Guild Wars 2

lookitsandrea.8531:

The biggest problem, as has been mentioned a few times in this long thread, with an /inspect feature is the lack of privacy and user control.

A better solution, for both sides of the argument, would probably just be an easier way to ping your gear and skill build (like in GW1). If a group requires you do it, you may either comply or don’t. If you aren’t interested in sharing your build, then find another group. But at least this way, players have a choice of whether or not to share that information rather than having no control.

I posed this question earlier, and no one responded. But how is /inspect an invasion of privacy? I’m not trying to get your social security number, i’m just getting to see what type of gear and sockets you have.

In WoW, i could’ve been inspected one time, or a thousand times, i could never tell you, because i have no idea that i am being inspected.

Mirta.5029:

Scrambles.2604:

Personally, i rarely pug in-game. About 99% of my runs involve using gw2lfg.com.

using gw2lfg is pugging -_-
Pugging means running with a group in which you don’t know the people – they’re not your guildies and not your friends.

yeah, sorry. When i said “pug in-game” i meant i dont stand in LA shouting “LFG COF P1.” The point being, with gw2lfg, i have a better idea of the group i’m getting into.

ArchonWing.9480:

There’s been any number of discussion out there that either the game is too easy and takes no skill, or that something isn’t really challenging and requiring of skill, but just frustrating.

So pray tell., since I haven’t played any other MMO, tell me what “skill” is, and what ideal challenges would be.

skill is determined by situational awareness and timing.

Knowing when to use the right skill at the right time.

This was true in WoW and it’s true in GW2, also.

Uruz Six.6594:

Scrambles.2604:

When in reality, neither group of player wants to play with the other. Which is natural, because they get different things out of the game. The only time you will be subjected to the “elitists” standards is when you try to compete with their ranks, which it sounds like the majority of people against /inspect try to avoid already.

Well, here’s the thing.

/e raises hand like Captain Kirk asking why God needs a starship

If neither group of players want to play with each other, then why is either group PUG-ing in the first place?

It sounds to me the more reasonable assumption is if you want to keep your teams to your own standards, you do it with friends and guildies.

Personally, i rarely pug in-game. About 99% of my runs involve using gw2lfg.com.

On gw2lfg, you generally see two types of CoF p1 runs. “All classes welcome” and “Zerker war/guard/mes”

The difference is, one group just wants to run CoF (i fall into this group) and the other group wants to run CoF as fast and optimally as possible.

If you put together a run on gw2lfg with certain expectations, but don’t advertise them, then you only have yourself to blame.

Tolmos.8395:

That said, why am I against it? Because the people who want it the most, and abuse it the most, are folks who want to be CARRIED, not elitists. They don’t want their team to be optimal because it brings out the best in themselves; they want the team to be optimal so they can get run through by the best and have others make up for their own shortcomings.

this is a pretty wild claim, my friend. You’re gunna need to back this up with a little more information.

It seems the only people optimizing their runs are the standard 4 wars and a guardian zerker runs. And the only reason it is optimal is solely because the combination of the 5 individuals outputs the highest DPS. How does this involve being carried?

I mean, maybe if it was one person trying to swindle a bunch of zerker warriors to run them through, that would be more to your point…but that person certainly wouldn’t benefit from /inspect.

Uruz Six.6594:

Bright.9160:

Except, your arguments all boil down to ‘I don’t want to be excluded for running a terrible build’. You also all seem to be under the impression that you will be kicked once someone sees you’re running Knights or Soldier’s for example. Whilst I personally despise Soldier’s gear, I know it has it’s uses, and it can be a crutch for newer players to harder content, because of survivability.

There is a long way to go between ‘pants-on-head-kittened builds’ and ‘zerker or gtfo’ builds.

And to be honest, the anti-elitist crowd in here IS acting more elitist than the actual elitist crowd. It’s like looking at a group of gay people beating the ever living kitten out of someone for just saying he thinks being gay is unnatural (for the record, I don’t believe that, it’s just an analogy), and then feeling morally superior for doing so.

ProxyDamage.9826:

This has been discussed to death and back.

It’s pretty simple: most people of any value or relevance think it’s a good idea, bad players and leeches think it’s the devil cause they’re afraid they can’t be carried anymore. Good players think it’s a good idea/don’t care because, worse case scenario, they just don’t party with people they wouldn’t want to party with anyways. Crappy players know they’ll take longer to find a party and it’ll mostly be others like them, so nobody will drag them along.

Done to death. This particular horse isn’t even a carcass anymore but a fine paste. Game needs inspect for better pugging. Will, hopefully, get it eventually, but hardly a priority. Meanwhile just try to stick with partying with people you know. As of right now I don’t join random parties unless I know more others in it, and that we’re all good enough to carry the rest. And usually when one of us is the leader so we can kick any dead weight “too heavy” to carry.

Remember: If you’re against /inspect, you’re obviously a crappy build / bad player / leech. Oh, and you’re the elitist too.

Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m gonna have to get my cognitive dissonance meter replaced. These suckers aren’t cheap…

Without using intentionally incendiary language, it seems the players that care most about performing at their best— through practice and fine-tuning gear and builds, are also the ones that would like to see /inspect.

The players that play for fun—-use builds they enjoy, don’t care about getting the most optimal gear—- are worried they will be subjected to the same standards as the top tier players. They feel that /inspect will expedite the “elitists” ability to subjugate players that don’t perform to their standards.

When in reality, neither group of player wants to play with the other. Which is natural, because they get different things out of the game. The only time you will be subjected to the “elitists” standards is when you try to compete with their ranks, which it sounds like the majority of people against /inspect try to avoid already.

So, let’s try to be more open minded, and realize that you payed $60 bucks to play this game your way. No tool is going to force you to play someone else’s way, unless that tool hijacks your character and allows someone to respec you.

why is being /inspected considered an “invasion of privacy?” I would consider it more of an inconvenience if i got msged all the time “Hey man can you link me your sword i wanna see what it is?”

I mean, if your toon is sitting in lion’s arch while your afk, and i come up, /inspect you, check out your cool gear, and leave…what’s the issue? How do you even know you got inspected??

If someone wants to see your gear before a dungeon, i can understand your objection. But if the dungeon your running is contingent on your gear (aka full zerker CoF) and you don’t want to share you gear, you probably don’t belong there in the first place. You may be perfectly capable of completing the dungeon, but you still lack the requested criteria for the group. If said criteria was not specifically requested initially, (if you joined an all classes welcome, but the party leader says you need zerker gear) then someone else messed up.

tl;dr /inspect =/= invasion of privacy

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

snip

When i say “legitimate players” i mean "non-elitists.’ Stop taking everything so personally. An opinion is only worth as much as you can defend it. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but that doesn’t mean everyone’s opinions carry the same weight, out-right.

I could say “In my opinion, GW2 is more of a first person shooter.” If i can prove that GW2 shares similar elements with FPS’s then my opinion carries more weight. On second thought, i don’t know why i am explaining this to you.

I really don’t know anymore. We sort of got off track. Maybe we both just like arguing.

I’m simply going to chalk it up to you feel we need it, I don’t feel we do, and the only people that can make any sort of final call on it’s necessity is Anet.

by the amount of kitten-dropping you were engaged in, i venture to say only one of us likes arguing

but we can agree to disagree. However, i will also continue to actively disagree with everyone else in this thread.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Nikaido.3457:

CETheLucid.3964:

Why do you want to go a step further? Why do you need a /inspect that the game doesn’t already cover in the gear ping mechanic?

Because people can and do lie. They still get kicked mid run because it’s obvious when someone is lying but it would be preferable to avoid that pest altogether.

I acknowledge that there probably are players who will “lie” about their gear. However, to get away with that initial lie, they a) have to actually have the acceptable gear to ping; and b) it has to resemble the gear they hope to get away with wearing.

If someone is intent on lying, they could wear the “right” gear, be inspected, then change and hope to get away with it. You’re hoping that the fear that they could be “inspected” mid run will deter them. Nothing will deter such people.

As far as convenience, wouldn’t a one-click feature to “ping equipped gear” also serve this function? Mid-run, say you suspect Joe of wearing MF. “Joe, ping gear now.” If Joe takes the time to re-equip 13 or more pieces, you should notice the delay.

The two sides in this debate are never going to come to agreement. Why not look for a solution that might be responsive to both groups’ concerns? An opt-out on inspect might also work, but /inspect has a negative stigma that ping gear does not seem to share.

I think an opt out would be a good solution. But you would still run into the same initial problem. If you can’t be /inspected then one may assume you have something to hide, and that in itself would get you denied access to a group.

so the best solution is to just implement it as it is PvE. And maybe increase the size of the ignore list, because apparently these non-excluding, anti-elitist players also have full ignore lists, haha.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

snip

When i say “legitimate players” i mean "non-elitists.’ Stop taking everything so personally. An opinion is only worth as much as you can defend it. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but that doesn’t mean everyone’s opinions carry the same weight, out-right.

I could say “In my opinion, GW2 is more of a first person shooter.” If i can prove that GW2 shares similar elements with FPS’s then my opinion carries more weight. On second thought, i don’t know why i am explaining this to you.

Star Ace.5207:

Scrambles.2604:

TooBz.3065:

In no way does a debate on an inspect function in any way equate to a debate on gay marriage. It’s a false comparison.

The point was about advocating against something that doesn’t effect you. People that advocate against gay marriage won’t be effected by gays being able to marry, just like the people that advocate against /inspect won’t be effected by the addition of that tool.

Am i the only one here that is curious what gear people are wearing and how it’s socketed, that also doesn’t have every skin in the game memorized? Why does everyone assume this tool will only be used for maliciousness?

Scrambles, it will affect the community on the long-or even, short- run. So even though it seemingly doesn’t affect “us”, it really does by making it “official” that it’s OK to discriminate based on gear. In short, it indirectly promotes a toxic community atmosphere, so it matters to all, whether they care or not about the issue-I am rather happy that ANet isn’t paying heed to those who want /inspect, because it means they care about the community and their game more than satisfying the false “needs” of a few.

To conclude, it won’t make the game better for all, so it won’t be added-and that’s fine by me. Gear-centric people can still find like-minded companions through other means-there’s no need to give a monkey any gun (no offense to monkeys to be sure.)

Feel free to disagree, though I am kind of sure that ANet realizes how dangerous such a “tool” that would be. You could use such inspect tool in a healthy manner, but even current game history indicates otherwise. No offense intended, and feel free to think differently-I just hope I made my point clear.

I could see people being so vehemently against DPS meters for fear of elitism. Not that i agree, but i’ve grown to expect it. But we’re talking about /inspect! I mean, seriously, it’s JUST an inspect!!

I know you guys like to hold hands and sing songs and never be criticized, but this is getting ridiculous. “Elitists” are suddenly the boogie man of this game. Yet no one has come to defend them. I am starting to believe these elitists don’t exist.

You can continue to make these wild, baseless claims about how /inspect will ruin the community. I can’t argue against that, because i don’t have evidence it wont, but you also don’t have evidence that it will make the community toxic.

I’ve got this view of /inspect as being a simple feature that lets curious and new players look at peoples shiny gear without bothering them. But “elitists” have already done so much damage to this community that any suggestion to add a useful tool is outright decried for fear of empowering these “elitists.”

Onshidesigns.1069:

Scrambles.2604:

First they take our World pvp. Doesn’t work with the team aspect of the DE system.
Then they take our DPS meters. Why do you want more screen clutter?
Then our /inspect cosmetic only with player/guild message and profiles
Now they come for our duels… I think this will be add over time

i guess you’ve proven my point. The general attitudes you hear from people tend to be against these features.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

No offense, but this is what i’ve gathered from your posts.

“I dont want to see /inspect added. I don’t plan on using it, i don’t plan on being in a situation where it would be used against me. You may want to use it, but your reasons are not good enough, because people i purposely don’t play with may use it against me.”

Well, that’s rather kitten y of you, but ok.

It doesn’t matter that I have accepted and acknowledged your points (and others), have even conceded that you have valid arguments, I’m just the kitten here it seems.

I have never stated that your reasons or any other are not good enough. I have stated that using the ‘let me play my way’ is a weak argument. I have also given my opinion with valid reasons behind my opinion.

You seem to feel that because I don’t agree with you, I am not a legitimate player. That because I may not use it, or may not group with those that use, that I have no right to offer my thoughts or preferences. The keyword there is ‘may.’

Yes, I have declared that I am against it, and have argued heatedly my reasons as to why. But never once have I EVER told anyone that their opinion was wrong, invalid, or not good enough for being for it.

I will agree to disagree with you on whether or not this feature should be implemented and to its usefulness in general. However, I will not argue with an kitten that opts to attack me as a person when he cannot refute my argument or make me change my view. You don’t want to see my view, fine, but you aren’t going to change my opinion

If you want to discontinue this debate that is fine. I never said you weren’t a legitimate player. I could careless about how you play or what you do with your time, as long as it doesn’t effect me. But advocating against tools i would like to see in the game that you wouldn’t use does effect me.

I respect your right to have an opinion, but i will only respect your opinion when you’ve adequately defended it.

edit; and please don’t take this so personally remember we’re all simple people that enjoy the same game.

locoman.1974:

Scrambles.2604:

yeah this thread will probably be merged into the giant mass that is the duel request thread.

There’s is a surprising amount of opposition to putting duels into this game. Something about not wanting to ever have to press “decline” on a duel. Who knows…

First they take our World pvp.
Then they take our DPS meters.
Then our /inspect
Now they come for our duels…

There is a trend with MMOs and especially this game, where NO ONE can be a loser. Everyone has to win everything, every time. Even if that means progressive homogenization and brain-dead difficulty levels.

eeer… they didn’t take any of those away, at least not in this game… it just never had them in the first place..

yeah, i know. Since this thread is going to be obliterated shortly i figured i would rant about the state of MMOs in general. GW2 is just a reflection of the direction MMOs seem to be going.

yeah this thread will probably be merged into the giant mass that is the duel request thread.

There’s is a surprising amount of opposition to putting duels into this game. Something about not wanting to ever have to press “decline” on a duel. Who knows…

First they take our World pvp.
Then they take our DPS meters.
Then our /inspect
Now they come for our duels…

There is a trend with MMOs and especially this game, where NO ONE can be a loser. Everyone has to win everything, every time. Even if that means progressive homogenization and brain-dead difficulty levels.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Broadicea.8294:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

No, I don’t care to group with Elitists, but I don’t care to enable them either. I don’t want to reinforce that their ‘attitude’ is ok, when it in fact is not.

Its like giving a crack addict his next dosage. Are you an addict no? So it doesn’t affect you right? Wrong.

You don’t hand someone trying to commit suicide a gun or a razor blade.

You don’t enable the behavior that you are trying to reduce/get rid of.

Why can’t you let us play the way we want to play? You won’t be in our groups, we won’t bother you in map chat, in fact you’ll only ever glimpse us as we pass by each other in Lion’s Arch. Why do you have to be so controlling?

Why can’t you let me play how I want to play? I want to not have to worry about someone giving me crap because I choose to wear x over y, or because I choose to use a staff over daggers.

Why are you so controlling in telling me that I have to accept being inspected, whether I want to or not. Even if not by you specifically, by someone else. Potentially someone that has nothing to do with my play, just wants to be a kitten to someone.

The ‘let me play my way’ argument goes both ways. Your desire for /inspect infringes on my desire to be /inspect free. Both arguments are valid and have merit. However, its also the weakest argument that one can offer.

What if i told you, you could get /inspected without even noticing.

mindblown

Already addressed that in a previous post.

No offense, but this is what i’ve gathered from your posts.

“I dont want to see /inspect added. I don’t plan on using it, i don’t plan on being in a situation where it would be used against me. You may want to use it, but your reasons are not good enough, because people i purposely don’t play with may use it against me.”

The risk vs reward for you is very high, not because the risk is high but because since you have no reason to use /inspect there is no reward. Since you don’t interact with people that would use it against you, the risk is very low.

To me, the risk vs reward is very low. It would be very rewarding for me, but the potential risks are not great enough to dissuade me from the potential benefits. Since i don’t interact with people that would use it against me, the risk is very low.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Broadicea.8294:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

No, I don’t care to group with Elitists, but I don’t care to enable them either. I don’t want to reinforce that their ‘attitude’ is ok, when it in fact is not.

Its like giving a crack addict his next dosage. Are you an addict no? So it doesn’t affect you right? Wrong.

You don’t hand someone trying to commit suicide a gun or a razor blade.

You don’t enable the behavior that you are trying to reduce/get rid of.

Why can’t you let us play the way we want to play? You won’t be in our groups, we won’t bother you in map chat, in fact you’ll only ever glimpse us as we pass by each other in Lion’s Arch. Why do you have to be so controlling?

Why can’t you let me play how I want to play? I want to not have to worry about someone giving me crap because I choose to wear x over y, or because I choose to use a staff over daggers.

Why are you so controlling in telling me that I have to accept being inspected, whether I want to or not. Even if not by you specifically, by someone else. Potentially someone that has nothing to do with my play, just wants to be a kitten to someone.

The ‘let me play my way’ argument goes both ways. Your desire for /inspect infringes on my desire to be /inspect free. Both arguments are valid and have merit. However, its also the weakest argument that one can offer.

What if i told you, you could get /inspected without even noticing.

mindblown

RoChan.1926:

Scrambles.2604:

Am i the only one here that is curious what gear people are wearing and how it’s socketed, that also doesn’t have every skin in the game memorized? Why does everyone assume this tool will only be used for maliciousness?

No, you are not the only person curious but you may be one of the few that wouldn’t use it to be malicious. I can point you into the vast abyss of the the internet to show that, as a group of free thinking humans, there is still a large group of people whose point it is to be terrible contributors to humanity out of spite and/or humor. An /inspect function would not only encourage bad behaviors in a community but exasperate them. The function asks that we, as a community, self police ourselves and that is something that we as gamers, as internet goers, as humans have proven we can do without being ugly to one another. It’s the reason laws are made, why there are police, militaries, governments, overheads just to make sure that people are kind to one another and are punished for not doing so. I’m not saying an inspect tool will lead to anarchy but moderation exists for a reason because people cannot be trusted to do the right thing at all times. Even in this thread people have proven they do not want to do the right thing and instead want to satisfy themselves.

I admire your optimism and faith in humanity but you have to also consider the realistic side of introducing such a function. Will it kill a community immediately? No but toxic waste is still toxic waste, just because you can’t feel immediate repercussions doesn’t mean, that in the long run, it won’t cause cancerous results.

Do you think maybe, because of the nature of the player themselves, people that use these tools constructively tend to go unnoticed? If their not bothering anyone then how do you ever notice them? While the few, malicious players also tend to be the loudest, they are the most noticeable.

if you want to consider the realistic side of introducing tools like this, why don’t you looked at real data instead of assuming it would make the community toxic. I have already said a bunch of times that SWTOR had /inspect and DPS parsing, as well as a thriving, story driven community focused on acquiring aesthetics.

You could look to WoW for a toxic community, but blaming their community on the inspect feature is just making causality out of correlation.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

TooBz.3065:

In no way does a debate on an inspect function in any way equate to a debate on gay marriage. It’s a false comparison.

The point was about advocating against something that doesn’t effect you. People that advocate against gay marriage won’t be effected by gays being able to marry, just like the people that advocate against /inspect won’t be effected by the addition of that tool.

Am i the only one here that is curious what gear people are wearing and how it’s socketed, that also doesn’t have every skin in the game memorized? Why does everyone assume this tool will only be used for maliciousness?

I don’t assume that is will only be used maliciously. I’m concerned that it will be used more for malicious purposes than positive ones, and general human nature does support this concern. (Crap, just looking at some of the community supports this concern)

I guess I might be ok with it, if it only showed the skin information, but if you transmogged it and someone checks you out, are they going to assume you transmogged it, or that you’re wearing crap armor? Like you said, you have already run into this issue, being called a noob because your armor LOOKED low level. (Hmmm, didn’t I say something somewhere along the lines about judging books by their covers and first impressions….)

It’s been established that only “elitists” will use it maliciously to exclude people from their groups. It has also been established that the people that don’t want to be excluded because of gear, ALSO don’t want to group with “elitists.” So, the conflict only arises when people with bad-gear attempt to group with “elitists”, who they are actively trying to avoid grouping with in the first place.

Do you see how adding /inspect can sound like a non-issue? All the while, people that can ACTUALLY BENEFIT from adding /inspect are punished because of an irrational fear of “elitist” behavior, which they won’t even be subjected to as long as they continue to avoid the type of players we’ve already established they avoid.

TooBz.3065:

This fear may be unfounded, but it’s enough that we don’t want to take the risk.

holy crap. you just summed up this whole thread in one sentence.

TooBz.3065:

In no way does a debate on an inspect function in any way equate to a debate on gay marriage. It’s a false comparison.

The point was about advocating against something that doesn’t effect you. People that advocate against gay marriage won’t be effected by gays being able to marry, just like the people that advocate against /inspect won’t be effected by the addition of that tool.

Am i the only one here that is curious what gear people are wearing and how it’s socketed, that also doesn’t have every skin in the game memorized? Why does everyone assume this tool will only be used for maliciousness?

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

The way i see it, you are advocating against a tool you don’t plan on using, and since you don’t do a lot of dungeons and tend to play by yourself it is likely not to effect you.

No offense, but this reminds me of people who are against gay-marriage because they think it will ruin the sanctity of hetero marriages, when it reality it wont effect them at all.

Whether I personally use it or not, I do still have the right to express my opinion on the topic. Share my experience with previous similar tools, and offer thoughtful debate either for or against, so long as it is constructive and valid in its presentation. All of which I have done.

Just because I ‘may not’ use it, does not mean that it does not necessarily affect me. Like I said, I don’t generally do dungeons, but sometimes I ‘have’ to (MF for example). If I ever want to finish the Destiny’s Edge storyline, I will need to finish the story paths for each dungeon, which I do intend to do…otherwise the completionist in me would never rest.

Just because ‘it doesn’t affect you’ doesn’t mean you don’t have an opinion. Doesn’t mean you don’t have a right to that opinion. Gay marriage doesn’t affect me, but I say go for it. Gay people should have the right to be just as miserable/happy (cause it goes both ways) in marriage as straight couples are.

Now think about how you feel about people that are against Gay-marriage and their reasoning for it and maybe you might understand where i’m coming from.

I played SWTOR back before they added DPS parsing, and everyone was saying the exact same thing. “Don’t add DPS parsing, this game isn’t about the numbers! It would only give more tools to elitists!! It will ruin the community!!”

Well, they added DPS parsing anyway and the community didn’t suddenly turn toxic. The casuals continued to play with the casuals and the raiders used DPS parsing for in-depth theory crafting.

When people claim adding a tool will ruin a community, this is based on their experiences with an already crappy community (cough, WoW). These claims are based on negative associations with the worst of worst players, which also make up a minority of the overall player base. More importantly, claims about tools fostering a toxic community have no empirical backing and are only perpetuated by forum hear-say.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I don’t do dungeons (unless I absolutely have to) – too many kittens. I tried a few times…I really did. I was polite, I took suggestions, I asked questions, checked the wiki for guidance so I wasn’t completely without knowledge. Anet, give me back my kitten heroes!

I don’t do fractals – too many elitist kittens. Won’t even go near it.

Open world, I have no issues jumping into the mobs for DEs. I have no issues running around aimlessly for hours randomly helping people, but generally speaking, I play alone. Or with my husband when he opts to play.

Even being among ‘like minded’ individuals, most still aren’t into my play style. I like ‘stopping to smell the roses.’ I like taking my time and killing everything, not just speeding to the end boss (partly why 9 months later I STILL aint killed Zaitahn). I stop to talk (cause I can’t play and type) which slows EVERYbody down. I stop to help people out. I wander off on random tangents (my husband hates this). I’m a very odd player, and my sense of humor is only shared by select few.

The way i see it, you are advocating against a tool you don’t plan on using, and since you don’t do a lot of dungeons and tend to play by yourself it is likely not to effect you.

No offense, but this reminds me of people who are against gay-marriage because they think it will ruin the sanctity of hetero marriages, when it reality it wont effect them at all.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Edit: Side note….I actually have no issues with in game voice chat. I’m all for that.

Why add a voice chat? It would just be a tool that enables more elitism. The negative effects of it destroying our perfect community outweigh the increased accessibility of communication. Personally, i am a fast typer and have no need for voice chat. So, only elitists and bullies would use it to hurt my feelings. And if you really want to voice chat you can just use mumble or teamspeak. Do you see where i’m going with this?

There’s a big difference here. Voice chat is completely optional. You don’t have to use it. No one can force you to use it, and if you opt to use it and they are kitten-bags, you log off of it.

You have NO SAY in someone /inspecting your armor, whenever and wherever they please. You have no say in someone booting you because you don’t conform to their standards even though perhaps they didn’t say they wanted x-y-z or you’re on par with their DPS, but they just don’t your setup. Yes, we have these issues already. I am saying that /inspect will make it worse.

“Judge not the book by its cover” and this is EXACTLY what inspect lets you do. First impressions are more often than not wrong, yet we still let them color our judgement. Don’t you think its time we rise above base human nature and be something better?

Voice chat is just as optional as inspect. If someone is harassing you, mute/ignore them. If someone boots you because of your gear i ASSURE you that you are better off not playing with them. If this thread has shown anything, you are among like-minded players, and should have no problem grouping with someone who doesn’t care about your gear. I would recommend that you stop trying to play with people that dont want to play with you.

I avoid dungeon runs that call for specific class/gear and have never had an issue. I intentionally group with like minded people. One time, someone was acting like a jerk to someone else in my group, SO I LEFT! I’m not going to choose to play with people like that!

The only issue i have had in a dungeon, was being called a noob because of the gear it APPEARED i was wearing. My gear may look like a mix of blues/greens, when it is actually just transmuted full-exotics. That wouldn’t have happened with /inspect.

edit; I can also see a scenario where you would get booted outright from a group for not having voice chat activated, so there’s also that.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Edit: Side note….I actually have no issues with in game voice chat. I’m all for that.

Why add a voice chat? It would just be a tool that enables more elitism. The negative effects of it destroying our perfect community outweigh the increased accessibility of communication. Personally, i am a fast typer and have no need for voice chat. So, only elitists and bullies would use it to hurt my feelings. And if you really want to voice chat you can just use mumble or teamspeak. Do you see where i’m going with this?

penatbater.4710:

Scrambles.2604:

Bullies will use whatever tools they can to antagonize. They already thrive without these tools. That means we should deny legitimate players access to those tools as well? There are more reasons to use /inspect besides denying casuals entry into dungeons.

If you aren’t /inspected and you don’t wipe then obviously there is no issue. If someone /inspects you and says “NOPE! sorry no condition gear noob” then eff that guy! He doesn’t deserve to be grouped with you anyway. That is not a good enough reason to deny legitimate players access to more in-game tools.

Aye, bullies can even use Zomorros to antagonize other players if possible. The question is, why are we giving them the tools in the first place? Is the need of legitimate players so great that we would be willing to accept this evil? Would the harm it cause justify the good it brings?

This is essentially the crux of the question. IMO, the positive uses for /inspect outweigh the negative impact. From what i’ve gathered, the negative impact is based on absolutely NO concrete evidence. Some people say it makes communities worse, yet i have seen both good and bad communities in games with /inspect functions.

Obviously, this is anecdotal, and i am no scientist, but i would venture to guess that the behavior of the community is based on the behavior of individual players, not the tools they have access to.

I’m baffled that a game that is ultimately based on personal skill (not stat based) and collecting neat aesthetics doesn’t have /inspect feature in PvE.

The fear is people will use /inspect to exclude you from content. Does exclusion from content not already exist?? Are people already being forced into cookie-cutter gears for high-end “elitist” runs?? What you are afraid that /inspect will bring already exists in-game.

also, laokoko made a point earlier that the conflict between the two groups of players (elitists and casuals) exists because of the content itself. Without hard-mode dungeons, casuals and elites are forced to intermingle unknowingly and this is where the conflict arises. If nothing else, /inspect would reduce this conflict, because players would have a better idea of the type of players they’re about to run with.

penatbater.4710:

Scrambles.2604:

If people were upfront with what they wanted from dungeon groups (like the current zerker CoF run) then it would be a non-issue. This is a “putting groups together” issue, not a /inspect issue.

What i am hearing is “I don’t want /inspect because it would lead to me being kicked from groups with people i wouldn’t want to group with in the first place.”

I feel like you should be supporting inspect, because it would be an obvious red flag as to who you don’t want to play with. If you join a seemingly normal CoF run, and the first thing the party leader does is start talking crap about your gear he just /inspected, then LEAVE! You shouldn’t have to take that crap! If it wasn’t for inspect he would probably just call you out for wiping 15 mins into the run. The way i see it, /inspect would save both parties that 15 mins.

You guys are so self-conscious about your builds and gear. This is an MMO, i don’t know what you expected but interacting with other sub-humans is part of the ride.

They’d call me out for wiping IF we do wipe. But if not? Why are you unnecessarily discriminating against me if you haven’t even seen me play? How sure are you that my build will cause me to wipe? As I’ve said, if you ask people in a nice manner about their build, chances are, they would respond. The issue is more of discriminating against particular builds even before they’ve seen my performance, giving bullies the tools they need to antagonize other players more, etc.

Bullies will use whatever tools they can to antagonize. They already thrive without these tools. That means we should deny legitimate players access to those tools as well? There are more reasons to use /inspect besides denying casuals entry into dungeons.

If you aren’t /inspected and you don’t wipe then obviously there is no issue. If someone /inspects you and says “NOPE! sorry no condition gear noob” then eff that guy! He doesn’t deserve to be grouped with you anyway. That is not a good enough reason to deny legitimate players access to more in-game tools.

penatbater.4710:

@scrambles
I think everyone and their mother has conceded the fact that if you join a zerker speedrun of cof, you’d better have the gear. The cause for concern applies to other dungeons, having the potential to devolve into what we have for cof at the moment.

If people were upfront with what they wanted from dungeon groups (like the current zerker CoF run) then it would be a non-issue. This is a “putting groups together” issue, not a /inspect issue.

What i am hearing is “I don’t want /inspect because it would lead to me being kicked from groups with people i wouldn’t want to group with in the first place.”

I feel like you should be supporting inspect, because it would be an obvious red flag as to who you don’t want to play with. If you join a seemingly normal CoF run, and the first thing the party leader does is start talking crap about your gear he just /inspected, then LEAVE! You shouldn’t have to take that crap! If it wasn’t for inspect he would probably just call you out for wiping 15 mins into the run. The way i see it, /inspect would save both parties that 15 mins.

You guys are so self-conscious about your builds and gear. This is an MMO, i don’t know what you expected but interacting with other sub-humans is part of the ride.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

That’s right….it’s all about how fast you can get to the cookie. “Gimme my rewards now kitten!”

/inspect encourages the mentality that we all must conform to a specific class/armor/spec/build and that to be different is somehow wrong.

“You must be x class”
“You must have x armor”
“You must have x weapon”
“You must have x, y, and z utilities”
“You must have x points in y trait, with options a, d, and f”

Nothing else will suffice. Nothing else is ‘ok.’

We already have issues with segregation, discrimination, and elitist attitudes. We do not need to make it worse by giving them things to make it easier.

-1 for /inspect

A lack of self-confidence leads to conforming to a specific build. Saying /inspect leads to cookie cutter builds is like saying that the Chat Window fosters elitism and leads to cookie cutter builds.

“This dude messaged me and told me my build sucks. We should get rid of in-game messaging, so people can’t criticize my build and force me to play their way.”

Bullies and bad mannered players will always force their will on you. It is up to YOU to stand up to them. We do this already by forming our own “all classes welcome” CoF runs.

Jerks and “elitists” will use whatever tools they have available to them, whether it is DPS meters, /inspect, text-chat, or even /spit emotes. This shouldn’t be a reason to deny the rest of the player base valuable tools.

If you enjoy your own, non-cookie cutter build so much, you should be able to defend your conscious decisions in choosing your gear and build. You should also avoid putting yourself in positions where people would criticize you gear. If you want to avoid elitists, stop trying to sneak into full-zerker runs.

What if Anet wanted to add in-game voice chat? Would we say no, because it would allow elitists to call us out through another medium besides text chat?

Jaall.3420:

Scrambles.2604:

Well, Jaall, at first i thought you would be the voice of reason until you took sides, haha.

Firstly, you shouldn’t expect to take a 8 year hiatus and jump back into where you left off. I did the same thing with WoW, but took my place at the bottom and worked my way up.

Secondly, take a look at SWTOR. It has gear inspect AND dps parsing, yet it isn’t the elitest, hellhole everyone thinks these tools will change the game into.

Player behavior determines the community, not the tools. If someone wants to deny you from a group because of your gear, don’t blame the function that lets you look at someone’s gear, blame the person denying you the group.

I only really took sides because personal experience has lead me to some truly horrible people but you’re right, it is the people and not the tool. It is just the fact that such tools promote being rude, it’s kinda rewarding to be that way because it’s so easy so a lot of people do it. Like I said though, I don’t really know which way it will go, they could implement it and it’ll be fine, it might stay the way it is now.

Nobody really has a way of knowing, I certainly don’t so I don’t really take sides but would prefer if it wasn’t implemented cause I don’t feel the risk is necessary. I agree too that 8 years is way too long, and as I said 8 months is still too long to take a break, but i’ve had real life issues that have come up where I literally don’t have time to play at all, and then issues arise where I have all the time in the world to play. For example, i was working full time but a year ago was involved in a major car accident where I smashed both legs which has resulted in a very long time off work recovering, so I fill that time with GW2.

I don’t like the fact that in a game you enjoy you can’t take them months off as a break from the game and never be able to return because of players attitudes towards content alone. If the players didn’t follow max/min dps, didn’t only take people with the correct gear etc I could have come back to the games no problem. Following that train of thought in the majority of the community led to that game being very difficult to start back up and I would hate for a game as good as GW2 to get to that stage where i cant come back and play when I get back to work.

It’s basically just personal opinion and almost fear that the pressure to continue playing, that of a subscription based mmo, would be enforced on a buy to play mmo simply because of a tool that encouraged people to be unforgiving when making groups. I would adapt as much as i could if they made it so it wouldn’t be terrible to me but I think the community would suffer even more than it is now because GW hasn’t been designed like WoW, in the way that it does not cater to pressured gameplay.

Where WoW can get away with it because they charge monthly so people play as much as possible to make the most out of it, GW you can take breaks and come back whenever you want because you don’t have to pay anything to play after you’ve bought it. This is simply personal opinion, and you’re completely right in the fact that it is down to the mentality of players and not the tool itself. I have faith in this community so I hope if it does get implemented it wont be as bad as people are saying, but from experience and almost hard fact in other mmo’s, it could potentially be very bad.

Haha, well it’s OK. Your in a safe place now. WoW was just one game out of many MMOs, and i can assure that SWTOR, a game based substantially on story-telling and aesthetics (so more similar to GW2) has inspect AND dps parsing. When i left SWTOR the community was just as friendly as when i started.

if you don’t want inspect, that’s fine. But it’s not fair to advocate against a tool that you don’t plan on using, because you think some jerk players (that probably don’t want to play with you in the first place) will be mean to you.

There are plenty of reasonable players that wont criticize your gear or dopplegang your character’s unique look. I would even dare to say that those players are the majority here.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

@Scramble – There have been far too many ‘add this feature’ requests because ‘x’ other game has it. We don’t need it, and many don’t want it, and there is nothing wrong with that. You want that feature, fine go play ‘x’ other game. Just because they have it doesn’t mean we should.

If we start down that road we may as well throw out all the unique things because people aren’t going to want those anyway….they’re ‘too different’

I can see where your getting at. Mounts for instance; just because WoW had them doesn’t mean GW2 needs them. And that is true, because everyone has access to swiftness and mounts don’t necessarily fit in.

But the end game for GW2 primarily revolves around getting cool looking gear…and you’re going to tell me that a function to let me look at people’s cool gear is not needed??

WoW is a good and successful game for a reason. GW2 is nothing like WoW besides being an MMO. Taking useful features from WoW and implementing them in GW2 isn’t going to turn GW2 into WoW, it’s just going to make GW2 better.

Firefly.5982:

Scrambles.2604:

Your adding all these caveats to inspect that just makes things more complicated, in order to cater to people that wont use it in the first place. That’s why i don’t like your suggestion.

I am not adding anything. Neither is any of what I said made up. I am simply pointing out aspects of this feature, that you have not even thought of. It’s a fact that it will be used for more, than just what YOU would use it for. Which, by the way, I guarantee you the devs would consider as well, before implementing a feature solely based on ONE possible use.

Sorry, but i dont consider “I don’t want anyones characters to look like mine” a viable reason to not add an inspect feature.

Firefly.5982:

Jemmi.6058:

You are assuming that demanding a set of gear for a dungeon run is the only use for this.

I wouldn’t use it for that but would use it for:

1. Improving my gear by inspecting more experienced guild mates and players
2. Finding out names of aesthetic pieces of armour (right now I have to whisper and ask and hope they respond).
3. Assisting guild mates and friends improve their gear

And that number 2 is exactly why I personally am SO against the /inspect feature I work very hard to give my toons unique mixed and matched looks and I do NOT want anyone to be able to just stop by, inspect me and copy my look. No thank you.

I know MANY people feel the same way, whereas others don’t care about looks like I don’t care if anyone knows my stats, whereas others don’t want people to copy their builds. A voluntary inspect feature would allow for both sides to be pleased.

I’m sure people are just lining up to copy your gear because they think your toon is soooo cool.

Jemmi.6058:

Elaria.6230:

Adding /inspect would be redundant. The tools are already there to do your pre-run checks. Even if /inspect gets implemented, I don’t think it’ll prevent what you’re trying to avoid. How would you know that someone won’t switch gear to MF when the run starts? It’s the same in WoW and it has those tools (cheating the lfg and raid finder). Honestly this is one of those, “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” things.

You are assuming that demanding a set of gear for a dungeon run is the only use for this.

I wouldn’t use it for that but would use it for:

1. Improving my gear by inspecting more experienced guild mates and players
2. Finding out names of aesthetic pieces of armour (right now I have to whisper and ask and hope they respond).
3. Assisting guild mates and friends improve their gear

too add to this (you kind of hit it in your first point)
You can see what gear people have by looking, but /inspect would let you see what people have socketed, which would be helpful.

Also, if i’m on my ele in a group with another ele, i could inspect them to get an idea of their playstyle and tailor my weapons to better accommodate the group (if the other ele is mostly support ill switch to full dps)

but yea, to assume people only want /inspect to lock people out of dungeon groups is pretty narrow-minded.

Well, Jaall, at first i thought you would be the voice of reason until you took sides, haha.

Firstly, you shouldn’t expect to take a 8 year hiatus and jump back into where you left off. I did the same thing with WoW, but took my place at the bottom and worked my way up.

Secondly, take a look at SWTOR. It has gear inspect AND dps parsing, yet it isn’t the elitest, hellhole everyone thinks these tools will change the game into.

Player behavior determines the community, not the tools. If someone wants to deny you from a group because of your gear, don’t blame the function that lets you look at someone’s gear, blame the person denying you the group.

TooBz.3065:

Wethospu.6437:

Like specifically asking for someone with good damage and then getting shout-heal Hammer Warrior with Vit/Prec/Heal gear?
If you are fine with “elitist” parties then what’s the issue with providing necessary tools?

There are a couple of reasons.

1) Generally, elitists aren’t as good or as smart as they think they are.

2) An inspect tool encourages elitist parties, which while tolerated should never be encouraged.

3) An inspect tool discourages build diversity. Everyone will gravitate toward a couple of builds that the elitist consider acceptable. (See 1)

Inspect tool doesn’t encourage “elitist” parties. It is just conventional wisdom that only “elitists” will use /inspect. God forbid i don’t have every armor/weapon skin in this game memorized, and i would like to see what someone is using without bothering them.

I’m going to open a PTSD clinic for people who have been abused by elitists. “Please, have a seat and tell me how the elitist usurped your keyboard and forced you to play his way.”

Llyren.3904:

Everyone plays to have fun, everyone.

There are some folks that are mean, don’t play with them.

There are many folks who are not mean, play with them.

Some people at a different spot on the min/maxer spectrum then you have fun by playing a more “math based” build, and playing with others close to the same spot in that spectrum. If you don’t like to play that way then don’t.

Telling a min/maxer they can’t have a parser or inspect or other math tools is like telling a roleplayer they can’t make their character look different from everyone else.

Mean peoples will be mean without tools, all mean peoples need is to type, or better yet voicechat.

Min/maxer does not equal mean peoples. Anyone can be a mean peoples.

Hey! This is a very thoughtful and insightful post. I consider myself a min/maxer / math oriented player, and i hate being told “what tools shouldn’t be allowed because it would foster elitism.”

It is the nature of bad-mannered players that you will obviously hear from them. In fact, they will go out of their way to make themselves heard.

What you don’t hear from is respectable, kind players, like myself, who prefer a style of gameplay based around rigid numbers and actual in-game calculations, but also keep to themselves and don’t force it on to others. I enjoy seeing MY skill progress in the game. I will help others but i don’t care if your stat choices don’t make sense. It is the fundamental nature of this type of player, who keeps to themselves, that you don’t hear their side.

Bad mannered jerk players will always exist, and currently thrive in this game without tools you people argue against. To object to an inspect feature out of fear of “elitists” is futile, because “elitists” don’t need an inspect feature to deny you, they will come up with some subjective, unfounded reason, like “necros suck.”

and personally, if someone inspects me and criticizes my gearing decisions, i should either 1) second-guess my gearing choices—maybe something about my gear could be improved to my actual benefit, or 2) have the friggin self-confidence to stand up to bullies and defend my gearing choices.

I come from a background of playing MMOs with inspect features being standard, so i was surprised GW2 didn’t have it.

That being said, i think it would be a cool addition.

I often see people with cool gear or something i hadn’t seen before so it would be nice to inspect and check it out.

On a personal note, i got called out for being a noob in CoF, specifically because of my gear. Although i have full exotics, the’yre mostly transmuted into blues/green aesthetics, so i could see how someone would make that mistake. If there was an inspect that probably wouldn’t have happened.

I came here for some SWTOR bashing and all i got was another anti-zerg thread.

Commander tags encourage zergs, for one.

As a pug that’s not affiliated with a strong WvW guild, I jump into WvW, hop on TS, and follow whichever blue icon is running around at the time.

zerging is cool though, i got no beef with it.

I never feel inadequate in PvE, and i always have something to bring to the group. If you’re getting heavy into meta and can’t be bothered for your run to go 2 mins longer than it needs to, then war/guard/mes blah blah blah.

But personally, I shell out a lot of dmg with s/d, and have a ton of survivability. Even though i’m squishy i have no problem taking damage. I have easy access to vulnerability if needed, and i can provide the group with almost constant 25 stacks of might. Lastly, i bring a lot of healing, which everyone appreciates.

Personally, i haven’t picked up my focus since they stopped Swirling Winds from blocking trebs.

Focus is intended to be the defensive weapon option, but i get more healing and utility out of an offhand dagger.

They should give Eles a smoke field on the focus so you could get a little bit of stealth action going. At least that would give the focus a niche that the other weapons can’t do (besides trident…but..well…yeah..).

Magische Boek.2530:

fire, water, air, earth, now i want a 5th element… the element of surprise! in this atunement you never know what you will get from your 1,2,3,4,5 skills :p

haha. this made me laugh.

“Surprise attunement skill 1” – Pocket Sand! shishishaaaw!!!

i don’t have a problem with downed-state. It’s an interesting mechanic, and it’s in every part of the game, so L2P or move on.

It’s not an entirely novel concept— Left4Dead has it, Borderlands has it (albeit, maybe not in pvp, im not sure).

If you kill someone and they get rezzed by two teammates…sounds like a 1v3 situation i don’t know why you would expect to win in the first place.

Zikory.6871:

Scrambles.2604:

isn’t the anti-stealth trap a 4 sec cast? Good luck pulling that off in a 1v1.

Most thieves use shadow refuge so that is more then enough time to pull it off. Also if your fast any of the thieves stealth skills will give you enough time to drop it and only be out of stealth for a short time.

shadow refuge – aka “spam shortbow 2 here”

I didn’t say it couldn’t be done. But good luck pulling it off.

I feel like there’s a bigger ratio of thieves “speculating the effects of anti-stealth traps” vs “experiencing the effects of anti-stealth traps”

isn’t the anti-stealth trap a 4 sec cast? Good luck pulling that off in a 1v1.

what do you guys think of this build? I’ve only tried it in PvE.

Here’s the build I’m using: http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoaVlcmqN3ey8E9JFB3Dna0m6V4raFoZnCuqVA

I stocked up on Shaman’s gear (vita/heal/condi). You get a big health pool along with multiple ways to regularly regen health (signet of malice, mug, shadow refuge >life steal, stealth regen, and health when using initiative).

Your main source of damage will be bleeds and poisons. With 20 points in acrobatics, i always have a ton of endurance, which allows me to drop caltrops constantly. Poison dmg is maintained with SB 4, Dagger 1, and needle trap. I drop needle trap on top of my enemy over caltops to ensure longer bleed duration.

Any criticism or suggestions are welcome!

yeah, i’m curious what the exploit was. I always feel late to the party on these things. I didn’t even start using Evasive Arcana until after it was nerfed.

Tommyknocker.6089:

@ Scrambles: An arena would solve that nicely then. No fuss no muss, enter if you want to or don’t; very consensual.

It depends on if you got to use your PvE char or your sPvP char. AFAIK, you can do custom spvp matches now and do 1v1s, so that already exists. But i could careless about my sPvP char, i spent all my time on my PvE char.

Another reason, which is a little harder to articulate, is the dissociative nature of being removed from the area and placed in an instance. If someone approaches me when i’m just carrying on by myself, and requests a duel, i’d be more likely to engage them if i could just carry on about my business afterwards. But if i have to be ported to another instance, that just completely take me out of it.

Personally, I never realized how important open worlds were until i played the heavily instanced SWTOR. You lose a significant level of immersion when the world stops appearing so seamless.

Tommyknocker.6089:

So instead of going into an area where you will be faced by people full expecting to defend themselves you want to grieve those that are just there to have a good time?

No thanks, even with an option to turn off dueling, I FIRMLY believe you and players like you want this to be default off in the options so that you can still catch a few unaware players. Grow a pair and enter PvP or WvW if you want to but leave those that want it to their PvE.

ANet give these guys an arena already, if not for any other reason as making these threads stop.

Dueling is generally a consensual activity between two responsible adults.