Guild Wars 2

SlayerSixx.5763:

Bow beats scepter every time. THERE SHALL BE NO FURTHER DISCUSSION ON THIS TOPIC.

Whether relying on stealth or evades to cleanse condis and avoid damage is more efficient has yet to be seen, but with all of the reveal and how stealth won’t stop that reaper or tempest from aoeing you to kingdom come my bet is on the evades providing a more powerful impact. Simply put, DD gives thieves the tools they need to actually tango with an enemy that core thief does not. May not be overpowered, but almost seems mandatory.

I suppose my opinion just isn’t shared by the rest of you guys, ah well.

You see, based on ArenaNet’s history, the new stuff might look good right now until they hit it with a nerf bat — after that, there shouldn’t be any argument about HoT being P2W, instead it would be “Buyer’s Remorse”.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

SlayerSixx.5763:

Zero Day.2594:

SlayerSixx.5763:

What is, generally, the amount your average micro transaction must reach when it gives you an advantage for it to be considered pay2win?

It’s not the amount of micro transactions… it’s something that’s readily available for purchase via micro transactions that gives a clear advantage. Another example is say there were “VIP” weapons that you could buy (ofc they expire after x days or don’t and just VIPv2 weapons come out) that had a 20% stat increase on ascended gear.

So…

Something readily available for purchase….

That gives an advantage….

Like HoT?

HoT is a mixed basket.

In terms of Necro -> Reaper, yes it is Pay-2-Win…I haven’t steam rolled anyone in PvP using a Necro before. Reaper with 100% crit chance and applying 12 stacks of Vulnerability is definitely a definition of pay to win.

However, DD is hardly a pay to win, nor is Tempest, nor is Dragon Hunter. Berserker is meh.

So overall, it even itself out.

Hey, I love DD and DH T.T.

DH gives guard a universal gap closer that immobilizes and heals when traited and looks kitten cool. They also get even smarter usage of their VoC which is just so sweet. I’m on the fence for the VoJ since it only REALLY does something for condi guards and even then, it requires a lot of traiting.

DD gives thieves the option of actively negating damage (tons of evade when traited) AND a rather acceptable way of cleansing conditions (imagine how many condis a guard would cleanse FOR you with WW xD?). Not to mention that dodges don’t remove cap contribution meaning that thieves that want to avoid damage/cleanse AND hold a point 1v1 are capable of doing so. Are specs like reaper deadly as balls? Sure, but I’ve seen enough DDs humiliate a reaper in melee range to know that DD may not fit into the current meta, but they’re plenty strong.

Personally, I can only see positives coming from my swapping a trait line out for DD and DH respectively.

What I’m saying is that these professions are not considered P2W — which implies improvement or overpowered. In the case of DD and DH, they basically remain the same.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Zero Day.2594:

SlayerSixx.5763:

What is, generally, the amount your average micro transaction must reach when it gives you an advantage for it to be considered pay2win?

It’s not the amount of micro transactions… it’s something that’s readily available for purchase via micro transactions that gives a clear advantage. Another example is say there were “VIP” weapons that you could buy (ofc they expire after x days or don’t and just VIPv2 weapons come out) that had a 20% stat increase on ascended gear.

So…

Something readily available for purchase….

That gives an advantage….

Like HoT?

HoT is a mixed basket.

In terms of Necro → Reaper, yes it is Pay-2-Win…I haven’t steam rolled anyone in PvP using a Necro before. Reaper with 100% crit chance and applying 12 stacks of Vulnerability is definitely a definition of pay to win.

However, DD is hardly a pay to win, nor is Tempest, nor is Dragon Hunter. Berserker is meh.

So overall, it even itself out.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Labjax.2465:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

This is essentially what even seasoned thieves go through. The current balance says that if a thief chooses to engage, be that contesting a point or anything that isnt +1, he’s going to melt. It isnt that the cap is high, its that thief is supposed to be anywhere people are not.

Which is pretty contrary to the whole concept of a thief might I add.

If that’s true, I would say it’s not so much a contradiction of the thief concept, as it is a contradiction of what PvP is. If PvP is largely defined as combat between players, then a class whose primary role is to avoid combat is ill-fitting to that definition.

PvP is obviously not only combat, but combat is the primary determining factor. So a class whose role in combat is diminished is a class that is arguably worth less in casual scenarios. (I imagine competitive, team meta is its own beast entirely).

That is the role they are given. And a role they have held since the beginning of the game. But the usefulness of the role is at ita strongest in casual play.

What would you change? What would you alter to achieve that change?

On the contrary, at the beginning of the game, other professions drop like flies in both sPvP and WvW to a Thief using either D/D or S/D. I know — I was there — it WAS fun while it lasted.

This “+1, decap, and run” nonsense was developed in response to the excessive nerfs that the Thief had received over time.

Zero Day.2594:

SlayerSixx.5763:

Pay 50$ to not get rekt. Sounds pay2win, unless there’s an actual textbook definition for it

Typically it’s something you can purchase via micro transaction that gives you a clear advantage, for instance stat boosters.

Now-a-days people stretched the definition so thin that having a better internet connection is probably considered p2w.

Nah, P2W is having SSD, i7 CPU, and 980 Ti GTX graphics.

Internet connection will always be crappy. No amount of money can buy a flawless connection.

Don’t hold your breath. We’ve been waiting for 4 months now.

Furajir.3815:

With the new evades that throw daggers and cause condis, anyone have any luck with a staff/condi thief? Relying on lots of dodging and torment etc?

Lotus Training is not that great for applying condition IMO — I abused the heck out of it the last BWE and it’s not what I expected. You have a better result in applying bleeding and torment using P/D.

Raiden.1375:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

That’s why it’s UPTO 30s because by that time, either your team is applying chill every second maintaining 5 stacks, or the venom wears off naturally after that time.

Yeah. Though if your allies are waiting for chill stacks to go away, that means they aren’t attacking the enemy player, which probably isn’t the most efficient way to down someone. Another thing is if 5 people are focusing one enemy applying that much chill, the chill probably isn’t the biggest thing the enemy will be worrying about.

Worst case is that they have a bunker Herald, with Facet of Light and Chaos active, being healed by 4 Druids that requires all 5 of your team to attempt to down and your only hope is to chill the Herald for upto 30s to somehow create a window of opportunity. I don’t know, kitten like that can happen.

Raiden.1375:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Per the OP, Ice Drake Venom looks good when shared and worthless when not. Just to give you an example, two Thieves sharing venom one after the other can extend the chill upto 8s. Since it can be shared upto 5 party members, you can chill a target upto 30s (or when the venom wears off).

True, except allies will have to wait for the first 5 chill stacks to wear off before applying theirs, since chill was limited to a max of 5 stacks in the July 7th patch. The chill duration should just be increased to 2 seconds per application or reworked to something else like what was suggested in this thread.

That’s why it’s UPTO 30s because by that time, either your team is applying chill every second maintaining 5 stacks, or the venom wears off naturally after that time.

AgitatedFox.5287:

TL;DR – Thief gains stealth on the AA for 1/2s every 3rd attack.

~snip~

P.S, I don’t main thief and I’m not a smart person so please don’t flame me like, lack of understanding XD. Just an Idea.

The first thing that ArenaNet needs to do to have a meaning positive change for the Thief is to remove the self-inflicting Revealed from our skills so ideas like yours will have a chance to be considered.

Until then…it’s nothing but an idea.

Nocta.5274:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shadowstep.6049:

Because they need to sell HoT and what is better way to do it than create artificial demand by nerfing thief to oblivion and give rev all that thieves ever wanted?

They didn’t even stop there. They nerfed the core game as a whole and put all the goodies behind the pay wall. You want legendary? Too bad, the precursor will no longer drop after HoT since you can craft it there. If you want a legendary, you need to buy HoT.

Precursors for vanilla legendaries can still be obtained the normal way. I’m not sure but precursor crafting might even be something everyone get, even without buying HoT.
Also, since when expansion are waywalling stuff in a MMO. This whole argument over other parts of the forum is ridiculous.

Of course. I was being sarcastic.

If ArenaNet would create an artificial demand, wouldn’t they have done it on the Legendaries instead of the Thief skills? Since they didn’t, this idea of “artificial demand” must be false.

Auesis.7301:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

In PvE, definitely Staff without a doubt. The AoE damage from Vault+Bound is just too hard to pass up. However, for a single target boss fight for instance, I’ll still take D/D only because of backstab and faster auto-attack.

Staff auto is as fast as Dagger. It’s actually about 3ms faster.

I can’t find any way to justify ever using D/D when the numbers on Weakening Charge, Vault and the autos are as high as they are along with their cast times, with far more multipliers than Trickery. D/x is pretty much a PvP weapon when people have got used to Staff.

It felt slower in the last BWE. Well, then if that is the case, BS is still a good reason to take D/D during a boss fight.

Shadowstep.6049:

Because they need to sell HoT and what is better way to do it than create artificial demand by nerfing thief to oblivion and give rev all that thieves ever wanted?

They didn’t even stop there. They nerfed the core game as a whole and put all the goodies behind the pay wall. You want legendary? Too bad, the precursor will no longer drop after HoT since you can craft it there. If you want a legendary, you need to buy HoT.

In PvE, definitely Staff without a doubt. The AoE damage from Vault+Bound is just too hard to pass up. However, for a single target boss fight for instance, I’ll still take D/D only because of backstab and faster auto-attack.

As long as venom can be shared, there will be no good suggestion will ever be implemented for the venom — we’ve been waiting for it for a very long time now.

Venom Aura is the reason why venoms have such a long CD — without that trait, venoms would be balanced at 10s-15s CD and probably with increased condition duration. As of right now, any buffs on the venoms would be OP when shared.

Per the OP, Ice Drake Venom looks good when shared and worthless when not. Just to give you an example, two Thieves sharing venom one after the other can extend the chill upto 8s. Since it can be shared upto 5 party members, you can chill a target upto 30s (or when the venom wears off).

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

…
I want a rapid clicking feature to be part of the game….those stacks of Essence of Luck is starting to irritate my index finger — it’s starting to affect my 1v1.

:( Sorry to hear that bro… try

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Keyboard-to-Click-Instead-of-a-Mouse

Pair that with a macro…

I’m hesitant to use macros and my mouse has the rapid click feature, but ArenaNet is not very clear if that is “legal” — I don’t want to lose my account for crappy Magic Find — so I use my middle finger instead…that’s why I have 4 fingers and a thumb.

Keyboard macros that have sleep/time between presses…

Honestly if they ban someone for that and the person that got banned puts up a case/emails them – and they still don’t revoke their ban… Well, at that point they could walk away knowing that ANet doesn’t care much for their customers. Considering “open/consume all” is one of the most requested features… And if I as player have to find a work around for a quality of life improvement that’s being and been requested (for god knows how long), you’re doing something wrong as a developer.

I personally use the keyboard clicking w/o macro sometimes for that, I find that it’s faster than normal clicks.

Yeah, well the Thief is the living evidence that ArenaNet is doing something wrong as a developer — which is larger than a one-click-open/consume-all feature.

In their defense, a one-click-open/consume-all feature is much easier to implement than good role diversity and balance.

Let’s start with the small things and gradually progress to build self-confidence… so they can have it to tackle the big things.

I’m actually quite annoyed that they feel that the Action Camera is more important than one-click-open/consume-all feature

bliss.4305:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

*snip *

I don’t understand that kind of logic… How are you more susceptible to pressure when the heal amount is exactly the same (be it having 20k hp or 10k hp…) You’re under the exact same pressure as the HP that needs to be shaved to get you down is precisely the same.

Let me put it this way.

With 20K, you can take three 5k hits before you go on critical low HP, while at 10k you can only take one 5k hit, thus every 5k hit puts you on a critical level which means you’re under a constant pressure.

It’s not about how much heal you make, but how much damage you can take before healing.

That being said, low HP and heal synergy is something to consider. Seeing, there are abilities like Heartseeker or traits like Executioner which benefit your opponent on the % of your health, is it better to have a lower health pool so heal pushes you above those tresholds?

Quite the opposite. If you’re taking 5k per hit, each hit will put you on the threshold if you have 10k HP, while with 20k, you can postpone your heal up to two hits. Also, with the bonus damage you’ll receive when you drop to 50%, with 5k left to your HP will surely drop you — while a 10k left on your HP at 50% is still survivable.

The math would probably drive me insane but regardless, I believe the HP sweetspot for thieves will always be sliiiiiightly above a full-burst from other stealthed classes to have at least a form of counter to being ganked (which is around 15-17k depending on your level of toughness – at its current state).

That’s true. 15k with at least 2200 toughness is the sweet spot. It’s hard to go 17k without shaving off some damage potential.

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

…
I want a rapid clicking feature to be part of the game….those stacks of Essence of Luck is starting to irritate my index finger — it’s starting to affect my 1v1.

:( Sorry to hear that bro… try

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Keyboard-to-Click-Instead-of-a-Mouse

Pair that with a macro…

I’m hesitant to use macros and my mouse has the rapid click feature, but ArenaNet is not very clear if that is “legal” — I don’t want to lose my account for crappy Magic Find — so I use my middle finger instead…that’s why I have 4 fingers and a thumb.

Keyboard macros that have sleep/time between presses…

Honestly if they ban someone for that and the person that got banned puts up a case/emails them – and they still don’t revoke their ban… Well, at that point they could walk away knowing that ANet doesn’t care much for their customers. Considering “open/consume all” is one of the most requested features… And if I as player have to find a work around for a quality of life improvement that’s being and been requested (for god knows how long), you’re doing something wrong as a developer.

I personally use the keyboard clicking w/o macro sometimes for that, I find that it’s faster than normal clicks.

Yeah, well the Thief is the living evidence that ArenaNet is doing something wrong as a developer — which is larger than a one-click-open/consume-all feature.

IchigoHatake.5098:

Yep I just checked, VAMP RUNES ARE GETTING NERFED. No more Survivability :P just great. Pack runes it is :P

Just to give it a source:

FYI: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/We-want-Zealot-Amulet-for-HoT/page/3#post5616775

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

…
I want a rapid clicking feature to be part of the game….those stacks of Essence of Luck is starting to irritate my index finger — it’s starting to affect my 1v1.

:( Sorry to hear that bro… try

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Keyboard-to-Click-Instead-of-a-Mouse

Pair that with a macro…

I’m hesitant to use macros and my mouse has the rapid click feature, but ArenaNet is not very clear if that is “legal” — I don’t want to lose my account for crappy Magic Find — so I use my middle finger instead…that’s why I have 4 fingers and a thumb.

Zero Day.2594:

Also, what’s with the obsessions of using 1v1 for balance…?

Like sure, you can probably balance it for 1v1…. soon as groups form up that synergize well together, those will be out of whack.

1v1 isn’t a mode (yet, come the guild halls…), at most it’s a scenario or a moment in something much larger….

Funny that you mentioned that. There are those who complains about the current and the upcoming meta, yet they argue to keep the current meta and not want it to change.

If they sincerely wants to change the meta, then this mindset about 1v1, +1, and decapping needs to be thrown out the window and let other options be explored.

I want to complain about me not begin awarded for finding the most optimal path between the banker and the TP! Thief can do it better than most. Better balance classes around that. (If you don’t get it, I made up my own game mode, racing between the banker and TP… I also feel that the game should be balanced around that, because I think it’s THE GAME MODE since I and a couple of buddies play it….. also I’m kind of mocking you)

I want a rapid clicking feature to be part of the game….those stacks of Essence of Luck is starting to irritate my index finger — it’s starting to affect my 1v1.

Zero Day.2594:

Plus most of these kinds of discussion involve personal opinions or experiences and references to others’… Very little facts, if any. You could just as well discredit everyone here since they’re not one of the top 5 thieves (or something) – who are they to talk if they haven’t mastered AND proven (via tournies) that they know their stuff.

Aw come on, I wanted to ride the wave a bit longer. Geeze.

Christonya.3856:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

First, Thief cannot 1v1 if using ‘zerker amulet, then on the next statement, where pros are using marauder amulet speaks that thieves aren’t good at 1v1 right now.

…… Thieves can’t 1v1. And then my second statement is that the pros confirm it. I get 99% of trolls are stupid, but come on, are you THAT stupid?

Which contradicts with your first statement….lols

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Yet, you see them being phased out in high-level matches in its current state…lol

Fixed that last bit for you.

Right. The most recent Finals disagree with your credible opinion.

Christonya.3856:

When you’re playing against the guys you see in tournaments, you can’t use berserker amulet, you will be worthless the entire game, dead on the floor. Not to mention you won’t be able to 1v1 any one. Ever. Doesnt matter whom.

Christonya.3856:

There’s a reason people keep saying “Teef only good at recap” It’s because its true. Listen to the ‘pro’ thieves as they explicitly say "I find it hard to 1v1 most match ups, thieves just arn’t good at 1v1 right now .. "

It’s funny how contradictory these statements are.

First, Thief cannot 1v1 if using ‘zerker amulet, then on the next statement, where pros are using marauder amulet speaks that thieves aren’t good at 1v1 right now.

lol — which is it?

I tend to agree with the pros because no matter what your build is, you’re not meant to go 1v1 anymore. Instead, Thieves are better off staying with a small group protecting a node. Of course, other professions can do this better, then there’s nothing for Thief to do.

So the advice not to go ‘zerker is useless because it doesn’t really matter.

And it’s attitude like yours thats preventing thieves from having a place in the meta game for HOT. As it stands, thieves in their current state won’t see any play in high level matches, the class is just flat out inferior in every way.

Yet, you see them in high-level matches in its current state…lol — credible much?

Christonya.3856:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Christonya.3856:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Christonya.3856:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Can you imagine if the Shiro Skill set was given to Thief instead?.

Yeah. Thief might actually go into HOT viable. As it stands we are not because of poor decision making on Anets part. But if say… thieves got tools they needed, like a way to remove condi’s from themselves, well then…. Thats a step in the right direction.

Hence “Planting”.

I’m sorry, just being uber skeptic at this point.

Trolling* is the correct term. All your posts in all threads have had zero credibility, and you seem to enjoy handing out false information and poorly thought out opinions.

And this opinion is not poorly thought out?

Glad to know.

My opinion is that you’re trolling. Which you are. So no, it is not poorly thought out.

Ah, but your opinion lies on the 2nd sentence which suffers from the very accusation you used against me.

Now, how much credibility does an opinion has, calling another zero credibility, when their own credibility is questionable seeing that they are making false accusations?

I’ll just leave it at that.

Christonya.3856:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Christonya.3856:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Can you imagine if the Shiro Skill set was given to Thief instead?.

Yeah. Thief might actually go into HOT viable. As it stands we are not because of poor decision making on Anets part. But if say… thieves got tools they needed, like a way to remove condi’s from themselves, well then…. Thats a step in the right direction.

Hence “Planting”.

I’m sorry, just being uber skeptic at this point.

Trolling* is the correct term. All your posts in all threads have had zero credibility, and you seem to enjoy handing out false information and poorly thought out opinions.

And this opinion is not poorly thought out?

Glad to know.

bliss.4305:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The deciding factor for me between Vitality vs Toughness is based on which heal I take.

Right now I have Withdraw almost all the time so I lean towards more Vitality.

When I used to take Hide in Shadows, I focused more on Toughness to allow the regen to have better effective heal. Coupled with Shadow Arts, the high toughness allowed me to roam even with 10k health — but that’s a long time ago.

To be honest, I’m suprised you don’t go the opposite way around, considering HiS has a higher base heal value and an additional heal over time value, meaning with a higher health pool, you could use more room to make mistakes and heal back to 100%.

With withdraw, lets say if you had 10k hp, you’d heal half of it up. If you have 20k Hp, you’d heal 1/4 up, meaning the lower HP you have the more “effective” withdraw is (although its totally not and its just an illusion :p)

I used to think that, but having lower HP using Withdraw makes you susceptible to pressure. The extra health allows Withdraw to get off CD.

If you have 10k health and taking 5k damage, each hit will bring you down to 50% which put you in trouble, where a 5k damage to 20k health only brings you to 25%. Meaning you can take extra hits while Withdraw is in CD.

I recommend HiS if you’re going low HP build because the stealth prevents further damage on you, given that you also spec for SA.

IMO, it’s too risky to go 10k HP without HiS.

The trick here is to use your heal potential to a maximum and not “waste” your heal by limiting it to your HP. So, if you’ve lost around 3k HP and you lose Withdraw, you “waste” less heal compared to same situation using HiS… Hope that makes some sense at least -_-’’

Of course, you don’t want to overheal yourself, but if you build with toughness and stealth, by the time HiS gets off CD, you’ve taken enough damage that you won’t overheal yourself.

That being said, since cooldown of Withdraw is just too freaking low compared to HiS, in both scenarios I’d argue it’s the Best-in-Slot heal for thieves anyway.

I agree. Besides, Thieves should take both Vitality AND Toughness anyway.

But for those who likes to take risk, we have a heal that can complement those choices.

Well, just my opinion anyways :p

Everything is.

The deciding factor for me between Vitality vs Toughness is based on which heal I take.

Right now I have Withdraw almost all the time so I lean towards more Vitality.

When I used to take Hide in Shadows, I focused more on Toughness to allow the regen to have better effective heal. Coupled with Shadow Arts, the high toughness allowed me to roam even with 10k health — but that’s a long time ago.

Bllade.1029:

Also, i’m pretty sure Sir Vivcent is a Thief RP’er or something. It’s pretty obvious judging by his/her comments that he in fact doesn’t actually play a Thief in Spvp.

Are you really sure?

Once upon a time when Thief was viable using D/D and S/D, I was playing sPvP. Nowadays, I just watch the “pro” fails in their Thief. It’s really sad.

I’d rather see CnD includes shadowstep where you teleport to the target and stab them. It justifies the cost and the casting time.

Combined Training
Pistol Mastery
Ricochet
Withdraw’s lost 10% healing buff

Starlightmagus.8654:

I honestly don’t understand the mentality that ‘teef only good at recap’. When playing in SPvP I win the vast majority of 1v1s on my thief (unless going up against something where it’s futile. Looking at you, minionmancers). In a group fight, I tend to play the edges, applying pressure on someone who is weak, making them blow defensive CDs, disengaging and striking another target. Oftentimes in something like a 3v3 I can often burst down an opponent or interrupt to the point where it completely destroyed an enemy group’s ability to support one another.

My real bane are competent support guards, as there’s really very little I can do against them outside of pressuring them to the point of stopping them from being as useful to their team. Usually I’d like to rely on someone else to deal with them.

Ultimately, thief is what you make of it and I think the line of thought that ‘teef only good at recap’ is pretty much poison for the class. Yes, it’s a viable tactic that’s worked well in the past. The state of the game ‘is’ evolving and as a result it’s becoming less viable. This doesn’t mean the class is useless by any means. In my opinion you have far too many people who rely on others to do their thinking and strategizing for them.

For competitive games, I run d/p + shortbow Berserker Amulet. I’ve tried Marauder, but I find the increase in passive survivability (increased health pool) doesn’t balance out for my playstyle against the increased burst potential and reliance on active defenses of Berserker. I may yet shift over, but we’ll see where things go. I feel I should also note that I do not use the ‘meta’ build with its reliance on the SA tree. Currently I run Trickery/DA/Acrobatics. In HoT, that is likely to shift to either Trickery/DD/Acro or Trickery/DA/DD. The condition cleanse on evade is a beautiful thing.

If you haven’t really given it too much of a try, I really do suggest giving Hard to Catch in Acrobatics a chance. It does a LOT to prevent lockdowns and subsequent death, letting you save things like Shadowstep for other purposes. Point being…Thief could use help in some areas for sure. But it’s not so dire a situation as people are making it out to be. Find new tactics. Think outside the box a bit. Don’t just go with what is ‘accepted’.

+1

Gray.9041:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

T raw.4658:

You don’t even play thief do you LOL.

Wow

Watching the pro-players do exactly that is enough IMO.

no offense but… that’s really not how it works.

I mean, I can listen to musicians all day, doesn’t mean I know what strings work on a guitar.

So you mean to say that you can never know something from observing?

I guess you’ll never know that sulfuric acid will melt your hands then unless you did it to yourself.

If that’s the case, then the OP is wrong also by stating;

“Serious discussion b/c from the way things are going thieves are really falling fast.”

I wonder who these “thieves” are, if not some other players he had observed.

What ever then.

Christonya.3856:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Can you imagine if the Shiro Skill set was given to Thief instead?.

Yeah. Thief might actually go into HOT viable. As it stands we are not because of poor decision making on Anets part. But if say… thieves got tools they needed, like a way to remove condi’s from themselves, well then…. Thats a step in the right direction.

Hence “Planting”.

I’m sorry, just being uber skeptic at this point.

Christonya.3856:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Christonya.3856:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Christonya.3856:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I get the “plant” part, but why in the world would you want to steal conditions in the first place?

You arn’t stealing conditions, you’re simply planting the conditions that some one has applied to you, back on them (Or some one else).

But I had thought about, ‘what if’ our elite wasnt DD and I always thought of a more supportive shadow caster type deal that would ‘steal’ condi’s from allies and ‘plant’ them on enemies.

Necro already does that. Plague Signet

Thief can shadow step. So can mesmers. Your point ?

The point is, if ArenaNet will ever add that feature, it won’t be given to the Thief.

Why…. Not ? Mesmers have plague signet… Just as the necros do. Giving similar tools to other classes happen all the time, and a class like thief that is struggling extremely hard to not only APPLY conditions, but REMOVE them can have both problems solve easily with a simple change.

That’s based on ArenaNet’s track record.

Can you imagine if the Shiro Skill set was given to Thief instead?

I’m pretty sure that most of the Shiro Skills are from Thief ideas box, which will also happen to this idea.

It’s inevitable.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

mompen.7952:

So I’ve tinkered a bit with this one:

The Exuberance Thief:

(WvW roaming)

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoaVl0MhSnYvTw7Jw/EHwEkPNxpN7Ls8UoTQAyAA-T1CFABVfEAWTLQw7P02DAAgTAwVKBRSJSSKvSTXwCHCAVU/hUAUszC-w

It has high HP (20k with foods) and runes/food that utilize a high HP-pool.

Rest of the setup is pretty standard, but you may notice no shadowarts, whuut?
All my tricks remove conditions and have reduced CD’s and my sigils remove conditions. Sigil of generosity is (?) the most expensive sigil in the game atm, but very worth it. Always funny to transfer burn stacks back to guards/engi’s.

It has good power, very high ferocity meaning your crits hit pretty hard (Hidden Killer for guaranteed crit backstabs) and a high HP-pool. After guard stacks getting removed this is crucial.

You might survive against condition damage but just watch out for other ‘zerker because with that base toughness and without stealth, you’re an easy kill.

roll for ini (or withdraw, if there were no stuns) and mug+sleight of hand should be enough to buy him time to stealth and GTFO if he gets surprise bursted.

That’s the thing, he has no stealth. :/

he has D/P and SR, unless i clicked the wrong build.

Nevermind it’s me. For some reason I missed that.

honestly, if the plan is to disengage, just shadowstep as soon as you’re done teleporting everywhere and use D/P from the safety of the ~1500 range you put between you and your target, then swap to shortbow and move away even more.

Yup. You’re right.

T raw.4658:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

T raw.4658:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

T raw.4658:

Is close to being matched by another class or negated to a point of who cares what will keep the thief in PvP? Serious discussion b/c from the way things are going thieves are really falling fast.

Yes currently with SB 5 and what not we are fast point to point. We can jump a fight and make it a nice +1 (though I must say with the sturdiness of classes now its more like +0.75). Problem is I see a trend where thieves’ mobility isn’t quite the must have. Yes I know right now thieves still have a place, but HoT is going to change A LOT.

I dunno if Dash + SB5 will be enough in light of yet another power creep where thieves’ creep just looks lack luster.

discuss

The Meta-Mindset is the problem. Whoever thought that Thief is only good on decapping and +1 needs to rethink the meta again.

Time and time again, I’ve watched matches where one team protects 2 nodes and protect them really well — no need for rotation or decapping. It only takes 3 members to protect a node and that could be a Necro, Engi, and a Thief (for example) — allowing the Thief to build pure DPS and brawl. However, this current meta only believes that Thief is only good at nothing but hopping around the map — which often times never works.

Thief don’t even need to go around the map looking to +1, they just need to stay in a node doing DPS.

Alas, it will take a while to get rid of this +1 meta-mindset.

Why would you even bother with a thief at that point when there are other classes that do that significantly better than a thief. Then there is the whole focus thief causing him to either:
A. Die making it now a 3v2
B. Run away making it now a 3v2

So really thanks again for helping prove my point!

On top of that, Thieves are built to run away in the current meta, but I’m seeing more and more Marauder builds which imply the Thief is gearing for staying power.

You don’t even play thief do you LOL.

Wow

Watching the pro-players do exactly that is enough IMO.

Christonya.3856:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Christonya.3856:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I get the “plant” part, but why in the world would you want to steal conditions in the first place?

You arn’t stealing conditions, you’re simply planting the conditions that some one has applied to you, back on them (Or some one else).

But I had thought about, ‘what if’ our elite wasnt DD and I always thought of a more supportive shadow caster type deal that would ‘steal’ condi’s from allies and ‘plant’ them on enemies.

Necro already does that. Plague Signet

Thief can shadow step. So can mesmers. Your point ?

The point is, if ArenaNet will ever add that feature, it won’t be given to the Thief.

Christonya.3856:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I get the “plant” part, but why in the world would you want to steal conditions in the first place?

You arn’t stealing conditions, you’re simply planting the conditions that some one has applied to you, back on them (Or some one else).

But I had thought about, ‘what if’ our elite wasnt DD and I always thought of a more supportive shadow caster type deal that would ‘steal’ condi’s from allies and ‘plant’ them on enemies.

Necro already does that. Plague Signet

BrunoBRS.5178:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

mompen.7952:

So I’ve tinkered a bit with this one:

The Exuberance Thief:

(WvW roaming)

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoaVl0MhSnYvTw7Jw/EHwEkPNxpN7Ls8UoTQAyAA-T1CFABVfEAWTLQw7P02DAAgTAwVKBRSJSSKvSTXwCHCAVU/hUAUszC-w

It has high HP (20k with foods) and runes/food that utilize a high HP-pool.

Rest of the setup is pretty standard, but you may notice no shadowarts, whuut?
All my tricks remove conditions and have reduced CD’s and my sigils remove conditions. Sigil of generosity is (?) the most expensive sigil in the game atm, but very worth it. Always funny to transfer burn stacks back to guards/engi’s.

It has good power, very high ferocity meaning your crits hit pretty hard (Hidden Killer for guaranteed crit backstabs) and a high HP-pool. After guard stacks getting removed this is crucial.

You might survive against condition damage but just watch out for other ‘zerker because with that base toughness and without stealth, you’re an easy kill.

roll for ini (or withdraw, if there were no stuns) and mug+sleight of hand should be enough to buy him time to stealth and GTFO if he gets surprise bursted.

That’s the thing, he has no stealth. :/

T raw.4658:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

T raw.4658:

Is close to being matched by another class or negated to a point of who cares what will keep the thief in PvP? Serious discussion b/c from the way things are going thieves are really falling fast.

Yes currently with SB 5 and what not we are fast point to point. We can jump a fight and make it a nice +1 (though I must say with the sturdiness of classes now its more like +0.75). Problem is I see a trend where thieves’ mobility isn’t quite the must have. Yes I know right now thieves still have a place, but HoT is going to change A LOT.

I dunno if Dash + SB5 will be enough in light of yet another power creep where thieves’ creep just looks lack luster.

discuss

The Meta-Mindset is the problem. Whoever thought that Thief is only good on decapping and +1 needs to rethink the meta again.

Time and time again, I’ve watched matches where one team protects 2 nodes and protect them really well — no need for rotation or decapping. It only takes 3 members to protect a node and that could be a Necro, Engi, and a Thief (for example) — allowing the Thief to build pure DPS and brawl. However, this current meta only believes that Thief is only good at nothing but hopping around the map — which often times never works.

Thief don’t even need to go around the map looking to +1, they just need to stay in a node doing DPS.

Alas, it will take a while to get rid of this +1 meta-mindset.

Why would you even bother with a thief at that point when there are other classes that do that significantly better than a thief. Then there is the whole focus thief causing him to either:
A. Die making it now a 3v2
B. Run away making it now a 3v2

So really thanks again for helping prove my point!

That depends on the team composition. Necro and Engi has a lot of tool to get the focus off the Thief so that the Thief can focus on DPS.

The concept is hard to grasp because of the current meta mindset. On top of that, Thieves are built to run away in the current meta, but I’m seeing more and more Marauder builds which imply the Thief is gearing for staying power.

Gray.9041:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Thief don’t even need to go around the map looking to +1, they just need to stay in a node doing DPS.

Alas, it will take a while to get rid of this +1 meta-mindset.

that’s nice and all…

but all they’d need to do to win that fight would be to… send… anyone. literally anyone. (possibly excepting another thief…)

If you read my entire post, you’ll realize that’s not what I meant.

T raw.4658:

Is close to being matched by another class or negated to a point of who cares what will keep the thief in PvP? Serious discussion b/c from the way things are going thieves are really falling fast.

Yes currently with SB 5 and what not we are fast point to point. We can jump a fight and make it a nice +1 (though I must say with the sturdiness of classes now its more like +0.75). Problem is I see a trend where thieves’ mobility isn’t quite the must have. Yes I know right now thieves still have a place, but HoT is going to change A LOT.

I dunno if Dash + SB5 will be enough in light of yet another power creep where thieves’ creep just looks lack luster.

discuss

The Meta-Mindset is the problem. Whoever thought that Thief is only good on decapping and +1 needs to rethink the meta again.

Time and time again, I’ve watched matches where one team protects 2 nodes and protect them really well — no need for rotation or decapping. It only takes 3 members to protect a node and that could be a Necro, Engi, and a Thief (for example) — allowing the Thief to build pure DPS and brawl. However, this current meta only believes that Thief is only good at nothing but hopping around the map — which often times never works.

Thief don’t even need to go around the map looking to +1, they just need to stay in a node doing DPS.

Alas, it will take a while to get rid of this +1 meta-mindset.

I get the “plant” part, but why in the world would you want to steal conditions in the first place?

Do the thieves from Ambush and Thieves Guild considered minions?

Warkind.6745:

I swapped out all my armor for Valkyrie pieces since* I wasn’t doing much damage* anyways…

That’s the source of your problem — not doing much damage. So what are you doing? Slowly dying?

Without info on your build nor your playstyle, how do you expect us to help?

mompen.7952:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

mompen.7952:

So I’ve tinkered a bit with this one:

The Exuberance Thief:

(WvW roaming)

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoaVl0MhSnYvTw7Jw/EHwEkPNxpN7Ls8UoTQAyAA-T1CFABVfEAWTLQw7P02DAAgTAwVKBRSJSSKvSTXwCHCAVU/hUAUszC-w

It has high HP (20k with foods) and runes/food that utilize a high HP-pool.

Rest of the setup is pretty standard, but you may notice no shadowarts, whuut?
All my tricks remove conditions and have reduced CD’s and my sigils remove conditions. Sigil of generosity is (?) the most expensive sigil in the game atm, but very worth it. Always funny to transfer burn stacks back to guards/engi’s.

It has good power, very high ferocity meaning your crits hit pretty hard (Hidden Killer for guaranteed crit backstabs) and a high HP-pool. After guard stacks getting removed this is crucial.

You might survive against condition damage but just watch out for other ‘zerker because with that base toughness and without stealth, you’re an easy kill.

So maybe fill in with some soldier trinkets? Or even soldier chest/legs.

Not necessarily. You can compensate your weakness with superb playstyle. You just need to watch out for them.

mompen.7952:

So I’ve tinkered a bit with this one:

The Exuberance Thief:

(WvW roaming)

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoaVl0MhSnYvTw7Jw/EHwEkPNxpN7Ls8UoTQAyAA-T1CFABVfEAWTLQw7P02DAAgTAwVKBRSJSSKvSTXwCHCAVU/hUAUszC-w

It has high HP (20k with foods) and runes/food that utilize a high HP-pool.

Rest of the setup is pretty standard, but you may notice no shadowarts, whuut?
All my tricks remove conditions and have reduced CD’s and my sigils remove conditions. Sigil of generosity is (?) the most expensive sigil in the game atm, but very worth it. Always funny to transfer burn stacks back to guards/engi’s.

It has good power, very high ferocity meaning your crits hit pretty hard (Hidden Killer for guaranteed crit backstabs) and a high HP-pool. After guard stacks getting removed this is crucial.

You might survive against condition damage but just watch out for other ‘zerker because with that base toughness and without stealth, you’re an easy kill.

reddie.5861:

using full valk armor, with berzerker trinkets.. even the berzerker trinkets are not needed so much tbfh. fury up time during a fight is pretty much perma..

using berzerker weapons tho

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAqaVl0MhSnY3TwyJw/EHwElPNOj2YfBL3gqTgAIDA-TVTBABFpEzS1fURTwVKFwSZBK6BaVJIR7PMxDAYhDBACm404IAAwJAIAACA38m3MkCwcdVA-w

using this same build on S/D also and D/P aswell its close to meta or it might even be meta since thiefs dont have that much choices left in WvW..

but nowadays i play mainly P/P in WvW and works perfectly fine with the above build..

Too much wasted damage potential trying to get to 50% crit rate. All you need is 30% and Fury will take you to 50%, then you can allocate more towards damage or survivability….in other words, Rune of The Pack is unnecessary.

Zero Day.2594:

CuteLilKittenHugz.2064:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Let’s see if Karl is the prophesied savior of P/P.

Pretty sure since he effectively murdered p/p he’s the prophesied antichrist of p/p.

There was a prophecy…?

Yes, Flameseeker Prophesies. Not the flameseeker from GW1, but the flameseeker carrying torches and pitchforks.