What I would really like to see is some objective person roll level 80 for each profession and give some rank of how the professions stack against each other. I get that warrior is better than Guardian. What else?
Pulsing, AOE aura effects seem appropriate for a ‘spirit’ theme. Effects like cleanse, finishers, fields. I guess anything could be put on them.
You missed the point … selfish isn’t a reason to tell people how to play, no matter how bad you think their gear is. Think of it this way, being a jerk isn’t a reason to tell people they can’t post on the forums, no matter how offensive they are.
I’m not debating if you want to call it selfish. Call it whatever you want if it makes you warm and tingly. It’s really not relevant what label you want to put on them because they aren’t going anywhere. They aren’t changing their gaming values because others don’t like it. If you don’t like selfish people, don’t play with them.
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Depends what your game values are. not everyone puts value in ‘full potential’, especially considering this isn’t a competitive aspect of the game. Their opinion on what they need to do will be different. It’s selfish to tell someone their values don’t matter so they should adopt someone else’s. Therefore, we have a bunch of people that play how they want being selfish .. we have a bunch of people telling them how to play being selfish. Selfishness is clearly not a motivator to convince people to throw away the things they value to align themselves with others values.
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What you feel is a benchmark isn’t very realistic. The benchmark is not the one you choose because you like it. Any disparity between some elements of two profs may be intended and is typically balanced by the sum of all their elements; something that’s more complex that a few numbers on a spreadsheet. These things are dependent on the concept of the class, determined by developers. That’s why profession comparisons through their individual parts aren’t compelling.
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How do you “know” the conclusion is not to buff VoR?
If I do a similar comparison with any other profession against warrior I come to the same conclusion. Warrior comes on top for the same reasoning in this thread. That indicates a problem with Warrior and that’s not fixed with VOR buff.
OR …
the whole comparison is nonsensical in the first place because your choosing your ideal nemesis to create the illusion of disparity between classes … you take your pick.
While I believe Virtues as a whole could be more significant, While I believe Virtues as a whole could be more significant, I think the ‘gap’ that has been engineered between Guardian and Warrior is exaggerated in occurrence. The significance of the gap is a function of severity AND occurrence. Fundamentally, the balance between 2 classes is not lead you to a conclusion that one of the two is flawed.
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The problem arises when they can take our primary specialty without giving up their own.
That is a fictitious problem that people have created to justify their calls to buff VoR.
What is the concept of the Virtues? How does VoR fit in with that concept? If the mechanics of VoR don’t fit in with the concept, then there is a justification to change it. That has Sweet F All to do with what a Warrior can achieve when spec-ing themselves out for healing.
Put a different way, why should a warrior in full berzerker gear heal only himself for more than my guardian in cleric gear who routinely soaks up allies’ conditions via SY?
I don’t know. I’m not even assuming that’s a problem. Maybe that completely fits in with whatever roadmap Anet has for the two professions. I do know one thing … even if that is a problem, the conclusion to fix it is NOT a buff to VoR. Such a problem can only be addressed at a higher level … it’s a game balance issue, not a ‘Guardian VOR’ issue.
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True, but then again, if it took no effort, they would already be at that point. Again, if it takes effort to improve and people are already happy with their performance ingame, then why would they bother?
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Frankly, Celestial is an anti-choice. It’s just buffs your baseline for everything, which is basically choosing nothing. At a minimum, I would advice you only use the Celestial that is optimizing stat returns (Chest and Legs IIRC)
All professions are equally capable, so it’s not unreasonable to compare them all if you wish to justify a buff to VoR with profession comparisons. I’m just wondering where your objectivity is by choosing ONLY warrior to compare to.
I already said what I think about VoR if you look earlier in the thread. If players are truly going to attempt to influence development with Anet, then the cherry picked examples aren’t really going to work. I don’t care to argue with players. I care to see something that might make a lightbulb go on in the head of a dev. Cherry picked cases don’t’ do that.
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The only fallacy here is that people have no context for their case to buff VoR based on a comparison to a SINGLE other profession. What I’m illustrating is that people are cherry picking a case that puts your position in the most positive light. Why don’t you compare VoR and Guardian healing to something else? Is the case for buffing VoR as good if you compare to other professions? I don’t think it will be.
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1) Achievement points
bad. achievement points dont matter. i know players with 2k AP who can solo lupi and play better than 10k AP staff guardians.
It’s all about probability.
Then that distribution has a HUGE standard deviation. While I don’t find any ONE of those particularly good metric for a ‘good’ player, having a few of them simultaneously will be fairly indicative. I dislike the utilities suggestion … you can pretty much swap those on the fly if you know your dungeon run well enough.
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I would choose Knights over Celestial. if I had to choose.
My two biggies"
1. Spirit weapon concept is broken. It needs a whole rethink; the trait distribution, the weapons themselves, etc… They are not used for many reasons.
2. Virtues are not a strong class defining ability. The virtue line stat buff needs to benefit Passive Virtue in some way. There needs to be MORE or OTHER traits to enhance them in and outside the Virtue line.
I wonder what teams that don’t have a guardian think of that statement.
You just can’t admit that people who don’t understand the game are bad.
boring QQ
still waiting for you to admit it and not ramble on about play how you want
People that don’t understand the game tend to be bad players. If I don’t understand chess, that would make me a pretty bad chess player. That goes without saying, that is to say you aren’t making much of a point with that statement. No one in this thread said otherwise. Your just trying to be argumentative … again. It also doesn’t change what my point was in the other posts I made.
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Then who is bad?
Why does it matter … no, SERIOUSLY. Make teams with people that share YOUR game values and it won’t matter who is bad and who isn’t. Just play your game, ignore the people that don’t align with what you value when you play. It is literally THAT simple.
You haven’t answered my question.
Or you’re pretending that everybody is a great player – just that some doesn’t share my idea of DG running and thus play with horrible builds and gear and facetank everything and dies every single boss swing?
(And no, that isn’t summed in “They’re not skipping/stacking/using full zerk”.
There’s a difference in “non min/maxed” playing and “simply and downright bad” playing.
Get it.)Again, enlightend us.
The answer is that I never really thought to hard about it. I know it’s not a black and white issue. There’s no ‘line’ to cross going from bad to good. Put it this way, I don’t think the gear you choose determines if you are good or bad.
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BINGO!
For a more technical reason: AH depends on the positioning of your teammates. It’s at its best when your team is in your radius.
So, basically AH promotes stacking.
Sure, but only to the benefit of the Guardian running it.
So its a matter of perception?
Anyway we can’t dodge forever can we?
BINGO!
For a more technical reason: AH depends on the positioning of your teammates. It’s at its best when your team is in your radius. It’s effectiveness has a wide range.
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You just can’t admit that people who don’t understand the game are bad.
It doesn’t serve a purpose to do so. Here is an example of the difference between a discussion and an argument. You argue because you don’t understand (or care to understand) what people are saying. If you wanted to have a real discussion and try to be convincing, you would have seen my point is that gaming values is what drives someone to play a certain way. What a player values doesn’t predispose them as ‘good’ or ‘bad’ players.
To be more specific; even if a player understands you get the most damage from zerkers doesn’t mean that the values they have will automatically dictate they use it. As I already stated, … if other players do a proper job to find and team others that share their values, then they will have no reason to complain about the ones that don’t.
People that have different ideas than you will always exist and their will always be alot of them. The responsibility is on YOU to avoid them if they are so misaligned to your own way of playing the game. There good? There bad? Completely academic and irrelevant. The difference is that you decide to label them for your own personal agenda.
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You’re both arguing semantics, it’s never going to reach a conclusion.
Agreed, but it’s the lack of acceptance that’s the most offensive here. Does anyone seriously think that they are going to ‘fix’ the problem with casuals? When someone says other people are bad because they don’t play a certain way, they aren’t doing it to ‘help people out’. It’s a thinly veiled insult solely for the reason to insult others. Do we need that?
Then who is bad?
Why does it matter … no, SERIOUSLY. Make teams with people that share YOUR game values and it won’t matter who is bad and who isn’t. Just play your game, ignore the people that don’t align with what you value when you play. It is literally THAT simple.
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They play their way because they have different gaming values than others do. That doesn’t define them as bad. Their values are the reason they enjoy continue playing. You aren’t going to have a compelling argument to convince them the reason they derive pleasure from the game is ‘bad’ or ‘wrong’. That goes to my original question to you .. why is this always some argument with you? Even if you COULD convince someone the reason they play is bad, berating them is probably the least compelling way to do it.
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Pretty sure they are trying to talk about class balance
An objective discussion about class balance would have other comparisons to the other 6 classes. It’s easy to cherry pick.
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Doesn’t anyone else think that this comparison is not relevant or am I in my own little world? WTH does it matter what a warrior does and how does that impact Guardian gameplay? I have never seen a compelling argument for change based on between-profession comparisons. I don’t see it now.
I didn’t see him say that … does everything have to be an argument starter with you? People play their way, you play yours. If you don’t like it, don’t play with those people. Find people that do share your game values and play with them. If yoru values are so prevalent that many people share them, then it should be no problem for you to do that. Problem solved.
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I think it’s connected, you make a less than optimal build, post it on your signature and you expect me to believe you will not defend your own build?
Don’t think … read. This thread isn’t about defending a build in my signature. I didn’t bring up this subject, YOU did. It’s there for trollbait … Somehow you seem to be making it a meal. You have made a connection between my signature and a post I’ve made. If some contradication between the two bothers you, then comment on the post, not the signature.
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Then it shouldn’t be a problem for you to link them.
Still I will give you the benefit of the doubt he did mean that because I don’t see how anyone comes to the conclusion they have been mislead by that statements indicating people will be able to get BiS gear. It is indeed possible for every player to equip themselves with BiS gear because all the activities to collect the mats to do so is within the grasp and capability of a casual player to do.
Scepter has more damage than people let on if you keep Smite up every 5 seconds. Your build is pretty much what I would recommend for PVE .. except the torch. And the fact your doing unscathed … you’re already playing in anticipation to keep your 90% HP for scholars.
If your willing, you can easily swap to GS and flip your trait when you want. Plenty of variety if your goal is lots of damage with this traiting.
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EVERYONE who made Celestial gear had to wait. OP, you aren’t an exception because you took a hiatus.
There is a risk here. Those updates are converting something fun and new into something tedious that could be found in any other legacy MMO.
That risk seems pretty low to me:
1) Farming nodes was never all that fun to start with
2) Crafting wasn’t all that fun to start with
The bottom line is that the reward matches the time/cost/effort for each quality level of gear.
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Not sure, but that’s not really a realistic scenario to waste time thinking about anyways now is it. You could justify any position with any sort of completely unlikely scenarios, the question is if it would happen or not. When you come to the conclusion it’s HIGHLY unlikely we would ever see ascended zerg vs exotic zerg, you realize how silly that position actually is. I could make the same argument about Fine vs. Masterwork … but how many fine vs. masterwork zergs have you seen happen? Don’t bother answering … the answer is it’s never happened.
What is more realistic is that statistically, the ratio of people in exotic/ascended gear will be the same for some random zerg because there is NO bias towards a specific server for getting their ascended gear faster than any other given the fact that they all have similar populations with the same opportunities to get the mats.
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ya, im fine with that, xpt that you can’t really burst with a full PTV gear setup.
And you have no stability fyiOfc you can burst, if you have survivability you will have time and if you have time you can stack might and if you can stack might you can have silly amounts of power.
Might stacking is very useful unless you meet a Necro or a thief. Never give a Thief free might stacks or you’ll end up wondering where the 12K backstab came from.
Sure, but that exception doesn’t make PVT gear any less good in WvW.
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just speculation your numbers and i dont wanna waste my time to argue with you about this
BUT
“And forum is here exactly for feedbacks from players to devs so it means a lot.”no its not
most important “Feedback” for them are the numbers ingame
- How many people already crafted to 500 and how fast.
- How many people have more than 1 Asc. Weapon
- Hows the effect on Economy
- How many use this System and how many ignore it….. alot more
this are numbers they can work with and not the outcry from 10-15 random strangers
No, those aren’t feedback on whether or not people LIKE ascended weapons. People who don’t like ascended weapons aren’t just going to boycott BiS gear.
Yea they do… because it’s not required gear to have for any part of the game. I know many of people that aren’t upgrading because they don’t need it for anything.
Except they provide a stat advantage. Eventually there will be full ascended, a full ascended character in wvw will have a decent advantage on an exotic geared character.
I think the people that have chosen to not craft that gear realize they are missing that advantage. Fact is you don’t need it, as proven by our success playing the game before Ascended gear was released.
Please tell me of how much you played wvw against people in full ascended before ascended gear was released. I’m quite intrigued.
I didn’t but then again, I’ve played enough mass PVP MMO’s to know that the more people you throw in a zerg, the less relevant any individual’s gear becomes. Maybe for 1 vs. 1, you have a point but for WvW, less so.
You vigorously defend your build, while saying others are followers. Have it occurred to you that you invested all that condi for burn alone?
I’ve VIGOUROUSLY defended my build? Is that something you just made up in your head? I would love to see where I did that.
You argue of separating bad players from good and yet you bring a less than optimal build. Where do you stand? What if i am the number 1 dungeon runner in GW2, can i run cleric’s on my guard and camp staff #1?
OK wait a minute … YOU were the first to mention the build in my signature. I’m not ‘bringing’ anything into this discussion about that build so if you think I’m somehow contradicting myself, you are confused. Maybe you shouldn’t get so hung up about what is in someone’s signature and simply stick to what is said in their posts.
I’m not arguing for separation of anything. I’m arguing that people should stop being sheep and learn something for themselves to make them better players instead of better followers.
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Leveling solo for PVE … DE made a very large difference. Before I got it, I considered dumping my Mesmer. Now, it’s fun.
Builds like those taught me more about the value of damage builds vs. anything I have read on these forums. It’s too bad more people don’t learn things for themselves and just used the builds they were told were the best like a good followers. What did they learn from that? How to semi-retire, troll forums and quit the game because of bads?
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That’s what I’m saying … no one should have special treatment. People that don’t know a dungeon STILL have the benefit of reading forums, watching Youtube vids, etc… the people that run the dungeons first didn’t. If discouraging vets from carrying people does that, I think that makes the caliber of player in this game better. Do we not want people to play better? I don’t care what category of player you are … we all want people to play to their best ability.
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I don’t think to dis-incentive vet/newbie grouping together is a good idea.
Forcing them to learn on their own, most will wipe, quit and qq on the forums. It’s not like we don’t have enough of those posts. Most of us are willing to teach, as long as they want to listen and learn. But it doesn’t mean i want to do it 24/7.
I don’t see why. Do you find it unreasonable that people are ‘forced’ to learn something through making mistakes? Let’s be honest here, there are TONS of resources to learn a dungeon without having a vet carry noobs through it. If your willing to teach, that’s fine. I think there is more value in someone learning themselves.
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just speculation your numbers and i dont wanna waste my time to argue with you about this
BUT
“And forum is here exactly for feedbacks from players to devs so it means a lot.”no its not
most important “Feedback” for them are the numbers ingame
- How many people already crafted to 500 and how fast.
- How many people have more than 1 Asc. Weapon
- Hows the effect on Economy
- How many use this System and how many ignore it….. alot more
this are numbers they can work with and not the outcry from 10-15 random strangers
No, those aren’t feedback on whether or not people LIKE ascended weapons. People who don’t like ascended weapons aren’t just going to boycott BiS gear.
Yea they do… because it’s not required gear to have for any part of the game. I know many of people that aren’t upgrading because they don’t need it for anything.
Except they provide a stat advantage. Eventually there will be full ascended, a full ascended character in wvw will have a decent advantage on an exotic geared character.
I think the people that have chosen to not craft that gear realize they are missing that advantage. Fact is you don’t need it, as proven by our success playing the game before Ascended gear was released.
If we go with the plain meaning, then best statistical gear means gear with the best statistics.
When that phrase was used it was used according to how MMO players would understand it, and to MMO players that phrase could only be interpreted as meaning the stats on the gear.
MMO players better learn some English then because describing something as the ‘best statistical’ that isn’t statistical in the first place doesn’t make any sense. Gear isn’t statistical just because it has numbers attached to it, no moreso than I can call any other object statistical.
Here is my theory:
1) The guy that said that doesn’t know what he said or didn’t say what he meant to say
2) He wanted to be vague.
When I first read that, my first interpretation for ‘best statistical’ was ‘most common’. That’s not a leap of logic either because there are three ‘kinds’ of ‘bests’ in statistics; mode, mean and median … adn they are all defined by a frequency of occurrence, not the highest value as what people are thinking here.
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Pay me and actually listen to my advice and Id gladly teach nubs.
Sure, but then don’t complain if no one knows how to do stuff.
Frankly, there should be a dis-incentive for veterans to team new people. They need to learn how to do it themselves and realize their potential instead of being told everything. You get better and more compassionate players that way.
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They are offering their time and expertise in exchange for your Gold. The part I dislike is that in the end, they are STILL benefiting from the rewards for completing the dungeon AND your gold too (also considering the fact that if you aren’t a scrub, you assisted them in completing the dungeon). So basically, you are paying them for their time/expertise AND the opportunity to earn gold using your assistance. It’s a bit of a scam IMO.
You are very wrong and it seems to me that you never solo any path on sale so you have no idea what’re you talking about. It’s piece of cake for those could do solo & duo and they can complete the dungeon w/o any assistance of any buyers. As a matter of fact, the buyer can just afk & doing nothing to get the end reward.
Speaking of those not skipping Lupi only.
That doesn’t change what I said. Even AFK, the buyer is paying you to earn dungeon rewards on top of what he’s paying you. How your doing it is not relevant. If your doing it solo, that’s your problem (I don’t consider that an efficient approach to making gold with this opportunity). I’m not calling you out for taking advantage of the system, but let’s be honest about what this is. Your not fooling people by denying it.
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Love it, now PVT isn’t even good enough for WvW, unless your a commander. I see a trend.
Anything that increases condition duration (like the pizza) won’t be seen directly in the times shown in the burning duration tooltips. It’s still there though.
They are offering their time and expertise in exchange for your Gold. The part I dislike is that in the end, they are STILL benefiting from the rewards for completing the dungeon AND your gold too (also considering the fact that if you aren’t a scrub, you assisted them in completing the dungeon). So basically, you are paying them for their time/expertise AND the opportunity to earn gold using your assistance. It’s a bit of a scam IMO.
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People aren’t seeing each profession as a whole. It sure is easy to convince yourself Guardians suck if you cut them into pieces and compare them to the best that other professions have to offer.
No justification to change something will make sense by comparing it to what other professions do. The justification for improving virtues is strong enough on the basis that there are deficiencies WITHIN the profession.
^^ I suspect very few people have experienced most gear for themselves. Most people are satisfied with having others tell them what to do and what they need to know. Then they just perpetuate the cycle of doing the same to everyone else and hope it catches on thinking a majority rules creates truth.
As for PVT, in WvW is definitely useful. PVE, it depends but less useful, especially if you can handle yourself in Zerkers.
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I am literally baffled by the concept of a single in-the-field respec costing more than 3g at current exchange prices. That is absolutely absurd.
That is a completely valid point. Consider the average reset is 3.50 + another 4 for transporting. That means we pay 30 times for the same service with the added value of convenience. Sorry but convenience like that doesn’t have that much value for anyone.
What I would pay for is a permanent ability (not an item that takes up my inventory space) that allows respec anywhere for 3.50 … Anet, you got greedy on this one.
Problems:
Warriors can deal Heavy damage while maintaining good survivability due to their high HP pools, passive regen and all around Logan butt thuckery.
Guardians can deal Heavy damage while our survivability falls dramatically the more we focus on dealing damage.
Warriors will always deal great damage and I go no problems with them having some sustain but being able to sustain better than the Guardian which is supposed to really be the ‘sustain king’ is questionable.
Guardians are well balanced and the main problem is that we don’t really have a ‘Meta’ unless you want to go on about the Healaway guard which couldn’t kill a disabled fly.
It’s not really clear what you are saying is a problem. I don’t see how what a warrior does makes what a Guardian does a problem. If you like what a warrior does, you should play it. Then your problems are solved.
I don’t even agree we don’t have a Meta … we most definitely do. I think the problem for me is that even with the variety the profession presents, it’s very limited by the Meta. I’m not even convinced that’s a Guardian problem. I think that’s a game development direction problem.
What I’m hoping to impress upon people is that their angst is misguided, directing them to suggest ineffective solutions.