Guild Wars 2

Well, Anet could start by simply removing this stupid rule that gives a server Bonus Points just for zerging instead of sending out small groups or scouts for the smallest objectives:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Clarification-needed-please/first

Esoteric.5490:

Words cannot even describe. Just wow. The objective viewpoints, critical thinking, meaningful discussion, and general good sportsmanship in this thread is astonishing.

I mean holy kitten. How the hell can everyone just troll so hard? It makes me want to throw up. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Just log on to Guru for a minute to see what an oasis of sanity this forum really is…
(^_^)

Vena.8436:

Otokomae.9356:

As it is now, it is still a hidden mechanic, since it wasn’t even acknowledged to exist at all until yesterday.

We’ve known about this for more than a month if not far longer, the only new information is the clarity on how points are calculated.

We on the forums, and many hardcore WvWers knew that Yaks were adding points. As recently as this weekend, there were people arguing vehemently for at least a dozen different theories as to how this mechanic worked, and most of them were absolutely certain that they were right (almost no one seemed to believe that Yaks awarded points based on the number of people tagging it, which has now been confirmed by a Dev.)

This is still a very small minority of the people playing GW2. It’s a “hidden mechanic” until the exact points added are listed the way PPT is listed, or the points pop up above a Yaks head every time they die, or Anet puts up some official page explaining how all the points in WvW works, or something like that. If we have to go through this much trouble for 8 months to figure out even 1/2 of this mechanic, then it’s a hidden mechanic. Many, many players still don’t even know that Yaks or anything else aside from basic structures can award any points for the server at all.

Vena.8436:

Otokomae.9356:

But if a server that was really bent on winning knew that they could trade all the Supply you have listed in your example for an above +1,000 PPT, they would probably consider that a good trade.

No they wouldn’t. They would never win if they let every single yak be killed, do you realize how silly and absurd that sounds? Ten soloers shutting down every supply route to your keeps and towers would make you literally have an order of magnitude more people escorting those yaks and murdering every single thing that moves on the map, rabbits included.

I never said “let every single yak be killed”, or anything like that. Owning NO structures or camps at all, and simply maximizing the points available from Yaks alone, a server could maintain a +1,440 PPT, if the 10-point cap is correct. The other 2 servers COMBINED would be splitting a +695 PPT from Structures and Camps between them. I know it SOUNDS absurd, but the server in this example who maximizes points from Yaks while holding NO towers/keeps/camps still wins.

1,440 > 695, right? If you believe that 695 is a larger number than 1,440, you’ll need to explain that a little more.

Vena.8436:

Otokomae.9356:

TLDR: 10 points (same as a Tower) > 1 Yak worth of supply

You are still failing at basic logistics here: 10 points requires 10 people you cannot compare this to 1 point requiring 1 person. Its 10 vs. 10 or 1 vs. 1 but not 10 vs. 1 thats not how scientific arguments or logic work.

In this game it can be and often IS 10 points vs 1 point. That’s what this whole conversation is about. There is no rule that says that 1 server with a much greater population can’t put 10-man teams on each Yak route.

Vena.8436:

What I’m talking about is balance on the part of how points are rewarded to the server vs. the functions provided. That is to say that something that provides a lot of X will provide less of Y, so for example 5 soloers soloing five yaks rewards only 5 points but denies 350+ supply while a five-man killing a yak gains 5 points instantly but only denies 70+ supply but they can also flip the camp more quickly.
The yaks in the end are a matter of balance on ten or more people killing a yak:

• Less likely and common than a soloer ganking them.
• More manpower intensive outside of coincidental convergence.
• Incapable of covering the same territory as an equal number of soloers

So they earn more points in the instance where they have killed that yak, but in the meantime the soloers have denied much more supply (probably killed as many yaks anyway, making the point idea moot to begin with), covered more ground as scouts, and in general done more favor to their server than some 10 points to the scoreboard.

This is still terribly unbalanced, because you’re assuming a best-case scenario for the server that’s sending out solo Yak-slappers. If a server outnumbers their opponent by a wide enough margin (not a very big IF, since it happens a lot) that they can station Yak-slapping TEAMS on as many routes as their opponent can put solo yak-killers on, then the server with greater numbers is going to get a whopping 10 TIMES MORE POINTS for no other reason than that they simply put more people on the field. They also deny EXACTLY the same amount of supply as their opponents. This situation gets worse when you consider that, if the cap on Yak points is in fact 10, then points from Yak-slapping is potentially TWICE the ppt available from ALL TOWERS, CAMPS, & KEEPS COMBINED!

Now, I’m not aware of a server-wide attempt to really maximize points from Yaks, but if a large enough group decided to put all their manpower into this round the clock, it would make the Supply you listed above completely insignificant, since you could literally ignore every other part of the game and still win a WvW matchup by a wide margin. This all depends on what the point-cap for Yaks is, since we still need clarification from the Devs on this, but the most commonly referenced number is 10 points, which would mean that Yak-slapping alone could give a potential +1,440 PPT if a server really decided to maximize these points. As it is now, it is still a hidden mechanic, since it wasn’t even acknowledged to exist at all until yesterday. But if a server that was really bent on winning knew that they could trade all the Supply you have listed in your example for an above +1,000 PPT, they would probably consider that a good trade.

TLDR: 10 points (same as a Tower) > 1 Yak worth of supply

Liquid.9672:

From their silence on the topic, as well as not responding to the question in the “Willing to share WvW details?” thread, all I can assume is that they don’t want players to know the exact numbers because it somehow may negatively impact the way people play the game.

To be honest, this is already having a negative impact on the game, as small roaming groups and solo roamers can already see in the end-of-the-week score that their efforts are being wiped away quickly, as soloing 10 Yaks appears to just barely even out to the points gained from another server zerging just 1 Yak. This has lead to people transferring from server to server in a nearly endless quest to find some Xanadu-like server where small group play is both fun and rewarding. and those who don’t transfer are just lining up with the czerg-blob in increasing numbers. And this is all with the Dolyak point system remaining a hidden mechanic! People may not know exactly how it works, but they can “feel” that their small group efforts are having little-to-no effect because of rules like this.

Caliburn.1845:

If you kill a dolyak with one person, you get one point. With two people, two points. With three people, three points. It is capped at that number.

The problem with using your math as PROOF that Yaks only grant 3 points max is that you’d have to track how every Yak is being killed; are the scores being skewed by large numbers of people soloing Yaks or killing them in very small groups? Probably. This is still a hidden mechanic, and most people either don’t know how it works or don’t know that Yaks give points at all. Points on your current map are updated instantly when a Dolyak is killed. This makes it possible for someone else to kill a Yak/Take a sentry/etc somewhere on the other side of the map at the exact same time that your 10-man group is killing a Yak, changing the point tick you see at the moment you kill a Yak. This does NOT leave open the possibility of LOWERING the number of points you see when you kill Yak, however, as there is no way to “subtract” points from a server.

So if you can show several instances on video of 10 people tagging the same Yak and getting LESS than 10 points, this would at least support your theory that the cap on Yaks points is lower than 10. If you can show 10 people clearly tagging a Yak and getting exactly 3 points over and over, this would support the idea that the cap on points is 3.

PLEASE include some evidence of your theory if you post about a 3-point cap on Yaks again.

The original Title of this thread was “How many points is a Supply Caravan worth?” Still trying to work out the answer. If you’re sure you KNOW the answer please show some actual evidence so support your theory.

It would be immensely appreciated if someone from ArenaNet could shed some light on this for us. Is there a point cap for Dolyaks? If so, what is the point cap? How many points are awarded for each player who tags a Dolyak? Thank you!

Thrumdi.9216:

Was the point per person per Dolyak difference actually confirmed by the Devs?

I know on the weekend the new WvW dev posted it did not vary by number of attackers. Was this statement revised on Monday?

The statement was revised on Monday: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/How-many-points-is-a-Supply-Caravan-worth/first#post1742511

Caliburn.1845:

If you kill a dolyak with one person, you get one point. With two people, two points. With three people, three points. It is capped at that number.

Proof? Can you show any evidence that the cap is 3 points other than simply stating that you believe it to be true? Tons of different people on several forums have been witnessing a 10-point cap, and my own research has also shown 10-points to be the likely cap, as I have not seen a dolyak tagged by 10+ people giving only 3 points even once so far.

Evidence of the 3-point-cap would be something like a video showing 10 people tagging a yak, and 3 points going on the board instantly (or at least, LESS than 10 points for a minimum or 10 people tagging). This would need to shown at least a few times, and of course must be on a Yak that en route to somewhere not sitting in the camp idle, as you’ve already pointed out that those Yaks are worth nothing.

If anyone has any real evidence of the point cap being lower than 10 points, please feel free to post it here.

Also, if anyone from ArenaNet would like to clear this up for us, that would be greatly appreciated!

GrandmaFunk.3052:

Otokomae.9356:

This, of course, means that zerging a Dolyak actually gives your server 9 BONUS POINTS in comparison to soloing it…

Ok here’s the thing, you can’t compare the impact of one roamer to that of ten zergers… you have to compare similar values, ie: 10 roamers vs 10 zergers.

so sure, 10 players grouped together do get 10 points from killing a dolyak.. just like 10 players roaming on their own could get 10 points from each killing a different dolyak at the same time. Which of those two scenarios is actually more damaging to the enemy’s supply chain?

So… 1 solo roamer gets 1 point from killing a Yak. On the other side of the map, a 10-man-group gets 10 points for killing another Yak. “Which of those two scenarios is actually more damaging to the enemy’s supply chain?”

All that’s happening here is that servers who can spare more people to do an unchallenging PvE task are getting bonus points simply for sending the extra people out. We already know that numbers usually determine the winner of a WvW matchup, but most people don’t realize that big servers are actually getting BONUS POINTS simply for fielding more people on the map! If 3 servers manage to hold the combined 4 maps in WvW to a draw for a full week, the server who fields the most people could actually win through this “hidden mechanic” of bonus points going to the server that send out larger groups for what really are 1 person tasks.

The worst part is, of course, that if 1 or 2 servers are outnumbered by a larger server, there is simply almost no chance that they can pull off a win through skill, tactics, or strategy. This goofy Yak-slapping rule means that Dolyaks are potentially worth more points than ALL OF THE STRUCTURES IN WvW COMBINED. So a large server that can spare 10-man groups on all the Dolyak routes can win through sheer numbers, even if the smaller server kills the same (or more!) number of Dolyaks with fewer people!

If a Dev or ArenaNet employee would like to make sense of this rule, it would be greatly appreciated and very much welcomed.
(^_^)

Well, according to the current point system, solo roamers and small groups actually add fewer points to the board for their server than a czerg, even if they can solo the same objective.

The prime example of this is Dolyaks (Supply Caravans): It was just confirmed by the Devs yesterday that you do, in fact get more points for killing a Dolyak for each person who tags it. I’ve personally witnessed Dolyaks giving 10 points instantly dozens of times in the last 24 hours, and 10 seems to be the most commonly referenced number. So it appears that if you run in any group smaller than 10, you are effectively penalized for roaming, as you can do the exact same task as a larger group, but simply add fewer points for the server than if you had zerged that task, even though you’ve managed to solo the objective (Dolyak, in this case), which should have the exact same effect on the match. This, of course, means that zerging a Dolyak actually gives your server 9 BONUS POINTS in comparison to soloing it, despite the fact that zerging a Dolyak requires far less work from each person involved, and zerging through enemy territory involves far less risk for each person than soloing.

So yeah, they could add a title to the game (though if it’s like the other WvW titles, it will take 5+ years before you see people with it), but as long as rules like the “1 point per tag” on Dolyaks exist in the game, solo roaming or running around in small groups is basically playing to lose, and it’s designed to be that way by the gaming company. If you NEVER look at the score and only play WvW for fun or some PvP challenge, then this doesn’t affect you directly, but indirectly it means you’ll find far fewer roaming groups to PvP against, since most people do actually care about the score; at least a little bit, anyway.

It’s honestly one of the worst rules I’ve seen in a PvP game anywhere. It makes no sense at all, and gives totally unnecessary bonus points for zerging an objective that really is a 1-person job, incentivizing one of the most complained about tactics on these forums (unnecessarily zerging all over the map.)

This rule really needs to go. I would also support some sort of titles for Roamers, as I think that’s a great idea, but kind of irrelevant as long as the point system is designed so that solo roamers are effectively costing their servers points simply by their very playstyle.

Farhunt.5496:

What’s Structured PvP? I know not of what you speak.

sPvP is where ANY small groups are supposed to go for PvP, apparently. Anet just admitted this morning that zerging some objectives in WvW does, in fact, grant MORE points to the server than accomplishing the exact same task with a smaller group or solo. Small groups can be a lot of fun in WvW sometimes, but only if you don’t look at the score, apparently.

Well, the number “10” has come up over and over again when discussing the maximum number of points for killing a Dolyak. I’ve seen it suggested to be as high as 15. Either of these numbers would mean that Dolyaks can grant more PPT than ALL of the structures in WvW combined! So yes, Yak vs Yak could be a reality, though we still don’t for sure how many points a Dolyak can grant. If it is 10 or more, it would mean that you could literally ignore everything else in WvW and win just by maximizing the points gained from killing Dolyaks.

DevonCarver.5370:

I don’t have access to the exact numbers at home, but I do know that the points do not change based on the number of people that receive credit.

UPDATE: JK everyone, I misread this post and have now contributed to the confusion. I thought the OP was asking about World XP. The points rewarded to the score for Dolyak kills are indeed variable depending on the number of players involved.

OK, so now we’re hearing that the number of people who hit a Dolyak DOES affect how many points the server gets. To be honest, that’s all I really wanted to know, was basically how the mechanic works. He hasn’t said specifically HOW the mechanic works, but based off of what everyone here is saying (except for 40 or so posts by “Isaac”) I think we can assume that points go UP with the number of players involved.

This effectively works to penalize anyone who wants to try any sort of small-group play. If you sneak into enemy territory solo or with a few friends and hunt down Yaks, it turns out that you’re actually costing your server points if you have fewer than the maximum number of people with you. Unless this gets edited again tomorrow, this is effectively one of the most nonsensical rules I’ve ever seen in a game, although I suppose it does follow the basic theme of WvW at the moment.

TLDR: You do, in fact, get BONUS POINTS for zerging a Supply Caravan (Dolyak) rather than soloing it or killing it in a small group.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/march-2013/

Scroll down to where it says “Introducing Leaderboards”. It says " could take up to a week after the release goes live on March 26," which, understandably, many people found confusing, since it doesn’t really tell you when we’ll see leaderboards.

Or, like in basically every other decent game out there, the game company could just tell us how many points each objective is worth. The points don’t pop up above a Yak’s head or anything like that, so it’s currently a hidden mechanic that could be doing ANYTHING, we simply don’t know. I shouldn’t have to pay 3600 gems to transfer to another server and back just to find how the game works.

Now, I see that several people here strongly believe that a Dolyak is always worth exactly 1 point. There are also several posters in this thread saying something different. If someone here can show a group of 10 hitting a yak and giving a 1 point tick ON VIDEO just a couple of times, THAT would be helpful. Simply repeating “I’m obviously right, I just can’t prove it!” is not helpful at all. So please, show your work, or stop posting in this thread.

For the record, you simply need to scroll up to see that the Developer NEVER said that a Yak is worth 1 point and 1 point only.

Can we please get some clarification on this issue from ArenaNet?

All the evidence in this thread says you’re wrong Isaac. Unguarded Yaks are clearly shown awarding 3 points each. Somehow the Gamblit bumped that up to 4-6 points. You have never shown any evidence to support your claims. I still have no idea how the mechanic works, honestly, so I can’t even say for sure that you’re wrong, but it certainly looks like you are at this point.

Yeah, this whole thing is actually getting even harder to understand. I’ve been experimenting most of the day trying to figure out how the Dolyak points work, and it does actually seem pretty random. Here’s a quick, 4-part video I made today clearly showing the score change as each Yak dies:
http://youtu.be/SWD-o9KSM50

4 quick videos showing a VERY small sample of the points gained from killing a Dolyak.
1st video- I solo a Yak about 1/3 of the way thru its route, gain 3 Points.
2nd video- I solo a Yak near the end of its route, gain 1 Point
3rd video- I solo another Yak near the end of a different route, gain 1 Point
4th video- 3 people kill a Yak inside the camp, gain 3 Points

*Watch the BLACKGATE scores, as that is my server.

This point mechanic for killing yaks is a complete mystery to me so far… A little clarification on how this works would go a LONG way and be greatly appreciated!

Rawthorne.8675:

If you kill a yak right before it enters it is worth 15 points. Right after it leaves its 5 points. En route it is 10 points.

If you scroll up you’ll see screenshots of the points rolling over at 4 and 6 point ticks. So it’s clearly not a 5/10/15 point reward consistently. Also, I’ve killed several Yaks today trying to figure this out, and seen 1 point added to the board several times. Do you have screenshots, video, or any other evidence to dispute either Gamblin’s post or the Dev who posted here?

Going by the math you have listed, however, you’re right; @ 15 points each Dolyaks would be worth more per tick than ALL of the Structures in WvW combined.

Yeah, this is not necessarily about making zergs suddenly vanish, it’s more about people being rewarded for the work they put in. When an entire zerg steamrolls 3 people, everybody in the zerg gets full wxp rewards without putting in any real work (only playing the “mini-game” of tag-before-they-die) and without ever experiencing any sort of danger. The same goes for a 40-man zerg rushing an empty Supply Camp; you can literally afk during the entire fight with no worries, then hop in the circle at the last moment to get the full wxp reward.

Gamblit.5041:

I have some screenshots of the moment right befor Dolyak death and after.

Thank you for adding this, Gamblit. When asking about how Dolyaks award points, so far most of the responses have been a barrage of people going “You’re an idiot! THIS is obviously how it works!” But you are the first person so far to back up your theory with ANY kind of evidence at all. Very much appreciated, this actually adds something to the debate!

So, does anyone have any idea where these extra points are coming from? Is it coincidence that he’s killing a yaks at the exact same time that something else is happening on the same map? Or is there some currently unknown (or unproven) mechanic that awards more points for killing Yaks in a certain way?

Thank you very, VERY much for this confirmation!!! Even without exact numbers, simply knowing that a giant zerg doesn’t get more points for killing a Yak than a solo player makes a HUGE difference to game play.
(^_^)

+1 to the new WvW Coordinator!

Really, the craziest thing about this game is that we STILL don’t know how many points we’re playing for in WvW, where all of those points are coming from, or how the points are calculated. Simply releasing this VITAL information would be a huge boost to the game, in my opinion.

We STILL do not know exactly how many points we’re playing for, or how many points many of the objectives in WvW grant! To be honest, it’s almost impossible to play like this. I can’t really think of another successful game where you play for points without ever know where the points come from or how many points you can get.

Example: Dolyaks (Supply Caravans) – We’re 8 months in, and there’s still no official word on how many points we can get for these, or how the points are determined, and no one seems to be able to back up any of the many ideas there are on this subject with any sort of evidence at all. There are at least 3 major theories floating around about this, but testing in WvW is completely unreliable; last night I watched the points tick up by 26 at the EXACT moment a Yak died. Of course, I don’t believe that a Yak is worth 26 points under any circumstance as that would be completely game breaking, but it’s just an example of how unreliable this sort of testing is. It does feel like we’re playing blindfolded without this information, as we’re playing a competitive game for points, but without even knowing how many points we get for several of the objectives in WvW. Dolyaks (Supply Caravans) are currently the most mysterious and frustrating.

Something that’s remained a mystery for FAR too long is how many points the objectives in WvW are worth, with Dolyaks currently being the most unnecessarily mysterious. Does our new WvW Coordinator know how many points these little supply carriers are actually worth, and if so, is he willing to share some of the details with us? This is actually very important information for even basic gameplay in WvW, and VERY difficult to test so far.

There are at least 3 major theories floating around about this, but testing in WvW is completely unreliable; last night I watched the points tick up by 26 at the EXACT moment a Yak died. Of course, I don’t believe that a Yak is worth 26 points under any circumstance as that would be completely game breaking, but it’s just an example of how unreliable this sort of testing is. It does feel like we’re playing blindfolded without this information, as we’re playing a competitive game for points, but without even knowing how many points we get for several of the objectives in WvW. Dolyaks (Supply Caravans) are currently the most mysterious and frustrating.

SuiRyuJin.4615:

sentries actually give point depending on how long they have been up. i have gotten about 10 point off a sentry that has not been flipped in a long time, and then i flipped the same sentry back as soon as i can and i think i got 1 or 2 point for it.

This would also be very interesting, if true. Wiki and several other sources list Sentries as being ALWAYS worth exactly 1 point, but if what you say is true, that would make a sentry worth the same as a Tower, and TWICE as much as a supply camp! We really do need to know this sort of information, if there’s anyone on the forums who can actually CONFIRM any of it.

Exedore.6320:

Killing yaks is based on the number of players killing it with a cap on total points possible. Distanced traveled has no effect on points earned.

Do you have any sort of evidence to show that this is true in any way? For instance, a video showing 7 people hitting a Yak, and 7 points instantly going on the board, followed by 3 people hitting a Yak in the area, and 3 points going up on the board?

The problem here is that everyone who has voiced an opinion or idea about how they think points from Yaks are tallied seems to be just as certain as you are that their ideas are correct. I’ve been trying for days to get any sort of predictable outcome on video, but in Tier 1 there’s just too much going on, to be honest, so testing is completely unreliable. If someone in a lower Tier could show ANY kind of evidence of Yaks giving the predicted number of points (for tagging, location along the route, or a static reward) it would be GREATLY appreciated! This mechanic is far too mysterious for something that could be potentially game-changing.

Kerithlan.1659:

etrigan.4213:

Hey Mike/ArenaNet,

Can you go in to how Dolyak points work? It seems a random 1-4 points per Dolyak kill/delivery.

Is it truly random or is it decided by something we are not seeing on the backend?

I’m fairly sure that you gain more points the closer the Dolyak is to its destination when it’s killed. Let’s see what they say.

This question really got skipped over WAY too easily. Is there anyone from ArenaNet who would be so kind as to give us even a tiny bit of information on this subject?

There are at least 3 major theories floating around about this, but testing in WvW is completely unreliable; last night I watched the points tick up by 26 at the EXACT moment a Yak died. Of course, I don’t believe that a Yak is worth 26 points under any circumstance as that would be completely game breaking, but it’s just an example of how unreliable this sort of testing is. It does feel like we’re playing blindfolded without this information, as we’re playing a competitive game for points, but without even knowing how many points we get for several of the objectives in WvW. Dolyaks (Supply Caravans) are currently the most mysterious and frustrating.

Exactly – No one seems to have ANY ideas about whether or not ANY of the many theories about this subject are true or not. Can anyone address the question in the original post? Anyone at all?

Thank you to each person who has tried to answer this so far, by the way.

Where? Do you have a link? I can’t seem to find any information other than people saying “I heard that Yaks are worth X number of points”.
I read that they were worth thousands of points an hour: http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/19xanl/since_were_talking_about_wvw_dolyaks_and_sentries/

I’ve also read that each Yak was worth 10 points, 1 point or 3 points. No one seems to know, or if they do know, no one seems willing to explain HOW they know, or what the actual answer to this question is.

Does anyone have any concrete evidence showing how many points you get for killing a Dolyak (Supply Caravan)? Does it matter how many people tag the Dolyak, or how close it is to it’s destination? Or is it always a static reward, always giving the same number of points? Does anyone have any idea at all how this mechanic works, or has anyone ever captured video showing the points rolling over to the exact amount predicted by the number of people tagging the Yak or the location of the Yak or whatever?

Opinions on what a Yak “should” be worth or what you’ve “heard” a Yak grants in points are not what I’m looking for here; hoping to get an actual answer to this question, with even the slightest amount of evidence to back it up, since this particular mechanic seems to be shrouded in mystery for reasons that I, for one, cannot understand. Also, please don’t tell me why you think the information is not released; just looking for an answer as to how many points you actually get for killing a Supply Caravan, and whether or not it changes or is always the same. Thank you.

Isaac.6041:

You don’t need official statements to tell you something is obviously wrong.

Just because it seems “obviously wrong” doesn’t mean that this isn’t EXACTLY how it curently works. I mean, I thought it sounded obviously wrong the first time I heard that there was a Boss event in the lowest level Norn area that took less than 10 minutes to finish, respawned every 20 minutes, and gave essentially the same loot chest that Jormag gave… but until about a week ago, that was real! So yes, I need some kind of confirmation, considering that this information about how Dolyaks award points is the SAME information that most people believed on my last 2 servers as well.

Here’s a thread buy someone claiming that Dolyaks are worth more points per hour than all the structures put together: http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/19xanl/since_were_talking_about_wvw_dolyaks_and_sentries/
And another thread where people seemed to just throw their hands up and go “Eh, I maybe they give some points, but nobody will ever know how many” : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Score-Math

So yes, I need something other than a few random people on a forum saying “I don’t believe it can possibly work like that, you’re crazy!”

Has anybody got any idea at all just how many points a Dolyak (Supply Caravan" grants when it is killed? Does it matter how many people are involved? Does anyone have video of the score changing, or has anyone actually bothered to check the score changes when killing a Dolyak? Is there ANYONE official who can weigh in on this and remove at least some of the mystery? You don’t have to tell me exactly how many points a yak is worth, just let us know whether the number of people or position along the path or anything else matters, or if it is just a static reward that is always the same every time a Dolyak is killed.

Yeah, I always thought that the idea of a Dolyak being worth the same as a tower was a little ridiculous. I still can’t find a video, point log, or official statement anywhere showing how many points a Dolyak gives, so the people on my server could still be correct, as far as I know.

This is getting off topic, but making less than you should for accomplishing the same task as someone else is a penalty. If what I said in the original post is true, then a Supply Caravan (Dolyak) is worth 10 points. However, if you solo kill this Dolyak, you only get 1 of those points. If you want to call this a “Bonus for Zerging” or a “Bonus for bringing 2 whole, 5-man parties to do a 1-person job” that’s fine, it still punishes anyone running in a group smaller than 10.

However, now that Burl has brought up the idea that points simply may not work like this at all, I’d really like to see some sort of confirmation on just exactly how the points from Dolyaks do work. My entire server, and several others, seem to have been playing under the belief that Dolyaks award points based on the number of people who tag the Yak before it dies. I can’t seem to find credible evidence anywhere to dispute this, so I’m hoping someone can show something that says “this is how it works” one way or the other, or that someone from Anet can confirm whether or not this is a punishment handed down for playing in small groups in WvW (or a bonus to larger groups, or whatever).

Do you have a source for this? Because I would love to see anything proving that that is how it works. It’s been posted all over the place for several months that you get 1 point for each person who tags a Yak, however, and on my server people are actually being flamed for soloing yaks instead of just crippling it and calling out in map chat for 9 more people to come tag it before it dies. So does anyone have any evidence that points are NOT based on the number of people who tag a Dolyak, or is there anyone official who can tell us just how this works?

I just can’t figure this one out; why are there rules in place in WvW that seem specifically designed to penalize small group play, and nothing else?

The obvious example of this is Dolyaks; when you kill a doyak, it puts points on the board for your server, HOWEVER, the number of points is not the same for every group. You get 1 point for every person who tags the Dolyak, up to 10 points, so if you sneak into enemy territory and solo a yak you are actually LOSING points for the server; you were supposed to have brought a minimum or 10 people with you to kill that Dolyak! I understand giving everyone who tags the Yak the same rewards, but adding points for each person involved? This makes no sense at all.

Rules like this seem to be designed specifically to punish anyone who tries to run in a groups smaller than 10, or makes any attempt to win points in WvW through skill rather than numbers. It’s as if you are SUPPOSED to zerg even the simplest objectives in WvW, or you actually lose points for your server, even if you can do the same job solo.

Can anyone explain why this rule even exists, other than to promote zerging, or is this something that’s being fixed by any chance?

Eh, portals and stealth aren’t really the problem. The problem is the seemingly random way in which the “5 man rule” is applied; I mean, nearly every AoE a single player can throw out hits a maximum or 5 people, and most buffs do the same, but portals can carry 20 people, and even worse, Mesmer Swiftness and Stealth appears to work on an unlimited number of people. It really should take more than 1 person to stealth an 80-man zerg, especially if the rules are set down so that 1 person is simply unable to attack them in any way (even arrow carts won’t hit the massive zergs we’ve been seeing in Tier 1 lately.)

Wait a sec… you mean your server actually has a giant zerg-ball that stops moving for more than 2 seconds once in a while? We honestly don’t see much of that in Tier 1. This exact strategy has been tried by quite a few groups over the past 3 months in T1, but the zerg meta in this this tier is to roll through enemies without stopping, turn, veil, and roll through them again, repeating this until everyone is dead. It never stop moving, however, and most zergs are keeping up permanent swiftness and are very quick to drop group stability and cleansing as well, so the zergs are very hard catch by any means other than using the same exact tactic, only with a larger zerg.

SmokeyNYY.7841:

Urrid.4593:

bradderzh.2378:

Around lvl 5-7 on a number of alts (yeah I ain’t gonna stop playing them all just because Anet wants me to)
It’s a broken system anyway. Just got to rename karma farm to Wxp farm and we are good to go.

Anet missed an incredible opportunity to reward the guys who defend those camps, buff those yaks, build oil, and all those little things that make those wooden structured turn into actual fortifications.

A million times this…. THIS!

Building up a broken cannon/oil should = WxP. Repairing a gate is currently the only outright “defensive” thing that currently rewards WxP if a tower/keep/castle is defended.

Then you would have people repairing garrison walls against trebs for hours long wasting all our supple when we don’t want you to repair just so you get some wxp? No thank you, way too many ways for this to be abused.

Yeah, as much as I would love to see these kind of things rewarded with wxp, people would ruin it, I’m afraid. And not a few people, but massive numbers. There’s a reason why escorting Dolyaks currently gives no rewards whatsoever; you used to get karma/silver/xp for escorting Dolyaks, just like any other event, until people figured out that Dolyaks could be used as a never ending karma train that way! We ended up with massive zergs of 50+, often 50-90% of the entire que for a map, just running Dolyaks back and forth and nothing else. I remember seeing nearly an entire week’s matchup, right before the Dolyak escort event rewards were removed, where all week long we had 3 Borderland maps that stayed full-capped at 1 color each, because once the Dolyaks had somewhere to go, each Dolyak seemed to get its own massive zerg assigned to it running non-stop, leaving little to no room for an organized guild who wanted to play for points to all gather on the same map.

We essentially have the same thing going on right now, with massive zergs flipping everything in sight, and asking people NOT to upgrade, siege, or defend anything, because they want to lose each point so they can come back and flip it again. But even this is less disheartening than seeing nearly the entire que for a map walking dolyaks in day after day.

If they can figure out a way to prevent this kind of abuse, however, I’d LOVE to see people being better rewarded for actually working on things that help the server, such as upgrading, repairing, and so forth. I’d also like to see the tag-based reward system reversed somewhat; currently, WvW gives greater rewards based on the number of people involved, such as giving MORE points to s large group killing a Dolyak than you would get for killing the same Yak with a small group (or solo). This really should be fixed, so that a Dolyak always gives the same number of points when killed, or gives more points based on how small the group is; example- 10 points for soloing a Dolyak, but only 1 point for killing it with a group or 10 or more. Right now it’s the opposite of this; currently you get 10 points if 10 people tag a Yak, but only 1 point if you solo it, so groups smaller than 10 are actually penalized, and hurt their server by costing them potential points.

Killing a Dolyak doles out 1 point per person involved in the kill. That’s right, if you SOLO a Dolyak, you are actually LOSING POINTS & hurting your server in this game; you were SUPPOSED to kill Dolyaks as part of a 10-man team according to the rules set down by Anet!

This makes absolutely no sense at all, that you would get BONUS POINTS for bringing tons of people to kill a Dolyak instead of doing it the (arguably) harder way, by sneaking into enemy territory and soloing it. So for those of you hoping for an end to the zerg-friendly nature of WvW, don’t hold your breath. Even the simplest rules such as this are designed to PENALIZE you for running in any group smaller than 10.

Eh, Thief, Rogue, etc classes have often had some kind of ability like GW2’s “Stealth”. This goes back to the Rogue class in Dungeons & Dragons, who had abilites like “Hide”, Sneak Attack", and so on. The BIG difference in GW2 is that stealth can be used to 100% invisibility with no consequences; in nearly every other game, characters who hide, sneak, or use similar abilities have their movements restricted, their movement speed lowered considerably, or are unable to perform certain actions while “sneaking”. True “Invisibilty” abilities like in GW2 were usually reserved for the spell-casting classes. So the Thief class being able to just go completely invisible and move around and take any actions they normally would is something pretty new to major MMO’s, which is probably what’s frustrating a lot of people in pvp/WvW. If Thieves had been programmed to lose any Swiftness and move at -50% normal speed while in stealth, there wouldn’t have been anywhere near the amount of QQ that we’ve seen on this subject so far.

I’m also in T1 (Blackgate) and I have to say, I kind of like the “mega-zerg” thing that’s going on now. For the last few weeks I’ve usually had to watch out for 3-4 groups of 20+, and usually 1 group of 30-40, all roaming around the same maps. Now, entire servers seem to be balled up in giant 80-man zergs, so as long as you avoid them the rest of the map is there for the taking! I’ve already soloed my way to Rank 5 in just a few hours.

EDIT: I just want to add that this was done on a Thief AFTER the 4-second “Stealth Nerf” came out, and the end of Culling, AND with the “Hidden Killer” trait being 100% broken since the patch! The “easy-button” Thief build has essentially been turned off completely by Anet, and honestly, I say good riddance.

I don’t care if the Jumping Puzzles exist or not, but they SHOULD NOT COUNT TOWARDS MAP QUES!!! Move them somewhere off the map, or make it so that people have to go into WvW the same way they do now, but have them enter another instance (like Dungeons) when they enter the Jumping Puzzles. Just please, PLEASE, absolutely remove the Jumping Puzzles from anything related to our WvW que times!!!

This idea is actually not that bad…

Yeah, Voice Chat is going to be important for WvW or sPvP. I came to GW2 from a game where Voice Chat was used, but not really important, and while I may PvE in GW2 without even logging in to TeamSpeak sometimes, I rarely if ever go into WvW without using TeamSpeak.

Also, there are a lot of great, very organized guilds doing WvW, many of them very tactical in nature whether they have numbers at the time or not. I really hate to say this, but a lot of the best organization does happen on Sea of Sorrows server, though you can find great WvW guilds on just about every server.

When looking for a WvW guild, check out their website to see what kind of organization they have, if they do a lot of theorycrafting on zerg tactics, or if it’s a lot of small-group tactics (or sometimes no tactics, really.) Check on reset (Friday, 7pm EST, NA times) to see if the guild has people lined up in Lion’s Arch, waiting to get in and tear the other two servers a new one or not. And don’t look at numbers to judge a guild, but percentages; a 100 member guild that regularly brings 30-40 people to resets is more impressive than a 500 member guild that brings 50, if you’re looking to run with a set of regulars, and not a different guild zerg every week.

Anyway, get the ability to use Voice Chat, even if it means just listening at first if you don’t have a mic. And good luck in search for a WvW home!

C’mon SoR, pick it up! A lot of us in Tier 1 are rooting for you!
(^_^)