this single stun.

Ambus – perma minion, really good on venom share build.

Shadow Trap – easy combat breaker or powerfull offensive spell when you use dagger.

And venoms ? All venoms is great with venom share.

Troll much?

3 sec kd with an obvious white box when planted. Only fools fall for it.

Not perma minion, it dies in seconds and doesn’t even do much damage. The blind field is the only good thing it offers.

The trigger effect of shadow trap is nice, but you can’t escape combat easily unless it has triggered in a conveinient way. The non-trigger “stun break” has a cast time making it quite easy to interrupt or even kill them in the last second.

Ice drake, skale, and skelk venom suck. Neither have any impression in a fight compared to the other options. DV is good control BV good for combo’s, spider for leeching venom proc, that’s really it.

Ergolicious.1507:

One word: Caltrops <3

That was 3 O.o

On a serious note, yes you can make a condi build in tpvp but the p/d is the only strong condi set which requires stealth. It’s good for sitting on the side line but against sufficient condition removal you can’t contest a point. D/d is just so obvious to counter too so no luck there :/

Black Teagan.9215:

Traps are crap (like venoms)

Venoms are better though! TEAM VENOM!

BurrTheKing.8571:

NinjaEd.3946:

BurrTheKing.8571:

You CAN counter a Stab stomp, not as the guy getting downed but your team can strip it off and CC. Often you can do this in one motion, like with Throw Mine or Corrupt Boon. I’m NOT OK with immunity stomps, there’s no counterplay to it except to revive the player before the stomp lands.

How is that any different from a teammate of yours cc’ing the thief while they blind stomp? Or your teammate killing the thief before they can get the stomp off?

People running x/p aren’t tanky, you should tell your team to use their noggin if they can’t figure out how to counter a localized blind field that can be safely cleaved on the outside with melee.

Smoke field =/= immunity

You can just reuse BP again. If you pop Stability and got it stripped, chances are you don’t have any more access to it without a Guard (maybe Engi) giving it to you. You lost something significant. In they time you’re stomping most of the cost for BP regens. Some builds have the stun on Steal so if you get CC’d by just 1 person then you can interrupt the heal and bind both of them and try again.

I think that the relative cost for a free stomp should be as close to equal across all class. In PvP and WvW getting that stomp is THE MOST IMPORTANT PART of a fight, and being able to do it easily isn’t OK whether it’s perma blind or invuln.

There are zero methods of boon stripping while you are downed, so if the argument is that allies should be able to rescue you if you’re trapped in the downed state within a BPS then it is no different from stability or invuln stomping. Sure those effects have longer cooldowns but it still comes down to your teammates reaction.

Also a thief is meant to pick off the back line, they can’t sit in an AoE cluster and swing hap hazardly. Having the ability to smite and finish off an enemy is what they excel at, but others can do it too if they’re set up to do so.

Regardless, the downed mechanic is a joke with only a select few having any chance of rallying, they should look into balancing this out before looking for ways to nerf finishers. BPS will still be used for this purpose though, just you’ll have a better shot at interrupting them now.

[Venom traits]

-Venomous strength: (I did not make this, but my suggestion is kitten compared to this). Gain might for each unique venom strike you successfully execute. Might duration 10 seconds(?). Rewards successfully venom hits as opposed to pre casting venoms. Also buffs the venom support build by pumping out some high might stacks for allies.

-Quick venoms: additional functionality, “each successful venom strike lowers the cooldown of that venom by 1 second.” (For example, spider venom will not lower the cooldown of any other venom but itself). Another example to reward successful applications of the venoms. Small strike venoms won’t see much of a difference but its a dual function trait, it can’t be all mighty.

-Residual venoms: Lowered to Master triats of Deadly arts in replace of improvisation. New functionality, " venoms have lesser effects while on cooldown".
[Spider] 2 seconds of poison every 3rd consecutive attack.
[Skale] +10% condition duration.
[Skelk] 3 seconds of regeneration every 5th consecutive attack.
[Karka] -10% incoming condition duration when above 50% health.
[Devouer] Regenerate initiative at double the rate while disabled.
[Basilisk] +10% damage towards disabled enemies.

no longer grants 1 additional strike

-Improvisation: Moved to GM trait slot. Now on a successful steal, recharge 1 skill type of an equipped utility skill that is on cooldown. Added an ICD of 35 seconds. Ofcourse if no utility skill is on cooldown no effect. Reason this is being moved to GM is because a full deception set up or full venom set up basically gets a free ride with this trait. The bundle damage had no place in this trait because thief doesn’t have bundles, but the potential strength of blowing every utility skill and recharging them fully is very strong. To help balance things out a little, this skill has the ICD to limit abuse from 21 second recharges.

-Leeching venoms: Increased healing power scaling from 0.2 to 0.4 and increased the siphon damage scaling from 0.033 to 0.1. This trait is primarily for venom share but I feel like it could use some buff for those who wish to experiment with it for an alternate source of sustain that is less common and therefore more of a surprise to the enemy. *This effect will proc from the 3rd strike with spider venom on cooldown and the 5th strike from skelk venom on cooldown if you have residual venom’s trait equipped. *

-Venomous aura: Added functionality, “for each ally you grant a venom to, gain condition duration”. +5% condition duration per ally, max cap at 25%. Duration of condition duration bonus 6 seconds. Effect will not refresh on new venom application until the previous effect expired. This effect does not apply to the venom you applied to gain this effect.

This is meant to reward the thief for maximizing the venom benefits but the short window means it comes down to a quick execution. Since the upcoming changes to venomous aura will work off the thief’s own stats, you get 6 seconds to spend those venom charges if you want to maximize this benefit. This also rewards the thief for using the venoms at the best possible moment as opposed to pre casting them and letting the venom duration tick down for your venoms to be almost off cooldown by the time it wears off.

-Slowed pulse- Removed for being easily out done by shadow protector for stealth based builds. For venom based builds a new trait is introduced [Inspiring Venoms] Gain healing power for each equipped venom. Healing power per venom 40. Like deep strike except for a venom support build. Self using venom builds wouldn’t look into this for the low pay out but a heavy invested venom build would get a nice bonus from this (up to 200 extra healing power). Being a adept major trait it gets a nice set up towards the end of the trait line without being overpowering towards lesser investments.

From what I can recall on my long ago posts on the subject,

[Venoms]

-Spider venom- lowered poison duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds. Increased number of strikes from 5 to 8. Cooldown reduced to 30 seconds. (Meant to aid in leeching venoms and help out with AoE attacks in case they are evaded).

-Ice drake venom- Changed to [Karka Venom]; your next 3 attacks transfer a condition to your foe. Cooldown remains at 45 seconds. (give more support to the build, which could also be utilized for non-venom share builds if they want to fight dirty).

-Devourer Venom- Venom duration reduced to 20 seconds.

-Skale venom- Increase number of strikes from 3 to 5. Reduced vulnerability duration from 10 to 8 seconds. Cooldown lowered to 40 seconds.

-Skelk Venom- Increased number of strikes from 4 to 6. Healing power scaling on strike heal increased from 0.2 to 0.5. Changed functionality, “you can only spend 1 strike per attack”( In other words, a cleave will only consume 1 charge). Cooldown remains at 45 seconds. Venom duration reduced to 10 seconds. The hps of this skill is quite awful because of the heavy risk it has if you miss. It has a cast time, and it has a very distinct icon when active so it should have a little more safety measures incorporated.

-Devourer venom- add functionality “your next attack is unblockable”. This skill has a cast time, a distinct icon, and doesn’t have the “elite” feel to it. Granted 1.5 seconds is a lot of time for a glass cannon to do something overall it doesn’t have a strong impact as an elite skill. A duration increase would be unfair at this point so removing 1 of the many counters towards it should help out.

Venoms aren’t meant for a condition build though. Just look at the conditions that venoms can apply. Immobilize, vulnerability, poison (hinder their healing). Venoms are quite literally a utility as they are. Its the build however that is lacking from any significant role. It does help no doubt, but its not very thought out aside from smashing button ands using your attacks to throw them onto enemies.

Things like you said, might on hit as opposed to might on activation would greatly improve the build. Relocating the traits into 1 trait line wouldn’t help that much because of how some of the traits work. You don’t have to go 6 into DA to make use of a venom build, in fact I’ve suggested they actually drop residual venom to master slot so if they want quicker recharge venoms or more of them (I also suggested a change to residual venoms, forgot the details though). Gives them more options without such a heavy investment.

Seems a bit too vague. Why would you want to remove veil exactly after “redesigning” Mesmer? Seems like it’d be just a punch in the kitten for no good reason.

I won’t post my exact build but I do have over 1,100 healing power on it being power orientated. Basically I turn leeching venoms into my damage and sustain for the group plus the fact that DV X3 applications X5 people is insane group control.

I’d say no to the first part because it would basically have to rework all the venoms to be balanced around an infinite application.

I’d say no to the 2nd part only because we don’t want to share the same issue LB ranger has with too many solid trait options in 1 trait line. Even though it makes zero sense to be tied to “shadow arts” it needs a place. Leeching venoms ties nicely to the healing power from its trait line and venomous aura requires you being near your allies which likely means frontline so the extra toughness from the trait line helps there too. I do wish leeching venoms applied off each unique venom application so that multiple venoms don’t share 1 charge but maybe its just a skill thing I don’t agree with.

I’d be all in favor of might on hit. Atm I feel like the might doesn’t make an impression unless I blow every single cd which leaves me completely vulnerable. It would be a nice buff to spider venom for sure.

I’ve talked about venoms in the past, I’ve seen a random thread here and there talking about venoms (not necessarily buffing them), it never goes anywhere. It’s like the elephant in the room.

I will say that the venoms have a nice touch to them it just doesn’t work as people would like. It comes down to the venom “build” as well as the venoms themselves. Wish they would dedicate more than a 5 minute segment to these but I suppose its asking for too much when we got a bugged steal, last refuge kitten, and constant Q.Q from beginners. Tough life tis the tief way

Close thread, anyone? Hello? I know yall don’t actually listen to thief feedback but I DO know you shut down toxic threads. Just hoping someone gives a kitten anymore….

BurrTheKing.8571:

You CAN counter a Stab stomp, not as the guy getting downed but your team can strip it off and CC. Often you can do this in one motion, like with Throw Mine or Corrupt Boon. I’m NOT OK with immunity stomps, there’s no counterplay to it except to revive the player before the stomp lands.

How is that any different from a teammate of yours cc’ing the thief while they blind stomp? Or your teammate killing the thief before they can get the stomp off?

People running x/p aren’t tanky, you should tell your team to use their noggin if they can’t figure out how to counter a localized blind field that can be safely cleaved on the outside with melee.

Smoke field =/= immunity

Safe to say this topic is meaningless and likely to be closed for this after school p***ing contest.

Dun care who or what is posting, bottom line the s/d “nerf” wasn’t all that bad despite s/d not being the source of the Q.Q. Either deal with it or move to another class, I imagine you didn’t pick thief up without knowing it gets odd patches.

Man these forums are toxic :/

Siva Mira.3546:

Why would you want to make a simple removing condi into something complicate, with that change you can not remove condition when you want to.

Because thief is built with a lot of evasion, not just endurance “dodge”. 2 conditions per 10 seconds would be very strong if it didn’t have some fine print. Mix in PR with fleet on foot with s/x and withdraw and conditions would be meaningless against you. Besides this is 1 master trait we’re talking about, it shouldn’t cover such a large defense on its own.

Obtena.7952:

NinjaEd.3946:

Obtena.7952:

NinjaEd.3946:

Obtena.7952:

Chrispy.5641:

What about the professions that have no access to poison?

What about not running solo in group content, then wondering why a class is dificient in poison?

Can still end up not having poison in group content. Just sayin, its not on every build let alone every profession (4/8 if they even use it).

So, we nerf healing then? I don’t think so.

Where did I say nerf their healing?

That was the context of the reply I made to that guy. You didn’t say it, but it’s not too much to ask you understand the context of why it was made if your going to respond.

You can still be in a group and not have sufficient access to poison. From the last ready up the EU shout caster even said they often focus the guardian because his healing is keeping them up. Even if you poison that guardian it’s not difficult for him to remove it. You don’t hear that kind of talk against other builds atm holding a team up so well, which is the reason for a thread like this.

I actually would say bring the other professions’ healing potential closer to guardian because it’s not a strong stat for most atm. Some still fall far back to compete with guardian. It shouldn’t be a case of “what guardian does”, it should be something they may excel at but not by this margin. Hardly a power creep either because guardian support is obviously viable, it’s just bringing others in line with what works while letting them do it in their own fashion (venom healing, mantra healing, necro siphoning, etc). I wouldn’t say guardian healing is op because they hit for next to nothing on those builds, its a perfect example of opportunity costs which should reflect onto other classes that don’t have these kinds of builds.

The old philosophy of, “all professions can fill all roles if they spec into it” seems misplaced atm.

Siva Mira.3546:

Jesse.4631:

Siva Mira.3546:

2 conditions on dodge is OP. It is more reasonable to drop it to Adept Tier and remove 1 condition on dodge with 10sec CD.

I wouldn’t mind it being moved up to Grandmaster Tier, i do agree that it being a Master trait would be over the top, but it having a chance to remove any condition would be a good buff to thieves who don’t trait into SA for condition removal

Making it to Grandmaster Tier would just limit the use of it.

NinjaEd.3946:

Siva Mira.3546:

2 conditions on dodge is OP. It is more reasonable to drop it to Adept Tier and remove 1 condition on dodge with 10sec CD.

It does have an ICD of 10 seconds. If need be increase it to 15 seconds and allow it to remove 2 conditions on successful dodge (not just pressing it).

I don’t know what do you mean “on successful dodge” unless you are talking about a very rare chance where you dodge into ward skills that only noob would do. For me 15sec CD would too unreliable to use.

Successful dodge meaning you actually evade an attack, versus just dodging off in the distance for mobility. Basically it would only proc in combat where are attacks are being made or from a ranged attack on your escape out.

Redesign

Invigorating Precision-

There seems to be some confusion on the point of this trait. While it fits nicely being in the critical trait line, it’s opportunity cost is awful here. You either give up a large part of your build (BS with hidden killer) or you give up a massive chunck of assassin dps that the thief is so well known for (executioner).

As it stands, this trait doesn’t work off healing power in any form and is off critical hits only. Unless all you do is crit for high numbers in an AoE (no such thing except maybe pve) it doesn’t help sustain at all. It most certainly shouldn’t be out of control to the point where it replaces your healing skill but it needs a functionality change so that all builds can look at it and feel like there is some gain from it.

The Change

-allow it to scale off healing power. For every 100 healing power you get, it increases that healing percent by 0.5%. So at 1,300 healing power(a respectable amount but not 100% invested) you get about 14.5% of your critical damage dealt in healing. In addition the base value for area of effect skills (hits multiple targets) will remain at 8% but single target skills such as unload, back stab, heartseeker, shadow shot, etc will have a base of 12% (richoet would not disable any pistol skills from receiving this bonus).

Point being this GM trait would not be tailored to one set up, it would be flexible towards all. Gm traits make up a trait line pretty well and for the most part thief has that luxury. Single target skills would not be getting any broken multiple with this trait but it will give a little return for the fact that it can only hit 1 target (compete with hidden killer for a BS build).

Thoughts?

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Axialbloom.8109:

Surprised Combustive Shot was not heavily nerfed. That thing ruins much of pvp.

combustive shot has already gone through a few heavily unreasonable nerfs.

combustive shot is a well balance burst skill, and it is in a very fine spot at the moment.
no further adjustments are necessary.

would you kindly please stop making unreasonable claims?
thank you.

Dat warrior defender. If only pvp wasn’t a majority of warrior builds you would have a point.

Dagger X2 target on the auto attack q.q here we come!

Now we have another thing for them to complain about even if doesn’t help at all :/

Siva Mira.3546:

2 conditions on dodge is OP. It is more reasonable to drop it to Adept Tier and remove 1 condition on dodge with 10sec CD.

It does have an ICD of 10 seconds. If need be increase it to 15 seconds and allow it to remove 2 conditions on successful dodge (not just pressing it).

Bug fixes where?

Also, IP still going to be poor… CS depends on the end GM, and IP does nothing to compensate for that dps loss. You’d think you lose some gain some but 8% won’t accomplish that.

An elite with over a 50% uptime on the boons applied is a little over the top (almost all builds had some form of a boon or all boon duration increase so it was over) . Signet of rage was the most common elite choice because of how much it could be utilized (fury is a really nice boon to have up all the time). Before it was the reverse healing signet, keeping it off cooldown was bad. Can’t say I’m in favor of more passive play but it gives meaning to both parts of the signet which is good. Wish they could apply that logic to healing signet :/

RyuDragnier.9476:

Bhawb.7408:

Sarrs.4831:

Something I wonder about; think there’ll be changes to Well of Darkness and Blinding Plague?

There is a very key difference here: Black Powder is an ability with 0 CD that allows you to secure a stomp on demand every single fight, whereas WoD is a fairly long CD (for a worse field as far as comboing goes, and only 2s longer duration, but larger), and Plague is a massive CD. Its not really easy to compare something that can guarantee a stomp every single time someone goes down to abilities with very significant drawbacks to their use.

I rarely see any thief stomp after setting a black powder. Most use Shadowstep since it’s easier to start the animation, Shadowstep away, and then immediately Shadow Return for a guaranteed stomp. And if they really wanted to do away with that problem for downed state, wouldn’t it be easier to just make it so people in downed state are immune to blind?

Well timed #2 skills can still hit them. I’ve done it on my guardian and I’ve had it done to me from a guardian. Necro is the same, engi would have to rely on the #3 since the #2 isn’t instant. Bottom line blind stomping is far more reliable than SS stomping.

2 pages already, wow. This guy is kittened off for sure :/

I’ll agree the change wasn’t necessary but it doesn’t exactly change anything towards the “good” thieves who were using s/d. It adds a little counterplay to the “perma evade” but really s/d and acrobatics wasn’t the issue. It’s those kitten double sigil proc’s that make up for any loss damage for not going into a dps trait line. When I can add ~1.4k extra every so and so seconds and focus my traits into my defenses you get what people cry over.

Overall this patched really didn’t move thief anywhere. They made some efforts and I know this game is against wac-a-mole patches but they should of taken the same approach on thief as they did ranger to pull them out of the stale build diversity we’ve fallen into. I’m just getting bored of thief, its hard to enjoy it anymore when nothing changes.

vincecontix.1264:

Can anyone sum up the changes?

-Dagger aa chain hits up to 2 targets now. BS unaffected (I’d assume).
-BPS now pulses once every 2 seconds. Blind reduced to 2 seconds.
-Venom share now works off your stats not your allies (i.e condition damage, healing power).
-Richochet now grants 150 range in addition to its other effects. Also the bounce is “more reliable”.
-Unload has a shorter cast time (~20% faster).
-Flanking strike now costs 4 initiative
-Larcenous strike now costs 1 initiative however it will not be available unless FS hit something.
-choking gas now has a “hit” associated with it (so it will cause reveal).
-IP now grants 8% of your critical damage dealt as healing.
-Panic strike now has a 2.5 second immobilize base with a 20 sec ICD.

Also….

-Steal still bugged
-many useless traits still stand. This is gana apply to all 8 professions it seems like :/
-thief Q.Q will continue to rise.

IMO it was a neutral change. Nothing really exciting, nothing class breaking though. I’ll still play mine.

TrOtskY.5927:

NinjaEd.3946:

TrOtskY.5927:

NinjaEd.3946:

Quick question on guardian, what kind of healing do they pump out (numbers, frequency, etc) on their healway or altruistic builds? Video or build link would be helpful (up to date).

I wrote a big post above outlining exactly this, check it out. The healing is quite high but not as high as is made out, and a lot of it is situational as well.

Link to such post? I can’t find it in your post history.

just scroll up

I guess I need a build link because I’m looking numbers to compare to an engi build I made (don’t claim it as mine, just made it up as I went).

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQJAqelUUpArtbxPLseRiaBNqzE6MmjAIyPGyPFBA-T1xDABM8AAQT9nR0DglyPn2fAgTAAgKBFEQ0A-w

Atm, didn’t get fully ascended because I don’t want to invest if I can improve it. Basically from what I’ve been doing at world events I’m a stronger AoE healing signet for the group with sufficient condi clear for them. It requires me to be in the mix though hence my high toughness and defense against cc.

So many green numbers, ~400 for the each bomb or ~500 on the super elixir pulse with aoe regen, etc. It’s a lot of green numbers, enough to pull boom boom baines hate on me the entire fight even though I had little to no damage on her. Looking into translating this to wvw on the frontline.

ehh…….. not good. Not horrible, but not good either.

Meh, hardly a nerf just a disappointment that they didn’t open anything up. Same builds, no one is going to use IP still, sb taunting is out the window they might as well delete sb.

Our first 1,050 range though O.o sucks p/p is still awful and p/d was fine already.