Guild Wars 2

Kocoff.7582:

@Shadowstep, I think i said ealier Shadowstep 20 sec being fine.. I stand corrected, 30 seconds should be lowest. Vincent ! you were against my Bandit’s defense back to 10 but you want Shadowstep down to 20 seconds :p. come on bruv.

My opinion about BD was before the Engi’s reveal. After the reveal, I agree with anything that will improve the Thief’s experience which includes the BD’s CD to 10s.

Opinion changes with new facts.

Tarkan.5609:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

- Starting with restoring Feline Grace where it refunds 15 endurance on dodge.

- Reduce the cooldown of Shadowstep to 20s.

- Remove casting time from Sword #2 (Infiltrator’s Return ).

- Remove Reveal from Thief skills — if you need to, I’m ok with adding CD to stealth attacks (i.e. add 3s CD to Backstab).

- Add Shadow’s Refuge to grant Stability.

- Lastly, P/P Unload to have Ankle Shot and Ricochet as baseline part of the weaponskill.

I hope you find these reasonable tradeoffs.

• @ Feline Grace: Let it refund 15 endurance on a successful dodge (not evade!). It was too strong pre patch and the successful-dodge-part gives it a more skill based and active defense.

I agree that it was too strong pre-patch within the pre-patch meta. However, looking at the upcoming meta from HoT, this needs to be reverted back since this has severely crippled the Thief’s survivability.

Just look at the Dragonhunter, despite its name, the skills the Guardian gets from this trait has too much survivability on top of a lot of condition damage. Compare that to what we get from DD, we have to successfully evade, not dodge, to get something out of the trait.

The hoops that we have to jump into are unfair and unnecessary while other professions get survivability even when just pressing random keys.

• @ Shadowstep: 20s? For port, port back + condi clear? if you look at blink (30s, only port) or lightning flash (30s, port and dmg), 30-35s seems better. It’s an often used ability though and i’d ratherhave underused abilities (Roll for initiative for example) get buffed

Those professions have other ways to cleanse conditions, Thieves do not. Steal is approx. 21s CD and this utility skill simply matches the shadowstep capability of Steal.

Again, with professions focusing on Chill this coming meta, Shadowstep needs its CD reduced to 20s — or some odd number between 20 and 25 but not 25 or over.

• @ Infiltrator’s Return: remove the cast time, but it shouldn’t be activateable if youre disabled, similar to mesmers torch #4

Again, the purpose of the nerf on Sword #2 was based on the pre-patch meta that is no longer relevant to the upcoming meta. If I can use Steal while disabled, it makes no sense why I can’t activate Sword #2’s return.

• @ Reveal: don’t like that suggestion, after all every single class gets revealed while attacking out of stealth. other classes reveal skills should only make you visible though, while still allowing you to gain the boni from stealth (apart from the actual invisibility)

This countermeasure should not been part of the Thief’s skill. This should be part of the other profession’s skills. If they want to counter stealth, then they should bring this skill — Thief shouldn’t be punishing themselves for using their mechanic. It needs to be removed from the Thief’s skills and keep Revealed debuff on non-Thieves. Other professions are not master of the shadows after all.

• @ SR: why exactly Stability? what would you gain from that? I’d rather get protection or resistance for 1s each pulse

Ever gotten knocked out of SR before? That’s why.

We shouldn’t be forced to waste endurance by dodging inside SR, it is called “refuge” for a reason thus it needs to grant refuge as it should.

• @ Unload: Nothing wrong with that, D/D #3,#4+#5 and P/P need a rework though anyway (even though for C&D it would suffice to lower the dmg a little bit while reducing the ini to 5 and giving it a small radius blind)

Normally I would disagree with blind on CnD, but at this point, I would agree with anything that will improve the Thief experience post-HoT release.

Ghotistyx.6942:

I’m glad OP had a severe lack of statement comprehension from Karl’s explanation. OP was so gracious as to misinterpret the intent that they made a post about it. Better yet, they cherry picked examples from a completely unrelated trait line to try and prove an erroneous point.

Thanks

His explanation was acknowledged as part of one of my questions that you obviously skimmed to make such an unproductive and unrelated comment.

Care to explain how the Core trait lines are not related to this design philosophy? As far as the design decisions that were made on the DD spec that they follow such belief, yet failed to incorporate this belief to other trait lines.

My question is why?

Why must there be two types of philosophy when it comes to the Core vs Elite traits?

You, sir, are the very example of what you have described in your post.

Thank you for your contribution.

Kocoff.7582:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Poliator.7021:

For example, on yours about Critical Strikes. It is a trait line that focuses on “improving” critical chance/damage benefits for the Thief, so keeping in mind that it is a purely offensive trait line:

So what’s Invigorating Precision doing in this trait line if it is “purely” an offensive line?

Adept: There isn’t any survivability, but I’d say there is utility on the Signet trait: it adds to one skill type Access to might and a reduced recharge. (If it’s good or under powered is another talk).

Adding Might is not utility, that’s damage. Adding Stability, removing cripple, and stun break are utilities.

Master: Here, I’d say that both Sundering Strikes and Ankle shots are a mix of damage and utility. Ankle Shots we can even say it helps survivability because it cripples the enemy, so you can get away more safely, as well as getting onto them. Sundering Strikes is more of a soft party buff, as everyone would benefit from the vulnerability. (Again, if traits are underpowered or good, is another topic).

You have an odd way of defining what survivability is. Protection and healing are considered survival skills, not cripple. Sundering Strikes doesn’t remove conditions nor replenish Initiative nor refund endurance…so no, it’s not a utility skill.

Grandmaster: There we have a raw surivivability trait and two “damage” traits. If No Quarter Fury+Ferocity group interaction wasn’t nerfed, I’d even say it has group utility (as a buff).

Buffs are not utility, they are either damage or survival.

As an example of a group utility skill, take a look at “Shake it Off!”/“Shug it off!”

It depends on how you look at things and if you agree with their Philosophies.

I’m sorry but I don’t agree with your perspective.

I think that Critical Strikes needs some work, as well as Acrobatics but they both accomplish “at some extent” what Karl talked about. That’s what I like to think at least.

No they don’t. As I have listed above, this design philosophy sounds more like an excuse than a rule.

Well Vincent you were a little harsh with Poliator, but I must admit that your critics are on point.

I tried to be gentle in defending my premise, however changing the perspective doesn’t alway change the facts, just the interpretation.

We tend to confuse Utility/ Damage and Survival a lot. I believe one buff from a specific category can help in the other.

By that I mean, that I think inflicting Cripple can help me Survive a great deal, even though Regen and Protection are the true life savers.

So is running away and logging out of the game, but that is not what we’re talking about.

When it comes to designing traits, it’s truly crucial to understand the difference between Utility Damage and Survival. Vincent made good examples.

But we should focus back on Escapist’s Absolution…. please.

Yes, please.

Poliator.7021:

For example, on yours about Critical Strikes. It is a trait line that focuses on “improving” critical chance/damage benefits for the Thief, so keeping in mind that it is a purely offensive trait line:

So what’s Invigorating Precision doing in this trait line if it is “purely” an offensive line?

Adept: There isn’t any survivability, but I’d say there is utility on the Signet trait: it adds to one skill type Access to might and a reduced recharge. (If it’s good or under powered is another talk).

Adding Might is not utility, that’s damage. Adding Stability, removing cripple, and stun break are utilities.

Master: Here, I’d say that both Sundering Strikes and Ankle shots are a mix of damage and utility. Ankle Shots we can even say it helps survivability because it cripples the enemy, so you can get away more safely, as well as getting onto them. Sundering Strikes is more of a soft party buff, as everyone would benefit from the vulnerability. (Again, if traits are underpowered or good, is another topic).

You have an odd way of defining what survivability is. Protection and healing are considered survival skills, not cripple. Sundering Strikes doesn’t remove conditions nor replenish Initiative nor refund endurance…so no, it’s not a utility skill.

Grandmaster: There we have a raw surivivability trait and two “damage” traits. If No Quarter Fury+Ferocity group interaction wasn’t nerfed, I’d even say it has group utility (as a buff).

Buffs are not utility, they are either damage or survival.

As an example of a group utility skill, take a look at “Shake it Off!”/“Shug it off!”

It depends on how you look at things and if you agree with their Philosophies.

I’m sorry but I don’t agree with your perspective.

I think that Critical Strikes needs some work, as well as Acrobatics but they both accomplish “at some extent” what Karl talked about. That’s what I like to think at least.

No they don’t. As I have listed above, this design philosophy sounds more like an excuse than a rule.

My name is Sir Vincent III – a human noble who steals from other nobles.

I stole from an Elementalist once, it looks like a suppository, I stabbed the Elementalist up their donkey and lo – they chill.

That’s the only positive memory I’ve had with my Thief.

DeceiverX.8361:

I’m saying that it then doesn’t violate any class mechanics.

DeceiverX.8361:

Initiative, Steal, and dual-skills (albeit bad), and Stealth attacks on the other hand, are the thief’s class mechanics.

If you can’t access Stealth Attacks because you were denied by anti-stealth, how is that not a violation?

According to Karl;

Karl McLain.5604:

Traits:
This iteration was mostly bug fixes. I’ve seen a lot of feedback on how Escapist’s Absolution should be baseline. It is the case that we believe this trait is powerful enough that it should be a choice in the trait line between damage, survivability and utility, rather than just a given.

So let’s look at this design philosophy if this has been applied in our Core traits.

Critical Strikes – Major Adept
Flawless Strike – Deal increased critical damage while your health is above the threshold.
Side Strike – Gain bonus critical-hit chance when hitting a foe from behind or the side.
Signets of Power – Gain might when activating a signet. Signet recharge is reduced.

I fail to see where are “survivability” and “utility” from these choices. Next;

Critical Strikes – Major Master
Ankle Shots – Critical hits with pistols and harpoon guns have a chance to cripple foes. Pistol and harpoon attacks deal increased damage to crippled foes.
Practiced Tolerance – Gain ferocity based on your precision.
Sundering Strikes – Critical hits have a chance to cause vulnerability.

Again, I fail to see where are the “survivability” and “utility” from these choices. Lastly;

Critical Strikes – Major Grandmaster
Hidden Killer – Gain bonus critical-hit chance while in stealth.
Invigorating Precision – You are healed for a percentage of outgoing critical hit damage.
No Quarter – Landing a critical hit while under the effects of fury increases the duration of fury. Gain increased ferocity while under the effects of fury.

Now this is different from the rest because this one has no “utility”, one “heal” and two “damage” traits. So I begin to wonder how closely are the designer following this Design Philosophy because from that post from Karl, it sounds like an excuse not to improve the Thief’s gameplay by making Escapist Absolution baseline.

Does this philosophy only apply to the DD traits? If so, why?

Why aren’t we getting the same design philosophy to our Core traits?

Why do you have to create/follow different kinds of design philosophy for each trait?

If the Core traits were designed (when you had the opportunity) with the same approach that you have with the DD trait, then we wouldn’t even have this kind of discussion because what we can’t get from DD, we’ll try and get it from the other trait line. However, there is no such choice from other trait line.

If you believe that the DD trait line is powerful enough, do you also believe the same way with Acrobatics? How about Shadow Arts?

With all the conditions, CC, and anti-stealth coming out from other professions, the design process that was conducted on the behalf of the Theif is unfair and imbalance.

If you maintain the belief that this EA is perfect where it is, then do us a favor and improve our other traits.

- Starting with restoring Feline Grace where it refunds 15 endurance on dodge.

- Reduce the cooldown of Shadowstep to 20s.

- Remove casting time from Sword #2 (Infiltrator’s Return ).

- Remove Reveal from Thief skills — if you need to, I’m ok with adding CD to stealth attacks (i.e. add 3s CD to Backstab).

- Add Shadow’s Refuge to grant Stability.

- Lastly, P/P Unload to have Ankle Shot and Ricochet as baseline part of the weaponskill.

I hope you find these reasonable tradeoffs.

DeceiverX.8361:

Again to clarify: stealth is not the thief’s class mechanic. Primary survival or not, it isn’t a mechanic belonging solely to the thief nor was it designed to be.

Initiative, Steal, and dual-skills (albeit bad), and Stealth attacks on the other hand, are the thief’s class mechanics.

There’s a trait line that’s called Shadow Arts who wants to say hello — it’s been here since the beginning — was working well in the beginning — the addition of reveal ruined everything about it.

When it comes to a burst, 2s attack sequence is more favorable than a 3s attack sequence. I agree that in the battlefiled that other things can happen, but the OPs build is built around proc’ing the sigils and he got better chance of proc’ing those with a dagger.

I mean his power is only 2050, so he’s relying for the procs to bring in damage. I guess he got more problem with his build than just the sigils and weapons.

Kocoff.7582:

^^^

That made me lol, but 10 seconds is necessary. PLEASE GUYS WE NEED THE SUPPORT.

After the BS (bologna sandwich) I’ve seen coming out of Engi’s Elite, I fully support the 10s CD — phuck balance and fairness — nobody from other professions really cares about balance and fairness, why should we?

All these discussions we’ve had so that our profession will not be OP are thrown out the window — the gloves are off.

What: Remove Reveal from Thief Skills
Reason: With the increase in revealing/anti-stealth skills, there is no longer a valid reason for Thief to reveal themselves after an attack (i.e. Backstab) or getting knocked out of stealth (i.e Shadow Refuge). If the development team will continue to go on this direction (giving anti-stealth to non-Thief profession), then this should warrant the removal of self-revealing skills and if other professions want to counter stealth from Thief, then they should bring these anti-stealth with them. It is not fair nor balanced that Thief has self-reveal skill while other professions have anti-stealth skills. It’s a bunch of B.S. (balogna sandwiches).

Just let it go.

Refill Initiatives on successful block using BD.

Add AoE blind on Vault.

Add slow on Weakening Charge.

Make Debilitating Arc actually debilitating the targets by applying Cripple and Torment on them.

Make the Elite DD Skill turn the Thief invulnerable while doing the combo sequence.

3rd staff auto-attack not only block projectiles but also melee attacks.

DD traits heal and cleanse on dodge, not on evade.

Pulmonary Impact and Mug can crit.

Feline Grace restored.

“It’s funny how some distance makes everything seem small
And the fears that once controlled me can’t get to me at all
It’s time to see what I can do
To test the limits and break through
No right, no wrong, no rules for me
I’m free”

Kocoff.7582:

With this apocalyptic mess going around us, we need this guys. Not even joking, we need every extra second or fraction of a second we can get out of this.

Might as well make BD refill all Initiatives on a successful block.

Black Frog.9274:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The funny thing about this is that, while Karl is concern about balance (not letting Thief be overpowered — which I support), other Devs went wild with their profession development and just letting it all out of control.

I think Karl and his team need to loosen up also and let the Thief off the leash — I mean just open your eyes and look around you. The Thief profession is suffocating.

“Let it go, let it go
Turn away and slam the door
I don’t care what they’re going to say
Let the storm rage on”

Give us burn and confusion

For starter, Thief skills should not grant reveal. Let other profession’s skill apply reveal, we shouldn’t be applying it to ourselves. Thus, backstabbing will not reveal so we can get back to stealth right away (i.e. BS → CnD →BS). If they want to counter that, then they could use their anti-stealth skills.

The funny thing about this is that, while Karl is concern about balance (not letting Thief be overpowered — which I support), other Devs went wild with their profession development and just letting it all out of control.

I think Karl and his team need to loosen up also and let the Thief off the leash — I mean just open your eyes and look around you. The Thief profession is suffocating.

“Let it go, let it go
Turn away and slam the door
I don’t care what they’re going to say
Let the storm rage on”

Sagat.3285:

Odyssey.2613:

“Hands up, Don’t Nerf.”

“Thief Lives Matter.”

Ooh that’s dirty you can roleplay engi as a cop too wow.

A comic strip where the Devs as cops beating a Thief with a nerf baton just because they stole a Gunk from a beloved Engineer.

Tarkan.5609:

… if you block a melee attack you should be evading while knocking the opponent down.

This one I can support. A 1/4s evade will suffice.

Kocoff.7582:

Wow…. wait up. the Stealth drone lasts 30 seconds and the CD is 30 seconds… The Stealth boon lasts 4 seconds and the interval of application is 3 seconds.

That means in WvW, the Scrapper will be rocking permanent stealth to them and 5 person.

That’s more stealth than a Thief could ever dream of. Permanent stealth roaming?
If you don’t see a flying little gyro miles away you are already dead.

Nice…I guess I’ll start tagging along with an Engineer and let them stealth me instead of me bringing my own stealth skills. It’s gonna be a heck of a combo — 4 DDs and a Scapper. 24/7 KDs, lol.

I really question the competency of the Dev who make these kinds of decisions in profession design. This skill is outright stupid — nevermind the reveal skill.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

And that’s why I run d/p pretty much everywhere…shadow shot gets you out of AoE fast and blinds your target

You can HS your way out of AoE without requiring a target.

and headshot can interrupt nasty skills like meteor shower.

Or Sleight of Hand. Or with my favorite, Scorpion Wire.

Until they fix the /d part of d/d, it just isn’t as competitive against other players.

Competitive in terms of what?

In PvP, Thieves can easily use D/D if they are not subjected to a roaming/capping/decapping duty.

In PvE and WvW, D/D is the best set to use because D/P lacks the ability to tag multiple targets where D/D can easily to that with DB and Dancing Daggers.

Tagging? Shortbow is better than dancing daggers for that, and the mobility is useful anywhere. Shortbow is the alternate weapon for thieves, sort of like necro staff in that regard.

So you’re saying that D/P is so bad at tagging that you have to pull out the Shortbow…ok.

If there is an appropriate target available, shadow shot is both faster and more initiative efficient as a mobility skill than heartseeker.

I disagree. Just by relying on a target makes it weaker.

It also has the blind as a defensive mechanic. Let me turn the question on its head: what benefit do you get from d/d that is not present in d/p?

AoE tagging. I thought I already post that.

Why is needing to pull out a shortbow to tag such a disadvantage? You use the proper weapon for the job. Shortbow is better at tagging than d/d, so for tagging you use shortbow.

Ah, but we’re not comparing D/D with S/B now are we?

D/p is better at roaming and 1v1 than d/d, so for roaming and 1v1 you use that. Why would camping a single weapon be a goal when you have a weapon swap?

Ah, yes 1v1, of course. No one is deying the superiority of D/P in 1v1.

You asked me what D/D can do that D/P cannot and I answered you.

You should always be carrying shortbow. Always. Because thieves get weapon swap (gasp), we’re comparing d/p + sb to d/d + sb.

Nope. S/B was never part of our discussion until you realize and acknowledge that D/P sucks at tagging.

Why should I trap myself to 10s swapping CD just to tag target? Counter-productive since I can tag them without swapping.

Using dancing dagger to tag is stupid and a waste of initiative. You get the same tagging potential as the auto attack on shortbow, and a good deal less than shortbow 2.

lol, not even close. The initiative cost of Dancing Dagger is worth it for the effect it can do.

So basically what you’re trying to say is, it takes both D/P + S/B to do what D/D can do by itself.

That make sense and I totally agree.

There is no reason to camp d/d when you’re tagging.

10s swapping cooldown is a very good reason. Another good reason is proc’ing a sigil.

So, yes, you’re wrong.

The bottom line is that you’re using an inferior weapon set, and wondering why you aren’t doing as well.

The weapon set only seems inferior to those who doesn’t know its value.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

And that’s why I run d/p pretty much everywhere…shadow shot gets you out of AoE fast and blinds your target

You can HS your way out of AoE without requiring a target.

and headshot can interrupt nasty skills like meteor shower.

Or Sleight of Hand. Or with my favorite, Scorpion Wire.

Until they fix the /d part of d/d, it just isn’t as competitive against other players.

Competitive in terms of what?

In PvP, Thieves can easily use D/D if they are not subjected to a roaming/capping/decapping duty.

In PvE and WvW, D/D is the best set to use because D/P lacks the ability to tag multiple targets where D/D can easily to that with DB and Dancing Daggers.

Tagging? Shortbow is better than dancing daggers for that, and the mobility is useful anywhere. Shortbow is the alternate weapon for thieves, sort of like necro staff in that regard.

So you’re saying that D/P is so bad at tagging that you have to pull out the Shortbow…ok.

If there is an appropriate target available, shadow shot is both faster and more initiative efficient as a mobility skill than heartseeker.

I disagree. Just by relying on a target makes it weaker.

It also has the blind as a defensive mechanic. Let me turn the question on its head: what benefit do you get from d/d that is not present in d/p?

AoE tagging. I thought I already post that.

Why is needing to pull out a shortbow to tag such a disadvantage? You use the proper weapon for the job. Shortbow is better at tagging than d/d, so for tagging you use shortbow.

Ah, but we’re not comparing D/D with S/B now are we?

D/p is better at roaming and 1v1 than d/d, so for roaming and 1v1 you use that. Why would camping a single weapon be a goal when you have a weapon swap?

Ah, yes 1v1, of course. No one is deying the superiority of D/P in 1v1.

You asked me what D/D can do that D/P cannot and I answered you.

Kocoff.7582:

Yeah Sir Vincent (and others), I get your point but it’s not the best thing like you mention it to be. 10 seconds was fine, it wasn’t OP, it wasn’t a game breaker (if you want to see what gamebreaker is, checkout all the other elite specs for clues). This couldn’t even be considered a block because it doesn’t even block more than 1 attack.
it blocks 1 out of the ranger’s 10 arrows, So let’s keep it real please. _ It’s a stunbreak + Knockdown_, we really cannot categorize this as a block.

Exactly. It’s a 15s stun break or 12s stun break when traited with Brawler’s Tenacity.

I don’t believe that there’s another 15s (12s) stun break out there.

At 10s, it’s too OP because you can bring it down to 8s CD with Brawler’s and with that much stun breaks, it’s not good for the game.

This thing can be life saver, an alternative sustain. Some of us won’t even use it, some will. With all those reveal anti-stealth mechanics forming up around us, we really could use 2 second break/knockdown on a 10 sec CD.

I agree that there is an anti-stealth crusade going on right now, but it doesn’t mean that the Thief should go over power in response. Before pre-HoT, the best stun break we have is either Shadowstep or Roll for Initiative and I doubt that BD will replace those in a competitive setting. So the real value of BD is in PvE and 15s is the right CD for it.

I am just surprised so many people are against something that could benefit the whole profession. 5 seconds is too long for a Thief (with minimal stealth) in combat especially when that change isn’t going to turn us in OP monsters.

When I first saw BD with 10s CD, I already knew that it was too good, thus I agree with a 15s CD. Even in 15s CD, it still benefit the profession but not in an OP way.

Amante.8109:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Most stun breaker are on 60s coold down. I wouldn’t complain or bring too much attention to this skill else it will get nerfed hard.

Pre-HoT, there are 52 forms of stun break in the game. Of those 52, 22 have 60s CDs or higher. That does not qualify as “most” (it’s not even half), and it’s also not accounting for traits that reduce or reset skill cooldowns.

It may not be the “majority” but it is still “most” if you compare the cooldowns, for example 60s vs 30s, there are more 60s than 30s. Then you compare how many 60s vs kitten , etc. Mind you I am speaking within the context of Utility Skills (because that’s what Bandit’s Defense is) per profession. So when I look at the Thief, most of my stun break is at 60s. Looking at the Ele, most of their stun break are in 75s.

You can twist and turn my post all you want, but your post does nothing really.

Let’s not forget that the Berserker is also getting a stun break similar to Bandit’s Defense, and yet it’s staying at 10s CD…

Can it block an attack? Can it knock down?

A skill similar to this is Counterattack (Ranger GS) and it costs them 15s without the stun break.

So compare to that, BD is not something you should complain about.

With all that in mind, Bandit’s Defense could use a few tweaks if they’re wedded to the 15s CD. Personally, I would make the block a rollover skill rather than automatic and extend the duration to 2s. Ideally, it would continue blocking during the kick as well.

You use a weak skill to compare with BD and think that it is justified to make BD an OP skill. Good luck with that one. In other words, I disagree with you.

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

I disagree on the point regarding proccing a sigil with a sword. There a cooldown anyways meaning in a 3 second or 5 second period you will get as many procs off a sword as off a dagger. The build has a 59 percent base crit rate meaning in a 5 or even 3 second period of time math suggest there will be a proc even with slower weapons.

If you were proccing an item with a 1 second cooldown than faster is better. as in a sigil of strength would not be a great fit.

You got double RNG on these sigils (Crit chance + chance to proc on crit) meaning that to reliably proc them, you need a faster weapon — frequency is the key.

Have you even tried to compare them yourself in the Mist?

But if you really believe that the proc rate of the sigil on a sword is the same as on the dagger, then I’ll leave just you to that belief.

You are not doing the math. I never said the proc rate comparable. Dagger will proc FASTER but the cooldown cancels that out.

Proc with a dagger at 1 second. it will not proc again on fire for 4 more seconds no matter how fast it is. In that 4 seconds time your sword will proc. That unless you just not attacking.

his crit rate is 60 percent base meaning with fury 80 percent of attacks will crit. Fire procs at 50 percent meaning in a 5 second period all he needs is 4 hits to get one proc
(4*.8)=3.2 crits 3.2*.5 =1.6.

Now obviously you can get bad rolls all in a row but a understated the number of attacks you will usually do in a 5 second period.

This is the only test that matters. Forget how early in that attack cycle you get a proc with daggers versus sword. How many fire procs do you get every 5 seconds using sword. ? It is not less then dagger.

I believe in math.

You’re missing the point. You’re assuming that both have 100% chance to Crit and 100% chance to proce — that’s not the case.

My point is, the more you attack, the higher you chance to crit and the more crit you make the higher your chance to proc the sigil. Slow weapon will not give you that high of a chance due to double RNG.

EDIT: Ah, you edit it. Well case in point, that 4 attacks from Dagger is done in short amount of time compare to 4 attacks from Sword — meaning less chances to get a crit and a proc in the same time frame.

I never said BOTh have a hundred percent chance to crit. I gave the numbers.

Yeah you edited it, it wasn’t there when I responded. I bet you didn’t see my edit either. lol

Now the time frame is what you are focused on. Not material with the ICD. It might trigger earlier on dagger but then it will not trigger again until the ICD gone.

When I said you need a “faster weapon” and “frequency”, time frame is implied.

Again, the point you’re missing is that the sooner you can put the sigil on CD, the sooner you can proc it again — frequency.

Time frame must acknowledge the cooldown.

The extra speed of the dagger and the frequency at which it strikes is not material when in ICD. The longer an ICD the less that advantage. The speed of the daggers in the AA for 3 attacks is less than a 1 second advantage. The difference in chances to proc is not that great. It there but the longer the ICD the less material it is.

I’ll just repeat myself here, “the sooner you can put the sigil on CD, the sooner you can proc it again — frequency” so yes, the ICD has been acknowledged.

I showed you the math on that players build. All the sword or dagger useruser has to do is get off 4 attacks (assuming fury up) in order to proc a sigil.

The attack sequence of the AA on sword is 2.52 seconds getting three attacks. The sequence on the AA of a dagger is 2.07 seconds a difference of less than half a second. All sword needs is one more attack to get that assured proc via math .45 plus the extra time needed on that next attack . (the full attack squence of the aa on daggers is 4 attacks so sword needs one more) the difference is less than 1 second total.

Now you can certainly use DB on daggers so as to lower the time needed for those 4 attacks but power builds really do not use DB. here the difference would a little over 2 seconds.

You then have to look at who gets more cleaves, which style of combat has a person attacking more frequently and so on.

That gap gets bigger over time.

Let’s assume that you have 100% cri and 100% proc rate and in a 60 seconds time frame, dagger would have proc’d the sigil more than sword.

Basically, the ICD of the sigil on the sword is not just 5s, but aprrox. 5.75s because of how low it is. Looking at it that way, you’ll see that sword’s proc frequency drops off over time in comparison to dagger.

Bllade.1029:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Bllade.1029:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Amante.8109:

I had a couple thoughts on Staff I’d like to share.

People are generally of the opinion right now that Debilitating Arc is of limited usefulness, as the evade back takes you out of melee range. This forces you to spend even more Initiative on Vault or Weakening Charge to get back in after evading if you want to keep doing damage at all. Lest ArenaNet forget, Initiative is a precious resource that Thief never really has enough of.

My suggestion would be to add an effect to Debilitating Arc along these lines: “Your next Weakening Charge within X seconds costs no initiative.”

The only way that DebArc will be used is to give the Theif a breather, meaning when they don’t want to keep doing damage, perhaps heal or cleanse.

What you want is to combo it with other skills, but if you choose to do that, it has to cost you and making other skills cost less will make this skill to powerful because of what it can do.

For the cost of 4 init, you can;
- deals damage
- cleaves upto 3 targets
- evade attack
- gap creator
- break immobilize/cripple
- then heal if you successfully evade

Then you want to make the next gap closer for free? Too much stuff for a cost of 4 initiative don’t you think?

That ability in actuality will cost 8 or more initiative if you stay on staff. Which is 66% of a Thief’s base initiative pool right there. That means to use that combo, you’ll be forced into Trickery. With that it will still cost you over 50% of your initiative just to use those two abilities.

We all pay for the cost of making combos work but making the this to reduce the cost of a skill is not the right way to do this.

Creating a gap as a DD is counter-productive and initiative does not regenerate nearly as quickly as endurance does (im referring to DD endurance regeneration specifically.) Let’s say it stays the same and we swap weapons to main hand sword or dagger. Infiltrators strike and Heartseeker both cost 3 intitative. So to use that ability then switch weapons will cost you a 10 second weapon swap cooldown and 7 initiative. That is very costly for something Withdraw does for you for no initiative cost with a heal, condi removal, evade and a much larger gap opener. Not to mention only an 18 second cooldown.

What this one does that Withdraw can’t do is to be used up to 3 times in a row which will only cost a total of 12s cooldown. And no it’s not counter-productive because there’s no reason to use this skill without reason.

Amante has the right idea but the problem with his/her suggestion is that it kind of forces the player to use that strategy. After every Debilitating Arc everyone would use Weakening Charge if they got that reduced initiative cost. Doesn’t really promote different strategies and tactics.

When I use Withdraw, I close the gap with Steal or Scorpion Wire. You can very well do the same here.

I agree reducing the cost of Weakening Charge after DA isn’t the right way to do this.

The point is that Debilitating Arc is a weaker version of something we already have (Withdraw) on a weapon skill. If you’re going to promote synergy on the Staff initiative cost is going to be the first thing that’s going to shut that weapon’s usefulness down; When we look at initiative cost, it isn’t just the initial cost of one ability we have to consider.

When looking at initiative compared to all the other Thief weapon sets and combinations the Staff is very costly in terms of initiative for the utility provided.

It is counter-productive the minute you seperate yourself from the enemy with a MELEE weapon skill not a utility, not a heal skill a MELEE weapon skill

Let’s compare:

Death Blossom: Evades while stacking bleeds and dealing damage in an AoE area – Still maintains pressure while evading. 4 Initiative.

Shortbow: Disabling Shot – Cripples with an evade at range (This is essentially what the staff is doing for us right now) but the Shortbow is ranged damage. Maintains Pressure – 4 Initiative

Pistol Whip: Stun followed up with high DPS while evading – Maintains Pressure – 5 initiative

Shadow Strike: Apply torment, shadow step away from your enemy (600 range) and deal damage. P/D is RANGED DAMAGE Maintains pressure 4 initiative.

Debilitating Arc: Minor damage, cripple, evade, immobilize removal. – Lose pressure – 4 Initiative

Were going to have to spend something else just to use that ability, whether its a scorpion wire (Utility) Steal (F1) or a Dodge (50 endurance) to close that gap again. All the other weapon sets #3 evade weapon abilities do not require you to do that.

“Fighting yourself and the enemy at the same time is counter-productive and not synergistic within the profession.” – Kruppe (In reference to a Melee weapon ability that costs initiative that takes you out of melee range.)

This doesn’t make any sense.

What’s the reason for using DArc if not to get out of melee range? Just to be flashy?

I mean seriously, if you’re not immobilized, why would you use it?

If you’re immobilized you lose your ability to maintain pressure anyway and this is when you have to use DArc to get out of immob and re-engage.

Have you played a Thief before?

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Bllade.1029:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Amante.8109:

I had a couple thoughts on Staff I’d like to share.

People are generally of the opinion right now that Debilitating Arc is of limited usefulness, as the evade back takes you out of melee range. This forces you to spend even more Initiative on Vault or Weakening Charge to get back in after evading if you want to keep doing damage at all. Lest ArenaNet forget, Initiative is a precious resource that Thief never really has enough of.

My suggestion would be to add an effect to Debilitating Arc along these lines: “Your next Weakening Charge within X seconds costs no initiative.”

The only way that DebArc will be used is to give the Theif a breather, meaning when they don’t want to keep doing damage, perhaps heal or cleanse.

What you want is to combo it with other skills, but if you choose to do that, it has to cost you and making other skills cost less will make this skill to powerful because of what it can do.

For the cost of 4 init, you can;
- deals damage
- cleaves upto 3 targets
- evade attack
- gap creator
- break immobilize/cripple
- then heal if you successfully evade

Then you want to make the next gap closer for free? Too much stuff for a cost of 4 initiative don’t you think?

That ability in actuality will cost 8 or more initiative if you stay on staff. Which is 66% of a Thief’s base initiative pool right there. That means to use that combo, you’ll be forced into Trickery. With that it will still cost you over 50% of your initiative just to use those two abilities.

We all pay for the cost of making combos work but making the this to reduce the cost of a skill is not the right way to do this.

Creating a gap as a DD is counter-productive and initiative does not regenerate nearly as quickly as endurance does (im referring to DD endurance regeneration specifically.) Let’s say it stays the same and we swap weapons to main hand sword or dagger. Infiltrators strike and Heartseeker both cost 3 intitative. So to use that ability then switch weapons will cost you a 10 second weapon swap cooldown and 7 initiative. That is very costly for something Withdraw does for you for no initiative cost with a heal, condi removal, evade and a much larger gap opener. Not to mention only an 18 second cooldown.

What this one does that Withdraw can’t do is to be used up to 3 times in a row which will only cost a total of 12s cooldown. And no it’s not counter-productive because there’s no reason to use this skill without reason.

Amante has the right idea but the problem with his/her suggestion is that it kind of forces the player to use that strategy. After every Debilitating Arc everyone would use Weakening Charge if they got that reduced initiative cost. Doesn’t really promote different strategies and tactics.

When I use Withdraw, I close the gap with Steal or Scorpion Wire. You can very well do the same here.

You can also use bounding dodger to get right back in the battle. It actually easier to make that hit at distance and the amount arc pulls you out of battle can be made up for with a bounding dodge. With the evade and immob break and the potential for all those evade procs, i think this skill fine.

That’s true also.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

And that’s why I run d/p pretty much everywhere…shadow shot gets you out of AoE fast and blinds your target

You can HS your way out of AoE without requiring a target.

and headshot can interrupt nasty skills like meteor shower.

Or Sleight of Hand. Or with my favorite, Scorpion Wire.

Until they fix the /d part of d/d, it just isn’t as competitive against other players.

Competitive in terms of what?

In PvP, Thieves can easily use D/D if they are not subjected to a roaming/capping/decapping duty.

In PvE and WvW, D/D is the best set to use because D/P lacks the ability to tag multiple targets where D/D can easily to that with DB and Dancing Daggers.

Tagging? Shortbow is better than dancing daggers for that, and the mobility is useful anywhere. Shortbow is the alternate weapon for thieves, sort of like necro staff in that regard.

So you’re saying that D/P is so bad at tagging that you have to pull out the Shortbow…ok.

If there is an appropriate target available, shadow shot is both faster and more initiative efficient as a mobility skill than heartseeker.

I disagree. Just by relying on a target makes it weaker.

It also has the blind as a defensive mechanic. Let me turn the question on its head: what benefit do you get from d/d that is not present in d/p?

AoE tagging. I thought I already post that.

Zodryn.4216:

Sir Vincent III.1286

If you sneak attack, RT is a boon.
If you get revealed via Sic ’em, RT is a counterplay.

Does it matter what you call it though? Fine, let’s call it counterplay. I’ll change my request: I want good counterplay.

Then I agree. We need more and good counterplays — RT is not enough.

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

I disagree on the point regarding proccing a sigil with a sword. There a cooldown anyways meaning in a 3 second or 5 second period you will get as many procs off a sword as off a dagger. The build has a 59 percent base crit rate meaning in a 5 or even 3 second period of time math suggest there will be a proc even with slower weapons.

If you were proccing an item with a 1 second cooldown than faster is better. as in a sigil of strength would not be a great fit.

You got double RNG on these sigils (Crit chance + chance to proc on crit) meaning that to reliably proc them, you need a faster weapon — frequency is the key.

Have you even tried to compare them yourself in the Mist?

But if you really believe that the proc rate of the sigil on a sword is the same as on the dagger, then I’ll leave just you to that belief.

You are not doing the math. I never said the proc rate comparable. Dagger will proc FASTER but the cooldown cancels that out.

Proc with a dagger at 1 second. it will not proc again on fire for 4 more seconds no matter how fast it is. In that 4 seconds time your sword will proc. That unless you just not attacking.

his crit rate is 60 percent base meaning with fury 80 percent of attacks will crit. Fire procs at 50 percent meaning in a 5 second period all he needs is 4 hits to get one proc
(4*.8)=3.2 crits 3.2*.5 =1.6.

Now obviously you can get bad rolls all in a row but a understated the number of attacks you will usually do in a 5 second period.

This is the only test that matters. Forget how early in that attack cycle you get a proc with daggers versus sword. How many fire procs do you get every 5 seconds using sword. ? It is not less then dagger.

I believe in math.

You’re missing the point. You’re assuming that both have 100% chance to Crit and 100% chance to proce — that’s not the case.

My point is, the more you attack, the higher you chance to crit and the more crit you make the higher your chance to proc the sigil. Slow weapon will not give you that high of a chance due to double RNG.

EDIT: Ah, you edit it. Well case in point, that 4 attacks from Dagger is done in short amount of time compare to 4 attacks from Sword — meaning less chances to get a crit and a proc in the same time frame.

I never said BOTh have a hundred percent chance to crit. I gave the numbers.

Yeah you edited it, it wasn’t there when I responded. I bet you didn’t see my edit either. lol

Now the time frame is what you are focused on. Not material with the ICD. It might trigger earlier on dagger but then it will not trigger again until the ICD gone.

When I said you need a “faster weapon” and “frequency”, time frame is implied.

Again, the point you’re missing is that the sooner you can put the sigil on CD, the sooner you can proc it again — frequency.

Time frame must acknowledge the cooldown.

The extra speed of the dagger and the frequency at which it strikes is not material when in ICD. The longer an ICD the less that advantage. The speed of the daggers in the AA for 3 attacks is less than a 1 second advantage. The difference in chances to proc is not that great. It there but the longer the ICD the less material it is.

I’ll just repeat myself here, “the sooner you can put the sigil on CD, the sooner you can proc it again — frequency” so yes, the ICD has been acknowledged.

Sagat.3285:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sagat.3285:

Hidden Killer implies that I killed someone I should still be hidden until I kill someone please buff!!!

lol, no it doesn’t imply that.

If my definition of reward doesn’t mean the same to the game why is yours correct about Revealed Training??

I said Revealed Training is self-explanatory.

Like Saint mentioned it’s intended for your own reveals if it wasn’t we would have a trait line for it but oh look we have stealth traits spreaded in more than 1 line and stealth attacks on every weapon. Please don’t mention change this mechanic to that, stealth is part of current thief it has always been you wanting to change it is denying that it actually is.

I’m never in a group to change stealth, rather I want it to be left alone.

Don’t make this thread a grammar debate.

What? When did I ever correct your grammar?

You wanted stealth attacks to change to flanking attacks,

That’s not changing stealth.

you just proved you decide your meaning of the trait’s wording and reject others I didn’t I use their effects and tried your way of seeing them, by grammar I mean writing and vocab in general.

You can write however you want. I’m not criticizing your grammar.

You can’t ignore stealth it’s part of thief just like boon and condi manipulatiom are for necro which 66% of it is useless in PvE due to design we don’t need thief to be 66% useless because someone decided “let’s ignore stealth” especially after “he who knows his name” gutted SA for everything but d/p smart isn’t he? Hard counters keep coming.

I believe that stealth is fine as is. What needs to change are the things that requires stealth like stealth attacks. I hate that stealth is a pre-requisite, that’s the one they need to change.

Again are you a secret account of his by curiosity?

I’ve told, you got me. Nothing can get pass you.
===============

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

If they used reveal on you then I guess that would help a but only then.

That’s the time where Revealed Training is a counterplay. The other usage (i.e. after attacking from stealth) is not a counterplay.

It’s is your enemy messing up and misusing their skills. The only time you would gain the benefit is if they revealed you when you are not in stealth and not capable of going in to stealth. So the only time you would benefit is when reveal would normally do nothing.

If you get knocked out of stealth or prevented from going in then there is no “counterplay” benefit because you were going to gain revealed as soon as you attacked and gain Revealed Training anyway. They are just denying you the additional offensive Sneak Attack and defensive time in stealth.

That’s what counterplay is. If they deny you the Sneak Attack, you get to have +200 power.

Just because you’ll get +200 power anyway doesn’t make RT less of a counter.

It does make it not a counter.

1) I don’t get revealed before the Sneak Attack.
I get time in stealth.
I get a Sneak Attack.
I get Revealed Training.

2) I get revealed before the Sneak Attack.
I get Revealed Training.

Revealed training is in no way a counter to a enemy reveal that knocks me out of stealth.

Of course it is, because by revealing you, they have to take more damage from you.

If your build can be hosed that easily, then you probably shouldn’t put all your eggs in one basket.

No, they don’t take more damage. We already established that you would have the revealed training bonus anyway from the sneak attack.

You keep on talking about sneak attacks when I’m telling you that RT counterplays reveal that is not your doing.

I am hesitant to call someone a out when they genuinely might misunderstand but I think I am done trying to explain it to you. If you can’t figure it out off of what I have already said then additional effort on my part is doomed to be wasted.

I understand what you’re saying but you’re not understanding mine.

If you sneak attack, RT is a boon.
If you get revealed via Sic ’em, RT is a counterplay.

Bllade.1029:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Amante.8109:

I had a couple thoughts on Staff I’d like to share.

People are generally of the opinion right now that Debilitating Arc is of limited usefulness, as the evade back takes you out of melee range. This forces you to spend even more Initiative on Vault or Weakening Charge to get back in after evading if you want to keep doing damage at all. Lest ArenaNet forget, Initiative is a precious resource that Thief never really has enough of.

My suggestion would be to add an effect to Debilitating Arc along these lines: “Your next Weakening Charge within X seconds costs no initiative.”

The only way that DebArc will be used is to give the Theif a breather, meaning when they don’t want to keep doing damage, perhaps heal or cleanse.

What you want is to combo it with other skills, but if you choose to do that, it has to cost you and making other skills cost less will make this skill to powerful because of what it can do.

For the cost of 4 init, you can;
- deals damage
- cleaves upto 3 targets
- evade attack
- gap creator
- break immobilize/cripple
- then heal if you successfully evade

Then you want to make the next gap closer for free? Too much stuff for a cost of 4 initiative don’t you think?

That ability in actuality will cost 8 or more initiative if you stay on staff. Which is 66% of a Thief’s base initiative pool right there. That means to use that combo, you’ll be forced into Trickery. With that it will still cost you over 50% of your initiative just to use those two abilities.

We all pay for the cost of making combos work but making the this to reduce the cost of a skill is not the right way to do this.

Creating a gap as a DD is counter-productive and initiative does not regenerate nearly as quickly as endurance does (im referring to DD endurance regeneration specifically.) Let’s say it stays the same and we swap weapons to main hand sword or dagger. Infiltrators strike and Heartseeker both cost 3 intitative. So to use that ability then switch weapons will cost you a 10 second weapon swap cooldown and 7 initiative. That is very costly for something Withdraw does for you for no initiative cost with a heal, condi removal, evade and a much larger gap opener. Not to mention only an 18 second cooldown.

What this one does that Withdraw can’t do is to be used up to 3 times in a row which will only cost a total of 12s cooldown. And no it’s not counter-productive because there’s no reason to use this skill without reason.

Amante has the right idea but the problem with his/her suggestion is that it kind of forces the player to use that strategy. After every Debilitating Arc everyone would use Weakening Charge if they got that reduced initiative cost. Doesn’t really promote different strategies and tactics.

When I use Withdraw, I close the gap with Steal or Scorpion Wire. You can very well do the same here.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

And that’s why I run d/p pretty much everywhere…shadow shot gets you out of AoE fast and blinds your target

You can HS your way out of AoE without requiring a target.

and headshot can interrupt nasty skills like meteor shower.

Or Sleight of Hand. Or with my favorite, Scorpion Wire.

Until they fix the /d part of d/d, it just isn’t as competitive against other players.

Competitive in terms of what?

In PvP, Thieves can easily use D/D if they are not subjected to a roaming/capping/decapping duty.

In PvE and WvW, D/D is the best set to use because D/P lacks the ability to tag multiple targets where D/D can easily to that with DB and Dancing Daggers.

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

If they used reveal on you then I guess that would help a but only then.

That’s the time where Revealed Training is a counterplay. The other usage (i.e. after attacking from stealth) is not a counterplay.

It’s is your enemy messing up and misusing their skills. The only time you would gain the benefit is if they revealed you when you are not in stealth and not capable of going in to stealth. So the only time you would benefit is when reveal would normally do nothing.

If you get knocked out of stealth or prevented from going in then there is no “counterplay” benefit because you were going to gain revealed as soon as you attacked and gain Revealed Training anyway. They are just denying you the additional offensive Sneak Attack and defensive time in stealth.

That’s what counterplay is. If they deny you the Sneak Attack, you get to have +200 power.

Just because you’ll get +200 power anyway doesn’t make RT less of a counter.

It does make it not a counter.

1) I don’t get revealed before the Sneak Attack.
I get time in stealth.
I get a Sneak Attack.
I get Revealed Training.

2) I get revealed before the Sneak Attack.
I get Revealed Training.

Revealed training is in no way a counter to a enemy reveal that knocks me out of stealth.

Of course it is, because by revealing you, they have to take more damage from you.

If your build can be hosed that easily, then you probably shouldn’t put all your eggs in one basket.

Sagat.3285:

Hidden Killer implies that I killed someone I should still be hidden until I kill someone please buff!!!

lol, no it doesn’t imply that.

If my definition of reward doesn’t mean the same to the game why is yours correct about Revealed Training??

I said Revealed Training is self-explanatory.

Like Saint mentioned it’s intended for your own reveals if it wasn’t we would have a trait line for it but oh look we have stealth traits spreaded in more than 1 line and stealth attacks on every weapon. Please don’t mention change this mechanic to that, stealth is part of current thief it has always been you wanting to change it is denying that it actually is.

I’m never in a group to change stealth, rather I want it to be left alone.

Don’t make this thread a grammar debate.

What? When did I ever correct your grammar?

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

I disagree on the point regarding proccing a sigil with a sword. There a cooldown anyways meaning in a 3 second or 5 second period you will get as many procs off a sword as off a dagger. The build has a 59 percent base crit rate meaning in a 5 or even 3 second period of time math suggest there will be a proc even with slower weapons.

If you were proccing an item with a 1 second cooldown than faster is better. as in a sigil of strength would not be a great fit.

You got double RNG on these sigils (Crit chance + chance to proc on crit) meaning that to reliably proc them, you need a faster weapon — frequency is the key.

Have you even tried to compare them yourself in the Mist?

But if you really believe that the proc rate of the sigil on a sword is the same as on the dagger, then I’ll leave just you to that belief.

You are not doing the math. I never said the proc rate comparable. Dagger will proc FASTER but the cooldown cancels that out.

Proc with a dagger at 1 second. it will not proc again on fire for 4 more seconds no matter how fast it is. In that 4 seconds time your sword will proc. That unless you just not attacking.

his crit rate is 60 percent base meaning with fury 80 percent of attacks will crit. Fire procs at 50 percent meaning in a 5 second period all he needs is 4 hits to get one proc
(4*.8)=3.2 crits 3.2*.5 =1.6.

Now obviously you can get bad rolls all in a row but a understated the number of attacks you will usually do in a 5 second period.

This is the only test that matters. Forget how early in that attack cycle you get a proc with daggers versus sword. How many fire procs do you get every 5 seconds using sword. ? It is not less then dagger.

I believe in math.

You’re missing the point. You’re assuming that both have 100% chance to Crit and 100% chance to proce — that’s not the case.

My point is, the more you attack, the higher you chance to crit and the more crit you make the higher your chance to proc the sigil. Slow weapon will not give you that high of a chance due to double RNG.

EDIT: Ah, you edit it. Well case in point, that 4 attacks from Dagger is done in short amount of time compare to 4 attacks from Sword — meaning less chances to get a crit and a proc in the same time frame.

I never said BOTh have a hundred percent chance to crit. I gave the numbers.

Yeah you edited it, it wasn’t there when I responded. I bet you didn’t see my edit either. lol

Now the time frame is what you are focused on. Not material with the ICD. It might trigger earlier on dagger but then it will not trigger again until the ICD gone.

When I said you need a “faster weapon” and “frequency”, time frame is implied.

Again, the point you’re missing is that the sooner you can put the sigil on CD, the sooner you can proc it again — frequency.

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

If they used reveal on you then I guess that would help a but only then.

That’s the time where Revealed Training is a counterplay. The other usage (i.e. after attacking from stealth) is not a counterplay.

It’s is your enemy messing up and misusing their skills. The only time you would gain the benefit is if they revealed you when you are not in stealth and not capable of going in to stealth. So the only time you would benefit is when reveal would normally do nothing.

If you get knocked out of stealth or prevented from going in then there is no “counterplay” benefit because you were going to gain revealed as soon as you attacked and gain Revealed Training anyway. They are just denying you the additional offensive Sneak Attack and defensive time in stealth.

That’s what counterplay is. If they deny you the Sneak Attack, you get to have +200 power.

Just because you’ll get +200 power anyway doesn’t make RT less of a counter.

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

I disagree on the point regarding proccing a sigil with a sword. There a cooldown anyways meaning in a 3 second or 5 second period you will get as many procs off a sword as off a dagger. The build has a 59 percent base crit rate meaning in a 5 or even 3 second period of time math suggest there will be a proc even with slower weapons.

If you were proccing an item with a 1 second cooldown than faster is better. as in a sigil of strength would not be a great fit.

You got double RNG on these sigils (Crit chance + chance to proc on crit) meaning that to reliably proc them, you need a faster weapon — frequency is the key.

Have you even tried to compare them yourself in the Mist?

But if you really believe that the proc rate of the sigil on a sword is the same as on the dagger, then I’ll leave just you to that belief.

You are not doing the math. I never said the proc rate comparable. Dagger will proc FASTER but the cooldown cancels that out.

Proc with a dagger at 1 second. it will not proc again on fire for 4 more seconds no matter how fast it is. In that 4 seconds time your sword will proc. That unless you just not attacking.

his crit rate is 60 percent base meaning with fury 80 percent of attacks will crit. Fire procs at 50 percent meaning in a 5 second period all he needs is 4 hits to get one proc
(4*.8)=3.2 crits 3.2*.5 =1.6.

Now obviously you can get bad rolls all in a row but a understated the number of attacks you will usually do in a 5 second period.

This is the only test that matters. Forget how early in that attack cycle you get a proc with daggers versus sword. How many fire procs do you get every 5 seconds using sword. ? It is not less then dagger.

I believe in math.

You’re missing the point. You’re assuming that both have 100% chance to Crit and 100% chance to proce — that’s not the case.

My point is, the more you attack, the higher you chance to crit and the more crit you make the higher your chance to proc the sigil. Slow weapon will not give you that high of a chance due to double RNG.

EDIT: Ah, you edit it. Well case in point, that 4 attacks from Dagger is done in short amount of time compare to 4 attacks from Sword — meaning less chances to get a crit and a proc in the same time frame.

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

If they used reveal on you then I guess that would help a but only then.

That’s the time where Revealed Training is a counterplay. The other usage (i.e. after attacking from stealth) is not a counterplay.

Amante.8109:

I had a couple thoughts on Staff I’d like to share.

People are generally of the opinion right now that Debilitating Arc is of limited usefulness, as the evade back takes you out of melee range. This forces you to spend even more Initiative on Vault or Weakening Charge to get back in after evading if you want to keep doing damage at all. Lest ArenaNet forget, Initiative is a precious resource that Thief never really has enough of.

My suggestion would be to add an effect to Debilitating Arc along these lines: “Your next Weakening Charge within X seconds costs no initiative.”

The only way that DebArc will be used is to give the Theif a breather, meaning when they don’t want to keep doing damage, perhaps heal or cleanse.

What you want is to combo it with other skills, but if you choose to do that, it has to cost you and making other skills cost less will make this skill to powerful because of what it can do.

For the cost of 4 init, you can;
- deals damage
- cleaves upto 3 targets
- evade attack
- gap creator
- break immobilize/cripple
- then heal if you successfully evade

Then you want to make the next gap closer for free? Too much stuff for a cost of 4 initiative don’t you think?

Saint Jabberwocky.5098:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The name of the trait is self-explanatory whether you agree with it or not.

That is untrue. It is not counter-play at all. Revealed is part of the Stealth Attack thief class mechanic. Revealed Training is meant to enhance your damage in the window of self applied reveal you get after using a Sneak Attack and before you can Stealth again after reveal ends.

No, not just self-applied-revealed because it works as long as you are revealed regardless of what caused the reveal — so it work as a counter to skills that applies Revealed (i.e. Sic ’em).

There is no additional benefit gained from being revealed before hand so the thief gained nothing by being knocked out of stealth by Reveal because be he would of had Revealed Training anyway.

What? You’re not making sense.

If you don’t trait fro Revealed Training, you get nothing when revealed.
If you trait for Revealed Training, you get +200 power.

The players who choose to reveal you have to deal with the powerful you. It is a counterplay.

However, not a lot of players spec for Revealed Training since they rather pick Panic Strike, thus they are purposely not wanting to counter Revealed. That’s their own fault.

You can’t call it counter play to give the thief what he was going to have anyway.

You’re not getting it. The counter is against a reveal that is not the Thief’s doing.

==============

Sagat.3285:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The name of the trait is self-explanatory whether you agree with it or not.

Your using a name instead of functionality to describe a trait….I have seen it all..hopefully. Can I argue why Hidden Killer reveals me after it’s effect

Um, because you are no longer hidden when you are out of stealth.

Again, self-explanatory.

or why Assasin’s Reward doesn’t reward me for killing foes?

Your definition of “reward” doesn’t coincide with what the game consider as a reward. However you are rewarded nonetheless.

Edit: Are you a secret account of “he who knows his name”??

Oh man, you got me. You can also find other posts in this forum where I’m critical about my other self just to throw you off.

Sagat.3285:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Slowmelt.8547:

Zodryn.4216:

We need counterplay.

This.

Counterplay already exists, it’s called Revealed Training.

Okay now you made a fool of yourself. This okay-ish trait functions in no way counterplay and even if it was it would be nerfed because too much power cannot be given to 1 trait especially at class mechanic level hard counter-counterplay.

The name of the trait is self-explanatory whether you agree with it or not.

Slowmelt.8547:

Zodryn.4216:

We need counterplay.

This.

Counterplay already exists, it’s called Revealed Training.

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Vyce.2014:

Karl McLain.5604:

Amante.8109:

Let’s not forget that Mantras, once pre-casted, immediately start cooling down for future use

I believe this was fixed in the July 28th release. It’s possible that they could behave the exact same as mantras. At this time, we’re going with the theme that Distracting Daggers are something you can hold over your opponents for a period of time, and then it’s gone. We’d rather encourage using the daggers and getting those interrupts off, than simply holding the daggers for hours at a time.
Please feel free to let us know how they play during the next beta event. There’s quite a few ways to go with the ability and I’m not sure they have to behave exactly like mantras.

IMO the daggers should work like this…

-No cast time to activate. ALWAYS ON, 2x charges.
-Each dagger has an independant recharge timer of 25 seconds (reduced to 20 with physical trait).

Think of it like a Monk’s dash ability in Diablo3.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I don’t know why you have to make this skill function like a Venom or Mantra when you can just have it reload a dagger over time up to 3 daggers — like every 5 seconds. Just remove the required activation step, it is unnecessary. This way, you can control the number of daggers by increasing/decreasing the reload time.

Smart people think alike.

So this would be like building up dagger charges over time? Sort of like the skill getting its own independent initiative? Let’s assume each dagger charge is 8 seconds (25/3=8.333). So maybe 3 is the max and then you use all 3 in quick succession, basically it would take 24 seconds to reach 3 charges again. But if you have 3 and use 1 (leaving you with 2) you can wait 8 seconds and you’ll be back up to 3 (if I’m understanding this correctly). That would be pretty cool.

Exactly!

Sagat.3285:

You can’t just ignore part of your class, the broken you left when trying to adjust it while adding more counters. Your request happened through DD and Acro says “thank you for putting me out of misery”.

If you follow my take on Thief, you would not think that I am ignoring it.

If I am to make changes to Thief, first I would remove the stealth attacks and make them flanking attacks. That way no more silly argument about skills getting locked out by Revealed.

Second, the Acro line needs to be improved big time to rival Shadow Arts. Feline Grace needs to be restored, heal and cleanse on dodge (not evade) needs to be implemented, and buff duration to be baseline.

Third, Steal will have a base cooldown of 20s and remove CDR traits from Trickery.

With these 3 changes, the gameplay of the Thief will greatly improve regardless of what build you make.

So no, I’m not ignoring stealth nor I see it to be broken.

Vyce.2014:

Karl McLain.5604:

Amante.8109:

Let’s not forget that Mantras, once pre-casted, immediately start cooling down for future use

I believe this was fixed in the July 28th release. It’s possible that they could behave the exact same as mantras. At this time, we’re going with the theme that Distracting Daggers are something you can hold over your opponents for a period of time, and then it’s gone. We’d rather encourage using the daggers and getting those interrupts off, than simply holding the daggers for hours at a time.
Please feel free to let us know how they play during the next beta event. There’s quite a few ways to go with the ability and I’m not sure they have to behave exactly like mantras.

IMO the daggers should work like this…

-No cast time to activate. ALWAYS ON, 2x charges.
-Each dagger has an independant recharge timer of 25 seconds (reduced to 20 with physical trait).

Think of it like a Monk’s dash ability in Diablo3.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I don’t know why you have to make this skill function like a Venom or Mantra when you can just have it reload a dagger over time up to 3 daggers — like every 5 seconds. Just remove the required activation step, it is unnecessary. This way, you can control the number of daggers by increasing/decreasing the reload time.

Smart people think alike.

Zodryn.4216:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shinjiko.1352:

Like maybe a single shadowy effect? Or a different one for each of the different dodge styles.

Totally unnecessary and a waste of resources because you should know which type of dodge you traited for — no need for visual “fluff”.

What’s next…a visual “fluff” for which Trickery GM you traited for so you’ll know if your Steal will daze or apply confusion?

The visual effect has no value because it is expected the you at least know what your build does.

The point is just for fun/enjoyment, not because we don’t remember our build. By your logic they should remove the special Guardian virtue effects because there’s no reason for them. For that matter, why do necros get an effect when in deathshroud? Shouldn’t they know they’re in DS without the effect?

No, what you’re asking is not similar to Guardian’s or Necro’s fluffs. If they are to implement something similar for Thief, they would add the shadowy fluff when Steal gets out of cooldown.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

I’m pretty certain that engineers aren’t going to be running their AoE reveal (just as they don’t run lock on). I certainly won’t run it. It’s an elite skill that also gives stealth while keeping the drone that provides the stealth visible and (presumably) targetable. No thanks, I’ll keep running Elixir X or (Mortar) (depending) on the situation.

Whether or not you run it is anecdotal, will others run it? It’s also highly susceptible to change, will it be run when there’s a meta shift?

More importantly, it doesn’t really matter who runs it – what matters is the design philosophy behind it. I said all this when they added stealth reveal traps in WvW, then again when they added reveal to ranger, and again when it was added to utlitiy goggles – hardcountering a classes mechanics is extremely poor design. It shows a lack of creativity and understanding from the development team. At this point, it’s a pretty clear indicator of how Anet plans on “balancing” stealth (and by extension thieves)for the lifetime of the game.

Using the same train of thought, hard counters only affect those who runs stealth, but not all Thief.

Why is Warrior ShoutBow is popular? It’s because we hard counter them in melee with blind — thus denying (on hindering) them their Adrenaline mechanic.

Heck we can even make an argument that because of stealth, the Thief can deny everybody else from using their mechanic on the Thief. You can’t really do anything to something you cannot see.

My point is, the premise of this discussion can be argued in many ways for which the direction of it will go no where.

Yeah, no.

Comparing what blind does to a warriors adrenaline generation to an effect that locks out an entire trait line and a class mechanic is ridiculous – they aren’t even remotely comparable, and you should know that.

I don’t know about you but there is a trait line that relies on adrenaline. Besides, we’re talking about denial here not total lock out.

Besides, my point is, there is no harm to locking out a trait line that very few uses, if not never, in PvP.

For it to be comparable, blind would have to read “Target loses all adrenaline and cannot gain adrenaline for 4s”, and they’d also have to have an entire traitline where every minor trait and worthwhile major trait revolved around generating/using adrenaline. Edit: Oh, and also once hit with blind there’s no way to cleanse the “no adrenaline” effects, you just have to wait it out.

Should we also make it that Revealed can be applied as easily as blind just to make it even more comparable?

It’s much easier to deny Warrior adrenaline than to deny Thief stealth. What I’m comparing is that both profession can be denied and if Thief will get a special treatment, other professions should also.

I’m not sure why you’d ever bother to post that, or the unrelated scenarios that followed it.

Probably because due to the silliness of this topic. I would rather see a topic about improving the Thief’s survivability without relying on stealth and leave the stealth as is.

evilapprentice.6379:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

I’m pretty certain that engineers aren’t going to be running their AoE reveal (just as they don’t run lock on). I certainly won’t run it. It’s an elite skill that also gives stealth while keeping the drone that provides the stealth visible and (presumably) targetable. No thanks, I’ll keep running Elixir X or (Mortar) (depending) on the situation.

Whether or not you run it is anecdotal, will others run it? It’s also highly susceptible to change, will it be run when there’s a meta shift?

More importantly, it doesn’t really matter who runs it – what matters is the design philosophy behind it. I said all this when they added stealth reveal traps in WvW, then again when they added reveal to ranger, and again when it was added to utlitiy goggles – hardcountering a classes mechanics is extremely poor design. It shows a lack of creativity and understanding from the development team. At this point, it’s a pretty clear indicator of how Anet plans on “balancing” stealth (and by extension thieves)for the lifetime of the game.

Using the same train of thought, hard counters only affect those who runs stealth, but not all Thief.

Why is Warrior ShoutBow is popular? It’s because we hard counter them in melee with blind — thus denying (on hindering) them their Adrenaline mechanic.

Heck we can even make an argument that because of stealth, the Thief can deny everybody else from using their mechanic on the Thief. You can’t really do anything to something you cannot see.

My point is, the premise of this discussion can be argued in many ways for which the direction of it will go no where.

shallow.3970:

So my question: what else is easy and fast to farm as a thief?

I frequent the silverwaste but I won’t call it a fast farm. IMO fractals is still faster if you have a pre-made group. Otherwise, silverwaste is the easy farm albeit slow.

Do you guys play thief in world boss events at all?

I personally don’t because I despise loading screen.

What builds do you use outside of dungeons?

Full ‘zerker/high-crit-damage + S/B. That’s all you need. Stick with a group to cover your build’s weaknesses and to get insane buffs, then you’re good to go.

Teleport in this game is not the true meaning of the word. Obstacles should not be a problem when teleporting, heck, we should even be able to teleport to the other side of the wall even without a clear path.

However, Nightcrawler from X-Men brought up a valid point;

“I have to be able to see where I am going, otherwise I could wind up inside a wall.”

With that, it now makes sense why we need a clear path else we wind up inside a pebble.