Guild Wars 2

/signed Shockwave.1230

I don’t understand what your (ANet) view on balance is.
I don’t understand at what tier of play you are trying to balance.
I don’t understand what your goals are for each class.
I don’t understand what your view on build diversity per class is.
I don’t understand what you’re doing or where you’re going with your PvP.

All I know is that I play and weave my way through your changes, analyze, and adapt.
I do this because you have what could be the best action combat system of any RPG I have every played, and I have fun playing it.

I don’t see a direction though.
I see things that make sense, but I also see things that don’t make sense.
I don’t see your initiative, I don’t see your passion, I’ve felt it missing for too long.
I don’t see you caring about your biggest assets in the PvP scene.
Do you even know what they are? Do you even know what’s most important?

I see you half-assing it. I see your infrequent actions followed by inactivity with intermittent feedback of a tone that you are sure of yourselves, yet I see you going in directions that aren’t getting you or your PvP loyal what they deserve.

Do you see our dedication? Do you see those of us let down? Do you see our interest? Our passion? Do we need to do something better? What are we doing wrong?

I see your front of confidence, but I see you with no direction, and a journey without a direction has only a chance of reaching a desirable destination. Are you going to leave your destination up to RNG?
Do you not care about what you reach, about what you achieve in this domain?

Where is that motivation? Where is that passion?

I’ve seen it in you before. I want it back.

frans.8092:

-snip-
Or maybe that ‘bad’ build wasn’t all that bad.

I’m not saying it was a bad build, maybe relative to builds leading up to its use now it was bad, but with the current meta s/d acro trickery is the best thief build in my opinion.

I’m just highlighting things that other people are saying that I agree with, and the reason I agree with them is a simple concept in math that you can apply when power creep happens.

Let’s say there are numeric values associated with the damage of acro, trickery and critical, trickery.
Acro, trickery is 75
Critical, trickery is 100

Now add in a power creep of 25

Acro, trickery is 100
Critical, trickery is 125

It’s the same effect right? If you look on the surface yes, but when you have a deeper understanding you realize the relative power has changed. So no its not the same impact.

In our examples critical strikes was originally 33% more powerful than acro, now after power creep it’s only 25% more powerful.

But guess what else, only damage was buffed, not toughness or vitality. Dodges were buffed for a lot of current meta builds due to sigil of energy being more usable, so uncoordimated spike damage is less effective bcs dodges neutralize it and they are more common in the meta.

So basically we had a lot of offensive power creep, meta builds that are better at defending against spike damage, cleave has become unreal in the meta (which isn’t all due to the April patch, but it has its impact), and vitality and toughness are the same as before.

So that 75 that wasn’t adequate that made people want to use the 100 from critical strikes is now at 100, which was adequate. Critics strikes is at 125, but because of more dodges, tankier builds with might stacks, and the crazy cleave damage that’s in the game the survivability from acro is more valuable than the damage from critical strikes.

Tl;Dr
Acro trickery wasn’t as effective in the meta before the April patch as critical strikes acro. We know this because people are indicating they tried it, but clearly critical strikes trickery was found to be more valuable as it was heavily used.

frans.8092:

Chicago Jack.5647:

frans.8092:

Runes and sigils do not make a then horrible build top tier now.

Actually it does. Ele was virtually unplayable before the patch. Now, particularly because of the buff to strength runes, D/D ele is seen being played. Denshee plays it in their EU team comp. Top players have said that the strength runes are what was needed to give the D/D ele the “oomph” it needed. It allows the ele to do what it’s best at – an all-rounder class that focuses on consistent damage. This was the role it had before warriors got buffed. A time where everyone complained about eles being an unkillable destruction force.

Now though, they can be better compared to the engie. The engie is similar, but focuses on condition damage.

Ironically, it’s also very good on S/D thieves which preform the same damage-type (consistent damage), but S/D thieves play a different role for the team.

True, but he’s not using Strength. I don’t see much might in his build so I am not sure how it would help his build. S/D doesn’t get a lot of might so Strength doesn’t appear to help it much. Unless it’s duration bonus is applied to stolen Might as well.

Only 1 stack of might is necessary to make strength runes more useful than almost every other direct damage runeset. I have no clue if the might duration works on stolen might, I’d guess it does, but it doesn’t really matter when the profs that do might stacking are getting each stack of might for 30+ seconds from battle and blast finishers.

Between the zerker amulet and strength runes alone with a 50% fury uptime from TotC, prior to taking might stacks you’re looking at around a 15% increase in damage overall from what the OP was saying the build would be capable of a year ago.

When also taking into account sigil of air, which procs every 3-4 seconds and being able to combine that with fire which procs every 5-6 seconds, as opposed to only fire like prior to the april patch, and you’re looking at a further increase in damage the build is capable of.

I’ve seen other people pointing out that the build lacked damage, and sizer just happens to be the notable person that took advantage of the power creep introduced in the april patch and combined it with the 2/0/0/6/6 spread while also being on the team that won the ToL.

Were the passives on signets buffed at some point too? I recall conjures had stats added for passives.

frans.8092:

scabrous.7835:

Was it horrible and not viable back then? – Yes.
Is it good now? – Yes.

Game didn’t change that much. meaning your earlier qualification as ‘horrible’ was not quite accurate.

Just a quick summary of some of the changes people have mentioned for fyi purposes:

• Non-ferocity builds have 10% more crit damage when using berserker’s amulet since the april patch (this is free damage for s/d acro that it previously didn’t have)
• Strength runes (provide 3+ might stacks as a fight progresses on, and perma 7% damage buff). Strength runes also make might more readily available for stealing.
• Cleave wasn’t quite as strong in the meta, so the higher damage thief builds stood out more.
• Sigil changes add more damage overall to all builds (this impacts s/d acro)

It’d be neat if you could trigger the bonfire mf buff if you cycle through enough of them to trigger a level up past max mf, kind of like how you still get skill points when you level up past 80.

Just a thought, I’m trying to appease ANet and Duelers with this idea, but the idea at a high level is a simple concept.

Simply allow 2 players to request a duel with each other, take the players to a duel instance, and when the duel starts leave behind in the map they were in some kind of interactable object for interested parties to spectate on the duel (information indicating who is dueling and the professions they are, or other useful information). After the duel is over provide some kind clear indicator for the winner/loser such as the victor coming back alive and the loser coming back in the down state.

I think this would get around objections ANet has about implementing dueling, assuming the objections are along the lines of the things that I think they are.

I think this would also be enough to satisfy the player base that is clammoring for dueling.

Discuss.

*Added
It would also be REALLY COOL if ANet could make the Arena an instance of the area the duel request happens in. Some kind of personal story like instance with a fair radius size.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Shockwave.1230:

[…]which at the time was a seemingly odd one to make as a thief[…]

Lux.7169:

Pretty funny how paradigms shift.

It wasn’t odd, and it wasn’t a dramatic change in S/D. Strength runes got buffed, so this build became viable – it’s as simple as that. Beforehand, it lacked damage. Now it is an effective way to deal with builds that rely on strength runes by stealing strength, and also is supplemented with strength runes from the thief him/herself.

Not odd to you it sounds like. Just odd to the meta.

I think this would be an interesting choice as an elite skill. It doesn’t see use as a normal utility, because thieves need to utilize their utilities for survivability in the meta and taking this skill as a utility really impacts survivability in a way that you have to build towards Assassin’s Signet in order to make the tradeoff worthwhile. I would use this skill if it were elite though, it’d be an interesting alternative to basilisk venom trading a CC for more damage.

OP mentions invulnerable stomps can’t be countered.

They can be. Thief and Mesmer and Ele have their down skill 2. Also thief, Mesmer, and engineer can stealth downed targets making them immune to stomps. Also quick response strategies like Ranger elite, engi elixir, mercy rune rezing, warbanner , etc. All Counter invulnerable stomps.

I saw someone say they’d want to view asura as thier normal size in PvP. If people would like to play with this disadvantage and it would be a blocking point, then give them an option to play with the disadvantage.

Upsizing Asura and Downsizing Norn/Charr sound like the best option, because a lot of the community is concerned about their skins. It would be unfair to just say that Charr, Asura, and to a much much lesser extent the Norn are out of luck by changing character models to humanoids.

That said it would show people ANet is taking PvP seriously if they normalized all character models in PvP.

Like I said though, I think the best option is to resize charr, norn, and asura. You see different character models in other esport games from LoL to Halo, so I don’t think it’d be that big a deal.

Why not use the P/D weaponset. It’s already a meta condi build, and brings bleeds and torment.

In regard to the OP, if you’re curious as to why it’s called Sizer’s build, it’s a pretty simple formula.

The stage it was used (ToL) +
The recency it had been observed as a meta build (never?/forever ago?) +
The Results it Produced (Winning ToL) +
It’s effectiveness (easy to play, low risk, high reward) +
The player the above happened through (Sizer)

Whether or not you feel it’s unfair or fair that the build is referred to as Sizer’s is irrelevant, because the above are true and people have respect for those things and are therefore showing respect to Sizer and giving him credit for both his build choice, which at the time was a seemingly odd one to make as a thief, and the results he and his team produced with the build and thier comp.

Sizer’s build is an ‘evade tank’, it’s got a lot of evades that provide a lot of sustain. It also offers perma vigor. Between signet of agility, feline grace, and perma vigor you can literally dodge 6 times in a row. On top of that you have evades from flanking strike and withdraw. You also can evade via teleports. You have Slight of Hand too, and basi venom, for 2 interrupst. You have 3000 more health than any non-acro thief build, it’s basically as close as it gets to a bunker thief.

Combine all the above defenses with with a Berserker’s amulet and you have a pretty rediculous build on paper (I think it could be tiered on the level of Soldier’s Strength Rune Hambow Warrior and Celestial Strength Rune D/D Ele). I think it’s the thief’s best build honestly, but choose not to run it because I feel like having that many dodges and evades with that much damage and mobility isn’t an intended playstyle, so I don’t want to get used to it only to have it nerfed in the future and feel like I was playing with a crutch.

Lamuness.3570:

For S/D vs. D/P matchup, I feel like most S/D just stick to my face and try to LoS me by running behind me while cleaving all over the place. I generally get dropped before I have any opportunity to set up anything, even if I’m standing inside BPS. How do you deal with that/them? Also, Immob on demand, gets me into trouble most of the time.

I’ve been running D/P in sPvP for a long time, with inconsistent success. From the list you’ve put up of favorable matches, it sounds like we’re just designed to take out other glass classes lol.

I am currently running 2/6/0/0/6, I’ve been running 5/6/0/0/3 for a while and you do get to drop enemies faster, but the loss of boon stealing is not worth it in my case. Stealing 15stacks of might from an ele / guardian / warrior makes up for it.

A Blackpowder Field will only defend against about half the attacks when they teleport in. You’ll also find Sigils triggering on you. Deal with them by interrupting them with Basi or steal, and use stealth to land backstab, use your teleports when they teleport away. As soon as you are fightning near their leash post (what I call the little circle they leave behind when they teleport) you have an even larger advantage than what D/P already offers. Occasionally you’ll fall because they can get the jump on you from range, but once it’s close fighting and they can’t teleport away, it’s pretty much over (my experience at least when I don’t screw up).

In my experience yes, all currently viable thief builds are that way. Sword builds have more success against Mesmers is the main difference in glass cannon matchups. In general from what I’ve seen, we’re good against glass bad against bunkers in 1v1s (but can win in drawn out 1v1s, but is it worth it? Most of the time no.)

I can never get might from ele’s when I steal. They have too many simulatenous boons , and it seems like might is a low priority for bountiful theft. Vs Warriors getting might works as long as they only have 2 boons, but they’re usually smart enough to trigger their elite when they build up might stacks.

Shockwave.1230:

For D/D ele I totally forgot about cantrip regen condi clearing via traits. I need to check into what the priority is for that condi removal between Poison, blind, and chill.

Good news for D/P thieves, bad news for D/D ele’s is that Mistform is bugged so that it doesn’t remove a condi when it triggers Soothing Disruption and Cleansing Water.

Lightning Flash removes the first condi applied between poison and chill, which means when you mug and connect Ice Shard Stab poison will be removed by lightning flash.

Armor of Earth seems to have a reverse priority of what Lightning Flash does.

So even though I was completely wrong about ele’s having no condi removal once they leave water, it makes sense now why chilling them after they leave water has been so effective for me. Besides the bug and condi priority oddities, there’s also the long cool downs for cantrips that give some more benefit to D/P v D/D ele.

For D/D ele I totally forgot about cantrip regen condi clearing via traits. I need to check into what the priority is for that condi removal between Poison, blind, and chill.

I have to agree that pvp is not a focus when obvious imbalances exist such as highly effective passive damage and passive builds. When cleave damage is so strong that effective single target damage builds are on the edge of extinction that should raise some red flags. There’s more than these couple mentions to discuss.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Well done post Shockwave. You seem to understand the strengths and weaknesses of d/p well. Though I would put d/d ele somewhere closer between even matchups and poor matchups. The amount of burst healing a d/d ele can achieve is pretty incredible. They have quite a bit of sustain. On the other hand, fresh air S/D ele is as paper as a full signet thief, and the fresh air S/D gets punished severely for its greater burst potential.

In general, I also believe that a D/P spec should be able to compete with an S/D spec. In fact I think it’s more of an uphill battle for the S/D instead of the D/P.

Thanks. D/D ele’s I’m sure have a higher skill cap than what I’ve been facing most of the time. But the trick vs them is to use the steal bundle after they swap out of water to chill them and keep them from going back into water for as long as possible. They Don’t have a condi removal once they get out of water unless they are using ER as their heal.

I feel S/D has a disadvantage vs D/P 1v1, shadow shot pretty much neutralizes any positioning advantage from infiltrator’s strike/return unless LoS is involved. You just need to save infiltrator’s signet for when that LoS is utilized. Also if you don’t have infiltrator’s signet off cool down for LoS. Shortbow 5 + steal + SB 2 can be a good alternative to get around corners.

Though a match isn’t allowing an extended 1v1 very frequently, which is why the higher sustained dps and cleave of Sword as well as its defenses will tend to fit a team comp better.

Maugetarr.6823:

Ah, I didn’t think about the precision/ferocity side of it. Including the power increase, you lose 10% damage with the change, but dagger training makes up half that difference, then the might stacks bring up the rest of that, but I get where you’re coming from on it.

I decided to test your build out and compare it to the 5/6/0/0/3 I’ve been running. Backstabs are doing 12%-13% less and my crit chance is @ 55% max with fury while using 5/0/0/3/6. With the build I’m running currently I’m hitting 6400 backstabs when I crit on the light armor golem, whereas the other build is averaging 5700 when I crit on the Golem. I also have 81% max crit chance with the 5/6/0/0/3 with traits and fury, so the disparity in DPS over time is probably more than 20% before even considering Executioner.

Liberis.9573:

Any news or updates on this issue?

The answer we want to hear is that you are looking into it, it’s a top priority item, and it will be deployed to production as soon as it’s ready.

Uploaded today. He must be coming out of retirement again

Maugetarr.6823:

Well, you lose executioner, but you don lose 20% of your damage. Comparing it to a 2/6/0/0/6 build, you have +200 base power and dependable +10% damage from exposed weakness versus initial strikes (subjectively dependable). So with a base power of 2300 (rounding) versus 2100, you’re getting about a 9.5% increase in your base damage which is constant throughout the fight. Also, the dodges play an important role in building might stacks in addition to keeping you alive. In a short fight with stealing and the subsequent dodges and procs from Sigil/Rune of Strength, you can quickly build up around 10 stacks.

Anyway, if it’s not your cup of tea, that’s fine, but I found it to be an interesting new twist on it.

I also lose out on the ferocity and precision if I choose to go that route, which is what I was primarily referring to. But yeah, not my preference.

I don’t find myself wishing I had more dodges. Losing over 20% of my overall damage isn’t worth it to me to be able to dodge 50% times as often.

Depends, are you good enough to avoid CC? Is there a mesmer with insta CC skills? Does your team comp need you to be more mobile or tankier?

If you’re worried about CC take Shadowstep. If you can get away with 1 CC then take agility.

If your team comp needs mobility take Shadowstep. If your team comp needs you to be able to hold a point by yourself then take agility.

Agility will give you more damage and an extra instant condi removal, and allow you fill up your allies’ endurance too. So it all comes down to what your team needs.

The best way to think of a D/P build is like a wavelength of damage. It’s damage comes in packets, but is lower overall than a sword based build. It peaks higher than sword will, but over a couple of seconds a sword build will deal more damage and has better personal survivability. Like all thief builds D/P can be mobile by running shortbow as your alt weapon. So it brings high spike damage and mobility usually.

Because it lacks personal survivability in teamfight scenarios you will be forced to mostly use shortbow, but look for opportunities to switch to D/P for a spike. The challenge is that D/P spike’s are easily countered, because blackpowder puts people on the ready for an incoming spike. It’s more reliable to spike from stealth instead of immediately from black powder, but stealth is bad in teamfights because you’re not pressuring the enemy with damage. So you’ll need to let your team create openings for you to spike immediately from blackpowder in those situations.

Spiking from stealth is always viable 1v1 (unless you need to hold a point), and is okay in 2v2’s. In 3v3’s or greater, stealth sparingly when contributing to the fight. Stealth is useful though for breaking away from fights, and should be done when you rotate. Even though extended duration stealth isn’t good in teamfights find opportunities to do so occasionally. Extended duration stealth in the right moments does apply it’s own kind of pressure to the opposing team psychologically, they may break away thinking you’re trying to +1 somewhere else, which will create a +1 at your current team fight. Or they may think you’re looking for an opportunity to spike so they use some personal defenses unnecessarily. Most of the time the damage pressure lost though is too much of a detriment to warrant using long stealths.

What’s all this mean? It means in conquest D/P isn’t useless, but it’s not exactly viable unless you have a coordinated team specifically building around it. And even then, it’s questionable whether a sword build would be better for the team, because of the extra viability in team fights that comes from the extra personal survivability, how quickly sword makes up the spike difference, the overall higher real dps it does in practical scenarios, and the cleave.

I’ve been playing D/P near exclusively since the balance patch, and just want to share some thoughts about it.

I’ve tried a few incarnations of it via traits:
2/6/0/0/6
5/6/0/0/3
6/6/0/0/2
I haven’t done shadow arts, because stealth is bad during team fights. I don’t like acro, because it doesn’t synergize well with D/P

2/6/0/0/6
This build is my personal favorite. Bountiful Theft and Slight of Hand give a lot of utility. These traits are the differentiating factors for this build compared to the others. Bountiful Theft and Slight of Hand together allow you interrupt stability stomps, plus their individual uses are numerous. BT allows you to take might if the enemy has only 2 or 1 boon. SoH creates openings for you to land a spike, but the 21 second steal recharge gives you access to an additional skill more frequently. The weakness of this build is the same as all the other D/P builds, which is that AoE is going to wreck your day. Cleave is incredibly strong in the game at the moment, and as such you will find very little use in the midst of team fights, and will be better off utilizing shortbow. CC without cooldowns will also mean you’re in trouble.

5/6/0/0/3
This build is in my opinion the most effective, but that could be because it’s what I’ve been playing most recently. While one would think more utility would be better, that’s not necessarily true. This build sacrifices the utility from the trickery line in order to hit harder. It hit’s hard enough that the utility offered by trickery can be offset. You’ll deal about 12-13% more damage with this build, while the enemy is above 50%, which doesn’t sound like a lot, but the reality is that you push people below 50% more quickly in order to start triggering Executioner. This D/P build suffers from the same weaknesses as any D/P build, AoE and CC without cooldowns spells the end for you.

6/6/0/0/2 (Panic Strike)
The differentiating factor for this build, is you sacrifice initiative cap and therefore some damage out of First Strikes for a 5 second immobilize once Executioner starts triggering. It hits just as hard as the other Deadly Art’s heavy build and suffers from the same weaknesses.

6/6/0/0/2 (Revealed Training)
Revealed Training will allow you to deal about 9-10% additional damage than the 5/6/0/0/3 build, while you are revealed. You land the revealed training with backstab by triggering mug during the cast time of backstab. It hits like a truck, but you can spec heavily into signets in order to land 10k+ backstabs (before executioner and vs base 916 toughness) to sacrifice most utility for all out damage. This causes you to deal about 40% more damage than the 5/6/0/0/2 spec while revealed and 16 stacks of might is active, but going all in for that 1 spike, isn’t necessarily that useful to a coordinated team.

D/P Matchups – My opinion on matchups

Favorable matchups – Will win most of the time quickly
- Anything glass other than a Guardian, Mesmer, or Thief

Even matchups – Stalemate, split wins, kill will take a bit
- Celestial D/D Elementalist
- Trickery S/D Thief
- Berserker’s Hambow Warrior
- Most ranger builds
- Shatter mesmers (People think thief hard counters mesmers, but from my experience I only notice that with S/X builds)

Poor matchups – Will lose most of the time, forced to flee, takes too long to get the kill
- Any bunker
- Soldier’s Hambow Warrior
- Minion Master Necro
- Any engineer build other than glass direct damage
- PU mesmers
- Phantasm Mesmers
- Condi Mesmers
- Acro S/D Thief
- DPS guardian

The OP’s issue still isn’t clear. How does point blank range make life blast harder to hit? Point blank gives you less time to dodge.

The challenge and the combat system.

In PvE if you want to, you can build a solid tank, except vs some 1 shot mechanics. S/P + Signet of Malice + Invigorating Precision.

In order to survive 1 shot skills, you’d need to spec into a lot of vitality.

It’s a really boring build concept, but amusing to play occassionally. You just spam pistol whip to deal damage and evade, if you do get hit Malice and IP heal you up immediately.

Y’all should put the spec/specs that you feel are in the profession to the tier you have it listed under.

For example, I’d say S/D Thief is S tier, while D/P is A tier

From your past experience, very little is transferrable to PvP. Your mechanical skills are for sure, but other than that some dueling experience is really all that will carry over. PvP also has better quality players in terms of fighting other players than PvE or WvW do (they’re probably better than you are atm). There’s a lot you’ll need to learn.

Watch some tournament play, warriors are a very strong class.

The answer to your question lies in part with what you are comfortable with and not comfortable with.

I can confidently tell you that S/D is the easiest to play, but beyond that S/P and D/P are going to be fairly close in their difficulty though they do different things. D/D and P/P are largely not viable.

Solstice.1097:

Avead.5760:

@Solstice
So you think that celestial is too strong and then you suggest a reduction of less than 1/3 of what a might stack gives??
To me that sounds like you think celestial is fine
I think the amulet is fine.It specialise in nothing and it just doesnt suck balls..So nowyou cant go “too wrong” with it which is entirely differnt than it being the best choice.

celestial was just a side note at the end of my comment. I feel it is relevant because celestial + strength is the solution for all those class builds that once had to decide whether to be damage based or survivability based and now they are both. Without strength runes I would not run celestial due to lack of DPS… I’d just run soldier or berserker and have to decide whether to be tanky or DPS, like I should have to.

Your point is somewhat justified.

Celestial gives 434 to all stats.

25 stacks of might gives 875 to power and condition damage.

The results of this combination is (without trait/rune/sigil bonuses):
Power – 2225
Toughness – 1350
Vitality – 1350
Crit Chance – 25%
Crit Damage – 179%
Condition Damage – 1309
Healing Power – 434

If you look at Berserker’s by itself (before trait/rune/sigil bonuses):
Power – 1838
Toughness – 916
Vitality – 1344
Crit Chance – 35%
Crit Damage – 180%
Condition Damage – 0
Healing Power – 0

If you look at Rabid by itself (before trait/rune/sigil bonsues):
Power – 916
Toughenss – 1559
Vitality – 916
Crit Chance – 35%
Crit Damage – 150%
Condition Damage – 922
Healing Power – 0

For professions that can maintain 25 stacks of might due to the 45% increase in duration. If you look at what would happen if these professions didn’t have the duration increase or extra 3 might stacks from strength runes 4 spec, it will reduce the duration by nearly 1/3 and 3 stacks. This means they would maintain about 15 stacks of might perminantly. If we look at the celestial might combination at 15 stacks we see the stats at:
Power – 1875
Toughness – 1350
Vitality – 1350
Crit Chance – 25%
Crit Damage – 179%
Condition Damage – 959
Healing Power – 434

That’s a difference in power and condi stats of 350. To illustrate what that actually means, it’s the equivalent of going 7 deep into a trait line (max is 6 of course). Of course beyond the impact of 10 might stacks, strength runes also add 175 power like all power runes (but that is less important in our comparison), and the other bonus of the strength rune is the near perminent 7% buff in damage.

So in laymans terms, the impact of strength runes when maximized can be equated to 350 power/350 condition damage from might bonuses + 175 power + 7% damage increase. It’s well known that power is the best scaling damage stat, and when combined with celestial + fury, you get a perfect storm of statistical bonuses.

I don’t believe I’ve seen any other runes that can provide an 875 stat increase and increase damage overall by 7%. In terms of classification by tier, I think you could put rune of strength on the so called ‘god’ tier.

Hype.8032:

Thieves NEED strength runes to be relevant…. any nerf to this runeset should come with a thief buff. I agree that we should have more rune diversity though.

Thieves do not need this rune. S/D acro thieves need this rune or their damage is too low to be relevant.

At some point shaving strength runes will result in pirate rune being clearly superior.

Jasher.6580:

I do not run rune of strength and I disagree with the OP. I think Elementalists are at a good spot with that rune. Without the rune, they will be weaker than they currently are which will put them at a disadvantage again.

Also, I do not play an Elementalist or a Warrior.

If you’re of the opinion an ele is fine with might stacks why not suggest buffing ele’s personal might stacking, while nerfing the runes?

I’m only okay with Illusions on a shatter Mesmer. Building for tankier phantasms is something I have a lot of contempt towards.

Thumper turret I especially dislike for the reasons initially mentioned. The shorter duration and less impact A I has in a match the happier I am.

There’s some sweeping power creep rune changes introduced. Nerfing rune of strength will cause more people to go balthazar and pirates. Really we just need to go through and identify all the obvious runes and nerf them all in one sweep to make them less viable, so other rune sets will be more viable. As it stands though I’m sure ANet already knows what rune sets need nerfed, since I’m assuming they can gather statics on runes being used in PvP over a period of time.

Sigils will need something similar done, Air for example has largely pushed force to the wayside.

Sarrs.4831:

Shockwave.1230:

Like when enemies use them to absorb projectiles if you swap to your ranged weapon? Not even talking about the bubble trait

Body blocking is good play. I don’t think it’s reasonable to try to change it without reducing the skill cap.

I’m very much not a fan of AI in PvP, so if an engi could summon a sandbag wall or something to eat some projectiles for them, I’d feel pretty good about it. It’s that turrets have AI, they last as long as the engi is alive, and aren’t squishy like illusions on a shatter mesmer. I’m largely okay with shatter mesmer builds, the design of AI around that is solid imo, but that’s really the only AI I’m okay with in PvP.

If you’re running sword, there’s very little reason to not run Thieves’ Guild. You have either Flanking Strike or Pistol Whip. You’ll be avoiding damage while dealing damage with both, and you have Infiltrator’s Strike, which is an immob. Immob + Evade is just as good as Stun+Evade.

I personally hate most forms of AI in PvP though, so I have been choosing not to run it. Mesmer illusions in shatter builds are the best form of AI I’ve seen implemented in PvP. Things like Pirate Runes, Ogre Runes, Minions, Spirit Weapons, and Turrets I have a high level of disdain for, because it’s player vs player. It’s supposed to be active vs active, not kite around ranging while my AI kills you. Outplaying someone and them performing just as well in combat as you or at least close to it, because of AI takes so much away from my enjoyment that it’s hard for me to take Queues seriously.

MaXi.3642:

i havent played GW2 for almost half year… spvp forum is still full of the same topics as before half year… sad and only thing we got is a reward system none asked for, changed one farm to another, no rewards for skill and high level play :/

I don’t get the feeling ANet as a company cares about their game in relation to esports, there are some individuals within the company that do, but it doesn’t look like something the company is necessarily concerned with at the top levels. There could be things in motion beneath the surface that would indicate otherwise, but there’s nothing apparant that shows any desire for guild wars 2 pvp to be in competitive esports.

On a serious note, has anyone found a good build on any profession to counter turret engi’s 1v1?

For shortbow 3’s evade you should add that the evade downtime can be canceled with a weaponswap, which gives you the option to dodge and continue the evade or potentially use another skill, (useful also on S/D because you can do SB3 weapon swap S/D3 in order to chain evades if you ever find it necessary)

Bhawb.7408:

I think the only real annoyance about something like this is that the Engi can leave turrets then run all the way across the map and then when you go to cap the point his thief friend shows up and its a 1.5 v 1. Besides that, turrets still have loads of issues of their own.

Like when enemies use them to absorb projectiles if you swap to your ranged weapon? Not even talking about the bubble trait

Lupanic.6502:

Thumper turret has 11k Health. Should not be very difficult to spike it down. The self heal of this turrent is really low. And the turret has a cooldown of 50sec. So this should not be an issue.

Can’t crit them, if I could crit them I’d take them down twice as fast

To clarify the frustration, engi’s are getting smart with their turret builds, and leaving a thumper turret in the middle of points, and the constant cripple every 3 seconds for 3 seconds is a challenge to deal with especially vs speedy kits.

They’re also leaving these on free cap points, which can be frustrating as well since if you try to destroy it you’re losing health and there’s plenty of time for a thief to spike you while you try to wail away on the turret. It’s also not helpful when the engi triggers the overcharge from wherever he is so you are CC’ed when a thief engages.

Is it intended that this turret be destroyable by opposing players or should it just be made invincible?

It’s not that one is better than the other. They do different things.

You run S/D if you’re going for more consistent dps over time with more sustain.

You run D/P if you want spike damage, and the utility of blinds and interrupts.

Which is better depends on your perception of what’s important or the reality of what your team comp needs or both.

If you’re wondering which is easier to play that would be S/D