Guild Wars 2

This is happening seemingly every match for me, where one comp is severely favorable to a lack of timing/coordination.

The basic thing to look at is to stop allowing all the squishies to fall together.

Maybe 1 time in every 5 matches am I getting scores that are both in the 400s I’m talking wins and loses, which other factors are impacting besides comp obviously.

Whatever y’all are doing for matchmaking, take your time to get it right, but if there’s a quick fix that will improve the quality of matches, get that out in a hotfix please.

Full Acro + Agility + Sword Mainhand = Lots of evades

It’s plenty viable. You get to build to be an evade tank

Drakent.9605:

Astralporing.1957:

Drakent.9605:

Astralporing.1957:

Drakent.9605:

I am talking about making out healing more effective not the self healing part

Those two are connected. If you make outhealing more effective, while keeping self healing at the current level, the result would be ridiculously OP. If you increased outhealing, you’d need to decrease self healing to compensate. Which would of course make healers not optional, but necessary. Which is something current combat paradigm specifically doesn’t want.
There are also several other considerations (many of whose were already mentioned in this thread), that sum up to one point: to make healing as useful as you want, the whole combat system would need to be completely gutted and remade from scratch.

If that was truly the case then why anet introduce the outhealing stats on this patch? this just something new they implemented so obviously they felt the need to increase the out source healing, they even buff some of the out healing skill . the changes where just not good enough to make a difference.

. They did it because it was not good enough to make a difference.
Actually, most of the new traits were like that (either just plain bad, or subpar to alternatives).

So you are saying either that the developer don’t know what they are doing and they are just putting useless spell into the game or they are doing it just for kitten and giggles .

Either way make’s no sense to implements a play style into the game that has little use and they just keep adding new thing to it, is just misleading.

As some ppl all rdy mention before either fix it or get rid off it, but don’t keep something broken on the game and just keep adding stuff to it for us to get the wrong impression that is playable

Here’s what people really want to know for this thread. Does the OP want a healing to be strong enough that there is a healer role. If yes, ANet won’t do it. Does OP want healing to be buffed? If yes why? This is not a game with a healer.

BFMV.3198:

Shockwave.1230:

BFMV.3198:

Shockwave.1230:

This skill isn’t used because it’s a bad use of initiative in most situations.

It impacts 2 weapon sets. S/D and D/D. S/D doesn’t need this skill to be viable. D/D is lacking though.

I think best way to change this skill is to make it a 2 part skill with the first option being a block similar to the Ranger GS skill.

The 1st option block skill effect can be numerous things, but the most interesting in my mind is a 100 unit pull that deals no damage so it doesn’t break stealth and can set up Tactical Strike or Backstab.

While the block is channeling, give the player the option to use dancing dagger in its current incarnation.

In order to make an initiative based block fair it would have to not infinitely block projectiles as some other channel block skills do. At most it should block 2 projectile attacks.

Tweaks to death blossom should also be investigated to make D/D more on par with D/P and S/D

Edit:
On second thought instead of a pull I think a port to behind the blocked attacker is way more balanced than a Cc. The port should have a max distance of melee range

I like your idea of a CC for dagger 4. Maybe throw dagger, if it hits, you then get a second skill to pull your foe to you. This creates a crowd control as well as provides diversity in the weaponsets.

CC on initiative is not allowed unless it’s an 8+ initiative skill. 8 second recharge CC’s is still super frequent, that’s why I changed my mind.

1 word. Headshot.
CC on a 4 initiative skill :P.
Plus, the dagger throw actually has to land first to chain into the pull. It wouldn’t just be a 4 initiative scorpion wire. You throw a dagger, then get to pull your foe, so its balanced fine

It’d be a fair counter arguement, if it wasn’t an interrupt only. Unless you consider interrupts to be crowd control. I consider interrupts to be a form of the idea of control, but not crowd control, as positioning isn’t impacted at all.

Fortus.6175:

There is no end to just how broken this class is, 2.4k armor is not enough to mitigate the damage, and to top it off, the thing that truly truly saddens me is the fact that the boon stealing has absolutely no ICD, basicaly any class (namely ele) that relies on boons simply has to bend over and take it.

Most classes have quite the large ICD on boon dispel (note I said boon dispel which is only half as bad as boon stealing, because the opponent doesnt get it), something along the lines between 10 seconds to 60 seconds, but thieves can spam it and leave the ele effectively naked…..

I think a new name for thieves should exist; Spammadiers, since their entire existence revolves around spamming something, whether it is stealth, backstabs, blinds, evades, boon stealing, or sadly, all of the above at the same time.

Someone you’re playing is hacking if they can spam stealth or backstab damage. Revealed prevents this.

They’re also hacking if they can spam blinds forever, because initiative prevents this.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 aren’t problems with any Sword or Dagger main hand set, or the P/D set.

6 is somewhat of an issue on the P/P and D/D sets.

There’s no problems to solve for the class as a whole from that list when they aren’t problems for the class.

Ah I see, your approach to the problem is to turn a blind eye.

Dagger main-hand doesn’t spam Heartseeker at 50% to maximize DPS per Initiative spent. Or Pistol Whip for the same reason.

I get it. Thanks for your magnificent insight.

Please look through the numerous PvP tournaments that have been recorded. It’d be best to start with the most recent ones first as they are more indicative of what gameplay works now. When you find a winning tourney team with a thief Heartseeker or Pistol Whip spamming the whole game let me know.

http://www.twitch.tv/blu42/profile/pastBroadcasts

BFMV.3198:

Shockwave.1230:

This skill isn’t used because it’s a bad use of initiative in most situations.

It impacts 2 weapon sets. S/D and D/D. S/D doesn’t need this skill to be viable. D/D is lacking though.

I think best way to change this skill is to make it a 2 part skill with the first option being a block similar to the Ranger GS skill.

The 1st option block skill effect can be numerous things, but the most interesting in my mind is a 100 unit pull that deals no damage so it doesn’t break stealth and can set up Tactical Strike or Backstab.

While the block is channeling, give the player the option to use dancing dagger in its current incarnation.

In order to make an initiative based block fair it would have to not infinitely block projectiles as some other channel block skills do. At most it should block 2 projectile attacks.

Tweaks to death blossom should also be investigated to make D/D more on par with D/P and S/D

Edit:
On second thought instead of a pull I think a port to behind the blocked attacker is way more balanced than a Cc. The port should have a max distance of melee range

I like your idea of a CC for dagger 4. Maybe throw dagger, if it hits, you then get a second skill to pull your foe to you. This creates a crowd control as well as provides diversity in the weaponsets.

CC on initiative is not allowed unless it’s an 8+ initiative skill. 8 second recharge CC’s is still super frequent, that’s why I changed my mind.

This builds effectiveness is tied to your slot skills, and steal.

Try hide in shadows, shadow refuge, infiltrator’s signet, and shadow step, and basi venom in order to get the most out of the build.

Stealth and stealth attack while closing in, then dual attack and spam 1 until revealed wears off then rinse and repeat.

Combine ports with your dual attack and CnD to use your combo from range.

1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 aren’t problems with any Sword or Dagger main hand set, or the P/D set.

6 is somewhat of an issue on the P/P and D/D sets.

There’s no problems to solve for the class as a whole from that list when they aren’t problems for the class.

This skill isn’t used because it’s a bad use of initiative in most situations.

It impacts 2 weapon sets. S/D and D/D. S/D doesn’t need this skill to be viable. D/D is lacking though.

I think best way to change this skill is to make it a 2 part skill with the first option being a block similar to the Ranger GS skill.

The 1st option block skill effect can be numerous things, but the most interesting in my mind is a 100 unit pull that deals no damage so it doesn’t break stealth and can set up Tactical Strike or Backstab.

While the block is channeling, give the player the option to use dancing dagger in its current incarnation.

In order to make an initiative based block fair it would have to not infinitely block projectiles as some other channel block skills do. At most it should block 2 projectile attacks.

Tweaks to death blossom should also be investigated to make D/D more on par with D/P and S/D

Edit:
On second thought instead of a pull I think a port to behind the blocked attacker is way more balanced than a Cc. The port should have a max distance of melee range

I’ve gotten my first two ever ascended rings from loot boxes from this line. It wasn’t champ or vet boxes either, just normal enemy loot boxes that dropped them.

EnRohbi.2187:

Rolyate.6753:

Increasing the number of boons removed would make this a brilliant skill, especially if it prioritised stability.

I had not considered this.
I would even settles for “Remove 1 boon, prioritize stability”

It would definitely make it actually have a very solid purpose.

I’ve never observed stab to not be the first boon removed with boon strips. What effect isn’t removing stab first?

Karl McLain.5604:

Some great ideas here guys! This skill is something we’ve been looking at, as it’s a little underwhelming at times.

Here’s a bunch of potential things we could do (we would do one or maybe two of these, not all:

1. Look at making it usable on the move. Currently, the animation is ONLY able to be used while standing still.
2. Increase the number of boons removed.
3. Increase the radius.
4. Make this a channeled skill that pulses AOE damage and boon removal while you hold the sword in the ground.
5. Multi-stab! You choose multiple ground targets and stab all of them simultaneously (or one-after the other). We don’t have tech for this yet… but it’s a possibility!
6. ???
7. Profit!

Tagging this thread for later.

I feel like this skill would be a good one to experiment with different effects depending upon movement state. I mostly feel this way because of how epic the current animation looks, but still any reason to try new things is a good one.

While standing still and using the current animation, it could have X potency or effect. While on the move it could have Y effect or X- Y potency.

There’s a simple sounding solution to this might problem, that is actually quite complicated.

The priority of the boon for removal needs to scale with the amount of stacks and duration.

For example, when might gets up towards 12 stacks that are lasting for 15 seconds. I’d rather remove might from an ele than their protection that lasts for 7 seconds. When it gets up towards 20 stacks with a 15+ second duration, I’d rather pull down those might stacks than 8 seconds of stability.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Ok, let’s lay out the problems I’m trying to address. Note that when I mention “utility skill” I am talking about the utility skill built into the weapon set.

1. After the initial burst, we’re tapped out of initiative to use any of our utility skills
2. Swapping weapon sets are meaningless since we only have one Initiative pool
3. To have any meaningful DPS is to spam a certain skill
4. Certain portion of the initiative pool are reserved for utility skill which limits our DPS potential
5. The fact that our skills are spammable that we’ll never see any meaningful buffs to our weapon skills
6. Because of the cost/benefit ratio, certain builds are more initiative efficient which leads to pigeon holing every Thief to run the same build

If Exhaustion is not the answer, then what is?

Resource management is the answer, which is what thieves already do.

Initiative spammers are punished fairly.

Those who manage their resources properly are rewarded fairly.

Grimreaper.5370:

Resetting fights as often as you would like is when stealth becomes a pita, that goes for mesmer as well as thief. Lets not forget the CnD exploit, which makes it spammable, allowing the thief to perma stealth.

Do people actually think this isn’t negative for a thief?

Resetting a fight means you lost time. CnD chaining after the stealth ends means you attack 1 time every 4 seconds. It’s not an exploit and what does a thief actually accomplish by doing that?

Also just attack/AoE to kill a thief that is chaining CnD.

Stealth Available to Thief

• Blackpowder + Heartseeker x 3 = 15 second recharge = 9 seconds of stealth/12 seconds traited **Note all initiative is used for this
• Shadow Refuge = 60 second recharge/48 seconds traited = 15 seconds of stealth/20 seconds traited
• Smokescreen + Heartseeker x 5 = 30 second recharge/24 seconds traited = 15 seconds of stealth/20 seconds traited
• Blinding Powder = 40 second recharge/32 seconds traited = 3 seconds of stealth/4 seconds traited
• Hide in Shadows = 30 second recharge = 3 seconds of stealth/4 seconds traited.
• Cloak and Dagger= 5 second recharge = 3 seconds of stealth/4 seconds traited. **Note this requires the skill to connect with a target.
• Steal (when traited) = 35 second recharge/ 21.5 seconds when traited = 3 seconds of stealth/4 seconds traited.

Best case scenario for stealth duration is a thief with 15 points in shadow arts is a build like the following template:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoaVlsMp7pVPx8JsPFRRBwXA

Here’s why I don’t understand why people think Permastealth is good for winning fights.

• The rotations to maintain stealth would leave the thief constantly without initiative to use offensively.
• The thief gets revealed for 4 seconds if they choose to attack before they can stealth again.
• The thief can’t do damage while in stealth
• The thief is only allowing cool downs to recharge while in stealth, which are cooldowns for more stealthing, and the enemies cool downs are recharging too.
• Perminantly stealthing means you’d never be doing anything

Counters to stealth in general

• Blackpowder – Start attacking it, so that when a thief heartseekers through it you hit him, and he will sometimes heartseeker you and reveal himself. Obviously don’t stand in it when you are attacking it.
• Smokescreen – Same counters as blackpowder
• Heartseeker – Interrupting heartseeker doesn’t allow the leap finisher to complete, preventing the thief from entering stealth through smoke fields.
• Shadow Refuge – Use knockbacks, launches, and pulls to knock the thief out of the refuge revealing him. AoE the refuge forcing him to take damage.
• Hide in Shadows – Interrupt hte 1 second cast time
• Already in stealth – Use an auto attack chain to tell if you are hitting him, and keep track of his location. Use AoE’s to damage him. Recognize how much stealth a thief would have obtained depending on the skill used. Distance will work for the short duration stealths, so will blocks and blinds. Combine blocks and blinds and distance and evades for longer duration stealths.

Because permastealth loses offensive capabilities, and because there are numerous counters to stealth, I am failing to understand what people are complaining about.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

So now we’re redesigning the thief entirely, not entirely actually, just 75% of the way.

Feel free to continue to provide feedback, just know that the effort it will take to do this work would be implemented with an expansion at the earliest. Hopefully not ever, as the thief is one of the professions that needs a redesign the least, I’d rather see that time go into Ranger, Elementalist, and Necromancer.

I disagree. Thieves needs the most overhaul. If you look at our current weapon set, we have the least amount of sets to choose from. We don’t have a range weapon with 1200 range. D/D and P/P weapon set needs to be remade. Most of our traits are crap. Our current weapon set encourages mind-numbing skill spamming…the list goes on.

Putting the timer on other profession is pointless since they already have cooldowns.

P/P I wouldn’t call not viable. Combine it with Ambush it’s a solid weapon set to have, it’s just not found a place with a meta secondary weapon set yet. I don’t like the way that P/P plays, but it doesn’t need remade. I would like to Body Shot redone and potentially tweaks to Unload, but that only impacts 2 weapon sets not the whole thief.

D/D not being viable doesn’t justify a complete remake of the thief either. Death Blossom and Dancing Dagger just need revamps, which won’t affect any other weapon set other than S/D because of Dancing Dagger.

As far as a thief having a 1200 range weapon, I disagree that it needs one. Thief has ports, which makes up for the range disadvantage. If you really want to get first strike every time regardless of range you can grab Long Reach, or chain an Infiltrator’s Skill with steal.

Thief traits are in a solid place if you ask me:

• Deadly Arts line is fantastic. All the minor traits are useful. There’s only two bad Major traits that should never see use, and they’re in the adept line (II & V).
• Critical Strikes is another great line. All minor traits useful. Again only two bad Major Traits imo that should never see use (IX & XI)
• Shadow Arts is solid. People complain about it all the time, because of WvW. Last Refuge is bad imo, for PvP. Like all defensive lines on any non-bunker professions though, I would rarely use any of these traits.
• Acrobatics is solid too. The only trait that I feel people shouldn’t ever use from it is Assassin’s Reward.
• Trickery is solid as well. IMO Initial Strike and Merciful should never be used.

In summary of the trait line though, they’re good.

The only work that I’d like to see done to the thief is, on D/D and P/P for the 3/4 and 2/3 skills respectively.

Other than that, the profession is in a solid place.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

So you feel that losing initiative for all weapon skills between all weapon sets isn’t a punishing enough mechanic. Even though thieves can over the course of 60 seconds use half as many weapon skills as any other profession?

Good for you to bringing this up, I’m actually saving this for much later, but since you mentioned it, I might as well address it.

Let’s review a scenario. Using S/P as an example.

IS -> PW -> BP = total 15 initiatives (tapped out)

Another strength of having this Exhaustion is allowing Thieves to swap weapons, use the skills in that set for zero initiative but putting them in cooldown, then swap back to your main weapon set. Given that swapping has a 10s cooldown, you’ll have 10 initiatives ready to use by the time you swap back.

Being denied access to your off-set weapon skills because you have no initiatives left is not fun.

So now we’re redesigning the thief entirely, not entirely actually, just 75% of the way.

Feel free to continue to provide feedback, just know that the effort it will take to do this work would be implemented with an expansion at the earliest. Hopefully not ever, as the thief is one of the professions that needs a redesign the least, I’d rather see that time go into Ranger, Elementalist, and Necromancer.

This isn’t a serious thread right?

Copy/Paste Warrior

I have a hard time believing there is a reality where the disparity between Caed and Tany is this relatively extreme.

I also have a hard time believing Toker, as good as he is, would break top 10 best players in Guild Wars 2 NA.

I think the formula needs more refining and more data needs to be collected.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Fortus.6175:

I wholeheartedly agree except for a couple of points;

-It isn’t ineffective to spam skills, in fact, one of the main reasons why thieves are so successful is because they can spam all their skills…

This is what the Exhaustion will try to contain, that if the same skill is used within the timer, it will suffer a cooldown. This will give the person in defense enough time to muster a counter play.

-Heartseeker needs rework, not in the damage per say (although it might neeed it a little bit) but it shouldnt have a queue and an instalock, it should be like D/D ele fire #3…

Um, this is not a HS feature, “instalock” is part of the game feature called “Auto-targeting” that can be found in the game’s Options window.

-I agree on the chill and stealth part, but you forgot that they also got very strong skills which dont need any initiative and yet are spammable, those are the worse, like backstab…

That’s not really the definition of “spammable” in this context. When we say spammable, it’s something that can be used back to back — not something you can keep on pressing until it connects.

Atherakhia.4086:

To build off the exhaustion table that the previous poster said, what if you simply make exhaustion stack due to the repeated use of a skill and that increases the initiative cost of that skill (or all skills) until exhaustion fades?

This will pose a serious system problem since for each skill, the game has to keep track of the Exhaustion timer, the cost increment, and the cooldown on top of the player has to keep track of them also. It will be a major burden to play a Thief and that’s not the goal we’re trying to achieve.

What we’re aiming for is to find a solution, a middle ground, on how to limit the skill from being spammed and at the same time not a major burden to the players who plays Thief.

The Exhaustion suggestion is but a starting point.

So you feel that losing initiative for all weapon skills between all weapon sets isn’t a punishing enough mechanic. Even though thieves can over the course of 60 seconds use half as many weapon skills as any other profession?

If you like PvP you can get a Tome of Knowledge to level up for every hour and a half or so of PvP.

Not sure if anyone has done this, I haven’t, but the only way justify the OP is to compare 2 year revenue between Guild Wars 2 and Generic Subcription MMO.

If GW2 has similar revenue to the sub MMO you think is quality (get more than just Wow by the way) , then it’s not revenue that’s the issue. It’s the opinion or expectation people have.

488 to 495 on legacy

We’re down with 2 capture points while the other is neutral.

My party member goes down on the neutral node I start rotating to (I’m a thief).

The score is 496 to to 495 now, and the stab stomp has begun on my engi party member. We’re 4 seconds from victory the opposing team is only 3 seconds from stomping.

I port to the node, as the enemy is jumping for the stomp, I have SoH Traited but my steal is on cool down so I could get swiftness. I use my only remaining option, and throw down a Shadow refuge that is activating as the stomp comes down. A second goes by the game is over and my engi is stealthed down on the ground, 500 to 495 we win.

I hope people realize this is a troll thread.

OP’s logic is Heals to your party are too weak in a game without a dedicated healer.

And

Dps is not king, because it’s the fastest way to play PvE.

/end thread

Check your ping

No profession is broken.

Good players are good.

Rock, paper, scissors is applicable in certain matchups.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Let’s be constructive here and really think about it before you comment. If Anet will have to make changes to discourage the Thieves who spams skills, this may be closer to reality than we think since there’s no other way to satisfy both sides.

Note that this is based on the big “IF”.

What would be helpful is sharing how will this affect your current build.

What situations that this will disrupt your rotation.

Perhaps reducing the the Exhaustion timer to 1s and the cooldown to match the initiative cost will suffice (3init = 3s)? Or make the cooldown flat across the board?

I know that many of you dislike the idea but it would be helpful to share the details on why you dislike the idea.

It’s really not worth discussing when you’re okay with the thief as is.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I posted this in the Profession Balance but I think it’s more appropriate here.

Introducing – “Exhaustion” mechanic

What is Exhaustion?
In GW1, Elementalist has this mechanic to allow them to use explosive spell by sacrificing portion of their energy pool and after a while, they will have less energy left if they kept on using the spell with Exhaustion.

How will Exhaustion work for Thieves?
Each of the weapon skill will have an Exhaustion timer based on the Initiative cost and Exhaustion cooldown timer twice the initiative cost. If the skill is used while Exhaustion is up, the skill will cost zero Initiative but will suffer the cooldown timer.

For example;
- Heartseeker costs 3 initiatives
- Exhaustion timer for HS will be 3s that will activate when HS is used
- If Heartseeker is used while Exhaustion is up, Heartseeker will cost zero initiative but will go in 6s cooldown

- CnD costs 6 initiatives
- Exhaustion timer for CnD will be 6s
- If CnD is used while Exhaustion is up, CnD will cost zero initiative but will go on a 12s cooldown

What will this propose change do?
This will limit the abuse on and misuse of the weapon skills but it will be little or no change to those who manages their initiatives well.

What do you guys think?

Carrying over my response from the previous thread.

"
It’s an interesting thought, but the thief wasn’t balanced around this initially. It’ll take a profession revamp to implement this properly, which the thief doesn’t need.
"

It’s an interesting thought, but the thief wasn’t balanced around this initially. It’ll take a profession revamp to implement this properly, which the thief doesn’t need.

Here’s to hoping ANet doesn’t do an expansion until their new PvP format is done, they make improvements to Obs mode and add a tourney playback feature, they handle PvP disconnects and 4v5s, the new race is done, new skills and traits are done, and most importantly implement PvP ladders.

Until then I look forward to LS season 2.

I seem to have disabled my tab targeting somehow. In my UI Keybind settings I can see that I have next enemy set to tab and previous enemy set to shift + tab, but when I press tab nothing happens.

Is there a checkbox somewhere I may have set that I’m missing?

Nabbo.2845:

Josh Davis.6015:

My bad! Let’s use this as the official thread.

Grats to the fathers Hman, Morfeus, Nnight, Chubbz, and Tarcis – aka ApeX Prime.

Well played to KPz for giving them a tough fight in the finals!

So sloppy. Do you guys drink in the office?

Only on weekendz?

KPz has the better comp. APeX just executed better. I don’t think a decap engi could handle Axe/Sword | Longbow. Too much burning, torment and bleed on top of eviscerate.

Aaron.2413:

snip
-backpack

The problem you’ll run into in forcing a 3 split is how infrequently they have to do it. There’s the beginning of the match you can force a 3 split until they have a 1 cap. Other than that they only need to on Kylo while treb is up and Temple while buffs are up. They will never have to 3 split on Foefire, unless they allow the opposing team to get 350. They never have to 3 split on forest after they have a 1 cap.

Vs their 2 split as long as they match up correctly they’ll probably outlast you, or at least last long enough that the respawn timer is irrelevant.

Even when they don’t match up correctly they can still last long enough that it’s punishing to the game score even if you win the fight.

It takes 3 near perfect games to beat this comp when yours isn’t bunkery. Whereas for them their comp is very forgiving on their own mistakes, and honestly doesn’t put them in a position to make many since they have less rotating than a non-bunkery comp.

The reason they have to rotate less is because the ele/guardián builds do similar things, and running dual warriors is similar too, Apex was running two hambows. Because the builds are so effective and similar this eliminates or reduces the time on potential rotations you’d make for a 2 split.

If you’d need a hambow on one of your 2 caps, it’s probably there already. If you’d need a support on a point it’s probably already there.

Conceptually the best counter I can think of for a comp that isn’t that bunkery is a warrior, Guardian, thief, thief/Mesmer, and variable non-squishy. You’d have to abuse the mobility of two thieves or thief and smart portal play in order to scew the numbers in your favor long enough to ko 1 of the 2 supports in a timely manner, then ko the Ranger or hambow with a 2v1 in the next 20 or so seconds to beat out the rotation. All this while hoping your other 2 can stay up long enough against a 2v3 that your thief can get back to them.

There’s obviously a lot of micro analysis that can be done in regard to playing each match up, but at a macro level this comp requires you to build specifically to counter it or run it in order beat it currently.

ronpierce.2760:

Just because it applies to both sides doesn’t make it bad. That’s like saying OP classes can exist because both sides can exploit them. Such a goofy argument. If a team is good enough to beat 1v2 or 2v3 or even 2v4 strength in numbers should not say “well duh, they haz more so they should win”. No. That’s COMPLETELY and purposefully throwing skill out of the equation. If 2 people are tearing down the walls because the enemy isn’t playing well enough or don’t have a good synergy or communication they should not have even MORE crutch on top of outnumbering their enemy. I don’t know why people keep thinking this idea of “the game keeps going after you die, its a skillful and indepth play scenario”, it’s not. They balance damage around people dying, which means more time is spent dying and less time fighting with your actual skills than it should be to compensate for this goofy kitten mechanic.

Rally off kill is used by all classes, it’s not different between the classes. There is no class with an OP version of rally tagging where they only have to down someone in order to rally, while all others have to defeat someone. It’s equal between all classes that’s why it’s balanced.

lilz shorty.1879:

Shockwave.1230:

lilz shorty.1879:

You are still missing my point. Warriors and sustain is fundamentally broken, doing good damage, having great survivability + being tanky is op. Adding other sustain classes that compliment each other is just absurd to fight. When 3/4 teams in semifinals ran 2 warriors it highlights something fundamentally wrong with balance. I don’t care if there is a “counter comp” to it even if it exists, if you are talking about power necros your comp can still easily deal with that.

There’s a lot of micro analysis that’s required in order to disect the weaknesses of your team comp.

The strengths of the comp cover up the weaknesses that the professions normally have individually, as well as weaknesses that would normally be there in other comps.

Admiting that you feel you’re able to follow the holy trinity is actually part of the perceived problem. The holy trinity in concept is a perfect composition that can’t be beat by anything other than another comp utilizing the trinity. The holy trinity would out heal any other comp.

From the outside looking in, the strengths of your comp require the opponents playing a non-bunkery comp play nearly perfectly when coordinating spikes. Whereas your comp is low risk and high reward, because you will either widdle the opposition down over time or they are forced to retreat and you gain a point.

Y’all are so bunkery, it’d be hard to spike you down. Condi’s are very ineffective, so at a conceptual level there’s no option but to run a bunkery comp to counter your bunkery comp. It seems like a team would have to specifically build to counter you, instead of comps at large being able to counter your comp via matchups and rotation.

There’s a reason that what was pretty much the same comp made it to the finals from both sides of the tourny, and that’s because general team comps are at a disadvantage vs the bunkery comp.

I 100% agree with you. But all I am saying is we are not the ones to blame and it is possible to beat us and counter us lol. But yes its unfortunate that we happen to be lucky where our main classes happen to work so well together and create this comp. We needed a strat and a comp because we did not have the mobility of a thief.

I’m not blaming you, and no one should be honestly. You did what the game allowed. It’s just pretty obvious, that the comp does a lot to negate skilled plays done by the opposing comps.

As a side note though, this comp with a thief instead of ranger should have won. There were so many opportunities for SupCutie to outrotate that were very noticeable, not that I’d necessarily have done better. Caed did an excellent job at this on Kylo though in the previous round.

lilz shorty.1879:

You are still missing my point. Warriors and sustain is fundamentally broken, doing good damage, having great survivability + being tanky is op. Adding other sustain classes that compliment each other is just absurd to fight. When 3/4 teams in semifinals ran 2 warriors it highlights something fundamentally wrong with balance. I don’t care if there is a “counter comp” to it even if it exists, if you are talking about power necros your comp can still easily deal with that.

There’s a lot of micro analysis that’s required in order to disect the weaknesses of your team comp.

The strengths of the comp cover up the weaknesses that the professions normally have individually, as well as weaknesses that would normally be there in other comps.

Admiting that you feel you’re able to follow the holy trinity is actually part of the perceived problem. The holy trinity in concept is a perfect composition that can’t be beat by anything other than another comp utilizing the trinity. The holy trinity would out heal any other comp.

From the outside looking in, the strengths of your comp require the opponents playing a non-bunkery comp play nearly perfectly when coordinating spikes. Whereas your comp is low risk and high reward, because you will either widdle the opposition down over time or they are forced to retreat and you gain a point.

Y’all are so bunkery, it’d be hard to spike you down. Condi’s are very ineffective, so at a conceptual level there’s no option but to run a bunkery comp to counter your bunkery comp. It seems like a team would have to specifically build to counter you, instead of comps at large being able to counter your comp via matchups and rotation.

There’s a reason that what was pretty much the same comp made it to the finals from both sides of the tourny, and that’s because general team comps are at a disadvantage vs the bunkery comp.

Fyi, Finals only had 5 professions.

• Warrior x 4
• Guardian x 2
• Elementalist x 2
• Thief
• Ranger

/report ArenaNet
Exploit

ArenaNet is winning PvP by booting everyone from the servers!!! Nerf!!!

Prediciton:
The team comp that has a thief and if the other doesn’t, the one with the thief will win. If both have a thief, APeX wins.

The bunker might comp looks very forgiving. Team Lonely was out rotating Apex, but if Apex also had a thief that may not have happened. When that bunker might comp rotates correctly, it could be the best comp by far.

With how dominantly that KPz’s bunker might stacking comp handled Good Fights, I’m thinking Team Lonely will be getting rolled by Apex in similar fashion, since Team Lonely hasn’t had too long to build chemistry in coordinated spikes.

I’m hoping I’m wrong, I don’t want to see 1 dominant comp.

Zach.3264:

I’m really not sure how you managed to arrive at the conclusion that a bunker can get the same DPS as a zerker?

• Might stacking
• Guarenteed Crit Mechanics
• Bonus precision + High Fury uptime

Dee Jay.2460:

But now even Thieves, the most notorious glass-cannon, has switched to a more durable and sustainable build with evade-spam.

/agree
I’m seeing more S/D, likely in the hope of stealing might stacks.

Silv.9207:

Why I need to be a DPS class if I can be a Bunker that deal more than a DPS class?

/agree
There’s little reason to run a zerker amulet when you can run soldier’s/celestial and compensate for the crit chance/damage via traits, sigils, and runes to get what effectively looks like tanky zerker builds after being in combat for 10 seconds.

Romek.4201:

there is no bunker meta

people are forced to build more defensive or they would die in seconds to the condispam we have now (special condi Engis, necros and Mesmers)

I haven’t been noticing a lot of conditions. Ele’s, Warriors, and Guardians are appearing a lot and they handel conditions very well.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

It would make sense. A lot of the last patch took a lot of the teeth out of many builds. Arguably the hardest hitting professions in game were warrior and thief. A measurable amount of power got removed from both and poison applications were reduced. As a result no person truly has enough direct spike damage to take down a bunker with they have all recharges available. It is now the case of the irresistible force finding it more difficult to move the immovable object.

Nothing got taken away from them that I saw, I think you’re just noticing people specing with the more defensive amulets.

Is it safe to call this a bunker meta with the rune and sigil changes?

It seems like there’s a lot of people speccing Soldier’s, Cleric’s, and Celestial with Strength Runes, Strength Sigil, and Battle sigil.

That seems to be the template I’m noticing.

It’s a solid choice, since you get all the benefits of being a bunker, then as a fight goes on your dps goes up and up and get’s on par with zerkers.

Zoxea.9564:

Shockwave.1230:

[…]

I’m sorry but rally is very bad, also, in PvP.

2v1, i fight vs 2 players, a mate is touched by my 2 opponents but don’t fight and run in other point. I down my 2 opponents, i have 10/15% HP, my mate is dead in other point in the map, my 2 opponents is up by rally, i’m killed, i lose my fight…

You can not ignore this example, and many others, in PvP.

How is that a problem?

It applies to both teams.

Also this scenario doesn’t happen, across the map causes you to lose tag. They can die somewhat nearby and this be a valid scenario though.