Guild Wars 2

Depends on what you call a DPS guardian …

XRay.1920:

Zerker stats are the absolute top in pve.

Sigh. Nothing like coming in on page 6, reading one post and thinking your on top of things Ay?

CptAurellian.9537:

Remember how this discussion started? Brutaly claiming that people would take Honor into DPS builds just for a “hp cushion”, which is outright bull manure.

I think his point was that people take Honor in DPS builds because they are ignorant of how to get better DPS from a different trait allocation … he just said it in a nicer way.

spoj.9672:

He said in another thread hes no pve pro, so maybe you guys should pay a little more respect to those of us who do know our dungeon stuff.

Brutaly.6257:

Personally i dont have to dodge every 15th seconds in fractals to keep aegis but that might be my playstyle but it works at level 40 at least.

… he’s got his playstyle down to to the point where he’s doing this. To me that’s meaningful and goes beyond ‘knowing dungeon stuff’. There are more examples of his expertise, far beyond the scope of this thread. More pro than you give him credit for (or himself).

Frankly, no one shows the kind of depth of Guardian knowledge this man has on this forum. The proof is simply to read some of his posts for yourself. He’s not the only one either. We are lucky to have a number of intelligent posters here who are objective and know how to back up their opinions with their experience and tests. Furthermore, the results are corroborated, so it’s not just frivolous farming of postcount on their part. Their contribution is selfless and furthers the collective knowledge of the profession.

None of this is a discredit to the occasional poster of course. Their experiences are also valuable to the player who’s level of play hasn’t ascended to these subtle considerations. Simply based on the amount I have learned from him, Foofad and a number of others, I can safely say that they have established themselves as something more than ‘a guy with an opinion’. Authority is the word I’m looking for here.

I think the point is that Brutaly DOES know his Guardian gameplay. Maybe you don’t agree with him but if you take the time to peruse his posts and are an intelligent individual, you will realize that his information is given with authority, with sound assessment and well spoken. He at least deserves a greater respect than to be insulted by Guardian forum tourists telling him he doesn’t know.

OK, enough kissing kitten. Bottom line … there are a handful of individuals here that shouldn’t be immediately dismissed when they have an opinion on something. If your going to disagree, you better have a comparable depth of knowledgeable, have some context to frame your opinion … or be extremely obtuse.

Even the smallest norm woman is pretty big. Your problem is that you don’t have a relative comparison when making her, so you don’t actually know how big she is until you stand side by side with someone else.

Aeranima.2853:

BUT AN INFUSED! I mean, 4 silver for an infused at a vendor. Do not be stupid. You know what I mean. 4 darn silvers for a infused.

Hold up … no one is stupid because they don’t have the same idea you do. I don’t see a problem with that because frankly, the occurrence of someone vending an infused item is next to zero so the impact that it’s only 4 silver is also next to zero. Just because it’s infused doesn’t mean it should have any value to a vendor.

Hanako.1827:

Obtena.7952:

Did Anet say they were broken?

Do they say anything is ever broken in their own game?!

Um, you missed the point …

Anet does say if things are going to be improved and changed. That sets an expectation. I’m asking if they have set the expectation with the things the OP is saying are broken.

OO what book is that and where do you get them?

The true test is to play it and see if you feel you lack something. It’s only balanced for you when you think you have a good mix, giving good enough offense and defense. My balanced approach has less armor and more healing power.

Did Anet say they were broken?

spoj.9672:

Obtena.7952:

Two things:

Reilem.5910:

i want something a bit tankier and supporty.

1. Guardian is the right profession for you. There are lots of tank/support builds in the builds thread.

Reilem.5910:

(if for example going zerker is more helpful for a dungeon party than going knights, then suggestions in that regard are also appreciated.)

2. The most ‘helpful’ gear/build is going to depend on who is in your team. Running zerkers with unknown noobs isn’t going to be very helpful if you have to carry them, even a bit. Zerkers will only be the most helpful if the rest of your team are highly capable of running dungeons and doing something similar.

Thats wrong. Its easier to carry a group when you have dps. If the group has low dps then the best you can do to support them is maximise your dps while providing blocks, protection, regen and reflects.

1. My opinion is not ‘wrong’.

2. I’m not getting dragged into another “The way I play is the best” arguments with “DPS is the BEST, ALWAYS” people. High damage is preferred if everyone else in your team is equally capable of running high damage builds and taking care of themselves, splitting the aggro and relying on the intrinsic tools of the class to survive until their aggro window closes. If you team is in need of carry and getting downed, your aggro window gets alot bigger. Bigger aggro durations are not friends of people avoiding defensive stats.

OP, take that for whatever you see value in it. Be aware you aren’t going to always team the most elite players. There is some real metagame considerations you need to make choosing your gear unless you significantly restrict yourself to teaming a select group of people.

Also, LAWL at people telling Brutaly he doesn’t have any idea.

I wouldn’t think it would be that big a mystery for an experienced player to see the advantages of PVT while supporting a less skilled team over Zerkers, so yeah, I call baiting.

spoj.9672:

I facepalmed. Only way I can see that being an issue is when experienced players force the others to skip trash mobs. …. There is no possible way that can take the enjoyment away from less experienced players.

Considering the attitudes I have seen in this thread, I doubt everyone who believes non-zerkers drag them down in team have as polite an attitude towards the non-zerker people they team as you seem to have. This is the ‘dragging through’ I’m referring to. Of course, there is a spectrum of attitudes on both sides and I don’t want you to think I feel every zerker-only supporter is a jerk about it either.

I do think there is a lack of respect. As much as zerker supporters feel non-zerkers don’t respect their time and effort, it’s clear that zerker supporters don’t respect non-zerkers desire to play how they wish to play.

What confuses me the most is that I don’t understand the concept to begin with. Maybe it’s driven by a lack of trinity but it seems to me that zerkers philosophy is sort of “I team, but it’s a formality because we all handle ourselves. That’s why we don’t need defensive stats”. Whatever drives it, you can’t universally apply that thinking to everyone because the fundamental idea of the team is to support each other.

The negative attitude is disheartening. You aren’t going to remove people that want to use gear not dictated by ’what’s best’ or they don’t feel comfortable using. Therefore, the reactionary response of kicking, insults, whatever, is not appropriate … a preventative one of careful team choices or organized raiding is.

So I guess your question about how PVT is better support than Zerker is just a poor attempt to bait me? Glad I gave it the appropriate response.

Seetoo.9316:

@ bold
Really?

Yeah, RLY! I can see why that’s a surprise to you but … believe it or not, people in non-zerker gear aren’t the leeching, selfish baddies you all paint them to be. They actually like playing the game.

Zerker elites rushing non-zerker baddies through content is just the flipside of the non-zerker baddies dragging down Zerker elites.

Seetoo.9316:

BTW, I would still like to know how PVT support (boons, heals, and other utilities) is superior to zerk support (boons, heals, and other utilities).

I’m sure you’re so genuinely interested. I suggest you try it yourself.

spoj.9672:

I agree with what you’ve said but you also have to consider the people you are grouping with.

That goes BOTH ways. Your not going to enjoy being held back by non-zerker people, they aren’t going to enjoy being pulled through by full zerker people. The difference is that non-zerk people aren’t telling you how to gear and play while the zerker camp seems to have no problem doing that to everyone else.

^^ Probably because there isn’t anything here worth seeing … we’ve heard it before.

Pro tip: If you would have sold those rares, bought exotics and dumped in the forge, you probably would have better chances to get precursor.

Two things:

Reilem.5910:

i want something a bit tankier and supporty.

1. Guardian is the right profession for you. There are lots of tank/support builds in the builds thread.

Reilem.5910:

(if for example going zerker is more helpful for a dungeon party than going knights, then suggestions in that regard are also appreciated.)

2. The most ‘helpful’ gear/build is going to depend on who is in your team. Running zerkers with unknown noobs isn’t going to be very helpful if you have to carry them, even a bit. Zerkers will only be the most helpful if the rest of your team are highly capable of running dungeons and doing something similar.

Seetoo.9316:

I’m saying that “IF (conditional statement, not absolute) you are good enough to NOT NEED the VT in PVT” then the only reasons you ARE wearing PVT are:
- you couldn’t be bothered to get a zerk set
- PVT is your preference

OR

… you are teaming with people you have to support better or carry more. Not everyone you pick up for team is running the zerkers (or capable of using it), therefore, you might not be able to either.

Not all players who are good are running organized groups, transitioning to that teaming model or using zerker’s gear exclusively. Not all players using PVT are being kicked from runs either. Saying something in absolute terms does not make it more true.

swiftpaw.6397:

Obtena.7952:

I’m amused at the irony of people demanding everyone run zerkers for THEIR benefit calling non-zerker geared people selfish.

Where’s the demanding? We are just arguing which set is better.

It’s a demand through the threat of kicking people from team. Anyways, I don’t see much debate about what the best gear is here. Most people here are talking about people kicking players for using non-zerker gear.

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

But that doesn’t change the fact that Berserker’s gear is simply the best option for PVE content in GW2.

Maybe, but not everyone is using the best option, so it could affect how you gear yourself depending on the content. The best choice is driven by a number of factors, including the skill and gear of OTHER people on your team, if you are doing team-based content. I’m going to gear and trait according to who I’m playing with. If I know everyone is super skilled and full zerker, I will too. If I know my team mates are new, I’m not. They are going to need all the support I can give them AND I’m going to have to carry them more. I’m going to choose the gear most likely hedge the risk. That’s not zerker gear. Like I already said, if you are limiting your team choices to highly skilled players, zerkers is a favourable choice.

Good players adapt to situation.

I’m amused at the irony of people demanding everyone run zerkers for their own personal benefit calling non-zerker geared people selfish.

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

And the best gear for every situation in PvE happens to be Berserker’s gear.

That’s a matter of opinion. The best gear (and traits, etc…) is dictated by who you run with in your team. Maybe FOR YOU, it’s the best, because you are so selective about your team mates gear and skill level. For others who aren’t, more support or front line contribution might be necessary.

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

You still fail to see how I’ve talked about gear working with skill level.

Yeah, I see alot of talk but nothing that indicates there is a link between a player’s skill and what gear they use. A player of any skill level can use any gear they can afford. If you measured the value of a person by their gear, the only thing you would know is that they can afford a set of exotic gear. You don’t seem to place much value on people, even if that value is misplaced on their skills.

We aren’t talking about who you would kick here. We are talking about the rather stupid idea that good players only run in zerker. A good player will run whatever gear is required for the situation and adapt to what is needed.

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

Seeing PVT gear is a definite giveaway of a bad player.

and the second you put a noob in zerker gear, he’s the biggest liability in that team. Then your philosophical ideals about how gear indicates skill fall apart because they are based on poor assumptions.

Aza.2105:

So you are confirming that guardian’s class skills are generic.

I’m not sure how you got that from my post … didn’t I say that the concept of Virtues were unique?

Aza.2105:

My idea for virtues is that the should become stances. When using VoJ guard switches to a offensive stance, increasing damage, crit chance and dmg, cond dmg and every five attacks burns the target.

VoR should be a supportive stance, that increases hp regen, healing power, toughness and has reduced condition duration.

VoC should be a defensive stance, that increases dmg resistance, max hp, toughness, boon durations and gives aegis every 30secs.

Something like this would be more unique than what we have now.

I don’t know … unique is unique. Is there grades for uniqueness? As for stances, the idea is reasonable. Would you be able to swap them out on the fly?

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

No it doesn’t. If someone wants to wear PVT and slow down a run, they can find a different group.

I’m going to recommend you have a full look at the thread … this has already been debunked as nonsense unless your lost seconds (not minutes) are that valuable to you. A player’s gear has a very small impact on the overall runtime.

In fact, the time you lose being selective about team mates or replacing the guy you kicked with someone else will be much greater than the time you lose running a dungeon with people who are not full zerker. Whatever. No one said logic was a per-requisite for playing MMO’s.

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

I will always kick a pug that wears PVT gear no matter what class they are playing. It demonstrates that they have no idea what they are doing and that they will slow the run down.

It also demonstrates you have made some bad or incorrect assumptions about people, their skills and the effect their gear has overall, on your team’s ability to run successful dungeons. That’s OK though, it’s as reasonable for us to expect people to be as knowledgeable about these things as it is for everyone to ‘learn’ how to play and run dungeons in full zerker gear.

The boons you get from the skills aren’t unique but the way we access them is. Yes, other professions have regen, burning etc … but they have to use specific weapons, traits, skills to get access. Ours are built into our profession … that’s unique because they are accessible always, regardless of your build.

What I think would be super neato to allow more versatility playing to our “We have Virtues” strength would be to allow the player to choose from a list of boons/conditions to associate with the Virtues instead of the three we have fixed. To balance this out better, each boon would have it’s different set of parameters for passive/active and you would be restricted in stacking … for example, you couldn’t stack a condition damage in each virtue.

I’m a little disappointed that this thread hasn’t generated a whole bunch of ideas about improving the class. Instead, it’s generated alot of controversial discussion about how deficient the class is, when it isn’t.

swiftpaw.6397:

The reality is that unfortunately for you, zerker set is the better choice in dungeons.

The debate here (at least to me) isn’t if PVT or zerkers is better. It’s if you kick people from team for what gear they are wearing, especially considering the 5 points I listed.

Llyren.3904:

I do believe in a good manners approach to gaming in general, finding it more relaxing. Joining a group that was advertised with a specific request, when one is unwilling to meet the request, strikes me as poor manners.

Sure and there isn’t a reason for doing that, just like it’s unreasonable to kick someone who doesn’t wear the gear you want part way through a dungeon.

Boonprot.6274:

I think that deserves a kick from group, don’t you?

Actually NO. If you make the team, you are committing to run with someone. If you join a team, you are committing to stay. If you feel there is a reason to not have someone in a team, don’t invite them in the first place. You have to set the expectation with the people in your group of what you want from them.

Even if you don’t believe that ‘good manners’ gaming approach, here are a few pragmatic points that would prevent any meaningful application of that ‘kicking-on-gear’ theory anyways:

1. You don’t actually know what gear people are using, unless you ask
2. The difference in gear has an almost negligible affect on time saved to run a dungeon
3. You will have almost no ability to determine who in the team is responsible if you THINK your run is too slow (HINT: it’s probably a FEW people, not just one)
4. You will have no ability to determine if it’s skill or gear making a person ‘bad’ even if you can pinpoint someone as the source of your non-optimized team.
5. Gear is a bad (the worst?) measure of capability to begin with

Did I forget any?

There are two ways to make teams:

1. Just grab any 4 people
2. Plan and organize roles, find people, test and optimize your gameplay

If you are in group 1 (aren’t most people?), your expectations aren’t that high anyways so have no justification to kick anyone unless they are AFK and leeching.

No, but challenging people about their build and how they want to play is.

Kirschwasser.3972:

… So long as I’ve informed you of these expectations.

That’s fair. Unfortunately, I don’t see people with that kind of rigorous approach to forming teams. That’s what makes statements being made about kicking people from team because of there gear so offensive to me. That whole approach to gauging someone because of gear is flawed in the first place. Think of this …

You find some Guardian in full zerker … get him in team and you find he needs ALOT of reviving. He met your expectation for gear. Do you kick him? Do you regret not getting someone in ‘not-zerker’ gear that knows how to play and stay alive, therefore making a smoother and faster run? I bet you would. The dying zerker guy is a much bigger liability than the guy that knows his limits and gears appropriately. People making PUG teams should be looking for players, not gear stats.

Gear is a TERRIBLE indicator of someone’s skill or potential performance.

Kirschwasser.3972:

And I’m saying that I personally feel I do notice it when fights are dragging on for way longer than usual.

It wouldn’t be such a problem if bosses weren’t such atrocious HP sponges.

I can agree with that … but I really find it hard for you to be able to single any particular person out as the culprit for whatever lack of damage your feeling and then feel justified in kicking them, assuming they aren’t full zerkers! That’s just pure speculation and it’s scapegoating. If you want fast fights, be specific when making PUGs or don’t PUG at all.

Kirschwasser.3972:

Granted, people that say “these people deserve a kick” are kinda being kittens, but it’s their party, do what you want.

Eww, I can’t believe people think like this! It’s THEIR party? Unless I missed something, no one ‘owns’ a party or invests any more into being in that party than anyone else in it. I’m hoping I’m just misunderstanding here … but everyone contributing to the party deserves to be in it unless they are being malicious, AFK or something similar.

Your missing the point. I’m not saying you can’t make comparisons for builds and gear in a controlled setting. I’m saying you can’t make comparisons for builds and gear in a dynamic, team-building exercise while doing content. That’s not a controlled testing environment and again, even if you could, how would you separate any difference as skill or gear related?

This goes again to my point … if overzealous teams think potential teammates should be kicked because they are using ‘selfish’ or ‘wrong’ gear, you better have a REALLY repeatable and reproducible method to determine what their gear is without asking them BEFORE you take them on in your team.

Kirschwasser.3972:

… Or I can look at one member of his class and weapon damaging a mob compared to watching him attack and damage a mob and go "Oh, hey, he’s like twice as slow.

What you are describing is a well organized test. It’s not something that ever happens making a team and doing content. Even if you COULD do what you say in a realistic team content setting, how do you even know if that difference is skill or gear related?

The only reason I’m challenging you on this is for the point I made in the first place … you’re not going to be capable in a PUG situation to measure someone’s capability (or lack of) to kick them based on gear. Until we get damage meters, it’s nonsense to suggest you should kick anyone for lacking damage, much less having the ‘wrong’ or ‘selfish’ gear.

If you don’t like the price, don’t buy it. ‘Scam’ solved.

Seetoo.9316:

But that’s exactly what selfish means. To not care for the greater good of the group because your own preference takes higher priority.

Sorry for the double post but this statement really burned me up. It’s completely ignorant.

When do you start to recognize that a person who knows they are not capable or ready to wear zerker gear in teaming scenarios who is NOT wearing zerker DOES care for the greater good of the team?

It’s sad to see this elitism. In MOST cases I have seen, a player will use the gear they feel most successful in because they WILL want to do their best. As much as a player can be undergeared, their can also be overgeared. I don’t want zerker monkeys for teamates in PUGS. I want people comfortable in their own skin. No one has anything to prove.

purgatoryz.6038:

That’s a fail analogy, because a fat person, unless they are sitting next to me on an airline seat, aren’t really affecting me. Bad group members, on the other hand, have the ability to drag an entire group down.

OK maybe but I’m not here to be pedantic with you. Not having WoR doesn’t make a player bad and certainly not DRAG a group down ever. As I said, if you PUG, you get what you get.

I think people forget a fundamental thing here … no one is actually in a position to tell someone how to play no matter how bad you think they are unless you pay for their time and game.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

“I don’t want to use that skill.”
“…why not?”

Out of principle for me. I personally don’t think that telling someone how they should play and what to do is respectful to a player … as a player who also seeks to be respected. If you want to run optimized dungeon runs, form a group and assign roles, and ONLY play with them. That’s the only situation I would say you could ‘critique’ someone’s build openly.

In a PUG, you get what you get and even then, unless you simply suspect someone doesn’t know about WoR, it’s simply not your place to debate and critique their build with them unless they ask you to. It’s a lot like insulting a person for being fat, thinking it will motivate them to lose weight.

Kirschwasser.3972:

Amins.3710:

Obtena.7952:

You know what the best part is …

Even if someone was wearing PVT gear in a dungeon vs. something else, you wouldn’t even notice it. So much for the macho elitism.

+1
…
…
…
…
…

Actually it’s painfully easy to notice, so long as there’s a moment where he’s the only one attacking a given mob.

That’s not true because the damage someone does is a perception. To make that statement, you need a quantitative way to measure a certain performance level for a player in a specific encounter AND determine what fraction of their performance is due to gear vs. their own skill. You, nor anyone else, has access to a tool like that. If a player is not performing to your standard, it could be a number of factors, gear being only ONE.

Furthermore … how many dungeons are there were a team has the opportunity to observe a single person fighting a mob with everyone else just sitting back and telling him how much they suck because they are making assumptions about his gear? Don’t bother … that’s a rhetorical question.

spoj.9672:

There are so many reasons why healing power and other defensive stats are useless in pve but I wont bother going into that. If you want to play with a selfish build, thats fine by me. Just think about how you could be doing alot more for your group and making it a much more enjoyable experience if things go faster/smoother.

You’re just failing to recognize the impact that a player’s skill has on how successful they are, irregardless of what gear they use. Maybe you view anything not zerker as ‘selfish’ builds, some people NEED those ‘selfish’ builds to help their team as much as their skill allows. They aren’t helping anyone being dead. Throw a noob in a zerker build and that’s what you get … dead. There is nothing fast or smooth about trying to revive the guy that believes in the crap about ‘Zerker is best’ and hasn’t got enough knowledge or experience to stay alive in it.

spoj.9672:

Someone mentioned you dont notice people running PVT. You really do even if its just 1 out of 5 players. We had a pvt pug guardian in a 30 frac a month ago, the difficulty went way up simply because the group dps was so lacking.

That someone was me and no you really don’t because the players skill has such a significant factor on their damage that you can’t possibly single out their gear as the reason you might be having a hard go at some content. Your singular experience does NOT give you enough experience to conclude how that PVT Guardian performed in that team vs. a zerker one … there simply isn’t a way t separate the impact on performance between gear and player skill. For all you know, if he was zerker, you might have done worse because a Dead Guardian does no damage at all. It’s NOT just about your gear.

spoj.9672:

Im not trying to stroke my ego. I want to help players, and for players to become better at dungeons they need to realise the best way to do them.

Unfortunately, you aren’t helping players with your approach because not every player is as capable as the ones that are soloing dungeons and single handedly making a noticeable impact on their teams damage in Zerker gear. The genuinely best advice here is that people need to determine what gear load works for them. Telling people they are selfish because they aren’t ready or capable to run full zerker isn’t helpful … it’s being a jerk.

You know what the best part is …

Even if someone was wearing PVT gear in a dungeon vs. something else, you wouldn’t even notice it. So much for the macho elitism. Everyone can put away their “I’m a great Zerker Guardian” posturing now.

Um, immobilizing something for 5 seconds so you don’t have to dodge while you finish it off from ranged is an amazing capability.

Elite signet? OK, why not.

Increase speed? No way.

Personally I think it’s a little insulting to tell someone how to play, especially if you are in a PUG. No one has a clue what everyone’s skills and knowledge are. Don’t assume that if they aren’t WoR, they are noobs that need you to tell them to use it.

Ask them nice, if they don’t want to use it, then let it go. WoR is nice. There are other useful ways to help your team, even if it’s ‘helping’ them by giving them tough love.

Bailey.6892:

Obtena.7952:

SIGH … clearly some people aren’t getting the idea that a strength is something you do well, even if someone does it better or even if it’s not a great thing to do.

No I completely get it, play to our strengths even if our strengths are laughable.

I hope you aren’t implying our strengths are ‘laughable’ if you intend to be taken seriously by anyone. If Guardian isn’t working for you, it’s not the profession that has a problem. There are many effective builds for Guardian in WvW, including ones for roaming and camp flipping, all well documented in this forum by people more experienced in it than you or I. I suggest you give those a serious run for your money if you are going to challenge the notion established by very experienced players that Guardian is a more than effective WvW class.

SIGH … clearly some people aren’t getting the idea that a strength is something you do well, even if someone does it better or even if it’s not a great thing to do.

The idea you play to your strengths has NOTHING to do with the fact that a warrior is better sustain or a Ranger does better self heals. You guys are completely missing the point here.

One approach is the idea that the ‘best’ builds are the ones that will play up the most strengths a profession has.

Example: Why is Hammer so good? Why do people like shouts? Because it plays to MANY strengths. Why is Scepter and spirit weapons so crap? Because they play to hardly strengths.