Guild Wars 2

DoctorDing.5890:

For an example of what is wrong with trinity, go try to join a party in GW1 as a smiter monk or, even better, as a ranger.

Never played GW1 and I begin to understand why so people are relunctant to the trinity system. In this game it seems that monk was the healer and warrior the tank, right ?
Well … It is a totally stupid system, but I it is absolutly not what a good trinity system is supposed to be. Read my previous post to understand what is a good trinity sytem.

Are you afraid by the trinity system or by the fact that Anet is bad at doing a good trinity system ?
If you say the first answer, I would say you dont understand the trinity system and you shouldnt base your idea of the trinity system on GW1. If you say the 2nd answer, I can understand you.

Having specific roles that need to be filled, at all, isn’t hard trinity. It’s just encounter design. Hard trinity means here that any given class can only ever fill one role, period.

Nothing more wrong than that.
In games with hard trinity, most classes have more than one roles.
i.e, in WoW the druid can have 4 roles (tank, healer, melee damage dealer, range damage dealer). In fact only 4 classes (mage, warlock, rogue, hunter) have one role and this is specifically said to the players when they create their character. When you play a healer as a paladin, nobody tell you to switch to damage dealer or tank (except maybe in the 1% to guild). You choose your role and everybody is ok with that.

I was a healer shaman and I never had to switch damage dealer … even when the healer shaman was behind the other healers and when the melee damage shaman was better than other melee damage spec/classes. Nobody telled me to switch to an other role, and naturally I had access to raid like exactly all other healers, tanks and DDs of the game, what ever was their classes.

So if GW2 would work like that, if you choose to play a [insert class] healer, and if Anet does a good job in balancing classes, nobody should tell you to switch DD or tank.

Ok maybe this it wasnt the best example, but those classes have just 2 roles, compared to 4 if a clear holy quatuor power/condi/tank/healer was established.

How many roles an engie can perform in raid today ? a necro ? a guardian ? a rev ? a warrior ? a thief ?

There are different roles in a raid group and for each of these roles are different possible classes/builds to fill them.

You said this because you want “trinity”. But trinity (or quatuor if we add condi) isnt exactly that ?

If you want to shackle yourself to a rigid role then go right ahead and all power to you.

Isnt this already the case ?
Some class have to be spec condi to be accepted in raid, rangers have to be healer druid, chrono have to be tank etc …

It would be more sane if all classes could be clearly specialized in each role. i.e for guardian, zeal = direct damage, radiance = condi, valor = tank, honor = heal (and virtues becoming an “elite spec” that can be switched with DH). In fact what I wrote is already a bit the case but as the trinity is unofficial Anet dont search to balance honor guardian with druid, so the healer guardian cannot truly exist in competitive content.

So if would be a holy quatuor (not trinity).

Same for each classes, so you would no longer have to search a druid for your raid if you want a healer but a honor guardian/DH, a nature magic ranger/druid, a water ele/tempest, a blood magic necro/reaper, a tactics warrior/berserk, a shadow art thief/DD, an invention engie/scrapper or a salvation revenant/herald.

And we would have more choices than today concerning the build because each classes would have 4 style of gameplay and accepted in competitive content.

Don’t use the waypoints if you prefer running from place to place.

Stop saying this, you know the OP cannot do this. The whole game content is build about the fact you can TP instantly around the world. The event boss need TP and dungeons arent enough rewarding for the time you would need to travel to them.
I totally agree with the OP, but sadly I think it would need too much change.

+1.
When I see GW2 armors, I think “too much”, flashy and inefficient in combat.

Indeed, don’t bother with raiding here…raids are about adaptation and synergy between raid members. If you refuse to adapt your build and gear, then make your own lfg “all welcome”. Oh and record it, I’m interested in this expérience.

No I won’t. I agree raid is about (but not only) synergy and adaptation, but synergy and adaptation should’nt hurt the gameplay you like. I mean, it would be ok to adapt your character between some tanky builds, or some damage builds or some support builds, but not between a power build and a support build.

You can bring any group you want in raid dude.

But just like Dungeon before, it’s not because you can do it that pugs will accept you.

So I can but I cannot (or I can only if I find an open minded guild).

In the ideal world all build should be equal, but we live in the real world so that never happen.

This totally depends on the quality work of Anet. Yes, we will never have a 100% equality, but you can trend towards this. In WoW, when we have an empty slot for a dps, we dont search a fire mage, a assasination rogue or whatever, we search a DPS. Same for tank and heal. Why ? Because each spec is pretty balanced overall in PvE. The player skill is more important that the class/spec.
Its totally WTF when I read “search phalanx warrior full berserk” or something like that. It seems GW2 is a game from the early 2000s. Even at WoW vanilla you had more specs viable and accepted in raid.

For me it is totally WTF that Anet is ok with the fact that each class has only one style of build considered as viable.
Each classes should be have the capacity to fill each role (or delete the support and tanky trait lines for classes that should be only DPS …).

Yeah, realistically, things needed some serious balancing before they introduced raids.

Some people may be happy with being forced into certain classes and specs (and weapon types), but most people will just go and play a more established game, where you can (at this point) play pretty much any class and spec (with more equal results), if they want to raid.

Exactly. I search to be a valorous holy guide that supports his mates. If I absolutly want to raid and if I can do that in one game but not in other … well …

but dungeon are now FREE CONTENT. that is the real issue.

I would to say create new dungeons in HoT zones so.

This is pointless, and every class for dungeons should be DPS or it slows it down.

This game does not have the whole “trinity” system other MMOs have.

Isnt that paradoxal ? If it is not a trinity system, the DPS role shouldnt exist, no ?

Warrior
As of right now I havnt thought about anything for this profession, if I see any good ideas in the comment section I shall fill this in with that persons Idea and credit them

What about the Watcher ? A class inspired from the GoT Nightwatch or from the LOTR ranger. They would use spear as terrestrial weapon and would be good at providing defensive boons and healing.

Other idea : the Ruffian, or brawler, or brewmaster, would use beers and homebrew to boon himself and his allies. Would use staff at melee.

Nechromancer
As of right now I havnt thought about anything for this profession, if I see any good ideas in the comment section I shall fill this in with that persons Idea and credit them

What about the Voodoo Sorcerer, or Hexxer or Witcher Doctor ? Would use focus at main-hand and he would hex his enemies.

Elementalist
As of right now I havnt thought about anything for this profession, if I see any good ideas in the comment section I shall fill this in with that persons Idea and credit them

Runemaster ? Would use mace or hammer and runes which would be similar to wells but they could be changing with the elemental attunement. Maybe could use runes as tattoos also.

Hello, I’m a relatively new player and I created a build in my own.
The goal is to provide a maximum of aegis and a bit of healing (through Pure of Heart) for me and my allies.
I’m usually the best healer in arena (unless a druid is around) and sometimes the best damage dealer and buff provider, currently at emerald division.

If you have thoughts about it, advises or something, I would be glad to read them !

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAT5ensABFdilCBWkittendiFKiSu239gHrAGgn8qWbyAA-TpBBABUt/wCHEgAeAA7fEAivMAAXAAA

Hello !
Me and my brother started the game this summer and we reached the max lvl just some days before the release of HoT.
Now we have just right now finished the vanilla and HoT stories and have collected some random exotic gears for all slots.
But we arent sure what to do now. We are casuals, only playing week-end and holidays because of job obligations (so 8-12 h a week at best). We have tested unrated pvp and it is fun but we dont want to that every time.

Any advices ? Thank you.

Like with any RPGs, I wanted a hybrid physical/magic class which is played mostly at melee range and that supports allies with buff and heal. Guardian was the closest to this description.

Now I play an archer damage dealer.
DH is fun but not what I expected.

All other companies are selling their xpac at least for $20.
GW2 is a buy to play game, they make their profit by selling games, not with subs. So what they did seems logic to me.

I am also a casual player, but I play with my brother and sometimes we have some difficulties but never insuperable.
Advices :
- find a friend to play with. This is a MMO after all, you shouldn’t be able to solo everything.
- look at your class forum to improve your gameplay
- if your are alone and you suddenly cross a group of players, follow them

I think it would be better if you could have access to the longbow and traps without specing into DH.
So specing to an elite spec would mean “new traits + other F1, F2, etc”.

I like the expansion.
Maps are beautifull, “leveling” is fun, story is interesting.

Only a (very big) disappointement : the dragon hunter elite spec is the exact opposite of what I was looking when I chose the guardian as my first character few months ago.
Far more interested by the druid and the revenant/herald

LucosTheDutch.4819:

I can kinda see where the OP is coming from. I think he worded it poorly but I do get his point.

I do want to see the core classes getting some fancy new stuff that doesn’t need you to go into an elite spec trait line. For example stuff like the new elite shout and new elite signet that the guardians got (granted, we got them instead of the elite tomes that we used to have but still).

This.
For example as a guardian I hate our elite spec, I didnt make a guard to be a ranger wannabe, so it seems I get nothing new as a true guardian.
Maybe this feeling is less true with some other classes. Yes a reaper is clearly a necromancer, a big part of the warriors wanted to play like a furious berserker, etc, but the DH isnt a guardian, nor in terms of gameplay nor in terms of roleplay.
If the get options you clearly didnt want when you signed the contract (when you create the character), it is like not getting options at all.

Extreme.8350:

You only have to put 1 trait point in the new trait line to unlock it its not like you have to play an entirely new class

Never said the contrary. It seems you missed my point.

I’m sad that core classes don’t recieve anything in that fist xpac.

Druid gets glyphs.
Ranger gets nothing.

Dragon Hunter gets traps.
Guardian gets nothing.

And so on for every classes. Each elite classes have 4-5 more skills than the core classes. It’s unfair considering the elite classes in an alternative and not an upgrade.
What happens when, like a kind of 80% of the guardians, you are absolutely not interested by the new elite classe counterpart ? Answer : the xpac brings 0 new skills for you.

What would have done ArenaNet ? This :

Ranger gets 4-5 venom (or something else) skills.
When switching to Druid, venom skills are replaced by glyphs.

Guardian gets 4-5 new kind of skills.
When switching to DH, those new skills (or the medi skills, or the consec skills) are replaced by traps.

What would have done ArenaNet if they had even more vision ?

For each class, one of the core spec becomes an “elite base spec”, preferably the one wich defines the best the class, wich is replaced when switching to an other elite spec.
Example :
Guardian has to choose 2 spec between the 4 core specs (honor, valor, zeal, radiance) and has one elite spec : virtues. When the Guardian becomes a Dragon Hunter, the virtues spec is replaced by the DH spec.
Also the virtues spec permits to wield hammer (wich is replaced by bow when switching to DH).

Some of you will said that this system will create a skill number inflation, but on the contrary it prevents it :
When the next new elite specs will appear, the new skills will each time replace the “replaceable skills” (the venom skills on my ranger example).

What do you think ?

I didnt said WoW is better than GW2. What I wanted to said is that the Blizz team is better in communication and testing.
Except the buisness model and the bigger profit for Blizz, that maybe allow better communication, all other arguments (cartoon graphic ….) are totally irrevelant.

I don’t think it is because WoW has cartoon graphic or low gameplay risk taking that Blizz can make beta testing and communication more impressive. Anet could also do that.

Durzlla.6295:

And if you play as a Hunter you get the new stuff you got last xpac taken away and completely scrapped for the next xpac, same can be said with Druid in many situations.

I’d rather take slightly unpolished content than to have some of my favorite things REMOVED because of stupid reasons like “it was too complicated for some players”.

Well this is a unrelated problem. The fact is, at the beginning of a Beta, you already know what your class will look like at the next xpac. Maybe you don’t like what you discover, but at least you don’t have to wait the end of a beta to know if you like or not.

Blizzard is more serious and professionnal than Anet. They provide a true beta server and all classes get their new stuff for the very beginning, so you can test whatever class you want and when you want.

no one needs to wait for class A or B

Don’t understand that. If all classes can be tank, dps and healer, no specific class is required even in a trinity game.

Yimiko.8524:

The Trinity system prevents even attempting to work outside your locked role with rigid mechanics. Healers don’t deal decent damage, tanks can’t heal, DPS can’t handle taking hits, etc. .

False. This is only true in the current trinity system games, it is not universal.
Back in 2005 when I played a melee DPS shaman at WoW I also was an off-tank and an off-healer. Even at Wotlk I remember I saved my party during a boss encounter when all our true healers were dead, my party survived 2 mores minutes with my heals and we killed the boss. And I remember our paladin healer provided some DPS and was able to tank decently some dozens of seconds. And our druid tank could easily switch to DPS in the middle of an encounter.
When Arenanet claimed they want a soft trinity, I thought all classes would be like the vanilla shaman, paladin or druid :
- even if you spec in DPS you continue to support and tank,
- even if you spec in Support you continue to dps and tank
- even if you spec in Tanking you continue to dps and support.

But what I see true in game is only the first sentence.

Arenet should have create a soft trinity like they claimed.

Tanks, DPS and support roles shoud exist, but …
- Tanks are just a bit more tanky than non-tanks.
- DPS deal just a bit more damage than non-DPS.
- Supports provide healing and boons a bit just more than non-Supports.

And every classes can do every roles.
If a party cannot find a support, a DPS switch to this role or 3-4 DPS change one damage skill for a support one.

What people want is more coordination and to be considered as a fat tank guy, a nice guy who helps others, or a killing machine. It is not a problem if the border between those roles is very thin, what is important is to be categorized because most people love that.

Legenfleet.4603:

That’s a crying shame, I already unequipped all my equipment and stuff over 5 characters to stuff in the bank

I am a noob that bought GW2 two weeks ago and even me understood the revenant is only playable during BWE …

the amount of skills you can use doesn’t change.

No, the core class hasnt access to the new skills.

the amount of traits you can use doesn’t change.

Never said the contrary.

There is no difference between a core class and a specialisation.

A Reaper has 11 more skills than the Necro : 1 healing, 4 utilities, 1 elite, 5 weapons.

The only “handicap” is that one of your three spec cannot be changed.

MiniEquine.6014:

All of this will make much more sense as more elite specializations are released. The system is in its early stages with only one iteration right now, but elite specs are the additions to the core classes. As stated earlier, the elite specs are not themselves new classes.

I agree, but for now having just one elite spec and nothing else is awkward if you don’t like the new spec.
The core classes should recieve some love for players that don’t want to play elite spec.

For example, if druid is effectively a non-pet ranger (according to speculations), what will gain the pet using rangers ? Nothing.

Many people will be playing Elite Specs at first, but these numbers will change as new meta information comes out.

I highly doubt for the guardian case.

DevilLordLaser.8619:

Zalladi.4652:

…Players will still be able to use the skills of the Elite Specializations without having to specialize into it…

This is actually incorrect. In order to use traps, you need to be a Dragonhunter. You can’t use traps without the Dragonhunter elite spec slotted, and same with the other Elite specs’ new skills. No Shouts without Reaper/Tempest, no Rage without Berserker, no Physicals without Daredevil, etc. Sorry.

This is I wanted to underline. Guardian is only getting the choice to remind like in vanilla or to be morphed in a “new class that shares a loot of abilities with the guardian but also has something new”, but the core classe has nothing new.

It is like, if at WoW (or an other game like that), the warrior is getting a new spec for each xpac, but each specs are never getting something new. As a protection warrior, what do you want is something new for you as a protection warrior, having a new alternative spec is cool at best, but generally meh.

Continually adding new skills, traits, and weapons to the the core specializations would defeat the purpose of the elite specializations.

Yes new weapons and traits should be only avaible to elite spec. Their purpose is to change the gameplay of a core class. But I don’t understand why the core class shouldnt recieve aswell new skills (not necessary new family of skills) that would fit with the core spec.

For what I understood, each core classes will be paired with an “elite spec class”. And if Anet is happy with this system, each core classes will be paired with a new elite for each further expac.
But what do will gain the players that set themselves on the core classe ?

Dragon Hunter gains traps in addition to core guardian abilities. But what is new for Guardian at the release of Hot ? Nothing. If this logic reminds the same for each xpac, core classes will never drastically change. They will never get new abilities. Same builds forever.

Don’t you think each core should recieve new abilities wich would be only avaible to them and not the elite specs ?

i.e shouts and greatsword for the reaper, but venom skills or something for the necromancer / traps and bow for the DH, but banners of something for the guardian etc, and those new core skills would be automatically replaced by the elite skills.

I heard from a friend of a cousin of an anet employee that the hammer engineer elite spec is already planned to be called Thor, so no Batman would be too much.

More seriously, I could be ok for a delay if anet gives to guard a better spec.

I didnt read if it was already said, but I think your traits have a problem.
Your adept and grandmaster major traits are useless if you dont use LB and traps.
While you will likely use LB or traps if you play DH, i think you should have the freedom to not use them. In fact, I’m sure we will find melee traps builds and LB non-traps build. With your traits, they will be ineffective.

If all spec would work like that, it would be ok, but in other spec you are never forced to use specific weapons or skills.
It is also a problem with the current beta traits, because Pure of Sight forces you to use a range weapon. It is unfair and should be reworked.

Does the core classes has something new without the elit spec ?
What is the differences between a today guardian and a non-DH Guardian ? Will we have access to traps witout being DH ?

They seem a bit stupid, except maybe on a necro.

I would love a shamanistic class, as i played a wow shaman as a main character, but I doubt it will be create in that game.

For Charr, shaman = bad mage.

The Master.2893:

I apologize if someone above already posted this… however this game was specifically designed to “not have the traditional MMORPG ‘holy trinity’ of tank, dps, and healer”.

So they made it so that nobody could heal, or even pure tank for that matter. And everyone had DPS options.

IF they buffed healing, which is a fair contention, they would “break their pledge to not have a holy trinity”.

“Not have the traditionnal holy trinity” doesnt mean tanks and healers are missing. It means tanks and healers arent required in any content.
In fact Anet tried to replace it by another trinity, DPS/control/support. And if support is not heal, heal is support.
So some classes, when specialized in support, should tend to be playable as “healer” (a la gw2, not 100% dedicated healer ok). And in fact, Ele and Engi can (and some other classes in lesser extent). But the PvE content is so trivial and the healing power so worthless, this support style is useless. Not because Anet wanted that, but because Anet failed.

Brother Grimm.5176:

TexZero.7910:

Or its actually not a problem. The problem lies with the players who have an antiquated mindset that you need healing power to be an effective support.

^THIS^

Explain to everyone WHY there must be a need to put points into HEALING POWER?

So why Healing Power exists ?

Normally if you want to improve your offensive capabilities you put points into power, precision, etc, right ?
So normally, if you would like to improve your support capabilities, you should put points into healing power, boon duration, etc … Isn’t this logic ?

Wouldn’t you think the system is weird if you were “forced” to put points into healing power to improve your offensive capabilities ?

The problem lies with the players who have an antiquated mindset that you need power to be an effective damage dealer.

Explain to everyone WHY there must be a need to put points into POWER?

You see ?

Stats should be base on the role you can choose.

Power
Increases all damage done. Direct damages are more increased.
Pressure damage stat.

Fury
Increases your chance to deal critical damages. Also increases your critical damages on low health targets.
Spike damage stat.

Malice
Increases all damage. Condition damages are more increased.
Condition damage stat.

Defense
- Decreases direct damages you take.
- Increases the duration of the defensive boons you apply (Aegis, Protection, Regeneration and Vigor)
- Increases the healing you done
The defensive support stat which permits you to increases the survival of your team. Best survival stat against direct damages.

Boldness
- Increases the duration of the offensive boons you apply (Fury, Might, Quickness, Retaliation)
- Increases your maximum hit points.
The offensive support stat, wich increases the damages of your team. Worst survival stat against direct or condition damages, but “jack-of-all-trades” survival stat because effective against both.

Expertise
- Increases the duration of conditions you inflict.
- Decreases the duration and damages of conditions you take.
- Increases the duration of movement related boons you apply (Resistance, Stability, Swiftness)
The control support stat, wich increases movement and control effect of your party while decreasing those of your enemies. Best survival stat against condition damages.

We have then 3 damage stats and 3 “support + survival” stats.
Each item has only 2 attributes, one damage and one support/survival.
So can choose to be a pressure damage dealer that also increases the survival of its party, or a beserker that try to kill quickly an enemy while controling the others. Or a tanky defensive guy who deal condition damage.

Harper.4173:

It’s weird because this was advertised as a no-tank, no-healer game. I’m wondering why people who want these made their way to GW2. Were they uninformed?

The game “advertised” me I cannot be a 100% healer but never advertised me I cannot be a half DPS / half support player. On the contrary when I used the build editor I saw that I can be a support oriented player that also does damage. In the top of that I also saw I can wear support oriented gear. So I concluded I can play a support characted in the same way I played a support characted at Battefield 3 (the guy that launchs medic pack between 2 shots). Maybe not a 100% healer like in other MMOs but a support player nevertheless.

Because why a serious dev team would provide support tools in a game in wich they are useless ?

So I bought the game the last week and chose to be a f*****g hammer/staff wielder guardian charr that protects his warband with mostly boons, controls and some heals.
And if a cannot play that support character when I reach the end game, I will leave this beautifull game.

Talyn.3295:

…
Rangers are decent enough, mostly used for Spotter and Frost spirit. They can do great condition damage since the recent changes as well. Mesmer is similar to guardian and can fill many of its roles nicely as well. But its timing takes a bit longer to master.

Necro has become slightly more useful in Dungeons, but still is hampered by its history and not always welcomed by pugs.

If you want something that is known for support, your probably gonna be looking at guardian. Guardian has alot of tools that primarily are used to keep other party members from taking damage. (Blinds, blocks, reflects, regen etc)

I hoped that helped a bit.

Thank you for your advise. It helped me.
I also saw that guardian has good support tools, however I am more used to play the “savage magic guy” than the “light magic knight”, which is why I wanted the ranger (and above all the druid in the next xpac).
Maybe I will try the two.

Is the ranger welcomed in dungeon and other group content ?

Manu.6078:

I’m sorry to tell you there is no holy trinity in this game and will never be

Don’t understand why you are telling there is no holy trinity. Are talking about the tank/dps/heal trinity ? Yes I know.
I saw that arenanet has stated that this trinity was replaced by the dps/control/support one.
So I assume we can make a more support oriented character, and by that I am speaking about a half dps / half boon provider like those hybrid DPS we could find on vanilla WoW.

Or I am totally wrong ? Or you didnt read my post ?

Hi
I juste bought the game and installing it.

I m attracted by the Charr Ranger but I am not sure it will fit to my game style.

I usually play support character on MMOs (buffer, debuffer, healer …). My funniest experience was back to vanilla/BC WoW with my enhancement shaman. At this time this spec was a true hybrid, half DPS half boon provider, with even some healing and tanking abilities. A part of the rotation consisted to provide boons to my party and it was for me very rewarding to see my warrior mates dealing big damage thanks to me.

Do you think I can know again this experience with a ranger ? Would I be useful for my group (outdoor, dunegons, fractal, pvp …) as a support ?
If not, with another class ?

I made a build if you want to see what I have in mind :

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNIQNBHhF6kHRoZFsVFwXFgoFMUIU8A0uPwv7zQA4t+s/DV8xO-e

Thank you