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Sure … if you are soloing. Again, PVE is not a competitive gaming element unless you make it one so how good a player’s situational awareness and damage output is in PVE isn’t as critical to success as you make it seem, nor are they the only factors to consider if a player is good. Being good is more than doing a lot of damage and dodging. It’s also about reading your team and adapting to what others are doing. I would say that’s equally or more important in cases where you are PUGing.
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Situational awareness and damage output are not the only considerations for choosing gear for a particular situation or content.
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That’s an opinion that dictates how you wish to play. It’s not something you should push as a fact to shame or harass others to conform to your approach.
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That true, so it leads to the questions
“Is gear a good indicator of performance?”
“Can you be good if you aren’t in zerker gear?”
If he was a clever man the precursors wouldn’t be 1000 gold.
What makes you think that’s not inline with what he wants? Makes sense to me … drive people to crafting them later.
However, they really should be craftable as well, since right now, the jeweler discipline really has no purpose to level to 400 other than for Gift of Ice.
It has lots of purpose … people don’t just jump into Ascended trinkets at level 1.
I found the best for me was to go with passive VoJ procing
To make that more effective, I needed Virtue 30 for Permeating Wrath and Supreme Justice. I also excluded hammer because it’s slow.
To make Virtue 30 ‘not wasted’, I went boon increase and shouts, with GS+Mace/Focus. That gives me decent speed hits and boon procs
I’m still deciding on the rest. Gear is a complete mess of Rampagers and Carrion. In all, it’s a long term project. Not much is definite at the moment. It still melts tanks and stealthers though.
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I don’t really combo my weapons but I do have favourites for various kinds of content:
Sword/focus + GS for PVE farming and events
Hammer/Staff for WvW
Mace/Sheild + Septer/focus for Dungeons
Then it’s not really a problem is it? Those who don’t optimize shouldn’t have a problem being asked to ping gear. If non optimize people take issue with it, it’s because they want to be carried.
I can agree with that much. It’s the LEAST that these ‘pro’ players should be doing. In fact, I’m certain if the ‘pros’ were so concerned to filter their teams as such, the frequency it happens indicates to me that all this stuff about non-DPS people leeching from these pros in PVE teams is just fabricated nonsense.
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So once again you’re excusing players running bad builds.
What you call an excuse is simply the reality of the game. Who says they can’t run bad builds? Who defines what bad builds are? Again, these are just player-made constructions being used as the premise for equally disingenuous statements that non-DPS PVE builds aim to ‘COUNTER’ and ‘LEECH’ from the team’s efforts. Nonsense.
I’m in no position to tell someone what to do and how to play. What makes anyone else think they have that authority? The only choice we have is if we decide to team with players who use ‘bad’ builds.
My personal opinion on the matter .. I would rather have a skilled knowledgeable player run a ‘bad’ build (WETF that is) than a noob who runs the builds people tell him are good.
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Running glass cannon in zergs or pvp can just get you killed. In WvW it makes you a rally bot if you’re running in the thick of fights or being careless with your dodging/mitigation and in pvp, you’ll have a hard time holding a point against something like a bunker necro that will just outlast you, so yes you can have builds that counter your team’s purpose.
I urge you to read my post again … I specified the difference between COMPETITIVE vs. not-competitive content to make my point. I’m not sure you caught that.
It appears to be worth repeating; If I’m in a team we aren’t doing competitive content, there is no reasonable expectation for me to run the ‘best’ build, other than to cater to someone else’s ideas of what is the correct way to play. Any level of performance that dictates how a player should play or build their character in non-competitive play is just an artificial construction. Therefore, it doesn’t matter.
Even in competitive play, the responsibility to ensure team cohesion is on the people making the team to ensure they get the people they want, not the general populous to adhere to whatever ideas any particular team has as how to play.
The only case where I can think of where someone’s specific build choices does impact PVE is if a few players in the team have conflicting toolsets.
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To make it short, i don’t care what builds people use in spvp, wvw or pve. I do care what builds people use when im in my team in tpvp and i might care if i still played organized in dungeons.
Pve, pug dungeons/fotm, spvp, and wvw isnt competitive so i cant force people to play my way and i think the same respect should be headed the other way.
You’re saying running a build counter to the group/team’s purpose (winning the fight/defeating the zerg/clearing the dungeon) is respectful? Showing disregard for the good of the team is respect?
It is not possible to have a build that COUNTERS the team’s purpose (and not every team’s purpose is to complete content in the ‘best’ way possible either). There might be terrible builds, but they still add even the smallest contribution. The point being, if it’s not competitive content or you team isn’t aiming for some record, even the worst builds still contribute. How much is definitely debatable but if it’s not competitive or optimized play, it doesn’t matter if people aren’t playing competitive or optimized builds.
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Depends what you call grind …
For me that means you repeat the same content hundreds of times. That’s not the case here. The new items and how you make them are obtained through various different activities.
YES … it’s alot of things to do to get them, but it’s all different.
On the other hand, if you interpreted ‘no grind’ as ‘Anet just gives away BiS loot’, that’s just dumb.
People running away from my Guardian doesn’t sound like a bad thing to me.
The concept of the class is to enhance teaming. Any activity that isn’t approached by a player with that in mind will feel ‘short’.
Not as good as I hoped. Probably just salvage and sell the ones I got from my MF gear. I’m not sure 25% movement speed really helps us anyways.
It would be interesting to see how all these heals compares to other classes. Too much work I would think. Much of what you demonstrate is inline with intuitions I had. I feel that there is a good analogy between our burning as offense and our healing as defense. They can be good, but you sacrifice quite a bit to get them their. Most the time, we accept builds where healing is ‘good enough’ to maintain a minimum DPS. I would love to see more traits that provide you offensive bonus for defensive traits (like Retributive Armor).
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Fun and balanced? To each his own I guess. As long as it works for what you use it for and you like it. Not anything like I would run.
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Since July 8th, bronze ingot at about 24c to today at 88c, and thats about the same for every other resource. This is a basic resource that is apart of alot if items that also get raised in prices. This is a problem for all the new people coming in.
So yea, economy is jacked up.
A new person can’t afford to buy mats to craft anyways, regardless of the prices so … no, it’s not a problem for them.
As for ‘stable’, that depends on what the meaning is. ‘Achieving equilibrium’ is what I think and we do see this. Anet does admit tomorrow will be a serious destabilizing effect. Sounds find with me. If you farm your own stuff, you don’t cry about economy.
Frankly, who cares anyways? Stable or not, there’s always going to be rich and poor, people with and without a clue how to make money on the TP and stuff like that.
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Me too. Something wrong with login server.
Extremely disappointed that Rodgort apparently isn’t sharing in getting an overhaul. I guess not many have it, and since the minority wasn’t very vocal they just ignored us.
Your opinion that Rodgort needs an overhaul is not evidence that Anet is ignoring ‘us’. Anet is generally doing a pretty awesome job with GW2 IMO. If you seriously think there is something wrong, I would suggest a more mature approach to expressing it.
The MF changes are exciting: Rune of Traveler giving all stats, condition damage, boon duration and movement speed. Me like.
What ‘button’ is being held to ‘charge’? Sounds ridiculous.
I’m not sure loading on shouts is the best approach. Those kind of choices (IMO) depend on what’s happening with your team. You can always swap to whatever skills/traits you need as you progress and see what you need. For example, If your team needs alot of revives, you could trait to Protective Reviver.
I can’t comment on level … I didn’t do any dungeons until level 80 because I didn’t want to limit myself.
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Something like this perhaps? I won’t claim its the best but might be a nice starting point. Keep in mind you can’t afford to ignore your damage either. It’s not fully tested either. I don’t have the celestial yet.
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A more accurate answer would be to list the weapons and some of the things that they do to support. You choose the kind of support you want to provide the team.
Mace: Regen boon through symbol
Hammer: Protection boon through symbol
Shield: Blocking and AoE reflects
Staff: Swiftness boon through symbol, Might boon stacking for team, direct heals for team
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Sorry, some off topic question here …
Where does this 41.9% crit chance optimization point come from? I see nothing particularly interesting about the math that determines resulting damage as a function of crit chance and damage for this value of crit chance.
Back in old Team Legacy days we did a lot of universal stat optimizations. The google docs are security locked so I’m unable to send you a link to the exact math behind it, but it’s a trigonometric function that shows optimal stat distributions. The crit chance line is the most defined point where the “benefits” you get from it become linear after 41.9% when seeking a balanced approach. Mind you, everything in those docs is purely mathematically perfect, not realistically perfect. If you want 70% crit chance, be my guest. At that point though, your build won’t be mathematically “perfect”, or balanced, so to speak.
That’s all a bit cryptic to me.. What I know is that there isn’t an optimal point in the function that relates damage increase to crit chance or damage (the function on GW2Wiki). That’s a very simply increasing function.
I guess when you speak of universal stat optimization, you are talking about a method that determines the best targets for various stats based on the constraints of gear slots and values to achieve a maximum output of something …. damage I assume?
Regardless, are you certain the game mechanics that determine this optimal point for crit chance are still relevant in the game now?
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Sorry, some off topic question here …
Where does this 41.9% crit chance optimization point come from? I see nothing particularly interesting about the math that determines resulting damage as a function of crit chance and damage for this value of crit chance.
I wouldn’t get overly concerned about a lack of vitality but the offensive skills are a little unbalanced … You can’t rely on the burning alone to pull you through and Crits are built off your base damage, which is a function of power. Forget the idea it’s a burning build … it lacks power to support the high crit rate.
From what I can see from the GW2 Wiki (there is a chart showing damage increase as a function of crit damage and duration), it seems to me that this number is something someone pulled from their rear end. There really isn’t anything special about the Resulting damage as a function of crit chance in the 41.9%. The resulting damage is simply a steadily increasing function of crit damage and chance.
Is there an alternate source of analysis where this is documented?
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Seems to be two schools of thinking on this one:
1. Guardian (or anyone else for that matter) should bring as much damage as possible, making the dungeon experience go as quickly as possible. This means everyone should be in DPS builds. This is not for the inexperienced player because for this to work, your other teammates must also be as capable to do their top DPS while staying alive. Essentially, this school of thought is akin to soloing … but with a team to split aggro enough among themselves long enough so that a few dodges and some heals will get you through your aggro window. When I envision this approach in practical terms, I think of open world Champion encounters with only 5 people to kill it.
2. Guardian should bring their strengths to the group. The concept of the Guardian is evident. We bring an increase of mostly defensive capabilities to our team. Builds of this sort are hybrids (a combo of different things; tanking, damage, support, heals) or very strong support (boon spam and duration increase). The builds are more flexible in terms of gear and who you can team with and more appropriate for pick up groups (PUGs) or people that need more carrying through. This is a more recommended route for the new dungeoneer that may lack resources or experience to sit in with group 1.
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I’ve seen this a few times now. I’ve also done some of my own assessment. Where does this value come from?
500 damage at the max …
With the presented build, he’s pushing 700/s just from burning. Still, I agree that has limited value in PVP unless your doing some passive AOE VoJ tricks traiting Virtue.
It’s not clear if the OP wants for PVE or PVP … For a pure damage consideration in PVE, it’s uncertain to me if the damage gain from Toughness and Precision on Rabid is better than the Power you get from Carrion. I would probably mix the two up a little.
OP should consider dumping Rune of Smoldering … you need increments of 25% and 33% to get the extra second ticks on active VOJ and Zealots. I question the inclusion of the torch as well.
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It’s not noobish but it’s not what most people consider a competitive build, primarily due to the poor stat-to-damage conversion on burning. Unfortunately, that’s not an unreasonable thing in this case because burning is supplemental; we have to expect that sources of supplemental damage aren’t comparable to direct damage. The advantages to using burning aren’t as tangible as damage or damage reduction stats.
The Pyroclasm thread is a great source of information. It doesn’t recommend this particular approach for using burning but if you are still interested in a build as you are suggesting, you can check my signature (i think it’s updated).
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Sword doesn’t have alot going for it as a dungeon weapon:
CON
-No symbol
-No boon
-Very situational #1 Chain
PRO
2 is great
It’s damage is on par with most the others. In fact, most of Guardian weapons have high damage coefficients so it’s hard to go wrong there.
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I’m really not a fan of making any category of build related to a specific weapon. That being said, Anet already do that with Mace (healing), etc… so it doesn’t seem unreasonable to give Sword a more defined role in our repertoire as THE Cdamage weapon.
Let’s just go with Sword as you suggest. I would rather see it on the second chain in #1. #2 is good enough as is, 3# has it’s purpose and it wouldn’t be wise to put more goodies into it.
What would I rather see on #1? I’m not sure but I do know I don’t like the idea of bleeding. Conceptually doesn’t feel like Guardian. It also feels a little lazy. Torment is cool because it’s new but I don’t believe it helps us much. I honestly like poison, because it seems appropriate for builds that ‘stick around’ in their opponents face.
It’s not out of the question they make a new condition either.
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I don’t see how his perception isn’t relevant. Making a build, testing it, changing it … that’s all related to how a player THINKS it’s working or even how convinced of the things they read on forums, guild chat, ingame OOC, etc… . Is that not perception?
I don’t think many people give enough consideration to how playing the game actually works when they post to these ‘what should I do’ threads. It’s not simply “I tell you what to do, You do it”. Anyone with that approach isn’t likely to help people reach their full potential and capability.
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Looks like I wasn’t clear enough (though I’m not surprised you wanted to use this as a platform for your position on DPS Guardians again). I wasn’t referring to the speed of a group with a specific makeup of players. The point is: His baseline isn’t speed clearing. He’s not going to notice any particular dungeon runs wasn’t as fast as a speed clearing group.
You don’t need to wait … you can join non-speed clearing group and realize you didn’t actually loose any time clearing the dungeon.
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I would rather see some increase to our current condition damage as opposed to stacking another one. 1 stack of bleed wouldn’t be worth the trouble unless it’s a Adept level trait.
And empowering might boosts group DPS.
Wow, you’re a little behind today aren’t you … Empowering might isn’t honor 30 or PoV.
BTW, didn’t this thread already cover how situational (and mediorce) EM is? Ah well, I’m sure you gave it a good read. You seem to be following along quite closely.
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.. BUT BUT … zerker guardians don’t need anything but DPS … DPS is the ultimate best ever for PVE. Remember? Anything else is just pure noob! That kind of thinking will get you kicked from teams!
30 honor is just crap for a DPS build. The stats are wasted, the trait points are wasted.
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Maybe I do but not without reason … some health humility should clear up some inconsistent messaging for people asking questions as well.
AH, that’s music to my ears. Here I was thinking that anything that wasn’t full DPS zerkers builds was just useless, deserved a kick and made you a selfish leeching baddie.
DPS is absolutely primal in the game but does not mean that you 100% sacrifice all vestiges of self-preservation in pursuit of it.
I agree with that but it seems that line of thinking doesn’t resonate with the people pushing the idea that DPS is best for PVE which was the point I was making with Spoj who thinks anyone that doesn’t understand why a DPS build wouldn’t use PoV is ignorant.
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I would agree with that definition of DPS guardian so back to spoj ….
I don’t think someone that doesn’t believe that a DPS guardian should take 30 Honor for Pure of Voice is ignorant because that trait doesn’t DO anything if your goal is to increase you sustained damage.
What that DOES tell me is that any Guardian taking Pure of Honor then flipping around and saying you need to be uber-DPS with full Zerkers in all PVE content is being hypocritical.
Because you take a dps guard for the support they provide while dealing good damage. You can go maximum dps, but you almost always need someone in the group to have condi cleanse. The maximum damage role is pretty much never taken by the guard, thats left for LH ele’s, warriors, thieves… basically every class except the guardian. Because the guard has such good defensive traits that can be taken without sacrificing too much dps.
Not to harp this point but I feel like I was just double talked here:
If DPS is the ultimate setup for PVE, always
… and anything but DPS setup is worthless in PVE, even for Guardians
… then how can you advocate 30 points for a defensive trait in a defense-oriented line?
Your base critical chance is 4%.
Ah, I was unaware of this. Thank you very much for that. I also didn’t see it in the wiki.
… is the chart in Gw2Wiki for crit damage multiplier wrong? First thing that tips me off is that if you have zero crit chance, you multiplier still goes up as you increase crit damage … That’s not how the formula provided works.
Average damage = Base damage * ( 1 – Critical Chance ) + Base damage * ( Critical Chance * (Critical Damage + 1.5) )
If crit chance = zero, the term on the right simplifies to:
Average damage = Base damage
This has no dependence on Critical Damage, yet the chart shows it does.
This isn’t a purely academic question … I was wondering what increases for crit chance and damage give the best bang for the buck. This information is part of that answer.
I would agree with that definition of DPS guardian so back to spoj ….
I don’t think someone that doesn’t believe that a DPS guardian should take 30 Honor for Pure of Voice is ignorant because that trait doesn’t DO anything if your goal is to increase you sustained damage.
What that DOES tell me is that any Guardian taking Pure of Honor then flipping around and saying you need to be uber-DPS with full Zerkers in all PVE content is being hypocritical.