Lux dude your joke was bad really… —’
We stopped gw1 3/4years ago.2) No korean own server but game is released yeah..
3) No we quit Gw2 4 months ago and no come back for a while. Sometimes we log on. We are actually waiting for next games as Neverwinter or Black desert online.
4) wot is a mmofps so… Sc2 or gw aren’t same gameplay…
5) Some WM guys i know stopped gw2 for same reason as It’s not competitive as they wanted to. Same for iQ,iB,EW,rawr,LuM,… said to the top.
6)# of koreans Decrease
There are custom arens now; you guys NEED TO come back and show us how to really play this game!
I love playing with and against (shatter)Mesmers, it’s a very tricky char in Duels and a MU you really have to practise and study.
Illusions don’t confuse me at all, ppl make it easy distinguishing themselves from the Illusions.
In bigger Teamfights, it’s another story though….
only lvl 1’s with 1000+ hours played….. I HATE playing PvE…..
Found sth. cool:
Is the game out in korea?
I think so….
Otherwise LastOfMaster couldn’t have streamed it unless he wasn’t in Korea, which I kinda doubt. And this even was several Months ago.
Captain Danjang, SoulWedding and LastOfMaster (Of “The last Pride [EvIL]”) actually played some GW2, but almost no sPvP. LastOfMaster even streamed quite a lot, but when he actually went to play some sPvP, he was like under rank10. ^^’
The Last Pride got sponsored by AZUBU though and they even made a Website dedicated to them and GW2 which stated, that they will start playing once all the necessary Features are in Place. But maybe 2-3 months ago or so, there was a Headline that former Starcraft and Starcraft 2 Progamer “NaDa” and some guys of “The last Pride” were going to start playing World of Tanks together. I heard that this endeavour was a failure though, so maybe, MAYYYYBEEEEE The Last Pride and even NaDa, might start playing GW2, if they really stopped playing WoT and they like how PvP has evolved in GW2.
I know nothing about War Machine though….
In terms of other Asian Guilds, I know that most of “Supernova Jpn [SpNv]” were actually playing, but I haven’t seen them streaming for a while.
The European Guilds aren’t too active as well. I have some of the old Players from Teams like Bruderschaft der Verdammnis, Peace and Harmony, Esoteric Warriors, Storm Bearers etc. on my FL, but most of them haven’t logged in for months…
(edited by PowerBottom.5796)
No. I think sPvP and tPvP are a distillation of the worst in gw2 players. It’ too bad this portion of the playerbase gets any kind of consideration from the developers.
Never, have I seen a group of more ethically corrupt video game players. This makes Xbox Call of Duty players look like boy scouts.
Well, of course ppl are more likely to BM and trakittenalk in PvP, because you don’t walk hand in hand through wonderland and search for treasure together and craft each other Pies… -.-°
Don’t worry guys, thats a normal Part of Online-Games. ^^’
Still nowhere near as bad as my personal “king of BM-Game” Heroes of Newearth: Never did I hear such a vast array of exquisite Insults fired off in a faster succession than in this game; it’s truly amazing. :P
So instead of adding to my post you create your own where you don’t actually propose any sort of game, just “things that need to be done”
I don’t think cap points are a good idea for GvG; we already have those in sPvP.
you talk too much about “mindless zerg”; have you played wvw on any higher tier server using voice comm with your guild?
Uhm, I made this Thread ~3 days ago….
Capping points may not be everyones favourite Game-Mode, but I simply think it still could be used to make a solid PvP-Mode. I’m not necessarily all for it, but if done right, I’m not against it as well.
Btw, compared to how organized GvG was in GW1 during it’s prime, even what we now see from Top-Teams could be considered mindless zerging. ^^’
There is still looong ways to go in terms of positioning, support, spiked DPS, coordinated CC etc. Simply because it’s not as needed as in GW1, ppl seem to neglect it heavily. But as soon as we get Guilds of the caliber of former War Machine, The Last Pride etc. those things will become a necessity.
I still hope The Last Pride [EvIL] quit this horrible World of Tanks and start to play GW2 again together with NaDa (yes, THE NaDa from SC:BW is currently playing WoT together with the Last Pride. Yes, THE “the Last Pride”)
I think you don’t understand what “GvG” means….
It’s not a mode where entire guilds battle each other, it’s a highly structured game-mode (it was 8v8 in GW1, which should be the absolute highest limit of Players) between two Guilds. It had multiple Maps, objectives, a Ladder and the best games could be observed ingame by the Public.
It is nothing like some ppl out there think; it’s NOT simply a Mode where entire WvW-Style guilds can duke it out.
as someone who played 7000 hours in gw1 with a significant portion of that in gvg, i think i know what gvg is. And gvg in gw2 could have everything you described.
As sm1 that played in Top-20 to Top-50 GvG Teams in the World, I think I know what GvG is as well. ^^’
What you described wouldn’t be anything like GvG, but a mindless, confusing and uncoordinated mess, mostly because of the Number of Players. You simply can’t get higher than 8 per Team in a Game like GW2 (and I can’t think of a concept where more then 8 Players per Team woudl work), when you are trying to go for a balanced and core sPvP Game-type.
Won’t work. You could just rush the enemy lord. Not being able to actually heal makes it impossible to keep the lord alive.
Also, if it’s just a couple “splitters” on lord, you can’t really do much about it except send the equal number back to defend and hope you can kill them. You can’t really send a healer to defend and save the lord.
It won’t work.
Wow, you give up quickly: How about simply making the Lord more tanky? And make it necessary to kill off NPC’s to make him regenerate health slower and have less HP or sth. like that.
Not being able to heal the Lord definitely doesn’t make this game mode obsolete, you jsut have to come up with a solution….. -.-°
8v8 would be so different now on the gw1 maps, I imagine something like 1 flag runner, 2 base attackers/defenders/ and 5 in a main battle group. Then different variations of that.
on the Maps now, I’d say that 8v8 would be too much…. Probably either 5v5 or 6v6 could be good…. on bigger Maps with bigger Nodes and more open Areas around the Nodes, 8v8 could potentially work as well.
Ya the Assasin really changed the metagame because it had teleports. Before that we had… necrotic transversal.
Just about every melee weapon set has a gap closer. Some ranged sets have a gap opener. Kiting works in GW2 but it has nothing to do with positioning. Your team doesn’t punish them for being over extended and out of range of their black line. lol.
Nah it’s just running around in a circle so you stay close to the point, the teams eventually sort of merge into a mixed blob. The team who’s ‘back line’ is best able to scrap has a pretty big advantage. Putting down a snare field is silly cause someone will spam a gap closer to ignore it.
Practically every melee weapon in this game has a gap closer. Ranged weapons usually have a gap opener. The result: You can kite 1v1. This mentality has an obvious problem when you get into a team situation.
Remember when cripple was a big deal instead of just getting auto removed, because there were like, cover conditions… and now you just spam conditions on people and remove all every x seconds.
Not overextending beyond the healrange of your Backline was but one aspect of Positioning and IMHO, Positioning is still one of the biggest Problems of even Top-Tier Guilds.
Often, If I watch streams, ppl are standing at places where they shouldn’t or don’t have to while balling up, not creating bigger distances between them and DD’s if they have to play defensively or not positioning themselves offensively when they need to. This makes it easier to hit them with AoE (and AoE that hits more than 1 Target is free DMG you don’t need to take) to pressure/spike them with Melee etc. Also, there are still classes with Heals that need to be in range of you to heal you, there are shouts etc.
Yes, it’s not as big a deal as in GW1, but this doesn’t mean you don’t have to perfect it. Again, it’s only the Maps and the laziness of some ppl that make Positioning so lackluster in GW2 atm.
There are still some heavily underused cripples that could be potentially useful in certain Team-setups and Maps. Mostly, I’m thinking about Caltrops, Glyph of elemental Power on Earth, the small Caltrops on Thief-dodge, Box of Nails etc. If you for example run a Melee-Warrior on a Map where kiting is possible (Foefire midpoint for example) crippling your target can literally double your pressure-DMG with a Warrior or other Melee-classes.
Things are just too squishy and no1 runs much good Teamsupport so we’ll be able to see stuff like that.
If we’d have a mid-fight on Foefire with a 4v4+ and no simple glasscannons, all those things mentioned above would be seen much more often, why? because it would be necessary and you couldn’t just spam Grenades or burst sth. down real quick.
ANet made it too easy for newbs to kill stuff, because they whine if they can’t mindlessly bash on a tank long enough without it going down. ^^’
(edited by PowerBottom.5796)
I think you don’t understand what “GvG” means….
It’s not a mode where entire guilds battle each other, it’s a highly structured game-mode (it was 8v8 in GW1, which should be the absolute highest limit of Players) between two Guilds. It had multiple Maps, objectives, a Ladder and the best games could be observed ingame by the Public.
It is nothing like some ppl out there think; it’s NOT simply a Mode where entire WvW-Style guilds can duke it out.
1) Positioning / Movement in GW2 suffers because everybody has access to at least one teleport. This makes positioning less of a tactical decision. Additionally, he PbAOE nature of many skills and the nature of ‘point control’ mode result in what I’m going to go ahead and call ‘no line’ combat — where everybody has to be set up to brawl in melee and an epic Frenzy + Heal Sig behind the enemies front line isn’t really epic or risky at all because… what’s a line?
2) Heh. I used to count the adrenaline charges so I could reversal an eviscerate or a final thrust. GW2 is too much of a cluster, and between position and cast times… I tried a staff ele back when your rolls could be blast finishers on water fields. I tried playing a support. Those heals just didn’t go far enough to keep your glass up. Cool downs and cast times, cool downs and cast times.
4) Ya reaction time is still there, more than ever really.
1) Okay, lot’s of Chars have teleports, but in GW1, Teams had 2 Melee classes most of the time, everything else was ranged. Often, there were even builds without Melees at all or with just one, or the Melees had Teleports on them (Warrior/Assa’s for example).
Yet, defensive Positioning was absolutely curcial, because besides the Spikes, you could avoid tons of pressure-DPS (making it harder for Warriors to Target-switch, because there was a bigger walking-distance in between) and of course avoiding AoE-DMG was important as well. Also, staying out of range of certain classes is crucial and all those Aspects could be important for GW2 as well, if the Maps weren’t so horribly restricting.
Even with defensive teleports, Positioning is important, because you don’t want to use up your Teleport, which is a Stunbreaker, because of bad Movement, but to counter Spikes.
If you are playing aggressively, teleports are basically a non-issue, because almost no class besides the Thief uses Teleports offensively and on the squishy Thief, offensive teleports are IMHO okay.
And yes, the current Maps together with the restricting Points don’t make for great Movement, but that’s again almost fully the fault of the Map-Design. Holding Points could actually reward good Positioning greatly, because there is one additional Aspect that GW1 didn’t have: keeping always 1 Member on the Point, not more, not less. So ppl have to position themselves if your Nodeholder might get knocked out, to hold the point until he’s back on it.
But if you are talking about strong PbAoE, why would you then suggest balling up on the Point? I think you’d want to NOT have many Players balled up against AoE.
solo-PvP
Message Body length must at least be 15.
Too bad the “s” stands for “structured”, as in premade Teams…
All zynicism aside: Of course they should split up Solo-q and premades and make seperate Ladders, but you’d have to think that ANet is totally oblivious if you assume that they don’t know about this Problem and are currently working on a solution.
I would be happy to see ‘clears a condition every 10 seconds’ crap go. Could you make a skill more boring and braindead than this? Entirety of Mesmers excluded.
I don’t even know how they work exactly….
1) Do they trigger every 10 seconds and remove a condition even if there’s no condition on you at all?
2) Do they only trigger when you have a condition on you?
3) When exactly does the trigger “reset”? For example: I’m in the 10-second window (like at second 5) where I haven’t cleaned a condition with the Trait yet and I get one on me and it gets removed, do I have to w8 10 seconds now because the trigger reset, or 5 seconds until the next trigger is ready?
This makes quite a huge difference IMHO!
But yeah, passives like that are just so random and require no skill and ANet should move away of them. Simply connecting them to a dodge or a skill etc. just makes it that much less volatile and more skill-dependant.
I’m not mentioning the removal of healers because I think it doomed the game.
I’m mentioning it because it’s a good example of this development team’s decision making. They weighed a solid success against their desire to be unique, and they opted for unique. It’s like they were trying too hard to be innovative and so they made triangular wheels.
I don’t believe these people failed to respond to good ideas like yours because they had too much to deal with already. They failed to respond to good ideas like yours because they didn’t think of it themselves and they’ve got some sort of napoleon complex which compels them to prove to the world what geniuses they are. But much like George Lucas, they just aren’t — and we’re left to notice the changes in staff between GW1 Prophecies and this.
I kind of want to have copies of the Prince mailed to them all.
Well, I guess you’re clearly frustrated with ANet and you think good sPvP needs Healers or sth. similar to them. I personally like what kind of skills it required to be a Healer and I think if there are builds that require similar skillsets, it could be fun. But this can also be achieved without clearly designated Healers, but can work with various different classes:
Let’s take the Ele for example and how he could be played very similarly to a Healer in GW1
1) Positioning/Movement was extremely important as a Healer and it was also necessary that the Frontline didn’t overextend and run out of the Healers range. Sometimes the Healer needed to push forward, but sometimes, it would’ve just resultet in a Kill. It was also important to stay out of range of certain Classes like Warriors.
—> This could IMHO factor in even more in GW2, because there are certain interesting Support/Heal Skills that require you to be near your Teammate (Cleansing Wave and the CW on dodge) and there are skills that get much more effective with good Positioning (Water Trident)
2) Awareness of whats happening in a Teamfight and reacting appropriately: Anticipating Spikes, anticipating possible CC on the Healer itself etc.
—> Again this skillset could come into play in GW2 as well: The Metagame could evolve easily to a point where everything is tanky enough so everyone HAS to do coordinated spikes, it’s even often the case in the current Meta, so anticipating spikes is very important: one good Heal, CC or Blind can often safe a Teammate. There are also some good CC-Effects that could hinder you from doing what you want, so it’s important to know how much Adrenaline a Warrior has and to see when he’s trying to attack you or another Player.
3) Fast Reaction-time: This is basically a given in GW2, with all the dodges, insta-stunbreakers and some very fast burst-combos.
4) Knowing how to play in certain situations (more aggressive or more defensive). In GW1, the Monk could actually deal lots of (very) indirect DMG: He could heavily heal the Frontline and let them play very aggressive and/or spend Mana to cleanse them from Conditions/Hexes to allow them to do full DMG. But when your Backline is falling apart, there’s really no reason to spend mana on getting rid of Blind, movement-impairing Hexes/Conditions etc. on your Frontline and you quickly have to spend you mana very defensively and just keep stuff alive.
—> This can also be applied to GW2 if you play a Support/Tank Ele of any kind: Do I just dodge, kite and heal myself up, or do I CC stuff and spend more time casting DPS-Spells rather than healing and running?
IMHO, to almost fully utilize the Potential of the Ele and certain other classes like the Guardian that could be potential Healers and/or Heavy Supporters, they just need to increase the Healing onto your Teammates a bit and reduce the Healing on yourself, so they won’t just create an Über-Tank or at least give the people an opportunity to play a Char this way.
One way to do so could be to create a New Amulett that had stats or either Valk, Cleric or Shaman with the simple addition: Healing on your Teammates increased by 33% (or sth. like that) and Healing on yourself decreased by 33% (this would be fair IMHO in the current Game-Mode).
Also, there are some quite interesting Skills on other classes, that could be so fun and useful if they got a buff, like:
- Healing Breeze and Orb of Light on the Guardian
- Restorative Illusions on Mesmer (maybe give it some kind of AoE-Heal to make it a viable Support-Spell with the Healing either emenating from the Mesmer or the where the Shatter effectively takes place)
- tons of Blast/Leap finishers that could be geared more towards support. Like on Water they could only heal your Teammates, but for more.
Now if sth. like this happened (and the stuff mentioned really isn’t impossible to implement, it would IMHO be quite easy) what exactly do Healers miss in GW2 then, compared to GW1?
Funny how you make your Thread about sPvP, but then talk about Solo-q….
Can everyone plz stop spamming this Thread with hatefueled nonsense?
This Thread should be a sign of hope, a celebration of things to come!
@BLU:
You’re doing a great Job and I hope you’ll keep it up, but here is one suggestion:
- It’s basically impossible for an active Caster to organize Events, set everything up, cast up to several hours a day and still be a Top-Tier Player. Now I don’t say that Casters aren’t good at the games they cast and they should truly do their best to improve in the game and play on a high level, but they’ll most likely never have as much insight into the game as a Top-Tier Player.
Also, people love hearing Top-Players cast, not only because of their knowledge, but because they get to know them from another Angle and they can bask in the glorious amounts of Knowledge those Players possess.
So, here’s my Suggestion: As many times as possible, get a Top-Player to cast with you, this doesn’t need to be every cast, but I guarantee you that if sm1 like Teldo (or any1 else from TP) or other Top-Players (Crs, IDL, CN etc.) co-cast with you, it’ll jsut put the cast on another level.
Also, if you just have a few contacts of top-players, they can basically just hop in on Skype or whatever when there’s nothing else going on for them, so there’s much less time-commitment involved on their side.
Another Point that’s very important to me is:
Use Team-Colors: Really, the game is confusing enough for anyone that isn’t playing it on a high level, being able to easily identify which Char belongs to which Team just does so much to lessen that confusion and to make things easier to identify.
They should replace Kyhlo then with this map. Nobody needs 2 maps with trebuchet especially if they don’t let us chose maps in tournament and force us to play each map for 3-4 days.
Makes us only wait 3-4 days longer until our favorite maps will be back once this map makes it into rotation(I hope it won’t or they’ll really replace Kyhlo).
Or the treb icon is representing something other than a trebuchet and they don’t have a proper new icon yet? I would like some gates and switches and stuff like that you need to control. Would be much more interesting than playing WvW sieges with 5 vs. 5.
Hell no! Kyhlo is great and theres a HUGE difference between 2 Trebs and 1 Treb I can imagine. It’ll likely play out very differently!
Besides, they simply need to make random Map-rotation where you can downvote 1-2 Maps, theres absolutely no way around it and I hope ANet has already realized it and is working on a Solution.
1) It would be confusing, especially for spectators
2) DMG would get way out of Hand
3) AoE would be too Powerful
4) There is already WvW for those big types of fights1) Who cares about spectators? Again that eSports crap? Then take 2 or 3 experienced spectators each observing a different part of the map like in sports in TV and let them broadcast it and explain to other persons watching.
2) + 3) If you can make a map that needs players to be at different locations. Of course the usual capture + zerg mid node + zerg bosses / npcs won’t help here. Then I agree. It would be tons of people at one point zerging and too much damage and AoE.
But if you need to be at 2-3 locations at the same time(maybe some switches to open some door) the enemy needs to do the same or at least try to stop you.
4) WvW is much bigger. 3 teams and more like 40-50 people at least in the higher tiers… or even more.
1) Being a good Spectator-Sport is absolutely essential for e-Sports and the e-Sport-potential is again heavily linked to the longevity of successful PvP. I doubt you’ll find anyone saying that 8 isn’t very likely to be the highest Team-number imaginable for successful structured e-Sport.
There needs to be a clear differentiation between WvW and structured PvP and the Team-size is simply one very curcial Aspect.
Now do I say that 20v20 shouldn’t be possible at all – of course not: The more Modes the better, but ANet clearly needs to focus on sth. around a core Game-Mode for PvP with sth. like 5-8 Players. They can’t make Maps balanced around 20v20, they can’t balance Skills in PvP around it etc.
Although, the Maps that I envision for PvP in the future should definitely be better for 20v20 than the ones we have now – much wider, bigger and more Open.
2+3) Agreed, on sth. like for example an old GW1 GvG-Map, I could see Teams of 10 and higher be kinda funny, but it wouldn’t be a smart Idea to make it the Focus and the main game-mode, it’s just unpractical for competetive e-Sport in so many ways.
4) Well, there is at least the possibility for Custom Arenas with 10v10 afaik and maybe in the future, we will see even bigger Maps and a higher Number of Players per Team as a possibility in CA’s, but I’m pretty sure you see why this can’t really work as the main PvP-Mode, right?
Can the Devs come out and confirm that they are just giving all of us GW1 fans the finger and saying thanks for your moneies, now go away?
Or can they do better and come out and say : we’re developing a game type inspired by GW1 and it won’t require you to throw more money at a company you probably don’t have any more faith in?
Cause… I still want my AAA Esport PvP… and they really pretty nearly had that in GW1 if their team sizes were just smaller… so they scrapped everything they had that was good and went for something new, and bad.
If GW1 would’ve had a smaller Team-Size, it would’ve been nothing like what it was: The whole thing why it worked was based around Teams of 8. Why do you think they realized that fast that 6v6 AdH was just not working and reset it back to 8v8 in no time?
Also, everything you mentioned will get better with time: They said that they want to add sth. like GvG and with CA’s and spectator-mode, we already see a big improvement in sPvP – Players and Teams are coming back to play, we see shoutcasters that spectate Matches, the Twitch.tv Numbers are way higher etc.
Just be patient, young Padawan! ^^’
@KarlaGrey: Random Arena better than GW2? Are you serious? RA and TA was a joke, GW1 doesn’t work with anything less than 8 Players per Team (and with more than 8 neither)
How many Teams are using:
- Warrior Warhorn with Quick Breathing?
- Warrior Shouts with Runes of the Soldier?
- Shattered Conditions on Mesmer?
- Null Field on Mesmer?
- Plague Signet on Necro?
- Cleansing Water on any Ele builds besides Full-Tank?
- Staff Ele with Healing Rain?
- Ranger Pet “Brown Bear”?
There are still so many Condition-removals not being used on Popular classes and there are tons of Classes not being played that have insane Anti-Condition-Support.
So@Topic: No, good Anti-Condition isn’t that easy to achieve for most classes, but as long as we don’t see a need to implement some of the above mentioned Support, Conditions really can’t be that hard to deal with either.
It’s also not a bad thing that certain classes have a harder time getting rid of Conditions, because to a certain extent, there should be builds that can hard-counter other builds/classes.
IMHO, there is no need to temper with Conditions overall atm…
@KarlaGrey:
In the current sPvP Game-Mode, 8v8 would most likely be not a very good Idea. In my Post, I stated that maybe 8v8 could sth. we can think about when we have sth. very similar to GvG, which means bigger Maps, bigger Areas where ppl fight etc. I also stated, that for the current Game-Modes, 5v5 OR 6v6 would probably be the best Option, but we’d simply have to try it and find out if 6v6 is viable on the current Maps.
@ryston:
The Problem before was that ANet knew exactly what they had to do for PvP: Leaderboards, Custom Arenas, spectator Mode, balancing etc. and Ideas could’ve been absolutely genius, but the above mentioned Issues were too pressing; there was simply no time for anything else. Now ANet has a bit more breathing room, so I think it’s a good time to make a Post like this.
Also, the Poster above you mentioned that GW1 was ahead of it’s time and instead of doing exactly what GW1 was with better Graphics, they again went in another Direction with a more action-oriented Gameplay, no dedicated Healers etc.
I also really don’t think that having no dedicated Healers makes it harder to be a good e-Sports Title. Besides, they could easily buff the Support of some classes or change them so they become more similar to a Healer.
It’s about having different Roles for the Characters that require good Teamwork and individual Skill to fullfill correctly, I really don’t care if the specific Skillset of a Healer in GW1 isn’t used to that extent in GW2, if the overall required Skill to play the Game isn’t diminished.
20 vs 20 at least. What kind of guild have only 8 players?
Anything beyond 8 Players would be unviable, because:
1) It would be confusing, especially for spectators
2) DMG would get way out of Hand
3) AoE would be too Powerful
4) There is already WvW for those big types of fights
8 is clearly the highest possible Teamsize for truly structured and e-Sport-worthy PvP and that is what GvG is.
UUUUH – I like the 1 Treb!
Should be a pretty important focal-point for fights.
yepp – Anet give him a Hand, he’s doing good Stuff for your Game!
Yepp, it’s still on 25 second CD with Signet Mastery. For the other Signets, it seems to work though.
That is a great idea, next time I will try and include everything. I don’t do any of the streaming, that was all BLU and Fixi, but if they don’t mind, I will probably start doing reviews and analysis. I would love to see this game turned into a competitive Esport.
Cool!
I think it’s important that new People just get slapped in the Face with a sticky Thread with tons of e-Sport content when they visit this subforum, cuz we mean business in terms of e-Sport! ^^’
IMHO, Foefire is by far the best Map, but other Maps like Kyhlo are still more popular, but here’s why Foefire is the best one:
- Biggest Node in the Middle with a rather open area which allows for the most balanced and exciting Teamfights.
- The Side-nodes are also quite decent and nowhere near as bad as for example Henge. The areas are again quite open.
- The Distance between the side-nodes and Middle are quite good IMHO, because they are short enough to make ppl consider not running a Portalmesmer in every Teamcomp, but they are long enough to not completely disregard the Portal.
- With just a little bit of tweaking to the secondary Objective (like more NPC’s with more Health, but an instant Matchwin if you kill the Guild-Lord), we could actually have sth. with a very good secondary objective that would remind ppl of the good ol’ GW1-days.
- Because of the more open Areas, it lends itself better to expermimentation with 6v6 or 8v8-Formats, because who’s really gonna go into a midfight on Maps like Kyhlo or Nilfhel etc. with Larger Teams: the Movement and positioning is just so restricted, that it’ll be just a spamfest of AoE-Ranged attacks…
Hooray for Foefire!
Cool!
I think we could even make a bigger Thread out of this, sth. like a “Match-report” which could include:
- VoD’s of current Matches
- Builds
- Maybe a short recap about what Maps were played, which games are most worthy to be watched etc.
If you wish for more team matches, you seriously need to consider banning certain professions (I’m looking at you, mesmer). It’s stupid in 3v3 already when each team has 1 or 2 of those. How can you possibly imagine a 6v6 or more with several mesmers around?
Well, that’s not a really good solution though, is it?
And yes, Mesmers are strong in certain Teamfight-Situations, but mostly in 2v2’s or 3v3’s. If There are more Players than that, the fact that the Mesmer needs to be kinda close to a Target to do real DMG and the fact that he’s rather squishy, make him an easy Target when it comes to 4v4+ Scenarios.
So if you have sth. in a Teamfight that can pressure the backline (any kind of AoE when the Mesmer is standing back pressuring with his ranged Weapon and preparing for a Spike), you can keep him on so low HP, that he can’t really go in for a kill that easily.
Also, the 6v6-Format probably wouldn’t create even more team setups with a more limited number of classes, especially not Mesmers, cuz you just need 1 Mesmer for the Portal, but not many Teams would take more than 1 IMHO, which leaves space for another Char that they couldn’t take before. But we just would have to test out what 6v6 or 8v8 would do in regards to only picking certain classes. Also, with a larger Number of Players, Support gets more important and there’s a better possibility for Support-builds being picked, because the number of Players is increased. So Support becomes more important AND theres a better chance that you have room in your Team for it!
(edited by PowerBottom.5796)
Map design is a huge problem, but not in just the way you mentioned. On points like henge, you don’t know if someone is on it unless you’re standing on it as well. You can’t see in or out of this point, which means you can’t tell if a second person is coming to attack you until they’ve hit you with a bunch of buttons. This obtrusive design also means that if you want to decap henge, you have to walk pretty far towards it to even see if there’s someone guarding it. There’s an added problem on points like this with stealth, if you decide to be a big boy and move more than spell range away from the point it’s going get decapped.
True datt! ^^’
Even though it’s a different Problem, it could be solved by the same actions as solving the ones mentioned by me: Larger and more open spaces with less obstacles and other shenannigans, especially on the Nodes, because thats where most Teamfights will take place.
The Layout of the Nodes is just too restricting, so ANet: “TEAR DOWN THOSE WALLS!”
being rank1 in US is like being the best Team in the WNBA – it says nothing about your skill compared to MEN – EU in this clever Metaphor. ^^
#EUISBETTER
So what exactly does this mean for GW2? Let’s recap the Points I’ve made and try to give a simple suggestion on how it could be implemented in GW2 or how we can tackle the Issue to come up with a good Solution:
Multiple goals and ways to achieve them
Anet should just toy around with the secondary Objectives a bit more: Make them more important compared to Node-Control and come up with some interesting new ones.
It could also be possible to try and simply convert the whole GvG-Mode with it’s Maps to GW2, but if you’ve read what I’ve been talking about above, this is not a necessity to get a good game-mode for GW2, but it’s one way for sure.
Teamfights
In GW2, there is IMHO a lack of long, engaging Teamfights and it’s IMHO where basically all the things talked about factor in: It’s about finding the right team-size, about bigger Nodes, bigger Maps with more open Areas in places that Teamfights will happen etc.
Because I really do think that GW2 could offer great Teamfights, even without dedicated Healers. I can see having to use the same amount and types of skills I needed in GW1, so the Problem is not on the classes, the gameplay etc. but on other factors.
The Maps
One of the biggest Problems IMHO… If you have a tiny Node where ppl can stand above you and just spam down AoE, it doesn’t really ask for great Teamplay and positioning – it’s just boring and stupid. ^^’
Also, Kiting and positioning get a non-Issue when you have to stand on the Point and the opponent can just barrel down on you with ranged-attacks. Even if Teamfights on certain Nodes happen, it’s basically about 1 guy standing on the point and the other ones spamming stuff on top of it. The Layout of some Nodes is especially horrible:
Mid-Node on Kyhlo:
tiny Node and if you fall down, you need to walk around to get up again, this means the Node is even more restricting, because you literally can’t get off the Node for a Milisecond (because you’ll fall off the Node and loose precious times or CD’s to get up there again). Then, there are the holes and balconies where ppl can spam stuff in, there is no place for kiting and little room for positioning, because the outer balconies are so small, because you can’t shoot in from everywhere etc. It’s just a horrible horrible Mess if you are looking for good Teamfights.
Mid-Node on Nilfhel:
Again a tiny Node, again hard to reach spaces on top where ppl can spam down mindlessly and again a very restrictive Area where the backline can fight, because it’s just such a narrow Space.
So here’s where I strongly urge ANet to try the next new Map, almost non-dependant on the secondary Objectives, that you’ll try one with at least a Big Mid-Node again, maybe even one with big side-Nodes as well, but just at least an open Area around the Nodes.
The perfect Team-Size of 8 Players
To find the right Number of Players, GW2 basically did all they had to with Custom Arenas for now. It’s now up to the community to try out 6v6 or 8v8 and see how it goes and if sth. Gets really popular and Tournaments start to be run in that format, maybe Anet could rethink the Parts beyond Custom Arenas, but thats a thing of the future.
What I urge all the Players though is, that they try out this stuff, get out of your comfort-zone playing with your 4 buddies (atm. this is expecially directed to the top-teams that atm. have access to the CA’s) and really try out 6v6 and 8v8 – theorycraft about it, make tournaments etc.
(edited by PowerBottom.5796)
The Maps
What I liked most about the Maps of GW1 that the current Maps in GW2 lack, is that they just were all around bigger and one of the most important parts is that they had wider spaces where the Teamfights happened most of the time. That’s also why I love Legacy of the Foefire that much: It’s actually the only Map with a big enough Node to make Teamfights on Nodes really interesting and much more about positioning, kiting and general Movement than on other Nodes. Also, other nodes have the Problem that often a Char can simply spam Ranged-attacks on the Node-defender and force him to basically leave the point, which is IMHO kinda silly.
The perfect Team-Size of 8 Players
As mentioned above, GW1 didn’t have a very action-oriented gameplay and it was actually pretty boring compared to GW2 in a Situation where there weren’t many people involved. The whole part where skill, positioning, map-awareness, reaction-time etc. came into play is because of the pretty big team-size. Still it wasn’t too big to make it confusing and hard to coordinate or where spiked-DMG would just get out of control – it was simply the best possible Team-size…. for GW1 that is!
IMHO, it’s not necessarily about the specific Size of 8, but about the fact that it was the right team-size for GW1. GW2 is a different game with more action-oriented gameplay and no dedicated Healers and all-around more versatile characters. But is 5 the right Team-size for sth. similar to GvG in GW2? I really don’t know for sure, but I think it will be somewhere around 5-8, depending on the size of the Maps. On the current Maps, I’d go for 5-6 People and I’d really want to try some 6v6 in Custom Arenas and see how it feels.
Hi@all,
Over the last months, there have been tons of Threads popping up about people wanting GvG in Guild Wars 2, yet, there seems to be no clear concept of what they actually want GvG to look like in GW2 and what they think is that made GvG such a good Game-Mode.
In this Thread, I want to talk about why GvG is such a good Concept for PvP and what exactly it is that made it so good that can actually be applied to GW2.
I played GW1 for years and I’ve played thousands of GvG’s in Top-20 to Top-50 Guilds in the World (Bruderschaft der Verdammnis [BdV] and Capita Cerberi [CC] are probably the most recognizable ones) and for me, there are several Parts about what is essential for a good Game-Mode like GvG.
Multiple Goals and Multiple ways to achieve those goals
In GvG, you could win the game in multiple ways, you could:
1) Go for Flagcontrol and a strong Teamfight-capability
2) Win by raiding the base of the opponent to either kill the Guild Lord or gain an NPC-advantage at “Victory or Death”.
3) You could outmaneuver the opposing team by splitting your team in favourable ways and force them to split.
Teamfights with clear roles and the necessity for coordinated Teamplay
What GW1 lacked compared to GW2 was a very complex and smooth fight-mechanic: There was no dodging, hell, there wasn’t even jumping and most skills were simple “target enemy – press skill”, it truly wasn’t nearly as exiting as GW2 in that aspect. But oh boy did GW1 make up for it by some of the best Teamplay-possibilities I’ve ever seen. There was an absolute necessity for perfect coordination and execution of your Build in order to even be able to kill sth. against a strong Backline. People complain about tanks in GW2, but if they’d ever have to try and kill sth. in GW1 against a good Backline with decent support, they wouldn’t be able to get a target below 50% health with all that mindless zerging and bashing we see in GW2 (I basically only see good coordination in the Top-Teams, but it quickly drops to an uncoordinated mess. ^^’)
Playing mostly Backline, I had to keep an Eye on most of the 16 Players on the Field: I had to know where my ppl are standing, where they’ll stand in a second and position myself accordingly while also watching out for my positioning compared to the opponent.
A good Monk had to always see in which direction the Mesmers and Rangers are looking and keep track of CD’s, because one good Interrupt or Diversion (Hex that stayed on you for 6 seconds or until you cast a spell and if you cast a spell, it’s recast was increased by about a Minute) could literally make your backline crumble.
And as an Infuser, I had to know what the next Target of the spike may be and react within under a quarter of a second, so I had to anticipate, read the movement of the other Team and see where they are facing (If 3-4 ppl suddenly cast sth. and face in the same direction and you see the Melee’s running, it’s of course a dead giveaway, but not every team made it that easy for the Backline).
And each and every role of a Team was as demanding and interesting to play but the whole thing only worked, when everyone of the Team worked together, coordinated spikes and varied their Teamplay depending on the situation.
Completely revamp Frenzy to a much much shorter CD. Frenzy shouldn’t be balanced around the CD, it just becomes an extremely volatile effect that will probably only really be used to rez/kill downed players, because every Char has Stunbreakers more often than the War can possibly dish out his Frenzy. It gets to a point where it’s simply a matter of: “can I get lucky and my opponent doesn’t have a defensive CD rdy” And if you play against a Warrior, you’ll simply hold on to the necessary CD’s when there’s a chance that he’ll be roaming to you.
So what to do?
- reduce CD to 20 seconds , but make the Quickness shorter and the Drawback a longer Duration.
It’s funny how you complain that every char has a more stun breaker than you can frenzy, and proceed to give the Warrior a 20s CD stun break skill :p If you reduce Frenzy CD to 20s, it’ll have to lose it’s stun breaker properties.
it’s funny how you can’t seem to read properly….
How is it possibly a step in the wrong direction?
- Burst Mastery is actually awesome. And I mean Really, really really awesome!
- Dogged March is decent, but the best part about it IMHO was the regen, if it was like double the amount….
- Frenzy got better like all the other Utilities; definitely the right direction
- Signets got better, also right direction.
Here’s my Warrior Wishlist though
Completely revamp Frenzy to a much much shorter CD. Frenzy shouldn’t be balanced around the CD, it just becomes an extremely volatile effect that will probably only really be used to rez/kill downed players, because every Char has Stunbreakers more often than the War can possibly dish out his Frenzy. It gets to a point where it’s simply a matter of: “can I get lucky and my opponent doesn’t have a defensive CD rdy” And if you play against a Warrior, you’ll simply hold on to the necessary CD’s when there’s a chance that he’ll be roaming to you.
So what to do?
- reduce CD to 20 seconds , but make the Quickness shorter and the Drawback a longer Duration.
Really, it would be so awesome to see Teams handle a Warrior and how the Warrior uses it’s Frenzy, because it would be a constant battle between more DPS dished out, but received as well, it would make any teamfight with a Warrior so much more Dynamic.
IMHO, Frenzy should look like this:
Cooldown: 20 seconds
Quickness Duration: 2 Seconds
Frenzy-Duration (the Drawback-Part): 5 Seconds
and remove the Stunbreaker, Teammates should be able to stun a Warrior when they sniff out that he’s going in for a kill.
Also, for Gods sake take care of Brawn…. It’s a stupid Idea to begin with, cuz many Burst-Skills deal Condition-DPS; what about them? Just change it with sth. that fits the Warrior, like reduced Weapon-Swap, faster Adrenalin-gain or sth.
Next up is to remove the homing from heartseeker, and make them aim it.
I’d actually strongly support that…. it’s sooooooooo easy to land heartseeker…. Compare this to how hard it is to land Melee-Attacks with for example D/D-Ele. It would also stop mindless spamming…. They could even make the range on the leap a bit bigger, if the enemy could at least kite it a bit better.
well, if you don’t want people to see your precious builds that are so good and you are the only one that had the right Idea, then don’t allow spectators.
Revealing your playstyle, builds etc. is just a part of games like that.
Will anet ever stop? Their isn’t 1 thief build u can try that hasn’t been nerfed in some way.
That would be true even if the only thing nerfed was Trick-Shot, because literally every competetive Build uses the Shortbow…. This kinda says sth. about how strong the Shortbow actually is. ^^’
I’d actually go as far as to say that we never had a better balance than now in terms of classes with viable builds and we never had more viable builds per class! I love were the game is now!
If they simply focus the next patch on Skills/traits that are never used (there are soooo many that could easily be doubled in effectiveness), GW2 would be in an extremely good place IMHO.
Here are some traits they could look at:
Ele
- Rock-Solid (AoE-Stability is cool, but the investment of 30 into Earth-Magic is so huge, that it needs a biiiig buff to actually be even considered. I could see decent support-builds if it gave 3 sec of Stability and 3 sec of Protection)
- Written in Stone (same as above. I’d probably combine faster Signet cooldown and this one into one)
Warrior
- Physical Training (just bad…)
Necro
- Withering Precision (could be pretty interesting, but the proc-chance and duration is way too low. You should probably be able to at least keep it up on two ppl, so 33% proc-chance and at least 6 second duration)
Mesmer
- Mantras are still way too weak to be used
So? It’s Custom Arena’s, so it’s supposed to give you the option to play an overcrowded Zergfest! ^^’
nothing against thiefs, but this is how ALL projectiles work, its good it now affects thiefs too :P
True datt! ^^’
I play a lot of Ranger and even Longbow-Warriors and when I was testing out some Thief-builds, I didn’t even notice anything at all…
Besides, the Shortbow is so incredibly strong and always offers the Thief an extremely potent range-weapon, that the nerf definitely won’t make either Thiefs nor their Shortbow useless. It’s a nerf for sure, but it’s a reasonable one.
/agreed, especially when there is a discussion that’s clearly about sPvP and it get’s transferred to the seperate class-forums, which isn’t heavily visited by PvP’ers afaik.
@kostbabis & PowerBottom
I do agree the introduction to direct counters (thief boon-stealing you mentioned is a great one) has made things more difficult for bunker eles, but it will still take more than a solo thief to bring this build down, and that’s no different than pre-patch.
Even with the icd on cleansing water, most condition builds can still be cleansed safely. In the case of mass condition application from necros and engis, you could swap in cleansing flame or ether renewal + armor of the earth. It takes more resources, but imo no enough to shake the meta. If you look at the big picture, the most devastating condition builds wouldn’t just be trouble for eles, but for most other professions as well.
It is still too early to judge, but I don’t think the ele nerfs were going in the right direction in addressing the bunker issue. It just made things clunkier and less fun. I tried the same generic build in tpvp yesterday with the same strategy, and things were pretty much the same even with the big mechanical changes. Only necros gave me a lot more trouble, but that’s fair. I guess in time, we will see how effective this patch is in fixing the meta.
In a game like GW, there will always be certain Builds or combinations of Builds that are very strong if you don’t counter them, that’s part of the Metagame. It’s okay if sth. is strong and your team willingly didn’t play a counter to it; your team will probably handle other situations better.
But with the Thief and the slight nerfs, there at least is a strong counter to it, so lets see how the metagame evolves.
Bunker eles actually haven’t changed much in s/tPvP, because guess what? The nerfs complained incessantly on this forum focused on the wrong things like Rtl. Bunker eles post-patch have virtually the same sustain as before, even with the cleansing wave icd and mist form change. The only difference is that the bunker build is clunkier… that’s it. Dps eles were hit way harder and they’ve never been a problem in competitive play.
We will still see bunker eles in the Meta, and we will still have the same clueless yahoos complaining about the wrong things on why this 0/10/0/30/30 build is OP. Prepare for more whining, nerfs, and kitten flinging because there really hasn’t been any significant changes in metagame balance this patch.
That’s ridiculous.
- 20% less Healing on Signet (pretty huge)
- internal CD for Cleansing Water (More important than ppl think, cuz cantrip+switch to water removed 3 Condis, now it can only insta-remove 2)
- Mist Form Nerf (probably more important for other Ele-builds, cuz the Cantrip one can easily use cleansing burst or the teleport)
By far the biggest deal is the Larcenous Strike. 2 boons from you to the Thief without a chance to block or dodge (Infiltrators Strike ftw.) is actually incredibly deadly to this build.
So if you group together the Buffs on the Thief, the Nerf on the Ele itself and the fact that in sPvP, many Teams have already found decent counters to the Cantrip-Ele, it’s definitely not OP anymore.
It’ll probably be a Meta-game thing: It can be strong if not countered, so it just depends on what you or your opponent play and how well you can read the Metagame.
But yes, DPS-Eles got hit harder by all the nerfs and even the buffs to Thiefs etc.