@Obtena
If people that tops outs 86~95% critical chance everytime they run a dungeon aren’t running 30 in valor for damage, i am pretty sure that it is a bad idea for the average forum goer. :/
Yeah I agree. My point was that it’s dependent on your precision. If you are in that range of crit chance, a 30% crit damage increase can be a significant increase in damage.
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I think a lot of blokes like the 30 points for the 30 crit damage. Can someone explain why that is bad.
It’s a multiplier on a multiplier. In the range of currently attainable precision, crit damage gives the worst return on investment into damage.
See chart on this page: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_hit
Whether that is a bad investment or not is debatable. It really depends on your precision.
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Dynamic … meaning that the formulas we know and love for damage change somehow. I don’t think they do but … for me this would be the only reason to test damage output in a ‘live’ situation.
I’m just looking for people’s opinions about what the best possible setup is to farm trash in Orr. I’ve got a few things going for this but I want to know if I can do better. So far my best setup is Thief 30/30/10 with Dagger/Pistol running Shadow’s Signet, Assassin’s Signet and Blinding Powder.
It’s pretty good because I get to the mobs fast, I kill them fast and they do very little if no damage to me. Now I’m seeing if 1) I can do better for damage and 2) if I can do it from range. I’ve also eliminated any condition builds because it’s possible to kill faster than the duration of the higher damage conditions.
So anyone have ideas on this?
Unscathed Defender is not a trait that people should recommend because if you are good enough to use it, you already do. If don’t use it, you already know you can’t.
So you don’t feel that your defining class mechanic should be THE strongest abilities of the class? I do.
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Put it this way … I don’t play any other class at level 80 for a wide range of content except Guardian, yet I still know that virtues are underwhelming. I don’t need to play another class in all elements of the game to understand this. No one should.
When many of my skills or weapon effects are as good or better than my defining class mechanic, I feel that’s something that should be looked at.
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What if people were only able to play as guardians? Would there still be deficiency? No because everyone is on even ground.
Well, that’s the problem with that comparative approach. It’s still a deficiency because I believe that virtues as a profession mechanic are underwhelming and need to be buffed. That argument isn’t dependent on anything but the profession itself.
I firmly believe if you want to be convincing, you need to provide the best argument possible; the argument based on the least questionable assumptions. My high level problem with this comparative approach is that there is more than one conclusion that can be reached. It’s not so black and white like you think and a bunch of those conclusions result in Guardians still not any better off. While you might get a dev to acknowledge the disparity between War and Guardian healing and even that a solution is needed, it might not be the one we want.
I think the argument that Virtues are underwhelming as THE defining profession mechanic leaves no ambiguity. The only solution to that is to enhance or buff their effect.
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The warrior is balanced? That’s an interesting assessment right their. They are beyond balanced because they can choose MANY rules simultaneously and be accomplished. I don’t believe that is the intent of the non-holy trinity concept that Anet envisioned for this game. That’s why I think everyone using warrior as the baseline for balance is being delusional. That’s just a weak argument for Guardian improvements.
I agree with a lot of what has been said here, and especially the comparisons between Guard healing and Warr healing. However, the argument that VoC needs to be buffed or adjusted on these terms (and indeed many have argued that they are skeptical of doing so) ignores what I think is a fundamental problem with the class, which this discussion has skirted: its primary “novelty” mechanic is completely lacking.
It hasn’t been skirted, it’s just that people believe they are making a more convincing argument with Warrior comparisons and threads containing numbers with huge volumes of insignificant digits.
I happen to believe what you are mentioning here … on it’s own Virtues are not a compelling Profession mechanic. Though I agree with that argument, I think that merging or synergies with Signets is too limiting for a mechanic that should be effective out of the box and independent of other skills. Signets could be improved with more effects or even better served with strength enhancements based on other stats. Whatever it is, it shouldn’t have anything to do with what OP’ed Warrior class can do. Comparing yourself to something OPed in one professions to justify improvements to another profession is just ridiculous.
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It’s a real stretch to call the current understanding ‘abstract hypothesis’. The fact is that damage outputs have been tested and confirmed. The only difference is that the OP suggests taking these tests out of a sterile controlled environment into ‘real’ playing. The only difference your going to find is the impact that real playing effects have on damage, which are also well understood.
My only concern would be if the damage model was dynamic. Nothing I have seen or read makes me think that is the case. That’s the only thing I’m interested in seeing from these tests.
The big thing I don’t get is getting legendaries are supposed to be “end game” material…. So why to get end game material do I need to make another character level them up to 21-30 and then park them at a JP when they are clearly not in “end game” mode. All other mats for legendaries can be obtained reliably by the level 80 characters that are farming for them…. So why should juggernaut be any different?
Edit: It’s not so much that I think they are too rare but the steps you have to take say if you have nothing but 80s just to get these without paying ridiculous market prices is absurd.
This is a COMPLETELY valid point and should be addressed by the most logical method …. add in the missing recipe to craft Silver Doubloons. It’s simple, logical and would end this debate entirely.
NOW for the moaning that people will make when the price drops down to the other Doubloon levels…..
EDIT: If they add in this recipe, will Copper Doubloons price skyrocket? Hmmmm….
This point isn’t valid at all … you don’t NEED a level 21-30 character to get silver doubloons.
If i’m not using ground targeting stuff, I use the number pad with the right hand. There’s a whole bunch of extra keys you can map.
Obtena… there are ways of doing it to where it isn’t free… but profitable.
What I meant by free was that it doesn’t cost you anything to do it. I definitely it should be something you have to invest in to get. Whether that is your time, or your money or your drops. It’s good you have found a way to profit and get MF but there is still some kind of investment there. I was wondering if it was possible to get MF and make a money on it myself since I’m a massive farming type.
Personally, I don’t think of MF as something I need to profit on. This isn’t a job for me, it’s a game so spending or losing in-game gold is meaningless to me. I like seeing my bags full, or seeing how fast I can click down a stack of 250 essence.
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Only if those mats are obtainable by endgame players. Those are not.
OK read what you wrote … You are saying Silver Doubloons are not obtainable by endgame players … I could write alot of stuff about how that doesn’t make sense so I will limit to one thing. Doubloons are COMPLETELY obtainable by players that aren’t in their level range … and there’s 3 methods to do it too.
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I see that people don’t seem to understand that the time to fix a bug includes the time to understand what causes it. Just sayin’
If they are so much easier to obtain then why is it that silver doubloons are more expensive than all but one type of lodestone?
There could be lots of reasons. Easy to obtain doesn’t mean they are available in abundance. Maybe it’s exactly for the reason you point out … they don’t just fall in your lap doing content. Even though it’s easy, you still have to do something exceptional to get them and people might be lazy or just not know how to do it.
You just mentioned the ways … Buy, convert in MF and as we know, the chests. How many more are needed? 2 of those 3 methods are accessible by ANYONE at ANY level.
Lodestones are completely RNG dependent as well and you DON’T require an endgame character to get those either … So far your points are not making doubloons sound worse than getting lodestones. In fact, it’s proving equal.
The main difference is that you can get lodestones to drop by doing (the proper) endgame content. In otherwords, Silver doubloons don’t favour people that don’t want to make the effort to get them.
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There isn’t any intrinsically wrong with different tiers of mats being in demand by endgame players. In fact, it’s a GOOD thing because it diversifies and spreads opportunities to capitalize.
Condition thieves are irrelevant in competitive duels because we lacked variety evry succesful condition build has burning input into it.
That argument is a fallacy … Guardian condition build has burning too. Successful isn’t the word I would use to describe it.
parking at the JP isn’t the only way to get silver doubloons though…
I’m not sure if this will happen at some point but in other MMO’s i’ve been involved with, there was an organization of players (or sometimes just one player) that represented the profession from the player’s perspective. They had a more direct communication line between the Devs and themselves than the average player did. It was a good approach and helped push certain things along. This would be one of them.
It’s more effective than having people post in threads they don’t understand how to use . For example, the PLAYER COLLABORATION THREAD is for ideas and less so for discussion and arguing and talking about warriors.
Just to swing the vote. I’m still onboard with the defensive team support idea of the Guardian Profession but either 1) those defensive things need to have a greater impact in PVE or 2) they need to have better side-effects for offensively-oriented PVE content.
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I don’t farm lodestones in the slightest, i don’t expend any special effort to get them. All those drops are completely coincidental as a sideeffect of other things i do. To get silver doubloons however, i do need to expend special effort. And yet I get way more lodestones than silver doubloons.
So, what is easier again?
And you are still making a nonsensical comparison. Getting silver doubloons is obviously a concentrated effort with a specific goal, simply ‘playing’ the game and get lodestones coincidentally is not. Now, if you compare hours of killing mobs for lodestones (which IS a concentrated effort) to the concentrated effort needed to loot a chest at level 20 like I did, you will have a more comparable situation and very quickly come to the conclusion that indeed, doubloons are easier to get.
I mean, are you trying to say that just ‘playing endgame’ is easier than leveling a character to 20, completing one of the easiest JP’s and logging in to loot a chest? You have a hard sell there.
All I can add to this topic is to say, I have 2 level 21/22 chars parked at the pirate jp in Lion’s arch, collecting silver doubloons that I promptly sell to make money to buy my charged loadstones, because I have a total of 2. And I do dungeons, I do fractals, I do temple events but I don’t have time to do them every day. But I can open a chest every day, so for someone like me who doesn’t play for hours and hours everyday, silver doubloons are way easier (and faster) to come by.
BINGO. This isn’t a hard concept … at least some people get it.
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II will point out my theses once again:
1) Is it working? Yes it is.
2) How strong its impact is. From zero – to low effect.
3) Should we increase it for free? Yes. (when resources from salvaging worth it for example)
4) Should we sacrifice money to raise MF level? No.What i don’t understand exactly?
- - If you do an objective test, you will see it’s impact. It’s strong or not? That doesn’t mean anything. Quantitative results are important here. When I have to empty my bags more often for a farming run, then I know MF works and it has a noticeable impact to me. Expecting to see MF impact on a dungeon run where you kill a few dozen mobs is statistically insignificant.
- - Raise for free? I don’t agree with that. It’s obviously not intended to be free because you have to get and consume luck to raise MF. Making it free is just a nonsensical concept.
- - You are not doing MF right if you are sacrificing money to raise MF. It’s an investment and if you invest correctly and know when to stop, you won’t loose money.
Sometimes things in MMO’s require thinking. Obtaining MF and getting the most from having MF is one of those things.
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Yes, I get that people want their Legendary yesterday but being ignorant and posting QQ threads about Silver doubloons when they are relatively EASY to get compared to other materials for legendaries is just …
I mean, perspective people, get some … it will take you months to get your lodestones too and it’s much more work to do it. … that’s STILL much more work than camping a chest … CMON! The thing is, the price of Doubloons just goes to show you can’t help people that don’t think for themselves.
At this price, it makes alot of sense to level a character (or more) to camp LA chests. Heck, it was worth it when they were only 50s. Yet we see a new thread every week about this. It’s a little ridiculous. Don’t worry though, you can count on me to add 1 to the market every few days.
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I don’t need commentators for my posts. Speak for yourself, thanks.
Hey, it’s an open forum. If you don’t want people to discuss your thinking and why it might be wrong or right, don’t post. I’m up for open debate and awareness. Clearly you aren’t aware yet you speak with authority, even when people point out some major deficiencies in your approach. If you think getting MF is a money losing endevour or that MF doesn’t work, even with 300%, it is because you aren’t doing something right or lacking in your analysis.
Yes, logging in, checking chest and logging out takes only 5 minutes, but it’s still one chance per 24 hours. You don’t account for it at all.
It doesn’t take 5 minutes to do that, it takes 30 seconds AT MOST. You can invest playtime to get lodestones or opening chests for doubloons. If you take an hour to farm one lodestone, at worst I can get 120 opportunities to get a silver doubloon from a chest in that same hour of invested playtime. It’s not relevant if that’s 30 seconds for 240 days for a single character or 1 hour straight for my 120 characters. Time invested is the relevant measure … and the idea that if you can invest the time at all? ANYONE can most definitely find the time to log for 30 seconds to loot a chest so, please get real here. In fact .. you can open the chests multiple times if you have more than one character in the correct range camping the chest. You can’t do that with farming lodestones.
… and yes, it’s easier to farm a chest with a level 20 than it is to actually DO events, etc.. to get a lodestone.
No matter how you want to approach this, it’s easier and a better ROI to get doubloons than lodestones in every way.
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See the problem I have is that ezd doesn’t understand that if you are smart about the loot you choose to salvage, you DON’T lose money. He’s also not taking into account the cost difference between a low level blue/green and a higher level blue/green, so really, his assessment of the lost cost due to salvaging is biased and favours his POV. It’s a very cherry picked argument (on top of the fact that he’s denying the impact that massive increases of MF has on your chance to loot)
You’re claiming it’s easier to level to 80 and gear up to farm for a lodestone per hour by killing stuff IF the temple is not in Orrian hands than it is to park a cheaply-equipped, level 20ish character at LA JP and open a chest once a day at no risk, taking about 3o seconds per attempt?
I never said about temple farming, did i? And yet i have more lodestone drops per week on average than silver doubloon drops (while having a level 21 char parked in an appropriate jp). Champ bags, fractals, some dungeons, temple event chests, upgrading from cores…
Availability of silver doubloons doesn’t come even close.
You still not relevant comparisons here. Champ bags, fractals, some dungeons, temple event chests, upgrading from cores… all that requires you to do the ‘harder than parking a level 20 naked toon at a LA JP’ stuff. Whatever method you want to discuss, it’s simply not debatable. The investment is clearly lower to get silver doubloons than it is to do ANY of the ways you listed for lodestones. When you make a comparison of quantitiesobtained for a given playtime, there is no doubt doubloons is better.
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I think the bottom line here is that it’s no harder to get Silver Doubloons as it is Lodestones. In fact, I think it’s easier. Camping chests isn’t the only way to get them.
But it is harder. Getting lodestones is easier and requires no special twinking (like having a character you keep in lower level bracket especially for that).
Ok so let’s be clear …
You’re claiming it’s easier to level to 80 and gear up to farm for a lodestone per hour by killing stuff IF the temple is not in Orrian hands than it is to park a cheaply-equipped, level 20ish character at LA JP and open a chest once a day at no risk, taking about 3o seconds per attempt?
You’re going to have to explain the ‘easier’ part a little more indepth. I guarantee that counting log in, open the chest and log out (let’s say 30 seconds), I’m going to have at least 120 tries to get a silver doubloon for:
1. Less leveling effort
2. Less equipping effort
3. Less risk
4. Guaranteed opportunity to loot the chest
for the same amount of average time it takes to get a lodestone. I think I’ve got the better end of the deal.
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That makes sense considering there is transmogrify of Gold to platinum as a Jeweler. It’s still not guarantee … copper isn’t easy to get either but at least it’s yet another way to get Silvers.
More than I will NOT make having 0% MF once i reach the amortization of my investment.
How do you know where is this point?
You don’t, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Because my assessment is purely ‘empirical’, I’m going to stop my higher value blue green conversion once I get around 80-90% MF. Why? because that’s near a level that I notice a difference (did some testing with the Birthday MF consumable that gave 24h or 100% MF). That’s good enough for me. Anything that isn’t level 80 blue/green will continue to be salvaged for luck until I can’t be bothered anymore.
As i mentioned before – i don’t see this point B in near future, since i don’t see significant increase even with 300%.
That just get’s back to what Vol said. Maybe you take this as insulting but there is a ‘wrong’ way to get your MF and it’s fair to discuss it because it really does make your MF evident if you do it right.
For instance, are you killing AS MANY mobs as you can when you get MF buffs? You should be. Are you running dungeons when you get MF buffs? I can guarantee dungeons is the worst place for MF to be evident because you hardly kill anything (and MF affect on chests/bags, is very questionable).
Are you converting your level 80 blue/greens? That’s the MOST costly way to get MF conversion ROI. Why not get lower level mats camping chests and convert with a low QL salvage thing? … make your own from mats you have laying around …. I mean, if anything, MF is so easy to get and you can get it from just playing the game … heck, your daily gives you some.
I just find it really hard to argue there is something out of wack with the system because of things like the ‘cost’ to convert blue/greens when can be made an almost no-cost activity. I don’t think an objective assessment would lead you to the conclusion that you don’t see the effect of 300% MF.
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‘Good’ damage is pretty relative. I don’t really get why I’m reading you can’t get ‘good’ damage with AH … there is still 40 points left to get at least 2 high Multipliers, power and high crits if I like for 1H weapons … let’s be objective here. The OP isn’t asking for the BEST DPS build. He’s asking for good DPS with AH. You can do it if you aren’t jaded by the highest full hit and crit Whirling Wrath numbers.
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I’m interested but I’m not sure what the motivation is to do the field test. I think our understanding of how damage is dealt and the times/durations are understood well enough to not need a field test to verify that understanding. Is there something that the originators feel is missing from that knowledge or is this a purely academic exercise to see if it can be done?
While I don’t want to discourage people’s endeavors to experiment, I don’t understand the motivation to have a single build cover two completely different aspects of gameplay.
It’s simply too cheap and more effective to swap your builds depending on what you wish to do.
I don’t feel there is a good compromise between WvW and PVE build. I would say the best compromise you can get is take 0/15/30/20/5, a mix of knights leaning towards zerker (for more PVE focus) or Soldiers ( for more WvW focus) trinkets. Swapping skills fitting to the situation (Shouts if you AH, swapping to WoR for dungeons. etc… )
Of course, as a minimum set of weapons: Hammer, Staff, GS, Scepter and Focus
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More than I will NOT make having 0% MF once i reach the amortization of my investment.
What you are asking for is something no one but Anet can provide you. No player can control the environment well enough to determine the parameters needed to determine the number of kills to reach the Loot/MF conversion amortization. Furthermore, Luck to MF isn’t even a linear scale. What a clever bunch of Devs Anet has.
I don’t believe you need any technical assessment to know MF does work … anyone that got the Southsun buff vs. NOT got it during the Southsun events can attest to that. What I find rather disturbing about this thread is that people would rather believe some far out idea that implies Anet goes out of their way to screw people over than actually have faith that Anet has a LOGICAL approach to making sure that MF is applied equally to everyone and whatever it is, it works.
Frankly, I will admit that at some point, I will stop my conversion of loot to MF. There will be a point for a given player where more conversion will not benefit them. Ultimately it comes down to the ratio of gear you convert for MF to the gear you sell. I can’t guess you a number there but if you farm ALOT (like I do in Orr), you have a pretty good feeling for the amount of loot you get in a single run through and how much MF you get by converting it. Once your MF rate of increase is not ‘sustainable’, it’s time for you to stop conversion. On the other hand, MF is so easy to attain in the lower range, it’s ridiculous to consider not doing it. That might seem all a bit handwavy but unless Anet releases some drop rates, etc… that’s what we have to work with.
Bottom line is this: If your a conspiracy theory kind of guy, you still don’t have a reason to not increase your MF, even in the lowest ranges by using loot to luck conversion. It’s up to you to decide to stop when you feel like you are losing money because of it.
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See whole idea? We lose money on blue and green items. 70c on blue, 1.2s on green.
Am i wrong? Where?
At the point where someones ROI for converting Greens/Blues into MF pays off due to increased loot drops. I think if you aren’t regarding this as an investment, you simply don’t get how it will benefit you IN THE LONG TERM. I think what you haven’t taken account of is the amortization of your Green/Blue to MF conversion … There is obviously a number of mobs that needs to be killed to get your investment back and after than, it’s pure benefit.The question is:
1. Can you quantify that?
2. If you can, what is the amortization?
I think the answer to #1 is yes. Don’t take this as an accusation but when people say they don’t notice loot differences with 200%+ MF, they just aren’t using the same baseline for when they don’t have 200%+ MF. There is a noticeable difference when you are talking factors here.
I won’t pretend to try to answer #2, simply because I don’t know how MF affects the various rates for the different QL level of drops … it’s folly to attempt to do so. It does depend on the content you are doing and how many kills you make in a day.
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I think the bottom line here is that it’s no harder to get Silver Doubloons as it is Lodestones. In fact, I think it’s easier. Camping chests isn’t the only way to get them.
I don’t agree with that mindset (oh just park a low level at a JP) but i do agree it requires time and effort. For people who don’t have the time to play daily and make money, they should not have to rely on parking one of their characters at a jumping puzzle.
I do not disagree that the recipes for the legendaries would be different amounts but the methods of acquiring the silver doubloons that are currently in place are not effective… especially with the price increase.
The JP chest is just ONE way. There are others. Many other threads on the topic describe other ways to obtain them. The effectiveness of acquiring them isn’t related to the price increase. I would say the methods to get them are very effective if you are willing to compare other rare mats for other legendaries … farming sparks for Charged cores, for example.
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I think the points Vol makes is reasonable. The statistics on drops are related to the number of mobs you kill, their hardness, etc… you can’t deny that the game is simply the execution of a bunch of rules that are based on math.
I can appreciate the inquiry in MF; I had the same questions myself. I don’t think it’s anyone’s ‘job’ to prove MF works or doesn’t work, or doesn’t work the way people think it should. You convince yourself based on whatever and if you do, you act accordingly. Vol has presented some of his efforts. Take it for what it’s worth. That’s all anyone can do.
I don’t see merit in theories that claim some accounts are favoured for luck just because some people get better drops than others. Sounds like how people persecuted witches in the 17th century.
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It couldn’t be that the system itself is out of wack, right? Because the way it looks from my perspective, is that certain individuals seem to receive all of the good loot and others get pretty much none.
I think that what is being expressed is that your perspective isn’t indicative of a ‘system’ that is out of wack. Your perspective is biased; it’s not evidence, it’s the result of convincing yourself something is not working properly. Unless there is some subjective testing to see if MF has an impact, I see no reason anyone to believe crackpot theories about luck favouring random accounts. Drops aren’t based on ‘luck’, it’s based on fixed probability.
^^ Thanks.
15 char
I think the missing signature is a reasonable sanction. Demostrates Anet’s interest in developing the community for ALL players, regardless of their views on playing. I think the missing signature is a nice indicator for players .. it’s a testament to how Anet regards the value players bring as well as HOW they bring it. Being helpful isn’t also a license to being rude or bullying players into a populist movement. The people that have been sanctioned aren’t the only source of this information.
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All this warrior comparisons come down to following what’s the new flavour of the month. Guardian has been a consistent level of ‘good’ since the game started. Warrior has been on a coaster ride of sorts. People going to be really sad when they get over that first drop. It happens all the time, I don’t expect it to be different in GW2.
^^ I’m not a troll engi … I see nothing but nice buffs in this patch (PoV isn’t a nerf, it’s a BUG that got fixed). I live under the same bridge as other Guardians. Where should I go?
You should really consider having a build for a specific purpose (sPVP, WvW or PVE). Those different elements of the game have very different needs.
As for your preferred weapons, I don’t think GS pairs well with mace/Sheild. Typically, your traits will favour one and not the other because GS is very mobile and high damage, Mace is stationary, heal builds. I think it would be hard to use both well in a single build.
I think these ranking go down a road we shouldn’t go. There isn’t a point labeling anyone, even yourself.
YAR! Totally sucks, even BEFORE I tried it. Sounds like my 5 year old son at the dinner table.
I don’t get the problem. I read every one of those things and think to myself “All improvements”. Did I miss a memo? You people have to stop comparing yourself to other professions. If you like warrior, go play it (gratz for those that did instead of constantly QQing in this forum)
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I always questioned condition removal for PVE. I don’t play any other class in PVE dungeons but … aren’t other classes capable to remove their own conditions? Why do certain aspects of PVE falling on the shoulders of Guardians? Though I recognize the utility in Valour and Honour, I don’t like traiting in them past 20. Most of the GM traits are just way too situational there, AH included. Most of the utility you need for a team is in skills and those can be changed on the fly (and enhanced for cheap traits) if you really know your encounters.
I think you will find that as you develop and improve your playstyle and play with others who have also, AH gets less effective. I don’t think AH itself is a bad trait but it does require your teammates to accommodate you for maximum effectiveness. I think it’s a bit much to ask in a dungeon encounter … unless there is another Guardian in your team playing an AH build as well.
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