“Dhuumfire is balanced around being an auto attack. Because of that, linking it to Summon Shade makes it close to 15x weaker than it is on Reaper.”
For a post so well thought out please avoid the hyperbole.
I don’t mind the new version just wish it worked as worded. It says movement impairing conditions but it’s movement impairing condition.
Either that or its bugged.
oh and an additional note, the damage of scourges will come from applying torment by corrupting boons
not really. You’ll get more from dhuumfire and using F skills than you would corrupting boons with utility skills.
how to troll and kill a scourge…
Avoid shades dance arround them while jumping in on the necro for insane burst…
GZ its has the same weakness that Power Reapers have… just stay away from the stationary Shades and kill the necro lol
Doesnt matter if you avoid the shades or not the F skills all read “You and your shades”. Ranged abilities would be the only true way to avoid being hit by any of the shade mechanic.
Now the next big question is whether Sand Savant counts as 3 Shades for F1 purposes like it does for traits.
Probably not. It says “A greater shade counts as three shades for related traits.” which is very specific wording. Most likely meaning the two minors, desert empowerment, and unending corruption. Cant have it being the best trait for damage and support.
Interesting if it does though.
I wonder. I mean Dhuumfire is a trait. So it should count for 3 there right? Thats the main one.
All that leaves is the 2 second Torment per Shade on F1 use. Technically the whole Shade system is a trait.
You are giving up Demonic Lore, smaller area coverage and less flexibility with Shade Savant so there should be some upside.
“Related traits”. I would say Dhuumfire benefits F1 but it’s not related. Always proccing three attacks from the shade would make savant the best choice for pretty much all situations.
Savant is the supportive GM based on the top line of traits before it. Has a larger radius and lower cool down to make use of those. It also covers a larger overall area and lets you cover more targets with greater ease and provide better support. If it was the best offensive choice too it wouldn’t really be fair.
We’ll see in 4 days but I hope I am right.
Now the next big question is whether Sand Savant counts as 3 Shades for F1 purposes like it does for traits.
Probably not. It says “A greater shade counts as three shades for related traits.” which is very specific wording. Most likely meaning the two minors, desert empowerment, and unending corruption. Cant have it being the best trait for damage and support.
Interesting if it does though.
Barrier, since it decays so rapidly, needs to scale much better than this.
I’m curious to see what you expect the barrier scaling to be.
Decided to make a new post for this since Im half way through.
Chat links are on the wiki pages. Should be ok now.
Some interesting things.Manifest Sand Shade works with all shroud 1 traits for when it does its strikes like we thought ( dhuumfire, reapers might, unyielding blast ) It doesn’t seem to be affected by VP for its count recharge though.
Nefarious Favour appear to work with path of corruption according to the tool-tip when traited. This one works with VP to have a 4s cooldown. Interesting thins is no-matter what my vitality the LF costs seems to be a fixed 1382.
Sand Cascade has a base of 2111 and a scaling of approx 0.76with a cost of 2478. Same as above I cant get the costs to change. VP works though.
Garish Pillar just works with VP. Fixed cost again of 4606. Nothing too special. Doesnt seemt o work with transfuse.
Desert Shroud works with on entering shroud traits as we thought. The chat link for this one for me with 0 HP has a base of 5016 and a scaling of ~0.63. Again Fixed costs of 3685. VP also works here.
Sand Flare has a base of 4208 and a scaling of ~1.51 for the barrier.
Sand Swell has a base of 1618 and a scaling of about 0.75
Serpent Siphon has been done in the op and it all checks out.
Context, my friend. I also said what I consider the baseline acceptable scaling is.
Well before you changed your post from 70% to 80% scaling pretty much all of the abilities were over the threshold bar enter sand shroud which has a much higher base value than the others. Even then the different between 0.75 and 0.8 is like 100 barrier at 2000 HP..its incredibly small. Also considering max barrier is 50% of max health one skill can cap some people and 50% others.
Just sounds like you dont want to like it. Your opinion is your own though.
Btw how did u test all this stuff alrdy?
Chat codes and math.
(edited by Sigmoid.7082)
Well if i trait with Transfusion it does not change the tooltip of desert shroud to include any healing. Im wondering what will happen with this, as transfusion is just fitting the support theme perfect.
Doesn’t gain the stun-break skill-fact from FitG either so I dont think some of them are completely ..complete
Barrier, since it decays so rapidly, needs to scale much better than this.
I’m curious to see what you expect the barrier scaling to be.
Desert Shroud works with on entering shroud traits as we thought. The chat link for this one for me with 0 HP has a base of 5016 and a scaling of ~0.63. Again Fixed costs of 3685. VP also works here.
If it procs Spiteful Spirit and Weakening Shroud on top of its base functionality it is an incredible strong skill for a Power-Scourge in any PvP environment.
Does it proc the traits at the players or the sand shade location? Or even at both?
Hard to tell since those two skills dont add to the tooltips but since the boons from entering shroud work we can tell its coded as a shroud enter so it may proc weapons swaps and these two traits.
Im more interested in manifest sand shade. It in itself is a shade skill and as per another post i made the other day after watching WPs video more closely. Everytime you summon a shade, including the first summon, or use a shade skill it, and you, will attack. As long as these overlap you will end up putting out a ton of burning with Dhuumfire., gaining a ton of might with reapers might or putting out a bunch of vuln with unyielding blast.
Also some of the barrier skills have pretty high base numbers and with some HP they become pretty good.
Decided to make a new post for this since Im half way through.
Chat links are on the wiki pages. Should be ok now.
Some interesting things.
Manifest Sand Shade works with all shroud 1 traits for when it does its strikes like we thought ( dhuumfire, reapers might, unyielding blast ) It doesn’t seem to be affected by VP for its count recharge though.
Nefarious Favour appear to work with path of corruption according to the tool-tip when traited. This one works with VP to have a 4s cooldown. Interesting thins is no-matter what my vitality the LF costs seems to be a fixed 1382.
Sand Cascade has a base of 2111 and a scaling of approx 0.76with a cost of 2478. Same as above I cant get the costs to change. VP works though.
Garish Pillar just works with VP. Fixed cost again of 4606. Nothing too special. Doesnt seemt o work with transfuse.
Desert Shroud works with on entering shroud traits as we thought. The chat link for this one for me with 0 HP has a base of 5016 and a scaling of ~0.63. Again Fixed costs of 3685. VP also works here.
Sand Flare has a base of 4208 and a scaling of ~1.51 for the barrier.
Sand Swell has a base of 1618 and a scaling of about 0.75
Serpent Siphon has been done in the op and it all checks out.
(edited by Sigmoid.7082)
Yo,
Im going to spend some time grabbing the healing power scaling of the barrier skills and updating the wiki.
the barrier amount is low
Its got a 5 target cap so it should produce 5 bits of sand at max. Sorta like a barrier version of Fragments of Faith
- your teammates will need to invest in vitality
- you will need to invest in vitality.
Just because barrier scales from max HP I wouldn’t say you or your allies need to invest in vit more than anyone does now.
Any projectile that is unlockable as an image property or by any other means cannot be destroyed, reflected or converted iirc.
we have enough info to predict what the meta weapon set, utilities and the rotation is going to be. we only dont know what the gear will be (runes, sinister/viper combo etc)
I disagree. Well we’ll see soon enough anyway. Looking forward to testing everything.
Aktium.9506If you slot Bone Fiend and Shadow Fiend and summon them and then switch their places on the skill bar instantly un-summoning both and then have your squad mass /gg for cooldown reset every time you do so you can get LF quickly.
Don’t teach yo momma how to do sex. She knows.
Maxzero.4032Means you can’t camp Scepter/Torch.
The other set will prob be Dagger/Warhorn. Dagger MH for LF generation. Warhorn OH for the same reason.No.
Sigmoid.7082Also don’t forget new stats combos. A build with scourge may be dagger mainhand with the grevious/vipers stats combos.
No.
In your opening post it sounds like you I decided what the meta will be when the fact is we don’t know. It’s fair to assume but if you aren’t going to be open to new ideas don’t complain if the game doesn’t change for you so you don’t get left behind.
I mean after all GS ended up in a co signer rotation.
(edited by Sigmoid.7082)
Also don’t forget new stats combos. A build with scourge may be dagger mainhand with the grevious/vipers stats combos.
I’m actually really trying to work out whether 3 shades in a triangle covers more area than Shade Savant now. Is anyone good at geometry :p
It’s a slightly larger area.
But considering you can o my have 2 out permanently then it’s a much smaller area. Smaller still if sand savant affects your character.
Though I suppose the benefit of not taking it is you can cover more directions. E.g. you can cover 2 large areas where you and the savant are (covering the front and backline in WvW for example), or cover 4 slightly smaller areas ( lining them all up in a choke point, covering 2 or 3 enterences etc ). And not having to reposition the existing shade since you aren’t limited to 1.
Yay for meaningful tradeoffs and choices
snip
From the way its worded Sand Savant seems like it will only effect Sand Soul , Desert Empowerment , Unending Corruption and Blood as Sand
Thought I am interested in the wording “You affect more targets and influence a larger area with Shade skills.” since skills all read some iteration of “around you and your sand shades”
Normally summoning 3 shades and yourself should be able to hit 20 targets unless they impose a cap like they did on Coalescence of Ruin. Does this mean taking Sand Savant causes not only one great shade but also yourself to have the larger area of effect and increased target cap?
So many interactions to test and look forward to.
Guys please watch this until 01:46:43
You will notice two things. When he summons a shade it has a small explosion effect around him and the shade. This means two things which make sense based on how
Manifest Sand Shade is worded and how the skill is classified.
It is a shade skill. This means every time you summon a shade you will proc the attack and do the damage and condis including from the shade you just summoned (easily seen in video ). Assuming they all strike and have no cap then the more you summon the more procs you get. e.g summon 1 shade you do 2 hits, summon a second shade you do 3 hits, summon the 3rd shade you do 4 hits. Then every time after you use a shade skill including summoning another shade they, and you, will all strike again.
If they proc dhuumfire then that is a lot of burning output. If they are classed as a shroud skill as well then VP and alacrity will reduce the count recharge to 9s amusing alacrity works on ammo skills.
Same goes for unyielding blast and reapers might possibly.
Most of the time you will only have up 1 – 2 shades up, due to the cooldowns.
You’ve misread how ammo works. There’s no cooldown until you reach the ammo cap for Sand Shade (which is 3). So you can cast all 3, then it has a 15s cooldown and each Shade lasts for 25s. And the sand scourge torment effect comes from you too, so that’s 4 torments max (people will be capping torment duration) for 4s.
It doesn’t work like that. Watch WPs Video starting at 1hour46min, he casts one shade, then talks, and during this time you can see the border of the F1 fill up and when its full he gets his 3rd ammo back. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOr-LO38Mts&t=6694s
Check the current ammo skills in game and you’ll know I am correct.
This just means there is no cool-down between when you can cast your shades. They will still recharge every 15~9s depending on how traits work and alacrity.
Burj did miss the extra stack of torment from the effect actually happening around the necro as well though.
Life Siphon: This skill has been unsplit from PvP and now uses the higher healing value in all game modes. Fixed a bug that caused this skill to go on higher (normal) recharge when interrupted while Quickening Thirst is equipped.
The bit in bold is still bugged. When interrupting the skill either with stow weapon or being hit with CC it will still go on the long cooldown when traited.
Thanks
I’m hoping the new portal goes some way to addressing that by giving us even more and better kiting options.
Me too, but that kitten thing has a 35 second cooldown.
Lasts 20s though. Depends on how many times you can move through it. 900 range is fairly big.
@spectral mastery: I assume they nerfed the 50% duration increase because they increased the duration of the skills themselves.
by 2 secs….
Old
Specral Walk. 8 →12s
Spectral Armour 6→9s
Spectral Wall 5→7.5s
New
Spectral walk 10→12s
Spectral Armour 8→9.6s
Spectral Wall 6→7.2s
Essentially no difference in the traited version but the base versions are better overall.
Plus…the last thing a non-scaling cloth wearing support spec should do is get in melee range. This whole Scourge thing is clunky and counter-intuitive for anything but scripted PvE content.
Now you are doing the opposite. Just because I said the effects also happen on/around you doesn’t mean you need to be moving yourself into melee range of anything.
Wait until the 18th.
Although by the sounds of things you’ve already written the spec off so every conceivable bad scenario is extenuated and common place and any good scenarios/benefits are dismissed by perfect counters that will obviously happen 100% of the time.
Why are you so worried about what I’m going to do and what I think? I told you, if you don’t believe me, knock yourself out and see for yourself.
The PROOF will be in what YOU do yourself after trying it and seeing I’m right.
I play enough of the professions and have played necro long enough (since release) that I know if you take away death shroud AND the movement of #2 AND the stability AND the chill/blind/stun abilities of DS…that you’re going to be an even EASIER focus target if you’re just getting back fixed location small radius support/condis/barrier.
There’s a reason you haven’t see banner warriors and turret engies in the entire life of GW2 PvP (with the exception of 1 season where turrets were so ridiculous and had enormous range compared to these dinky shades).
Nevertheless, I look forward to your YouTube videos showing us how awesome it is…lol
To each their own. Lol
Umm no. Desert Empowerment and Sand Savage work together. Desert Empowerement has no cooldown, and Sand Savant makes your shade count as 3, so you get 6k barrier every 10 seconds for spawning it, …
Sand Savant only works for the purpose of traits that deal with shades so it is considered 3 shades:
“A greater shade counts as three shades for related traits.”
WP never shows Desert Empowerment without the trait hence why even on the wiki the one who put it up there has put it up with a radius of 300. There is no way to know if the 2020 isn’t the tripled version of the trait or if it even works that way to begin with. Considering he has 1200 healing power when he goes through and the increased radius I’m speculatively leaning towards it doesn’t. Or it is and the barrier base and scaling are super low. Same with..
and 2k every 8 second with shade skill 3, equals to 8k AOE barrier every 10 seconds. We dont know if the barrier numbers are baseline though, or with invested healing power, but that is the intention behind the trait.
Shroud 3, Sand Cascade skill not a trait and also reads
“Targets affected by this ability can only be affected once per cast.”
So again it leads to the impression that it will only grant its barrier value once.
With bold we do know WP has 1200 HP.
I could be wrong but that would lead the barrier numbers to be insane.
(edited by Sigmoid.7082)
Plus…the last thing a non-scaling cloth wearing support spec should do is get in melee range. This whole Scourge thing is clunky and counter-intuitive for anything but scripted PvE content.
Now you are doing the opposite. Just because I said the effects also happen on/around you doesn’t mean you need to be moving yourself into melee range of anything.
Wait until the 18th.
Although by the sounds of things you’ve already written the spec off so every conceivable bad scenario is extenuated and common place and any good scenarios/benefits are dismissed by perfect counters that will obviously happen 100% of the time.
The whole point of elite specs is to provide different options and more variety to overall mechanics and gameplay for the class. The way that is going to be accomplished is not always going to be exactly the same. And I’m perfectly fine with that. More than fine with it actually, I prefer that new elite specs differentiate themselves.
So no, I don’t feel Mirage feels “empty” without a F5 or think it needs one. Its getting a unique dodge mechanic instead, and that’s just fine. Its going to be something to adjust to for those who have stuck to Chronomancer since its release and have gotten used to it and only it, but I don’t see anything inherently “wrong” with a new elite spec requiring a bit of time to get used to.
Its hardly something that only affects Mesmer either, its pretty much across-the-board that most of the new elite specs are handling their mechanics changes in a different way than the first. Weaver isn’t getting “burst” skills on their attunements, Soulbeast isn’t getting a resource-using form change, Deadeye isn’t getting another on-dodge mechanic, Scourge is getting normal skills that use resource rather than just getting a new set of skills on a normal Shroud, ect.
+1
A smaller pool is always easier to heal up/maintain.
This would only apply to health. Shroud is always gained as a % of its max.
Damage mitigation is multiplicative. The more individual sources you have the less effective the next one is overall comparatively.
You even lose a fear unless the enemy is dumb enough to fight you within a small radius near the shade … requires you to cc yourself to the small shade range … Leave the shade and your main source of abilities/damage/survivability?…
…and has to stay put in one small area
I keep seeing quotes like this. F1~5 all read “around/near you and your sand shades.”. Bar F1 shades will only really increase the area you affect due to the flavour text “Targets affected by this ability can only be affected once per cast.”
You dont have to be anywhere near your shades at all. Watch this you can clearly see the fear from f3 coming from the necro as well as the shades. Same at 7:03.
(edited by Sigmoid.7082)
Im actually far more interested in the traits than the skills themselves really for sPvP. In particularly Sand Savant. This skill has the flavour text “A greater shade counts as three shades for related traits.”. How does it interact with the other traits because of this.
We never get to see the non-traited scaling on Desert Empowerment. Does it grant 650 odd barrier and scale well with healing power or is it always 2k with 150 healing power? Does it cause it to apply barrier 3 times meaning Abrasive Gift removes 3 conditions and grants 6 stacks of might?
Does it cause Unending Corruption Corruption to corrupt 3 conditions? Does Nourishing Rot have a per strike ICD like CV and Chilling Darkness? ( CV states it but CD does not ).
Its maximum range is 1050 so you dont really need to be that close to a fight to make use of it. Also covers a huge area.
You’ll only need healing power if you intend to play it as a support.
Explain me something. Deathly chill was causing bleeding. So how they can put it into power damage? I know there is "chill deals damage over time, but basically it’s all about bleed right? If they change it, they will ruin condition build at all since chill is one of the best chain reaction on necro.
exactly, anet is making reaper a pure power build so they are changing what deathly chill does. it would be nice if it was something like “deal +x% damage to chilled opponents”
WP mouses over it in the pvp area when previewing scourge and it still causes bleed. Unless he was playing on a version where it wasnt changed yet we will ahve to wait and see.
Depending on the cast time and range of that teleport
We’ll have to wait and see with the Scourge in my opinion. The damage in PvE/WvW might be great but I’m wondering if the activation of skills will be too slow because of the dependency on the Shades. Therefore leading to lower dps and an easier target in PvP, unless we somehow figure out how to spam Barrier.
Shades appear to be more of an area/range multiplier than a force multiplier because the F2~4 skills read “you and your sand shades” and “Targets affected by this ability can only be affected once per cast/pluse.” F1 seems to be the only exception.
Huh, that sounds even more grim if there’re healing power thresholds to gain integer amount of barriers.
From my understanding the skills that grant barrier scale with healing power the same as heals. As in its X+(HP*Y).
That’s not bad if it’s reliable. Plus you can bring allies with you. Granted it isn’t a ton of mobility but you do have options.
I’d take a 20s mobility that doesn’t have deaths charges issues with actually going to it’s target any day.
Its a ground targeted shadow step that leaves a portal. Being able to move in the z-axis like never before is very useful. If you use it to leave combat you can re-enter combat with a reasonable amount of barrier.
Notice how in the video he says it’s for some specs? Ie it’s an OP mechanic made only for PoF elites to make them considerably stronger than HoT elites, in order to make people buy the exp pack. Wouldnt surprise me either if these elites can support other PoF elites by adding it via AoE.
Yes, it’s probably as simple as that.
Imagine fighting a berserker warrior with an eqvivalent of 35K hp or so and adrenal health + healing signet.
Also I’m guessing this “over-health” cant be added to via normal heals (ie GW2/HoT build skills) or it would make some classes hugely OP. Imagine a full vitality ele healbot, the kind that can already go 0-100 hp in 3 seconds. What could we reach? 30k hp? 40k?!.
The only elite spec that provides a meaningful amount of barrier is scourge. Your examples are likely impossible unless you’re being supported by one.
As someone who plays using shroud very minimally and has been looking for a decent support option on necro. Yes.
I think it’s biggest use will be against typical PvE mobs
Will also see a lot of use in trains. Pushing with an extra 5~10k+ HP (max of +50% HP) is going to be fairly useful.
barrier will be useless if it deteriorates in combat.
Its already been shown it does and I doubt it will be useless.
Barrier isn’t supposed to be an alternative to healing.
Wonder how much barrier it gives.
.no gap closers.
I don’t see how this is overly an issue.
Ahh, I tried to catch the range skill fact with pausing, but I couldn’t read it.
got to slow it down to 0.25 speed but it is 900 range. Its been updated on the wiki as well.
Just a heads up if you watch this video my WP about barrier if you slow the video down and watch carefully you can see that sand swell has 900 range and is a ground targeted
i am watching to thee other elite specs again and again and cannot understand why anet dont see by themself, that scourge is trash.
Why?
Right now, I don’t see the new legend being anywhere close to meta.
Meta this meta that…
I remember back before raids when every profession was at least capable if not equal, and people could just play the prof if they enjoyed it.
Meta this meta that existed well before raids
The same could be said of the power of every elite spec we have details on.
Scourge Barrier and Shroud interaction looks busted
Seeing as how Scourges lose Shroud entirely, how do you figure this?
Lets see, one person loses a 15k health shield. Instead upto 5 other can get 6K health shields and upto ~ 9k healing on top of that.
What do you value more 15k personal health or 30k health in shielding for you and 4 others on top of upto 45k raw Healing.
Not where where you’re getting the 9k raw healing from, as the Necro sure isn’t providing it. Even Transfusion, which will certainly be weaker on Scourge than even base Necro, only hits about 6k at its highest (Reaper, FYI). Other AoE heals from Necros are weaksauce.
On top of that, you just said it’s a tradeoff. The “barrier and Shroud interaction” doesn’t even exist unless you are talking about two separate players, one a Necro/Reaper and the other a Scourge. In that case its, well, a support doing support.
So, would I prefer the teamwide barriers or Shroud? Depends on a lot of factors. PvP, definitely the personal health. You can’t provide any support when you’re dead.
Shroud traits still work on scourge hence barrier + shroud interaction. Also, if you cannot see it, i encourage you to go look at trait’s and scaling.
You realize I am one of the very few who has Necro scalings and ratios memorized? Especially for the Healing Power ratios?
We don’t know exactly how Shroud traits will work with Scourge. We know Furious Demise works with Desert Shroud, and we can assume that’s true of all enter/exit traits. Since Desert Shroud is also the only F skill that pulses, we can probably assume that that is the skill Transfusion works off of. But it only pulses 7 times (Life Transfer pulses 9 times and Soul Spiral 12), for a total Healing Power scaling of 1.4 and base of 2044, meaning to reach a 9k heal, you would need 5k Healing Power, which is about 3k worth of stats higher than what is even possible.
I run Zealots Necro when I want to go Power. I am more than aware of exactly what level of healing a Necro can put out.
Using the build editor I can grab ~2100 HP ( massive investment I know ). This means you can get 7 ~940 ticks from transfusion and ~3750 off from life from death.
So you can heal yourself for 10.3k health. With outgoing healing effectiveness you should net 12.4k to allies over 6s assuming the traits work this way and dont get changed too much.
Not to sure on the barrier numbers but you should be able to net anywhere from 6 to about 10k+ barrier using some combination of traited F1, F5,F3 and the heal.
Assuming to much doesnt change the numbers that Tex quoted are very reachable.