Guild Wars 2

@HipposWild

I guess my point of view is that within a given devision the difference between skill level shouldn’t be that significant. Once people spread out there shouldnt be a massive difference between a team with lower amber mmr and higher amber mmr. The odds will still be against the lower MMR teams. But there SHOULD be victories at that point. Not just a losing streak. Meaning that due to the nature of amber they WILL start to progress to the next tier. Improving there MMR and repairing much of the damage done to there MMR in the process. By following that thought process to the end. In the end there should NOT be a massive difference in placement for people of similar skill levels.

Like you said. The effect of a single bad player can be massive. That holds true for the people with higher MMRs than they deserve as well. Eventually there going to cause there team losses. As the difference between there teams MMR and there opponents gets smaller and smaller the higher they get. Eventuall theyl be fighting people with almost the same “theoretical” skill level. Meaning he will cause there team to lose as he fails against his opponents. They will continue to fail in that devision until players that are actually of his skill level catch up and he is partnered with and against them.

Like I said in my previous post I believe this will happen around ruby. Becuase thats where a losing streak will start being TRULY painful (actual loss of achieved progress)

Which leads us to your last point. And that I feel is whats going to be the crux of this games future.

Whether the player base can HANDLE it. Theres a big difference between people that don’t mind being forced to improve to progress vs those that don’t. And I feel its the biggest difference between this system and the previous one. In the last system there was no real need to want to get better. Or even to know how skilled you actually were. No matter how good you are. No matter how hard you tried. The game would keep you at a 50/50 ratio as much as it could.

Your right. Players are going to get frustrated. I am sure SOME will leave. I doubt itl be a massive amount though. And if it is. Then it just goes to show that the playerbase itself was also flawed.

Ranked is meant to be competitive. It never was before. It was the ILLUSION of competition.

My final thoughts on the matter is this though. If the playerbase really DOES collapse over something like this. Then it was never good enough to actually become competitive as a whole. It would mean that despite all the people crying and screaming that there efforts didn’t matter were never actually what they thought they were.

Its kind of like how some people say Ranked is only for those that wan’t to take PvP seriously and want to actually improve there own skills and that unranked is right around the corner for people that want it.

Likewise. If the guild wars 2 pvp scene dies because the game is actually trying to push towards a competitive system. Then it was never going to BE competitive. Ever. And we should have stayed in the proverbial unranked and never moved forward.

HipposWild.7185:

Shadelang.3012:

shion.2084:

Buffalo Bruiser.3567:

if its “random”, then how is it possible that i have not been “randomly” placed on a team that wins? How is it that every game has been a destruction?

The reason you might be on a winning team is that your MMR is high. So you are matched with other high MMR’s. Since your team will have a high MMR it is statistically more likely you will be competing against lower MMR’s so your MMR will increase and you will in general stomp. So success will be rewarded by being placed in higher and higher MMR teams.

Now lets say you just create your PvP account an dyou are an excellent player. And lets say many others do as well and the majority of those haven’t PvP’d before. Your MMR’s will all be at the same level I assume. Right?

So excellent you will be likely to be teamed with suck teammates. Now you loose and your MMR goes down. So you will be teamed with other people who lost. And most of them were folks who’ve never PvP’d … so you’ll loose again and your MMR will go down, now you will be teamed with folks with even lower MMRs.

So basically unless I’m missing something, if you randomly draw people whom can actually play in your first few games your MMR will go up and it will continue to be easier for you in your division. If you randomly get some new players your MMR will go down and things will only be harder from there.

Eventually however anyone with a higher MMR than you will go outside of your range. And youl stop falling.

Again… you’re missing the problem! If you drop below average maybe for skill reasons or maybe because this system inherently creates a massive eruption of false positive predictions you’re only getting tossed with the worst players so your MMR wouldn’t necessarily reach an equilibrium. You’d eventually move on in terms of rank with a low MMR because you’re always on a losing team because you’re always with bad players. There is no logic to that system.

(Not really “again” you posted your previous reply AFTER the post your quoting here).

For the sake of argument after reading your previous post I stopped for a bit and attempted to piece the system together in my head. Here is the results I have reached.

Its largely going to be up to the human element here. If people are being forcefully partnered below there (actual) level. Then eventually their opponents will be people with lower MMR than what that person skill level SHOULD be at. Meaning that its likely that they will start to win matches due to the fact that they will outperform personally the other team.

So even if they say have a theoreticaly MMR of 600. And their team mates are between 550 and 650. If his ACTUALY skill level is at say.. 900. Then his impact on the match should be more and more significant. In the lower tiers a single good player can destroy multiple unskilled opponents. Even simply rotating properly can turn the game in his teams favor. Regardless of whether nor not the REST of his team is actually at kitten MMR skill level.

This is even more likely as the higher tier opponents get further and further away. Making it so that people that ARE higher MMR than him and likely those with bloated MMRs that are actually on or near his level.

I don’t think the MMR bloating is going to be as massive as you seem to think it is. Especially as the ability to lose pips and then tiers exists. Say I am a 800 MMR player. During the first match of my league I got partnered with someone whos SKILL level was at 1000. We win that match. Our MMR raises and we start a win streak.

Eventually I am going to hit a point where I am getting slaughtered by my opponents. I would guess this would start around ruby. As my MMR starts to rise artificially due to high level players around me my effectiveness in the match will steadily decrease. Just as the player that has had his MMR falling is becoming MORE effective in each match.

I am going to hit a point where I am dragging my team down so much we lose. Lowering my MMR. Its possible I will lose MULTIPLE matches. further lowering my MMR and causing me to lose pips. Causing me to be partnered with AND against weaker people. Don’t forget the current MMR takes the TIER and division you are in into account. So its not like rubies will be fighting ambers.

Its likely ill be stuck at the bottom of ruby. Until other ruby level players like the aforementioned player on the losing streak fill in the gaps left behind by the high tier players.

Your logic only works if the high tier players stay a relevant part of the low tier combat. But as they rise up there effect on the lower tiers will steadily dissapear. At that point the skill of the lower tier will start correct itself. As people with artifically low MMRs will start to dominate their opponents. Raising themselves back up since there now longer being held down by diamond/legendary quality players.

Atleast that is how the system seems to be designed.

I would like to make one more point as well. It makes ZERO sense for arena net to create a purposefully inaccurate system. They gain nothing from it. Infact they only stand to lose from it as far as I can tell.

Edit; even if your at the bottom of amber. Your opponents are still amber level players. If you can’t win matches against amber level players no matter WHAT your mmr or the MMR of your team mates happens to be. Then there is more than just your teams quality that is an issue.

Edit 2: Fixed some grammar issues >.< Im sure I missed more than what I got but I got the most obvious ones.

shion.2084:

Buffalo Bruiser.3567:

if its “random”, then how is it possible that i have not been “randomly” placed on a team that wins? How is it that every game has been a destruction?

The reason you might be on a winning team is that your MMR is high. So you are matched with other high MMR’s. Since your team will have a high MMR it is statistically more likely you will be competing against lower MMR’s so your MMR will increase and you will in general stomp. So success will be rewarded by being placed in higher and higher MMR teams.

Now lets say you just create your PvP account an dyou are an excellent player. And lets say many others do as well and the majority of those haven’t PvP’d before. Your MMR’s will all be at the same level I assume. Right?

So excellent you will be likely to be teamed with suck teammates. Now you loose and your MMR goes down. So you will be teamed with other people who lost. And most of them were folks who’ve never PvP’d … so you’ll loose again and your MMR will go down, now you will be teamed with folks with even lower MMRs.

So basically unless I’m missing something, if you randomly draw people whom can actually play in your first few games your MMR will go up and it will continue to be easier for you in your division. If you randomly get some new players your MMR will go down and things will only be harder from there.

Eventually however anyone with a higher MMR than you will go outside of your range. And youl stop falling.

Hippo I feel like the one with the flawed logic is you. It feels like you created a conclusion and have since only looked at the information that feels relevant to you. Id ask you to look at the whole picture. However you seem determined to hate the current setup.

There is no reason for this system to not work. But it will take TIME till it sorts itself out.

There IS no focus on CREATING one sided matches. The one sided matches are a byproduct of the system getting data. The more data it has. The more accurate it will become.

Buffalo Bruiser.3567:

Shadelang.3012:

Buffalo Bruiser.3567:

if its “random”, then how is it possible that i have not been “randomly” placed on a team that wins? How is it that every game has been a destruction?

Because its not random. Thats exactly what we were trying to tell you.
Edit: Infact it will become LESS random the longer the league runs. And even matchups will start to form NATURALLY instead of ARTIFICIALLY. Which is what the PvP playerbase asked for.

so you are saying they put 5 elites against 5 non-elites?

Yes. But not out of maliciousness. They even added a win streak mechanic to hurry the process up. There just trying to give accurate representations of skill level. But that takes TIME. The longer the league lasts. The more even the games will get. Its even possible then itl be YOUR turn to roflstomp people for several games at a time. As only people at your level and those weaker than you will be around you. Then YOU will get pushed up to the place where you belong (When you start fighting even skilled opponents). At that point the elite players will be long gone from your perspective. Theyl be off in the higher devisions butchering eachother.

Buffalo Bruiser.3567:

if its “random”, then how is it possible that i have not been “randomly” placed on a team that wins? How is it that every game has been a destruction?

Because its not random. Thats exactly what we were trying to tell you.
Edit: Infact it will become LESS random the longer the league runs. And even matchups will start to form NATURALLY instead of ARTIFICIALLY. Which is what the PvP playerbase asked for.

Oh Snapalope.1378:

Currently I climbed to sapphire really really quick. On the way there I would say about 10% of my games are even games, while the other 90% are full on stomps or full on getting stomped. This is seriously not fun for anybody. I’m really leaning towards this system being not worth it if we are forced to endure really broken matches for a prolong period of time.

The hope though is that this is the only time this will be necessary. If it places us in the NEXT league based on the results of this league. Then much of this issue should be mitigated. And the time it takes to spread out should be even faster. Were in the data collection process of a new system. Until that data is filled out however there is a lot of blank spots.

As long as the system works the first time (accurate representation by the end of this league). Then itl be worth it. But if it fails. Then probably not so much.

Edit: also if people have a more accurate representation of where they were at at the end of this league. Then they will know about how far they need to get to start fighting even opponents and start progressing.

@Oh Snapalope. Your right that the big question is if its worth it. Ultimately though if the games pvp is ever going to be taken seriously this kind of set up is almost mandatory. As in the previous mode there wasn’t actually any real way to know how good you really were.

We can see the evidence around us right now that alot of players thought that they were better than they were. And I know some friends that are currently very suprised at there progress (one of which im almost certain is tournament tier. But he never had the confidence to try for a team.)

So alot of people are getting slapped in the face. But on the other hand others are realizing they weren’t as bad as they thought they were. By the end of this league we should have the first accurate representation of where people actually are. Whether the game can survive the truth though… thats a whole nother problem.

Oh Snapalope.1378:

I’ll explain the lopsided games.

“Beginning with Season 2, matchmaking for Ranked matches will use your placement in your current league division as your primary matchmaking consideration and pair you against players who are placed in the same point range as you, regardless of the skill level (MMR) of the other people in that point range."

This is what they said how the season 2 MM system will work.

So actually to clarify something and please correct me if I’m misreading. The way the system currently works is it only considers MMR on your own team and not the full 10 players. So let’s say there’s 10 people queuing within an acceptable division range, 5 players are around 800 MMR and the other 5 are around 1000 MMR. Due to the fact that the system only considers making a team of 5 of similar MMR players at a time, the 5 800 MMR players will be put on one team and the 5 1000 MMR players will be on the other team. So what you get is high skilled players on 1 team and less skilled players on the other. Of course the result is the 800 MMR team getting stomped.

The result is you will never get a balanced team vs. balanced team like a team of 2 1500 MMR players + 3 800 MMR players vs. 2 1500 MMR players + 3 800 MMR players.

But with all said, I prefer the balanced team vs balanced team setup more.

The thing is eventually the teams will end up balanced. Or atleast so close it won’t matter. As different teams will progress at different rates. The 800mmr people SHOULD start fighting other 800mmr (or close) becuase they will be the only ones in range.

Atleast thats how I have understood it.

Buffalo Bruiser.3567:

Yeah ok. How the hell does that explain such lopsided losses? And don’t be the customary tool that says its my skill level. By luck alone, anybody should win by their 15 match, really?

The reason for such lopsided losses is that a large portion of high tier players are in a lower tier right now. From what I read the current matchmaking tries to place a person with people of nearly the same skill level. Meaning a high tier player is going to be partnered with high tier player. Then it tries to find opponents that exist in the same tier REGARDLESS of there skill level.

Say your on that opposing team. Youl ALSO have been assigned people near your (recorded) skill level. So you could have a full 5 people each of which is less skilled (as far as the game has recorded) than your opponents team.

This pretty much guarantees a lopsided match.

HOWEVER. Due to the win streak set up this means that the higher tier player will progress very quickly through the tiers. Quickly making it to the next tier where they will start fighting stronger opponents. It ALSO means that your team will be held behind them until they move on…making sure that your two groups are seperated over time.

Does it SUCK for people on the losing end of that? Yes. But it was inevitable. Even if they did a full MMR reset this would still be happening. As high tier players would have quickly seperated themselves out. The only difference then is that they would have dragged other players up with them. Players that may not necessarily be at the level that there representing.

As it is now the higher tier players ARE progressing forward at a quick rate. Soon none of them will exist in amber. And then emerald…saphire etkittenil they hit a point where the only people they have to fight is people that are at there level. Because those will be the only people still in range.

But until there seperated. Anyone that ISN’T on that forward curve is going to get shafted. Welcome to a ladder system.

Edit: As far as luck goes. This setup TRIES to take luck out of the equation as time passes. I.E. There will be less “luck” involved the longer the league happens. The most luck involved was in your very first match. Which likely decided which side of the curve you were on.

The reason for this has been explained in a dozen threads now. The general consensus is let the kitten league sort out. We KNEW this is what would happen. Nearly every PvPer that asked for exactly for this system knew this would happen. The issue is alot of those people didn’t realize where there skill level actually was. Now that were being partnered by tier instead of by Win/Loss ratio people are getting harsh wakeup calls.

Let the max tier people get where they need to go. It won’t take the much longer to spread out. But making rage posts cussing out Anet for giving us EXACTLY what the vocal portion of our community asked for is not exactly bright…nor is it fair to Arenanet.

Im actually all for Gwen. I miss her.

As MANY other players have said. The new matchmaking is alot more accurate as to your skill level than the previous one. The previous matchmaking ALWAYS balanced you against as near odds as possible making it hard to progress for everyone equally. Meaning that it was also equally EASY to progress.

Alot of people ended up in diamond/legendary despite being what in the current system would be the ruby tiers.

The new matchmaking takings a few days to sort out. But the end result is where you end up will be a more accurate representation of your actual skill level not just how many games you played. The previous leagues matchmaking favored perseverance more than anything else.

Unranked follows this set up still. Trying to match you with opponents near your level to promote even games and steady growth.

Ranked favors your placement more. Meaning that where you are decides who your opponents are. So even if you have the skill of a legendary. You will PROBABLY be fighting amber opponents…saphire opponents..emerald ones. Etkittenil you get to legendary tier.

Atm Most players are still in the first two tiers. And alot of high skill players may only play half as much as others meaning they likely havn’t even reached ruby yet despite having an extremely high win rate. So theyl continue fighting low division players until they also progress. The entire process will start being sorted out in a few days.

It doesn’t really hurt anyone either. This is EXACTLY what many players have asked for. What I find ironic is that quite a few of those players are wondering why there suddenly losing alot. Meaning its likely they got to there previous ranking through games played as opposed to skill. And there only just realizing that.

I wish that this matchmaking method had been used for the first league. As it seems ALOT of players have false impressions of how they are in the PvP hierarchy. Starting out with this would have given people a more accurate impression of there skill level.

Id reccomend playing casually for a few days. Let it sort itself out. Once it has youl find your average game is probably alot better for you. Once people are where they actually belong. Theyl start to get the close games they want.

Be patient and don’t overestimate yourself too much. This is probably going to be the first time in this games history that people actually get a fix on where they really are. And I think its gonna hit alot of people hard. Hell I might even find out as I play that I am no where NEAR as good as I think I am. Despite hitting legendary last season through soloqueing. And If I do thatl be good for me. Cause itl give me an idea on what players I need to target and hunt down in order to improve.

Im pretty certain it CAN be. I play a shout ranger and it isn’t rare (not common…but not quite rare either) that I get “taunted” by a reaper im fighting. Where a condi transfer is the only possibility.

Only explanation is I use taunt. It pushes the reaper up to that threshold. It gets transferred back and suddenly my character is standing there leaving me with the irony that my stun break just caused me to get hit by something I could have used that stun break for. (Im speaking about plague sending (I think its called…the get 3 condis immediately transfer them back trait) that seems to be the most common method I get hit by this)

So at least in my experience im fairly certain it CAN be transfered. Or its just a massive coincidence that has been repeated multiple times. Which is totes possible I guess.

(deleted my previous reply because it had a lot of baseless speculation and was opinionated)

Why they were taken has no bearing on this discussion. Only that it WAS taken. And that it did have said effect.

If the meta had been projectile weapons for every class you know as well as I that the uptime on magnetic aura would NEVER have been allowed. Ele’s were able to shut down an entire mechanic COMPLETELY. With no method of bypassing. Auras can’t be corrupted. They don’t have charges. The only counter play they have is. Don’t attack.

And they were fine. No one thought they were unbalanced until tempest came out. What did it change?

It made auras a sustain method that could NOT be mitigated in any way shape or form by the opponent.

Magnetic aura (since this is relevant to the OP) SHUT DOWN all ranged projectile based weapons with almost constant uptime (This did require other skill use but the fact that it was possible AT ALL is the problem…it also wasn’t difficult to pull off as you saw it at many skill levels.) But magnetic aura never really got screamed at as being OP because the number of players that relied on projectile ranged weapons to deal damage was low (dragonhunters and longbow rangers) and generally those classes are seen in a poor light.

You only had to look at stronghold to get an idea of the affect a couple tempests would have. Doorbreakers that were unkillable even with an entire team of dpsers without INSANE coordination vs the ease at which it was accomplished. I.E. Nothing a pug group could hope to compensate for.

Were going pretty far from the OP so id like to just state this. Magnetic Aura in a 1v1 alone untraited is inferior to defensive field by the scrapper. But an ele can invest HEAVILY in magnetic aura. Gaining multiple sources of it. Causing it to heal. And making it AOE so that it could affect five players WITHOUT being confined to a circle. This makes it far superior when its invested in. Making me doubt the OP. The reason it has less duration LIKELY has nothing to do with what your opponent has in a 1v1. But the potential of each ability as a whole when all of the things that can be tied into are taken into account.

Magnetic Aura simply has more potential than defensive field when everything is taken into account. But yes theres a specific situation (1v1s) where the other skill is better.
(Edit: Which is kitten well how it should be or wed all be playing one class)

Laraley.7695:

Shadelang.3012:

If magnetic aura effected only a single target. Or affected an area that the person it was protecting had to stay inside to benefit from. It would likely still have its old duration.

You do realize most auras only affect the person that casted it unless you take a GM trait for aura share?

Which the vast majority of people did for quite awhile. I can’t see how they could afford to balance it without that trait in mind. Especially considering how powerful it was combined with tempest. And the fact that said GM trait was DESIGNED to work with that specific mechanic.

Also they have fewer overall sources and can’t put it on 5 people that can then separate.

Nearly all of an engineers reflection has a set area as well as a very heavy telegraph involved.

Magnetic Aura is actually quite difficult to see (you see the effects that cause it before you see the magnetic aura itself). And is often spotted either by monitoring the buff bar or watching for returning attacks. Meaning that an eles magnetic aura is more likely to actually reflect something.

There was also a pretty big issue of tempests covering a full 5 people with magnetic aura for long periods of time by cycling cooldowns. (You saw this in conquest as well as stronghold fairly often). Making weapons such as longbows for dragonhunters and rangers irrelevant…almost permanently. (gaps were filled with swirling winds). Or atleast long enough that the fight was over by the time it was done.

An engineer however gets there reflects from highly telegraphed skills that affect limited ranges. (I.E. Either A: Its personnel reflect ONLY. or B: it limits the mobility of there allies.)

That means that an engineers reflect has much less defensive potential as a whole compared to aoe magnetic aura.

If magnetic aura effected only a single target. Or affected an area that the person it was protecting had to stay inside to benefit from. It would likely still have its old duration.

Edit: at least this is my take on it.

I actually love TD >.< tunnels are extremely fun for me to travel through. And I would have an epicgasm if more cavern/tunnel style maps were developed in the future. Not knowing whats around the corner or even above or below you. And watching the ground for giant holes to fall and glide through is amazing.

Can’t speak for others. But after getting to legendary rank the hard way in ranked and going against the players in that tier for a few weeks. Getting sent back to unranked is…almost painful. I have done probably less than a dozen matches sense the league ended due to it just not being engaging. And I don’t even have the benefit of working towards something to make it worth it.

The average quality of the match in unranked FEELs alot lower after what I experienced in the league.

So I guess the leagues actually worked in a way. This is just a negative side effect.

Name: Seranas Windwake
Gender: Female
Race: Human
Profession: Ranger
Weapons: Greatsword Longbow
Order of Whispers

Seranas learned very early on in her life that the only way for her to survive would be to take from others. And in time she learned to enjoy doing so.

When she first picked up a weapon it was in defense against not the forces of the dragon but other humans. Bandits had attacked her home and as she listened to the screams of her loved ones she decided that lives truly weren’t equal. She picked up her fathers bow and began her first act of death. In the end she was the only person left alive when the Seraph found her.

The Seraph took her in. Fed her. Clothed Her. Trained Her. And in time she joined there services. Until during a patrol her team stumbled upon another group of bandits. Much like the ones she encountered that day. When they engaged the bandits her comrades found something strange.

Seranas was singing with a soft smile as her bow “Twanged” again and again. Each arrow found there marks in a vital point. And none of her targets survived. This unnerved her comrades who began to look upon her with more fear than respect. In time her death count was higher than even the older veterans. Not because she saw more combat. But because she never allowed even a single criminal to live.

As time past her team grew more and more distant from her and she found herself being more and more isolated. And she was alright with that. But eventually the Seraph leadership learned of this anomaly in there ranks. She was given a choice. Curb her blood lust…for the Seraph were not butchers… or leave. She was singing that same…haunting…melody as she left the barracks with her gear.

She left the human territories. Traveling the world. Looking for every criminal she could find and laying waste to them. Rumors began to spread of a butcher with no pride or honor…A Hunter more than a warrior.

For years she thought she would be alone. Until she stumbled across a group of Norn tormenting a young wolf in the frozen reaches of the north. Svanir’s get she new on sight and she smirked as she drew back her bowstring. When her first arrow hit the young wolf took advantage of the gap in there defenses not to run as another animal might have done. But to attack…hamstringing a distracted norn leaving him defenseless when the next arrow struck him in the throat. And when she left the bloodstained snow behind the wolf followed her silently. She had found a companion on her hunt.

In time she found herself at the Asuran Gates to the mist. Drawn by tales of never-ending conflict. She makes the Heart of the Mists her home now. Watching would be warriors pouring through the gate. Eager for the next hunt. Singing a wordless song that caused those that approached her to think twice. Even before they saw the strange gleam in her eye as she looked upon them.

It isn’t a visible stacking buff on your bar or anything like that. Most likely because it is debuff based. As far as I know the trait is pretty straightforward. For every stack of vuln the enemy has. You have 2% extra crit chance up to a maximum of 50% extra crit chance.

So the only real counter you have is the number of vuln stacks. If you see he has 13 vuln. You know you have an extra 26% chance to crit. It won’t show in your stats because likely because its a more….external?…mechanic. Im not sure if thats the right way to phrase it but its how I mentally picture it functioning. Obviously im no programmer.

Dahkeus.8243:

WilnerGW.3275:

But how will work the Allies Aid trait on nature magic?

You will start to revive you ally then it will…teleport him to you??

Probably…but I’m curious:

If 2 allies were downed and you targetted one that was a little ways away and then started rezzing the other, would it teleport the other ally to you as well?

And yea, if you’re already running S&R, this would be a completely redundant trait.

The description of the adept trait has not changed. As far as I can tell allies aid does the same thing it used to. Meaning it is useful in the exact same fashion it was before.

If someone would care to test it please do so. But from what I can tell its exactly the same as it was previously.

I feel like those kind of condi bombs are something Druids are MEANT to be weak against tbh. Its part of what keeps druids from dominating team fights as condis are a reliable method of locking a druid down provided you spread the application out.

Also keep in mind what youd be losing in order to take the new empathic bond. The quickness on pet swap and the taunt are both major things in several builds. So builds that currently take both empathic bond and say quickness on pet swap would now have to give up whats ultimately a major aspect of there build.

Also doesn’t druid have some of the BEST anti condi methods in the entire class?

rummy.4102:

Also of note: I played around with soldier rune last night and some shouts and the tool tips say nothing about removing condi’s. Don’t know if this is wai or not, I never actually tested it.

The tooltip has never been updated to work with trooper runes. They do still have effect.

Edit: before the patch the condi cleanse effect from the runes only affected the ranger and his pet. It honestly never occured to me to check and see if it affected nearby players now o.O gonna have to test that

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Shadelang.3012:

{snip}

First off, idk what I did to kitten you off so bad, but back off hero. I wasn’t even talking to you, I was responding to the question asked of me. Second, I have played and used that skill since before they even added the trait for swiftness and regen so I know it pretty well myself. The fact you never learned how to properly use it and prefer yet another lazy “eat damage” skill is not my problem. Third, don’t assume you know me, my skill, or basically anything about me unless you’re some kind of creepy stalker in which case you need to be reported. So climb down off that lofty ledge before you fall and hurt yourself or get a nosebleed

Lol alright then. But if you have used that skill for that long you should KNOW that the pet easily abandons the designated guard area in combat. Meaning that you COULDN’T use the skill the way you were claiming you could. You could use it to set up the pet before you actually entered combat as long as no enemy approached the pet ahead of time. But you couldn’t actually use it to reposition the pet mid combat. It was actually impossible due to the fact that the skill set the pet to behave as if aggressive. Meaning it would automatically attack whoever you were in combat with. Meaning melee pets would chase them down. And ranged pets would start firing immediately from wherever they happened to be when you used the skill.

Yeah I noticed this in game. Was kinda annoying to see. But atleast now you can immediately have your pet attack and the skill will still have its full affect. So at least there is a work around.

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Salamander.2504:

Nay of the Ether.8913:

I am NOT impressed with Guard change… tested it, it pretty much sucks. The old Guard was much, much better and allowed for better strategic placement of pets as well as increased their survivability by a ton. I do like the other shouts, but for me they have effectively ruined Guard. Will never find it’s way on my bar.

What didn’t you like about the new Guard?

new guard: long recharge, low uptime compared to old guard (which had 100% uptime); pet dies too quickly in even small engagements unless you take a snorefest tankbear which does nothing at all to help ranger’s image…; old guard: used to be able to get perma regen and swiftness on an instant cast skill along with very long protection for the pet (which you could share with heal as one); pet could be positioned outside danger zones (yes that worked in combat too, whoever said it didn’t had no idea what they were doing) and for ranged pets it was a must because they have this nasty habit of going melee; new guard pretty much no synergy with other skills like old guard had (in fact it has none…should you use another shout, this gets cancelled). it’s just yet another “eat damage, bunker metagarbage” type of skill. If they wanted to use something like this, they should have made it a spirit that eats incoming damage for allies and left old guard alone. Now don’t misunderstand me, the other shouts got some massive QoL improvements, but this one got hacked up and turned into a gimmicky kitten skill.

I am sorry but…your wrong on several cases. Guard does NOT cancel if you use another shout. It USED to. It does no longer. Guard has just as much synergy as any other defensive skill. In that it gives you breathing room to use them.

This guard is about way more than just “eating damage”. It encourages you to watch not only your own health and your pets health but that of your alliess as well. You can single handedly take off 50% of the pressure from them for a short time as long as you use it well.

The old guard DID NOT WORK the way you seem to think it did. Pets ignored the positioning once they entered combat. This could be tested simply by LOSing ANY ranged pet. They moved out of the guard field. Hell they would move two thousand range out of the way.

You have alot of misinformation that makes me question whether or not you have ever actually tried to use them competitively before. I have. I did it. I know these skills inside and out in every game mode.

You are wrong on several points. Points you could test easily before saying but you didn’t do that. You seem determined to not see that you were wrong which is frankly embarrassing to see.

Guard did not reposition the pet in combat. It did not in the length of my memory in this game. The pet would get caught up in ANY other attack action (which simply casting guard automatically acted as)

Guard did not WORK as it said in the skill. It was bugged,broken,glitched whatever you want to call it.

I made entire THREADS on the subject. So don’t bloody tell me I don’t know what I am talking about. After I have spent over 3 years testing them.

Edit: and you know what? Even if it DID work it would still be inferior to the current version. Frankly I don’t think you have learned how to and not to use this skill. Which if you were actually a shout ranger you would have pretty kitten fast because the new guard follows similar rules to protect me. I have ALREADY used this skill in several matches and completely turned team fights around by pretty much turning there focus target into a bunker for 6 seconds.

I usually like to cast my heal while its active just to keep the pet up. Seeing as it also shares the might im getting from the pet absorbing damage it has kittening AMAZING synergy. So your wrong about THAT too.

Edit2: removed most of the caps. Just because im frustrated with poorly informed posts doesn’t mean everyone else should have to be frustrated reading mine.

Yashuoa.9527:

Shadelang.3012:

Ill be honest despite making two rework threads on the subject I didn’t think shouts would get this kind of overhall. And so far I am pleased with just about everything I am seeing.

Guard gains a protect me like function as a support affect that ALSO buffs the ranger (which in turn buffs the pet if your taking nature magic) with a cooldown that Isn’t obscene.

Protect Me gains a UNIQUE functionality. as far as our defensive cooldowns go. Giving full shout rangers two defensive tools one of which is support based and the other a condition. AND a cooldown drop

and Search and Rescue gets a completely reworked functionality AND A MASSIVE COOLDOWN DROP.

All four shout utility cooldowns are now below 40 seconds. Meaning they will be fluid to use in a match and not one time only.

There new functionalities reward active play and careful timing instead of spamming on cooldown. They have varying levels of effectiveness based on situations but they will always do SOMETHING even if there major aspects are negated by enemy counterplay.

This is pretty much what I was hoping for since release.

Thank You. Looking forward to seeing more shout rangers running around.

Good hunting to yall.

I love it as well.
Atm I am paying with 3 shouts (heal, protect me and the elite) and the Rune of the soldier too, for condition cleanse.

I am most happy with protect me.

Heheheh your already 60% of the way there. Just slot those last two shouts on ;P you know you want to.

Perma swiftness and regen is still super easy to apply. And the “positioning” of the old guard worked only outside of combat. If you look up any of my old shout rework threads I believe I mentioned that around half a dozen times in each one haha. The old Guard didn’t properly function since the leash range was reduced.

Guard only kills the pet quickly if your not paying attention. Its not a 5v5 skill. its a 2v2-3v3 skill designed to protect someone in close proximity hense the 600 range limit. It also functions in 1v1s.

This guard is superior in that it can actually DO something that matters directly. Not as an accidental by product (In the last 3 years I mostly used guard to stealth pets in order to make sure there first attack (things like knockdowns on canines) landed… other than that though it was for the condi cleanse from trooper runes).

It takes skill to use. And thats a GOOD thing because it has a low cooldown and has the potential to swing small scale fights. Or even localized portions of large scale fights.

Just like the new protect me while not as IMMEDIATELY strong is better in that no matter the situation it will always do something that helps. Even if its just applying protection on demand and an aoe stunbreak on a 34 second cooldown. For those two id take the skill even without the taunt. The potential to taunt a thief off me is just a bonus.

Search and Rescue is good…nough said. Hell I may even take it in raids when im with a pug group seeing as someone always dies in the lightning fields. A 1200 range yoink is good for those situations.

Sic Em has been good ever since they fixed it canceling.

Actually thats the best part. NONE OF THEM BLOODY CANCEL EACHOTHER.

Haha necros are scary for sure. Though with the reduced aura uptime we can start using longbow again. So there is that. Fewer tempests means our biggest reason to not use longbow as a primary weapon is less prevalent.

Salamander.2504:

kevvy.5081:

Mouse.3608:

How long does the guard effect last for?

6 seconds.

How much % damage is transferred to the pet, what is the radius, and does the ranger count as an ally? Is it still ground-targeted? (At work, thanks!)

50% 600 radius No longer ground targeted. Seems all players atleast count as allies ( havnt tested with AI yet) The might lasts 6 seconds with nature magic equipped (5 seconds base) and the cooldown is up to 24 seconds. All in all I am bloody in love with it. Gotta be careful how you use it though. Don’t try to pop it in a meteor shower or rip pet.

Ill be honest despite making two rework threads on the subject I didn’t think shouts would get this kind of overhall. And so far I am pleased with just about everything I am seeing.

Guard gains a protect me like function as a support affect that ALSO buffs the ranger (which in turn buffs the pet if your taking nature magic) with a cooldown that Isn’t obscene.

Protect Me gains a UNIQUE functionality. as far as our defensive cooldowns go. Giving full shout rangers two defensive tools one of which is support based and the other a condition. AND a cooldown drop

and Search and Rescue gets a completely reworked functionality AND A MASSIVE COOLDOWN DROP.

All four shout utility cooldowns are now below 40 seconds. Meaning they will be fluid to use in a match and not one time only.

There new functionalities reward active play and careful timing instead of spamming on cooldown. They have varying levels of effectiveness based on situations but they will always do SOMETHING even if there major aspects are negated by enemy counterplay.

This is pretty much what I was hoping for since release.

Thank You. Looking forward to seeing more shout rangers running around.

Good hunting to yall.

The ranger and his pet are designed in a way that they are supposed to protect each other and account for each others weaknesses.

A ranger with low control can take pets that fulfill that role (canines and spiders).

A ranger with low sustain can bring a pet to take agro for it (only works in PvE)

A ranger with low damage can bring a pet to fulfill that role (what we have right now with druids).

Rangers are balanced around that. Hell they are designed around it.

What that means is that any change that affects the pet affects the ranger and all possible combinations he could make with it. This isn’t like lowering burn duration on a skill because it was over performing. Any change to a pet affects EVERY possible ranger build that could have used that pet.

Breaking the birstleback (not im saying BREAKING not nerfing…I am fully for having its f2 FIXED to fire the right number of projectiles NOT for massively reducing the damage the skill is supposed to do) hurts more than the druid. You also hurt the non druid rangers as well.

Balance the synergy sure. But that doesn’t mean hit the pet with an axe because of what ONE build archetype can do with it.

And if all else fails. Fight near a tempest…im not even joking. If that tempest is even SLIGHTLY competent hes going to completely negate the bristlebacks damage. That class has so much projectile hate its funny. Hell the tempest pretty much single handedly killed the rangers power build by making it nonexistent in any team fight.

Justine.6351:

They could simply increase the first pulse of immobilize to 3sec. Someone under -% immobilize effect will eat at least 1sec. If the ranger invests a modest 33% condi duration that would be another 1sec of immobilize.

After the first pulse or two, their -% immobilze duration would then take effect and allow them to leave.

Not a bad idea. It leaves the already existing counterplay alone. Just makes sure that the first immob has atleast a second of effect (Which is enough to disrupt someones entire combo and throw there cooldowns off sync). And it doesn’t further punish anyone that gets bugged out in them more than the current roots do.

anduriell.6280:

Shadelang.3012:

Err its plenty strong in 1v1s. And it loses strength in team fights. That actually seems pretty fine to me. It has counterplay and yet when that counterplay isn’t met its effective enough to cause death. Seems to me thats how MOST skills in this game should be.

You probably haven’t been playing against others than noobs that freeze as soon as they are immobilised. I’ve seen of those in WvW, they try to get off titling left to right.

Actually in PvP is even worst than in WvW so or you were very lucky or you are lying out loud.

So as i said What is the fring point of setting up the fancy root mechanic if the player can ignore it completely?

I mean they could make the root’s immo an special condition (like petrified and so) that immo you and can’t be cleansed or altered by food/runes so the target must to kill the root to get out (not like they don’t insta-die as soon as you hit them once) or stay put for 5 seconds while still can attack or cast skills. Why don’t do they?

Because right now with rune + traits + food you can get up to -80% condition duration…
So you can walk out like there is nothing there.
OR the resistance that make you ignore immo as well.
ShadowStep. Teleport. Blinks.

The ranger has too many fantastic ideas that could make the profession very interesting to play with but i’m tired of see this crap all the time in every single option the ranger is supposed to have.

• You got a nice cleave with the sword BUT you’ll get lock out as soon as you hit the AA.
• You got a nice axe that bounce between targets but you get a incomprehensible delay and weird slow cast animations.
• You got nice cleanses for conditions but they they will be locked in the same traitline so you must or to take that one or to take the same one.
• Shouts? if they seem useful let’s put them in an absurd cooldown of 60 seconds or more or some weird conditions to meet so we are shure they aren’t used.
• you got… (well we know there is a lot of crap like this).

First off lay off the insults mate no need for them.

I have been on BOTH ends of this skill mechanic quite a bit. You kind of HAVE to be after playing mostly PvP for 3 years. And im good enough to hit legendary tier on a HEAVILY sub optimal build through solo que. Unless you want to claim I got THAT by luck too you can bite me.

First. The mechanic itself is sound as well as the basis behind it. Yes they could make it so that killing the roots is the only way to break it. As soon as they fix immobilization in general not to bug you out if you use a leap skill inside them or if you were in the air when they hit.

But yes I agree that would work. Oh and as soon as they make them more readily hittable by certain ranged weapons since last I checked the roots appear inside and slightly behind your hit box if your moving. Meaning a ranged weapon simply won’t be able to target them if your moving forward when they hit. (Guaranteed way to bug out if your hit while using swoop to close on another ranger)

Theres stuff they need to fix BEFORE they get rid of its ability to be cleansed or its going to reveal alot of bugs that at the moment just aren’t encountered often enough for people to really complain about them.

Second. There nature of easily being cleansed isn’t exactly a fault of the skill. But more that the meta has moved beyond them due to the fact that there are more methods of dealing with things like immob than there used to be…ALOT more. But then skills get left behind in the meta all the time. Remember when empathetic bond was considered mandatory?

Third. Ancient seeds is already an EXTREMELY powerful trait in PvP. Enough so that nearly every druid build uses it. Its obviously not under performing. Even if the enemy breaks out of it they burned a cooldown to do so.

Entangle is in a less alright position. Thats due to the fact that it has a cast time where ancient seeds procs immediately on you hitting a target. That means that there is time for entangle to be blocked/dodged/blinded where as ancient seeds by its very nature CAN’T be.

Yes you can get high condi reduction. But hey you can get high condi DURATION as well if you were bothered to. If there going to put in the traits,sigils,food to counter you and you aren’t willing to do the same then thats your own kitten fault. The tools are there for you to use. If they have no synergy with your build. Then you need to take another look at what your trying to do.

Shadowstep Blink and Teleport are all cooldowns that you forced an enemy to burn. If immobilizing them was your only trick then again. You need to look at what your doing. You were probably going to lose that fight anyway. EVERY skill is meant to be counterable. Its how the game works. When something doesn’t have a counter is when there is a problem.

Does immob have too many counters? Hell if I know I am not on the balance team. But then neither are you.

The rest of your post is irrelevant. And was just a way for you to vent out your frustrations using me as a target. Don’t really appreciate it but hey as long as you feel better. Ill go ahead and address them.

First. The profession IS interesting to play for many people. So I am not sure where your leading with that.

Second. The swords BIGGEST strength is its ability to stick to its target and deal high single target dps. Which is the very thing that some rangers hate. But for years its been considered a l2p issue. Most people turn off the auto cast and seem to be doing just fine. But then its not a meta PvP weapon for other reasons.

Third. Yeah the axe is bad except in VERY niche builds/situations heres hoping for changes in the future. Its problems however have nothing to do with the rest of this post though.

Four. There are other condi clear options. Evasive Purity is AWESOME. The druid line also has several really good methods. Shouts with trooper runes lets you strip pretty much anything except a condi bomb. Infact Trooper runes + evasive purity gives you enough to clear just about ANY control conditions youl get nailed with or even most damaging condis. None of those are in the WK line.

Five. Speaking of shouts with trooper runes thats what I used to get to legendary and also what ive been playing most of the time for 3 years now. Worked pretty kitten well on anything that wasn’t a tempest. Search and Rescue is terrible on its current cooldown but the others worked fine its trait version (Natures Aid i think?) is also commonly used. Protect Me is getting its rework and at least for now it SEEMS like its rework will be fine. Not sure where you were going with this anyway.

If youd brought up the shouts before HoT I might of agreed with you (but they fixed sic em and are working on protect me…im gonna wait and see on how S&R turns out and if they do anything to Guard)…oh wait before HoT was when almost every ranger was running Entangle…huh.

@Floplag ahh I read the tone of your post wrong. My apologies for that.

Floplag.4032:

Sure, take all damage from all pets and leave only the supplemental abiltities such as heal, knopckdown, bleed etc… and bump the ranger itself by the same amount? Hows that?

As a Ranger i hate relying on AI for any portion of my damage, id rather the pets be buff bots, and apply supplemental things based on my damage and power, not their own.

Though i think most people would hate that just as much

See thats the thing. There are other rangers that enjoy having the pet be more than a CC bot. I for one LIKE having more than one damage source because it lets me work around an opponents active defense as long as I am good enough to take advantage of openings (have your pet pop another rangers counter attack while you land a halt bash immediately after…or having a pet hit a DH from behind while hes facing you while his forward block skill is active). If they were just utility bots. Then they would be even more meaningless than most of them are now in my opinion.

Any build that countered the rangers primary build would win by default. Where as now you can use the pet to fight against builds that counter your core body. A bit of CC or healing wouldn’t do much to stop that if they cant apply pressure.

The reason the smokescale and bristleback are so popular is because they apply reliable pressure to an opponent. Before them it was the bird family. Because ultimately those were more usefull than a CC that might not even DO anything. I don’t see how them applying a buff would be any different than the occasional fear. They would have to be REALLY strong buffs. Which would ultimately mean that only 1-2 pet families would be taken because the others would be meaningless. Exactly as we have now.

Edit: And you can bet your kitten theyd get nerfed because someone in the PvP forum didn’t like that we got some purely passive benefit just for slotting a pet. The only reason they WOULDN’T whine would be if the buffs were weak. Meaning it would just be a downgrade from what we have now. (Note I don’t agree with this mentality and I hate when people push for changes based on it. But I have been in these forums enough to know that it will probably happen)

Err its plenty strong in 1v1s. And it loses strength in team fights. That actually seems pretty fine to me. It has counterplay and yet when that counterplay isn’t met its effective enough to cause death. Seems to me thats how MOST skills in this game should be.

LughLongArm.5460:

Shadelang.3012:

ItIsFinished.9462:

Shadelang.3012:

bloodpyrope.8630:

EnderzShadow.2506:

Eurantien.4632:

Given its a stunbreak, has no tell, and a lower cd protect me is better because of how tanky bristle back and smoke scale are. Only drawback is point capture but you can cancel protect me so that shouldn’t be an issue. Of course this will all change on the 26th.

What’s going to change?

Protect Me – Now will break stun on nearby allies, giving you protection and cause the next foe that attack you to be taunted by your pet.

Not sure if they’re adding these onto the old Protect me, or if this is what the new Protect me will be from now on.

It SOUNDED like an addition. Usually when its a heavy rework they mention it. And I didn’t hear any of the wording theyv used to describe them in the past. However anythings possible >.<

I have a feeling it’s replacing the Shouts current function. Because giving the caster Protection is redundant if it negates all raw damage. Unless it works in such a way that the 33% damage reduction goes towards the reduction in the pets health as well.

What your saying is true. Atm all damage taken by the pet is (Through Protect Me) “True” damage. Meaning it ignores all toughness and boons. Its just the pure raw damage you would have taken.

On that note if it becomes just protection, aoe stun break, and a taunt. It isn’t really a buff. Oh itl work better in certain circumstances. But it will also fail COMPLETELY in others. Won’t do anything against a condi reaper for example. Or even a warrior with stab. Or a thief that just used steal while you have rampage as one going. Theres alot of situations where the skill would actually have 0 benefit. So I kinda hope your wrong. Because it would push protect me into a rather tiny niche into who it is actually beneficial to use against.

Especially since the wording they used implied it would only taunt ONE person throughout the duration. It is kind of worrisome. Protection up time after all isn’t exactly anything rangers have had a problem with. Sure we don’t have it up 100% of the time. But we usually have it more than long enough barring boon strips and boon steals.

On that note. If it DOES work the way your saying. Then hopefully it will infact get rid of the “causing the pet to do NOTHING for 6 seconds” as well as getting a lower cooldown.

If its a replacement instead of an addition. And it still cancels upon giving the pet an order. Then Im going to have an issue with it haha.

This spesific build actually lack protaction as it probably using MM/BM/DRUID , the updated protect me offers somthing different to SoS which still a viable option. The pet doing nothing and taking damage thing(and breaks on command) is very unreliable and doesnt stand heat of SPVP, i think the new version is much better and more consistent. In the examples you gave like “condi reapler” also the old protect me(or even SoS) wont help much, we have other condi defences., if anything the taunt will do more vs condi fights compared to the nothing of the old protect me did.

Like I said im not disagreeing entirely. And I do admit that the specific build in the OP would benefit from this is likely. Im thinking in more general terms across the ranger class.

I will say. We have no guarantees that it has actually been reworked to get rid of the clunkiness involved in using it. Ill be waiting till the 26th to make any final decisions on it. Assuming the new form is better isn’t something im willing to do until I can actually test it in combat myself. Im also not assuming its worse mind you.

As far as condi reapers go I was more worried about the taunt and protection uptime. However Condi reapers do typically run carrion making protect me useful for avoiding damage on certain skills with high base damage. You are correct that it doesn’t stop the condi damage. But it wasn’t exactly useless either lets be fair here. Misleading arguments gets us nowhere. However the new form a condi reaper can actually completely negate. Through stab and a boon corrupt.

But really its a moot point. What I was trying to get at was that the old version unless you misused it always did SOMETHING however minimal. The new version (If its a replacement instead of an addition) actually has a chance of doing nothing.

If you have read any of my posts in previous threads you will know I flat out agree with you that protect me needs to be reworked to no longer cancel and to allow the pet to attack. Thats a must have in my book. Your right that its quirky. I recenetly finished going from amber to legendary only using a Non Druid shout ranger build. I know exactly how this skill works and the situations in which it collapses.

Calling it unreliable however is false. It was perfectly reliable. It always did the exact same thing in a set of circumstances. Caused the pet to stop attacking for 6 seconds and transfers damage you would have taken to it. Is that a good thing? No. It needs change. But its not like the skill was bugged. It was just implemented poorly in relation to its competition and its place in the PvP scene. Did it have a higher learning curve than its competition? Oh HELL Yes. Knowing when to use it and not to use it (Will this hurt me more than help me in the long term) was massive and required you to recognize kitten near exactly how much damage you were about to take.

Also there isn’t actually any guarantee that its the old version or a new version. These changes still could quite possibly be an addition to. Making this convo pointless.

Also this has stepped pretty far away from the OP >.< sorry about that. If you want to continue this ill probably make a thread on the skill when its released based on my views after testing it out a bit.

ItIsFinished.9462:

Shadelang.3012:

bloodpyrope.8630:

EnderzShadow.2506:

Eurantien.4632:

Given its a stunbreak, has no tell, and a lower cd protect me is better because of how tanky bristle back and smoke scale are. Only drawback is point capture but you can cancel protect me so that shouldn’t be an issue. Of course this will all change on the 26th.

What’s going to change?

Protect Me – Now will break stun on nearby allies, giving you protection and cause the next foe that attack you to be taunted by your pet.

Not sure if they’re adding these onto the old Protect me, or if this is what the new Protect me will be from now on.

It SOUNDED like an addition. Usually when its a heavy rework they mention it. And I didn’t hear any of the wording theyv used to describe them in the past. However anythings possible >.<

I have a feeling it’s replacing the Shouts current function. Because giving the caster Protection is redundant if it negates all raw damage. Unless it works in such a way that the 33% damage reduction goes towards the reduction in the pets health as well.

What your saying is true. Atm all damage taken by the pet is (Through Protect Me) “True” damage. Meaning it ignores all toughness and boons. Its just the pure raw damage you would have taken.

On that note if it becomes just protection, aoe stun break, and a taunt. It isn’t really a buff. Oh itl work better in certain circumstances. But it will also fail COMPLETELY in others. Won’t do anything against a condi reaper for example. Or even a warrior with stab. Or a thief that just used steal while you have rampage as one going. Theres alot of situations where the skill would actually have 0 benefit. So I kinda hope your wrong. Because it would push protect me into a rather tiny niche into who it is actually beneficial to use against.

Especially since the wording they used implied it would only taunt ONE person throughout the duration. It is kind of worrisome. Protection up time after all isn’t exactly anything rangers have had a problem with. Sure we don’t have it up 100% of the time. But we usually have it more than long enough barring boon strips and boon steals.

On that note. If it DOES work the way your saying. Then hopefully it will infact get rid of the “causing the pet to do NOTHING for 6 seconds” as well as getting a lower cooldown.

If its a replacement instead of an addition. And it still cancels upon giving the pet an order. Then Im going to have an issue with it haha.

bloodpyrope.8630:

EnderzShadow.2506:

Eurantien.4632:

Given its a stunbreak, has no tell, and a lower cd protect me is better because of how tanky bristle back and smoke scale are. Only drawback is point capture but you can cancel protect me so that shouldn’t be an issue. Of course this will all change on the 26th.

What’s going to change?

Protect Me – Now will break stun on nearby allies, giving you protection and cause the next foe that attack you to be taunted by your pet.

Not sure if they’re adding these onto the old Protect me, or if this is what the new Protect me will be from now on.

It SOUNDED like an addition. Usually when its a heavy rework they mention it. And I didn’t hear any of the wording theyv used to describe them in the past. However anythings possible >.<

Eurantien.4632:

Given its a stunbreak, has no tell, and a lower cd protect me is better because of how tanky bristle back and smoke scale are. Only drawback is point capture but you can cancel protect me so that shouldn’t be an issue. Of course this will all change on the 26th.

Prob shouldn’t forget to mention that it causes the pet to stop attacking for the duration. Its a pretty big effect of the skill. And having the pet attack again will cancel the damage transfer. Unless like you said they will change that on the 26th.

Popping protect me at the wrong time can cost you long term so its got a bit of a bigger learning curve than SoS. The upcoming taunt though is making it look pretty good atleast for 1v1s. SoS will (I Believe) still be the go to for team fights though I think though most rangers run druid for side node fighting so that isn’t something that comes up often I suppose.

I do personally like it more that SoS though because its “smoother” as far as in combat use goes. (really easy to dance in and out of protect me).

MidoriMarch.8067:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WLZppw3QMAk&rdm=1us9zu6t2&client=mv-google

For those of u saying that ranger is in bad state and needs buff should seriously quit the game.
Check the video above and see how cheesy easy mode and lame playstyle that druid has.
all he does in the video just runs kite and massive heal repeat rotation and his pet doing all the work. And no dont compare thief to ranger because thief require skills at least to play effective and more likely d/p and s/d are the only competible weapon set.

Err. the conversation kinda evolved past that point midori >.< sorry we couldn’t really take you seriously. This post doesn’t help. One mans skill is another mans cheese. In archeage archers were convinced there playstyle was the epitome of skill and that mages were cheese. The other side though it was the other way around. Edit: and in the mean time all the melee fighters were crying in a corner.

Same kitten here really. Thief is underpowered atm. Everyone knows it. Wait till after its buffed to compare the two man. Your getting some heavy damage increases in the future. If thief gets to the point where it can 2-3 shot near every other “meta” build will you be admitting that its brainless then like your accusing the druid of being? Or will you claim that its due to the thieves own skill and that the other players should just l2P.

Also I don’t think anyone was saying it was in a bad state and needed buffs. Which leads me to believe you aren’t really reading peoples posts here. If anything people are arguing against nerfs not FOR buffs. The only buffs we really want is for all our OTHER pets to be useful in the current meta. Then we wouldn’t have to rely on the smokescale or bristleback.

@Lugh

I fully understand what you mean by both the likely nerf and what your saying about the elite specs and likelyhood of rebalancing.

On the mechanic concept you were talking about with an altered guard mechanic I can see where your going with improving non Bristle/smoke pets. I just don’t feel that its going to happen anytime soon. Whats pushing the birstleback and smokescale so far ahead in PvP isn’t even there damage. Its that that they are a dozen times more reliable than ANY other pet in there archetypes. Bristleback attacks track better than any other ranged pets and they have higher range as well. Smokescales have a gap closer that actually MEANS something as well as defensive tools to let them survive staying close. As well as application of damage that actually MATTERS (this is more important than the damage that they actually do) Even if these two pets get destroyed. People will still probably use them. Simply because there just better designed than anything else we have got with mobile combat in mind. When a canine can stick to a target and survive in melee as well as a smokescale. Then ill probably use it again since I miss my dual wolves. However as it is now. It is just so hard to justify taking them no matter how much I want to. And frankly the new pets are a big part of whats keep base line ranger relevant in the current combat scene. Though we will have to see if that changes with the patch.

As for the cancel built into shouts getting removed. They did that with sic em. But doing that with guard and protect me would be pretty big changes. It would getting rid of the placement effect of guard entirely. Making it a totally different skill in concept if not practice. And protect me would need to no longer cause the pet to stop attacking. Something I have been arguing for for an extremely long time now. I doubt Ill see it.

I would argue that barkskin for the pet only WOULD see play. But only if players learned to attack the pets. Then there would actually be a noticeable difference in combat between a pet focused playstyle and a ranger focused playstyle. Also my opinion is rather biased as I AM using the pet focused playstyle for the profession.

savacli.8172:

Shadelang.3012:

/snip

TLDR; The bristleback itself isn’t OP. It has low enough defensive stats that killing it SHOULD be an option just as all dangerous pets are meant to have (Like cats). However druid synergy with the WK trait bark skin makes that very difficult. As a druid equipped with this minor trait can infact keep there pet alive almost indefinitely simply through self healing up to the threshhold the moment the pressure swaps from them to there pets. In other words there toolset is very well designed towards maintaining there burst machine. Where it SHOULD be possible to break that machine as part of an opposing players strategy.

I….I understand the world now O.O

I guess it WAS a bit long winded >.< sorry about that.

Forum bugged out massively for me there. Sorry for anyone that saw it.

LughLongArm.5460:

Shadelang.3012:

To continue on my above post. Moving the functionality of Bark Skin to Guard as I suggested above in order to lower the survivability of pets that SHOULD be killable would have a couple effects.

First. It would force a player taking guard to chose between higher dmg from there pet or higher survivability. As guard cancels once you press the F2 firing the skill would actually leave it more open to damage. Like swapping from a defensive stance to an offensive once. Meaning that when the pet is firing would actually be a golden opportunity to kill it.

Second. It would put the survivability of the pet into a seperate mechanic apart from a druids self healing. Meaning that the benefit a druid and ranger would gain from this effect would be identical. Causing its worth to be balanced between the ranger and the druid. Meaning it could be further balanced without being held between druid and non druid builds.

It would also mean that druids (or rangers) that wanted to maintain there bristleback under DIRECT pressure would have to give up a utility slot. Something that only a few players would be willing to do.

Infact this would go further to support pet based builds than any other. A playstyle that has been incredibly weak since the death of the cruise missile pet builds.

Hi, don’t like your guard idea at all.
1)In order to solve a problem you first need to prove that a problem exists. Even with bark skin, bristleback melts in group fights and in 1v1 vs condi players that know what they’r doing.

2)While druids find a place in the meta, i dont see them overpreforming espically in top tier pvp. The amulet changes (celec removal)will reduce some of the “defensive synergie” you were talking about.

3)You dont change trait lines just to deal with one “over preforming” pet.

4)making gaurd = barkskin as an activate button to mintain a passive buff is boring, utilities supposed to be active and scenario based.

5)It will give the BM traitline to much of an adge. Now that protect me seems viable, giving us another defesnive shout will just make BM all in one tait line, as it is probably one of the best offensive traitline with so much defence and utility(best heal and elite) you can skip completly WS(protect me for the protaction, gaurd for bark skin, soldair rune for condi removal).

If you ask me, guard should be a utility that after activation replaces the utility slot with the pet’s special ability, making the pet to preform that skill on activation(with seperate CD) . While not 100% fits thematicly, it will make the skill very interesting and will bring back lots of pets(dogs for KD, drakes for blast, moas for aoe heal, birds for out of combat swiftness, etc….)

Good to see well thought out replies for once. Ill address your points in turn.

1) Whether we think there is a problem or not as the users frankly does not matter. It is largely up to the community to decide if there is a problem or not. We have seen evidence of this in the past. I believe that as it currently stands bristleback will be nerfed into the ground eventually. I’m expecting an eventual reduction of atleast 40% on its f2 damage as well as an increase in cooldown. ANY time where a AI source deals high damage it has been destroyed… In EVERY previous example up to this point. The only exceptions have been when those damage sources practically melt in combat. I have no doubt the pattern will repeat. And I don’t want to get turret engineered. We all know how THAT went.

2) The druid isn’t super over performing against the other meta builds true. However it does preform significantly higher than any non druid ranger build. To put it simply a Druid just has more base potential than a ranger. And as it stands that isn’t going to change. A part of that is how a druid synergises with pets like the birstleback. It becomes a case where they can maintain all 3 dynamics of our combat system. Damage Control and Support. The changes to amulets will not change them. What it WILL do however is when they go for support they have less sustained damage. However the burst damage they get from the bristleback will be identical. And there synergy with barkskin in keeping the bristleback alive will stay exactly the same. Meaning that a druid WILL benefit far more form this minor trait than a ranger ever could. Hell even for a longbow power ranger retaliation is enough to take us under the health threshold leaving our pets vulnerable.

3) But people HAVE changed trait lines to deal with overperforming synergies in the past. In our case it just happens to be our class mechanic. There has been cases of trait lines being altered to change how a class mechanic works. It just hasn’t affected us yet in a massive way. The fact that its a pet has 0 connection in this case. Its a tool just like our weapons.

4) If you read what I said you would realize that this would actually make it MORE active. As the player would have to chose whether or not to use the F2 due to the fact that using said F2 would leave the pet without the bark skin effect.

I have used shouts since the release of the game. And im fairly certain I am the only 5 shout non druid ranger in legendary tier at this time. (Because no one else is stupid enough to go from amber to legendary as a 5 shout non druid ranger >.<)

Guard cancels upon receiving ANY other order. f1-f4 or any other utility shout. Meaning that it would be a toggeled defensive mode. (My pet is in fire so I am going to leave it under guard but once the fire is out im going to activate its f2 leaving it vulnerable to deal more damage). That is a FAR more engaging decision making process than a largely accidental byproduct of a purely passive mechanic. Its ALREADY passive. I wan’t to make it active.

5) The BM traitline having an edge has nothing to do with this change actually. In its new form it would ONLY affect the pet. Meaning it would give no defensive edge to the ranger. Its not like you could use protect me and then cast guard to turn your pet into a super sponge. It would infact cancel it. It would simply become an effective defensive option for your pet in its own right. It would however give a pet based build the tool it needs to maintain the pet under pressure. Which im sure we can agree is necessary. Right now protecting the pet relies heavily on Situational Awareness and luck. Unless your a druid with bark skin. Im not suggesting shout rangers have on demand bark skin for themselves. That would be bloody insane and so horrendously overpowered the mandatory nerfs would gut the mechanic entirely.

Your concept of guard sadly would be useless with most pets. It would only be effective with a few families in fact. Making in inherintly flawed for a pet based utility. Would it bound to the pets base cooldowns? Would it allow you to BYPASS cooldowns? The varying levels of performance there is insane from pet family to pet family. Some would gain massive benifit form it. Others would gain borderline 0. (Why would a shout ranger give a flying kitten about making his bird produce swiftness….hes already got 2 and a half minutes of it).

psizone.8437:

Shadelang.3012:

psizone.8437:

Honestly, I’d rather they buffed the original pets to do the same damage.

Running those pets with Beastmastery makes them feel like an actual contributing factor in my build rather than a utility.

Id like them to be about on the same level as the current Smokescale if I could. But in most cases improving there ability to stick to a target would go a long way. Which is one way that the smokescale is just so kitten superior.

Yup, Smokescale has been amazing. Having a pet that can actually hit a moving target is just too good compared to the old pets.

Aye its one of the reasons im terrified theyl nerf it again. Even if it ends up doing bear level dmg alot of people will still have to take it. Simply because it works better on the mechanical level than any other pet. If only wyverns were like that -.-

psizone.8437:

Honestly, I’d rather they buffed the original pets to do the same damage.

Running those pets with Beastmastery makes them feel like an actual contributing factor in my build rather than a utility.

Id like them to be about on the same level as the current Smokescale if I could. But in most cases improving there ability to stick to a target would go a long way. Which is one way that the smokescale is just so kitten superior.

To continue on my above post. Moving the functionality of Bark Skin to Guard as I suggested above in order to lower the survivability of pets that SHOULD be killable would have a couple effects.

First. It would force a player taking guard to chose between higher dmg from there pet or higher survivability. As guard cancels once you press the F2 firing the skill would actually leave it more open to damage. Like swapping from a defensive stance to an offensive once. Meaning that when the pet is firing would actually be a golden opportunity to kill it.

Second. It would put the survivability of the pet into a seperate mechanic apart from a druids self healing. Meaning that the benefit a druid and ranger would gain from this effect would be identical. Causing its worth to be balanced between the ranger and the druid. Meaning it could be further balanced without being held between druid and non druid builds.

It would also mean that druids (or rangers) that wanted to maintain there bristleback under DIRECT pressure would have to give up a utility slot. Something that only a few players would be willing to do.

Infact this would go further to support pet based builds than any other. A playstyle that has been incredibly weak since the death of the cruise missile pet builds.