Guild Wars 2

babazhook.6805:

Nike.2631:

Arrow.4619:

Nike.2631:

All true. Believe me, the prospect of my Thief being a first-round draft pick for raid-tank has me salivating.

Nothing against you as player . . . but I think you’re going to be sorely disappointed.

I’m not offended. What’s your concern? Best capacity to dodge in game, 10% mitigation after dodge, dishes weakness, self-heals left, right, and center (on hit and on spend initiative), evade on #3.

Bunker thieves (all 8 of us in the entire game…) are already incredibly tanky. The last round of changes builds on that like I could only dream of.

There more then 8

He probably didn’t see those who are in stealth.

ragnarokda.1805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

All these builds around interrupts are in for a really big disappointment. It’s unreliable and it’s not even remotely close to a “fun” build. Interrupts should be instant cast, else it’s useless.

That’s disappointing man… Although if interrupt builds were more prevalent then all thieves, mes and wars would run them and everyone would complain haha.

Headshot is a good interrupt but due to pre-cast delay (internal casting time due to aiming animation), it’s just too slow that’s why it’s disappointing.

In addition, the travel time of the bullet is also too slow making an interrupt from a distance of 900 range is very difficult.

The build looks good on paper and it should work well, but too many design problems and bad decisions in expense of the Thief profession makes this build more frustrating than fun.

Eponet.4829:

How effective are condition thieves?

I ended up coming up with this build, but I’m not sure how effective it would be in group scenarios where I can venom share for the full 5 targets.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVnMJCFNhNNBOPB8PhjWiyXGtRKyHijoI0BQIuAA-TxxBABaq+j0K/W+RAAwZAoP9Bps/wZKBJFAMrBA-e

TRAITS:

1. First thing first, Potent Poison is crap. It doesn’t matter if the Dev increased the damage by 100% because most of the Thief’s conditions are from Bleeding.
2. Now that’s out of the way, pick Improvisation instead since it gives you a chance to reset all your venoms on Steal. In addition, when you steal something that applies condition damage, it’s a big boost to your DPS.
3. Pick Sleight of Hand instead of Bewildering Ambush. SoH synergizes with Improvisation. More steal = more chances to reset your venoms = more damage.

SKILLS:
- Your choices aligned with mine — no change

GEARS:

1. Weapon and Armor: Dire is better than Carrion for your weapon and armor. Carrion is more for hybrid builds.
2. Acc: Dire is better than Sinister for your accessories. Sinister is good at procing sigil, since you don’t have those, you’re better off with Dire.
3. Runes: Kraits is better than Afflicted only because of the 6th set proc on Elite skill use. You can proc this every time your Elite goes off cool down. It’s perfect for your build since you’re using D/D.

OTHERS:
Food – always go for condition damage over duration. Only take duration if you are applying non-damage condition (i.e. Chill). So for this, you’re better off with Orrian Truffle Soup.

Crystals – Your choice of crystal is perfect for a Dire set. Another reason to choose Dire. You can easily reach 1900+ condition damage.

meepeY.2867:

Is the build for PVP, PVE or WVW?

We’d be able to critic if we had more information

If you click on the link, you’ll find your answer….sigh

BraxKedren.8941:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

BraxKedren.8941:

Smollett.6270:

Hi Karl!
Do you know, that we are the only class who doesn’t have 1200 range weapon?

Scepter?

But with the Bow DH gets they have a weapon with1200 range. Which means Thief is the only class without a 1200 range weapon.

Deleted my response as I thought (really) I was reading in the Guardian forums so that response was from a Guardian thinking. Didn’t realize I was somehow in the Thief forum.

That’s what happen when Guardians trying to shadowstep, they have no shadow return.

How about removing it entirely before they bury themselves in crap by designing around it?

It’s a stupid and lazy design placeholder that should have only existed in a tournament environment instead of across the board.

This is GW1 all over again. They should have learned this by now. Use environmental effect in PvP where they want Revealed to exists but remove it from PvE contents.

All these builds around interrupts are in for a really big disappointment. It’s unreliable and it’s not even remotely close to a “fun” build. Interrupts should be instant cast, else it’s useless.

Smollett.6270:

Hi Karl!
Do you know, that we are the only class who doesn’t have 1200 range weapon?

He knows and it’s by design.

If we didn’t get a 1200 range from our Elite Spec, chances are we’re never gonna get it.

ragnarokda.1805:

Are interrupt builds a viable or were at one time a viable strategy? If so, does anyone have a build link to a a sort of “skeleton” of a build that would involve focusing on interrupting?

I’m thinking this would involve sw/p with whatever as a second set. (Pistol Whip)

Thanks in advanced!

There’s no such build. You either build power-based with interrupt or condition-damage-based with interrupt — you can’t really accomplish anything by making an interrupt build.

If you’re aiming at capitalizing on Pulmonary Impact…it doesn’t work well or as expected. You lose a lot of DPS trying to time an interrupt and if it is evaded, you’re SoL.

The problem with Thief building interrupt is that the only reliable skill is Steal traited with Sleight because it’s the only one that is instant cast…other skills can be baited due to casting time and delays.

You’re better off auto attacking with Dagger than trying to proc Pulmonary Impact.

If it’s for any other reason, then any build will work…but viable?

All Pistol skills: Remove pre-cast (aiming) and after-cast (recoil) delays.
Vital Shot: Remove casting time.
Body Shot: Reduce cost to 2 init and remove bolas (immobilize).
Unload: Add Ricochet baseline. Add bleeding condition.

Ankle Shot – triggers “on hit” instead of “on crit hit”
Flawless Strikes – gain +10 Ferocity for each hit on target. Max 15 stacks.
Lotus Training – missile radius 800, cripple duration 5 seconds

Reverse Blossom is not even that great. I rather have Shadowstab and Second Shadow

alchemyst.2165:

Serious Thought.5394:

Weakness reduces physical damage. Make it reduce CONDITION damage, and that trait becomes so amazing its not even funny. Everyone would love you.

Oh….my….

I think I just fainted

“In addition to 50% glancing blows on direct damage, condition damage also has a 50% chance to deal 50% less damage.”

Karl if you implement that you would be a god

Why not!?

50% less condition damage from Adept is not so bad while a GM only reduces 10%.

Let’s do it.

Some of these suggestions making me cringed due to their narrow-mindedness instead of suggesting the traits be viable to more builds than one.

PopeUrban.2578:

It boggles the mind why you would use lotus rather than bound or dash on p/p

bound grants you stealth from your smoke field (though it was bugged last weekend so you had to end the dodge in the field) and dash gives you MUCH better kite.

I disagree. I tried all three dodges and only Lotus works.

Bound is nothing but a regular dodge unless I get in melee range — which will never happen. Sure I can stealth, but why? I’m not building a condition based P/P and no reason to go in stealth.

Dashing backwards puts me out of range and often finding myself running back close to my target. I even trait for Uncatchable to give me more kiting power, but the distance is just too far.

Lotus is perfect because when my target gets closer, I can cripple them before they get in melee. I don’t have to take Uncatchable anymore with this.

Why on earth would you use a dodge that does primarily condition damage and only benefits your build by tossing out tiny bits of cripple when faced with two clearly superior options?

Lotus frees up an adept slot from Trickery for my build. Instead of taking Uncatchable, I can take Thrill instead.

Not criticizing, I just don’t understand the logic that it’s only useful on p/p

I understand. Think about it, what build will you use Lotus for? All builds, including D/D and P/D condition, will benefit more from Unhindered — that’s a given. And you said it yourself P/P is better off with Dash.

So the question is, who will take Bounding over Dash? And who will take Lotus over Dash?

The answer to the latter is P/P power base — it can benefit from it the most. However, making it to give 10% condition damage and making Havoc only 360 range leaves P/P without any viable options.

Lotus is extremely effective on p/d and d/d condi. It helps you land CnD on p/d and it stacks loads more damage on d/d due to the much better endurance uptime from dagger auto, and in general adds 30% to 50% more condition damage depending on the circumstances of the fight.

I don’t see why D/D would pick Lotus over Dash — the damage reduction is just too good for melee builds. P/D “might” use it but again why pick it over Dash? P/D will benefit more from Dash + Uncatchable.

Karl McLain.5604:

• Evasive Empowerment: This trait has been renamed to Havoc Master and grants the player 7% bonus damage to enemies within the 360 range threshold.

This is what we’ve been talking about. Straight up buff without hoops, loops and hurdles.

Thank you.

• Bounding Dodger: In addition to granting access to the Bound dodge ability, the thief will gain 10% bonus physical damage for 4 seconds after dodging.
• Lotus Training: In addition to granting access to the Impaling Lotus dodge ability, the thief will gain 10% bonus condition damage for 4 seconds after dodging.
• Unhindered combatant: In addition to granting the Dash dodge ability, the thief will gain 10% damage reduction against physical and condition damage.

Lotus Training is inferior compared to the other two. I used this GM during the BWE using P/P power based, thus this 10% bonus condition damage will not be beneficial. P/D “might” use is but why would anyone use it over Unhindered?

The only real build that will use Lotus Training is P/P. Even D/D is better off with Unhindered.

I see what you’re trying to do here, but we’re talking about Thief here, not Ele, Necro, or Mes. Lotus Training might work for those professions but not for Thief.

Maybe, this is a BIG maybe, if you really fixed P/P like you have proposed, then maybe this iteration of Lotus Training will be fine. If Vital Shot has no casting time and Unload deals additional condition damage, then yes, keep it — however currently, this doesn’t help any Thief condition build, Unhindered will still be the best choice for condi build.

Havoc Master has taken its place, as we felt that the line could use a more guaranteed damage increase.

Evasive Empowerment worked for both melee and ranged, now it just for melee. :/

Leaving P/P in the dust again.

For trait mods, we’d like to experiment with Weakening Strikes slightly, adding a secondary to it within its role of debilitation. Options we’re looking at it:

• Inflict X (torment, bleeding, something) when you weaken a foe.
  or
• Receive less damage from weakened foes.

Since Havoc Master is for physical damage, I vote for the " Inflict X (torment, bleeding, something) when you weaken a foe" just to give condition damage build something.

Once again, thanks for your continued constructive feedback. It’s greatly appreciated.

-Karl

Thanks for the hard work.

Jana.6831:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The clunkiness of DB happens after the skill due to the after-cast delay — now add that delay to the casting time of CnD — it’s not very fluid. By removing the after-cast delay, your CnD’s chances of hitting will greatly improve thus increasing your damage output. The sooner you can follow-up your attacks, the more damage you can output because you’re not being gated by pre-cast and after-cast delays.

In theory you’re right, in reality I cast DB when the opponent is running towards me, so we’re back to back after DB ends and I need to turn around to hit him with CnD – that alltogether is fluid for me.

The after-cast delay is noticeable and it creates a larger window of opportunity than it should. For me that’s clunky.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Think about it, in 12 initiative bar, you can use DB 3x at a cost of 4 init (currently) vs. using DB 4x at a cost of 3init.

Yes, great for hybrid or condi builds. If they can pull that off often enough as DB can be interrupted and most classes have an interrupt.

That’s my point about pre-cast delay, it’s unnecessary and it allows it to be interruptible when it should be an evade. It is clunky because of the delay making it an unreliable skill to evade attacks.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

However, DB don’t need a cost reduction, just delay reductions. Unload, on the other hand, needs its cost reduced. Shadow Shot deals 1k damage, blind, teleport, instant for 4 init. Unload barely deals 1k damage after 1.75 seconds, no utility, no healing, its stupid and unreasonable for the cost of 5 init.

Not sure about that as a raw unload is really powerful. So people could either use the remaining initative to create a smoke field or spam unload once more, I somehow bet they’d do the latter. And with that they would be even more annoying than rangers.

How is it annoying?

The Unload damage output sucks and it cost too much (both initiative and casting time) to make it even remotely a threatening skill. Ranger can do their “unload” at 1500 range that causes vulnerability — not even close.

Even when you compare Ranger’s shortbow to Thief’s P/P, Ranger’s auto-attack has no casting time, makes it a 100 times better weapon than P/P. P/P has to unload just to keep up with that damage output.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Not really sure what you’re talking about here.

The problem why thieves’ damage output seems so low is that other’s classes damage output is so high and they’re still tanky. Thief didn’t really gain damage with the June patch, most other classes did, some skills were buffed, some traits were buffed but maybe they forgot to tweak some percentage traits to make tanky classes not more powerful than they should be.

Yeah, that’s part of the problem. While they make everyone tanky, they never buff our damage. However, instead of increasing the numbers, they can simply take away all the hurdles and hoops that we have to jump through and let us play however we want to.

Meaning, Pistol #1 no casting time, DB no pre-cast and after-cast delay, Reduce cost of Unload, etc.

ETA; if you buff thieves damage it would lead to “balance in a vaccum” once again – thieves would one shot each other while they still might only have a slightly better chance against other classes. And with that we would be at pre ferocity again with the difference that soldier’s (and the likes) still isn’t viable cause all other classes have gained a lot more “power”.

That’s why they should tweak something else other than finagling the numbers.

Zero Day.2594:

So,

After reading this, thread, the impression I got is that people mainly liked the DrD. With minor improvements that can be done later, overall people seem pleased.

Interesting…

Within the context of the profession, yes, it seems like people are pleased. That’s usually the reaction after chopping down the tree and uprooting it — a tiny green sprout coming out of the ground will no doubt make a lot of people happy.

However, outside the profession shows a lot of problem for DD.

Jana.6831:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I disagree. D/D is the most flexible weapon set. It can close gap using HS and it can create gap by using Dancing Daggers.

Ty, the first who agrees with me (unwillingly).
I still want access to CiS and Shadow Rejuvenation though and Dancing Daggers seem a bit unreliable to me – but maybe that’s me.

Anyway, I agree with the “bigger picture” and for that also the skills of other classes have to be taken into account.
Not so sure how to solve the “damage output problem” and if I understood what you meant and if I agree.
When I use DB it’s usually followed by CnD and BS – the three skills take me less than 2 seconds – I never felt as if DB was clunky.

The clunkiness of DB happens after the skill due to the after-cast delay — now add that delay to the casting time of CnD — it’s not very fluid. By removing the after-cast delay, your CnD’s chances of hitting will greatly improve thus increasing your damage output. The sooner you can follow-up your attacks, the more damage you can output because you’re not being gated by pre-cast and after-cast delays.

And I was running without trickery before, without infusion of shadows and hardly ever had troubles with my initative – so I don’t think that lowering the initative costs would increase my damage output.

Think about it, in 12 initiative bar, you can use DB 3x at a cost of 4 init (currently) vs. using DB 4x at a cost of 3init.

So yes, changing the cost increases your damage output.

However, DB don’t need a cost reduction, just delay reductions. Unload, on the other hand, needs its cost reduced. Shadow Shot deals 1k damage, blind, teleport, instant for 4 init. Unload barely deals 1k damage after 1.75 seconds, no utility, no healing, its stupid and unreasonable for the cost of 5 init.

And I think something went terribly wrong when the recalculation of the stats took place and thief got the short end. I’d have to look in all of the classes traits to see which “gain power for x percent of your toughness” should be tweaked. And that would be the bigger picture in my opinion – and I’m too lazy to do that.

Not really sure what you’re talking about here.

Reaper is the best profession I’ve ever experienced — and I main Thief.

IchigoHatake.5098:

As a thief using melee weapons its really hard to kill the guard when those traps kinda insta kill you …..

Triggering one trap, no. Triggering multiple of them at the same time, yes.

Rangers can do the same thing and they’re more vicious because they have a trap that knocks you down.

Thieves traps on the other hand, you’ll get knockdown, cripple, poison and double-teamed. Not an insta-kill but they’ll still die.

Kageseigi.2150:

Indeed, it may just be my playstyle. I was actually running a “bunker” build with S/D and S/P at one point. The objective was to be able to fight on point, but also to survive. After Acro got nerfed, I was using Shadow Arts so I could heal up in Stealth. I would actually use S/D off-point to Stealth if I got ambushed, then used S/P on-point for Interrupts and Blinds. But eventually, the Pistol wasn’t enough to sustain me, so I would have to switch back to the Dagger for evades and Stealth.

Sadly, no matter what weapon you choose, you cannot solo-cap a point.

I think that’s my main issue. D/P feels very “tactical.” It has so much utility and versatility, I can choose how to play. It’s a power set, not a condi set, but that doesn’t make it less tactical. It gives me everything I need… all of the needed tools.

If I see a big attack coming, I can Interrupt. If I need to get close or Blind, I Shadow Shot. If I need to Stealth or Backstab, I can Black Powder + Heartseeker.

lol, that’s a funny way to play D/P…as tactical — because doing so you lose a lot of effectiveness.

When you see a big attack coming, you don’t interrupt — instead you need to use Shadow Shot to blind the attacker and get in melee range for counter-attack. The only ability you should be interrupting is healing skills…everything else can be dodged or blinded.

In the same way, when a big attack is coming to hit a D/D, you don’t dodge the attack, instead you use DB to evade it and counter-attack at the same time. It’s a higher skill level of playstyle that requires practice but very effective. If I need to interrupt, I use Steal(SoH spec).

D/D doesn’t seem to have nearly as much ability. Yes, it can be used as a condi/hybrid set, but it’s still lacking utility. It may have the raw damage output, but it doesn’t give me enough tools to apply it effectively. The main thing it could use is a full gap closer… or at least better/longer evasions.

I disagree. D/D is the most flexible weapon set. It can close gap using HS and it can create gap by using Dancing Daggers. I’m not one of those who build a hybrid around D/D but it works for other people.

I will equate D/D to a very short fighter going up against a very tall fighter. Once the shorter fighter is “hugging” the taller fighter, he can use knees and elbows to tremendous effect. But before he can get there, he has to get past the long reach (“kill zone”) of the taller fighter.

That’s also true using S/D. The only real difference is the damage output.

I just feel that D/P has a tool for almost every situation, but other weapon sets are lacking when compared to it.

D/P is good at dueling and single target, it loses effectiveness for each target added into the fray, this is why it’s not a tactical set. Compare that to x/D where it has the ability to cripple and control the situation. D/P’s option at the point is to stealth and run away, while x/D can keep that party going.

My point in all these is that, what we perceived to be a lack of balance can mean that we simply not seeing the big picture. This is the kind of things that ArenaNet Devs has to consider before they even remotely agree with us. Meaning, what we see as lacking in balance, the Dev see it very differently.

However, in order for them to prevent this kind of perception taking into effect, they need to make many significant quantifiable changes.

For instance, D/D has a damage output problem and buffing the number to increase damage is not the solution. By simply removing after-cast delays from DB, for example, will increase the weapon set’s damage output without tweaking the damage. Same goes with P/P, by reducing the cost of Unload will increase the weapon set’s damage output. All these changes without touching the base damage or damage coefficient.

That’s what we need to see coming from the Devs.

Kageseigi.2150:

Dagger/Pistol
Best Stealth Attack. Best finisher. Gap closer. Blinds. Interrupts. On-demand Stealth (condi-removal/health regen).

---

Dagger/Dagger
Complete lack of gap closers, blinds, and interrupts. Only access to Stealth is by a successful melee attack.

Sword/Dagger
Slow Auto-Attacks. No damaging conditions. Only access to Stealth is by a successful melee attack.

Sword/Pistol
Slow Auto-Attacks. No damaging conditions. No access to Stealth. High damage attack roots you in place.

Pistol/Dagger
Slow Auto-Attacks. No interrupts or blinds. Only access to Stealth is by a successful melee attack.

The standard is D/D and the extremes are D/P and P/D (see the following);

D/P > S/P > D/D < S/D <P/D

The left side is more concentrated on an aggressive playstyle while the ones on the right side is more focused on tactical playstyle.

Pistol/Pistol
Slow Auto-Attacks. No gap opener. No evades. No damaging AoE or cleave. No access to Stealth.

Shortbow
Weak damage on most attacks. High damage skill is super-slow. Stealth Attack is very weak.

The same applies to the ranged weapon sets. P/P is more aggressive and SB is more tactical.

Really, if your life depended on it, why would you not choose Dagger/Pistol? It seems to be the “Super” weapon set… the true Elite.

I’f my life depends on it, I’d use P/D or SB…D/P may get me killed.

I love the Sword, though. But having to choose between Stealth or Interrupts/Blinds is not fun.

What’s the difference between blind and stealth? Either way your target can’t see you.

Joking aside. S/D is not about stealth so your dilemma is non-existence.

Dagger/Dagger would be amazing if it had a shadowstep gap closer or Interrupts or Blinds… or on-demand Stealth.

Nah. You’re just playing the weapon set wrong. You want D/P functionality in D/D, so why not just use D/P?

With D/D, you can be really aggressive or you can be tactical — that’s why this weapon set is hard to balance, maybe because it already is. What it needs is DB to be more reliable.

And yes, I dislike the Shortbow. It’s great for mobility, but I hate getting stuck with it in combat. It would be perfect as it is if I had instant-weapon swap… or if it was an F3 mode. But that’s not the case, sadly.

Shortbow is fine as is. With the buff to Potent Poison, it’s a good 2ndary weapon for P/D. It just need its projectile to move faster.

Thief is “fun” for “fun” activities (i.e. Exploration).

Thief is not fun for serious activities. (i.e. Raids, Fractals, Dungeons, etc.).

The damage output of Thief regardless of build and weapon is nothing compare to other professions. I rolled Thief, Ranger, Rev, and Necro (didn’t got a chance to roll all professions) and by comparison, Necro has the highest DPS IMO and Thief’s damage is negligible.

The Thief survivability is not upto par either. It’s the difference between active and passive protection.

Basically, the game mode’s difficulty leve is based on which profession you pick.
Easy Mode – any soldier (Warrior, Guardian, Rev) and Engi
Normal Mode – all scholars (Ele, Necro, Mes) and Ranger
Hard Mode – all non-Thief wearing blue gears
Nightmare Mode – fully equip Thief

Play Thief at your own risk — you won’t enjoy yourself.

DD Staff melt from condition builds and everyone I’ve encountered is running a condition build.

Let me know when DD Staff won against Scepter/Dagger Reaper or Longbow Druid. Even a Sw/Sh Medi-DHunter is ridiculous.

This is what I ran this weekend.
Where: PvE (I PvP’ed with my Necro — Thief sucks in PvP)
Build: P/P + Staff
Link: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAqaWn8lCdmiNPBeOB0PhFqiy7C+gSoLCCggcu67+wH-TRCBwA5UpQ5+DYV+JRJIgTAQK9AJMBpTdlAPAAA-e

The Good:
- Evasive Emp + Lotus Training + Expeditious Dodger + Uncatchable – this synergy is not for the faint of heart. This build is an “up in your face” P/P duelling while surrounded. These traits ensures that the DD gunslinger survives.

- Channelled Vigor + Vigorous Recovery + Endless Stamina – this synergy worked great together to keep my DD P/P in the fray.

- Driven Fortitude + Escapist Absolution + Feline Grace – this synergy works really well with this build since it gives me 3 things on an evade; health, endurance, and condition removal.

- Bounding Dodger + Vault + Staff Mastery – I switch-up to staff from time to time especially during a night invasion. The synergy of Vault → Bounding Dodger allowed me to deal massive AoE damage. Staff will have +10% damage at all times since I’m using dodge as an attack skill.

- Dash Animation and Mechanic – two thumbs up. I used this just to see what’s it all about but it doesn’t work for my build. However I see the value of it in PvP.

The Bad:
- Driven Fortitude/Escapist Absolution/Feline Grace ICD – internal cool down on these skills in PvE is BAD — really really BAD. The ICD should stay in PvP where it belong. During a night invasion, too much things are going on from different sources and the ICD gets me killed every time. The after-cast delay on dodge should be enough. I can play safe but what’s the fun in that?

- Hard to Catch/Don’t Stop ICD – again, internal cool down issue. Since there is no visual indication when these traits triggered nor an indication when it is in CD, these traits becomes unreliable when I really need them.

- P/P damage – even with the recent buff to Pistol damage, it’s not enough for PvE even with a full stack of Might. This is when I usually suggest that the difference in PvE and PvP should be taken into considerations because while the Devs worries the damage of Pistol in PvP, PvE suffers! I understand that the Devs wants to streamline the skills instead of separating them — if that is the case then design your PvE encounters and mobs where the damage gap is not underwhelming.

- Mobs with “Evades Ranged Attacks” – not even a duration, nor a buff, they just evades ranged attacks. This didn’t improve my experience, only ruins it because even a Boss Mob’s invulnerability has a duration or removable stack. This passive ability is beyond stupid especially these mobs uses Longbow, teleport, and stealth.

The Ugly:
- Staff Auto-attack – Revenant’s staff animation is way better than DD’s and it feels clunky because the staff visually implies that it can reach the target, but it misses because the range of the staff is shorter than it appears.

- Vertical Map – this map reminds me the horrible experience navigating Kaineng City in GW1. One way to improve this map is to properly use the elevation indicator to show vertical location. One up arrow means one level up, two up arrows mean two levels up, one down arrow means one level down, two down arrows means two level down, etc. Getting lost might be part of the fun but going down to ground level only to find out that the event is two levels up is not fun.

- Mastery Gated areas – at the end of an event, I’m suppose to get on a ledge where I need to use the mushroom for boost. Since I’ve mastered gliding, there’s no other way to get up there. The ugliest part is, the ‘copter that took us to the top stopped one level short and dropped up off next to a mushroom where we suppose to use it to get to the higher level — why in the world the ’copter didn’t just dropped us off the ledge where we’re supposed to be?

- Mob Glitches, I think – ok this is something I’m not sure about. There are time when I’m fighting a mob and they will simply disappear or become misplaced. Two things I know that can cause this; 1) the mob has stealth and teleport and 2) my party member pushed them back (kitten LB Rangers), however there are times where this thing happens when by myself. It looks like something I’ve experienced playing in WoW where I see a mob in front of me and I see their icon in the mini-map, yet when I get closer, they simply disappear — it’s an instancing issue that I think is also happening in GW2. Like I said, I’m not really sure what’s happening.

Conclusion:
- Obviously animations needs to improve.
- Damage needs to be rebalanced because while damage might be balance in PvP, it is horrible in PvE especially for P/P.
- P/P in PvE requires Ricochet. There’s no valid reason to make my PvE experience more harder than it is. P/P already sucks and I hope the re-iteration of this weapon set is way better and would arrive before release.
- Vertical maps needs a QoL improvement. A simple arrow indicator, similarly used on Waypoints, to be added to the event icon and commander icon will improve my player experience 10 folds.

That’s all I got from this weekend from DD — I played mostly with my Necro in PvP. There’s some other little thing, but those aren’t game breaking for me (for example, unskippable cut scene I’ve seen multiple times. I get it for the 4th time, Rithlock came from the Mist — let me skip it).

Karl McLain.5604:

Gray.9041:

cut!

Typo has been fixed.

You know you typed it wrong twice right? :P

Anyways, he’s just being nit picky…at least some of us know what you’re talking about.

Zero Day.2594:

I’m betting they’re waiting on us to forget so they can do a tooltip fix.

It’s really hard to forget when it’s in the Wiki.

Zodryn.4216:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Don’t you see how many times you have to tumble around and how much damage you’ve actually made?

Have you ever played an S/D thief before acro was gutted? That’s the playstyle. Always evading. And it does enough damage to have been meta right up there with D/P back in the day.

The difference is that back then, targets aren’t too tanky and condition damage was a joke. Jut compare the DPS of burning damage then and now.

With this kind of conditions, you are forced to remove them right away which would mean that you either use your utility or wait for an attack to evade.

You’ll be facing a lot of dilemma during a fight to either use dodge to remove condition or save it for evading a big attack — a situation that is never present to other professions. And if you make a mistake, you’re toast.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You’re not taking into the account the type of conditions you’re receiving. In my Reaper build, I can apply Blind, Bleed, Chill, Cripple, Fear, Burning without effort.

So I only need to worry about bleed and burn then. That makes it quite easy. I can basically ignore the others. Fear might make me blow a stun break though.

Easily said than done. If you worry about bleed and burn, you’ll have to evade some attacks — and EA has a 1s ICD, which means you have to eat the DPS from conditions for 1s where burning deals 350+ DPS and bleeding deals 100+ DPS per stack. If you got 3 stacks of burning, that’s over 1k DPS — and burning only last for 1-2s, which means you won’t even get a chance to mitigate the damage because as soon as you get off CD, the damage is done.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Isn’t that exactly what I’ve posted so far? Due to the cons of the OP’s build, he needs to play harder than he should and stay sober?

No, he just needs to not play like an idiot. Have you ever opened a fight by blowing all of your evades and other methods of survival? That’s what you’re expecting, and any thief worth his salt doesn’t play that way.

That’s not what I’m saying. If you start a fight, more than likely you’ll have conditions already on you before you can even get close which forces you to use your evade/dodge to remove conditions.

It’s very different if you don’t rely on EA to remove conditions.

Zodryn.4216:

Ok, there’s the problem. Nobody is going to open by blowing all of their endurance. That would deal no damage and leave me open to attack. I’ll open from 1800 range with 2 and steal. After the steal daze wears off, I’ll use 3 to dodge your first attack and land my third hit (got off an auto while you were dazed). I’ll eat your second attack to land larcenous strike and then do another flanking strike, removing 1 condi. If you applied more, I’ll retreat with 2 removing another condi and then reengage with 2 or a dash or signet depending on my needs followed by another 3 chain which will remove another condi.

Don’t you see how many times you have to tumble around and how much damage you’ve actually made?

If I get a bit low, withdraw. If I run out of endurance, I can remove a condi and refill endurance with a signet. I’m not saying I would never have conditions, but evades both prevent them being applied in the first place and remove ones that get through, and this build has a lot of evade access.

You’re not taking into the account the type of conditions you’re receiving. In my Reaper build, I can apply Blind, Bleed, Chill, Cripple, Fear, Burning without effort.

Naturally, you will smash a thief who mashes dodge until they’re out of endurance then mashes 3 until out of initiative. Good players time their skills and dodges so that they are effective though. That is true of any class, actually.

Isn’t that exactly what I’ve posted so far? Due to the cons of the OP’s build, he needs to play harder than he should and stay sober?

I’ve updated the Wiki with this bug hopefully it gets more attention.

Link : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Withdraw

evilapprentice.6379:

Terrorsquad.4802:

I already tried multiple times but you’ll have ppl in a few hours say “what they showed on stream is never final”. Which is somewhere true but there was no communication from Anet to say “hey, we’re not gonna buff Withdraw”.

As of this moment, after months, still no word about it.
As far as it’s feels, they’re letting Thief die, despite their hard work on Dare Devil..

But it’s not just “something they said in a stream” – it’s right there in the patch notes! I have a screenshot AND I saved the .htm page from the game release notes forum in case they change their mind about it later, but currently it’s a documented change that was just skipped.

Edit: Here’s the bullet point, copied and pasted from the June 23rd patch notes -

-Withdraw: This ability is now a trick. Increased the recharge of this ability from 15 to 18. Healing (both base and healing power) coefficients have been increased by 10%.

It seems that they just want people to forget all about the promised healing increase to justify the CD increase.

Amante.8109:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Unfortunately, that will give P/D 2 skills that evade back, not an ideal solution.

Indeed. Any change to Pistol #2 affects not just P/P but P/D, and a second “move back” skill would be redundant for P/D in particular.

Personally, I’d like to see Pistol #2 remade into some kind of short-range shotgun blast type ability that could be used for kiting or as a panic button for when someone gets in your face. Off the top of my head, it could look a little something like this:

Shrapnel Blast
4 Initiative, 1/4s Cast
Overload your pistol, discharging a blast of steam and shrapnel that does X damage and Cripples your primary target. Briefly Blind up to 5 enemies in the area around you.

Honestly, Unload should immobilize your target, I mean, think about it, if someone is unloading 2 pistols at you and would you just keep on running towards the shooter? Either you’re getting hit by the bullets or hiding behind a rock, you’re pinned down.

At the very least, make Ankle Shot base line for Unload.

This is why Revealed lasts 3-4 seconds.

According the main website, this is the “final” BWE and it’s irritating that a lot of the changes they’ve proposed will not be tested prior to release — that they will launch the expansion with half-fast profession skills. They will only have a little over 2.5 weeks after this BWE to finalize the changes…that’s cutting it really, really close.

I already feel sorry for the ArenaNet team who will put in tons of long of hours within that two and a half week time frame just to get this game ready for release.

messiah.1908:

the p/p need an evade skill so instead #2 immobilize make it evade back for 600 range like SB #3 than you will see some smart game play

and maybe more stealth ability so #2 can be leap so with 10 ini points you can spam only 1 unload so its fair use for it

Unfortunately, that will give P/D 2 skills that evade back, not an ideal solution.

Zodryn.4216:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Zodryn.4216:

Sword 3 is a dodge and attack, so yes you can deal damage while removing conditions with evades, even without lotus or bound.

Um, no. Sword 3 will not trigger Unhindered Combatant’s condition removal since it is not a Dodge. You’ll know when you used a dodge is when you dashed instead. Only then the condition removal from UC will trigger.

Keep in mind that “evade” means that you are evading an attack, but like I said in my first post, I can deny you that removal by not attacking you instead I’ll just load you up with conditions.

Sword 2 is a spammable gap closer, plus we have steal, and this build runs inf signet. That’s 2700 range if you want to go overboard. Chill will not keep me from getting close.

Did you even bother reading what I’ve posted?

So ok, you got close, then all you do is dodge because as soon as I hit, you get a condition.

Yes dash itself does no damage, but neither does a normal dodge. Are you never going to dodge on your reaper because it doesn’t do damage?

The point is, Thief relies on stealth and dodge to survive while other professions do not. And while you’re trying to survive, you deal no damage.

Of course not. You’ll use it as needed for damage mitigation. You’re not going to lose because you dodge your opponents attack. Nobody ever said the build consists of dashing all of the time.

If you want to remove the conditions then you have to. I can apply the conditions faster than you can remove them and you’re only real option is to run away.

Ok, I see where our disconnect is. You are under the impression you can somehow load someone up with conditions without ever hitting them. Please tell me what skills you’re using. Weapon skills, shouts, wells, corruptions etc. can all be evaded by either dodges, weapon evades, or utility evades. Also, other evades (read: sword 3) are just as effective at removing damaging condis as dash will be (provided you’re using a skill that’s evadable, which you must be to do any damage, condi or otherwise). Dash just has the benefit of also removing any inhibiting condi.

Not exactly what I’m talking about. Let me put it this way; I attack you. You dodged it…i failed to apply condition, but you’re down with one dodge, then I attack you again then the same thing happen you dodged it. Once your dodges are all gone, you start evading. Once your Initiatives are all gone, you’re now susceptible to conditions. From this point on, you’ll be dodging not to mitigate my attacks but to remove conditions. It just gets worse over time at this point because it only takes one Chill to screw your build over.

Shadow’s Embrace is still the best condition remover because not only it removes conditions, it also prevents your opponent from loading up more conditions — not to mention you get a tactical positioning advantage. You don’t get this from Dodge/Evades.

Starlightmagus.8654:

Honestly I’m going to side with the person saying that there’s no harm in dodging. I played Reaper pretty extensively in the last beta weekend, and many of the attacks are slow and ponderous. A thief that’s paying attention is going to be able to negate most of the damage from a reaper through good dodges, especially as a DD. Combined with the constant Condi removal from evades and the dodge trait, I honestly think you’d have a LOT of trouble keeping Chill on someone who wasn’t asleep at the keyboard.

I doubt that. You probably just spam your skills or have a bad build.

Zodryn.4216:

Sword 3 is a dodge and attack, so yes you can deal damage while removing conditions with evades, even without lotus or bound.

Um, no. Sword 3 will not trigger Unhindered Combatant’s condition removal since it is not a Dodge. You’ll know when you used a dodge is when you dashed instead. Only then the condition removal from UC will trigger.

Keep in mind that “evade” means that you are evading an attack, but like I said in my first post, I can deny you that removal by not attacking you instead I’ll just load you up with conditions.

Sword 2 is a spammable gap closer, plus we have steal, and this build runs inf signet. That’s 2700 range if you want to go overboard. Chill will not keep me from getting close.

Did you even bother reading what I’ve posted?

So ok, you got close, then all you do is dodge because as soon as I hit, you get a condition.

Yes dash itself does no damage, but neither does a normal dodge. Are you never going to dodge on your reaper because it doesn’t do damage?

The point is, Thief relies on stealth and dodge to survive while other professions do not. And while you’re trying to survive, you deal no damage.

Of course not. You’ll use it as needed for damage mitigation. You’re not going to lose because you dodge your opponents attack. Nobody ever said the build consists of dashing all of the time.

If you want to remove the conditions then you have to. I can apply the conditions faster than you can remove them and you’re only real option is to run away.

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

… it’s just that you have to play harder and sober.

Yeah, you gonna miss all your dodges if you’re either sleepy or under the influence…speaking from experience.

wolfgang.3471:

Yes vs necromancer this build will struggle, but in all honesty the amount of reveal from other classes means using SA trait line and focusing defense around stealth may be futile, if necromancer and maybe D/P thief are the counters to this i prefer that to playing a stealth orientated build and getting revealed by revenants, engineers, rangers.. Everything has a counter against it, just a matter of which has the least lol.

Yeah, stealthless is the only way that’s why the build has cons. Having cons doesn’t necessarily means it’s a bad build, it’s just that you have to play harder and sober.

Zodryn.4216:

So basically you’re saying everyone is screwed by Reaper, because if it gives a daredevil serious trouble even with good condi removal and practical immunity to inhibiting conditions, where does that leave everyone else?

Reaper will screw everyone, yes, that’s why you need other ways to deal with the situation.

He’ll be evading constantly (removing 1 condi each time) AND dealing damage with sword 3. If you do manage to land some nasty conditions, he has plenty of options including dodging. You are acting like dodging is a bad thing.

It is. The more you dodge, the less damage you make….it’s an undeniable fact.

Sure, dodging isn’t dealing damage, but we can just mix occasional dodges with weapon evades.

Lotus Training and Bounding is your only choice if you want to maintain DPS while dodging, but of course, you’ll lose the chill removal on dodge.

Also, chill doesn’t affect our weapon skills, so if we don’t want to cleanse it with a dodge, we can keep attacking with little consequence.

Not if you can’t get in melee range. Are you then going for a shoot-out against other professions who out-ranged you by 300 range?

You have no stealth, thus any profession can keep you in a distance. And if you manage to get closer, all you will be doing is dodging and evading…until you die or run away (if you can).

BWE 3 is Holloween for Thieves.

wolfgang.3471:

Ok so say i was overloaded with conditions i have a 24 second recharge on signet of endurance that clears all and replenishes all endurance.

Ok say that wasn’t enough the enemy saved some condi burst applied more even if i went in for damage by dodging and using sword 3 i will be stripping a couple of condis while dealing damage – this is without using my heal.

Say the fight is going utter kittens i can always shadow step and cure 3 condis and use dodges for swiftness and get the out of there.

In my honest opinion conditions will not be an issue to this build with the D/P meta build at the moment we deal with conditions through stealth which removes 1 every 4 seconds ( we don’t deal damage – this also prolongs the fight ) then we burst in and out the same principle applied with sword 2 (or steal or signet or shadow step ) in burst with sword 3 couple of auto come out cleanse, rinse and repeat – after every successful dodge we get a 10% damage bonus on top of having 70% crit chance and abou 235% crit damage and 3k power, a solid health pool and good plentiful conditions cleanse and a means of mobility.

I’m speaking from the perspective of a Reaper and I’m telling you, my Reaper build will give your Thief build so much problem. Unlike stealth, where it’s harder to stack conditions, your build is a static target.

That is all.

Are we talking potential damage or actual damage?

Actual damage will put D/P ahead of D/D and P/P, but you got it right if it is potential damage.

S/x and Staff deals more actual damage than P/P because they cleave.

Shortbow deals more actual damage than P/P because of AoE.

P/D deals more actual damage than P/P because of the number of available conditions and it can be applied to multiple targets.

In conclusion, P/P is more like located close to the corner where every other weapon set out-damages it

Zodryn.4216:

You remove 1 condi on evade, but remove every inhibiting condi on dodge whether it was an evade or not.

Yes but the problem with using a dodge to remove condition is that you can use that endurance to actually evading an attack instead of removing a condition. Utility Skills exists for that very reason. Thus, as I have posted, it is a con of the build that the OP needs to watch out for — and perhaps makes adjustments depending on the situation and probably using the one I suggested.

Conditions will be a problem in the upcoming meta, it is best to have as many options as possible. Dodging is not a solution in my opinion because if your opponent can force you to dodge, you’re not doing DPS.

legenduu.4372:

I was in a 1v1 pvp lobby, playing s/d crit, i beat an ele then he stated “thief is the strongest class omg, ele’s have the weakest damage” -_- DONE

edit: i uninstalled after

I was in 1v1 pvp lobby once, playing D/P crit, I beat another D/P crit Thief, then he stated “D/P Thief is the strongest OMG!!! So OP!! NERF!!!”
>.<’

DONE

Zodryn.4216:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

More Cons:
- Load you up with conditions and watch you die. Since you rely on evade for condition removal, I won’t even attack you.
- Bleed, Chill and Cripple will be the easiest conditions to apply and you’d be wasting precious endurance and initiatives just to remove them.
- While dodging and evading, you’re not doing DPS.
- Confusion will cut your DPS.
- Chill will screw you over big time due to your stun breaks’ long CD.

EDIT:
Suggestions:
Bountiful Theft -> Trickster (when you evade with Withdraw, you remove 2 conditions due to EA)
Shadowstep -> Scorpion Wire (condition remover)

It’s not a bad build, just need to watch out for these Cons. Hopefully your 16k HP is enough to buy you time while you’re fully loaded with conditions. Have fun in BWE.

This build should not have condi issues. Three stun breaks, immob and inhib cleanse on heal and dodge, general condi cleanse on sword 2, shadow step, signet, and successful evade. How do you figure he will have condi problems?

I thought you’d figure that out by reading my post, but here it is again.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

- Bleed, Chill and Cripple will be the easiest conditions to apply and you’d be wasting precious endurance and initiatives just to remove them.

Shadowstep is unreliable at 50s CD especially when Chilled constantly.

You’re consuming the wrong plasma — you have to consume Plasma 2.0 stolen from Chronomancers, not just plain Mesmer

(yes I’m bs-ing you)

More Cons:
- Load you up with conditions and watch you die. Since you rely on evade for condition removal, I won’t even attack you.
- Bleed, Chill and Cripple will be the easiest conditions to apply and you’d be wasting precious endurance and initiatives just to remove them.
- While dodging and evading, you’re not doing DPS.
- Confusion will cut your DPS.
- Chill will screw you over big time due to your stun breaks’ long CD.

EDIT:
Suggestions:
Bountiful Theft → Trickster (when you evade with Withdraw, you remove 2 conditions due to EA)
Shadowstep → Scorpion Wire (condition remover)

It’s not a bad build, just need to watch out for these Cons. Hopefully your 16k HP is enough to buy you time while you’re fully loaded with conditions. Have fun in BWE.

I tested it out this damage increase last night and I can definitely tell the difference — if I’m not moving at all. Since it requires for Thief to tumble around, this damage increase is negligible. Remove the pre-cast and after-cast delays for crying out loud if you want to make the weapon set more fluid.

Completely missed the mark on this one.

We asked for pre-cast delay to be removed from Vital Shot, they give us damage buff.

Sign of how clueless they are.

And if what Karl has posted is to be believed — which I’m getting more skeptical by the day — this issue would be resolved…but I highly doubt it when they show less competence for each patch they make.

However, all credit to Karl for actually studying and learning the profession so that we can get a meaningful patch — something that actually improves the profession instead of nerfing it to the ground.