Guild Wars 2

Elcyion.7452:

DB Doing a reversed tactic of Maguuma would be annoying if that korean/taiwanese horde actuly fortified evrything and dropped siege and keept it refreshed would be a total nightmare

DB does do that but with only key locations. normally garrison and our keep in EB with have half the seige cap in them to help the NA pop hold them.

Pendragon.8735:

Besetment.9187:

It DOES matter how much you fortify. This is one of the reasons why YB lost the last match.

That really depends on what forces you have available. I’m not sure our numbers vs DB maybe they withered away under the pressure, but if you are too low, then no it really doesn’t matter. I remember playing IoJ and being on those off peak times several nights, trying to defend 30+ zergs with 5 or so people. Not going to happen, 4 rams on a door or a handful of golems, its going to melt fully fortified or not. Yeah a reinforced door might last 2 minutes instead of 30 seconds, but when their peak play time is about 4-6 hours, its not a big difference in the grand scheme of things.

I still think eventually if population dwindles in this game, or continues to, they will have to think about merging servers. Too many servers below tier 2 or so have huge gaps of weak play period. Yaks has one in NA AM times before noon, to where you can hear crickets chirping in map chat. And I don’t say that as a whine, because I know all our opponents around T4 have similar, but its not really ideal for the game mode.

We played SoR and NS and it was a war every night in primetime, and was a blast. The match ebbed a little overnight, but it was not the prime thing to plan around, thankfully.

You don’t need alot. during the first 2 weeks us DB players during NA prime time always had outmanned buff with both DH and NSP each coming after everything we had. someone actually posted a picture of the map when they finally took Overlook keep. took 6 days. outmanned buff everyday.

because our NA people were able to hold out for so long we have built a healthy respect among our own server and those we face.

Relentliss.2170:

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

ChapDev.7650:

RockonHarder.7235:

Archer.1658:

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

Lol, I wonder what these EBayers who are snippy will think next week when they face Dragonbrand.

I think you have forgotten we utterly crushed them before. Not to say they haven’t changed since then.

We have… you faced us when we had just lost 1000 people to SoS. it will be a different fight this time. We will be the underdogs and wouldn’t have it any other way.

Hah I like that attitude, WvWvW needs more people like you in it who will fight against the numbers.

Lolwut?

DB will have YB and EB outmanned for large periods of time…. I wouldn’t be surprised if they win.

This is so true. YB population matches up terrible to DB.

I’d be interested in seeing the result of a CD DB match up.

Hats off to both our foes this week. Been loving the open field skirmishing around the southern supply camps this weekend. Had some simply epic battles.

during our last match up with the yaks we had outmanned buffs sometimes during NA primetime. in the end it’s how you play the game. Magumma beat us both because of that.

Relentliss.2170:

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

ChapDev.7650:

RockonHarder.7235:

Archer.1658:

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

Lol, I wonder what these EBayers who are snippy will think next week when they face Dragonbrand.

I think you have forgotten we utterly crushed them before. Not to say they haven’t changed since then.

We have… you faced us when we had just lost 1000 people to SoS. it will be a different fight this time. We will be the underdogs and wouldn’t have it any other way.

Hah I like that attitude, WvWvW needs more people like you in it who will fight against the numbers.

Lolwut?

DB will have YB and EB outmanned for large periods of time…. I wouldn’t be surprised if they win.

This is so true. YB population matches up terrible to DB.

I’d be interested in seeing the result of a CD DB match up.

Hats off to both our foes this week. Been loving the open field skirmishing around the southern supply camps this weekend. Had some simply epic battles.

go check out the match up history. you’ll find cd and DB squared off a bunch of times in the past.

Has anyone else been watching Devona climb the rank. if next week ends up a Magumma/BP/Devona match up i’m interested to see how that turns out.

Tynan.6279:

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

ChapDev.7650:

RockonHarder.7235:

Archer.1658:

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

Lol, I wonder what these EBayers who are snippy will think next week when they face Dragonbrand.

I think you have forgotten we utterly crushed them before. Not to say they haven’t changed since then.

We have… you faced us when we had just lost 1000 people to SoS. it will be a different fight this time. We will be the underdogs and wouldn’t have it any other way.

Hah I like that attitude, WvWvW needs more people like you in it who will fight against the numbers.

Lolwut?

DB will have YB and EB outmanned for large periods of time…. I wouldn’t be surprised if they win.

<This

Having DB in our Tier again sucks, it will be a crappy Wv3 I mean Wv2 as DB sits on everything while we sleep and work, yeah fun!

Maybe have a conversation with Magumma. they managed to not only beat DB but the Yak’s last round.

In the end where there is a will there is a way.

Can we get a score update ?

Archer.1658:

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

Lol, I wonder what these EBayers who are snippy will think next week when they face Dragonbrand.

I think you have forgotten we utterly crushed them before. Not to say they haven’t changed since then.

We have… you faced us when we had just lost 1000 people to SoS. it will be a different fight this time. We will be the underdogs and wouldn’t have it any other way.

AH actually i’m one of the NA player’s who has to defend against the on slot from you guys. next week though we have a few additions in our NA line up. should add a bit of spice to the match up.

DRagonBRand will return guys. i’m interested in seeing who we replace.

shagworth.5017:

How come Yak’s Bend players ask us to post any evidence of exploits on their forums, but when we do, the threads get deleted?

because exploits are not ment for this forum. or thread.

My guess they are working on getting the title for building seige.

GuardianOMS.8067:

RockonHarder.7235:

yeah and while we were clearing yak bl. magumma retook there BL and yaks broke out in EB followed by maguma. there was alot more of you guys on come 6am then normally. 26th is a day alot of people don’t go to work NA players were alot more active. i know because i was one of them.

I ‘m aware, and there’s been storms and all those good stuff keeping people away from work. But it’s still the holidays, so presence is fluctuating between everyone. And whether it’s up or down, this morning, DB still outnumbered us. But as I said, DB just seemed to give up when they were pushed but still had us outnumbered. It’s like nothing was a serious. I rarely saw siege placed other than flame rams, then once those were down and we arrow carted DB away from the gate, they backed off like that was their first and only plan.

East keep on DB BL seemed to be the only thing you really wanted. But I’m only speaking from what I saw, I’m just trying to understand.

Pugs’s don’t place seige in my experience.

GuardianOMS.8067:

RockonHarder.7235:

Only 1 commander was on running between all 4 zones. plus there was alot more Yak’s and Maguma on this morning.

I guess that puts things in perspective, but with all your numbers, do you really need commanders? I mean, aren’t people competent enough to lead themselves in small groups or parties and communicate through voice comms and/or team chat? I’m not trying to sound insulting, it just always seems odd to me when people use the lack of a commander as excuse (or reason, w/e) despite having overwhelming numbers. The ability to siege and know what to hit and how shouldn’t be limited to the select few with a shiny icon.

I can understand if more Yaks and Mags were on, but you guys still outnumbered us by quite a bit. I wasn’t even aware that Yak was a contender in the numbers game this morning since their BL was mopped by DB with little time and resistance.

yeah and while we were clearing yak bl. magumma retook there BL and yaks broke out in EB followed by maguma. there was alot more of you guys on come 6am then normally. 26th is a day alot of people don’t go to work NA players were alot more active. i know because i was one of them.

GuardianOMS.8067:

Grit.9061:

There is a small minority of people who will try to judge entire servers based on the actions of a few exploiters and trolls. Don’t let them hijack this thread by continuing to fuel a pointless discussion. It doesn’t matter which server you’re on.. just stop it.

One or two posts from one person is not hijacking a thread. Don’t blow things out of proportion.

Grit.9061:

I’m surprised Dragonbrand hasn’t managed to maintain a stronger point lead with the advantage we have in the early morning hours. Maguuma and Yak’s Bend aren’t going to let us win so easily.

DB seemed to give up entirely too easily this morning. They’d hit something, get pushed, then go to another BL. No seige, no adjusted plans, no hitting from a different door, just map back. Thanks for the late Christmas present, I guess.

Only 1 commander was on running between all 4 zones. plus there was alot more Yak’s and Maguma on this morning.

Tynan.6279:

Nice… the video that shows the under the map glitch that DB is exploiting just got removed!

Yes because your not suppose to be posting that crap in these forums. send your information to arenanet and thats it.

Jan.4830:

1. The time on the screenshot is the local time in Singapore, not standard server time. I posted within 5 mins of the event happening. it carried on for much longer after that.
——————————-
2. NO DB player is targeted because it was not possible to target them from the location we were standing at. Tab click or otherwise.
——————————-
3. The guild tag CHEM was reported from multiple people who were able to target the exploiters when they got too close to the ‘surface’. Perhaps they will have more screenshots and are willing to post it.
——————————

Since there seems to be a suggestion that this is an elaborate scheme to frame a server…

Fraps would definitely be better ‘proof’ then a couple of screenshots, anyone who was there care to put up a link?

Yes we could report this to Anet, we have. As mentioned earlier, we also want to name and shame the people and the guild that did this.

Doubt they’re still there at this point.

i wasn’t implying that this was some elaborate scheme and did say it was clear something was happening. while there has been screen shot’s to the effect,

We ourselves have posted screenshot’s and made accusations which then were later explained.

i’m sure if the shoe was on the other foot you would want every step taking before people started pointed at you.

there is only enough clear evidence to show “someone” is explioting. In these picture’s.

The people in DRagonbrand have to fight hard enough to get to where we are. To only get dragged down by accusations. please just give us the same consideration you would like in return.

FlamingMook.8437:

RockonHarder.7235:

HOw do you know they are dragon brand? also how do you know the guild is CHEM?

not to be the devil’s advocate because clearly something is happening. but to not be able to target anything then claim you know who it was.

Did you even bother to look at the screenshot?

Yes i did.

What i see is a combat log saying your taking large amounts of damage and on the screen shot someone only taking 52 damage.

Now it is also possible that the last time you took damage from a Dragonbrand player was somewhere else. NO DB player is targeted and also the combat log info is not syncing up with the actual damage your taking on the screen.

So in the end for this to be conclusive. you need more info. you need actually proof there are DB players attacking you. that players with a guild tag of (CHEM) are infact doing this.

So to answer your question yes i did look at the screen shot. i look at all of it. you’ll also notice he is asking for people to check out an event that happened 8 hours earlier. 1 pm hackers were messing with them, 9pm he post’s asking for someone come to keep to check it out.

we’ve already had our thread locked once. so how about you send the info to arenanet and lets just move on.

HOw do you know they are dragon brand? also how do you know the guild is CHEM?

not to be the devil’s advocate because clearly something is happening. but to not be able to target anything then claim you know who it was.

mauler.5694:

How is it that DB is just climbing out of tier 5. That ocean coverage is worthy of much higher tier.

We lost alot of our NA guild awhile ago and 1 of our Oceanic guilds. our NA was like your guys night time. but worse. the number ranged close to 1000 people overall moved to BG and mostly to SoS. we still get outmanned Buff’s during NA primetime but we have learned how to make the best of it.

because of that we’ve had a couple NA guilds move to our server which has allowed us to cover more then 1 BL/BG during NA primetime.

Yet there is a good possibility were going to get put down another tier again.

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

You know… I am officially branding Dragonbrand the mystery gnome server after a few nights of this match up.

YB and Mag wake up to have our precious towers and keeps reset by opponents we only see in our periphery.

And this week has been my favorite week so far.

Kinda like how the fridge light works eh? lol

Disen.8620:

Richard Nixon.6573:

A brief history of DB: We were in the upper tiers since the start of the game, even since the beta iirc. We had a large WvW population with the same great Oceania presence we have today. But we had a large exodus of guilds leave for SoS, so we ended up with a weakened daytime presence (like we still do) with a night presence that was about equal to the upper tiers- hence we started getting absolutely demolished.

It took about 2 months to finally get out of that downward spiral, and once we stabilized, we ended up with a similar balance that we have today- weaker daytime but a strong nighttime (again, thanks to our Oceania players who didn’t jump ship <3 ). In the bottom tiers, where even daytime coverage is limited, we would just control the map almost 24 hours a day. So we’ve been climbing the rankings until the daytime presence of our opponents is finally greater than ours, creating the unique asymmetrical balance we have in our matches.

It seems we may have gotten a few transfers, but our daytime coverage has been mostly the same since we stabilized. We’ve got potential, but definitely quite a way to go to continue to move up more tiers.

Any corrections from DBers with better memories than I are welcome

Edit: I’d also be happy to read brief histories of Maguuma and Yak’s too, if anyone is willing to share them!

This is pretty much 98% accurate except for a few things:

We had the first mass fallout of guilds after we fought and lost badly against Crystal Desert and Blackgate(Not sure about BG being the 3rd server). We kept falling down a couple of rankings, and at this point a bunch of big guilds(mostly NA presence) were starting to doubt whether it’s worth it to stay in DB or not a.k.a. they gradually stopped playing wvw and server morale was low overall and this pushed us down the rankings further. A few weeks later SoS was starting to climb up the ladder and we met for 1 match up where the next major guild fallout happened, the majority of our NA presence and some Oceanic presence guilds went on to hop into SoS.

Tbh I’m relieved DB had mass fallout at the early stages of wuvwuv, because of this we started gradually gaining a stronger community and server loyalty. This means that once we stop winning we won’t get hit as hard by a mass fallout like before which was just plain terrible.

I also want to add that ‘Dragonbrand’ is one of the best server names in GW2.

Not exactly. we were in teir 2 and fighting blackgate and CD after 4 days of winning we lost a major oceanic guild to blackgate. we ended up losing that match in the end during the next week matchup we dropped a tier and were put up against SoS and we lost 7 NA guilds then we fell hard for many weeks.

Yes they do. i’m unaware of the website though.

So do Maguuma and Yak both take turns dominating during the NA prime time??

Alright DB all of us NA players Know what we have to do!!!!

HOLD THE LINE!!!

We (dragonbrand)got 8 points on EB right now. lets see how the next 8 hours go.

great job guys

EnRohbi.2187:

TheFreshBrew.1958:

EnRohbi.2187:

I would like to personally apologize on behalf of the entire Dragonbrand server that we do not answer questions in the exact same manner that a Commander from borlis pass would do so.

We will try our hardest in the future to emulate your server community in every way possible within our means as humans on this planet.

/sarcasm

To be genuine for a moment though,
Why don’t you stop spying on our server’s team chat?

It’s starting to get disgraceful that you’d come spy on us, intentionally take something out of context, then come post it on the forums publicly to call us out on something that we actually didn’t even do in the first place.
Are you that arrogant?

Is that how /you/ want to represent the “culture that you created in your server”? Because it’s certainly souring my opinion on you guys.

It’s like you’re digging a hole, and won’t stop. Your responses have convinced me that there’s some exploiting going on. Which Reminds me of a few days ago of DH chat saying: "How did they get in here!?! "

Maybe Anet should do some investigation and put this matter to rest. Because as it stands, I’m not confident that we’re in the middle of a legit match-up.

It’s like you’re so convinced that nobody plays fairly but you that you’ve forgotten how to focus on anything else..

I would encourage Anet to do all the investigation they’re capable of, because it wouldn’t effect me, anyone I know, or our wvw force or effectiveness at all.

And if it gets the handful of exploiters (That every server has) off of Dragonbrand, then maybe it’ll sooth your paranoia.

Totally agree with this statement and after this, BP would still be the server planting spy’s in our server to watch our map chat.

If BP is trying to take the high road i’m not seeing it.

Grit.9061:

PredatoR.5247:

Does Darkhaven/Dragonbrand/Borlis Pass have a community website?
if yes what is it?

DB hasn’t had a unified community website since over 1000 people transferred off the server in the same week (including the creators of said website) a couple months ago.

We do have an unlimited seat mumble server and commanders communicate with different forms of voice chat regularly.

I didn’t know we have a server wide chat system. good to know.

PredatoR.5247:

Does Darkhaven/Dragonbrand/Borlis Pass have a community website?
if yes what is it?

SoS is looking for an off site to converse with our servers…. hmmm… i recall the last time something like that happen. just saying…

Dark Aidget.3879:

You gotta admit, looking through this thread and another, a couple of us did come off with ‘an excess of confidence.’ We’re really not that full of ourselves, just excited.

Definitely, this is a much better caliber of teams, and absolutely are we enjoying the battles. Huge relief to actually have to anticipate an enemy’s strategy and adapt our defense, and not just have to patrol terrain exploit areas for the sudden 30-man cheat team and their ten disposable golems.

i’m glad one of you were willing to own up to this. looking forward to further battles with you guys.

None of those guilds joined us though at the very least.

Ian.7380:

A hearty welcome to the guys from Darkhaven who came over! Good to have you.

So DH has people transfering over to BP? during a match against them… ouch we had that happen to us during 2 match one after the other really sucked.

i truly feel sorry for those who stick it out.

Arcadio.6875:

Having an advantage during Oceanic time is more preferable over having an advantage in NA time. Oceanic players log in right after NA players log out so any gains made by NA players are quickly stopped and turned around. Gains made by Oceanic players last far longer especially on weekdays when NA players can’t simply play in the morning or early afternoon. Having European coverage helps limit the Oceanic advantage, but I don’t imagine that comes into play outside the top tiers.

I think Dragonbrand has won this.

Well lets not jump to any conclusions. the week before last DB had the lead up till thursday and DH made a massive push and stayed up extra late to keep us from getting the lead back.

that was a close one though.

IF you see a mezmer run at the group CC him really fast. stop the Bomb before it even happens.

Kodiack.2783:

Typical BP. How about you worry about your current match-up.

BTW. who’s winning your match ?

-K

Not Borlis…. hehe 8-O

I can’t wait to get home and hold the line against the NA prime time zerg!!

??? match change up already?

Honestly i think there should always be some form of Fog of War in the match.

3 things you need to do to get badges.

1 get a group

2 Spam AoE’s

3 hit F like a mad man.

that easy

But i hear Kaineng is always looking for a few good men

Preacher.4836:

Most of the guilds in DB that have been here since launch have no inclination to leave, and that includes a huge part of our night time presence. We’ve stuck it out this far and now that we are having good close fights, why would we want to screw the tier balance up again by dropping down to a lower one?

Preacher

agreed.

also transfering servers atm in large numbers is really challenging i hear.

Syeria.4812:

RockonHarder.7235:

Syeria.4812:

Ethose.5694:

Littlefeather.8623:

Wintuo.1356:

…No server has a PvDoor time…

Are you saying that the one and only reason DB is leading in score is not their Night time presence?

Have you been in WvW past 11pm PST and seen their numbers compared to ours?

Yes DB does have a PvD time, its when American players are asleep, their server is not a US Server it is carried by its Asian presence, we all know it. You can be a nice guy if you want but I tell it like it is.

If it wasnt for them, DB would be lucky to get past 50k the whole week.

Lets see here… I can do this..

Are you saying that the one and only reason DH is 2nd in score is not their NA presence?

Have you been in WvW past 4pm PST and seen their numbers compared to ours?

Yes DH does have a PvD time, its when Asian players are asleep, their server is not a Foreign Server it is carried by its NA presence, we all know it. You can be a nice guy if you want but I tell it like it is.

If it wasnt for them, DH would be lucky to get past 50k the whole week.

The point is that WvW is a 24 hour game. DH is stronger at one time than DB is and DB is stronger for a longer period of time. It makes DB a stronger overall server and that is causing the win in points. You need to quit raging on DBs nightime/early morning presence because you have the same advantages every evening. What makes your primetime any better than DB’s?

Your example fails because it’s not a 1v1 match. Both NSP and DH have a US prime presence. DH doesn’t get serious PvDoor opportunities because NSP generally has a non-outmanned presence during that time.

Furthermore, I’d suspect that in a straight 1v1 matchup, DB would outright lose to DH. In a 1v1 with NSP, we’d probably see a very very close match, which either side could walk end up taking the victory.

It’s a 24 hour matchup, and so it’s a bit silly to complain about PvDoor. But it’s completely ridiculous for DB to try trash talk and act like their US prime time team does anything major to contribute to the score.

It is currently 5pm and DH control’s the majority of all NSP’s BL. plus there own BL plus major expanses in EB. your statement is not correct. NSP has an earlier primetime then you so you have got big windows to collect points.

We now have a que in EB during your primetime. in a 1v1 match things might go a bit different when you don’t have a 3rd server to collect points off of now.

The fact that you can’t identify which server I’m on is a bit telling about your understanding of the situation.

NSP has a habit of occasionally not showing up. In the first week of this matchup we had that problem on Thursday night, bringing what had been approximately a 7k point gap from first to third all the way out to 32k by final tally. For the past few hours, NSP has been outmanned in EB. Usually at this time we’re outnumbered, but won’t receive the outmanned buff until around midnight central. But the 2nd week of December is prime finals (or dead week) time for US colleges and universities. Populations are going to be all over the place until the new year.

Nothing to do with that i’m just looking at the big picture. the less finger pionting done the better.

The truth of the matter is both you and NSP put DB in the hurt locker. i’m a NA player and thats what happen’s. But we normally get massive reprieves during those long seiges because sooner or later the other server goes into the others backyard and cherry picks all your/their undefended territory.

Which is the same PvDoor crap you are accusing us of.

it happen’s all day long 24/7. your/their zerg get’s tunnel vision and then loses ground in the back and when your pressing on us. when you go to recapture we expand again ourselves.

This happens every night in EB for the last 2 weeks.

Syeria.4812:

Ethose.5694:

Littlefeather.8623:

Wintuo.1356:

…No server has a PvDoor time…

Are you saying that the one and only reason DB is leading in score is not their Night time presence?

Have you been in WvW past 11pm PST and seen their numbers compared to ours?

Yes DB does have a PvD time, its when American players are asleep, their server is not a US Server it is carried by its Asian presence, we all know it. You can be a nice guy if you want but I tell it like it is.

If it wasnt for them, DB would be lucky to get past 50k the whole week.

Lets see here… I can do this..

Are you saying that the one and only reason DH is 2nd in score is not their NA presence?

Have you been in WvW past 4pm PST and seen their numbers compared to ours?

Yes DH does have a PvD time, its when Asian players are asleep, their server is not a Foreign Server it is carried by its NA presence, we all know it. You can be a nice guy if you want but I tell it like it is.

If it wasnt for them, DH would be lucky to get past 50k the whole week.

The point is that WvW is a 24 hour game. DH is stronger at one time than DB is and DB is stronger for a longer period of time. It makes DB a stronger overall server and that is causing the win in points. You need to quit raging on DBs nightime/early morning presence because you have the same advantages every evening. What makes your primetime any better than DB’s?

Your example fails because it’s not a 1v1 match. Both NSP and DH have a US prime presence. DH doesn’t get serious PvDoor opportunities because NSP generally has a non-outmanned presence during that time.

Furthermore, I’d suspect that in a straight 1v1 matchup, DB would outright lose to DH. In a 1v1 with NSP, we’d probably see a very very close match, which either side could walk end up taking the victory.

It’s a 24 hour matchup, and so it’s a bit silly to complain about PvDoor. But it’s completely ridiculous for DB to try trash talk and act like their US prime time team does anything major to contribute to the score.

It is currently 5pm and DH control’s the majority of all NSP’s BL. plus there own BL plus major expanses in EB. your statement is not correct. NSP has an earlier primetime then you so you have got big windows to collect points.

We now have a que in EB during your primetime. in a 1v1 match things might go a bit different when you don’t have a 3rd server to collect points off of now.

Greens Daily Ritual.9025:

RockonHarder.7235:

I thought if you near the Character name you could message them.

If you have them as a target, you can actually see their name and yes, you can message them. I have yet to message anyone from another server, although I have received some pretty hateful ones myself. Turns out most people do not like mesmers very much. Or at least my enemies. I’ve found out that a thief will rage faster than any other class when they get bested. I was referring more to open map chat. That would be quite messy. Wise choice by Anet not opening that can of worms.

The chance of the Map chat turning into a totally flame fest is way to high. doubtful you’ll find another mmo that risks that in there game.

Peetee.9406:

Not a fan of this scoring system at all.

I am not going to say that any server in Tier 2 would beat any server in Tier 1 but how are we ever going to find out if the server that has won in Tier 2 the last 3 weeks continues to go down in rating while the server that finishes in last in Tier 1 continues to go up.

That is a good question.

Stalemate until people get bored or tired?

I thought if you near the Character name you could message them.

Drede.4701:

I think he means the actual glick score is dropping on Yaks and going up on Mag and EB. Although looking at tier 5 this gets a bit more confusing. Why is DH taking the hit not Dragonbrand in a very close matchup? I’d assume it is because they only have a 5k lead on NSP and DB only has a 8k lead when both are about 50 rating points ahead of NSP

Yeah thats what i was refering to. sorry for not being clearer.

i was also looking at the tier 6 match-up and noticed that AV and SF were really close in score and rating but SF was dropping by 3 times the amount.

Yes i was refering to the movment in the evolution rating for each server.

i also hadn’t thought that the External site was using the same scoring system.

thanks though that clears it up for me.