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Really? You can’t imagine how that paragraph relates to support? Astounding. That’s OK … I can imagine how that paragraph DOESN’T relate to DPS.
It seems like it. Forget about condition removal, how about this?
Signet of Vengeance: Condition Damage triggers Retaliation.
What is your ideas?
As for the perception issue of the class Obtena, GW2 clearly laid out that they will not pigeon hole people into specific roles (no holy trinity)…
There is still a Trinity: Dmg, CC, Support.
They don’t want holy trinity as you see in traditional games is what I recall they said.. That doesn’t mean they won’t have concepts they are going to follow for the professions, including a concept that leads to Guardian providing significant support to the team. This makes sense and I doubt it could be more clear to the playerbase.
The only thing I see fault with here is the weak approach to supporting team in the face of the condition heavy meta, though they did caution that they didn’t reveal all to us.
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The Key to that quote: SUPPORT.
We are already 1 of the best support classes in the game: Ele is probably the second.
We don’t need ~more~ support.
Well, that’s a perception issue … players have to recognize the concept of the class. Fundamentally, it’s support and the devs are going to push that as long as they think that’s what they want the class to do. It’s a natural progression.
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Btw, how much damage do I theoretically lose when I drop some precision?
I would estimate ‘some’. :p
I think the condition removal aspect is useful … it does offer the player the choice to use a single skill to gain dual or simultaneous function. Remember, all of this can be changed on the fly because we are talking about skills and traits. Nothing is wasted here, unless your whole argument is that Valour is trash for PVE. Then we will have to agree to disagree.
@ NoTrigger
I think it would be better to do Smite Condition. It’s not unreasonable to spam this to get fury every 16 seconds with a I/X. The trade off will depend on fury duration.
because 10 zeal and 25 radiance is key. at least for pve dps builds.
so you have 35 points left.
25 go into virtues/honor.
now you have 10 left.Traits are just a means to an end. You can make a very high PVE DPS build with a number of combinations of traits.
ofc but i wouldnt give up like 30% overall bonus dmg just for a bit of fury.
I’m not whipping out the excel here but … I think your problem is that you don’t see anything tasty here if you are maximum DPS PVE builder. I think that’s OK because the builds that make the maximum DPS PVE builds don’t need alot of flavours anyways.
While I wouldn’t call enhancing the Valour line a priority, this kind of thing is exciting because it appeals to people using med builds. Different ways to squeeze our more damage while maintaining our other capabilities is a WIN WIN.
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because 10 zeal and 25 radiance is key. at least for pve dps builds.
so you have 35 points left.
25 go into virtues/honor.
now you have 10 left.
Traits are just a means to an end. You can make a very high PVE DPS build with a number of combinations of traits. Depending on the duration of Fury, someone could do the same with Valour 30 now.
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It won’t matter at all? It will matter alot … Anet is telling us we get significant crit damage AND crit rate from ONE line, along with a passive defense. I’m killing two birds with one stone here if I’m a DPS build in PVE … three if I’m doing PVP, especially if someone want to use 2H weapons. This is massive IMO.
yea and you will lose unscathed contender + elusive power/power of the virtuoes
if you put 30 points into valor……..
and running 3 meditations for a bit fury is stupid.
1. You aren’t losing ALL of those things.
2. You don’t need to run 3 meditations to benefit from this.
My only concern right now is how many seconds of fury we will get.
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It won’t matter at all? It will matter alot … Anet is telling us we get significant crit damage AND crit rate from ONE line, along with a passive defense. I’m killing two birds with one stone here if I’m a DPS build in PVE … three if I’m doing PVP, especially if someone want to use 2H weapons. This is massive IMO.
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Frankly, I’m hot and cold with this one ….
1. Monk’s Focus (or the Valor line in general) did NOT need enhancement while other lines languish in mediocrity.
2. The enhancement itself is super tasty and for one of the builds I use, this will provide a significant opportunity for swapping traits around for optimization.
Fix to Purging Flame? MEH, That’s OK I guess. At least the change makes sense.
Big question is what they will replace Focused Mind with …
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Mace already have 2/3 of those things so ?
I knew I forgot to set my clock. Thanks for making another Legendary-related QQ thread.
What do you think people are doing with all those exotics they are crafting for level 500? Not everyone is going salvage them.
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It sucks but there are two bits of wisdom:
1. I will change again. These things always do
2. Make it interesting for yourself. Can’t you think of a build that, while not optimal for the class, will be aligned to that meta?
Been there, done that in about 3 other MMO;s. This one is no different.
Considering how short the duration is of evading and blocking (isn’t blocking instant?), I don’t think this would be a very effective condition.
It’s not hard to imagine how EASY it could be to propose ways for chef or jeweler to progress to 500. Most of the stat combos for ascended trinkets don’t even exist and there are infinite possibilities for stat/effect combos from food at the 500 level. Sorry, the sky isn’t falling.
I don’t get why everything a game dev does needs to make sense to the average player. Nothing limits them to what they do other than their own imagination. They aren’t governed by physical laws.
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^^ Truths …
Players need to determine their breaking points DPS/defense for themselves. Some can jump right into DPS, some never get there. I have a balanced defense/DPS build and an all out DPS build and I just swap gear as I see fit. I swap Weapons as well (What Guardian doesn’t?). I would recommend that if you do the two builds approach, you can reduce your space and price by getting ascended zerker trinkets and keep that consistent between either.
There are tradeoffs between either approach you outline. I don’t think either is better.
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1. Enhancement of spirit weapons to make up for Guardian weaknesses (to give them a reason to be used at all)
2. Rework of torch so it doesn’t simply duplicate intrinsic Guardian capabilities
3. Zeal (at least 30) goodness
4. Rework of traits and stats in Virtue line to give parity between active and passive Virtue use
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Your entire assumption that the group does not care that you are bad, just because it is a pug, is extremely flawed logic.
Not sure that’s what I said (or meant if that’s how it reads). Still, my view on PUGs is a more pragmatic approach than an academic one.
1. PUGs are random people with no experience playing with each other or perhaps even the content. This results in more variation in performance than an engineered team who plays together.
2. There isn’t one single definition of what everyone considers as the transition point from a good to a bad player either. I don’t even think such a thing exists … if it does, ‘wearing zerker gear’ wouldn’t be enough to define it.
That’s for me where DPS-only PVE argument breaks down. There is no concensus on the border between bad and good (there isn’t one, it’s simply a spectrum) and there is a difference in philosophies to playing; no single one dominates because a group of players place specific significance on certain results it gets you.
No one is trying to tell you how to play, but it wouldn’t hurt to show some common courtesy and make your presence be a positive addition to the group that you volunteered to join. You don’t have to run the best build..there is plenty of room for compromise…just be reasonably effective.
People are reasonably effective NOT running DPS builds in many situations; some are MORE effective if they aren’t running DPS builds. Therefore, they are doing everything you are asking them to do here.
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They care, maybe, maybe not. I find people in PUGS don’t tend to care, otherwise they would run with a more organized and dedicated group for PVE. It’s actually quite easy to do that, so bottom line … if you care enough about all this DPS-only, time saving, optimized dungeon runs, you don’t run PUG’s to remove the risk of teaming with people you despise. Again, if you are a DPS-only PVE guy, it’s YOUR fault if you get your time wasted by teaming non-DPS people. Just don’t do it.
Even if they did care, the difference is that they can’t have high expectations for PUG team performance from random players. I’m just happy to complete in some cases. If that means someone needs to run something that’s not DPS, then I would rather they do that then risk some Rambo style with a bunch of unknown team capabilities to save me a couple minutes.
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He’s not dictating anything VERBALLY. He’s dictating the pace of the entire run. That doesn’t take words. Time wasted is just that, wasted. You are NEVER getting that time back EVER.
If the team doesn’t care, what’s the problem? If you care, build your teams better. Furthermore, if you care that much about your time (I mean, THAT much), then WTF are you doing playing an MMO? I can’t THINK of a bigger waste of time. That ‘wasted time’ argument is just a big laugh. I waste more time zoning, respecing and waiting for teams than the difference in time between DPS and non builds.
Players that team with people who are running the builds they want aren’t overly concerned by anything you said, so I doubt that the advantages of DPS builds impact their decision on how they play the game.
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It’s just having the basic consideration to actually help out in dungeons rather than just sitting there in the back doing nothing expecting everyone to do the work for you. Or are you going to defend the guy who just joins and afks at the entrance so he can get the dungeon reward, too?
The only time you do nothing and everyone works for you is if you are AFK. No one advocates that kind of behaviour when teaming. Furthermore, it’s very dishonest suggesting that people who aren’t in a DPS build fall in with that kind of player mentality.
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The mentality of a group doesn’t make your build any less selfish.
It doesn’t actually matter what label you want to call a build if the team doesn’t care about someone’s build. Again, PVE isn’t a competitive element of the game unless you decide to make it that way. If that’s what you do, great. But your not going to convince people that don’t see PVE as competitive and make them realize that they HAVE to use a DPS build as the final conclusion.
It’s no more selfish to run a build your comfortable with than it is to tell people they have to run a DPS build. Again, the point you seem to miss is that you make the team based on your values, you don’t randomly create a team, then enforce your values on them.
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You dont have to but its pretty selfish to slow the group down because of your awful build.
Depends on the mentality of the group… again, there are some portion of people out there who honestly don’t care if they take some extra minutes to finish non-competitive PVE content. In those cases, player knowledge of the content far exceeds any build they are using. If your building a high-performance PVE group, you are going to filter those people out anyways.
Think about it … you’re trying to appeal to a group that doesn’t care about shaving seconds from a dungeon run with arguments about saving time. Your trying to appeal to a group of people who are self-centered and self-sufficient enough to run DPS builds in team PVE content about the merits of being a better teammate. I just don’t get what kind of convincing argument you have for either of those things.
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You do realise we only inform people dps is the way to go because the chances are atleast a few people will listen and then the proportion of properly
Stopped reading there. What is proper to you is not necessary to play the game, have fun, complete PVE content, etc… Again, what you consider the ‘proper’ way to play is a matter of your opinion. You don’t seem to be the kind of person open-minded enough to realize there are many ways to play the game and not any of them is the most correct.
I’m not debating if DPS is the best for PVE. I agree that it’s how the game leans you in that ultimate direction. I’m just disagreeing that it’s what you have to do because of some preconceived player-instituted notion it’s the correct way to play.
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I missed the part where the PVT guy is complaining about DPS teammates … he’s not dictating anything. He doesn’t care what gear his teammates use. He doesn’t care if it takes a minute longer to finish a dungeon. He’s not going to shame you for the build your using. He’s not going to jump on people if they make a mistake. He’s just there to play the game because unlike you, he’s not putting arbitrary goals on non-competitive PVE content. You don’t get it. If you did, you would see why the DPS-only approach isn’t appropriate for everyone.
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The only merits of non dps builds are to either hold the hands of sub par players or to compensate for self sub par play.
Yes, and there are alot of players don’t play at that level needed for the DPS builds. Those players still need to exercise some level of competence when teaming. Ergo, non-dps builds have merit for them. It’s not a hard concept.
If the idea that non-optimized DPS players doing non-competitive content is so offensive to DPS people, then DPS people have the option to organize their own teams with each other. Forcing this “DPS-only for PVE” philosophy on players isn’t going to have much of an impact when it goes against the VALUE those players place on the ability to choose how they want to play, even if you think it’s bad.
For example, do you think the guy that wants a PVE/WvW build cares if a single build won’t be optimized for either? You simply don’t understand or respect how other people want to play the game. You guys might have a point if you paid the initial cost of the game and compensated people for their time to play. Only then can you tell them what and how to do it. Until then, you have no authority to dictate that people SHOULD be doing something in game, especially for those of you appealing to the sense of shame by insults and downplay of people’s capability.
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WvW/sPvP .. the point is the same. No reason to ‘fix’ a broader guardian issue with a specific weapon fix, especially one that already comes with 2 CC tools on it.
The damage is OK? I have to ask, what kind of build are you using GS with … Damage is more than OK. IIRC, it’s top Guardian damage, if not top 3. I don’t find comparisons to other professions relevant or compelling. Guardian is actually a very high damage profession. There really isn’t anything that the GS needs to make it’s damage better.
If your point is that we need compensation for some nerf along the way, GS isn’t the appropriate place to do it.
I don’t see a need to address WvW issues through GS buffs. In fact, I think that’s a bad approach because your just restricting people’s choices as they recognize things they place high value on.
In otherwords, if you make GS THE good WvW weapon, it’s what people are going to use, with exclusivity. In fact, GS has two gap closing tools. It certainly doesn’t need more.
As the weapon that fills the ‘damage’ role for Guardians, GS itself is very good. What is questionable is going 21+ in Zeal. Traits/Virtues/skills are a more appropriate place to address broader Guardian problems.
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I would argue it’s not a grind because you don’t need to do it to get the stuff they drop.
The Brazil build didn’t feel right to me. I think there are better ways to achieve high DPS while feeling like a Guardian. I just don’t understand the idea of a DPS build with 30 in honour when there are lines that share better damage/Guardian stuff synergies AND give stats appropriate to damage. If you have 30 in honour, your pushing Hybrid build territory.
I think the traiting Guang lists are more appropriate.
WvW builds are pretty focused for specific activities in WvW (See stickied Jax Thread) and even particular stances (defensive vs. offensive). It’s not easy to marry the two together. I can assure you that full DPS wouldn’t be appropriate in WvW and I also think that something like Healway would be much too busy and defensive for PVE.
I see lots of suggestions already near the beginning. If those don’t float your boat, Do the traditional thing with 0/15/30/20/5. Mix of Knights/PVT armor, zerker trinkets. Test it and find your personal flavour.
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Oh look, you didn’t last a page not talking to me. So sad for me.
As we know, there isn’t a ‘best’ for both. In that case, it’s reasonable to suggest a hybrid, where your DPS zerker builds are still not relevant.
On another note, I’m more qualified to talk about it than you are … my burning builds are STILL more relevant to a WvW/PVE combined environment than any zerker DPS build your going to push on people.
Actually, he asked for the best PVE-WvW build. That’s not a zerker-centric build. Looks like the ‘good’ players should pay a little more attention.
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^^ Your kidding right? It’s about 4-5 hours of content to get the guild coms for a ring, a BiS piece of gear. It’s not relevant if it’s spread over 2 weeks or not, because your not actively doing stuff in that whole two weeks to get it … Seriously, 4 or 5 hours. That doesn’t even come close to what I would consider grinding. I guess you are new to MMO’s? I’ve played games where it takes HUNDREDS of hours to get an item or even get a level. THAT is grinding
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The point isn’t if it’s ‘easy’ (It’s even EASIER to filter TP for exotic trinkets and buy them), the point is if people see an opportunity to provide to the market. I think it’s ridiculous to believe people won’t take jeweler because they THINK people will skip exotics/rares and go right to ascended trinkets from greens.
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I guess congratulations is in order? or your statement is helping me demonstrate how futile it is to persuade everyone to go full zerkers DPS in PVE based on how poorly everyone plays?
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However, they really should be craftable as well, since right now, the jeweler discipline really has no purpose to level to 400 other than for Gift of Ice.
It has lots of purpose … people don’t just jump into Ascended trinkets at level 1.
No, but once you hit 80, there’s no reason to not just get the Ascended rings, skipping the craftable Exotics (and rares) entirely. Heck, it’s probably easier to get an Ascended ring than to get the mats to craft an exotic one.
That’s only relevant if you have a main character to collect guild tokens and laurels for ascended trinkets. It’s not easier to get the mats for Ascended trinkets than exotics. If your as setup to farm Ascended gear as you post indicates, then getting exotics is as simple as going to the TP. Claiming jeweler profession is obsolete is nonsense.
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It’s an example that demonstrates performance is more than gear.
If you want to run a zerk staff ele that deals 9.5k instead of 12k, I can deal with that. A 2.5k DPS loss is pretty severe in a speedclear group but if you can play properly with a staff I can accept it. Staff puts out fire fields and has good AOE so it’s not a total unilateral loss.
If on the other hand you want to run a subpar build with no redeeming merits other than to enable yourself to play lazily (assuming you are decent enough to play without the AH crutch) then you’re just purposefully being useless. And if you’re just going to be useless from the start, I might as well just run the dungeon with one less player and sell the slot at the end for some free cash.
All this is true, but only applies to whole teams, usually a pre-determined group, who are focused on competitive PVE; for example, clearing dungeons in record times. I might be on a limb here but it doesn’t sound like the OP is at that stage. I mean, selling team slots for cash? Is that even a real thing? Sounds like the way you are playing the game is exceptional.
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So you think that a properly geared and specced DPS player does 4x the damage of the typical PUG player? No way.
0/0/30/30/10 staff guardian in cleric’s deals about base 420 damage/second.
Really? That’s one sleepy Guardian. Just burning gives 350ish. What kind of time durations are you using to determine these averages? Are you quoting bursts here?
NVM .. I see you specify base damage. Early morning lack of coffee.
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Bad player is bad player … what can I say. It’s not the build.
I would actually appreciate that. If you can’t be courteous to people and respect their approach to playing a non-competitive aspect of a game without insulting them, starting by not replying to me is a good idea. I don’t doubt a good number of other people would like to be in my position right now as well. Let’s see if you stick to your guns on this one.
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The irony is that I do better with that build than many of the Zerker noob generation you guys are promoting as ‘the best’. It’s about the player, not their gear. I get a good laugh rezzing DPS Rambo who is downed every 15 seconds while telling me I don’t know how to play.
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Sorry guys, I’m lost. Or I’m not understanding what you want to say or you aren’t understanding me. I tried to say that for a really good dps with sustain you can go FULL ZERKER (weapons, armor and trinkets) and reliable with AH/Staff when you are out of heal options (also, symbols helps to keep up).
For what I know AH (Altruistic Healing) only heals the guardian.
If you are lost, it’s because people have an axe to grind. You have been trolled in this thread by proponents of the DPS-only approach to PVE. These specific individuals look down upon anyone that has survivability issues in a DPS setup. In otherwords, you offer a nice trolling target to them because in their perspective, everyone that doesn’t heavy-DPS or does DPS and can’t survive in PVE is a leecher, a noob and is knowingly countering the efforts of their team to complete content.
Ignore that nonsense. You are your own player and you do have options.
1. You can learn the DPS approach by learning the optimized use of your intrinsic dodges and heals. To do that, you need good knowledge of the encounters and knowing how anticipate and time your defensive tool usage. Even if you can do that … if your team isn’t playing the same DPS approach to self-survivability, your going to have a hard go.
2. As strongly as people are pushing the full DPS load, it is in you and your team’s best interests to have at least another set of gear you can fall back on in case you are getting focused and downed more often than you feel is reasonable.
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Leeching is doing the least possible to get reward. That is not what non-DPS people are doing when they team. They are STILL putting focus and effort towards doing the content. If your going to be sensational and extreme, I see no point in clarifying things to you. Hopefully you will find a team of people that think like you do so you can stop harassing and insulting those that don’t.
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That’s a valid opinion and a neat story. There are ways to make up for a lack of situational awareness so that you don’t die … not being full DPS is one and relying on your team is another. Not everyone fits in the ‘pro’ player league you think they should be.
I believe there is more to playing this game with a team than dodging and doing damage because not everyone wants or can play at that level. Again, in non-competitive play, the things you value in a player don’t account for the total sum of what it means to be in a team. That’s not leeching or countering, that’s simply what happens when playing.
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