Guild Wars 2

Brtiva.9721:

Neural.1824:

These threads never get old.

There are two things at play here.

1. Griefers are apoplectic that Guild Wars 2 is so well designed that they can’t get their jollies from harassing any person they come across.

2. Another group, just as belligerent, is upset because Anet doesn’t provide a way for them to get attention from a captive audience.

I have yet to meet someone who is pro-dueling that doesn’t exude a completely toxic attitude while spending an exorbitant amount of time justifying why other people should be forced to watch them prove their manhood against someone else.

And to the notion that “harassment” is the issue, not dueling….we hear the same argument for open world pvp in pve zones. "It is not owpvp that is bad, it is harassment that is bad. They are 2 different things!’

If one believes this, it is spooky. The arguments are truly disingenuous.

Dueling is a huge jerk magnet. It is not about those who will just duel friends.
I have noted elsewhere my disgusting experience with it in gaming over the years. To think it will be any different here is insanity.

Rather than a rare occurrence, it was (went I finally quit my last game) a daily frustration cured only by going to a different map and hopefully being left alone there. often logging off and not playing was the best answer. These nut cases simply get too big a thrill out of harassing you, and dueling is a perfect vehicle for it. Not as good as the opportunities offered by open world pvp on pve maps (a griefers playground), but it serves just fine. The perfect flash point for harassment.

Which, after dueling is introduced, will be the subject of the next endless campaig . “Because ganking is not pvp…why can’t we have open world pvp on pve maps? Harrassment is the issue, not owpvp! We need it! The game will die without it!Only the entitled oppose this! There is no reason not to have owpvp on pve maps!”

Hopefully anet will not start down this road and make pve maps the playground for griefers. But they well may do it; they have made some awful changes recently already.

I have previously mentioned that I feel bad about giving “no votes” to things that some people would find fun but carry huge negatives with them.

The dismissive tone and condescension (and the absurd lengths to which words and arguments are twisted to serve cross purposes) has rather changed my feeling. It is hard to have sympathy for those whom in the future I suspect will be the very ones to cause me grief in game.

There is a big difference between duels and world pvp. Say it with me now…

CON-SENT

Duels require consent from both parties. It’s unfortunate that you were bullied out of your last game, but your anger is misplaced. Your issue isn’t with duels. You just ran into some rotten people.

When i get booted from a dungeon cuz i’m playing a thief, do i blame the dungeon? Do i blame the vote kick method? Do i blame the class design that makes guardians/wars preferable to dungeons over thieves?

No. I calls it like i sees it. It’s jerk players acting rude. These players exist in every MMO, with or without duels.

edit— i love how you accuse me of being condescending, yet you are totally cool with the presupposition that if you are in favor of duels you fall into either category:

1. Griefers are apoplectic that Guild Wars 2 is so well designed that they can’t get their jollies from harassing any person they come across.

2. Another group, just as belligerent, is upset because Anet doesn’t provide a way for them to get attention from a captive audience.

No…that’s not offensive at all. I guess since i want duels i must fall into one of those categories. It’s like that blurred line with Batman…does he himself become a villian in the fight against villainy? Are you so determined to squash duel suggestions that you yourself have become the greifer you hate so much?

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Scrambles.2604:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

There’s also this sense of entitlement from the naysayers where you are not allowed to do activities they disapprove of while in their immediate vicinity.

it’s almost like they’re becoming the very thing they claim to be against. OMG that yoda picture was right…this is what fear is doing to them.

Yeah, the knee jerk hatred is really weird. And I have no idea what games these people are playing but I’ve never had a problem with “duel harassment” in my 7 years with WoW. Makes me wonder if these people just sat outside Stormwind or Orgrimmar all day…because if you’re hanging out in those places people are going to assume you’re there to watch or duel.

Honestly had more of a problem in random dungeons then with duels. And I’ve had less issue in wow dungeons than in GW2 dungeons.

i don’t want to blame the victim, but i wonder if it’s just a difference of approach, because my experience is the same as yours’.

I dabbled in DCU for a little bit, and i recall a time where i was sitting on a lvl 1 “avatar aang” toon, and a max lvl dude approaches me and duel requests me. I’m like…“oooook what does this dude expect?”

So i accept and he one hits me and goes “pfft some avatar” and leaves.

The whole experience took maybe 30 seconds, it wasn’t a big deal. It only stands out because i didn’t really play DCU that much. However, i wonder what would’ve happened if i had declined? Would he have left me alone? Would he have persisted to harass me?

Trolls thrive on resistance, and i tend to go with the flow of things. So maybe by nature i tend to deflect those that wish to troll or harass.

Like i said, i don’t want to blame the victim, but usually trolls target those willing to give them any sort of response (especially a negative one). I have seen trolls target people in map chat (in GW2) because that person responded to someone who was obviously fishing for a victim. Myself and others managed to avoid the troll by simply not giving him the response he was looking for.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Scrambles.2604:

the dev’s also said they’d like to add open world duels at some point.

I’m not sure what you’re implying with the yoda picture. I’m not the one doomsaying. There are people here literally saying duels would destroy the game. That is textbook fearmongering. On the contrary, i think there is nothing to fear with the addition of duels to the open world.

Sorry, my feeble attempt to add some humor to what is obviously a serious topic seems to have failed. I’ll delete it.

no worries, dude. I appreciate the attempt to add some levity. I thought you were still trying to debate coach me

Beldin.5498:

And why do you have to duel in the PvE area instead of the PvP Areas ?

There are people here that HATE PvP, and they play this game because here they never have to deal with it if they don’t want.
And i have the strong feeling that you would also never accept a decline and ask again and again : comeon carebear .. duell me .. its fun .. the same way that you can’t simply accept the “no” of people here in the forums.

Because the PvE area is awesome! And mostly unused. The megaservers helped but there is still plenty of vacant space for duels to be enjoyed in.

Why can’t i take no for an answer?? Why do you feel the need to enter a thread suggesting that duels would be a good idea and shut it down?

Why isn’t it enough to just be able to decline a duel request? You decline party invite you don’t want, right? Do you get berrated everytime you decline a party invite too?

I could understand resistance if it was open pvp or nonconsual duels. But the very nature of open world duels requires consent from both parties.

If you want better tools to prevent harassment, advocate for that, but don’t force dueling to be caught in the cross fire. You could literally goto any suggestion and say it will lead to harassment, because trolls don’t need an excuse if they want to harass.

The only way to deal with trolls and let people enjoy the game is to implement proper features to deal with trolls, not limit the features available to players, that’s how the trolls win!!

edit; i just reread you post and caught the personal shot. Despite how i come across on the forums, i’m the nicest person you’ll ever meet in game. I didn’t even duel that much in WoW. I occasionally hung out in front of SW, but most of my duels were with guildies before onyxia and the like.

I’m nice on the forums too but my patience can only go so far when the other party is unreasable and resorts to wild, baseless claims and fearmongering. Oh and now personal shots. Those definitely help your case. Bully the innocent in the name of fighting trolls.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

There’s also this sense of entitlement from the naysayers where you are not allowed to do activities they disapprove of while in their immediate vicinity.

it’s almost like they’re becoming the very thing they claim to be against. OMG that yoda picture was right…this is what fear is doing to them.

Beldin.5498:

sorudo.9054:

i have a question for all the yaysayers, how does it benefit the game in a whole when duels are shuffed in everybody’s face, even if they simply don’t want it to happen around them?
it just baffles me how many excuses i see how much they want duels in the game yet they constantly justify all the trolling and harassment, the thing that will 100% happen 24/7.

The answer on that will maybe also answer the question why duel-spammers don’t accept a “NO” and spam at least 2-3 other duel requests if you decline.

However, i doubt there will ever be a good answer beside : its fun for ME and who the heck cares if its not fun for YOU.

I mentioned in my very post that the game does NOTHING to teach you howto PvP, yet it holds your hand from lvl 1-80, teaching you skills one by one. Dueling would serve as an intermediary for those that want to try PvP without getting overwhelmed or completely wrecked from the get-go.

Why do you guys keep implying that if you want duels you are a selfish, super-competitive, troll that just wants to harass people? Surely your worldview isn’t so tarnished that you believe that majority of the players to be that way?

2/3 of GW2 is based around PvP (PvE, sPvP, WvW), yet there is this ideology on the forums that says the only reason you could like PvP is if you enjoy hurting other players feelings.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Scrambles.2604:

I wont deny that my friends would probably be more agreeable to my position, no doubt. But my friends aren’t in favor of dueling or anti-dueling…because they come from a time where there wasn’t an “anti-dueling.” The games we played just had duels, it went without saying.

That’s why the anti-dueling notion is so baffling to myself and others. My experience has been with MMOs that just had duels as a standard feature, along with auction houses, quests, pvp, etc. If you didn’t like dueling you didn’t do it. Hit decline and move on. For the most part, duelists congregated outside of major cities, so if you wanted to duel you would go there. At the same, you had the freedom to duel other places.

GW2 is the first MMO i’ve played without duels, so it’s the first time i’ve experienced resistance to what i’ve come to know as a staple feature in the genre. The dev’s have indicated that it wasn’t intentionally left out, as in they don’t think it doesn’t belong in the game. But people fight against any suggestions for duels like it doesn’t belong in this game.

“So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2.”

This statement by Mike O’Brien created the impression that whatever beef a player has with MMO’s would be “fixed” in GW2. Throw in dueling not enabled at launch (or since) and bingo.

That, or

the dev’s also said they’d like to add open world duels at some point.

I’m not sure what you’re implying with the yoda picture. I’m not the one doomsaying. There are people here literally saying duels would destroy the game. That is textbook fearmongering. On the contrary, i think there is nothing to fear with the addition of duels to the open world.

Algreg.3629:

Scrambles.2604:

It’s like blaming an ATM because someone robbed you when you were pulling out cash. Should we get rid of ATMs because they attract robbers?

cute, a none sequitur in the wild. ATMs are necessary items and hence make it necessary to accept their inherent risks. Dueling is not.

As for that whole harassment debate: Yes, that is not necessarily a dueling thing. But dueling appeals to personality types that are also fond of harassment.

what makes you say that? There is no dueling in GW2 yet there is still harassment. I’ve experienced more harassment running dungeons in GW2 than in any PvP area of the game.

There is no evidence that duels = more harassment. This is just regurgitated forum hear-say. Even if it “seems” that way, correlation doesn’t equal causation and there are always more variables at play.

Someone mentioned harassment in SWTOR earlier, which is a free to play game. Well, if there are no barriers to entry in the game then there is nothing to prevent someone who lives only to harass people to do just that in the game with little worry about repercussions.

That may not be the reason for harassment, but we have just as much evidence that F2P is source of harassment as we do that duels are a source of harassment…aka no evidence, just conventional wisdom.

Brtiva.9721:

Ravion Hawk.4736:

I watched this enough in other MMOs that allowed dueling in PvE:

Situation 1
Troll tries to duel X
X declines (insert any reason here)
Troll verbally attacks X in chat
More Trolls join in.

Situation 2
Troll tries to duel X
X has auto-decline active
Troll verbally attacks X in chat
More Trolls join in.

Both situations usually escalates to the point that the trolls try to duel everyone on the map and verbally attack anyone that doesn’t duel them.

No Dueling in PvE, go to the Mists and find a 1v1 or start a dueling only server.

This is exactly my experience, the most recent game was swtor ( which actually has no auto decline, and I do not trust anet to implement this well at all, sadly) and is not the only game which gave me this very frequent irritation and harassment. I was sick of being followed by these freaks; my ignore list reached the limit quite fast ( though that still allowed them to follow me and be as annoying and disruptive as possible until I decided to log off or go to another map/world).

It was awesome to have a day without it. It got worse after they had a server merge; at first it was not quite as bad.

I have seen a sizable cadre of players who truly seem to WANT to receive an auto decline or decline, with it’s built-in scenario for trash talking garbage and harrassment.

While there will be players who just want to duel friends and have no desire to harass anyone, there will also be this low life bunch. It is absolutely irresistible to this sort.

I totally do not want to enable it. It has been THE number 1 source of harassment in gaming in my experience, second to none ( on pve servers; pvp servers are full of gank squads of course, it goes with the territory…roll on a pvp server and that is what it is). It would take second place only to the ability to gank the unsuspecting in open world pve.

The design of gw2 has so far been the most harassment free game I have seen. Sorry, but I do not want to add this jerk magnet to open world pve. I have seen what it does, no claims of " it is a fantasy that does not happen" carry any weight with me for I have seen many, many times that it does.

I dislike having to “vote” no to something someone would find fun; I know there are people who would not abuse it. Yet I know what I have seen and in no way want it here. This is now the only game I play so that I can be free of such trash.

Your issue doesn’t sound like it’s with duels, though. It sounds like you just don’t like getting harassed.

If someone is that persistent in harassing you, they aren’t interested in dueling, they are interested in harassing you!! The duel has well come and gone and now you’re left with a persistent troll. This person enjoys trolling, not dueling, or else they would move on to the next duel.

Instead you’ve managed to encounter the type of person that would be harassing you regardless of what area of the game you’re in. But for some reason you choose to blame dueling for this person’s harassment.

It’s like blaming an ATM because someone robbed you when you were pulling out cash. Should we get rid of ATMs because they attract robbers?

IndigoSundown.5419:

Scrambles.2604:

i’m not trying to persuade the person i’m talking to. I’m trying to persuade the reader. There are 10x more views than comments on this thread.

I feel like an outsider would see the same level of absurdity i’m trying to argue against. I tell my MMO vet friends about the anti-duelers in GW2 and they don’t believe me. “why would anyone be against dueling?”

Even in this thread, there is disbelief that resistance against consensual, open world dueling is even a thing.

Would I be correct in assuming that your friends would be in favor of dueling? My point is not about preaching to the choir. There is no benefit to that in terms of increasing the numbers of those in favor. What about the fence sitters? The people who are leery about dueling but not yet decided, who might be alienated by a dismissive position, and convinced by an inclusive one? Those are the ones worth convincing.

I wont deny that my friends would probably be more agreeable to my position, no doubt. But my friends aren’t in favor of dueling or anti-dueling…because they come from a time where there wasn’t an “anti-dueling.” The games we played just had duels, it went without saying.

That’s why the anti-dueling notion is so baffling to myself and others. My experience has been with MMOs that just had duels as a standard feature, along with auction houses, quests, pvp, etc. If you didn’t like dueling you didn’t do it. Hit decline and move on. For the most part, duelists congregated outside of major cities, so if you wanted to duel you would go there. At the same, you had the freedom to duel other places.

GW2 is the first MMO i’ve played without duels, so it’s the first time i’ve experienced resistance to what i’ve come to know as a staple feature in the genre. The dev’s have indicated that it wasn’t intentionally left out, as in they don’t think it doesn’t belong in the game. But people fight against any suggestions for duels like it doesn’t belong in this game.

Audrey.7246:

Scrambles.2604:

I would love to squash the idea that dueling automatically equals harassment. Anytime a good tool/feature is suggested for GW2 people are up in arms about trolls and harassment.

DPS meter – Nope! elitism, bullies, kick from groups, i play how i want, harassment, etc.
Gear inspect – Nope! Elitism, harassment, belittlement, kick from groups, etc.

Yes, harassment may occur around those things, as well as duels. But harassment also occurs everywhere else! All the while, reasonable folk go unnoticed when using these things properly and only the trolls stick out, so i guess only trolls must use those things!

People are up in arms for good reasons with certain tools and features by way of experience with them in other games.

DPS and gear checks split the FFXI community into a small segment of elite players that absolutely would not play with anyone else and a large group of disdained casuals. Due to this (and the uniformly hated iLevel gear progression system), new FFXI players are almost extinct and the game has to resort to login campaigns and introduce many, many solo activities to keep the existing player base.

I’ll bring up Aion again as an example of dueling harassment – it happens in all popular cities in that game and causes all sorts of chat based arguements.

The primary reason for DPS meters and gear checks is to permit segregation of the player base by the players. Dueling can also be misused as a “recruitment” tool for membership application to guilds or dungeon parties – i.e. we will only accept the winner of a duel between two applicants.

Again, what harm is it if methods of implementing dueling can be done in a way where it is transparent to other players? Sure, harassment can be accomplished in many ways for many activities, but why not try to make it more difficult when possible?

I bolded the part i take issue with. You can’t automatically assume these tools are for harassment/segregation.

I used DPS meters for years in WoW for self improvement (i was a healer and Recount has an effective healing meter). I also had friendly DPS contests with the other healers in my guild (because farming MC can only be fun for so long, and sometimes you need to create mini games).

But the issue you described that occurs with WoW and Final Fantasy isn’t about meters, it’s gearscore and content that can only be completed if you have a certain level of stats. GW2 has no gear treadmill so this wouldn’t happen.

I also like the inspect feature because, well i like i looking at other peoples gear. It’s interesting to see how people gear. I wouldn’t ever belittle someone for poor gear choices. Chances are they are still leveling/gearing and don’t have the gear they would prefer yet.

But Noooooo. We can’t have these things because of Elitism and trolls and the tiny ill-willed minority, that exist in a higher frequency as a forum boogie man than an actual in game entity. You only ever hear about the people that abuse the tools, not the countless others that go unnoticed because they use them correctly.

And for your dueling scenario…Why shouldn’t a guild be able to use duels as a method for selecting candidates? It’s their guild let them play how they want.

Finally, duel transparency would probably be harder to program, and it sounds like you can only see the duel if you are participating. Half the fun is just watching people duel. I wont totally knock your idea but it feels like an unnecessary caveat when every other MMO has managed to just have regular open world duels.

Elothar.4382:

Scrambles.2604:

Audrey.7246:

Scrambles.2604:

Without duels, players spam their abilities all the time, everywhere. The bank, crafting, TP….without duels. I really doubt this is a serious issue. In fact, this is about the only place you see costume brawls occur…yet i have seen no complaints about that.

If you can’t be bothered to see other peoples spell effects, even in non-combat areas, you are definitely in the wrong game. No mana cost and no target needed for spell casts encourages useless spell spam more so than any other MMO out there, yet it’s only an issue when duels are mentioned >_>

I’ve read the majority of your posts in this thread and I guess I don’t understand what you are trying to accomplish. You seem to object to any implementation that would place restrictions on the players executing the duels.

Would you use the ability to duel as some sort of public challenge event in or near a populated area such as a popular city such as one-on-one challenge fights for gold, etc.?

Your earlier posts seem to indicate that you wanted PvE dueling so that you could easily use any PvE zone to check out PvE gear and builds with friends. Why would you care if others not involved would be able to view your duel or observe your chat?

I tried to present a solution for what you seemed to want, but from your recent responses there is something else in play that you are not disclosing.

BTW, I have been playing GW2 since launch and I have yet to see a costume brawl. Players do not frequently spam skills around crafting stations or frequently used NPCs either – it has never been an issue. Players do spam skills, shoot fireworks, tell jokes, do emotes, etc. while waiting for world boss events, but all others in the area are there for the same reason and no one is harassed or annoyed.

The biggest issue with dueling is the resultant zone wide (or nearby) channel chat that it inevitably causes. It is as welcome as the Queensdale champion train trash talk when someone decides to try a champion outside the train.

I would love to squash the idea that dueling automatically equals harassment. Anytime a good tool/feature is suggested for GW2 people are up in arms about trolls and harassment.

DPS meter – Nope! elitism, bullies, kick from groups, i play how i want, harassment, etc.
Gear inspect – Nope! Elitism, harassment, belittlement, kick from groups, etc.

Yes, harassment may occur around those things, as well as duels. But harassment also occurs everywhere else! All the while, reasonable folk go unnoticed when using these things properly and only the trolls stick out, so i guess only trolls must use those things!

It really is not about whether “everyone” harasses or not. It only takes a minority of adolescent jerks to adversely affect the gameplay experience. I don’t mean to seem confrontational but, truly, this is not hypothetical and I am not just making it up. I do not like dueling and have had to tolerate a lot of crap over the years from what is an admittedly minority of the dueling population. That it is a minority doesn’t make the experience any less crappy.

And…just to answer a previous denigrating post…I am not afraid of “having my feelings hurt.” It is just an annoyance that I can do without. Is it a “deal breaker” for me? No, of course not. I am not going to rage quit if they introduce dueling. I generally am not in favor of it since my past experiences have not been that pleasant. I see it as something I will have to “tolerate” that brings absolutely nothing to the game for me. In other words, in terms of the quality of my experience, it is a net loss. Does that make me selfish? Sure it does…just like those who want dueling are being selfish as well. We all want what we want and those who disagree with us are being selfish.

Sadly…and I am sincere in that…this is not likely to be an issue where we will all come to some grand consensus. I suspect it will be one of those issues that…one side will be happy and the other side will be unhappy…as happens with a fair number of issues in any game.

Just decline the duel. It’s really that simple. Most players will leave you alone if you decline.

If a player persists aggressively after you decline a duel, then it’s not dueling anymore it’s harassment.

Audrey.7246:

Scrambles.2604:

Without duels, players spam their abilities all the time, everywhere. The bank, crafting, TP….without duels. I really doubt this is a serious issue. In fact, this is about the only place you see costume brawls occur…yet i have seen no complaints about that.

If you can’t be bothered to see other peoples spell effects, even in non-combat areas, you are definitely in the wrong game. No mana cost and no target needed for spell casts encourages useless spell spam more so than any other MMO out there, yet it’s only an issue when duels are mentioned >_>

I’ve read the majority of your posts in this thread and I guess I don’t understand what you are trying to accomplish. You seem to object to any implementation that would place restrictions on the players executing the duels.

Would you use the ability to duel as some sort of public challenge event in or near a populated area such as a popular city such as one-on-one challenge fights for gold, etc.?

Your earlier posts seem to indicate that you wanted PvE dueling so that you could easily use any PvE zone to check out PvE gear and builds with friends. Why would you care if others not involved would be able to view your duel or observe your chat?

I tried to present a solution for what you seemed to want, but from your recent responses there is something else in play that you are not disclosing.

BTW, I have been playing GW2 since launch and I have yet to see a costume brawl. Players do not frequently spam skills around crafting stations or frequently used NPCs either – it has never been an issue. Players do spam skills, shoot fireworks, tell jokes, do emotes, etc. while waiting for world boss events, but all others in the area are there for the same reason and no one is harassed or annoyed.

The biggest issue with dueling is the resultant zone wide (or nearby) channel chat that it inevitably causes. It is as welcome as the Queensdale champion train trash talk when someone decides to try a champion outside the train.

I would love to squash the idea that dueling automatically equals harassment. Anytime a good tool/feature is suggested for GW2 people are up in arms about trolls and harassment.

DPS meter – Nope! elitism, bullies, kick from groups, i play how i want, harassment, etc.
Gear inspect – Nope! Elitism, harassment, belittlement, kick from groups, etc.

Yes, harassment may occur around those things, as well as duels. But harassment also occurs everywhere else! All the while, reasonable folk go unnoticed when using these things properly and only the trolls stick out, so i guess only trolls must use those things!

IndigoSundown.5419:

Scrambles.2604:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Scrambles.2604:

Don’t take my dismissal of the hypothetical “12 year old persistent troll” as a lack of understanding of human nature, it’s an acknowledgment of how overblown the frequency of those situations occurring have been stated on the forums. Just because there is potential for abuse doesn’t make it common place. Just because it happened once doesn’t mean it will happen all the time. We have all met that person but not with such a recurring frequency that it drives us away from the game.

Still, you missed my point. The dismissive stance is going to generate resistance, whereas an inclusive stance might not. That’s the human nature I was referring to.

i reread your initial post and i get what you are saying. I just can’t tolerate the arguments grounded in hyperbole. If their argument already resorts to fearmongering i will not expect to win them over with words and reason because they operate with emotions.

You think duels shouldn’t be in the open world because two additional people might effect event scaling? Not that big an issue, but that is a real issue, i will give the argument some merit.

But you think duels shouldn’t be in the open world because of this hypothetical troll that may follow you around and berate you until you log off for not dueling? No, that is not a real argument. It is an unfounded fantasy situation that doesn’t happen in the real world (of GW2) with enough frequency for it to be a significant concern.

Even more so, this hypothetical falls under the purvue of “harrassment,” not duels. If the duel troll tirelessly tries to prove his merit to you, he is harassing you, not dueling you.

I will consider a concern that has to do with dueling but when it falls into harassment that is a whole different issue.

While refraining from dismissive argument will not sway those with extreme positions, using such arguments will not sway them, either. At this juncture, I doubt that there are any real neutral positions left that argument might sway. However, if you resort to a dismissive argument, you risk alienating players with moderate positions.

I see no value to dismissing concerns about harassment. If there are really so few instances of duel-related harassment in other games, the developers will know this or can find this out. If they don’t know, and aren’t willing to research, then your argument is unlikely to convince them.

While I have seen much less harassment of any kind in GW2 than in some other games, I have seen claims of it on the forums, most notably event farm trollers;
CTrain trollers; farmers and CTrainers; and dueling arena trollers. Thus, we know there are people who will harass. Will they use dueling to do so? Perhaps, to the extent the mechanics allow.

All it takes is two experiences with dueling-related harassment for someone to invalidate for themselves your argument that the concern is hypothetical. My own experiences have been sporadic, but there have been considerably more than two. Despite that, I’m not against dueling with appropriate controls to make griefing via dueling harder.

I do, however, think you will be a more persuasive spokesperson for your position if you refrain from the dismissive argument and focus more on the inclusive one. Regardless, carry on and good luck.

i’m not trying to persuade the person i’m talking to. I’m trying to persuade the reader. There are 10x more views than comments on this thread.

I feel like an outsider would see the same level of absurdity i’m trying to argue against. I tell my MMO vet friends about the anti-duelers in GW2 and they don’t believe me. “why would anyone be against dueling?”

Even in this thread, there is disbelief that resistance against consensual, open world dueling is even a thing.

Audrey.7246:

Sartharina.3542:

With my experience, I’d rather not have duels be isolated from the rest of the game. Trash talking and abuse are trash talking and abuse. Ignore works, as does reporting troublesome players (If that’s an option). People taking duels seriously is also a problem, but it’s hard to properly implement a more open approach to intercharacter aggression that doesn’t allow griefing.

In my experience while playing other games, ignore only helps with player to player verbal abuse and it does not prevent the initial unwanted communication. It also does nothing to eliminate the constant barrage of zone wide trash talk in populated zones such as cities (Aion is notorious for this).

Players dueling around crafting stations, NPCs, events, etc. are annoying and unwelcome. Again, if a way can be found to permit consenting dueling using PvE zones without affecting players there for other activities, I have no objections.

Without duels, players spam their abilities all the time, everywhere. The bank, crafting, TP….without duels. I really doubt this is a serious issue. In fact, this is about the only place you see costume brawls occur…yet i have seen no complaints about that.

If you can’t be bothered to see other peoples spell effects, even in non-combat areas, you are definitely in the wrong game. No mana cost and no target needed for spell casts encourages useless spell spam more so than any other MMO out there, yet it’s only an issue when duels are mentioned >_>

Civilis.2547:

I think PvE dueling is significantly harder technically. Approach the problem from the point “If I were trying to abuse a PvE dueling system, how would I do it?” (Absent creating a new micro-instance for the duel, which raises its own separate set of issues.)

You have to create a new system for addressing each of the following: other players and their status effects, environmental weapons and status effects, the effects of all the bundles the players may be carrying which cannot be currently used in WvW, the monsters and their status effects, zone level scaling, and the event and event scaling.

What happens when two players start dueling during Tequatl? What would happen if most or all the players paired off and dueled during an event? If your duel ignores monsters and their effects, could you stage a running duel between two characters with low damage and get to a hard-to-acquire WP, POI, Puzzle or Mini-dungeon risk-free? What happens when the fight crosses a scaling boundry? These questions took me a few minutes to come up with; everyone that wants to grief duels would be coming up with better ones as quickly as they can.

WvW PvP works because everyone is scaled to Lv 80 constantly and consistently and nobody (Player or NPC) is friendly to both sides in the fight.

(Ironically, I read Audrey’s post above while finalizing my own; she’s been thinking along similar lines; the question her idea raises is: how does the scaling change when a duel or duels begin? You have a massively scaled event and suddenly everyone phases out of the fight; or, you’re about to lose to a boss that has an on-failure attack, like Tequatl or Megadestroyer (or, better yet, the Marionette), can you cheat death? The Marionette fight mechanics + duels causes all kinds of wonky issues.).

i know nothing about the technical aspect, but every MMO on the market has managed to achieve this so i don’t think it’s too far fetched. Anet has never really been shy about admitting technical limitations (bleed caps/AoE caps), so if that was the main reason i think we would’ve heard it by now.

That said, in every other game with duels, you fight to 1 health and the whole time you can be hit by mobs. This creates incentive to fight away from mobs, because you are vulnerable to just about anything at 1 hp.

Otherwise, i mentioned event scaling earlier and so did you so i will address that as well. If two additional people scale and event and the event is failed, it was probably failed from the get go. If this is a big issue then i would imagine there would be more effort to removing AFKs from events, who also effects event scaling.

Also, costume brawls function similar to what you would expect from duels and those are fine. After reading all the posts about harassment, i’m still waiting to get bullied into a costume brawl…haha oh wait that doesn’t happen :P

IndigoSundown.5419:

Scrambles.2604:

Don’t take my dismissal of the hypothetical “12 year old persistent troll” as a lack of understanding of human nature, it’s an acknowledgment of how overblown the frequency of those situations occurring have been stated on the forums. Just because there is potential for abuse doesn’t make it common place. Just because it happened once doesn’t mean it will happen all the time. We have all met that person but not with such a recurring frequency that it drives us away from the game.

Still, you missed my point. The dismissive stance is going to generate resistance, whereas an inclusive stance might not. That’s the human nature I was referring to.

i reread your initial post and i get what you are saying. I just can’t tolerate the arguments grounded in hyperbole. If their argument already resorts to fearmongering i will not expect to win them over with words and reason because they operate with emotions.

You think duels shouldn’t be in the open world because two additional people might effect event scaling? Not that big an issue, but that is a real issue, i will give the argument some merit.

But you think duels shouldn’t be in the open world because of this hypothetical troll that may follow you around and berate you until you log off for not dueling? No, that is not a real argument. It is an unfounded fantasy situation that doesn’t happen in the real world (of GW2) with enough frequency for it to be a significant concern.

Even more so, this hypothetical falls under the purvue of “harrassment,” not duels. If the duel troll tirelessly tries to prove his merit to you, he is harassing you, not dueling you.

I will consider a concern that has to do with dueling but when it falls into harassment that is a whole different issue.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

This game isn’t about fun though. Just look at how these people fight against fun features just because they are in another game they hate or because they might be momentarily inconvienced by a duel request or by having to tick a decline box.

hahaha. Yeah, how much gold/hr do you get from dueling? eh? filthy casual!

Sartharina.3542:

I’d rather see bar brawls be implemented before dueling. That said… what are the complaints against open-world opt-in PvP? As primarily a roleplayer, I’d love to be able to actually take swords against people who tick me off in-game (And probably get my kitten handed to me as a result… but it’s better than just puffing up and strutting around powerlessly)

The principle complaint is that players might be rude to other players.

Ravion Hawk.4736:

I watched this enough in other MMOs that allowed dueling in PvE:

Situation 1
Troll tries to duel X
X declines (insert any reason here)
Troll verbally attacks X in chat
More Trolls join in.

Situation 2
Troll tries to duel X
X has auto-decline active
Troll verbally attacks X in chat
More Trolls join in.

Both situations usually escalates to the point that the trolls try to duel everyone on the map and verbally attack anyone that doesn’t duel them.

No Dueling in PvE, go to the Mists and find a 1v1 or start a dueling only server.

What you just described is harassment. This can happen any where and be about anything or nothing. You are just blaming duels for these trolls behavior.

And the situation you described is so vague i have a hard time believing it really happened.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Scrambles.2604:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Hey, not sure if this has been said but…you don’t have to go through two loading screens to do a duel. Let’s say you’re super busy in Queensdale doing really important stuff and don’t have time to go through two loading screens? No problem! Just click the crossed swords at the top of your screen, then select the PvP server list from that menu, and double-click on an empty one.

Bam, you’re there! Your friend can right-click your name from the contact menu and choose “join friend in PvP.”

When you’re done, you will have to go through two loading screens to get back to queensdale, it’s true. But don’t let that discourage you.

I tried to introduce my friend to GW2. He has a new lvl 5 guardian and wanted to test some PvP. So we head to the mysts. Let me tell you, it is frustrating trying to explain to a brand new player that he needs to go here to get weapons, here to get runes, what runes are, what sigils are, etc.

In any other MMO I couldve just dueled his lvl 5 guardian there where he was questing, where he could use the skills he had just learned and was familiar with. This game lacks any introduction to PvP and open world duels would fill that gap.

More good news! PvP builds have been changed so that you no longer have to visit all the different vendors in the Heart of the Mists to set up your PvP build. The top of your screen now has a “PvP build” option visible when you are in a PvP map or the HotM. Just click it open and choose any gear/trait combinations you want from dropdown menus.

Even better, you will automatically be using the same weapon sets you have equipped in PvE. No more totally-foreign build to worry about once you step into the HotM—if your level 5 friend was using a hammer in PvE, he’ll be using a hammer in PvP. Better yet, his stats and traits will be boosted to level 80 so that you don’t kill him in two hits like you would if you dueled his level 5 character.

Although probably your friend would be better off to level a bit more before doing PvP. It doesn’t really matter whether he has to buy runes/sigils/etc from a vendor or not if he has no idea what any of those things are.

Good to know! I’m glad sPvP is more accessible now…I mostly stick with WvW.

IF we could open world duel, i imagine we both would be lvl 5 (or whatever the zone downlevels me to) so i don’t think i’d beat him too bad. He is a guardian, after all

oh man where to start. I’ll speak generally so i don’t have to reply individually.

I don’t see why open world duels can’t succeed in GW2 when they work fantastically in every MMO on the market. The only thing different about GW2 is that they didn’t have time to implement it, not that they didn’t want to or didn’t think it would work.

What is so different about GW2? There is still plenty of trollery to go around…without duels! Duels wouldn’t be upsetting a pristine, untouched haven of anti-toxicity. We get by with the tools we have now to avoid harassment, so will those suddenly disappear with the implementation of duels?

Then there’s this stereotype of the “duel griefer.” Maybe, just maybe, the majority of people that use duels properly go unnoticed, because they use them properly! Instead you’re focused on the loud minority of trolls and are willing to let those guys dictate what tools are implemented.

Don’t take my dismissal of the hypothetical “12 year old persistent troll” as a lack of understanding of human nature, it’s an acknowledgment of how overblown the frequency of those situations occurring have been stated on the forums. Just because there is potential for abuse doesn’t make it common place. Just because it happened once doesn’t mean it will happen all the time. We have all met that person but not with such a recurring frequency that it drives us away from the game.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

Lanfear, i’m not trying to be rude so no need to get all snippy. We’re all still friends here chatting on the forums instead of working >_>

I agree the block/report features probably needs work. I haven’t really blocked many people besides gold sellers so i don’t have a lot of personal experience with this issue. You seem to be a magnet for trolls or something. I tend to keep to myself and my guild and rarely post in map chat outside of WvW.

Regardless, your concerns are once again about something that is not duels so i am trying my best to keep this train on it’s rails.

I wasn’t being snippy, but I can be if you’d like.

OK fine, my concerns have nothing to do with duels. They aren’t related in any way. You heard him folks. Our concerns aren’t related, they aren’t valid. Don’t warrant discussion or consideration as they aren’t related to the topic. Just like every other time this has come, we don’t agree so we don’t matter.

/vote no on open world duels

Cmon Lanfear, don’t be like that. Your concerns have been heard and beaten into the ground along with this zombie horse thread. I have been advocating for open world duels that include:

Auto-decline option (on by default. or off, your choice)
Duel request cooldown – can only request duel certain amount of times before locked out of duel with that person for a period of time to reduce spam.

Both of these tools would go along way to prevent what you fear so vehemently. Otherwise, if the ignore/block/report features got fixed, all of your concerns may be a thing of the past.

You seem to be still playing this game despite the toxicity we occasionally see in every area of the game, and i feel strongly that adding open world duels wont change anything.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

But we say no to this feature? Because, despite tools put in place to prevent harassment, a potential for abuse still exists? I don’t think that is a good enough reason to warrant no duels at all.

I did say two posts back, that if they addressed the issues with the block and report features, along with some other concerns, then fine. As in, ok put them in. Or did you miss that?

Yes, harassment happens across all parts of the game. I was trying to limit the discussion of it as it pertained to this topic.

Lanfear, i’m not trying to be rude so no need to get all snippy. We’re all still friends here chatting on the forums instead of working >_>

I agree the block/report features probably needs work. I haven’t really blocked many people besides gold sellers so i don’t have a lot of personal experience with this issue. You seem to be a magnet for trolls or something. I tend to keep to myself and my guild and rarely post in map chat outside of WvW.

Regardless, your concerns are once again about something that is not duels so i am trying my best to keep this train on it’s rails.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Hey, not sure if this has been said but…you don’t have to go through two loading screens to do a duel. Let’s say you’re super busy in Queensdale doing really important stuff and don’t have time to go through two loading screens? No problem! Just click the crossed swords at the top of your screen, then select the PvP server list from that menu, and double-click on an empty one.

Bam, you’re there! Your friend can right-click your name from the contact menu and choose “join friend in PvP.”

When you’re done, you will have to go through two loading screens to get back to queensdale, it’s true. But don’t let that discourage you.

I tried to introduce my friend to GW2. He has a new lvl 5 guardian and wanted to test some PvP. So we head to the mysts. Let me tell you, it is frustrating trying to explain to a brand new player that he needs to go here to get weapons, here to get runes, what runes are, what sigils are, etc.

In any other MMO I couldve just dueled his lvl 5 guardian there where he was questing, where he could use the skills he had just learned and was familiar with. This game lacks any introduction to PvP and open world duels would fill that gap.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

i’m not trying to trivialize it. I know it sucks, but we both agreed that sort of thing can be expected as a result of dealing with real people. It sucks but i don’t have any sympathy because we have all dealt with it at some point. It is an inevitable consequence in every MMO.

Me, i just roll with the punches. Someone way out of my league wants to duel? Ok i’ll duel them, get stomped and move on. Let them get it out of their system. Trolls want you to try to avoid them, they want to see your displeasure.

More importantly, don’t focus on how jerk players will abuse new game features. Focus on how good players can benefit. The majority of players are well meaning, but the worst ones stick out. The majority of players will use duels properly and respectfully.

You will only remember the ones that abuse it…When youve done everything right, people wont be sure you’ve done anything at all.

But you are trivialzing it, and that’s a problem.

Yes, there is always going to be some kittens. Some level of annoyance, and for a lack of a better word, an ‘acceptable’ level of this crap. However, with the current systems available for blocking and reporting, there isn’t good way to handle the more severe cases of harassment.

Now, should that get adjusted / fixed and they address concerns with the various types of griefing (ie, standing on an npc that people need to talk to, etc), then fine. However, I’m not going to hold my breath.

I’m sorry you are being harassed but this is a discussion about dueling and you continue to talk about issues that are not duel related. Maybe that is why it seems like i am trivializing your issues, but i am focused on the subject.

And so am I, but you’re simply dismissing it, when the harassment being discussed comes from the dueling community. Not all, obviously, but enough that a multitude of people across numerous threads have voiced concerns.

You’re saying that harassment doesn’t come from dueling, when I and many others have given multitudes of examples where it is / has. I’m pretty sure people are tired of voicing valid concerns, to simply be told by people like you to simply ‘toughen up.’

Harassment comes from jerk players. It can happen anywhere…i mean the example you gave didn’t even have anything to do with dueling.

You are bound to run into rude players in MMOs, that is a given. You deal with it or you uninstall, that’s really your only options after you’ve exhausted ignore/report, etc.

My argument is that you shouldn’t let the behaviors of the loud minority of rude players determine what features should be available to players.

What if Anet wanted to add voice chat? That would be crucial for WvW players, that are forced to use TS servers. Do we say no because that would give harassers another avenue to troll people? Despite the majority of players that will use it properly?

It’s the same with duels. Many people would benefit greatly from the addition of open world duels, and i think it would also bring players back into the game and generate additional, sustained revenue for Anet over time.

But we say no to this feature? Because, despite tools put in place to prevent harassment, a potential for abuse still exists? I don’t think that is a good enough reason to warrant no duels at all.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

i’m not trying to trivialize it. I know it sucks, but we both agreed that sort of thing can be expected as a result of dealing with real people. It sucks but i don’t have any sympathy because we have all dealt with it at some point. It is an inevitable consequence in every MMO.

Me, i just roll with the punches. Someone way out of my league wants to duel? Ok i’ll duel them, get stomped and move on. Let them get it out of their system. Trolls want you to try to avoid them, they want to see your displeasure.

More importantly, don’t focus on how jerk players will abuse new game features. Focus on how good players can benefit. The majority of players are well meaning, but the worst ones stick out. The majority of players will use duels properly and respectfully.

You will only remember the ones that abuse it…When youve done everything right, people wont be sure you’ve done anything at all.

But you are trivialzing it, and that’s a problem.

Yes, there is always going to be some kittens. Some level of annoyance, and for a lack of a better word, an ‘acceptable’ level of this crap. However, with the current systems available for blocking and reporting, there isn’t good way to handle the more severe cases of harassment.

Now, should that get adjusted / fixed and they address concerns with the various types of griefing (ie, standing on an npc that people need to talk to, etc), then fine. However, I’m not going to hold my breath.

I’m sorry you are being harassed but this is a discussion about dueling and you continue to talk about issues that are not duel related. Maybe that is why it seems like i am trivializing your issues, but i am focused on the subject.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

So, to make sure we’re on the same page.. You don’t want open world duels because one time in WoW a max level player harassed you and killed all the mobs before you could?

Maybe there’s more to it, or more scenarios…but your reasoning is starting to get a little outlandish (get it? outlands? aaahh whatever… WoW joke.).

I prefer not to have open world duels due to the mentality they seem to foster and because in the spirit of GW1, I believe pvp belongs in the mists. Separate from pve.

Its ok that you feel the need to trivialize harassment because it’s ‘just a game.’ It doesn’t matter if this happened once, or a hundred times. Because it’s ‘teh internetz’ its apparently ok. Its not like we carry any of this mentality out into the real world with us after all. After all if its ok to bully someone on a video game, how is that any different than Facebook? Its just the internet, no one gets hurt….. until someone commits suicide, or someone steals a gun a shoots someone else in the back. Its the internet, its perfectly ok.

i’m not trying to trivialize it. I know it sucks, but we both agreed that sort of thing can be expected as a result of dealing with real people. It sucks but i don’t have any sympathy because we have all dealt with it at some point. It is an inevitable consequence in every MMO.

Me, i just roll with the punches. Someone way out of my league wants to duel? Ok i’ll duel them, get stomped and move on. Let them get it out of their system. Trolls want you to try to avoid them, they want to see your displeasure.

More importantly, don’t focus on how jerk players will abuse new game features. Focus on how good players can benefit. The majority of players are well meaning, but the worst ones stick out. The majority of players will use duels properly and respectfully.

You will only remember the ones that abuse it…When youve done everything right, people wont be sure you’ve done anything at all.

Beldin.5498:

Scrambles.2604:

Beldin.5498:

Scrambles.2604:

Yeah, the interface is a big one i forgot. I’m sure the inflexible and obstructive UI as well as the targeting have driven people away. That’s the only thing i miss from WoW is the “blizzard polish.” Say what you want about blizzard games, but you would have a hard time arguing they are not the most polished games out there.

I just tried WoW once for a day .. and the UI from WoW was one of the worst i ever saw.
Especially have i never seen a map before that was soo inaccurate. Run to point on map and you land 500 feet away from where you really should have gone.

well lucky for you, WoW UI is probably the most customizable out there, so you could make it look just like the GW2 one if you wanted. I don’t think you are looking for advice, just things to complain about.

It may be customizable, but thats just work from people who don’t work for Blizzard, and the standard UI is still garbage. And i also installed some Map Addons, and the map was still not leading me really to where i wanted to go.

And why the hell should i look for advice here about the greatness of the WoW UI ?

EQ2 Ui was much better even if it was visual not so great. RIFT and AION had maybe UIs that looked good and had also quite good functionality without using any addons.

GOING OFF THE RAILS ON A CRAZY TRAIN!!

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

Cmon, dawg. Correlation =/= Causation.

You probably get more harrassment in WoW because there is such a larger player base. More players = more chances to be harassed. WoW also has a free trial, so its not unreasonable to run into low lvls that are there solely to harass you.

There is a reason why stereotypes exist. They aren’t always 100% accurate from case to case, but they are rooted in commonality.

In the few scenarios I’ve mentioned, it wasn’t low level players doing the griefing. The death knight was a max level (which was 80 at the time, pre-MoP), my priest wasn’t even a 10… (I was just trying to get her high enough to do AB!)

More low levels does not necessarily mean more harassment. Just as having a free trial period doesn’t necessarily mean more harassment. True, more people does make it more likely… but that doesn’t mean it’s going to come from the lower levels.

So, to make sure we’re on the same page.. You don’t want open world duels because one time in WoW a max level player harassed you and killed all the mobs before you could?

Maybe there’s more to it, or more scenarios…but your reasoning is starting to get a little outlandish (get it? outlands? aaahh whatever… WoW joke.).

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

Lanafear, you continue to describe what most would call “harassment” but you attribute it to dueling. I won’t argue harassment is an ongoing issue, but i don’t think your issue is truly with open world duels.

Your anger for being harassed (not unwarranted) is being misattributed to dueling.

I get that it’s harassment. I know that. What I’ve been trying to point out is that it tends to be more prevalent with certain types of game modes.

I admit that I have not played a lot of MMOs. However, when you start to see a trend among certain types of games modes, you start to associate the 2.

Cmon, dawg. Correlation =/= Causation.

You probably get more harrassment in WoW because there is such a larger player base. More players = more chances to be harassed. WoW also has a free trial, so its not unreasonable to run into low lvls that are there solely to harass you.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Oh really? That’s never happened to me after years of playing because I have auto-decline option set and I promptly blocked the one person during that time who couldn’t take no for answer. All in all, problem solved in 30 seconds.

Yes, really. Perhaps it’s just that server I guess? Since so many of you seem to believe this never happens. Although, I had it happen to me on the other server too, was trying to level my human priest and the stupid death knight just would not leave me the hell alone. He killed everything in Elwynn Forest around me so I couldn’t do my kitten quests. Super frustrating.

While we don’t have issues with kill stealing or node stealing in GW2, we do have an issue with the block feature not working the best. Even though we can block someone, they can still see when we are online. Can still see what map we are on. It also doesn’t block emotes. Some people are enough of an kitten that they would hunt you down and spam emotes at you (though you can turn them off, that still doesn’t make them go away). I’ve also seen children recruit their friends to harrass someone after they themself have been blocked. Reporting them doesn’t make them leave either, nothing happens until it gets reviewed. So perhaps the person should just have to log off until something is done? That’s fair right?

I’ve seen these first hand, from both sides, actually. I had a guildie in WoW that acted like this, I booted his sorry kitten very quickly. And guess what, he plays GW2. How do I know, he messaged me… and he has me on follow…and he uses the same game name.

Perhaps for some, these are ‘worst case’ scenarios. For some, it’s just rotten luck. Don’t necessarily discount something as ‘blown out of proportion’ just because it didn’t happen to you, or you didn’t see it with your own eyes.

Lanfear, you continue to describe what most would call “harassment” but you attribute it to dueling. I won’t argue harassment is an ongoing issue, but i don’t think your issue is truly with open world duels.

Your anger for being harassed (not unwarranted) is being misattributed to dueling.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

It’s not about seeing the good in people. I will acknowledge that games with duels have people that use it to harass. They also don’t have auto-decline. GW2 doesn’t have duels yet we still see tons of harassment.

The ways i have advocated for duels to be introduced would make it so you wouldn’t be harassed in game any more than you normally are.

Instead, i have to deal with fear mongering and hyperbole and the idea that someone will pick you out, for no reason, and follow you around until you duel. Can it happen? Sure. Will it happen? No, not outside of the fantasy scenarios described in these threads.

The issue here is that I don’t have faith in it being implemented in such a way. Keep in mind that they built features into the lfg tool to keep people from griefing there too and it only works to a point.

As for the ‘fantasy’ scenario you mentioned, I had that happen to me in WoW several times actually. Norgannon was my main server (a pve server, dueling is off by default), I forget what the other server was that I played on. It’s been a while. It’s not as uncommon as some people like to think. Some people really are just kittens…

But we’ve both agreed we live in a pessimistic, dystopian MMO environment, littered with trolls and miscreants…with or without dueling. Yet we continue to play. Maybe our will is strong enough that we can continue to live and play as we do, despite the occasional jerk encounter.

Do i quit and uninstall every time i get booted from a dungeon cuz i chose to play my thief? No not at all. Because i acknowledge that this is the world we live in. I mean, did you quit WoW solely because of that one time a troll wanted to duel you a little too much?

Annoying /== Game breaking. Dueling with not break the game.

sternenstaub.8763:

Bolthar.7192:

I would still like to see this. I know there are dueling servers but I don’t think they quite fulfill the need (is it just me?).

Dueling is necessary for players to have a fair 1v1 battle with their friends without the inevitable 1v1 battle turns into a 3v1 battle ending in rage and exasperation. This also helps a player learn to fight specific classes and hone their skills in a fair environment.

PvE dueling is necessary because players shouldn’t have to go through 2 loading screens and a possible queue to duel with a friend real fast in the mists, then take another 2 loading screens to get back to PvE followed by a waypoint to get close to where they were adventuring before when they decided to have a quick duel.

I feel this feature would be really nice and possibly even introduce PvE players to PvP in a more fun and less frustrating way… among friends and not probably angry strangers.

I do not say your arguments are wrong; just the second dueling is released is the second people scream for 1v1 balance, is the second sPvP balance goes completely out the window.

yeah, because no one ever complains about 1v1 balance. People already 1v1 through the roud-about of custom spvp method and sPvP balance has yet to be defenstrated.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

If dueling is released tomorrow with auto-decline duels enabled as a default, there is NO change to the game. If each person that wants to duel elects to disable that option, people that want to duel would seek out others that want to duel, not people that have made the conscious decision to leave auto-decline on.

Open world dueling will not ruin the game! We already tolerate the loudest players in map chat, even more so with mega servers now. We continue to run dungeons, despite those who kick us for not being a guardian/war.

A consequence of playing an MMO is you have to deal with other people, the best and the worst, even if that means they have the freedom to scream their heads off and jump around constantly and spam skills.

In a perfect world, no this wouldn’t ruin the game. We don’t live in a perfect world, and there is no guarantee that it won’t make the game less hospitable. It has already been shown that when given a tool with the potential to grief, people will use it to grief.

I understand that when playing a MMO that you have to deal with people. I have no issue with that. However you will have to forgive me for not ‘seeing the good’ in people, when it seems that humanity’s base nature is not to be ‘good.’

It’s not about seeing the good in people. I will acknowledge that games with duels have people that use it to harass. They also don’t have auto-decline. GW2 doesn’t have duels yet we still see tons of harassment.

The ways i have advocated for duels to be introduced would make it so you wouldn’t be harassed in game any more than you normally are.

Instead, i have to deal with fear mongering and hyperbole and the idea that someone will pick you out, for no reason, and follow you around until you duel. Can it happen? Sure. Will it happen? No, not outside of the fantasy scenarios described in these threads.

Beldin.5498:

Scrambles.2604:

Yeah, the interface is a big one i forgot. I’m sure the inflexible and obstructive UI as well as the targeting have driven people away. That’s the only thing i miss from WoW is the “blizzard polish.” Say what you want about blizzard games, but you would have a hard time arguing they are not the most polished games out there.

I just tried WoW once for a day .. and the UI from WoW was one of the worst i ever saw.
Especially have i never seen a map before that was soo inaccurate. Run to point on map and you land 500 feet away from where you really should have gone.

well lucky for you, WoW UI is probably the most customizable out there, so you could make it look just like the GW2 one if you wanted. I don’t think you are looking for advice, just things to complain about.

Maxite.6102:

Because duel spam isn’t annoying in other games at all, and people totally won’t use it as some childish attempt at peening.

A consequence of playing a MMO is also not having the game tailored to suit whatever wild fantasy you have because you cannot be bothered to open a menu, and go to different area.

It’s not just me, or those that advocate open world dueling. Even the dev’s think custom spvp dueling is an “awkward round-about.” I posted a video where Colin Johanson says those exact words.

Even the dev’s “can’t be bothered to open a menu, and go to a different area.”

If you read any of the suggestions, they all include an auto-decline feature. And i’ve long advocated for a “duel request cooldown,” to prevent spam.

However, those against open dueling won’t hear suggestions, they just want everyone to play their way.

Beldin.5498:

Scrambles.2604:

Beldin.5498:

Scrambles.2604:

The “bringing people back” aspect plays on the idea that people bought GW2 but don’t play it because it lacks what you would typically expect from a MMO—duels, endgame, raids, etc.

The lack of those things is just exactly WHY i prefer GW2 over all those other MMOs.
And i don’t want GW2 to turn into just another WoW / AION whatever clone. There are already too much of those games out there, and not enough that are different, so for me, people that want raids should go to WoW/Rift/EQ/AoC whatever else. Those that want Open World ganking could play AION or any other korean game.

What have those players brought good to the game ? That ANet introduced ascended gear and kittened of masses of players, and in the end i believe those people still left the game.

You surely don’t play GW2 because of the lack of features. Do you enjoy not being able to sort the TP based on light/med/heavy gear? Do you enjoy being booted out of a dungeon when the leader leaves? Do you enjoy either playing in a 5 man group or a zerg with no in between? Do you enjoy that more than a year after launch WvW commanders still have no ability to command beyond having a viewable tag.

I could go on. There is a lot of polish left out of this game. For every one thing i like about this game there is also something i dislike. I realize dueling doesn’t qualify as a QoL feature for everyone, but in 2014 it is pretty much expected of MMOs that aren’t released undercooked.

I hate beeing forced to run dungeons / raids that i dislike, just to get better gear, thats the reason, and i don’t want to have raids here that after a while nobody does as long as they don’t get better gear, and then we get finally the usual dungeon / raid gear treadmill.

And adding duels and raids to the game surely doesn’t give us a better interface. And yes i would of course like to have a better interface, like maybe in EQ2 and i would see also alot of other stuff from EQ2 .. but only minus all the raiding crap.

Yeah, the interface is a big one i forgot. I’m sure the inflexible and obstructive UI as well as the targeting have driven people away. That’s the only thing i miss from WoW is the “blizzard polish.” Say what you want about blizzard games, but you would have a hard time arguing they are not the most polished games out there.

Astralporing.1957:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

LOL dueling can be implemented in such a way that it will have zero impact on people who will never want to duel.

It already is. It’s called “custom arenas”. But, you have to be willing to use the tools given to you.

The only people that suggest this have never actually tried it. Dueling is supposed to be easy and accessible. Nothing about custom sPvP is easy or accessible. I spent 15 minutes with my friend just trying to locate the same open sPvP game to 1v1. This is after 1 loading screen and before another.

Maybe if i had 200g i could buy a custom server but that is prohibitively expensive.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

Lanfear, you’re cool and all but i wont argue with you point by point—that is tedious. I will continue to exchange ideas with you.

Honestly, i think we are both on the same page beyond tiny caveats and semantic arugments, we just value PvP and dueling differently. That is why open world dueling would require a “decline” button, and better yet, and auto-decline option.

I just don’t see how the ability to not be forced to duel isn’t a fair compromise for those not interested in PvP/dueling.

I don’t think there is a ‘fair’ compromise honestly. There are some people that are fine with dueling, they just don’t want to have to put up with it in the open world. There are those that think it would be fine in the open world, but having it in arenas is too much of a hassle.

Personally I say either leave it in the mists as it is. Or, make a group of servers separate from the rest, where dueling is enabled. Give free transfers for the first couple of weeks, enable guesting like normal, but sort them separately in the megaserver. (Dueling vs non-dueling instance) Then those that want to duel can, and those that don’t want anything to do with don’t have to be bothered by it.

If dueling is released tomorrow with auto-decline duels enabled as a default, there is NO change to the game. If each person that wants to duel elects to disable that option, people that want to duel would seek out others that want to duel, not people that have made the conscious decision to leave auto-decline on.

Open world dueling will not ruin the game! We already tolerate the loudest players in map chat, even more so with mega servers now. We continue to run dungeons, despite those who kick us for not being a guardian/war.

A consequence of playing an MMO is you have to deal with other people, the best and the worst, even if that means they have the freedom to scream their heads off and jump around constantly and spam skills.

Beldin.5498:

Scrambles.2604:

The “bringing people back” aspect plays on the idea that people bought GW2 but don’t play it because it lacks what you would typically expect from a MMO—duels, endgame, raids, etc.

The lack of those things is just exactly WHY i prefer GW2 over all those other MMOs.
And i don’t want GW2 to turn into just another WoW / AION whatever clone. There are already too much of those games out there, and not enough that are different, so for me, people that want raids should go to WoW/Rift/EQ/AoC whatever else. Those that want Open World ganking could play AION or any other korean game.

What have those players brought good to the game ? That ANet introduced ascended gear and kittened of masses of players, and in the end i believe those people still left the game.

You surely don’t play GW2 because of the lack of features. Do you enjoy not being able to sort the TP based on light/med/heavy gear? Do you enjoy being booted out of a dungeon when the leader leaves? Do you enjoy either playing in a 5 man group or a zerg with no in between? Do you enjoy that more than a year after launch WvW commanders still have no ability to command beyond having a viewable tag.

I could go on. There is a lot of polish left out of this game. For every one thing i like about this game there is also something i dislike. I realize dueling doesn’t qualify as a QoL feature for everyone, but in 2014 it is pretty much expected of MMOs that aren’t released undercooked.

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

Scrambles.2604:

Unless “awkward” is the new “finished.”

You remember when they said they want to support build diversity? Then they went and nerfed a bunch of the rune sets so that you had to use the entire set in order to get the best effects?

Awkward is the new finished. I’m glad you understand.

You just need to distinguish the intentions of the dev’s vs the intentions of the board of directors. Playable is acceptable if it’s generating revenue.

The dev’s finally got their way and pushed out the feature patch a year after launch. Awkward isn’t finished, it’s just finished is not much of a priority. Maybe we’ll get more stuff with the additional revenue from the Chinese release.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

You’re describing things GW2 players want to see added. Anet doesn’t care about them, they are already playing so potential for them to use the Gem store exists.

I stated that those were things people wanted, and Anet does care about them. Adding things to keep people playing as just as important as bringing back old players and bringing in new players. Happy players spend money.

The idea is to bring in former GW2 players that bought the game but left because of all the stuff this game lacks that other MMOs offer. After sticking with GW2 long enough, i understand it is the superior MMO out there, but a lot of jaded MMOers left the game long ago and don’t see what we GW2 players know and love about the game.

And it would bring people back. A lot of people left because they wanted those things and they weren’t here.

Dueling adds a lot of value to MMOs – it gives you more variety in the stagnant PvE environment.

I disagree. Dueling doesn’t do anything for ‘pve variety.’ Better mechanics, more bosses, more zones… those give you more ‘pve variety.’

If i’m standing around with my guildies waiting to do something, what am i gunna do? /dance? costume brawl? bang on my playable drum? Those are things but they are shallow. Give us duels and we can kill time, have fun, while also getting in good, friendly PvP practice.

Personally, I find dueling to be just as ‘shallow’ as anything else you mentioned. At least with CB, everyone can get involved and make it more interesting.

Lanfear, you’re cool and all but i wont argue with you point by point—that is tedious. I will continue to exchange ideas with you.

Honestly, i think we are both on the same page beyond tiny caveats and semantic arugments, we just value PvP and dueling differently. That is why open world dueling would require a “decline” button, and better yet, and auto-decline option.

I just don’t see how the ability to not be forced to duel isn’t a fair compromise for those not interested in PvP/dueling.

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

I have no idea if Anet is for or against this idea. Aside from that one really obtuse, “well yeah, maybe, hooo-hum, if we can make a profit on it” video, I’ve never seen them do a thing about it, except to create custom arenas, for profit.

Please take your dueling there.

Btw, I’m all for dueling and I’ve said that many times. I don’t want to see it in the open world and I think you’ll find that most of the people who object to dueling are only objecting to the open world part.

i would LOVE to get my own custom sPvP arena. But i don’t have..what 1600 gems? That’s an outrageous price to pay for what should be an easy and accessible past-time. Even in the interview Colin calls custom sPvP “awkward work around.” To me this indicates dueling is not in the current position they would like it to be in. Unless “awkward” is the new “finished.”

Beldin.5498:

Scrambles.2604:

Dueling adds a lot of value to MMOs – it gives you more variety in the stagnant PvE environment.

What exactly does it add ? Something to do when your bored in game ?
So people who left the game because they are bored of the whole game will come back just so they can again get so bored here that they want to duel ? Really ???

read my first post about how there is literally no introduction to PvP. There is hand holding in PvE from lvl 1-80, but if you are interested in PvP, you are expected from the get go to know what to do with a full fledged/geared lvl 80 character.

The “bringing people back” aspect plays on the idea that people bought GW2 but don’t play it because it lacks what you would typically expect from a MMO—duels, endgame, raids, etc. Personally, i think everything has been brought up to speed with a modern day MMO (besides all the little bugs and weird caveats—see TP issues), but the lack of duels is still a big hole.

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

LOL. Are you serious? “Something we might look at in the future”

Along with precursor scavenger hunts, precursor crafting, playing the game the way you want to play and of course, Anet doesn’t make grindy games, because nothing is ever off the table around here.

Get real.

there is more evidence out there, but that video is pretty cut and dry. “it is something we’d like to add in the future.”

If you’ve read any of my other posts, i’ve explained why they would like to add it, but that “the future” is a bleak projection for adding it. It doesn’t mean that they are against the idea of open world duels in itself, though.

If you’re still bitter i would challenge you to present evidence they are against open world duels. If you would like to say “well they aren’t in the game so they don’t want it” then you would also have to assume everything else left out of the game is also intentional. More often then not it is a matter of resources, not “preserving the community.”

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

Personally, i think adding open world duels would bring a lot of people back into the game. You gotta get people to play the game before they buy stuff from the Gem store. And to get people to play, you have to give them features that are generally expected from an MMO in 2014.

I don’t think open world dueling would bring as many people back as you think. There are plenty of other games out there if that is what someone desires. Games which also incorporate open world pvp period, no need to wait for someone to accept. Just jump ’em.

Additional sPvP modes would probably bring lots of people back though. Things like annihilation and gvg. Additional maps in spvp would probably be enjoyable as well.

WvWers would like to see more wvw maps, although I’m not sure how that could be worked in. Perhaps they could build some maps and do some type of map progression like GW1 AB maps, although I don’t think that would work with the existing map set up. Perhaps just adding more mechanics to the existing maps might work as well. Things like the ability to build barricades, better rewards for defending, etc.

PvEers want to see elite dungeons. They want to see the return of FoW, UW, DoA, or something similar. Something like this would see people return to pve content, as long as it required skill and couldn’t just be waltzed through.

There are a lot of things the different player bases are asking for, for their various modes. Many of which would help bring people back, but I don’t think dueling is among those things. That’s just my opinion though.

You’re describing things GW2 players want to see added. Anet doesn’t care about them, they are already playing so potential for them to use the Gem store exists.

The idea is to bring in former GW2 players that bought the game but left because of all the stuff this game lacks that other MMOs offer. After sticking with GW2 long enough, i understand it is the superior MMO out there, but a lot of jaded MMOers left the game long ago and don’t see what we GW2 players know and love about the game.

Dueling adds a lot of value to MMOs – it gives you more variety in the stagnant PvE environment.

If i’m standing around with my guildies waiting to do something, what am i gunna do? /dance? costume brawl? bang on my playable drum? Those are things but they are shallow. Give us duels and we can kill time, have fun, while also getting in good, friendly PvP practice.

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

Scrambles.2604:

None of that matters though, because all evidence has shown Anet is pretty much OK with open world dueling.

Really? Care to show us where you read that?

Open World dueling? No thanks. Again!

yeah, give me a second to put on my smug suspenders.

Ok. Here’s an interview with Colin Johanson – skip to 14:11 if the video doesn’t do that automatically.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy7CcwnfUdU

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Scrambles.2604:

ugh. Ok i totally understand that some people are afraid of being bullied by duels. I cant rationalize it, but it is a fear and most fears are irrational anyway.

Which is why i concluded my statement that none of our little forum chatter matters. You can complain all day that open world duels are toxic even though every single MMO gets along fine with an accept/decline system.

In the end it isn’t a matter of “how will duels effect the game environment”— That is probably one of the last variables Anet considers. It is a matter of Dev time vs potential to generate more revenue. At this point in the game that is how everything is decided.

I know it sounds righteous to defend the community zeitgeist against the scourge of seemingly competitive play, but Anet dont care bout none of that. We are all just potential dollar signs and Anet just wants to find ways to get us to the cash shop, while keeping the game at an acceptable level of playability for the lowest cost.

Again, more to it than just that, but you can reduce it down to something ‘so meaningless’ if you so please. Like I said, other issues obviously don’t matter to those they don’t affect. They simply reduce them down to non-issues, which have been argued at length and I’m not going to bother getting into yet again.

It might not simply be a time vs revenue thing either, although I’m sure revenue is a large factor in a lot of things. It could simply be that because of how pve is currently designed, it is not a conducive environment to 1v1 open world pvp. PvE is designed (presently) to be a cooperative environment, where people help and affect each other without necessarily having to be part of the game group. Its likely that many of these mechanics would need to be tweaked, or completely overhauled, in order to implement a pvp addition to the mode. Depending on how much work would need to be done, it might be simpler to keep the pvp in the mists or set up a different server environment for those types of players. It’s hard to tell without seeing their code.

i agree with your reasons for why open world dueling may not exist in PvE, but all of those reasons are a factor of Time Vs Money, or more simply just Cost vs Revenue.

Some games (WoW) see more revenue when they add polish to the game. Anet doesn’t automatically get more subscribers (aka revenue) when QoL improvements bring people back to the game, they only get revenue when they get you to buy Gems. Thus, more time/money/effort/resources are put into commodities/skins and less to just get people playing.

Personally, i think adding open world duels would bring a lot of people back into the game. You gotta get people to play the game before they buy stuff from the Gem store. And to get people to play, you have to give them features that are generally expected from an MMO in 2014.

uknortherner.2670:

Scrambles.2604:

the forums are split between those that want duels and those who can’t be bothered to decline a duel request.

Ah, of course. Those of us who don’t want duels are in fact lazy and are not in fact fed up with trolls and petulant 12-year-olds who think that bunny-hopping around, whispering “duel me brah” and “u scared?” every five seconds is a perfectly mature way to conduct themselves.

I believe the mentality of the pro-duel camp on this thread is reason enough for duels to never be implemented in this game.

No, those that don’t want duels are content to hit “decline” and go on with their life.

Those that advocate against duels invent fantasy situations where what features we are allowed in game are dictated by a made-up 12 year old that lives to ruin your game play.

Even without duels we got fools in quaggan tonics jumping around yelling “duel me brah.” It doesn’t hurt anything. Should we all just put on our business suits and queue up in an orderly fashion so as not to upset the quiet? It’s a friggen video game!

Harassment is an entirely different beast and i don’t think it is fair to automatically pair dueling and harassment. Harassment occurs with or without dueling and there are systems in place to prevent it.