Guild Wars 2

Karl McLain.5604:

Lokheit.7943:

I was distracted, did they mention if Bound breaks stealth on hit when comboing? Or it will work like heartseeker? It looks great and the damage is solid, so I hope I can synergize it with my build.

It works the same as Heartseeker.

This is a really well designed Elite Spec and it seems that we finally have someone who understand what the Thief profession is lacking.

I really hope that you remain strong to resist the QQs post launch and not nerf the Thief to the ground.

Keep up the good work Karl.

Takato.4976:

Signet of agility ( example ) would obviously restore the whole 150 endurance.
There’s absolutely 0 reason it would.

Sorry but the signet shows 100 endurance instead of 100%, thus the requirement for further clarification.

In the same way, dodge costs 50% endurance, that is 50% of your max not your current endurance level.

You might be good at Math but your numbers are wrong.

Auesis.7301:

It depends on whether Endurance regeneration uses a percentile or flat values. Considering everyone had 100 before, it wouldn’t be abnormal for it to just be 5 instead of 5%.

At least we know that skills have different ways of doing it. Signet of Agility gains a flat 100 Endurance while Hard to Catch gains 100% ie. up to 150.

I think 5 and 5% are interchangeable, so Signet of Agility is considered to refill 100%. However this needs to be clarified further because each dodge cost 50% endurance, thus it would mean it will cost 75 for DD.

babazhook.6805:

Consider other sources of endurance based upon a given pool when trying to make comparisions as to what gets more dodges.

As example the pool is now 150 if one takes DD line.

A sigil of energy restores 50 percent of endurance. Will this be 50 or 75?
A sigil of Stamina restores 100 percent of endurance. Is this 100 or 150?
The Rune of the adventurer restores 50 percent. Is this 50 or 75?
Hard to catch restores all endurance after a stun will this be 100 or 150?
A signet of agility restores all endurance when used. is this 100 or 150?

If it the higher number, that a pretty nice boost to how powerful a Signet of Agility just as an example and not one that could happen with the old FG and lower capped pool.

These all work better if the pool higher and if the amount restored based on that higher pool.

Hmm, you got a good point. The endurance regen is 5% per second, that would mean that with higher max endurance, it will regen for more per second.

We need more infor on this.

Jana.6831:

The rebirth of S/D is nice. It’s also nice that D/P will profit from a lot of these traits as well.
And what’s with D/D? And by that I mean Dagger/Dagger.
Can’t chime in until my spec is viable again, sorry – I don’t feel that the work on thief is done.

I totally agree, they have more work to do, however it is still a good news that they have finally realized that in order for Thief to survive it would require this much evasion and I hope that they keep it that way.

I’m still waiting for a P/P redesign. I hate that I am being forced to use Shortbow.

Maugetarr.6823:

sirvincentiii

Let’s do the math.

Feline Grace effectively refunds 15 endurance, thus the cost of 50 endurance per dodge effectively now cost 35 — which allows for roughly 3 dodges with a full endurance bar. Three dodges costs 105 endurance under Feline Grace, meaning after dodging twice, you have to wait a bit before you can perform the 3rd dodge.

Now tell me how the old Feline Grace is better than having 150 endurance?

The old FG stacked with vigor. Yes it allowed for 3 initial dodges the same way this new trait allows for 3 initial dodges, the difference being that the dodges available afterwards. Old FG without vigor allowed for a dodge ever 7 seconds and a dodge every 3.5 seconds with vigor after all endurance has been expended. This trait keeps the endurance regen in such a way that you will only generate 1 dodge every 10 seconds without vigor and 6.66 seconds with vigor (even if it were 1 every 5 seconds with the old vigor, that’s still ~43% longer than what the old feline grace was capable of).

Yes, the potential amount of dodges you can do is better, sure. However, in practicality, you’re not dodging every time you get 50 endurance. In fact, due to other things we’re doing (like DPSing), endurance are allowed to refill without using dodge. Thus, a larger canister of endurance is better in practical use and either trait would have to rely on other means to gain endurance.

Yes, I’m mildly annoyed that they nerfed our old acrobatics. Yes, it was a little too strong, but could’ve been fixed with some number tweaking on FG. That said, they made a lot of great traits to enhance our dodging capabilities in this line, so overall I like the direction they went. I think acro could use a retool now so that it has a more cohesive design that overlaps less than what these two now do.

I’m not denying that the DD trait line is good, in fact, I like it a lot. I am as annoyed as you about this and to the similarity of old FG to the 150 endurance trait.

What we really need is for those platinum balls to resist the nerf bat.

I like the design of DD, but I’ll have to wait (and hold unto my money) and see what they’ll do after launch when the PvP season rolls in.

stof.9341:

Stop the strawmans. The point is that since Feline Grace reduces the cost of dodging, the longer it gets the more dodges it gives you in comparison to DD.

Feline Grace never reduced the cost, rather it gives you a refund — it affects the endurance regen rate than anything else — it roughly reduces the time by 3s per dodge. You still need to have 50 endurance before you can dodge though.

Look at it that way : with DD first minor trait vs everything else, you get one extra dodge. That’s it. The fight can last 2s or it can last 2 hours, you get one extra dodge.

With old Feline Grace, assuming you never let endurance go to waste. In the course of a 2 hour fight, it gives you 300 extra dodges. What is better : 1 extra dodge or 300?

.

That is true no argument there, however if you scale the time frame down to a more realistic number, you can barely tell the difference.

In a 60s time frame, Feline Grace’s advantage is only 1 extra dodge.

stof.9341:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Now tell me how the old Feline Grace is better than having 150 endurance?

Are you the kind of people that won’t see the benefit of having 33% damage mitigation compared to having 50% more HP?

Here’s the hint. Once you dodge three times, you use Signet of Agility. What does it mean?

- With Feline Grace, you’ll be able to dodge 3 times again with a small pause.
- With the DD minor trait, well Signet of Agility gives 100 endurance so you’ll be able to dodge twice only.

Net result : 1 nearly full dodge advantage for Feline Grace.

That has nothing to do with what’s being compared.

You can’t even dodge 3 times in a row with Feline Grace, more like dodge twice pause, then dodge again.

If we put it in the same time frame, both traits allow for 5 dodges using Signet of Agility — albeit DD’s trait is even better since the old Feline Grace has to pause after 2 dodges before dodging for the 3rd time, while DD can dodge 5 times in a row without pause.

PopeUrban.2578:

@Vincent

You literally said this was directly aimed at persecuting the customer.

That is the basis of your argument. Literally “they nerfed acro so they could sell it back to us”

Are you sure you’re accusing the right person?

Despite all evidence presented to the contrary, which you have refuted with nothing more than “I believe they are liars until something makes it in to the game”

Wow, pro-quotes man. Ever learn how to quote people?

You have just proven that you are not an honest person.

My toxic comments are an illustration of the logical process that leads to your conclusion. Just because B happens after A does not mean A caused B.

Your comment is called Strawman fallacy. A gross misrepresentation of my argument.

I’m not being toxic for the sake of being toxic. I’m doing it to hold a mirror. Apperently I just don’t own a clear enough mirror to allow you to recognize your reflection. Thus, I apologise for those comments as they were wasted words that accomplished nothing.

They are garbage, that’s what they are. They add nothing to the discussion other than to ad hom.

The fact remains: Every expansion that adds build options is just as pay to win as this one.

Are you admitting that this expansion is a “pay-to-win” just like other expansions of other games?

lol. Do you even read what you wrote before you post?

Any other belief is a fabrication. WoW expansions are all directly pay to win in the worst way. You are literally 10 levels behind before you buy them. SC2 expansions add new units on top of existing ones.

What other developers do in their games has no bearing on what ArenaNet do to their game. What I’m comparing is that the changes to the builds are available to everyone with or without the expansion, thus effectively remove the disparity among the players.

Perhaps this concept is too much for you to comprehend.

Even Anet’s own stance on making campaigns truly optional in GW1 ultimately didn’t work that way. I’m going to assume you were around for the release of factions and actively playing PvP. Tell me you could play competitively on a prophecies only account a week after factions release.

It never changes the fact that gating skills behind an expansion is perceived to be pay-to-win.

You could get by, and perhaps fill a meta role if you were the only guy on your team without it, but by and large options = power.

Meaning pay-to-win. You’re just keep proving my point.

It’s absolutely not okay that acro can’t stand on its own. You’re trying to burn down DD in stead of taking the far more sensible approach of buffing acro’s functionality so it’s a viable alternative to SA on a non-elite built. We even have a thread currently talking about that which I notice you haven’t contributed to.

Now I think you’re talking to the wrong person. I don’t dislike DD because of what happen to Acro, that was never my stand.

Acro should have been what DD is and DD should have introduced a far more better spec what it is now.

It seems you’re more interested in complaining than offering suggestions to remedy the problem.

Sigh, really? Feel free to read all my history post and tell me if you’re being an honest person.

Again I ask you, if you were in charge, what would you do to fix acro so it can stand on its own in a post HoT world?

You wouldn’t even ask this question if you have read my history posts — the answer is there.

Ensign.2189:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Yet Daredevil gets 150 Endurance (which what Feline Grace was) and a whole plethora of other source of vigor, endurance, and evades.

Daredevil gets +50 endurance up front and +50 when you steal. There are traits to give a modest amount of endurance when you use a physical skill and when you use initiative on a staff skill (which is an evade-light weapon). There are 0 sources of vigor and no additional evades from the traits.

I’ve rephrased that already. I thought when I posted “other source” it was understandable that I meant other traits. See my correction above.

Daredevil does not give anything even remotely close to the same amount of evasion as the old Acrobatics – if you bother to do the math, new Acrobatics plus Trickery plus Daredevil (that is, all three trait lines) is still well behind what old Acrobatics plus Trickery did, and roughly on par with what old Acrobatics did on its own.

Let’s do the math.

Feline Grace effectively refunds 15 endurance, thus the cost of 50 endurance per dodge effectively now cost 35 — which allows for roughly 3 dodges with a full endurance bar. Three dodges costs 105 endurance under Feline Grace, meaning after dodging twice, you have to wait a bit before you can perform the 3rd dodge.

Now tell me how the old Feline Grace is better than having 150 endurance?

In fact, the +50 endurance up front and +50 endurance on steal, when combined with the trickery recharge, is barely on par with what the old Feline Grace did on its own – and they don’t play anywhere near as nicely with vigor as Feline Grace did.

Feline Grace on its own allows for 3 dodges — 150 endurance allows for 3 dodges.

Which part is confusing here?

Claims that Daredevil is the old Acrobatics are highly exaggerated and not grounded at all in what the new traits actually say they do.

Nobody is claiming that. The claim is, Daredevil is what Acrobat is supposed to be if ArenaNet have been honest and not have told us that they nerf Acro to control the number of evades, when in fact they are bringing some of the mechanic back as an Elite Spec.

PopeUrban.2578:

Vincent, did you seriously just say an expansion was a “pay to win” mechanic?

No I didn’t. What I said is that the disparity would make it look that way if the new spec dominated PvP.

Read carefully next time.

Also, your previous $50 purchase of the base game is going free to play according to the IGN early reveal.

That’s right, this was all a huge ploy to get you to spend $50 on their game and then give it to everyone else for free.

I could careless about what they do with their core game. You’re assuming that I am one of those who complaints about that. Sorry to disappoint you.

As I’ve mentioned, I value the product with its merit — you know what that means right?

They’re also in collusion with your power company. Given the evidence it is clear that daily login rewards and achievements exist solely to make you turn on your computer and paw money to your power company. Anet probably gets a cut of that. I mean it costs power to run the computer, and you have to run the computer to get your login reward, thus it follows that the only reason login rewars exist is to make you waste power, right?

If you’re going to insult a reasonable complaint at least make it believable and not spew garbage all over and stinking up the place.

It’s impossible that it isn’t a direct causal relationship aimed at persecuting you, the customer.

That is your opinion which is not shared by anyone who has a reasonable complaint.

Your post, sir Pope, is the very definiton to toxicity.

Auesis.7301:

Daredevil is allowed to be super strong evasively BECAUSE it’s Elite. As in, you couldn’t take it with another Elite Spec down the line and have the best of everything ever. You can take Acrobatics whenever you want with anything because it’s a Core Spec. Acrobatics now has its own place in assisting with evasive playstyles but doesn’t hold you up completely on its own. FG was ridiculous. Was it overnerfed? Perhaps.

That’s the thing, whey nerf Feline Grace to only bring it back and a more “elite” manner? Just because it’s an Elite Spec doesn’t mean that it is allowed to be OP.

Also, DD does NOT have any Vigor. Literally none.

That’s not what I meant. I should probably rephrase.

Yet Daredevil gets 150 Endurance (which what Feline Grace was) in addition to a whole plethora of other source of vigor, endurance, and evades from other traits.

Sorry for the vagueness.

Ensign.2189:

Feline Grace wasn’t hammered to make room for Daredevil – it was hammered because it was wildly overpowered.

Yet Daredevil gets 150 Endurance (which what Feline Grace was) and a whole plethora of other source of vigor, endurance, and evades.

If you think that the old Feline Grace was wildly overpowered, then you should agree that Daredevil will be worst than what Acrobat used to be.

ixon.2496:

Dahkeus.8243:

In this thread:
“Dear Devs, please confirm our conspiracy theory so that we can feel good about trash talking you. Then buff us. Kthnxbai!”

Conspiracy theory? More like a blatant observation!

lol he thinks that having 150 Endurance is not what Feline Grace used to be, thus he thinks it is a conspiracy theory.

People will see what they want to see and be blinded from the truth.

Sigmoid.7082:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sigmoid.7082:

For now, characters will only be able to equip a single elite specialization. Doing so will be as easy as it currently is to swap trait points; simply exit combat and select your new elite specialization, or do it in Heart of the Mists for PvP. We made this system to build upon it, so let the speculation about future specializations begin before we’ve even revealed the first full set!

Sir Vincent III.1286:

A truck with a hitch hook up in case the truck will tow a trailer doesn’t mean that the truck will be used for towing trailer.

Your analogy is terrible. Their last system fits your analogy. Just cause they could add new traits and weapons never meant they did.

They also said that they won’t be doing expansions, instead they will do the LS route…yet we’re talking about one right now.

What they meant to do is not always what’s being done.

The new one is more like lego, k’nex or that entire genre of toys. Why redesign a whole system, sink hours of time, resources and $$$$ into it for the sole purpose of making it expendable, state you will expand upon it and then don’t do that. You have your base item then the clip ons/offs.

I understand the modulation design but it doesn’t necessarily means that they will add new modules. For all we know, they can redesign the whole system again and remove the modulation because they’ve decided that they aren’t going to do that anymore — you want proof? See the Living Story.

They have already stated years ago that they would be adding new weapons to classes, new traits and new things. This is why this change was made and this elite spec system is the way they are going to implement that expansion.

They also said that they won’t be doing expansions, instead they will do the LS route…yet we’re talking about one right now.

Wait I already said that.

Another reason you can only use one spec at a time is to avoid the balancing issues they had with GW1. Every time they expanded they added new skills but since the new skills were not mutually exclusive they needed to balance any new skills against an increasing number of abilities. If you played GW1 you would know because of that so many skills became redundant as expansions went by.

Yet another proof that when they said that they will add new things into the game that never happen. You can only add so much to the game, in case of GW2, it would have been better to fix what we have now than make things more complicated by adding new things to balance. I thought this lesson was learned from GW1 already. More things don’t necessarily means a good thing.

Now with this new system they avoid that problem as well as the problem of having to buy the expansion to stay ahead. Because you can only use one at a time you still need to use two core specs, this means people who didnt buy the expansion or the next expansion/pack with the next set of elite specs isn’t super far out or super lacking because 2/3rd of their build will be accessible to anyone.

Oh please. Everyone can see how OP the Thief Elite Spec is and how mediocre your character will be without it. You seriously think that our current skills and Acrobat can supplement the Daredevil skills and traits? Without the expansion, there will be disparity between those with and those without.

Sorry but cant help but say you are wrong :/

That is your opinion, even though you failed to prove it.

Sigmoid.7082:

For now, characters will only be able to equip a single elite specialization. Doing so will be as easy as it currently is to swap trait points; simply exit combat and select your new elite specialization, or do it in Heart of the Mists for PvP. We made this system to build upon it, so let the speculation about future specializations begin before we’ve even revealed the first full set!

Sir Vincent III.1286:

A truck with a hitch hook up in case the truck will tow a trailer doesn’t mean that the truck will be used for towing trailer.

Amante.8109:

They have gone on the record several times during HoT coverage to say that the plan is for more elite specs going forward, with a maximum of one chosen at a time. Specializations and Mastery Points are literally the linchpin of their plan for the future progression and customization systems of the game.

They also have planned for the game to be about a lot of things that never happen.

Knowing ANet though, we probably won’t see another specialization of any kind for 4-5 years, if ever

lol, if they really do what they said they planned to do, then we wouldn’t be as skeptic about what they say.

It is my opinion that everything they said is BS until I see in game.

Sigmoid.7082:

A – There are no evidence that there will be “other elite specs” nor “you cannot combine elite specs” — that is not factual, that’s your assumption or educated guess.

You are wrong.. when they first announced elite specs they said it was going to be used as a basis to add more elite specs to the game as the future and was one of the reasons we had the whole traitline thing reworked.

Yes it was redesigned to allow future specs, but no mention that they going to add new specs. A truck with a hitch hook up in case the truck will tow a trailer doesn’t mean that the truck will be used for towing trailer.

…Secondly you cant combine elite specs, again this was stated and its the reason that the bottom spec slot has a gold tint/outline, since its where you elite spec has to sit.

Since there are no details of ever adding new Elite Specs for the same profession, where are you getting this information from as if they are going to add new Elite Specs for the same profession?

WindGodGirl.6405:

And that’s exactly what I’m doing.

For my fifty dollars three years ago, I got a fun, fulfilling experience that I still enjoy to this day.

For fifty dollars now, I get to enjoy:

• A new class, complete with it’s own Elite specialization
• A new elite specialization for each profession I already have
• Several new huge zones to explore
• A new, interesting way to travel around said new zones
• More story and lore to enjoy (since I actually care about that sort of thing)
• More legendaries to aim for cuz muh braggin’ rights
• Guild halls, cuz holy crap, finally
• Supporting a game I well and truly enjoy
• A bunch of PvP stuff that I didn’t pay much attention to

I enjoy exploring. I enjoy story. I enjoy just looking at pretty scenery. If all this new, shiny stuff isn’t worth it to you, that’s fine, I guess. But I’m not gonna sit here and pretend that I’m not getting enough bang for my buck, especially since there is likely going to be new stuff added steadily after the initial release, as has been Anet’s way of doing GW2 content since Living Story season one.

Now compare that list to the one you get when you purchased the Core game for the same price.

Get the picture?

VentiGlondi.9830:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

This is the best staff skin for Thief.

Don’t be silly.
Everyone knows Deathwish is the best melee weapon of all time

lol, nice one. You got me convinced — Deathwish it is.

WindGodGirl.6405:

I’m failing to see how fifty dollars is overpriced when that’s how much I’ve seen expansions go for since forever.

It’s not about how much other expansions are going for, it’s about how much contents are you getting from HoT for that price.

You value the product on its own merit not because WoW sold their expansion for $50.

Reilem.5910:

TL; DR Everyone complains about how bad and under powered their class is, thief is no different. Daredevil is unfinished and if a name is enough to make you dislike something, then grow the kitten up.

You got it all wrong. The Thief Elite Spec is not “under powered” rather it is so good that many of us can see the nerf bat swinging a mile away and doubtful that this spec will remain the same post launch.

PopeUrban.2578:

Well thought out post, but its still based on a pair of massive assumptions that have no grounding in reality.

Which are?

I’m not cherry picking facts when I say that:

A – You can not combine elite specs with other elite specs.
B – This is an evade focused spec
C – This was designed for release at the same time as the other specs

Those are the cherries you picked.

A – There are no evidence that there will be “other elite specs” nor “you cannot combine elite specs” — that is not factual, that’s your assumption or educated guess.
B – Not really. Sure there are evades in the spec, but most are dealing AoE and single target damage.
C – Whatever do you mean by this. This is not in your previous post.

There is literally no other logical reason to take from acro and add it back unless, as you suggest, it is a blatant cash grab.

It is undeniably obvious.

For example; When WoW restructured their skills and talents, they didn’t gate it behind an expansion pay wall. Instead they released the changes and the new skills and talents for eveyone so there will be no disparity between those with expansion and those without expansion. The expansion is solely designed for added new contents, not for pay to win Elite Spec.

Obviously, all Thiefs with expansion will build around this Elite Spec seeing how OP it is.

If you truly believe that was the sole intent here, I wonder why you’re playing the game. I wouldn’t be financially supporting a company with such sleazy business practices, and in fact anet has shown repeatedly that it would rather make customers feel like their money is well spent and engender good will to encourage them to spend money than to wring it out of them by making the alternative an incomplete game experience.

I play the game because I’ve paid for it — thought that was obvious. However, would I spend more money? Nope. I’m not buying what I don’t like. If this Elite Spec starts to dominate PvP, it is inevitable that this expansion, if not this game, will be branded as Pay-to-Win game.

Take a look around the achievements and new level up system granting more black lion items, the LW content, the way S1 rewards were added to laurels in stead of the gem store, and the inclusion of a free black lion item once a week from login rewards.

These are necessary change that any game has to make if they want players to keep playing their game. What’s your point?

Take a look at how, when people raised an issue about thebundle price of the expansion they added a char slot to existing accounts that buy it.

People shouldn’t have to raise an issue because ArenaNet have always included two Character Slots with their expansion if you look back at the original Guild Wars. Also, for the record, I’m one of those players that when I like the product, I don’t just buy the regular edition, I’m one of those who buys the Collector’s Edition because I like product and I’m supporting the effort of the Dev.

Anet makes mistakes, and they screw up balance, and they’re often out of touch with their player base in terms of balance and mechanics, but they’re not actually out just to screw over their customers for a quick buck.

Their business design, without monthly fee, begs to differ. They have to make money somehow. Their “mistakes” are costing them sure enough, but this is easily remedied. All the have to do is to stop shaking things up to a point where players can no longer recognize their profession. Stability and consistency are the principles they have abandoned. There was a time whey they believe that you can leave the game for some time and get back where you left off — that’s no longer the case.

Their business model is not sustainable if people don’t WANT to spend money on gems, and people that feel cheated out of their money do not want to spend money on cosmetics and fluff items.

If they make a good product, they don’t need to convince people to spend money because people will be throwing cash at the thier monitor. However, if they make a product that is so obvious as a Pay-to-Win or bait-and-switch, people will be hesitant to spend their money. That is the problem they are facing right now.

Obviously the expansion is overpriced judging by the size of the content and to take something from the core game only to be added back into the expansion is a bad business practice that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Too bad its stupid expensive.

Don’t you see? That is the point. More money for ArenaNet on top of the box price.

Nivik.2961:

Anyone think this could be something they would be interested in seeing in game.?
Imagine, light sabre style grip stored on the back of you’re character, when you grab it, the staff elongates on both sides… Darth Maul style. Maybe without the light sabre laser effect, since we’re more blunt trauma.

A lot of the staff skins are for casters right now so I think if enough people got on board Anet could totally make this happen.

This is the best staff skin for Thief.

stof.9341:

I think hating the new thief elite spec on the basis that it’ll get nerfed is kind of going a little far.

It’s not the Elite Spec is getting the hate, it’s the inevitable PvP “balance”.

I like this Elite Spec a lot, just like I liked the old Trait lines. However due to PvP, my builds are now out of whack. This Elite Spec is destined to get nerfed in the name of PvP balance. This is the part I hate.

PopeUrban.2578:

They nerfed acro because they felt it was overpowered in the current meta (I don’t agree with them for the record) but they don’t feel it is overpowered in the new meta derived from every other elite spec being in that mix.

I doubt this to be factual since the new Elite Spec of other profession has nothing that can deal with 24/7 evasion from the Thief’s Elite Spec.

Endless evasion is a problem in the current meta and it will stay as a problem in the new meta. Nothing will change and the end result is a major nerf to the new Thief’s Elite Spec.

What a Warrior’s Berserker Spec will do against something they cannot touch except to QQ until the Thief is nerfed again?

They also probably shifted acro to an e-spec so that it can’t combo with future ranged elite specs that would end up overpowered when combined with it, since by design you can not combine elite specs.

That’s a lot of assumptions there.

They didn’t “nerf acro to sell it back to us”

Sorry but that is a fact. You’re just cherry picking which “facts” you like to call fact.

If they will release the Elite Spec without the need for expansion, just like what other MMO does, then sure, I believe you — but to gate something we’ve paid for when we bought the Core game behind a fifty dollar pay wall is proof that they “nerf acro to sell it back to us”.

They nerfed acro because they felt it was unbalanced in an arena full of nothing but other non-elite specs. They added the elite spec because they felt it was balanced in an arena full of their other elite specs.

That’s not even remotely true. None of the Elite Spec from other professions can handle a 24/7 evader. This Thief Elite Spec is too good to be true and a lot of Thief players can see that. If they release this as is, it is inevitable that it will get a major nerf where the profession is useless again.

They knew they would get this backlash and they did it anyway because in their opinion it was healthier for the game in the long run. Whether that is true or not remains to be seen. I hope it is true, and the build limitations implicit in the elite spec design allow previously unthinkable build variations and styles for every class, including ours.

The latest blog revealed that this Elite Spec is designed for PvE, fine I get it. However, once this spec is used in PvP, without separating the two game mode, this spec will suffer once the balance team “tweaks” the numbers. This is always been the case that’s why a lot of the Thief’s skills, traits, attack animations, and many other bugs exists in PvE. As long as it is balanced in PvP, they could care less what’s going on in PvE even though their own Dev cannot even survive a Fractal run because the numbers are balanced in PvP, but severely underpowered in PvE.

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

…

Conclusion
These skills are just too good to be true and more than likely will be short-lived. It’s just one of those things that they make it look good and get me excited so I’ll fork-up the $50 for the expansion to only watch these skills nerfed to the ground post release.

No thank you.

~snip~

Like as appealing as the elite spec seems… Their previous actions and my doubt in them really holds me from getting the expansion. Like some of the content for the expansion does seem interesting (hopefully will be more so with their hard content announcement), and just the one play-through alone is interesting enough… It’s just, by buying the game, I’m supporting them, and the decision they’ve made and will make… yeah… some I truly can’t support and I’m thinking they will make more that I’m not happy with.

I only play the game because I’ve already paid for it, but yeah, I’m not looking forward to buying the expansion for $50. As far as I can tell, this expansion is only worth $20 to me. Much of their effort was allocated in making the Guild Hall and Stronghold for which I care less about.

I’d gladly pay $20 for the expansion and if I see that they are improving my profession then I’ll gladly buy some vanity items from the Gem Store to support them like I did before. There’s no reason for me to spend $50 on the expansion…this is just an over priced hype trian.

kash.9213:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I still have my doubts and of course I’m only speaking for myself.

As far as I can tell, these changes have been decided way before it is announced, thus no matter how much we try to reason with them, these changes are set in stone.

I suppose you “can” reason with them, but there’s no acknowledgement that they are even listening to reason.

They remind me of Mordin Solus from Mass Effect; “Objection noted, now do what I say”

I get that there are some independent issues with some skills or modifiers but this skill/trait/utility roll out is almost entirely what someone like myself had imagined the thief when the game was announced and is an idea that fits the mold almost feature for feature that people had proposed before, although more of the posts detailed unarmed combat with no weapon, but I don’t think the idea is something Anet ambushed us with, it’s very much what I’ve seen people asking for. I don’t think it’s a stretch to think we can’t reason for some technical changes to clean the spec up a bit before it launches.

That’s how it is. They showcase what people like so that they will pay for the $50 box only to either nerf them to the ground or take them away completely post launch.

Sure they may clean things up before launch, but the concern here is post launch where the real balancing takes place. I won’t be surprised if they add an effect like Revealed to counter excessive evades and call it Exhaustion.

Solori.6025:

Dahkeus.8243:

Ok, totally not following how people think this is lower DPS than sword, but I haven’t looked at the numbers from the in game link. This is what I’m seeing from the tooltips shown on Dulfy compared to the numbers for sword on the wiki:
Staff
AA 1 – 314 dmg, 1/2 sec cast
AA 2 – 329 dmg, 1/2 sec cast
AA 3 – 4x 656 dmg, 1 sec cast

Sword
AA 1: 269 dmg, no cast
AA 2: 269 dmg, 1/2 sec cast
AA 3: 437 dmg, 1/2 sec cast

Now, the after cast of these abilities may throw things off, but I’m not seeing sword as the winner here.

And either way…who knows what the damage will actually be, especially when considering how much the other elite specializations have changed.

There is a comparison on the first page of this thread.
with dagger , sword, and staff visible

The advantage of Staff is the 3rd strike that adds 8s of vulnerability and the multiple strikes that may trigger on-crit effect multiple times (speculation).

Now looking at the Staff skills as a whole, after applying stacks of vulnerability, the other Staff skills, especially Vault, will hit like a truck.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Is this community really that jaded? Anet wouldn’t be reading the forums and listening to us now if it weren’t for the drastic measures taken almost 2 years ago. So they can be reasoned with, it just isn’t easy to do.

I still have my doubts and of course I’m only speaking for myself.

As far as I can tell, these changes have been decided way before it is announced, thus no matter how much we try to reason with them, these changes are set in stone.

I suppose you “can” reason with them, but there’s no acknowledgement that they are even listening to reason.

They remind me of Mordin Solus from Mass Effect; “Objection noted, now do what I say”

Of course they are OP, they need to sell the $50 box — then they will nerf them to the ground like they always do.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Then can the next elite spec be Rifle with an “Elite Shadow Arts Specialization” since almost everyone is onboard with enabling anet’s tactic of nerfing and selling back to us what was nerfed?

I wouldn’t call it “enabling” per se rather it’s just an admission of defeat against people who can’t be reason with. Just like living with a bipolar person, you’re not really enabling the behavior, you’re just accepting the situation and learning to live with it.

ArenaNet is like a decapolar person, we’re being pulled and pushed in 10 different directions.

You can surely see it that way but you can also see it as “Elite Acrobatics Specialization”.

Head – your choice, I prefer the starter hood or cultural mask
Shoulder – Magitech
Chest – Aetherblade or Inquest
Hand – Fused
Legs – your choice
Feet – Magitech

Dyes: depends, because each armor piece comes with different shading of the same color. Just pick the one that matches your preference.

Dahkeus.8243:

As to the elite, I could see approaching an enemy resizing one of them downed allies, then using the first two parts of the chain to interrupt and knock then away, then stomping the downed enemy with part 3. That would be epic!

You don’t knock them away, you knock them up (see Launch: 0). The attack animation, as I picture it in my head, is similar to Naruto’s “Lions Barrage”.

First impression on the datamined skills.

Staff skills
Auto attack — the numbers are better than the sword and the vulnerability in the end is fine too. However, the 1s cast time might be too long to actually connect with the strike. Obviously, this is a skill designed for PvE.

Stealth attack — it’s nice, but the weapon set has no access to stealth. Similar problem we have with x/P weapon set. They really need to get rid of the “stealth attack” and change it to “flanking attack”, which requires positionting instead of stealth.

Weakening Charge — this is actually a pretty good skill

Debilitating Arc — this skill will definitely get nerfed or have its cost around 5-6 initiatives. There’s just too much defense in this skill; anti-immob, roll, and evade.

Dust Strike — this is the most boring skill in the set. It should be a projectile finisher to make it even remotely worth the initiative cost. This is not Black Powder where you can blind up to 5 enemies around you that pulses for 4s. This is in front of you that only blinds up to 3 targets. However the damage is not bad.

Vault — finally teleport that is not restricted by pathing. The damage is not bad either.

Healing Skill
Channeled Vigor — I’m mixed on this skill. On one hand, it’s a really nice heal, however on the other hand, Thief has a low max HP that most of the healing potential will be wasted as overheal. If we gain Protection while channeling, then it would be worth taking in certain situation.

Utility Skills
Bandit’s Defense — this is a nice stun breaker skill given that it only has 10s cooldown. It would probably be nerfed anyway because Thief cannot have this kind of skill. Thief needs to melt in seconds.

Fist Flurry — this is definitely a short lived skill. If they didn’t nerf this to the ground, they would have to completely redesign this or remove it from game. I can already see the combos I can do with this skill. I love it a lot and because I love, ArenaNet will take it away. Their track record is my proof.

Distracting Daggers — now this seems incomplete. “Equip daggers” implies that this skill becomes “dagger skill” that functions like a Mesmer Mantra seeing that it has “number of casts” and “active duration”. If so, then we have another skill that is a candidate for nerf. The potential lockdown of a target is so high with this one especially when it makes the interrupted skill have increased cooldown. A well-timed interrupt on a heal skill makes this too good for ArenaNet to keep.

Impairing Daggers — ah, the original GW Dancing Daggers with a GW2 touch. Very strong, which means it will be nerfed. That’s just too much damage for 25s cooldown and if traited with Brawler’s Tenacity, this will cause a tsunami of QQ that we’ve never seen before.

Elite Skill
Impact Strike — if traited with Brawler’s Tenacity, this skill is available every 32s. This is just too good that it feels like ArenaNet is baiting me to purchase HoT because of these awsome skills to only nerf them after taking my money.

Conclusion
These skills are just too good to be true and more than likely will be short-lived. It’s just one of those things that they make it look good and get me excited so I’ll fork-up the $50 for the expansion to only watch these skills nerfed to the ground post release.

No thank you.

Daendur.2357:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

There’s nothing Thief about these line of traits — they should have just made a new profession and call it Whirling Dervish or Monk.

because a rifle is so much thiefy, right ?

I was on the Focus/Arcane-Thief camp tyvm.

pepper.6179:

just call it dragon killer lol

You’re not far off — although, rather Dragon Slayer.

There’s actually two ways to slay a dragon: Pierce its heart with a spear, or stab it behind their head with a dagger.

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sagat.3285:

Doggie.3184:

Sagat.3285:

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Zero Day.2594:

I know what the new elite spec should be called!!!!
Acrobat!!!

I mean, some do use staffs in their performances…

Like those who balance on a wire and plummet to their death…

Ah…. that’s why they’re DareDevils, daring enough to do that.

*Dare Devils.

It’s only one word.

You can always misspell it using “Deer-DeVille”

That sounds… so redneck…

in frakt shion coming in 3…2…1…

I haven’t had those for a while…

Sagat.3285:

Doggie.3184:

Sagat.3285:

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Zero Day.2594:

I know what the new elite spec should be called!!!!
Acrobat!!!

I mean, some do use staffs in their performances…

Like those who balance on a wire and plummet to their death…

Ah…. that’s why they’re DareDevils, daring enough to do that.

*Dare Devils.

It’s only one word.

You can always misspell it using “Deer-DeVille”

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Zero Day.2594:

I know what the new elite spec should be called!!!!
Acrobat!!!

I mean, some do use staffs in their performances…

Like those who balance on a wire and plummet to their death…

Ah…. that’s why they’re DareDevils, daring enough to do that.

(gust of wind) → weeeee → kursplat!!

Zero Day.2594:

I know what the new elite spec should be called!!!!
Acrobat!!!

I mean, some do use staffs in their performances…

Like those who balance on a wire and plummet to their death…

I am very disappointed that they are giving a ranged-hungry profession another melee weapon when there’s so much possibility for a ranged weapon that still consistent for being a Thief. There’s nothing Thief about these line of traits — they should have just made a new profession and call it Whirling Dervish or Monk.

Also it is very hypocritical of them for nerfing Acrobat and S/D saying that Thief gets too much dodge/evade and then make a trait line built around evading and dodging.

Whatever, this is another reason why I’m not buying the expansion — and no I don’t like Revenant.

Ricky.4261:

Every class forum is the same, crying about how their elite spec is terrible, or if their elite spec isn’t the second coming of jesus that they will re-roll revenant. I for one like the name Daredevil, perhaps we should wait and see what the elite spec actually does before proposing our own (95% terrible) alternative names.

Regardless of what the Elite Spec is…everyone will roll a Revenant.

The only ones who wouldn’t are those who don’t have the expac — like me.

Any weapon, metal or wood, are meant to break in combat, that’s why in any military campaign, the army will always have blacksmith around to forge the weapons — the in game repair anvil reflects this.

arenta.2953:

Maugetarr.6823:

arenta.2953:

Slowmelt.8547:

arenta.2953:

Slowmelt.8547:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Blunt weapons are not significantly better against heavy armor, that is a common misconception. Rapiers are specially made against heavy armor. A well-made rapier can even pierce a heavy armor, otherwise the wielder will try to find weak points on the armor and exploit it — which mean, it can deal critical damage.

Blunt weapons, on the other hand, can only stop the heavy armored target by knocking the target down — not necessarily dealing damage — critical or otherwise. Critical hits from blunt weapons are only possible against non-heavy armor target.

Instead of a full response, I will simply provide you a link to a video of an untrained, unfit man with a cheap hammer turning both historical and modern helmets into scrap:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CZEAcTaogVY#t=161

Blunt weapons of various types were specifically used to counter armor because armor padding provides very little aid when the armor crumples in on you.
More importantly, staves used properly can strike just as hard as hammers.

until the staff breaks in half cause its wood

and the hammer continues smashing cause its metal

You really ought not underestimate wood as a material.
It is very stern stuff.

sure its sturdy…..but it doesnt last as long as metal.

and if you wack it against hard stuff like rocks or armor. its going to cause less dmg than a warhammer or mace.
and break before the warhammer or mace. (while warhammer and mace will mostly just get a few dents)

Wouldn’t metal endpieces (like those shown on the artwork) solve that problem?

nope. they lack the MAJOR important factors that make warhammer effective.

aka WEIGHT.

If I can knockback a huge Mordrem with a stick that I stole from them…

arenta.2953:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Slowmelt.8547:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Blunt weapons are not significantly better against heavy armor, that is a common misconception. Rapiers are specially made against heavy armor. A well-made rapier can even pierce a heavy armor, otherwise the wielder will try to find weak points on the armor and exploit it — which mean, it can deal critical damage.

Blunt weapons, on the other hand, can only stop the heavy armored target by knocking the target down — not necessarily dealing damage — critical or otherwise. Critical hits from blunt weapons are only possible against non-heavy armor target.

Instead of a full response, I will simply provide you a link to a video of an untrained, unfit man with a cheap hammer turning both historical and modern helmets into scrap:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CZEAcTaogVY#t=161

Blunt weapons of various types were specifically used to counter armor because armor padding provides very little aid when the armor crumples in on you.
More importantly, staves used properly can strike just as hard as hammers.

Meh, did you even notice how many times he has to hit the helmet?

The helmets only bent because the dummy is rigid — that’s like someone is trying to headbutt an incoming hammer. lol.

If that helmet is on a person, the body will react to the impact and will naturally cushion it by moving the head away from the impact point. That’s how heavily armored knights survive back in those times.

The only real value of hammer or any blunt weapons is to topple or knock down a heavy armored knight where it would be impossible for the knight to get up. Staves are mainly used for tripping and disarming. Blunt weapons are used for their stopping power, not for dealing damage — critical or otherwise.

except for stuff like great axes or greatswords

which combine sharp weapons with weight of blunt weapons

so while it neither excels at cutting, or at blunt dmg.

it does a pretty good job of doing a mix of both.

Yes, they are specially designed for crushing bones.

Slowmelt.8547:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Blunt weapons are not significantly better against heavy armor, that is a common misconception. Rapiers are specially made against heavy armor. A well-made rapier can even pierce a heavy armor, otherwise the wielder will try to find weak points on the armor and exploit it — which mean, it can deal critical damage.

Blunt weapons, on the other hand, can only stop the heavy armored target by knocking the target down — not necessarily dealing damage — critical or otherwise. Critical hits from blunt weapons are only possible against non-heavy armor target.

Instead of a full response, I will simply provide you a link to a video of an untrained, unfit man with a cheap hammer turning both historical and modern helmets into scrap:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CZEAcTaogVY#t=161

Blunt weapons of various types were specifically used to counter armor because armor padding provides very little aid when the armor crumples in on you.
More importantly, staves used properly can strike just as hard as hammers.

Meh, did you even notice how many times he has to hit the helmet?

The helmets only bent because the dummy is rigid — that’s like someone is trying to headbutt an incoming hammer. lol.

If that helmet is on a person, the body will react to the impact and will naturally cushion it by moving the head away from the impact point. That’s how heavily armored knights survive back in those times.

The only real value of hammer or any blunt weapons is to topple or knock down a heavy armored knight where it would be impossible for the knight to get up. Staves are mainly used for tripping and disarming. Blunt weapons are used for their stopping power, not for dealing damage — critical or otherwise.