- Playing with anonymous people (basically megaserver) means no community, which means no one cares about winning or losing.
this, this, and this some more. the cool thing about wvw is the community that is built from it. Server pride comes in and you band together with your server mates for the battle. I love jumping into wvw and seeing the familiar faces. Hop on server TS and fight for the matchup that week. It’s even more so during seasons (at least for me, i play the ppt game about half the time, makes it somewhat interesting). They can fix every single problem mentioned above in the other posts, but the fact is everyone still wouldn’t care. If they ever bring Megaservers to the core WvW game, well that will be my cue to leave the game.
Okay,
But then why do people still try to win in tPvP ? There’s no server-pride there.
Why do people make an effort for their group in a dungeon run? There’s no server-pride there.
Could the reasons people still make an effort in those scenarios, be translated into the ‘meaningless’ framework of WvW?
One of the big gripes is Cliffs, Cannons, and annoying buffs (Cold, Overgrowth-regen, Kodan-armour). Cliffs and bridges do bring some interest to a map, but IMO there are way way too many of them. So many chokes reduce nearly all fights to “meat-grinder forward”. There is little room for flanking manoeuvres or feigning retreats, no room for backline to kite melee. The few open spaces are covered by those atrocious, obnoxious cannons, which not only fire by themselves, but also repair themselves. Just….. urgh.
However, that feels like nit-picking. We’re happy enough to throw ourselves into the meat-grinder of garrison-watergate or SM lord-room for the sake of the server, so the fact that the terrain of EoTM isn’t great can’t really explain why the map is shunned.
Is the reality now that EoTM is an unnecessary map? The days of 2+ hour queues we saw in Season 1 are long gone. Even in Tier 1, a queue longer than 20 people is a rare sight. Is there no longer even enough PvP population left to populate EoTM? If EoTM were adjusted to be more PvP-friendly and rewarding to tactical-play, and if all the farmers/trains were removed, would the result be large-scale PvP in EoTM, or would the result be an empty map?
Just…. thinking out loud, to see if there is anything here that can be salvaged for our dying game-mode, and trying to be constructive rather than whining.
These days it’s nearly universally accepted by the WvW community that EoTM has not turned out to be the breath of fresh air we were hoping for to re-invigorate WvW. At best it’s a fun way to waste an hour or two between ‘proper’ WvW sessions. At worst, it’s a toxic PvD karma-train.
But why is it this way?
—————————————
I’m going to try and give a fair and balanced analysis here, and not just QQ.
Because, if you look at it without the benefit of hind-sight, on paper EoTM is quite a good idea which solves many of the problems players were complaining about this time last year.
No new maps. Queues out of control. Server populations meaning either nobody to play with or play against. Always the same opponents, no new challenges. Week-long matchups dominated by coverage rather than the skill of those participating.
EoTM in theory solves all these things. It’s a new map, which you never have to queue for, and can play while queuing for ‘main’ WvW. Although it’s not 100% guarunteed, you are much more likely to find both allies and opponents in EoTM at any time of day, than in the regular maps which have large empty periods. And the matchups are short enough to be played through in a single sitting, rather than committing to an entire week.
All good so far.
—————————————
So what’s the problem? Well, several reasons have been cited for why it isn’t working out.
—————————————
First, it doesn’t contribute to the ‘main’ WvW effort, the server rankings etc. However, this is precisely as it should be. Before EoTM was released, people were worried that having additional map instances would give servers with massive populations even more advantage over smaller populations, as they would be able to earn PPT with all their extra players, while the smaller server didn’t even have enough players to fill the main maps, let alone EoTM. So no impact on PPT was pretty much a requirement for EoTM.
————————————-
Second, the random instances, short matchups, and no long-term colour affiliation mean there is no “community spirit”. Nobody cares if you win or lose. You don’t feel a responsibility to do the best for your team and help each other out, because your team will very soon be gone, maybe never seen again.
However, is this not the same in sPvP? In soloQ and tPvP you are randomly matched up with people who you might never see again, and you are only allied with them for a few short minutes. Yet, in tPvP people feel an obligation to try and win the match and help their team.
So why does it work in PvP and not EoTM? Is it because there is no reward for winning an EoTM matchup, whereas winning in PvP awards rank points, leaderboard positions, and other rewards? But how could that be applied to EoTM without bringing back the original problem of population-imbalance meaning rewards are more about transferring to the right team, rather than actual skill and effort?
————————————-
Is the problem too much PvE/PvD? I think this is a factor, but I also think it’s only a minor one. We have PvE and PvD elements in ‘main’ WvW. We even have PvE elements in sPvP. I don’t think they dominate the map so much that it detracts from the PvP potential. It’s just another factor to consider when confronting your enemy. That said, it should be noted that the Righteous Indignation buff on vets/champs completely dictates the flow of the matchup. If there was no RI, just a diminishing return on loot for killing the champ, would that change things?
—————————————
The champ/event rewards (xp/karma/bags) are too high when compared to other parts of the game? This is definitely a real factor. EoTM has become one of, maybe even the most popular way to level up alts. Toning these rewards down would certainly mean we see less karma-training in EoTM. But would removing the XP/Karma train entice the WvW/PvP crowd to return to EoTM? Or is the presence of the train a completely separate issue which has no bearing on PvP?
Continued…
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It’s quite simple.
People who show skill, courage and respect fighting even-numbered or out-numbered, they get a /salute.
People who run away from even fights, and only come out to play when they have numbers behind them, they get a /laugh.
A group of zerglings who break off from the train to chase a lone person half way across the map, and end up getting wiped, they might even get a /dance.
Then there are the people who just use emotes to try and wind you up and bait you into making a mistake. Welcome to the internet.
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Still haven’t done what I asked. Your points are invalid until you do so.
Why waste the time when you will just ignore it anyway?
But yeah, well we know that Devon is head of WvW, which would suggest there is a team. Being a head of something that does not exist would be rather silly after all.
I’m head of a 1-man guild which I never represent.
To the rest of the population, that guild might as well not exist.
The only way anyone would know it exists is if people start representing it and get out there doing stuff.
Sound familiar?
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Maybe there would be an option to report for hacking if 95% of the reported “hacks” weren’t just ill-informed players failing to understand game mechanics.
Being disruptive on the forums (in old or new threads), making rude or demanding posts and posting comments like “there is no WvW team anymore” are hardly an endearing method that encourages our developers to post more. I would ask that you take this into consideration when posting as well.
Chicken…. Egg…..
(tongue-in-cheek, I do appreciate your efforts)
(edited by Ragnar.4257)
3:
The amount of negativity and toxicity was massive as soon as he posted the first time.
It is not something that suddenly game with his lack of posting. But rather the reason for his lack of posting (most likely).
Not true. In the first month Devon took over from Habib, the general mood was pretty positive. He listened to player feedback about seige-timers and EU reset, and implemented fixes within a couple of weeks. I was feeling pretty positive about everything back then, and so were many others. If you don’t believe me, go and re-read the threads from that time.
But then it all turned sour in the autumn, with Bloodlust and Leagues. So don’t pretend it was all the fault of mean nasty players from the start.
^ Maybe the issue is that during testing people loved EOTM but more or less as soon as it was released people were whining like mad about how much it sucked and how it wasn’t WvW and so on?
Maybe that made them decide against player-testing due to the fact that it apparently didn’t give a correct image about what people actually wanted.
Maybe the issue is that testers were told not to fight each other. Only PvE testing allowed. And the result is a PvE-focused map. Who could’ve seen that coming?
If a guild ask me to not follow them, and it has happen again this week, I will usually respect that. However, they better be kittening polite about it or else I’m going to enjoy trolling their shadow till next Christmas and actively seeking them on all maps just for the principle of it.
They are not in their right to ask such a thing PERIOD. Them obtaining such a grace is all on the other player’s good will. And even so, that group shows little respect to begin with by wanting to exclude itself from other players while strongly implying that player is a nuisance to their team. IMO, they are in a pretty bad spot to ask for respect in the first place. The point in WvW that some Guild seem to conveniently forget is that their team is not their guild, but their server.
So basicly what you’re saying is that you can do whatever you want and have every right to play with whomever you want whether they want to play with you or not, but other players dont have that right.
I… dont really think I argue with that.
I think you have quite a loaded answer here. Nobody forces you to be best buddies and take them in your party. However, yes, they sure as hell can run where they want the same way you also can. The way WvW matches are done are based on servers, not pre-selections. Anyway, just think about it for one whole second. What can you do to prevent someone from following you? You can try to loose them by using wp, but it’s nothing like a guarantee of anything even in the short run. It’s the same reality as when you go to the public swimming pool. You can go there with friends, but you won’t be alone and you can’t say to others what to do as long as they behave within the frame of the context they are. It’s the same for them. Maybe WvW isn’t for you if you find that unjust or annoying. Again, you team is the server, not your guild.
BTW for the one above saying that being tagless or not is relevant, well, it’s not. It doesn’t change a kitten thing about all that I’ve said above.
Imagine you go to a public swimming pool, and someone you don’t know follows right behind you the entire time. Like, 2ft/50cm away, almost on top of you. For over an hour. You don’t know them. They’re just staring at you. Its really quite creepy.
Can you still not ask them to respect your space?
But they have just as much right to be in the swimming pool yeah?
And they’re allowed to go where they want in the swimming pool right?
So why can’t they follow right behind you for hours and hours?
Just because something is “allowed” doesn’t make it socially acceptable.
The problem is you are ridding the analogy beyond it’s capability to be used in this context. At the public swimming pool you aren’t in the same team, riding toward a common goal and in a hostile environment where numbers = safety. Specially when you are an uplevel might I add.
I totally agree that something allowed is not necessary acceptable. However, I STRONGLY question, based on several past experiences, who is socially unacceptable most of the time. Let’s be honest here. A lot of wannabe “elitist” guilds who are in love with their own hype are less than friendly, polite and/or respectful toward those they perceive as lower then them and think they can do WTF they want specially because it isn’t formally interdicted. So, from my perspective at least, there is a reversal of role here.
This is where your problem is. You are assuming everyone in WvW has a common goal, a unified target.
This simply isn’t the case. Some want fights, some want PPT, some want karma, some want map-completion, some want socializing, some want roleplay.
If you assume everyone on the map is 100% focused on the score, then what you’re saying makes sense.
But they aren’t.
I think ‘public swimming pool’ is actually a very good comparison for WvW.
It is not MY problem. The game has included a common goal whether you like it or not. It is built in the game. That you decided to play hockey while ignoring the puck is your choice, but the goal is there nonetheless. I will also add that if you are not playing the puck and the uplevel is, the problem isn’t the uplevel but you. No wonder ANet doesn’t seem to like GvG people… I can well see why by reading a lot of comments.
As for the swimming pool being a good analogy it is. Heck, “I” used/made it. However, like a lot of analogies they have limits that you must respect otherwise it becomes a complete joke.
Is that why there are jumping puzzles and crafting stations in WvW? Because there is only 1 goal built into the game?
Is that why the Grub is there?
Are these all accidents?
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If a guild ask me to not follow them, and it has happen again this week, I will usually respect that. However, they better be kittening polite about it or else I’m going to enjoy trolling their shadow till next Christmas and actively seeking them on all maps just for the principle of it.
They are not in their right to ask such a thing PERIOD. Them obtaining such a grace is all on the other player’s good will. And even so, that group shows little respect to begin with by wanting to exclude itself from other players while strongly implying that player is a nuisance to their team. IMO, they are in a pretty bad spot to ask for respect in the first place. The point in WvW that some Guild seem to conveniently forget is that their team is not their guild, but their server.
So basicly what you’re saying is that you can do whatever you want and have every right to play with whomever you want whether they want to play with you or not, but other players dont have that right.
I… dont really think I argue with that.
I think you have quite a loaded answer here. Nobody forces you to be best buddies and take them in your party. However, yes, they sure as hell can run where they want the same way you also can. The way WvW matches are done are based on servers, not pre-selections. Anyway, just think about it for one whole second. What can you do to prevent someone from following you? You can try to loose them by using wp, but it’s nothing like a guarantee of anything even in the short run. It’s the same reality as when you go to the public swimming pool. You can go there with friends, but you won’t be alone and you can’t say to others what to do as long as they behave within the frame of the context they are. It’s the same for them. Maybe WvW isn’t for you if you find that unjust or annoying. Again, you team is the server, not your guild.
BTW for the one above saying that being tagless or not is relevant, well, it’s not. It doesn’t change a kitten thing about all that I’ve said above.
Imagine you go to a public swimming pool, and someone you don’t know follows right behind you the entire time. Like, 2ft/50cm away, almost on top of you. For over an hour. You don’t know them. They’re just staring at you. Its really quite creepy.
Can you still not ask them to respect your space?
But they have just as much right to be in the swimming pool yeah?
And they’re allowed to go where they want in the swimming pool right?
So why can’t they follow right behind you for hours and hours?
Just because something is “allowed” doesn’t make it socially acceptable.
The problem is you are ridding the analogy beyond it’s capability to be used in this context. At the public swimming pool you aren’t in the same team, riding toward a common goal and in a hostile environment where numbers = safety. Specially when you are an uplevel might I add.
I totally agree that something allowed is not necessary acceptable. However, I STRONGLY question, based on several past experiences, who is socially unacceptable most of the time. Let’s be honest here. A lot of wannabe “elitist” guilds who are in love with their own hype are less than friendly, polite and/or respectful toward those they perceive as lower then them and think they can do WTF they want specially because it isn’t formally interdicted. So, from my perspective at least, there is a reversal of role here.
This is where your problem is. You are assuming everyone in WvW has a common goal, a unified target.
This simply isn’t the case. Some want fights, some want PPT, some want karma, some want map-completion, some want socializing, some want roleplay.
If you assume everyone on the map is 100% focused on the score, then what you’re saying makes sense.
But they aren’t.
I think ‘public swimming pool’ is actually a very good comparison for WvW.
(edited by Ragnar.4257)
If a guild ask me to not follow them, and it has happen again this week, I will usually respect that. However, they better be kittening polite about it or else I’m going to enjoy trolling their shadow till next Christmas and actively seeking them on all maps just for the principle of it.
They are not in their right to ask such a thing PERIOD. Them obtaining such a grace is all on the other player’s good will. And even so, that group shows little respect to begin with by wanting to exclude itself from other players while strongly implying that player is a nuisance to their team. IMO, they are in a pretty bad spot to ask for respect in the first place. The point in WvW that some Guild seem to conveniently forget is that their team is not their guild, but their server.
So basicly what you’re saying is that you can do whatever you want and have every right to play with whomever you want whether they want to play with you or not, but other players dont have that right.
I… dont really think I argue with that.
I think you have quite a loaded answer here. Nobody forces you to be best buddies and take them in your party. However, yes, they sure as hell can run where they want the same way you also can. The way WvW matches are done are based on servers, not pre-selections. Anyway, just think about it for one whole second. What can you do to prevent someone from following you? You can try to loose them by using wp, but it’s nothing like a guarantee of anything even in the short run. It’s the same reality as when you go to the public swimming pool. You can go there with friends, but you won’t be alone and you can’t say to others what to do as long as they behave within the frame of the context they are. It’s the same for them. Maybe WvW isn’t for you if you find that unjust or annoying. Again, you team is the server, not your guild.
BTW for the one above saying that being tagless or not is relevant, well, it’s not. It doesn’t change a kitten thing about all that I’ve said above.
Imagine you go to a public swimming pool, and someone you don’t know follows right behind you the entire time. Like, 2ft/50cm away, almost on top of you. For over an hour. You don’t know them. They’re just staring at you. Its really quite creepy.
Can you still not ask them to respect your space?
But they have just as much right to be in the swimming pool yeah?
And they’re allowed to go where they want in the swimming pool right?
So why can’t they follow right behind you for hours and hours?
Just because something is “allowed” doesn’t make it socially acceptable.
Or do you think it’s socially acceptable to latch on to people you don’t know, and follow them around, join in their conversations etc? If you went to the pool with your friends, would you be totally fine with some random person inserting themself into your group, and then they refuse to go away when you ask?
Because I don’t find that sort of behaviour acceptable. Illegal? No. Socially unacceptable? Yes.
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Running away from an even contest; the mark of the true pug.
Your original post was asking people to take GvG to the OS. It has been explained several times why this is not always an option. I will explain it again.
1. There is not always space in OS.
2. OS is a magnet for trolls and griefers.
GcG is helping own server in PPT.
This is the truth and even you may not like it, guild from your server was preventing guild from other server attacking your structures.
Oh, and what happens to the third server who now has half the opposition?
Anything to avoid the blatant issue… sight
This is really becoming an exercise in futility.
And what happens when all the fight-capable guilds on your server leave because they’re constantly getting harrassed by pugs for taking 1 hour out of the entire week to do some 20v20?
Do you think your server score will increase or decrease when you have no guilds left who are capable of taking T3 keeps in the face of greater numbers?
I don’t know how you guys do it but no matter what is said you will inevitably straw man everything. I don’t care about our score per se. Winning or loosing is but a result to me. The real point is server space and contribution when you occupy that space.
If “leet” guilds feel like others are a burden to them they are free to go where the grass is greener. I won’t beg for them to stay. We might fall down the ladder, but if it mean playing with people who just want to play the game that was designed in good faith it won’t be a bad trade for me. You really seem to think winning is very important. It’s not. Doing your best till the end is important, not winning.
So you’re saying your complaint isn’t that GvG is hurting your server rating/PPT?
Okay, but now I don’t really understand what your actual complaint is.
You just care about whether people are “trying” ? Why does it matter to you how others are playing the game, and how much effort they are puting in? Does it impact on your ability to play the game?
So now there are 20-30 people on the map who aren’t playing the way you want to. And……. what? The only conceivable reason to be upset about this is that for a short time you may be outmanned when attacking/defending objectives. But you just said you don’t mind if you win or lose (re: objectives). So…. what’s the problem? You can still go and “do your best till the end”.
(edited by Ragnar.4257)
GcG is helping own server in PPT.
This is the truth and even you may not like it, guild from your server was preventing guild from other server attacking your structures.
Oh, and what happens to the third server who now has half the opposition?
Anything to avoid the blatant issue… sight
This is really becoming an exercise in futility.
And what happens when all the fight-capable guilds on your server leave because they’re constantly getting harrassed by pugs for taking 1 hour out of the entire week to do some 20v20?
Do you think your server score will increase or decrease when you have no guilds left who are capable of taking T3 keeps in the face of greater numbers? What happens when you have no guilds left who can drop in with 15 guys and save your waypointed keep from the zone-blob bashing on the inner gates?
Now who’s hurting the server eh?
And it has been explained to you repeatedly why OS is not always an option. But go ahead and keep ignoring it.
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Guardian is not an easy class to roam around solo on. It can be done, but it’s not as simple as doing it with a thief or a warrior. I highly recommend Traveller runes.
With regards to taking the Garrison keeps, I’m not sure how NA compares, but in EU even in Tier 1 these keeps will get flipped during the week. Not very often, maybe only 2 or 3 times over an entire matchup, maybe not at all, but it definitely can happen. The catch is, that there is not really any guaruntee over when it will happen. Its just random pot-luck of when your side are on a roll, and the enemy are having a bad patch. A likely time is right at the start of primetime, when one server has started its big events early, while another hasn’t got going yet.
80 people on a map….. 30 from a guild, 50 random militia.
Why is it the responsibility of the guild to put the tag up?
Why is it not the responsibility of the militia?
Really, if you’re not prepared to tag up yourself, you can’t really complain when others don’t do so either.
And if you’re not prepared to tag up yourself, and someone else decided to bite the bullet, you really can’t complain about how that person commands. The reason so many commanders stop tagging up after a few weeks/months is because of the constant QQ and lack of co-operation from pugs.
Having someone tag up for you, shepherd you around, and do all the thinking for you, is a privilege, not a right.
So SirBeau, what are your thoughts on:
Jumping Puzzles on WvW maps
Crafting Stations on WvW maps
Skillpoints and Vistas on WvW maps
NPC mobs like Wurm, Grub, and Oakheart on WvW maps
Mystic Forge on WvW maps
Vendors and TP on WvW maps
The use of things like tonics, boxes of fun etc.
?
After all, anyone interacting with any of these things is not helping the server. They are not contributing to PPT. Are you saying that it wasn’t intended by ANet for people to be able to do things on the map other than PPT?
-snip-
That’s a fair point, and makes sense when you phrase it that way. The way you phrased it the first time was not obvious at all that you meant that. It looked very much like you were saying that people were responding with GvG guilds when OP had asked for WvW guilds, that they were mis-understanding OPs request, and that the two aren’t the same.
Which is another point I’d debate. In my mind there is no difference between GvG guilds and WvW guilds. I can’t think of one single guild who GvGs and who doesn’t WvW regularly. And I can’t think of a single guild who I’ve been impressed by who doesn’t GvG at least occasionally.
It shouldn’t be a surprise, though, when someone asks about top WvW guilds and the response is almost entirely GvG guilds. Anybody can golem-rush an empty map at 3am and earn big PPT. Anybody can sit on an arrow-cart for 4 hours. Anybody can recruit 500 players and blob roaming guilds. What most people are impressed and interested by is being able to take on equal or greater numbers and consistently win. I can’t think of any guilds who are genuinely a threat who don’t participate in GvG.
I would debate if further, but it’s kinda de-railing the topic. I appreciate your civility; I try and maintain it myself, but these forums can really make it difficult sometimes >.<
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……. then perhaps he should edit the title to specifically say GvG.
Go and read the OP again. I know reading is difficult, but you gotta make the effort.
Who are the best WvW/GvG guilds in EU?
And which of those are speaking English, and which servers are they on?
Thank you for your answers in advance.
Right back at ya..
That is absurdly pedantic.
I find it interesting that the OP asks who are the best WvW guilds in EU and everyone answers with who they think are the best GvG guilds.
Are you saying that what the OP wrote in his post is completely irrelevant, and the only thing that matters is the title?
OP clearly asked about WvW/GvG guilds. Then you go off on one about how he wasn’t asking about GvG. Even though he did ask about it.
You can be pedantic if you want, but your point about OP not asking about GvG, when he did infact ask about GvG, is just stupid.
I find it interesting that the OP asks who are the best WvW guilds in EU and everyone answers with who they think are the best GvG guilds.
So, in answer to the OP’s specific WvW query, I’d like to put forward:
Badger Spirits [BS] – NA/International on Desolation .. these guys take tactical WvW to the next level.Right, I forget about PPT heroes. I guess we have to make another list at who’s the best at nightcapping, golem rushing, arrowcart building, and all around siege wars, to determine who is the best “WvW” guild. Unless I’m very much mistaken PPT is a pointless mechanic in which very few people still play purely for that reason, which is, I assume, why people mention the best fighting guilds.
And I think you forget that GvG is NOT WvWvW! It’s a mode of gaming that was formulated by players in WvW because they wanted more freedom in deciding the classes and builds than they were allows in sPvP.
Any guilds who specifically wanted to have a Guild vs Guild match can easily get a custom arena set up and challenge any guild no matter what server they are on. They don’t because they all feel constrained by the rules of the PvP mode. Hence, GvG in WvW.
Again .. the OP specifically said WvW guilds. WvW is about PPT. If the OP meant GvG, then perhaps he should edit the title to specifically say GvG.
Go and read the OP again. I know reading is difficult, but you gotta make the effort.
Who are the best WvW/GvG guilds in EU?
And which of those are speaking English, and which servers are they on?
Thank you for your answers in advance.
It has been talked about before. A-net can not do anything about it.
I really hope this is not the case, did the devs say they DEFINATELY can’t do anything about it or is it just speculation due to the amount of time they have taken to fix this? I really hope they can fix it because I’m a big achievement hunter and their is no way in hell I will go for any of those, your right that the 250k kill tally is the only achievable one.
They can do something about it, but they won’t.
Go take a look through the Dev tracker, to see how many posts ANet are making in each section of the game. See how long it takes you to find one related to WvW.
Go take a look through the patch notes for the last 6 months. Finding the WvW related stuff is like playing “Where’s Wally”.
I’m sorry to break it to you (no sarcasm, I genuinely am sorry), but if you’re new to WvW and excited about its potential, you’re in for some bitter disappointment.
I have 5 characters with 100% WvW map completion and only ~20% PvE map completion.
Can I have my PvE map completion handed to me on a silver platter for zero effort please?
The really depressing part is that it’s too late.
Even if, tomorrow, they release 3 new awesome maps, a fully-functional GvG-mode, proper commander tags, a reward-track system that considers scouts and defenders, and some miracle-fix to populations and coverage….. even with all that I don’t think even half of the big guilds and big characters that made WvW so special would return. Season 1 was the last throw of the dice, the last chance to make WvW into something permanent, but instead it was a PvE achievement grind. GG.
There’s no point still hoping for ANet to make it all better, because even if they throw everything they’ve got at it…. not very much will change. And that is precisely why they won’t do anything.
All is vain.
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Flee To Frostgorge Scrubs
Is a new guild dedicated to purging the mists of the karma-train and bringing back some real PvP, both open-field and objective-oriented, to EoTM.
Currently EU only….. if anyone would like to set up an NA branch, then please get in touch.
There are no representing or activity requirements. Keep playing with your other guilds, and join in whenever you want.
All that matters is your attitude – a strong dis-like of mindless training, and an enthusiasm for bringing strategy and competition to EoTM.
Think of this more as a contacts list than a guild; somewhere to find a group of kindred spirits, to go meet up and de-rail some karma-trains, or go out with the aim of winning an EoTM match.
If our numbers grow large enough, maybe we’ll start organising some proper raids, but for now it is just dis-organised guerilla warfare.
Message myself (Ragnar.4257), or anyone else with the guild tag, for an invite.
Happy hunting!
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Didn’t they say, somewhere, long ago, that we were going to be able to do something (SOON) with bloodstone dust and empyreal??
They probs backtracked on that.
This is what I want to know. Yes Devon said a long time ago not to destroy our bloodstone and empyreal because there was something else coming that it could be used for.
I’m tempted to destroy it anyway but I know as soon as I do they’ll put the change in.
So what is it and when is it coming?
I’m pretty sure that was said a couple of weeks before ascended armour was released. So they were referring to that.
I think only necro, thief and engi are not optimal with hybrid builds.
wut.
Is this a serious statement?
There is a difference between “optimal” and “viable”.
That is very true Reborn, the scariest opponents to fight are the ones who are making good use of both power and condition damage.
The scariest warriors are the ones who make use of their bleeds and immobilises while keeping up the direct-damage pressure.
The scariest guardians are the ones who are constantly applying blind and burn while also doing direct damage.
The scariest rangers are the ones who have very high poison and burn uptime, while also hitting hard with DD.
The scariest mesmers are the ones who keep up perma-cripple, bleed and burn, while still hitting hard with shatter/phantasm.
The scariest Eles are the ones who still hit hard with direct damage, and are also maintaining very high burn/chill uptime.
I think only necro, thief and engi are not optimal with hybrid builds.
I guess my question to you is; why is that a problem? Should it not be the case that to be the best with your class, you have to fully utilize all the skills and abilities you have, and not just focus on one aspect? Surely juggling your condi and direct damage at the same time is a more skill-full approach than only spamming one type?
You clearly need glasses or learn to understand what passive play is. There’s a reason you didn’t bring stat differentiation up. Because it’s also applied directly with conditions classes or the condition meta. You can build tanky and still deal a lot of damage by really doing nothing.
Once the conditions land, do they ignore armor? Yes. Is power damage affected by armor Yes? Do Condi’s ignore protection? Yes. There’s a distinct reason why there are so many roamers who are using condi cheese builds.
Lets break this down. Eviscerate is affected by a number of things – including, crit-chance, power, armor (opponent) and ferocity. Mark of blood is affected by condi damage and condi duration. To even land a really hard hitting eviscerate all of these stats come into play. Even if you have an extremely high crit chance, the skill might not crit, luck of the draw. If you eviscerate another tanky warrior it won’t hit as hard or one with protection. However, if I mark of blood a target. Does it not still do the same amount of damage over time regardless of armor or power or protection? Yes. That’s the main picture that no one really understands.
No, I don’t bring stat differentiation up because its a completely different point.
I was arguing against your earlier point that started with this:
The main reason condition builds are overpowered is its “fire and forget” once you get the condi bomb or any amount of condis on someone you can move to a different target and you’ll still deal damage – even if your target is running away…you’re still dealing damage.
You were arguing that because conditions continue to do damage over a period of time, that that somehow makes them more powerful.
I say that that aspect infact doesn’t make conditions more powerful. Different, sure, but it doesn’t magically make them do more damage, simply the fact that they are ticking once applied. They still have to be applied in the first place.
Don’t move the goalposts.
Now, if you want to argue about stats, thats a completely different point. Sure, direct damage is mitigated by armour, while condi damage isn’t. However, condi damage is mitigated by condi cleanses, while direct damage isn’t.
Condition classes require less offensive stats, so can build tankier. However, this is (somewhat) justifiable when you consider that a condi player has to wait for their damage to tick down. If condi classes were required to be as glassy as power builds to achieve the same damage, nobody would play condi, because in that case the power build does the same damage in less time.
IMO the only truly broken part of conditions is the +40% food.
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The key word being “still”. If I condi bomb you but I die – are the condi’s still not damaging or affecting your character? You chose AGAIN to ignore what I said again about stat differentiation. Condi gear has defense against power for example with toughness such as rabid or dire. Warriors run dogged march/melandru’s for a reason, because without it they’d be screwed. Condition damage doesn’t also factor in crits. To do that extra damage, there have to be certain conditions to meet such as crit or a lot of power. Condi damage doesn’t need to adhere to the same rules. Conditions, I pull out my lawn chair, throw them on you, and proceed to drink my iced tea. With power, I get off my chair and I have to stick to you to deal the damage. Conditions are passive play. There’s no active element. Condition setups (builds) can bring whatever they want because they have more options when using condition damage.
Sure, condi damage isn’t super efficient in zergs because of all the cleanses. However, in small group fights condi’s are the king of the game.
Can you dodge an eviscerate over and over? Yes
Can you dodge bleeds once they’re on you? NoDodges are up a lot more often then cleanses. That’s why dodge timing is essential. It takes skill. Cleanses are only up every so often. There’s always a CD for them.
You clearly haven’t understood what I’m saying.
Yes, of course, if I load you up with conditions, then I go down, the conditions are still ticking on you.
But.
If I had Eviscerated you, it would still be the same amount of damage. Maybe I would have got you down instead, because I didn’t need to wait for my damage to tick over 15 seconds. In fact, it is actually BETTER to be hit with bleeds than eviscerate, because you have time to deal with the bleeds, time for a cleanse or a heal to come off cooldown.
Scenario 1: I Eviscerate you for 5k, then I go down.
Scenario 2: I put bleeds worth 5k on you, then I go down, and the condition keeps ticking while you take the 5k damage.
The end result is exactly the same. You take 5k damage. The only difference is that the condition damage is delayed by a few seconds.
The way to avoid this damage is exactly the same. You dodge/block/blind it.
You don’t dodge the bleeding once it is on you, that’s kittening stupid. You dodge the application of the bleed.
WTF you talking about “conditions are passive play”. How the hell do you think those conditions got on you in the first place? Sure, some of it is passive from runes, but the vast majority require an attack to be landed. Even sigils require a critical hit.
I’m not arguing the stat differentiation point, which is why I didn’t bring it up.
I just don’t see how you are fine with being eviscerated for 5k, but cry about bleeds for 5k. Yes, they keep happening for several ticks. But it is not passive. The bleeds still have to be applied. You can dodge the application.
I’m not saying conditions are perfectly balanced. The food is clearly unbalanced. However, this stuff “passive play, fire and forget” stuff you’re spouting is complete nonsense.
Just explain to me, just try and explain, right now, the difference between a warrior hitting you with Eviscerate, and a Necro hitting you with Mark of Blood. Explain how they are different. Explain how you end up losing more health from the Necro. Explain how the Necro doesn’t have to hit you with an attack, the bleeds just magically appear on you.
Just. W. T. F.
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snip
snip
You do know what fire and forget means? I put a ton of condi’s on you and walk away. I’m still doing a lot of damage.
Warrior uses Eviscerate -> Does 5k damage in one hit (assuming both players aren’t full zerk).
Necro uses Mark of Blood -> Does 5k Bleeding damage over a period of 15 seconds.
Its the same damage.
How is one “fire and forget” while the other isn’t?
Its the same damage.
You “fire” an Eviscerate and then forget about it.
Just because the bleeding happens over a period of 15 seconds, rather than all at once, it is still a single attack. You still have to hit the target with it.
I’ll say it again.
It.
Is.
The.
Same.
Damage.
I don’t really know how to say it any more plainly.
Just because a condition is ticking over a period of time, doesn’t mean it ends up doing any more damage.
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The point isn’t about whether it’s “fair”, “allowed” or “expected”.
Its just about fun.
Lets leave aside formal duels for now, and just talk about roaming, where 1v1s and 2v2s can frequently happen.
If I’m in a 1v1 while roaming, and 2 allies jump in and turn it into a 3v1, I don’t get annoyed because its not “honourable”. I get annoyed because its not “fun”. 3v1 takes zero effort, requires zero skill. You can do it with your eyes closed.
So rather than having a challenging 1v1 where I have to really work hard, by adding in you turn my fun fight into, basically, PvE. You have robbed me of fun.
Its not about honour and fairness, its just about turning fun fights into tedious zergfests.
However, I fully agree that people shouldn’t expect perfectly fair fights if they’re hanging around objectives and main-roads. This is why many people seeking duels on EB go to the east side of Stonemist, where the Oakhearts are, because there is rarely any reason for the PPT hordes to go through that way.
I was going to make a point by point rebuttal…. but this post is so absurdly ill-informed, it’s just not worth trying.
If you don’t understand already that veggie pizza cancels out lemongrass, that all classes are capable of fighting backstab thieves if played properly, and that necros are one of the best classes in the game for dealing with conditions, nothing any of us can say will make a difference.
You can’t really dodge conditions like you can dodge a 10k backstab.
This is just not true, and it is why people get so upset about conditions.
If a sword/sword condi-warrior is coming to get you, you can dodge his Impale. If you dodge that, you avoid 5-10k Torment. Thats the same as dodging a backstab.
If you dodge his Flurry, then you dodge ~5k bleeding damage.
Its the same amount of damage. Just because it ticks down over a period of 5-10 seconds, rather than all at once, doesn’t mean it is taking any more of your health than a backstab.
The only difference is that the condition damage can be cleansed before it has a chance to do all its damage. This is off-set by making condi damage ignore armour.
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The irony is, the reason these problems exist is encapsulated in your post.
You want rewards.
The reason people don’t bother defending, and zerg around, is because they want rewards and they want them fast.
People who play WvW for its own sake, and pay no attention to rewards, are free of these shackles.
Make symmetrical maps if balance is a problem.
EoTM is cluttered with way too much stuff. Most WvW players would be happy with blank terrain dotted with a few keeps.
If they would just do that, I imagine testing and balance would be significantly easier than creating dozens of new NPCs, mechanics, seige, consumables etc.
A new map doesn’t have to be a work of art.
It took 18 months to get the one, single new map WvW has ever had (EoTM). That is the 18 months immediately after release, the period when changes are most likely to happen. And many strongly suspect this only happened because it was a test run for MegaServer and also served as ‘filler’ for the LivingStory.
What do you think the chances are of a single new map ever happening again? Let alone 6.
…
Don’t expect to be able to just take all their conditions and then cleanse/heal through it. Conditions are the same as direct damage -> the only effective counter is to avoid it completely. Same as Killshot. Same as MindWrack. Same as Dragons Tooth. Same as Whirling Wrath. Same as Backstab.
…
-Kill shot you can see coming(running KS on a War in a small fight is like painting a giant bullseye on your back)
-Mind Wrack you can see coming(Clones running towards me? Gee what’s going to happen?)
-Dragon’s Tooth you can see coming (there’s a giant, flaming fang dripping lava on your head!)
-Who complains about whirling Whirling Wrath? lols
- Backstab was problematic, I would fully agree with you on that, you really had to just guess and dodge or pop a block or something.Anyways, see where I’m going with this? They are not equal. Moving on.
Grenades – massive pile of red circles, cluster of flashing grenades slowly flying through the air
Bombs – obvious circles on the ground
Illusionary Counter (the only ‘burst’ a condi mes has) – mesmer stands there mysteriously doing nothing, and then blocks. Very easily evaded even if you hit the block (hint, there is a short window between the block and the torment where you can evade).
Confusing Images – massive purple beam
Thief Pistol-Venom burst – all the venom buffs appear on his boon bar, often coincides with Thieves Guild, or an unusually long period in stealth.
Necro Marks – evil green flashing circle on floor
Signet of Spite – do you even have eyes?
Deathshroud/Plague – ????
You see where I’m going with this? Many of the hardest hitting condition skills have just as obvious telegraphs as power skills.
Some people have just learnt to pay attention to them, while others refuse to and would rather QQ instead.
Dodging a venom-unload from a thief is just the same as dodging a hammer-chain from a warrior. The signs are there for you to read. If you fail to read it, you get destroyed. If you read it properly, they’ll just be flailing in the air.
If you’re facing a condi Mes and get loaded up with 5 stacks of torment, 10 stacks of confusion, 10 stacks of bleed, cripple and vulnerability, that isn’t the Mes being OP. It’s you being bad.
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It’s ridiculous that some classes can apply more conditions than you can cleanse
I think you should read what you wrote a few times…
I’m assuming this is a joke thread?
Condition cleansing skills often have twice or three times the cooldown period to condition application skills (autoattack skills notwithstanding). Think about that.
You will not be able to avoid every single skill and, if your opponent gets the first hit on you (such as when you’re fighting a sentry and they come out of stealth to hit you), there’s no way to fight back when you’re trying to cleanse all the conditions and keep your health up since you’re losing 3000-5000 health per tick. For most classes, that’s death within 4 seconds.
If condi cleanse and application had the same cooldown, then condition builds would do zero damage. Think about that.
Its like saying Heal skills should have the same cooldown as auto-attacks. Because how are you supposed to deal with people hitting you for 1k damage each second with their auto-attacks, if your heal only gives you back 5k HP every 20 seconds???
The answer is you aren’t supposed to be able to heal back just as much damage as you take. In the same way, you aren’t supposed to be able to cleanse every single condition.
Full-Condi builds counter bunker and hybrid builds pretty well…. the longer a fight goes on, the more advantage condition builds have.
The most reliable way of beating them is bursting them in the first 10 seconds, or at least applying enough pressure to make them start panicking.
Condi-burst is like any other type of burst. If you take it like a scrub, you’ll melt fast. Just the same as if you decided to take a hundred-blades and eviscerate. Or if you stand still for a BlurredFrenzy/Shatter combo. But if you can avoid it (block, blind, evade) then they’re left helpless. If you get 8 conditions on you and then complain that you can’t recover, it’s just the same as taking a hundred blades and complaining you can’t recover. You got out-played.
Don’t expect to be able to just take all their conditions and then cleanse/heal through it. Conditions are the same as direct damage -> the only effective counter is to avoid it completely. Same as Killshot. Same as MindWrack. Same as Dragons Tooth. Same as Whirling Wrath. Same as Backstab.
If you can evade their damage while applying your own, you are the better player. If they evade your damage while applying their own, then they are the better player. Whether it’s condi or direct-damage doesn’t even come into it.
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Hopefully they go nowhere with it.
The idea that players who spend more time in-game should have access to better traits and buffs is completely antithetical to competitive PvP.
Just how exactly would you score around fights? 30 vs 15…… the 30 winning and gets more points? Would the small scale skirmishes around camps, dollies etc that people enjoy no longer be important removing any tactical elements?
Or would you herd everyone into guilds ?
Not saying the status quo is where I want to be but it would be impossible to score from “fights”.You really can’t, and there’s no reason why they shouldn’t. “Skill groups” are some of the worst players in WvW I ever encounter and contribute absolutely nothing most of the time, coupled with having a horrible attitude towards WvW and everyone that’s not them.
Good, larger groups that have a focus on PPT are lovely to be around most of the time however. Good groups can and do have a large input on PPT, whether that group consist of two or 20 players. “Skill groups” purposefully ignore this fact in favor of “finding the good fights”, probably because they don’t really have any idea how WvW works and have no interest in learning.
PPT takes all of 3 seconds to “learn”. The idea that anyone doesn’t “have any idea how WvW works” is just laughable. Do you really think skill groups “don’t understand” that holding and upgrading keeps is beneficial to PPT? Or spending 2 hours trebbing to drain supply? Of course they understand, they just think it’s a pointless waste of time.
Do you like watching paint dry? No? You just don’t understand paint drying! If you took the time to learn how to watch paint dry, then you’d enjoy it, but you have no interest in learning how to watch paint dry do you? You contribute nothing to the paint-drying community, and your attitude is horrible. L2WPD noob.
This is quite aside from the fact that skill groups often achieve PPT for their server that no “true” wvwer could ever achieve. Skill groups routinely take fully upgraded keeps in the face of entire zones of defenders, something pug groups could never achieve. But then, 20 minutes later, the skill group doesn’t defend a tower, and PPTers QQ about them “contributing nothing”, conveniently forgetting the recently flipped T3 keep.
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Some "GvG"s aren’t planned, they just sort of happen when 2 guilds meet on the field. They would still prefer to have a fair, un-interrupted fight. It just isn’t “official” and pre-planned.
Most decent guilds will respect a fair fight. There is a strong correlation between scrubiness and ganking. Not all of them tho….
I don’t give a flying fudge about a weapon skin, so I don’t care that it’s delayed or if it even comes at all, and I don’t really understand why people are upset about that part.
However, what does upset me is that, yet again, WvW has been left as an after-thought. If this were PvE, it would have had every resource thrown at this problem, and it would be fixed within hours. If this were PvE, you would have patched the vendor in on the tuesday before the tournament ended, or even on the friday itself. And you certainly wouldn’t have started the tournament without having the vendor ready to patch in. In PvE you manage to get rewards working perfectly on a 4-week cycle, yet for WvW you have a 6-month cycle and can’t even devote the resources to get that right (this isn’t a one-off, all tournaments to date have failed with rewards).
The only reason we’re even seeing anyone from ANet post in this section of the forums now (after months of silence) is to plead with us to not let their screw up become a full-blown PR disaster.
Never mind the kitten tokens. Please take this as a wake-up call to stop ignoring WvW.
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I don’t know whether it’s a good thing or a bad thing that they’ve stopped even pretending to have customer support, and are openly sticking their middle finger up at WvW.
At least everyone is now clear about where they stand.
PPT is the reason the UK is keeping the Falklands.
Decline started way before EoTM or Seasons or Bloodlust-Ruins. It goes way back to 2012 when in the months following release there were PvE content patches every fortnight, and the release of fractals, and WvW players asked “what about us?”.
The response was “there’s a big wvw patch coming end of december 2012”. So wvw players waited patiently. But come december, this changed to “big wvw patch coming january 2013”. January came and went. “don’t worry, it’s coming in february”. February nothing.
March comes, “it’s finally here guys, the wvw patch you’ve been waiting for”. Culling removed. Wxp ranks added. Meanwhile, PvE has another massive content update.
This is what did it for alot of people. We waited patiently for 6 months, being told ‘our time will come’, watching pve getting massive updates every 2 weeks. We were hoping that having to wait so long would at least mean, when it finally came, that the ‘wvw patch’ would be awesome. But it wasn’t. Sure, removal of culling was nice, but it hardly compares to fractals, a dozen living story content updates, and hundreds upon hundreds of bug fixes for dungeons. And there was the realisation that, if that was ‘the big wvw patch’, that we couldn’t expect anything else for a long time either.
That’s when people realised wvw was not something ANet believe in, and since then all discussion around wvw has been framed differently. It’s no longer “ooooohhh, I wonder what they’re cooking up”, it’s just “ehhhhh, I wonder if we’ll get any scraps accidentally flung our way”.
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So you’re saying the only measure of skill is running with 15 or less. It doesn’t matter how well you play, who your opponent is, what your composition is, or whether you win. That’s all irrelevant, because >15 is instant noob and <15 is instant pro? Sounds kinda stupid to me.
The fact is the meta has moved on. A year ago it was easier to run with 15 than it is today, because the average standard of pug-zergers has gone up. Please note: not every pug zerg, I said the average. This isn’t necessarily that the skill of your average pug has gone up, it’s more due to the builds and tactics of the top guilds having filtered through to the rest now. A year ago alot less people stacked stability or understood the importance of waterfields or soft/hard CC. It used to be that a static field would halt 90% of a zerg. Now 90% will walk through it.
You also have to consider that since EoTM, your average zerg contains alot less upscales and badge-farmers than it did a year ago. These days, there are plenty of organised pug-blobs around which are completely un-fightable with less than 25.
It’s the same amongst the top guilds. A year ago RG was completely untouchable. However, I’m pretty sure the TA or VII of today could roll over 1-year-ago-RG without blinking. That’s not because the players are more skilled (heck, some of them are the same players). It’s just that the meta has advanced and new tactics discovered.
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How do you know they are farming bloodlust stomps? Seems like a big jump to make considering the possible score contribution is really small.
They could just be guildies who want to kill eachother and are in a cross-server guild. Or some of them transferred a while back and now are fighting for fun.
And as to them jumping you with the help of their guildie, you are kinda out of luck. For all you know they were coming to kill the friendly version and you were in their way.
Not everyone cheats. So stop assuming people are out to get you.
Why do people DEFEND this kind of behaviour?
In other MMOs like DAOC or WAR these people would have their accounts terminated. In GW2 people stick up for xrealmers?
What exactly do you think they’re doing wrong?
How about YOU provide some real evidence before declaring people guilty. A screenshot of people on 2 different servers with the same guild tag proves absolutely nothing. Maybe they used to be on the same server in the same guild together, but have since split up, and are just using the same guild tag now to say hi to old friends?
There are plenty of perfectly innocent reasons why a guild might have members on more than one server. But guilty until proven innocent right?
Why exactly do you want their accounts terminated?
Maybe make superior siege (apart from rams) last twice as long.
The timers aren’t in there just for fun; there’s a cap on how many items can be on the map, so the timer is there to keep the map clean, so you aren’t constantly hitting the cap. Being unable to build any seige to defend garrison because you’ve got 100 ACs in Hills would seriously suck.
They also combat seige-trolling.
But trolls tend not to want to shell-out for superior seige, so maybe that’s a viable option.