Guild Wars 2

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Scrambles.2604:

hey guys. I’m gunna bump this thread when i receive my first duel request in Wildstar. I’ve been surrounded by dozens of people at any given point in the PvE world, but no duel requests yet

So, i will let you guys know when i get my first duel solicitation. And of course i will let you know when i get my first dose of harassment, duel spam, map chat abuse, what have you.

Hopefully, my own experience can dispel some of the myths surrounding the negative and “inevitable” consequences of a game with open world dueling.

I’m not against duelling but one person not being spammed/harassed with duel requests is hardly enough evidence to dispel this myth.

hey man. Case studies have there place, too!

If anything, i can dispell the “absolute” claims. As in, if duels were implemented there would “absolutely” be widespread abuse. I understand that those claims are very unrealistic in the first place, but you gotta start somewhere!

There is nothing to fear, brothers! The ability to duel doesn’t equal the inevitability of harassment! There is still hope!

hey guys. I’m gunna bump this thread when i receive my first duel request in Wildstar. I’ve been surrounded by dozens of people at any given point in the PvE world, but no duel requests yet

So, i will let you guys know when i get my first duel solicitation. And of course i will let you know when i get my first dose of harassment, duel spam, map chat abuse, what have you.

Hopefully, my own experience can dispel some of the myths surrounding the negative and “inevitable” consequences of a game with open world dueling.

Draknar.5748:

Scrambles.2604:

Yargesh.4965:

Vesuvius.9874:

Maliel.8362:

This is just typical behavior in games without subscription fees, have you ever visited the League of Legends forums?

I’m assuming there’s more whining there because more children play LoL . Grownups don’t whine, they provide feedback.

Grownups don’t whine?

“Critics who treat ‘adult’ as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up are the marks of childhood and adolescence.”

As far as I’m aware, whining as an action is not exclusive to children. Are you using the term grownup as a measure of maturity? I do agree that mature people, whether child or adult, don’t whine. Whining is a sign of immaturity. A mature person will express their dissatisfaction in a manner that isn’t whining.

It’s actually a c.s. lewis quote that i abbreviated. It was a reference to the idea that the concern over whether something is childish or not childish is a generally something only children worry about (which is kind of contradictory in itself, lol, but it’s still a good observation).

I’d link the whole quote but i don’t want to get suspended again for posting off-topic in an off-topic discussion. So, on topic – everyone whines and it’s silly to say that adults don’t whine, or make baseless assumptions about forum population demographics.

Realistically, we’re all adults at work on video game forums instead of working, lol. Kids don’t have to work and have better things to do. (disclaimer, this was another baseless assumption for the purpose of humor).

Yargesh.4965:

Vesuvius.9874:

Maliel.8362:

This is just typical behavior in games without subscription fees, have you ever visited the League of Legends forums?

I’m assuming there’s more whining there because more children play LoL . Grownups don’t whine, they provide feedback.

Grownups don’t whine?

“Critics who treat ‘adult’ as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up are the marks of childhood and adolescence.”

Yeah i was kind of in the same position as you, OP. Anticipating the ferocity patch, i built a set of condition gear, but ultimately went back to my zerker gear because i was more comfortable and familiar with that and also i fear change.

I still hit pretty hard and i enjoy my thief. The crit damage definitely got nerfed but i don’t feel any less effective. I still get big numbers (not AS big) and i can still drop in and out of combat at my leisure. But such is the life of a thief—you are the anti-hero that society will never understand, so you gotta roll with the punches. And if it’s not fun anymore play something else.

Rauderi.8706:

Scrambles.2604:

I really miss /inspect from WoW because i could check out random people’s gear in my downtime, or anytime i saw something cool or different i didn’t recognize.

/inspect is a harmless tool for new players and for scoping out different players “under the hood,” if you will.

Again, then why not ask them? Start a conversation. Might even get someone to add to your friends list out of it.
Just the other day, I had someone ask about my mesmer’s Desert Rose back piece that I got from Sanctum Sprint. Didn’t lead to much else in that case, but I was glad to answer the question. Heck, it reminded me that I’d even done the content.

And because chat linking is available, excluding groups already have an appropriate tool for their purposes. There’s not much sense in adding development time on it.

Why didn’t ANet add it from the start, or why would they be wary of including it? Mostly the potential for abuse. [shrug] It’d probably be rare and limited to restrictive groups (dungeon/fractal PUGs, guilds), but I don’t think ANet wants to encourage that kind of mentality.

Sooo.. my “no” stance is really more out of lack of necessity and somewhat mild concerns about jerkface. If /inspect did get included, I’d shrug and move on. Eh.

Yeah it’s easy to ask one person to ping their gear for my curiosity (assuming they aren’t afk or just wont respond), but when you want to casually peep at the people passing by, it becomes a little unreasonable to expect me to message 12-20 people to see their gear. It’s a burden on myself and others.

I feel like the accessibility /inspect offers is more significant a factor than the potential for the abuse. The dev time may not justify it but it’s not my place to prioritize development…obviously WoW though it was worth while and they seem to be doing OK.

Anet left a lot of things out at the start so i don’t think you can just assume whether or not it was intended. Also, i have little to no expectation of them implementing this, DPS meters, dueling, or anything that has ever been suggested on the forums. The past has shown that the few features they do ever implement are a low priority and take a long time to be added.

I just hate seeing resistance to useful, harmless features for the sake of saving the “little guys” from abuse. In conversation it seems like the abuse is constant and wide spread when in reality it only happens a small percentage of the time.

Even looking at a game like LoL, which is almost synonymous with player toxicity, realistically you only meet a jerk in about 1/10 games, which is still a lot, but not as much as you would expect based on what you read about it.

Rauderi.8706:

As for Inspect, no. If I’m not trying to be rude by sneak-trolling into a zerkspeedrun, no one needs to be investigating my gear. Honestly, I’d rather they ask and start a discussion on gear, build, and tactics, instead of making snap judgments based on how my gear does or doesn’t match what they read on some forum.

I really miss /inspect from WoW because i could check out random people’s gear in my downtime, or anytime i saw something cool or different i didn’t recognize.

I was naive, because i had assumed /inspect was a harmless tool for new players and for scoping out different players “under the hood,” if you will.

I had no idea that there was this overwhelming idea that /inspect was used solely for locking people out of groups. Especially since anyone that desires to do that can just make you ping your gear anyway, or someone who meets the group requirements would have no problem being inspected/pinging.

To me it seems like one must be really self-conscious if they are worried about other people looking at their gear…in a game designed around acquiring gear..lol. If i see someone in crap gear, i would naturally assume they are still in the process of gearing up, not that they are a bad player.

Palador.2170:

Okay, new question:

Would any of the people wanting to do open world duels be interested in costume brawl “toys” that are made to look like real weapons and have serious looking attacks as a way to duel? Say, “Dueling Pistol”, “Dueling Rapier”, and “Dueling Wand” for the set?

Yes, that means that everyone would have the same skills rather than using class abilities, which I realize misses part of the point. But it also:

• Uses an existing system, minimal work needed to add it to the game.
• Bypasses class balance problems.
• Has a clear path to profit for ANet.
• Makes it entirely about skill, rather than class balance or gear.

Would this be enough to make you happy? And would this be okay with those against in-world duels?

[Edit] And remember, costume brawl no longer requires costumes. You’d still be in your normal armor or outfits for this.

The suggestion is definitely appreciated, but not only does this not satisfy what most people expect to get out of “open world duels,” it doesn’t do anything to safeguard those who express concern about duels:

You would still be subject to unwanted solicitation for “costume duels,” you would still be vulnerable to people calling you out for losing a “costume duel” or not wanting to “costume duel” someone. “Costume duels” would still lead to unwanted map chatter and would also be visually distracting to those who don’t want to see “costume duels.”

You shouldn’t be trying to satisfy the open world duel crowd, they’re easy and their demands are pretty straightforward. The tough crowd to please are those who are against the idea open world duels and have no intention of compromising—The “if duels are implemented i’m uninstalling” crowd.

Rauderi.8706:

Scrambles.2604:

Rauderi.8706:

We wouldn’t even have these ‘zerker’ threads if speed-run groups had a better reputation for civility were accessible by everyone without having to expend effort or build skill.

I’m sensing some hypocracy in your zerker support modus operandus. -_-
And at the same time, I’m seeing evidence that supports my hypothesis.

Maybe I’m taking it the wrong way, but negating a statement about reputation and civility and turning it into a statement of blaming on “everyone” (read as “the bads”) with no “effort” or “skill” is exactly the kind of thing that turns people off.

Philosophically, you can’t call for “being nice to zerkers” in one breath and slam another group in the next and still be taken seriously. But maybe I misinterpreted, which is also possible.

I see what you are saying and no i did not mean it in that way or as a slight to a certain player base.

I don’t think it would make a difference what type of reputation speed-runners have. They could rudely tell you to leave, silently boot you, or politely ask you to depart, but none the less, the player will feel left out because they can’t participate in that group.

There is always a sense of animosity towards players that participate in exclusive content. If the content isn’t accessible for everyone, players get left out and get mad.

GW2 tried to avoid this by making all everyone in any gear viable for anything, and removing closed raids in favor of open world accessible raid-like content. Yet, the tid-bit of exclusionary content that exists is always under attack from people that can’t/wont participate in it.

Like i said in the quote i altered, this friction wouldn’t exist if any player in any gear could participate in speed runs. But unfortunately, the bar for speed-runs is set slightly higher, requiring you to optimally tune your character and gain the knowledge/experience/skills to do speed runs. Players are left out of this and get upset.

I’m sure there are speed-runners out there that are needlessly rude to players, just like there are players in this thread that are needlessly rude to speed-runners. But again, like zerkers, there is no reason to assume just because you are a speed-runner that you are also a jerk.

Rauderi.8706:

We wouldn’t even have these ‘zerker’ threads if speed-run groups had a better reputation for civility were accessible by everyone without having to expend effort or build skill.

Rauderi.8706:

Scrambles.2604:

Just because they wear zerker gear and blindly adhere to the meta doesn’t make it fair to lump anyone who wears zerker gear in the same group as jerk players.

And I did not.

Honestly, who do I want on the other side of a boss that I’m using my warrior to tank? The dps guy kitted out in the best kitten gear he can find. (And yes, I said tank. Because I do.) And the best dps gear is Berserker. No lie.

Heck, most of my warrior gear is Berserker, because my build is defensive, and I still get away with ignoring half the game’s damage mechanics and surviving things I shouldn’t. My friend dragged my build to PvP, and he got compliments for the synergy he provided.

I don’t even have (much of) a problem with “lf1m zerk only” as a description. It’s what those players want. It’s rude, but it’s what they want. A group like that is probably high stress, anyway, the moment a run goes north of 9 minutes.
I say the same thing about champ trains and guild runs and just about anything else.

Play how you want. Just don’t be a jerk about it.
What more needs to be said?

When you call it a “zerker mentality” it sounds like that is the mentality you assume everyone that runs zerker has.

When you refer to a whole group of people with a negative connotation due to the actions of the minority, it creates a conflict because you are indirectly attacking people that have done you no harm.

What more needs to be said? Nothing. In fact, the issue is that too much is being said.

We need to recognize that our problem lies with the bad apple players that reside in every single video game, and move away from picking out arbitrary characteristics these bad players contain (wearing zerker gear), only to attack everyone that also shares those arbitrary characteristics.

Rauderi.8706:

Sigh, can we stop having this “discussion” already?

Berserker gear is fine.

Yes, there are elitists who would use any and every measure to exclude “bads” from groups. Let them wait in LFG queues.

Yes, there are players and white knights who will take anyone to a group, maybe even teach them dungeon mechanics. They are brave and patient souls indeed. Let them make LFG runs with “full clear” or “casual” in their descriptions.

Does the zerker mentality annoy me? Sure does. I’m a big boy, and I’m learning to ignore it and make my own groups for how I want to play.

This is very much an agree to disagree situation and doesn’t need champs from both sides trying to “kill/exalt zerker meta.”

Don’t you see that you’re perpetuating the very issue you’re complaining about by calling it the “zerker mentality?” I hesitate to call it even call it “elitist,” because elitist would imply a level of exclusivity that pugs would never be eligible to participate in.

It’s not a “zerker mentality” it’s a “jerk player mentality.” It’s jerk players that call you out for no reason, join pugs expecting organized-run level optimization, boot you for running on your ranger, thief, or upleveled, etc.

Just because they wear zerker gear and blindly adhere to the meta doesn’t make it fair to lump anyone who wears zerker gear in the same group as jerk players.

pdavis.8031:

While I agree with that, from my experience, it’s the mindset that TENDS to come with the gear. You see it even in this thread, with phrases like “Sub Par”, “Sub optimal”, “better skilled”, etc. It’s subtle, but it’s there. While a non DPS {insert gear here} build is “sub optimal” when compared to a DPS beserker build, doesn’t mean that gear set/build is bad, unless you are trying to do conditions with healing gear, and physical damage traits on the weapon sets that you don’t have, or something.

So while it may NOT be the gear in and of itself, but as you said, it’s a spring board for that behavior. Again, from my experience, its those running those builds and gearsets who tend to be the worst perpetrators of that behavior. I’ve yet to be chewed out by a cleric build for not doing x,y,z in a dungeon run. So yes, my issue is not with the gear itself, but the attitude that the gear fosters.

I’m glad we’re on the same page but it still seems like you are lumping zerker gear with your problem. Yes, bad mannered players seem to also run zerker gear, but bad mannered players would be more likely to blindly enforce the meta over people they can be rude to.

Think of all the proper, well meaning players that also run zerker gear. All it is, is a type of gear that orients your stats a certain way, yet because of the bad mannered players, we’ve developed a negative connotation that we associate with players just because of how they orient their stats.

Otherwise, ANY gear type is VIABLE but only a certain build type is OPTIMAL. Just because it’s not optimal doesn’t make it a bad thing. Don’t be offended if someone says your gear type isn’t optimal. If you’re goal IS to build optimally then you would probably be willing to seek constructive criticism on why your build isn’t optimal, but if it’s not your goal then who cares if your build isn’t optimal?

pdavis.8031:

I have to agree with OP on several points. Yes the Beserker meta is fine. Yes it’s largly due to mechanical and content design that push towards glass cannon builds. However, my main issue with the beserker meta is that it tends to bring out the worst in players. I generally run PUGs with “any welcome” tags, and do quite well most of the time. They may not always be speed clears, but we generally have a good time. However we do get the beserker “elitist” jerk in the party occassionally who will insult the other players who may be having a hard time, or new to the dungeon. I get alot of flack for using a valk warrior axe/axe build with shouts or banners. I am good at this build, having spend alot of time and research into how to play it well. I don’t join “zerker only” or “speed clear” LFGs. If anyone wants to do a glass cannon berserk build. Great! More power to you! But please, for the Six sake, don’t hate on those who don’t feel the same way about beserker as you do. Don’t think that because we have a different play style/build that we are bad players. Our builds require just as much skill as beserker, just different. We still need to know when to dodge, watch telegraphs, when to pop a certain utility or weapon skill, use what skills at what times for combo finishers and fields, etc.

Thats all we ask, and thats why some non beserkers, at least from what I see, feel the way we do about beserkers.

but you see, your issue has very little to do with zerker. It’s jerk players that are just using zerker as a springboard for their jerkiness. It doesn’t always present itself as zerker, sometimes it’s classism (no rangers!), sometimes it’s rage towards uplevels, etc.

Despite your best efforts to explicitly state your /lfg description, you will inevitably get a player who insists on imposing his “higher” standards on a group which is intentionally operating at lower standards. But you will run into this same type of player everywhere, in any game.

It has very little to do with zerker gear, but more-so, an arrogant individual who feels the desire to needlessly enforce what he believes are the standards with which the rest of the group should operate, whether the rest of the group wants to or not.

Good post OP.

When people complain about zerker gear, i like to tell the story of my Ele that started running dungeons in PVT gear. As i got more comfortable in my play and getting by with dodge rolls and utility skills, i started shedding pieces of my PVT and replacing them with zerker, until one day i found myself in full zerker gear.

I don’t see it as a “zerker playstyle,” but more simply a natural progression of getting more skilled with my toon.

Of course, this only works in PvE. Go to WvW and you’ll see all sorts of gear combinations that work way better than zerker, depending on the situation.

frans.8092:

1) DPS meters and inspect commands will not answer the underlying question when inviting someone to your group, which is, I assume, something like “will this player fit in our group” and / or “will this player perform to my expectations”. No tool that we can think of could reliably answer that question.

2) people, quite understandable, do not like to be judged on such simplified criteria

3) people will adjust their behavior to optimize their results against the test-criteria, they will stop sharing boons, they will hesitate to resurrect downed players, they will do whatever it takes to improve their results on the DPS meter.

I don’t think anyone is arguing for DPS meters or inspect as a tool to predict player performance. /Inspect would be the closest, but only because people in zerker gear synergize best with other people in zerker gear.

If anything, people are arguing against those tools because of the perception they may be [wrongly] used for predictors of group performance. In that case, just stick to using /lfg properly and there will be no issue.

I don’t think players will alter their playstyle in a way that negatively effects the group because of DPS meters.

First of all, the gameplay fosters this—someone goes down so you keep DPSing to rally.

But more importantly, if you’re going for optimal DPS just for the sake of going for the “high score,” you will also require an optimal group to do this. If people are going down you are not in an optimal setting so attempting optimal “high score” DPS is futile and anyone would know this that is attempting it.

Ultimately, all the issues attributed to “DPS meters” or “inspect” can be more simply attributed to improper usage of the grouping system. If you want a specific group you must spell it out in /LFG, and if you are joining a specific group you should adhere to the /lfg description or make your own party.

It’s really not as difficult as you guys are making it out to be. I feel like you just plain don’t like the idea of DPS meters or inspect and you are reaching out to find different reasons to justify these feelings.

Star Ace.5207:

This is a troll thread (honest truth, and no offense intended) but it serves it purpose to prove to ANet why it would 100% of the time be a bad idea to add any of these things Dark Catalyst assumedly “would like” in the game. Thanks to those with open-minded, intelligent posts at either side of the issue, and to those who posted the usual toxicity (anti-“playwhoyouwants”-a ridiculous epithet if there’s one), well, you just proved why your darned gearscores will (thankfully) never be implemented.

Ultimately, playing in Berserker’s gear is not bad at all (nor is forming your own speedrun, efficiency-minded groups), but being an elitist jerk is. You can be a speedrunner without the jerk/bully part attached to it.

You can’t act like your above the present conversation if you’re going label people as “elitist jerks” in the same breath that you are complaining about others labeling “playhowyouwants.” Doesn’t that seem a little hypocritical?

I don’t know why you guys keep complaining about gearscores. Gearscores worked in WoW because you literally couldn’t beat certain content without X gearscore. That is not the case in GW2, where everything can be beaten wearing anything.

/inspect could be used for reinforcing /lfg preference. but i don’t see why anyone thinks that would be a bad thing. It’s just like pinging your gear except it’s easier to do and more accurate. I never realized how many people ping different sets of gear til i started reading some of the responses in this thread, which leads me to believe pinging isn’t enough.

I try to run dungeon groups without zerkers and /inspect would be a great way to keep zerkers from sneaking into my groups, beyond the other utilities /inspect would provide to new players and players that just like to scope out other people’s builds/gear.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Scrambles.2604:

Personal meters are great, but if you have no idea what type of damage your teammates are putting out, you’ll be like Mr. PVT guardian over here thinking your big numbers are comparable to your peers in zerker gear.

Personal meters are great for personal progress, but tell you nothing about how you would stack up in a team environment. Of course, you can ask other people about their DPS but nothing is more accurate or accessible than seeing your teammates’ metrics via combat meter.

If you want to compare, then ask. Now, if people want to insist on group meters for some legitimate reason, then I’ll insist on having the ability to not show up on such group meters in any fashion unless I want to allow it. It’s also never going to be accurate as a group setting. Someone gets downed? Their damage goes poof. Someone stops to help get them up? Their damage goes poof. Someone starts a buff rotation that doesnt involve damaging enemies? Their damage goes poof. Someone relying on both direct damage and condi damage? Their damage is misrepresented. Comparing damage as a zerker mesmer to the damage of a zerker warrior in your party? Cant even begin to describe how lopsided that is. Even something as a simple “Damage over Run” display is going to be inaccurate.

Honestly, it sounds like you’ve never used a damage meter before. Recount in WoW was a pretty incredible addon that pretty much kept track of everything. My favorite was the “record crit,” which would let you know when you make a critical hit higher than you’ve ever done before.

You’re right, you could just ask. But then you would have to deal with this PVT guardian exaggerating his damage claims with no evidence to the contrary

Aidan Savage.2078:

Scrambles.2604:

“Your type?” Are you kidding me, man? Have you been so traumatized by WoW that you automatically assume anyone that is in favor of DPS meters is also a troll that will boot you from groups?

Personal meters are far different in concept, execution, and acceptance than group meters. Personal meters allow you do get that improvement scale you desire, and completely eliminate the unavoidable discrimination, hatred, and disgusting attitudes you see. In fact, you see a lot of them in this thread, and I find them a bunch of fools who I’d not even want to be in a party with in the first place. They can go make their own parties to compare kittens, while the rest of us make our own parties.

The problem is, players dont always read (like getting a ranger in a Fractal 38 run when the LFG blatantly states “need a warrior”), and still bring the disgusting filth of their notions of how to play the game with them to the party. If I advertise a group to run a Fractal 1-9 for daily tier and that anyone’s welcome, including Fractal noobs, I dont expect the run to finish fast. So when someone begins complaining that it’s taking the first fractal 10 minutes to complete even though I spent half of that explaining how to run the Swamp fractal to 3 people who have never touched Fractals, I say only one thing: please second the kick. People like that I dont enjoy in my groups when I’m taking the time to do a run that basically teaches player things they’ve never done before.

Personal meters are great, but if you have no idea what type of damage your teammates are putting out, you’ll be like Mr. PVT guardian over here thinking your big numbers are comparable to your peers in zerker gear.

Personal meters are great for personal progress, but tell you nothing about how you would stack up in a team environment. Of course, you can ask other people about their DPS but nothing is more accurate or accessible than seeing your teammates’ metrics via combat meter.

anzenketh.3759:

Scrambles.2604:

why would you want to play with someone like that?

I would argue (even just looking by at this thread) that the majority of players don’t care how you gear. Just make your own parties.

You guys make this so hard when you continue to play the role of a “victim.” Stop giving the power to the trolls and bullies!!

I don’t want to play with someone like that. I don’t go look for them. I don’t try to find them. They find us.

I agree the majority of players don’t care. I also do make my own parties. I don’t join your type.

The point is a group DPS meter will be exploited by trolls and bullies to the point that they will take it out. So why even put it in. That is what the players against DPS meters don’t want to deal with. If everyone would use it properly there would be no argument no disagreement. The problem is everyone won’t.

Please read my threads in this post to understand my opinion on the matter. Please also try to understand my position before you assume what it is.

“Your type?” Are you kidding me, man? Have you been so traumatized by WoW that you automatically assume anyone that is in favor of DPS meters is also a troll that will boot you from groups?

I shouldn’t have to defend myself from these type of accusations. It’s like your assuming just because i have PVT gear i’m also a bad player.

I could care less how other people play. I just want to improve my own play, and in an effort to do that, metric feedback that is more detailed than the combat log would be crucial.

You are so determined to fight against potential harassment that you are willing to become the harasser yourself.

furthermore— I joined a group with one of these players you despise so much, and for no good reason he boots one of the dudes from our party. So, i’m like “are you serious, man?”

And i left the group!! I msged the other guys in the party and they join my group, and now the rude player is left by himself with no one to group with. If you stop playing the victim or trying to white knight for potential victims, you can actually fight against the trolls!

anzenketh.3759:

Scrambles.2604:

…..

And in my opinion, privacy concerns about your gear/stats is a little silly. If you build weird, OWN IT! Be confident! If i see someone with crap gear, i don’t automatically assume they’re a crap player, i just assume they’re still in the process of gearing just like the rest of us. Not everyone has optimal/BIS best gear all the time on all their toons. And with the price of runes nowadays i wouldn’t blame someone for still wearing the cof runes their gear came with.

But some people do automatically assume they are a bad player. A lot players rather not deal with the hassle that comes along with it.

why would you want to play with someone like that?

I would argue (even just looking by at this thread) that the majority of players don’t care how you gear. Just make your own parties.

You guys make this so hard when you continue to play the role of a “victim.” Stop giving the power to the trolls and bullies!!

Rouven.7409:

Scrambles.2604:

It’s a tough argument, cuz no one ever believes me, but i miss being able to casually view other people’s gear without having to bother them. (…)

Does that mean you are not buying my slogan? Mh, ok.

I understand where you are coming from. I’m fine with it. I do believe it’s considered rude in some other cultures to look without asking. Just going from memory about the inspect topic in a different game, can’t remember which one though.

Hey, I’ve done it too, didn’t want to bother the person and liked his shirt (so to speak). I’m shy.

Haha, no i’m not buying. Unless i can convert gold to gems and then buy it, then you may have a deal :P

I’m not sure if you’re being serious or not (either way it’s cool with me), but yes, somethings we take for granted may be rude in other cultures.

However, in an MMO with /inspect you have no way of knowing if 100 people inspected you or 0 people inspected you. Out of sight out of mind.

And in my opinion, privacy concerns about your gear/stats is a little silly. If you build weird, OWN IT! Be confident! If i see someone with crap gear, i don’t automatically assume they’re a crap player, i just assume they’re still in the process of gearing just like the rest of us. Not everyone has optimal/BIS best gear all the time on all their toons. And with the price of runes nowadays i wouldn’t blame someone for still wearing the cof runes their gear came with.

Rouven.7409:

How come no one ever says – find or create a guild. Seriously, if you are in a group of like minded people you surely don’t have to inspect their gear, right? Elite Dungeoneers code of honour, I shall not do less than one gazillion DPS (pm me, I am selling the copyright to that slogan).

There is nothing wrong with that! Get together and finally play with other maximum efficiency oriented people, there are bound to be enough to warrant a 24/7 coverage?!

For the record, I’m all for it btw, best thing that could ever happen, because it would save my time and your time. No hard feelings from my side.

However, deep down inside you know the potential for drama and negative emotions.

It’s a tough argument, cuz no one ever believes me, but i miss being able to casually view other people’s gear without having to bother them.

I’m not the type of person to boot you from a group based on your gear, but i am very curious about what type of builds random people will run and occasionally i see a piece of gear i don’t recognize so i would like to check it out.

Like you said, you can ping your gear so it’s not a big issue, unless you really wanna see someones gear while their afk or just not responding for whatever reason. But I hate the idea that the only reason people want /inspect is so they can kick them from groups for not wearing zerker/make fun of people based on their gear or whatever.

If someone is going to boot you for your gear, they’ll just ask you to ping. I don’t think an inspect feature would change anything, except for being a valuable resource to new players or players that want to peep at other peoples builds without actually asking them.

In WoW i could sit in Ironforge for great lengths of time just looking at how people have geared themselves. You can’t expect me to message 20 people at a time in GW2 just to get them to ping me their gear.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

I would like to see these two things in game. By allowing players like me use these tools, you are making it possible for us to “play how we want”. What’s wrong with being able to control the quality of player that I let into my party?

I would also like to see more instanced content.

Yes, play how YOU want by forcing others to play how YOU want. Right. I’m sorry, but gear inspection is unnecessary, and damage meters are just as useless.

Quality of player is not dictated by wearing zerker, and dealing 92384756932476234987562349875639487562349875 damage. You want to find a quality player? Run the dungeon. The player fails miserably and dies to easy stuff? Bad quality. Player stays alive through stuff that you die to? Better quality.

Some players like to get feedback on their damage and some people like running zerker gear with other zerkers. Play how you want goes both ways, man.

You just gotta be explicit with your /lfg to make sure you party’s expectations match your own. The only issues arise when people try to implement optimal play styles in pugs, or when players haphazardly join speed runs they aren’t built/prepared for.

Everyone keeps blaming DPS meters for issues that are caused by poor communication, poor group advertising, and a small percentage of toxic players that exist in every MMO community.

Xae Isareth.1364:

On the topic though, lets pose a theoretical question. You’re doing perfect rotations, you’re looking forwards to seeing your sweet DPS record on a fight, then a party member gets downed next to you. What do you do?

Is that a real question? You keep DPSing so that they rally and come up

Or you pull them up. You can’t expect optimal DPS if your running with a group that isn’t also performing at their best.

Serophous.9085:

Look, what people are really asking for with dps meters and inspect is “can we have gear score? We are trying to rate people on achievement points, but that way isnt working too well.”

You can’t really compare it to gearscore, though. Gearscore was an indicator of what level of content you were capable of running, as in, you literally wont be able to complete this dungeon if your group is running less than X gearscore.

The content in GW2 can be completed by anyone wearing anything. The next step is doing it faster/better/etc, which a DPS meter would be a great tool in that regard.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Scrambles.2604:

Honestly, you could just do the same thing that was suggested in the duel thread: Add it as an opt-in Gem Store feature. That way, there is a real barrier to entry and a legitimate excuse for not having the DPS meter, while making it accessible to those that would enjoy using it.

As much as I dislike the idea of game features in the store in a B2P game, this idea has some merit. The biggest problem for dedicated groups – whether they be efficiency or laissez-faire — is joiners who don’t respect the group’s preferences. A gem store add-on DPS meter and even /inspect enable would at least solve the problem for the efficiency people. Now if we could also buy a dipstick detector, it would be perfect.

I understand the dislike for the Gem store. I haven’t spent anything in the gem store, i just buy stuff with gold.

I don’t really see a difference between buying something like a commander tag for 100g, or converting 100g to gems to buy a DPS meter. As long as you can convert money to gold, everything in this game is B2P, regardless of if it’s sold by a vendor or in the Gem store.

anzenketh.3759:

Problem with that it is not OPT in for the player you are reading the damage on. Please see my previous post for why that is important.

Ideally you couldn’t view someone else’s DPS unless they also got the Gem store feature. Otherwise my suggestion would be kind of pointless, haha.

Edit; I think the fear of being put down for being at the bottom of the DPS charts is irrational and overstated. Someone will ALWAYS be at the bottom of the DPS charts, even if they did everything right. No one cares what the charts show if the run is going smoothly. You will only be called out if you are making mistakes that are making it difficult for others, things that are noticeable without a DPS meter and still don’t even happen that often.

The people you are worried about are the small percentage of players that will harass you regardless of the context. We see more and more now that these players exist everywhere and not just in the context of a suggested feature you don’t like.

Xae Isareth.1364:

I think what came out of these threads is that some players like DPS meters, some don’t. Anet going either way is going to annoy players.

But the question then becomes, “How will the players that don’t like it be effected?”

I think it is very realistic to implement and not effect players that don’t care about their DPS.

anzenketh.3759:

Scrambles.2604:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

@Scramble, if the dps meter is purely for personal improvement, it doesn’t need to be group wide.

A group wide tool is definitely beneficial, though.

While your personal DPS may improve as you get better, you could still be way behind other players’ DPS and not know it.

If you see that you are consistently at the bottom of the charts, you can tell there may be something you can improve on. Even if you think you are doing everything right there could be something very simple you are missing. But if you only see your numbers go up, you may have no idea there is an issue with your performance, relative to your peers.

You could always just ask your teammates, so it’s not necessarily a deal breaker, but i think a group wide tool is much more accessible and accurate.

Solution group with like minded players and ask them what their average DPS is if a tool like that ever exists on a personal level. Group wide will just be exploited by un-friendly players and further drive the zerker meta(one that I think is unhealthy for the game).

Your solution (group with like minded players) would actually mitigate any issue caused by a group wide DPS meter.

I said in the first place that you could just ask people, but you are sacrificing accessibility, accuracy, and increasing the burden on other players to respond to your requests, in order to cater to players that don’t have any interest joining optimal groups in the first place.

Honestly, you could just do the same thing that was suggested in the duel thread: Add it as an opt-in Gem Store feature. That way, there is a real barrier to entry and a legitimate excuse for not having the DPS meter, while making it accessible to those that would enjoy using it.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

@Scramble, if the dps meter is purely for personal improvement, it doesn’t need to be group wide.

A group wide tool is definitely beneficial, though.

While your personal DPS may improve as you get better, you could still be way behind other players’ DPS and not know it.

If you see that you are consistently at the bottom of the charts, you can tell there may be something you can improve on. Even if you think you are doing everything right there could be something very simple you are missing. But if you only see your numbers go up, you may have no idea there is an issue with your performance, relative to your peers.

You could always just ask your teammates, so it’s not necessarily a deal breaker, but i think a group wide tool is much more accessible and accurate.

Nice try Dark Catalyst, but people in the game are more afraid of being made fun of then they are driven to improve their play.

I gotta say, the DPS meter in WS beta was a breath of fresh air. It was nice to see the numbers reflect my personal progression as i figured out better ways to combo my skills.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Scrambles.2604:

Brother Grimm.5176:

I think if every high level player that ran QD Champ Train goes to Orr, Anet’s goals will have been met. Note they did NOT nerf Champ Train rewards any farther, just removed all Champs from Starter Zones. It is a location specific change, not an activity/reward change.

Claiming that PvE is being “attacked” by the Devs is just another massive exaggeration that this forum is famous for….

I get that Orr is a lvl 80 zone, but isn’t the whole point of down-leveling in this game to encourage max levels players to play in all the zones, and not just lvl 80 zones?

True, but the WHOLE zone not just 5 little pieces of it and ignore the rest.

yeah, you’re right. I guess it would be unfair to let players figure out for themselves where they would like to spend their time.

Solandri.9640:

snip

i think you got confused on my first point. I was referring to the people celebrating the end of the QD train (the vocal majority on the forums). They are happy the toxic players lost out on their train, while the majority of people that ran the train were normal, friendly players.

To your second point, i don’t think it’s fair to blame regular players for not confronting the rude players, or to even assume to know any frequency at which these attempts to confront rude players did occur.

Calling out a troll in map chat is just adding more fuel to the flames, and people that complain about map chat wont see it as righteous defense of the innocent but just more arguing attributed to the QD train.

In my experience, the best way to deal with trolls is to leave them alone and ignore them. The whole point of a troll is to solicit a response. Usually, confronting a troll in map chat just leads to more of the same chatter that people were complaining about having to read in the first place.

In conclusion, when you are celebrating the loss of the QD train, don’t forget about the majority of the train riders that never did anything wrong, or even went out of their way to help people, who are also effected by the loss of the train.

It’s up to Anet to decide what features to keep and get rid of, but there is no reason why the community should be victimizing people that enjoyed an activity because there is a false perception that the bad apples are the rule rather than the exception.

Brother Grimm.5176:

I think if every high level player that ran QD Champ Train goes to Orr, Anet’s goals will have been met. Note they did NOT nerf Champ Train rewards any farther, just removed all Champs from Starter Zones. It is a location specific change, not an activity/reward change.

Claiming that PvE is being “attacked” by the Devs is just another massive exaggeration that this forum is famous for….

I get that Orr is a lvl 80 zone, but isn’t the whole point of down-leveling in this game to encourage max levels players to play in all the zones, and not just lvl 80 zones?

zoejo.2317:

Just because you fail to see something doesn’t mean it’s not there, and valid.
You saw it happen once, others saw it repeatedly. For every person that speaks in map chat, tons more have seen it. Some, if not most, new players. Even if they don’t say anything, they’re still exposed to toxicity between players (both sides) and that’s their first impression of the game’s community.

While I wasn’t in favor of just ending the train, I was in favor of doing something about the attitude that has been punished in whisper (insults, etc), so why not in other types of chat? It happened so that the solution chosen was to shutdown the train, but that’s hardly a problem for train runners: there’s plenty of other spots where you can keep this tradition alive. And hopefully they won’t generate so much hate in chat, or won’t be exactly where new players get their first impression of the game.

You’re still operating under the assumption that all players on the train are responsible for the actions of the few people that were rude. I think it’s wrong to celebrate the loss of those that are not responsible for the toxicity in chat.

If were cutting features based on map chat toxicity, i would start with the living story haha.

Vesuvius.9874:

snip

then maybe my comments weren’t directed at you. I was referring to players celebrating the fact that others can’t run the QD train anymore.

Vesuvius.9874:

Scrambles.2604:

I guess i don’t understand the perspective of someone who finds joy in someone else’s misery.

I guess people are finding joy in the misery of those that made Queensdale miserable for the new players.

See, and i don’t understand that perspective. If you believe that, then you also have to believe that ALL the players running QD train were miserable towards new players.

Even the few times i did see volatility in map chat, it was only like 1 person.

Given that, you are celebrating the loss of those who were a majority of QD train runners, who were just regular players, and justifying it because a small percentage of the QD train runners were rude.

I guess it’s a very narrow perspective which is why i fail to grasp it myself.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Scrambles.2604:

zoejo.2317:

Scrambles.2604:

The only people that seem happy about the QD train nerf are people that didn’t run the train in the first place.

It makes me wonder about the state of the community when the vocal majority is celebrating the misfortune of others.

Or fortune of others. The issue wasn’t at all one sided.

I guess i don’t see what you have gained from the loss of the QD zerg if you didn’t run it.

I personally don’t gain anything from these nerfs, because I actually ran with the zerg from time to time to level alts + get a bit of loot, but I can see why they did what they did.

That’s cool and all, but i was addressing the large faction of the forum community that is celebrating the loss of the train that they also didn’t run. I guess i don’t understand the perspective of someone who finds joy in someone else’s misery.

It’s as if some players themselves have turned into the toxic players they claim ruined the queensdale zerg.

zoejo.2317:

Scrambles.2604:

The only people that seem happy about the QD train nerf are people that didn’t run the train in the first place.

It makes me wonder about the state of the community when the vocal majority is celebrating the misfortune of others.

Or fortune of others. The issue wasn’t at all one sided.

I guess i don’t see what you have gained from the loss of the QD zerg if you didn’t run it.

I stick to WvW so nothing has changed for me, except the occasional champ bag since i logged in and out at a champ spot. I just hate to see a player generated activity in the open world get killed.

The only people that seem happy about the QD train nerf are people that didn’t run the train in the first place.

It makes me wonder about the state of the community when the vocal majority is celebrating the misfortune of others.

ITT: Players who didn’t run the queensdale train are happy that other players that enjoyed the train can no longer do so. “Play how you want” at its finest

JustTrogdor.7892:

Scrambles.2604:

Anet is on track to remove more content than they’ve added, haha.

For once I agree with you.

hahaha, yeah something must be wrong if we both agree on it

Ayrilana.1396:

Scrambles.2604:

Anet is on track to remove more content than they’ve added, haha.

The events are still there…

I’m just surprised they killed off an activity so many players participated in. It’s a bold move.

Anet is on track to remove more content than they’ve added, haha.

Mac.3872:

CureForLiving.5360:

Why would ANet go through the effort of making and supporting a VoIP service when they can just shift all that effort on third parties?

It does seem a tad ‘unprofessional’

it would be cool to have an Anet sponsored TS server for each server.

Of course, the TS server that is owned and moderated by the players would still be the best for WvW (because you can keep spies off the server), but it would be nice to have the option of an open TS that players didn’t have to pay for that also didn’t require you to be verified by another player that may not be available all the time.

I saw this thread and wanted to make a satirical comment about how we shouldn’t have in game voice comms because it would lead to abuse. Trogdor beat me to it, haha.

Plenty of other games manage in game voice communications, so i think GW2 could manage. I would put this pretty low on their priority list though, unless they can contract Teamspeak to start accepting subscription payments in Gems

it sucks to have to do it, but i found that turning down the number of players shown on screen helps with the clutter a little bit.

You can WvW at a low level, you just have to play tactfully and be aware of your limitations. You can still carry supply, which is incredibly valuable. Not to mention, low levels make excellent scouts. It’s all the benefits of having a scout without removing someone valuable from the front lines.

You can find safety running with the map zerg (especially if you’re on TS), and depending on your class you can provide useful fields/blast finishers.

Otherwise, prioritize staying alive over getting tags/kills and you should be fine.

JustTrogdor.7892:

Scrambles.2604:

Personally, i have felt like i’ve been able to refine my argument after hearing the same tired lines about harassment repeated constantly.

Yeah that is why you got a few day forum vacation LOL.

hahaha, yeah that wasn’t part of my argument. I felt left out cuz i was the only one that didn’t get a rude pm

JustTrogdor.7892:

The same old stuff over and over with almost the same people saying the same thing over an over. Some of us will never agree but is it worth it to say so over and over again? Do you think Anet is really keyed in on this thread to see who get’s the last word? I doubt it. Sometimes it is best to just let go….

haha. The same people arguing the same things, and the same old Trogdor coming into a duel thread to comment on the same people arguing about the same things

Personally, i have felt like i’ve been able to refine my argument after hearing the same tired lines about harassment repeated constantly.

Also this thread has a ton of views, so while it may be the same dozen people debating back and forth i’m willing to bet there are a lot of unique viewers.

pdavis.8031:

True, while cyber bullying is not the only factor, it is a catalyst. But that doesn’t make it any less tragic or less of an issue. And as you said, there are other avenues for harassment already in place. So why add one more? One more thats been proven to be a major source of griefing and harassment. A large portion of Anti duelers point out that harassment is their major concern. Even with the safeguards.

As for me, I cannot imagine a GW2 world in which PvE dueling exists. With or without safeguards. I don’t see it fitting into the GW universe.

Why add more? I don’t think we should pick and choose what features we have access to based on the worst and smallest percentage of the population. Also, all the evidence that dueling is a “major source of greifing” is anecdotal and comes from the same people that don’t care about or want to see duels.

I think it’s more reasonable to believe that dueling will be no more of a catalyst for harassment than any other features in the game. Just because it gives you the option to solicit another person doesn’t mean it will be frequently abused. Party invites can be abused the same way yet we hear little complaints about party invite spam or harassment.

Just because dueling involves fighting or an element of competitiveness doesn’t automatically make it troll bait. That is a stereotype— just because you enjoy competitive games doesn’t automatically make you a troll or a griefer. Personally, i’ve made more friends in old games via dueling with strangers. I’ve also experienced more harassment in the PvE areas of GW2 than in sPvP or WvW. That doesn’t mean that i automatically assume you are a bully if you are a dungeon runner or strict PvE player.

pdavis.8031:

So how exactly does the wardrobe and LS season 2 invite harrassment? And trivializing peoples ability to handle harassment is not ok. People have LITERALLY killed themselves over cyber bullying. For whatever reason they couldn’t handle it. No matter which form it takes, harassment is harassment. There are several reasons I am against PvE open dueling. Harassment being one of those. As much as we all would like to think the the GW community is a place full of wonderful, respectful, and amazing people. It’s not. This thread is an example of that. There is ALWAYS going to be those who grief, troll, and harass others whether in game or on the forums. Whether it’s over PvE dueling, or the pug they were in got wiped in a dungeon because not everyone knew what to do. A system such as PvE dueling would only serve to draw those who take a preverse joy in harassing others. Not that it would be exclusivly those types of people, but having a mechanic for them to operate in would encourage that behavior.

Also duels in PvE would ruin the experience for MANY players. In a world that is designed around community and group dynamics, and the peoples of the world joining forces to combat the Elder Dragons, and the other dangers that plague the world. PvE, as said before, is about working TOGETHER. Having duels, even as a form of entertainment, would not fit into the philosophy of the game world.

Suicide as a result of cyber bullying can’t be attributed to cyberbullying alone. Suicide is a very complex issue and to attribute one factor to the cause trivializes it. That being said, you have unreasonable expectations if you go into a multiplayer game or MMO and expect to never face any harassment or griefing.

LS has brought more griefing and harassment than any other part of the game i’ve witnessed. Get a large group of players together (new and experienced) with specific, yet not very well spelled out goals and queue the animosity. Should we advocate against LS2, because harassment is an inevitable consequence of LS? No not at all. Give the players features while incorporating tools to prevent and defend against harassment.

Wardrobe invites harassment because it easily shows the time and effort someone puts into the character, making them subject to ridicule. Again, potential for harassment exists, but in an effort to reduce it, we add features with tools to prevent and defend against harassment.

Otherwise, you and others keep imagining a world where open world duels exists without any current or additional safeguards, which conveniently reinforces your argument.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

I’m not concerned about what’s done to me as an individual I’m concerned about the GW2 community. You can say it’s unlikely if you wish but that doesn’t change the fact that someone will have to tolerate this kind of behavior and I don’t think anyone should have to. It’s just a form of superiority and bullying that this game doesn’t need.
If there are designated areas where people can duel that is completely fine. But open world is not. Not everyone wants to participate in duels and the ones that don’t and just so happen to be asked to may be scrutinized for denying a request and harassed because “if you don’t want to play the game go somewhere else.”
So again, I don’t care what happens to me as an individual if this sort of thing were introduced to the game, but there are others I would be concerned for… Some people have soft hearts and despite a few harsh words seeming childish to some, to others it may seriously hurt them.

ah yes…Wont someone think of the children!?