You’ll probably get the best advice from the Ele subforum
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I started out in WvW with a very similar build (30 in fire), but eventually switched to the standard bunker (30 water 30 arcana) and absolutely loved it!
You get so much heals and survivability with 30 in water. 30 in arcana lets you switch attunements in a pinch, and also gives you Evasive arcana, which is like, the best ele trait ever.
As a staff ele, you serve the zerg best by providing tons of AoE for people to use blast finishers on, while hitting as many enemies as possible with your many AoEs. The longer you are able to survive, the better your ability to do this.
(edited by Scrambles.2604)
Ele here. If i am downed near a tower i will vapor form back in.
However, I would be fine with them removing the ability to run back through the door. I’ll just use mist form before i get downed, suckers
Scrambles the Death Dealer is right.
You basically just took a dump on literally every single weapon combination we got and then asked to be convinced to play one. Why not list what you like to do and people will list what builds they find successful for that activity?
Well it’s not so much I’m trying to take a dump on them but I can see your point. Comparing release ele and the current won’t help my current situation. I suppose PVE it’s all about numbers to the lightning hammer build would work.
WvW I adore roaming and X/D was the king of that. Now you can’t risk using RTL to get around due to the cooldown so I suppose a good in-and-out build for 1v1-2 would be nice.
I’ve seen effective s/d roaming builds, as well. I think most of the dps came from air.
Despite the nerf, you can still use RTL. Just half as often. If you keep finding yourself in situations where you lose because you couldn’t use RTL again within a 40 sec span, then you probably didn’t deserve to win that engagement, or were simply outplayed.
Scrambles the Death Dealer is right.
I do love me some Metalocalypse
(edited by Scrambles.2604)
Going into any room, anywhere, and just saying “I am better than you all” will make you rather unpopular rather fast.
He would be right though. He’s better than all of us at being a first class a—kitten.
Being the best is defined differently for different players. I never considered people with rank 14 in WoW “the best” because it came at the cost of things that are far better than r14, namely a life.
You have to differentiate the two: there is the player, and there is the person.
A r14 player in wow is likely the best player, but this makes no assumption about his personal life.Being good at WoW was not a requirement for r14, however being bad at life was.
I would never dare to judge anyone’s personal life, I am a strong believer of the idea that all people and things are equal.
This does not prevent me from judging the skill of a player and ordinating it.r14 factually required 2 continuous months of at least 14 hours per day played. Every single day. Missing a day meant delaying r14 by about a week. People with any hard RL requirements, even if only half a day every other week, were not able to get it. Time investment was literally the only requirement for r14. Being good was not part of the equation.
Yeah, but it’s ridiculous to think someone would spend all that time getting to rank14 and not get any better at the game. I actually got to rank 13 back in vanilla and while the best pvpers at the time weren’t exclusively high ranks, i can guarantee you that the high rank pvpers were very proficient at pvp.
You didn’t have to be good to get rank14, but the process of getting rank14 made you better.
And taking shots at peoples live’s just makes you sound bitter…“anyone worse than me is a noob and anyone better than me has no life!”
(edited by Scrambles.2604)
I really wonder why people think an MMO needs to be as badly made as WoW. Especially since WoW is a very old game and in those days it wasn’t possible to do it any better. But MMO stands for people playing together and not about re-spawning enemies!
In our last guild rush at Southsun Cove this was really getting annoying to the max. Here we are talking about MMO gaming in its core. In those 15 minutes I am sure we have killed the same ennemies 10 times and even the broodmother boss several times, to the point that the strategy is to stand on the spawn points to kill and re-kill…
That really feels dumb and totally ruins what could become a nice MMO feeling in terms of playing together to achieve a goal
It gives me a stupid farming of enemies feeling and that without even moving!
I dunno what your talking about, WoW is probably the most polished MMO out there. People hate on D3, as well, but you cannot deny how smooth it plays. Polish is kind of Blizzard’s thing.
I agree though, enemies respawn really fast. That just means more people have access to the enemies—but IMO i would take slower respawn rates over more accessibility. If i have to wait 5 minutes for an area to repopulate, so be it. It’s not like there is a ton of competition for mobs in the open world anyway.
IMO,
elite
Generally speaking elite players are excellent (good skill, good strategy, willing to help, know mechanics inside and out, etc), and you can tell just by watching them. However, they are also humble, and in general decent people to be around.elitist
On the other hand ‘elitists’ tend to be jackkittenes that arent worth their weight in kitten, and the ones that are actually good, get blown off anyway because of their attitude. You get so much further when you’re not a kittenhead.We are on the same page
The bottom line, imo (important part), is that elitism and the elite are not mutually exclusive (as I said.. quite a few times now).
One can be an elitist and completely lacking in all skill. Elite refers directly to the skill level of the player. I would also add that most “elite” players achieve the title through a mass consensus that generally does not involve their own opinion.
So, elite refers to actual skill level. Elitist refers to attitude towards skill level (regardless of presence or absence of said skill). Basically, you can be an elite player without being an elitist, and you can be an elitist without being an elite player.
It is quite interesting that those who are promoting the theme of the OP all tend to have a vastly different idea of what these mean from myself and Lanfear.
edit: I wonder if it is something that is lost in translation? English might be a second/third/etc language for some here.
No offense, but you both seem to follow the derogatory definition that the OP and I have been discussing and are trying to advocate against. You both have a negative association with “elitists” and “bad behaviors.”
The idea is that you can be an “elitist” without being “bad mannered” and of course you can be “bad mannered” without being “elitist.” The issue is that you don’t seem to differentiate between the two and just lump them in one category—“Elitism.”
I suggest we just use the term “Elitist” in the same way the “N-word” has evolved over time. Dissociate it with it’s negative stereotype and turn it into a term of endearment:
You don’t call me Elitist!! That is our word!!
edit; The last thing i’ll say, is your negative attitude towards “elitists” is just as bad as the attitude of the bad-mannered “elitists” you complain about.
(edited by Scrambles.2604)
Being an elitist in a game is defined as having an above average skill and wanting to play only with people of equivalent skill.
My perspective on “elitism” comes mostly from vanilla WoW, where all the major theorycrafting and end-game strategic optimization was done by a guild called the “Elitist Jerks.” So, when i think of elitism, i think of in-depth min-maxing and best strats for encounters, etc.
If i were looking to play the best, efficient way possible, in a team-setting, then it would probably go without saying i would be happiest among like-minded players, who are also trying to optimize their gameplay.
So playing with people of equal skill could be a characteristic of “elitism” and i don’t see why that is a bad thing.
It’s only a bad thing if you are being a jerk about it.
It is also true that in my experience it is the most skilled people who are the least respectful to average players because of their high expectations.Elitist Jerks forums were actually elitist: you could only become a contributor if you were approved by other highly skilled theorycrafters!
Well, it was their guild forums, but it was a great source for in-depth, detailed information about gameplay and builds. If i were EJ, I wouldn’t have wanted me posting on those forums either, haha.
So, the issue isn’t necessarily with players that try to be good at the game. The issue is that people have associated “bad manners” with “trying to be good at the game” and decided to start calling it “elitism.”
I guess it is my goal to advocate against this negative stereotype. It’s because of negative associations like these that exist, that “Elite” players, like myself, will never get access to useful tools, like Combat metrics/combat log parsing, Inspect features, etc, because people are so afraid of “bad mannered” players using them.
My friend, I couldn’t agree more!!!
And this leads me to my OP: due to the negative connotations of the word Elitist, or anything related to the will to perform better, it has become terribly difficult to find fellow “elite” players to party with!As for metrics, I have resorted to asking my zerker warrior (arguably the highest dps) friends to count in how many auto attacks they can kill a training mannequin (no condi, no crit) and with this data you can make a spreadsheet to benchmark your damage output.
I have this spreadsheet and I would be glad to share it with who ever is interested.
It’s about time some decent TC is produced for this game!
There are quite some people on these forums who run tests and think a lot, I would be so glad to see a TC community growing! This way when actually challenging contrnt is released we will be prepared to face it! Also it is undeniable that making such information public would benefit the entire playerbase, which would then lead to more knowledgable people willing to face more difficult content and dive into the depth of the game! Wait maybe i am just dreaming a bit haha
The problem is, where you think in-depth theorycrafting will benefit the player base, there is a vocal population that thinks in-depth theorycrafting will change the game and force them to play at the highest standards. Or that theorycrafting is pointless because there are no unbeatable encounters where figuring out the optimal strategy is integral to beating the encounter.
Of course, i don’t agree with this, because no one can force you to play a certain way without usurping your keyboard or remoting onto your computer. And just because you kill a boss doesn’t mean you can’t do it again, better.
This game tends to cater to the “everyone is a winner” crowd, so i don’t imagine any sort of in-depth combat metrics will ever be added. At this point, I would even be happy if they just did what SWTOR did, which was add a way to parse your combat log through third-party programs.
Elitism is only perceived as a negative quality to one that has no interest in striving to be “Elite.” The issue is “elitist” players and “regular” players both share and participate in the same level of content, even though they do not strive for the same level of success.
The issue isn’t the mindsets—you’ll never get rid of that. The issue is the level of content is accessible and participated in by two groups that don’t get along very well. And they shouldn’t be expected to get along— because they each play the game for different reasons and get different things out of it.
The only solution (besides altering game content) is to recognize that there are two divergent groups in the community and respect the fact that they play the game for different reasons. You’re not getting denied from a CoF zerker group because you suck, you’re getting denied because the people in that group aren’t just trying to beat the content, but do it the most efficient way possible.
I do not consider “elite” and “elitism” to be synonymous. One can be “elite” without being an elitist. Thats been pretty much my entire point with all of my posts in these types of threads
It was also the point of the post you quoted, but perhaps there is just some miscommunication. Someone doing something in the most efficient way possible may or may not be elite, and they may or may not be elitist.
I don’t want this to break down into an argument about semantics, but how do you define “elite” and “elitist?”
For me i consider being “elitist” simply the practice of being “the elite player” aka “high-end player” aka “the-best-you-can-be” You can be elitist without being rude and shoving it down peoples throats. It just means you strive for the top end, most efficient way of playing.
So, not necessarily the derogatory, “play my way, or the highway..” definition of Elitism you hear so often on these forums.
IMO,
elite
Generally speaking elite players are excellent (good skill, good strategy, willing to help, know mechanics inside and out, etc), and you can tell just by watching them. However, they are also humble, and in general decent people to be around.elitist
On the other hand ‘elitists’ tend to be jackkittenes that arent worth their weight in kitten, and the ones that are actually good, get blown off anyway because of their attitude. You get so much further when you’re not a kittenhead.Again, i don’t want to meta-argue semantics, but shouldn’t your definition of “elitist” at least in some way resemble the definition of “elite?” I know we’re just talking about our opinions but both words are from the same root and your definition of “elitist” doesn’t really include any characteristics of what you think of as “elite.” More so, your definition just includes “things you don’t like.”
Not necessarily, but like you said, don’t want to argue semantics here.
IMO-
Good player – nice to each other, beneficial to the community, lend a hand when needed.
Gooder players – the worst scum you could ever imagine. Rude to everyone they encounter. i saw one eat a baby once.
Yes, to be fair you can give something whatever definition you want. Just try to avoid injected one’s personal bias for the more accurate definition.
Elitism is only perceived as a negative quality to one that has no interest in striving to be “Elite.” The issue is “elitist” players and “regular” players both share and participate in the same level of content, even though they do not strive for the same level of success.
The issue isn’t the mindsets—you’ll never get rid of that. The issue is the level of content is accessible and participated in by two groups that don’t get along very well. And they shouldn’t be expected to get along— because they each play the game for different reasons and get different things out of it.
The only solution (besides altering game content) is to recognize that there are two divergent groups in the community and respect the fact that they play the game for different reasons. You’re not getting denied from a CoF zerker group because you suck, you’re getting denied because the people in that group aren’t just trying to beat the content, but do it the most efficient way possible.
I do not consider “elite” and “elitism” to be synonymous. One can be “elite” without being an elitist. Thats been pretty much my entire point with all of my posts in these types of threads
It was also the point of the post you quoted, but perhaps there is just some miscommunication. Someone doing something in the most efficient way possible may or may not be elite, and they may or may not be elitist.
I don’t want this to break down into an argument about semantics, but how do you define “elite” and “elitist?”
For me i consider being “elitist” simply the practice of being “the elite player” aka “high-end player” aka “the-best-you-can-be” You can be elitist without being rude and shoving it down peoples throats. It just means you strive for the top end, most efficient way of playing.
So, not necessarily the derogatory, “play my way, or the highway..” definition of Elitism you hear so often on these forums.
IMO,
elite
Generally speaking elite players are excellent (good skill, good strategy, willing to help, know mechanics inside and out, etc), and you can tell just by watching them. However, they are also humble, and in general decent people to be around.elitist
On the other hand ‘elitists’ tend to be jackkittenes that arent worth their weight in kitten, and the ones that are actually good, get blown off anyway because of their attitude. You get so much further when you’re not a kittenhead.
Again, i don’t want to meta-argue semantics, but shouldn’t your definition of “elitist” at least in some way resemble the definition of “elite?” I know we’re just talking about our opinions but both words are from the same root and your definition of “elitist” doesn’t really include any characteristics of what you think of as “elite.” More so, your definition just includes “things you don’t like.”
Elitism is only perceived as a negative quality to one that has no interest in striving to be “Elite.” The issue is “elitist” players and “regular” players both share and participate in the same level of content, even though they do not strive for the same level of success.
The issue isn’t the mindsets—you’ll never get rid of that. The issue is the level of content is accessible and participated in by two groups that don’t get along very well. And they shouldn’t be expected to get along— because they each play the game for different reasons and get different things out of it.
The only solution (besides altering game content) is to recognize that there are two divergent groups in the community and respect the fact that they play the game for different reasons. You’re not getting denied from a CoF zerker group because you suck, you’re getting denied because the people in that group aren’t just trying to beat the content, but do it the most efficient way possible.
I do not consider “elite” and “elitism” to be synonymous. One can be “elite” without being an elitist. Thats been pretty much my entire point with all of my posts in these types of threads
It was also the point of the post you quoted, but perhaps there is just some miscommunication. Someone doing something in the most efficient way possible may or may not be elite, and they may or may not be elitist.
I don’t want this to break down into an argument about semantics, but how do you define “elite” and “elitist?”
For me i consider “elitism” simply the practice of being “the elite player” aka “high-end player” aka “the-best-you-can-be” You can be elitist without being rude and shoving it down peoples throats. It just means you strive for the top end, most efficient way of playing.
So, not necessarily the derogatory, “play my way, or the highway..” definition of Elitism you hear so often on these forums.
I am not talking about boasting etc, I dislike skilled players who despise average players, but I like competition, I like to dream, I like to strive to be the best (in a healthy way), I like the fun and the motivation I get from being challenged! yet people hate me for my yearnings.
Elitism is not the problem here, what is wrong is averageism !!
I hate to have to be the one to tell you this, but calling people who are happy just playing and never getting better the problem is elitism. And for you to try and tell them how they should play is what is wrong.
I’m sorry if you don’t find this game challenging enough for you, but plenty of players do. If you need more challenge there are plenty of things you can do. Such as play with all whites or all greens or all rares, try a new class or a different build, try to accomplish something fairly difficult without dying or as a speed run, try to carry some of these less good players through some of the more difficult content, try to complete as many achievements as possible or find some other interesting way to handicap yourself so that you feel accomplished when you achieve something.
At the end of this game is what you make of it and trying to blame others for your grievances will only result in them pointing the finger back at you.
I’m not going to defend “elitists” but i do see a great deal of vocal players, who i guess we could call “purists.” People complain about lack of challenge, and “purists” come in crying elitism and telling you to stop complaining and enjoy the game and ignore your feelings of stagnation, or try playing with one hand tied behind your back.
IMO, the issue is with the way the content is designed (aka dungeons), all types of players will intermingle, unless you request a specific type of player through gw2lfg.com.
But since there is only one type of dungeon (exp) and no hard modes, raids, gated-content, what-have-you, the high-end, elitist players are still doing the same challenges that newer/casual players are doing. And when these players group together unknowingly, that when the issues surface.
At least in WoW, the elitists were kept seperate from everyone else, because they were focused on raids/hard-mode isntances that casuals didn’t have access, too, or couldn’t be bothered to put in that level of effort to compete at that level.
Neither style of play is wrong— but if two players are looking to get different things out of the game in the same content, you will begin to see a conflict.
This post nearly made me cry, its beautiful, neither is wrong.
Thank you. I appreciate the feedback. This insight actually came from someone esle on the forums—i’ll troll through my post history and update this to credit this source. Usually, people only reply to posts when they disagree, haha…so i couldn’t tell if mine got ignored or went without saying in the first place.
All the back and forth in this thread about “stop bragging!”…yeah it’s easy to nitpick the details of the post while ignoring the bigger issue.
I am not talking about boasting etc, I dislike skilled players who despise average players, but I like competition, I like to dream, I like to strive to be the best (in a healthy way), I like the fun and the motivation I get from being challenged! yet people hate me for my yearnings.
Elitism is not the problem here, what is wrong is averageism !!
I hate to have to be the one to tell you this, but calling people who are happy just playing and never getting better the problem is elitism. And for you to try and tell them how they should play is what is wrong.
I’m sorry if you don’t find this game challenging enough for you, but plenty of players do. If you need more challenge there are plenty of things you can do. Such as play with all whites or all greens or all rares, try a new class or a different build, try to accomplish something fairly difficult without dying or as a speed run, try to carry some of these less good players through some of the more difficult content, try to complete as many achievements as possible or find some other interesting way to handicap yourself so that you feel accomplished when you achieve something.
At the end of this game is what you make of it and trying to blame others for your grievances will only result in them pointing the finger back at you.
I’m not going to defend “elitists” but i do see a great deal of vocal players, who i guess we could call “purists.” People complain about lack of challenge, and “purists” come in crying elitism and telling you to stop complaining and enjoy the game and ignore your feelings of stagnation, or try playing with one hand tied behind your back.
IMO, the issue is with the way the content is designed (aka dungeons), all types of players will intermingle, unless you request a specific type of player through gw2lfg.com.
But since there is only one type of dungeon (exp) and no hard modes, raids, gated-content, what-have-you, the high-end, elitist players are still doing the same challenges that newer/casual players are doing. And when these players group together unknowingly, that when the issues surface.
At least in WoW, the elitists were kept seperate from everyone else, because they were focused on raids/hard-mode isntances that casuals didn’t have access, too, or couldn’t be bothered to put in that level of effort to compete at that level.
Neither style of play is wrong— but if two players are looking to get different things out of the game in the same content, you will begin to see a conflict.
(edited by Scrambles.2604)