Guild Wars 2

sticx.5823:

I’m really quite enjoying my thief, but my regular friends I play with are all telling me to play any other class at all. Honestly are thieves in that bad a place atm? Or is it one of those things there the class just has a stigma around it?

I never .. ever.. play SPvP. But I do quite enjoy WvW & PVE content.

Ever consider that the problem is not the Thief?

Perhaps you’re just bad at playing Thief that you die a lot, which will annoy anyone.

And maybe based on your playstyle, your friends are suggesting that the Thief may not be a good match.

I would like to say that CS is fine, but it’s not.
- Adept – I cringe every time since there’s nothing here that improves my build. Randomly picked one.

- Master – All these are crap. Might as well take Practice Tolerance.

- GM – No Quarter…what else? Of all the 9 majors, this is the only one that’s worth picking. Some might take Invigorating Precision, but that does nothing to improve my damage output — it’s crap.

Acrobatic is a weird one. It’s crap when by itself, but if taken with DD, it’s just right — and that’s just wrong. Acrobatic should be able to stand on its own without DD. The 3rd dodge makes Feline Grace and Endless Stamina great and without it, they’re crap. But then again, with Channeled Vigor, Acro is not really needed. A single skill replaces the whole trait line — that’s just wrong.

RedSpectrum.1975:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Yugz.6925:

- 2.600 Power
- 2.700 armor

Not gonna happen.

What about 2.700 Power and 2.600 armor?

Not while having 40% crit, 16k HP and 200% crit damage….you have to sac something.

Getting 2600 power and 2700 armor is easy…but we can’t expect having 16k HP, crit and crit damage.

It’s always been the case that in order to get 2600 power and 40% crit and 200% crit damage is that armor or HP (or both) is sacrificed.

Yugz.6925:

- 2.600 Power
- 2.700 armor

Not gonna happen.

This thread has so much overwhelming evidence which proves that even though the value of Thief is less than 1, it is still OP.

No other profession can pull off the many stunts that a Thief can.

iZakari.1076:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

iZakari.1076:

I’m trying to maintain at least 15k hp with enough zerk gear to give me around 2.3k+ power, 50% crit chance, and 200% crit damage but can’t seem to balance it enough where I don’t sacrifice one completely.

Here you go all Exotic piece: 15k HP, 2.4K Power, 50% crit, 222% Crit dmg.

Enjoy.

Wow thanks! Would you say that these stats are good for PvE/WvW? I’m not planning on doing any crazy content since I spend most of my time in PvP.

IMO, it’s a good starting point. You can then make adjustments along the way by adding your personal touch.

I would personally build something more riskier for more power. You can achieve this by simply swapping the Rune of Wurm with Rune of Brawler.

13k HP, 2.6k Power, 50% crit, 208% crit damage

Serious Thought.5394:

So you’d keep Lead Attacks over an 8% damage increase in all weapon sets that Thief owns and a new Minor stating killing a foe restores 3 initiative?

In the meantime, yes, keep LA as is.

It’s not that I don’t want what you’re suggesting, rather it’s not something we need right now.

Cynz.9437:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

theyll just change it to “gain boons.”

already see next patch something like: fixed description of the spell “consume plasma” to match the effect… kek

It would be a Lyssa fix, convert up to 5 conditions to boons.

Serious Thought.5394:

I get what you are saying, but wouldn’t it make sense to be swapped with something more focused on initiation then over something that discourages skill use? I don’t know, like entering a fight procs a mini Assassin’s signet- your next 3 attacks do 15% more?

To be honest, we already have a lot of damage boost and what we really need is a reliable survival trait or some utility.

Lead Attack can even function like CiS but instead of blind on stealth LA passively applies blind to your next attack whenever your initiative is full.

Each % applies a vuln theoretically? Great, why doesn’t it affect condi?

When it comes to damage boost, it is the same as vulnerability.

And of course vulnerability is still better when it comes to condition damage boost and party boost in addition to damage boost.

And why would I willingly remove Vuln from them?

You’re looking at it half-empty and I’m looking at it half-full.

I don’t see it as removing, rather adding.

If I have 4 init left, I’ll be glad to add 1% damage upon using Heartseeker.
Or add 4% to my Auto-attack.

Like how no one argued preparedness, anet do it. Preparedness baseline.

I have no problem with this. 12 is a strange number to begin with.

iZakari.1076:

I’m trying to maintain at least 15k hp with enough zerk gear to give me around 2.3k+ power, 50% crit chance, and 200% crit damage but can’t seem to balance it enough where I don’t sacrifice one completely.

Here you go all Exotic piece: 15k HP, 2.4K Power, 50% crit, 222% Crit dmg.

Enjoy.

Serious Thought.5394:

Yes but I said inversely. Think about it like old Mantras. You were punished for using Mantra’s because you gained damage for accumulating them and lost damage for using them.

Lead Attack is exactly functioning as it is designed…it gives your initial attack a big boost while the rest of your attack will gradually receive less buff.

If you have full initiative and in stealth, your backstab will receive +15% damage boost.

Your first Vault or Unload will still receive +10% damage boost.

Even at +1% boost it’s still good because that’s the same bonus with a stack vulnerability.

Likewise, we accumulate damage for NOT spending initiative (our very class mechanic over just some silly skill) and lose it for playing the game logically i.e. spending initiative. That’s how we lose damage. This trait singularly discourages using your 2-5 abilities because you lose damage.

I don’t agree with the trait discouraging the use of skill 2-5, because just as I’ve said, even a 1% boost is still a good boost. Saying that it’s not is the same as saying that 1 stack of vulnerability isn’t good either.

Serious Thought.5394:

Also, wtf is Lead Attacks? It encourages the player to NOT spend initiative and punishes you for doing so in an inverse manner. Hey Mr Mesmer, I know you need your spells to be effective, but we’ll start deducting damage for doing so. Just stick to your autos. No really, we will take your damage away.

This is not true. Lead Attack adds damage between 1% and 15% — it doesn’t take away.

sorrychief.2563:

why are there no ‘warrior op’ threads when evis hits harder and scales better than backstab?

I think we might need a guardian OP thread since Mighty Blow is just an aoe backstab!

That’s simple; there’s no evidence that can prove that Warrior or Guardian are OP.

Patch after patch, they both get buffs implying that they are weak and useless that they need all the buffs they have received.

The Thief, on the other hand, has been proven time and time again that it is OP, thus the evidence of nerfs to the profession patch after patch.

Surely, you can create a thread calling Warrior or Guardian OP, but no one will believe you. In contrast, it is universally believed that Thief is OP.

bettadenu.5483:

^That’s something different entirely though, it was a missing feature.

However Improvisation should recharge utilities equipped not recharge something out of a pool that isn’t equipped.

I’m talking about the response time.

When it comes to fixing a nerf, they are quick.
When it comes to fixing a buff, they are sluggish.

arenta.2953:

Eisenwald.8562:

Kageseigi.2150:

arenta.2953:

if you mean in sPvP. then any backstab hit would never go above 6k. unless u missing pieces of your armor.

I beg to disagree. In one match, my Thief “one-shotted” another Thief with a 17.888k Backstab. She also downed a Warrior with a 13.347k Backstab at the end of the match. Both were fully armored…

EDIT: It happened on September 1st, 2015.

You got my attention with that nearly 18k backstab…what the kitten kind of build is that you’re running? Did the enemy have max stacks of vuln and did you have max might stacks or something? I just don’t even see how this is possible but you’ve got screenshots to prove it.

was the person wearing all their armor pieces?

Which part of “Both were fully armored” didn’t you understand?

Seriously, deny it all you want. The screenshot proves that Thief is OP…and that’s not even Staff #5.

They are quick to fix the bug when it comes to nerfing Improvisation by adding Physical types, yet when it comes to fixing bugs to buffs like adding 10% to Withdraw and including all the boon in this skill — they’re not as reliable.

sorrychief.2563:

you heard it here folks. 3k crits op.

how can any class compete with that?

From a dodge, heck yeah!

What profession can you find that can crit for 3k from their dodge? Even Warrior’s Reckless dodge is nothing compare to this.

Not to mention, Bound buffs your next Physical attack by 10% more damage plus 10% Staff damage because using your Bound depletes endurance and enables Staff Master. Also Bound puts you within the 360 range which enables Havoc Mastery for another 7% damage — this is why Vault hits like a truck.

Then if you add stacks of might and vulnerability to the equation…so OP.

Potato.7318:

Nike mentioned that the thief’s blind and stealth role can now be accomplished by other professions and the dps increase in the other professions no longer provides the thief a secure spot in the dungeon meta.

How do you guys feel about this comment?

Well, he’s wrong. The Thief’s DPS is not based on it’s base damage rather it’s based on their damage frequency. Bound by itself is enough to earn a spot in a dungeon. Of course, other players will continue to alienate Thieves in dungeons without a valid reason, just because it’s a Thief.

Just a disclaimer, I’m speaking of dungeon runs where the group does what it’s meant to do rather than skipping and speed running.

glaphen.5230:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

glaphen.5230:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

arenta.2953:

in addition to my above post

if theif was OP….why are other classes used as well in the league?

if theif was as OP as you claim. why doesn’t EVERYONE use it?

There is such thing as play style and player choice — and not EVERYONE can play Thief nor EVERYONE wants to play a profession just because it’s OP.

There are many players who choose to play inferior professions so that they can go to the forums and complain about the Thief’s OPness — which is true.

theif is strong at its given role yes. but its extremely squishy and punishing of mistakes.

Have you ever seen a Thief pet? A Druid can literally put a leash on a Thief and heal them while the Thief wreck havoc by spamming AoE damage using Vault and Bound like a rabid wombat.

its stealth and evasion are all the defense it has.

Um, there’s also swiftness and shadowstep to get out of range and reset. You can’t really kill something you can’t deal damage to.

and it lacks effective AoE skills. or any skills at all to make it able to conduct long duration fights.

lol, seriously? You have not played Thief — this is the proof. I’ve been AoE killing using Vault and Bound. Where have you been?

boss fights, meta events, zergs, or even group combat.
all of these a theif is horrible for.

Speak for yourself. If you’ve seen 10 DD Vaulting and Bounding in a zerg fight, you wouldn’t have that misinformed opinion.

it even lacks a true long range weapon. beign stuck at 900 range.

What is “true” long range weapon? 1200 range? If that is so then Ranger doesn’t have a true long range weapon because they can hit with a Longbow from 1500 range.

what a thief is good at, is 1 on 1, hit and run, and sneaking past mobs in dungeons.

That’s so pre-HoT mentality. Get in with the time man.

all classes have situations they are best at. these are the theives

You are utterly misinformed.

if u try to fight a theif in 1 on 1 and you aren’t a bunker, or AoE build. or bringing one of the skills i posted above.

then you deserve to die. as your literally playing to the theives strength.

Even if you are a bunker, Thief will rip you apart because Thief is OP. They can apply so much pressure because they can hit for 15k-21k within a 3s span. And Thieves even have unblockable skills so blocking will not stop them either.

what is the theif best at killing. berserker set glass cannon players who place no value in defense, durability, or survivability.

You’re so wrong and so outdated.

Vault and dodge spam works against bads, any decent player will watch for the obvious Vault animation and dodge it.

I can Vault 3x and Bound 3x, you can only dodge twice. I only need to hit you 3 times with either and you will take 15k-21k damage…do the math.

Dodge spam is also kittened because it does less than basic attacks and should only be used to dodge when needed.

Denying you damage due to evades while I deal AoE damage that takes 1/3 of your health per hit (if not half) is not kittened.

I play bunker Thief and fear a dagger Thief in a +1 100x more than a Vault spammer because Backstab can’t be stopped, dodge the Vaults and he is doing less than any other damage build on any other class.

Backstab is slow and only hits for 4k the most every 4s. I can Bound 3 times, which looks like Vault which I can use to bait, and if you dodge it, I’ve already won since I will Vault on top of you 3 times in a span of 3s dealing massive damage.

Yes if 2 dodges is your only defense and the enemy doesn’t know how to move you do what 12k damage if it all crits, then you have nothing for 5 seconds at least.

If 12k damage didn’t finish you, I still have 3 utilities and an Elite skill that I haven’t used. I’m sure that after dealing 12k to you and if I followed it with Impact Strike, you’re done.

Backstab is also a guaranteed hit

Maybe so, but you can only BS every 4s at least. Not a good source of damage.

and also has Bound and easy stealth.

While you’re in stealth, you’re just buying me time to gain more initiative for more Vaulting.

It looks like Bound to bads but the animation has completely obvious differences.

So you’re saying that because it’s Bound and not Vault that you will not dodge it?

My Bound can crit for 3k are you sure that you’re not dodging it?

Hitsuke.5304:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I accept the fact that Thief is horrible in 1v1 due to a lot of weaknesses, thus I will not build to win a 1v1 rather I would build a DPS and find myself a Druid partner and win a 2v2 instead. Many players are still in denial and still trying to make 1v1 work, thus the source of a lot of complaints.

To be honest, I’ve been making Staff work pretty kitten well in WvW. I’ve won more 1v1s than lost, against Scrappers, Druids, Zerkers, Tempests and their elite-less brethren. I’ve had a few stalemates here and there and had a few Chronos bail from fights. The only classes I’ve had any real trouble with are D/P Thieves, Reapers, Dragon Hunters & Revs… They give a really stiff challenge to a DD Staff wielder. You’d be surprised how stupid casters can be when they’re hitting a long cast skill while you vault them a couple of times and take 15k HP off them!

I’ll post my build when I get a chance.

Any of them condition based? If so, how do you handle conditions?

Winning against other profession doesn’t negate the fact that Thief is horrible at 1v1. From what you’ve posted, you less than 50% chance of winning — that’s horrible.

Smoke Cloud (see Smokescale) — not “field”. No Stealth.

Eisenwald.8562:

@ Sir Vincent III – I like the idea of a smoke field, but I’m not sure it promotes the type of play style intended for the daredevil. I would rather them buff the staff in some other fashion that would enhance our non-stealth combat, preferably in some kind of defensive manner.

I’m talking about Smoke Cloud not Smoke Field. If you’ve fought a Smokescale, you’ll know what I’m talking about.

glaphen.5230:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

arenta.2953:

in addition to my above post

if theif was OP….why are other classes used as well in the league?

if theif was as OP as you claim. why doesn’t EVERYONE use it?

There is such thing as play style and player choice — and not EVERYONE can play Thief nor EVERYONE wants to play a profession just because it’s OP.

There are many players who choose to play inferior professions so that they can go to the forums and complain about the Thief’s OPness — which is true.

theif is strong at its given role yes. but its extremely squishy and punishing of mistakes.

Have you ever seen a Thief pet? A Druid can literally put a leash on a Thief and heal them while the Thief wreck havoc by spamming AoE damage using Vault and Bound like a rabid wombat.

its stealth and evasion are all the defense it has.

Um, there’s also swiftness and shadowstep to get out of range and reset. You can’t really kill something you can’t deal damage to.

and it lacks effective AoE skills. or any skills at all to make it able to conduct long duration fights.

lol, seriously? You have not played Thief — this is the proof. I’ve been AoE killing using Vault and Bound. Where have you been?

boss fights, meta events, zergs, or even group combat.
all of these a theif is horrible for.

Speak for yourself. If you’ve seen 10 DD Vaulting and Bounding in a zerg fight, you wouldn’t have that misinformed opinion.

it even lacks a true long range weapon. beign stuck at 900 range.

What is “true” long range weapon? 1200 range? If that is so then Ranger doesn’t have a true long range weapon because they can hit with a Longbow from 1500 range.

what a thief is good at, is 1 on 1, hit and run, and sneaking past mobs in dungeons.

That’s so pre-HoT mentality. Get in with the time man.

all classes have situations they are best at. these are the theives

You are utterly misinformed.

if u try to fight a theif in 1 on 1 and you aren’t a bunker, or AoE build. or bringing one of the skills i posted above.

then you deserve to die. as your literally playing to the theives strength.

Even if you are a bunker, Thief will rip you apart because Thief is OP. They can apply so much pressure because they can hit for 15k-21k within a 3s span. And Thieves even have unblockable skills so blocking will not stop them either.

what is the theif best at killing. berserker set glass cannon players who place no value in defense, durability, or survivability.

You’re so wrong and so outdated.

Vault and dodge spam works against bads, any decent player will watch for the obvious Vault animation and dodge it.

I can Vault 3x and Bound 3x, you can only dodge twice. I only need to hit you 3 times with either and you will take 15k-21k damage…do the math.

Dodge spam is also kittened because it does less than basic attacks and should only be used to dodge when needed.

Denying you damage due to evades while I deal AoE damage that takes 1/3 of your health per hit (if not half) is not kittened.

I play bunker Thief and fear a dagger Thief in a +1 100x more than a Vault spammer because Backstab can’t be stopped, dodge the Vaults and he is doing less than any other damage build on any other class.

Backstab is slow and only hits for 4k the most every 4s. I can Bound 3 times, which looks like Vault which I can use to bait, and if you dodge it, I’ve already won since I will Vault on top of you 3 times in a span of 3s dealing massive damage.

arenta.2953:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

arenta.2953:

in addition to my above post

if theif was OP….why are other classes used as well in the league?

if theif was as OP as you claim. why doesn’t EVERYONE use it?

There is such thing as play style and player choice — and not EVERYONE can play Thief nor EVERYONE wants to play a profession just because it’s OP.

There are many players who choose to play inferior professions so that they can go to the forums and complain about the Thief’s OPness — which is true.

theif is strong at its given role yes. but its extremely squishy and punishing of mistakes.

Have you ever seen a Thief pet? A Druid can literally put a leash on a Thief and heal them while the Thief wreck havoc by spamming AoE damage using Vault and Bound like a rabid wombat.

its stealth and evasion are all the defense it has.

Um, there’s also swiftness and shadowstep to get out of range and reset. You can’t really kill something you can’t deal damage to.

and it lacks effective AoE skills. or any skills at all to make it able to conduct long duration fights.

lol, seriously? You have not played Thief — this is the proof. I’ve been AoE killing using Vault and Bound. Where have you been?

boss fights, meta events, zergs, or even group combat.
all of these a theif is horrible for.

Speak for yourself. If you’ve seen 10 DD Vaulting and Bounding in a zerg fight, you wouldn’t have that misinformed opinion.

it even lacks a true long range weapon. beign stuck at 900 range.

What is “true” long range weapon? 1200 range? If that is so then Ranger doesn’t have a true long range weapon because they can hit with a Longbow from 1500 range.

what a thief is good at, is 1 on 1, hit and run, and sneaking past mobs in dungeons.

That’s so pre-HoT mentality. Get in with the time man.

all classes have situations they are best at. these are the theives

You are utterly misinformed.

if u try to fight a theif in 1 on 1 and you aren’t a bunker, or AoE build. or bringing one of the skills i posted above.

then you deserve to die. as your literally playing to the theives strength.

Even if you are a bunker, Thief will rip you apart because Thief is OP. They can apply so much pressure because they can hit for 15k-21k within a 3s span. And Thieves even have unblockable skills so blocking will not stop them either.

what is the theif best at killing. berserker set glass cannon players who place no value in defense, durability, or survivability.

You’re so wrong and so outdated.

a theif with druid pet is a teamwork combo. so thats different

Correction, the Thief IS the pet.

vault and bound ….wheres the stealth?

What are you talking about? You said Thief is horrible in group combat…why ask about stealth?

Have you gotten lost in the conversation?

and suuuure…i’m sure u see so many vaulting and bounding DDs…..

When’s the last time you went with a zerg in a full server? You might have not seen it because you’re in a low pop server.

long range is 1200.

That’s mid-range. Close range is 600. Short range is 900. Mid range is 1200. Long range is 1500 from Ranger Longbow.

Your data is outdated.

you seem to be complaining about daredevil. not theif.

Daredevil is not a profession.

if your complaint is to theif. say so.

I have done that. Don’t change the subject.

In any given build at least 2/3 is Thief and 1/3 Daredevil. Majority wins, thus Thief is Thief.

but if it involves daredevil skills. say daredevil as theres a difference. the daredevil trait line doesn’t involve stealth.

No, you’re wrong. Thief is Thief. If I do that, then I should be talking about Shadow Arts as if it’s not from a Thief. That’s just silly — and you’re being silly.

so which are u complaining about.

A Vaulting and Bounding Thief and his Druid master.

also. keep crying. 3 years theif has been here. its fair. u just need to learn to play.

Yes, 3 years and it’s still OP and it became a reality-tearing-broken when they released Daredevil. The Thief is now literally destroying the current meta. A Thief and a Druid can 2v5 on a node and can kill all 5 players at the same time.

No crying here, these are tears of anger.

anyway. seeing as how you’ve resorted to insults. this thread is essentially dead.

Saying that you are misinformed is not an insult. It’s the same level as you telling me to learn to play. In the end, Thief is still OP.

added to that the 3 years that theif has been part of the game and not killed off other classes(proving its fair since u see classes other than theif in LEague play)

The only fact is that in the last 3 years that Thief is getting nerfed means that it’s been OP ever since from the very beginning and the nerfing is still not enough due to the new skill the profession have acquired after HoT.

It will take another 3 year before ArenaNet can nerf Thief enough to make it not OP. The Daredevil just threw the last 3 years of nerfs out the window.

so…since its dead. i’m signing out. cya~ wouldn’t want to be ya…

It’s only dead because it was never alive in the first place.

i’ll leave this with you though
http://i.imgur.com/67R34zb.gif

hahaha, so appropriate — it looks like you, good job.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Hitsuke.5304:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Hitsuke.5304:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Nocta.5274:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I have one question:

What did you do to counter conditions BEFORE Escapist Absolution?

I think you’re relying on EA too much.

We used Shadow Arts.

Then if what the OP said is to be believed that DD has a flaw that can be exploited, then why choose a trait line with such flaw and not use SA?

If the OP is using staff (which I’m assuming he is) then it doesn’t take a theoretical physicist to work out why SA is useless.

That’s a trade-off, not a flaw. And if condition damage really is a problem, then perhaps Staff and DD are not good choices for the meta. It’s a high condition damage meta and you choose a build that has little or no way to deal with condition — and nobody see anything wrong with that?

I wouldn’t call it a trade off personally. A trade off is when you chose more damage over condi cleanse, dropping SA is a no brainer as Staff has zero stealth options. So it’s more or less a necessity, and all you are gaining is a different playstyle (over D/D or D/P).

But you’re not restricted to Staff, you can always swap to a weapon set with stealth. Or trait Hidden Thief so you gain stealth on Steal, which is also on a low CD if also spec with SoH (Trick).

Sure, if we pretend that shortbow isn’t absolutely required for a thief be of any use in the meta, we can use another weaponset – of course when we return to the real world, you’re still stuck with Shortbow and 1 other weaponset.

Does the meta also require Staff?

Let’s be honest, I’m also pretending that Staff is viable in the current meta.

If we return to the real world, you’re stuck with SB and D/P.

And turning Steal into your only option for condition cleansing feels outright silly – now your only access to SE is gated behind steal (20s CD) so now you have to save steal for when you get hit by condi’s or risk not having any cleanses at all? That’s not what anyone would call “reasonable options”

An option being “reasonable” is subjective and if it’s not reasonable to you, that’s fine because it doesn’t fit your playstyle, so you’ll have to find other options. In a condition heavy meta, I doubt you’ll have to wait long enough to get conditions on you.

The bottom line is, the perceived flaw or weakness is cause by a weak build, not by a single trait.

I do agree to an extent that complaints about condi-cleanse are a bit silly when you can trait trickster and run withdraw. Cleansing two conditions every 14 seconds is easy using withdraw combined with EA.

Exactly.

Yeah no, 2 conditions every 16 seconds (because that’s what the traited CD of Scorp wire is) is kind of terrible for taking use a utility, your heal, and a trait that competes with BT (BT enhances the DrD line with vigor AND makes SoH worth due to Daze-through-stun, it’s a big trait).

It’s not Scorp Wire, it’s Withdraw, hence the 14s CD. If you evade an attack with Withdraw, you trigger EA also, removing 2 conditions.

BT is no doubt a good option, however the OP post a situation where he has no independent condition removal — Trickster is a way to give a Thief exactly that.

The only time a trade off comes into the equation is when you have to choose between Trickster & Bountiful thieft… Choosing boon strips and the DD synergising vigor you get from it or going with Trickster/withdraw for low CD condi cleanse.

If you choose to drop SA, the other choice is either DA or CS, which means you’re trading survivability for damage. If you drop SA for Acro, then you should spec for anti-condition like Pain Response. There’s really no room to complain since there are so many options.

Better hope all those conditions hit you before PR triggers, or else you’re left with 0 condi cleanse… it’s almost as if PR is pretty terribly designed as a condi counter…

It’s more like a failsafe than a condition counter, thus the 75% health threshold. Also only if they choose Acro and having trouble with conditions. The bottom line is, there’s not room for complaint if you choose to not spec against conditions.

I accept the fact that Thief is horrible in 1v1 due to a lot of weaknesses, thus I will not build to win a 1v1 rather I would build a DPS and find myself a Druid partner and win a 2v2 instead. Many players are still in denial and still trying to make 1v1 work, thus the source of a lot of complaints.

IMO, EA should be merged with Driven Fortitude.

arenta.2953:

in addition to my above post

if theif was OP….why are other classes used as well in the league?

if theif was as OP as you claim. why doesn’t EVERYONE use it?

There is such thing as play style and player choice — and not EVERYONE can play Thief nor EVERYONE wants to play a profession just because it’s OP.

There are many players who choose to play inferior professions so that they can go to the forums and complain about the Thief’s OPness — which is true.

theif is strong at its given role yes. but its extremely squishy and punishing of mistakes.

Have you ever seen a Thief pet? A Druid can literally put a leash on a Thief and heal them while the Thief wreck havoc by spamming AoE damage using Vault and Bound like a rabid wombat.

its stealth and evasion are all the defense it has.

Um, there’s also swiftness and shadowstep to get out of range and reset. You can’t really kill something you can’t deal damage to.

and it lacks effective AoE skills. or any skills at all to make it able to conduct long duration fights.

lol, seriously? You have not played Thief — this is the proof. I’ve been AoE killing using Vault and Bound. Where have you been?

boss fights, meta events, zergs, or even group combat.
all of these a theif is horrible for.

Speak for yourself. If you’ve seen 10 DD Vaulting and Bounding in a zerg fight, you wouldn’t have that misinformed opinion.

it even lacks a true long range weapon. beign stuck at 900 range.

What is “true” long range weapon? 1200 range? If that is so then Ranger doesn’t have a true long range weapon because they can hit with a Longbow from 1500 range.

what a thief is good at, is 1 on 1, hit and run, and sneaking past mobs in dungeons.

That’s so pre-HoT mentality. Get in with the time man.

all classes have situations they are best at. these are the theives

You are utterly misinformed.

if u try to fight a theif in 1 on 1 and you aren’t a bunker, or AoE build. or bringing one of the skills i posted above.

then you deserve to die. as your literally playing to the theives strength.

Even if you are a bunker, Thief will rip you apart because Thief is OP. They can apply so much pressure because they can hit for 15k-21k within a 3s span. And Thieves even have unblockable skills so blocking will not stop them either.

what is the theif best at killing. berserker set glass cannon players who place no value in defense, durability, or survivability.

You’re so wrong and so outdated.

Hitsuke.5304:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Hitsuke.5304:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Nocta.5274:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I have one question:

What did you do to counter conditions BEFORE Escapist Absolution?

I think you’re relying on EA too much.

We used Shadow Arts.

Then if what the OP said is to be believed that DD has a flaw that can be exploited, then why choose a trait line with such flaw and not use SA?

If the OP is using staff (which I’m assuming he is) then it doesn’t take a theoretical physicist to work out why SA is useless.

That’s a trade-off, not a flaw. And if condition damage really is a problem, then perhaps Staff and DD are not good choices for the meta. It’s a high condition damage meta and you choose a build that has little or no way to deal with condition — and nobody see anything wrong with that?

I wouldn’t call it a trade off personally. A trade off is when you chose more damage over condi cleanse, dropping SA is a no brainer as Staff has zero stealth options. So it’s more or less a necessity, and all you are gaining is a different playstyle (over D/D or D/P).

But you’re not restricted to Staff, you can always swap to a weapon set with stealth. Or trait Hidden Thief so you gain stealth on Steal, which is also on a low CD if also spec with SoH (Trick).

The bottom line is, the perceived flaw or weakness is cause by a weak build, not by a single trait.

I do agree to an extent that complaints about condi-cleanse are a bit silly when you can trait trickster and run withdraw. Cleansing two conditions every 14 seconds is easy using withdraw combined with EA.

Exactly.

The only time a trade off comes into the equation is when you have to choose between Trickster & Bountiful thieft… Choosing boon strips and the DD synergising vigor you get from it or going with Trickster/withdraw for low CD condi cleanse.

If you choose to drop SA, the other choice is either DA or CS, which means you’re trading survivability for damage. If you drop SA for Acro, then you should spec for anti-condition like Pain Response. There’s really no room to complain since there are so many options.

If ANet actually bothered their kitten s and added that all elusive 10% to Withdraw it would be a no brainer.

Currently I bring Channeled Vigor since it gives the most heal for a short CD, not to mention it refills endurance too. So it seems that because of CV that the missing 10% will simply fade into the background, which is a shame.

Eisenwald.8562:

Vincent I understand the role playing aspect of shadow stepping that you’re trying to enlighten us with and I appreciate that. However, I don’t think that is the important thing to understand. What needs to be determined is whether or not having effects proc from shadow stepping through them is good gameplay mechanics and design.

From my perspective I feel that these types of mobility skills should be a good source for countering foes who sit in the middle or behind their rings such as test of faith. Not the other way around.

The thing is, I don’t see the problem with their decision making it that way because you can get in/out of the barrier using dodge or other evade skills.

If I’m on the receiving end, I don’t want Thieves shadowstepping into my barrier making it useless — if that happens, then that’s a real problem.

IMO, the problem with Test of Faith, and all of the DH’s traps, is that it lasts way too long. All the DH’s traps should only last 3s-4s like all other pulsing traps.

Eisenwald.8562:

Scorpion wire still bugs like the old magnet on engi used to, so that’s out.

Um, no. You don’t have to hit with Scorp Wire. It’s simply a low CD condition removal. Same with Bandit’s defense, it’s a low CD stun break. Sure you can pull with ScorpWire and block and KD with BD, but those are secondaries.

This leaves you with Roll For Initiative and Withdraw (which still is missing 10% healing power). Roll For Initiative has a long cooldown for just removing one condition. Withdraw with tricks trait seems to be the only skill possible to use for a independent condition clear. However this means you won’t be able to ever use your elite specialization heal which is lame if you ask me, especially with how necessary extra dodges are on a build without stealth. Even still, this means you have 1 single reliable condition clear…that’s it…

With both Withdraw and Scorp Wire, you have 2 low CD condition removals. This in addition to EA, I think you have plenty given how low the CDs are.

arenta.2953:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

arenta.2953:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Mefiq.7039:

Thief is op, it hits 3k/3k/3k autoattack chain with insane dmg + evade on 3rd skill, kittenton of blocks and sustain, HE CAN EVEN EQUIP STAFF and knock/block/heal!
Thats how op thief is! aaa not, i was talking about Revs!!~!$@!$!

Ye this

they need to be nerfed immediately so they have to actually try to get wins.

When they stealth, I can’t tell if they’re going to attack me or run away, and there are absolutely no options for counterplay.

I refuse to autoattack to fish for them, I am not a barbarian.

all they do is get low, port away, reset fight ad nauseum

Nerf staff too I hate when thieves can give up stealth for 6k crits

easy way to counter them
since u apparently have never played one

use AoEs

Thieves will either go in stealth or dodge inside your AoE. For each evade, it triggers their “on evade” traits. Thieves have done this inside SR while getting AoE’d.

Not a good solution. Apparently, you have not played a Thief.

this ranged from necro staff marks and wells

Again, “on evade” remember?

to warrior GS

Only bad Warriors uses GS and you shouldn’t encourage others to be bad Warriors.

or even normal sword 1.

Again, “on evade” traits. Not a good idea.

if u see the weapon’s auto attack chain going. then u hitting.

Not if they’re dodging.

or use ranger’s pet “sic em”

Not if they’re dodging.

or reveneant’s stealth reveal

Ugh, not if they’re dodging.

or engineers stealth reveal.

Not. If.They.Are.Dodging.

those 3 are all hard counters to thief.

That’s just an illusion. There is no “hard counter” to Thieves. If you Revealed them, they will dodge and evade, then go back in stealth.

but we can’t give all classes stealth counters, as otherwise stealth is useless

Stealth is not useless. If the Thief can force a Ranger to bring a dead skill Sic ’Em, the Thief have already won.

so yes, there are counterplays

There’s no such thing. There is no way to beat a Thief. They have so much utility, evade, block, and invulnerability that there is nothing you can do to beat them.

and traps work well against them

You cannot trap a Thief, they will shadowstep out of it or dodge around in it to trigger “on evade” traits.

and yes. u need to be a barbarian. CAUSE IT WORKS.

No it doesn’t. Barbaric approach never work. You need to be a 5-start General who’s really good at forming strategies and tactical maneuvers.

thief has lowest hp pool in game(with ele)

That’s nothing compare to their effective health — keyword “effective”.

and 2nd lowest armor

Their armor is part of the illusion because when they go in stealth, they receive 25% damage reduction plus the pulsing heal which greatly increase their effective health while in stealth. This is one of the reasons why your “solutions” will never work.

Everyone agree that Thief is OP and I just laid out some of the reasons why.

EDIT: typos

lol they don’t have unlimited dodge

also. dodge doesnt work vs all skills

example, Ranger’s skill “Sic Em” removes all stealth WITHIN 2K
dodge don’t evade it.

and Rev’s “gaze of darkness” pulls all stealthed enemies out of stealth, and blinds them.

again, dodge wont evade it.

also
Guardian’s Light’s jugement trap

this can be dodged yes. but it LASTS 8 SECOUNDS. aka as soon as your dodge ends YOU LOSE STEALTH unless u can jump OUT of the trap’s range before the evade ends.
with a attack radius longer than the trap radius. this means evade wotn work well.

for engineer
analyze.
and detection pulse.

both cant be dodged

there is also the engineer trait LOCK ON.
combine this with a AoE like grenades, or flamethrower. and NO EVADE will be able to outlast this. this will basically cancel stealth perminently unless the theif can get out of range of the engineer.

and guess what. by your logic. evade can counter anything. but u don’t have unlimited evades. they have cooldowns. and a period between evades.

so try again.

You do realize that dodging happens during the Revealed right? It’s not dodging the skill that Reveals the Thief, rather dodging every other skill after getting Revealed.

Even though you have the skill to Revealed them, they will simply dodge around until they can stealth again — and they can stealth more than you can reveal that’s why those reveal skills are useless and not a hard counter.

Do you understand now why Thief needs to be nerfed?

It seems to me that you have not played a Thief.

Fistandanthilus.6824:

Gwalchgwn.1659:

This however does raise the question: Why is blink and other teleports (non-shadowsteps) getting hurt by rings or barriers?

That’s the point!!

I did not play Gw1, which is another game with different mechanics.

I play Gw2, and I consider to be game-breaking the actual mechanic that triggers the effect of rings and barriers when shadowstepping in or out of them.

As I said in my previous post: I understand shadowstep has to check path in order to allow the skill to happen, but I also understand that no matter what there is on the path, it should not affect or take effect over us thieves when we shadowstep.

You need to picture shadowstep as if the Thief is the Flash. From our perspective, he teleported from point A to point B, but in reality, he’s simply moving too fast for us to see him walked to point B. Then you’ll understand why Thieves get burn when shadowstepping out of ring of fire.

Hitsuke.5304:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Nocta.5274:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I have one question:

What did you do to counter conditions BEFORE Escapist Absolution?

I think you’re relying on EA too much.

We used Shadow Arts.

Then if what the OP said is to be believed that DD has a flaw that can be exploited, then why choose a trait line with such flaw and not use SA?

If the OP is using staff (which I’m assuming he is) then it doesn’t take a theoretical physicist to work out why SA is useless.

That’s a trade-off, not a flaw. And if condition damage really is a problem, then perhaps Staff and DD are not good choices for the meta. It’s a high condition damage meta and you choose a build that has little or no way to deal with condition — and nobody see anything wrong with that?

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Nocta.5274:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I have one question:

What did you do to counter conditions BEFORE Escapist Absolution?

I think you’re relying on EA too much.

We used Shadow Arts.

Then if what the OP said is to be believed that DD has a flaw that can be exploited, then why choose a trait line with such flaw and not use SA?

There’s a dozen reasonable answers to this, and you know them all Vincent.

I swear, I’ll never understand how in some posts you come across as level headed and reasonable, and in others you’re a purposefully obtuse syntax stickler.

Yes I know. I’m simply trying to understand the notion of “flaw” rather than “trade off” since I don’t see it as a flaw.

If EA should ever change, it needs to be baseline and they need to give us a better trait in its place — like more Physical (skill) damage, so the choice is either more Staff damage or more Physical damage and not damage vs survival, which is a stupid choice because we need both.

As per the OP’s “flaw” problem, I personally trait for Trickster and use Scorp Wire as an independent condition removal. Yes, I know that EA would be better if it is “on dodge” instead, but the Dev already gave a “no” answer to that. To them, it’s already too strong.

Nocta.5274:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I have one question:

What did you do to counter conditions BEFORE Escapist Absolution?

I think you’re relying on EA too much.

We used Shadow Arts.

Then if what the OP said is to be believed that DD has a flaw that can be exploited, then why choose a trait line with such flaw and not use SA?

Terimac.5871:

Btw what about staff #4 guys? Do you think adding a 2 sec smokefield would be too op or a nice buff?

I want the Smokescale’s Smoke Cloud skill as our Staff #4. I’d definitely use the skill more often if this is the case.

I have one question:

What did you do to counter conditions BEFORE Escapist Absolution?

I think you’re relying on EA too much.

arenta.2953:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Mefiq.7039:

Thief is op, it hits 3k/3k/3k autoattack chain with insane dmg + evade on 3rd skill, kittenton of blocks and sustain, HE CAN EVEN EQUIP STAFF and knock/block/heal!
Thats how op thief is! aaa not, i was talking about Revs!!~!$@!$!

Ye this

they need to be nerfed immediately so they have to actually try to get wins.

When they stealth, I can’t tell if they’re going to attack me or run away, and there are absolutely no options for counterplay.

I refuse to autoattack to fish for them, I am not a barbarian.

all they do is get low, port away, reset fight ad nauseum

Nerf staff too I hate when thieves can give up stealth for 6k crits

easy way to counter them
since u apparently have never played one

use AoEs

Thieves will either go in stealth or dodge inside your AoE. For each evade, it triggers their “on evade” traits. Thieves have done this inside SR while getting AoE’d.

Not a good solution. Apparently, you have not played a Thief.

this ranged from necro staff marks and wells

Again, “on evade” remember?

to warrior GS

Only bad Warriors uses GS and you shouldn’t encourage others to be bad Warriors.

or even normal sword 1.

Again, “on evade” traits. Not a good idea.

if u see the weapon’s auto attack chain going. then u hitting.

Not if they’re dodging.

or use ranger’s pet “sic em”

Not if they’re dodging.

or reveneant’s stealth reveal

Ugh, not if they’re dodging.

or engineers stealth reveal.

Not. If.They.Are.Dodging.

those 3 are all hard counters to thief.

That’s just an illusion. There is no “hard counter” to Thieves. If you Revealed them, they will dodge and evade, then go back in stealth.

but we can’t give all classes stealth counters, as otherwise stealth is useless

Stealth is not useless. If the Thief can force a Ranger to bring a dead skill Sic ’Em, the Thief have already won.

so yes, there are counterplays

There’s no such thing. There is no way to beat a Thief. They have so much utility, evade, block, and invulnerability that there is nothing you can do to beat them.

and traps work well against them

You cannot trap a Thief, they will shadowstep out of it or dodge around in it to trigger “on evade” traits.

and yes. u need to be a barbarian. CAUSE IT WORKS.

No it doesn’t. Barbaric approach never work. You need to be a 5-start General who’s really good at forming strategies and tactical maneuvers.

thief has lowest hp pool in game(with ele)

That’s nothing compare to their effective health — keyword “effective”.

and 2nd lowest armor

Their armor is part of the illusion because when they go in stealth, they receive 25% damage reduction plus the pulsing heal which greatly increase their effective health while in stealth. This is one of the reasons why your “solutions” will never work.

Everyone agree that Thief is OP and I just laid out some of the reasons why.

EDIT: typos

In GW2, shadowstep and teleport are functionally and mechanically one and the same. There are instances where they are even interchangeable (see Lightning Flash, Shadow Escape).

What the OP described is not the functionality of shadowstep nor teleport rather it is the functionality of a portal (i.e. Portal Entre).

Shadowstep and teleport is like moving to the new location in an instant, thus it checks for valid pathing. Portal, on the other hand, ignores the pathing checks.

merrykitten .9423:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

merrykitten .9423:

BartHomer.7512:

Hey boys. I main ele and honestly if u actualy saying thieves are op u should go hide yourself. thieves have low health base, incredibly hard play style compared to other classes. NO BLOCKS! NO STABILITY! NO INVULNERABILITY! thieves are the weakest class at this game in every game time, especially in pvp where their are horse kitten. If anyone says they are op again just shoot urself pls

The kitten you talking about? Thieves has a kitten ton of blocks, stabiliity and invulnerability. You must be a terrible thief because you are ignoring the secret trait line: The BLOCKSTABILITYINVULNERABILITYMASTER. Bruh every thief runs this, you must be really bad if you can’t find this trait line. To unlock this: you take your thief and jump off a cliff and die 1000000 times. After dying so many times, your body becomes used to the dmg, so you just become completely immune. Almost every thief has unlocked this, how come you still havn’t done it yet?

This achievement is not easy to find though. I found this in my Thief by accident while doing the Arah story mode. There’s also a visual que when you unlock this. Your Thief is surrounded by an invisible glow that shows everyone that you have unlocked the hidden Thief art called “Shadow Form”.

If you have HoT, you’ll easily unlock this achievement by not using your glider.

Exactly, this trait line is so easily obtained, yet thieves still say they are not op, they need to be nerfed immediately!

I already added 2 nerf suggestions in the Nerf Wish List thread. Thief’s brokenness needs to be fixed to keep the status quo.

While D/x spams HS, Staff spams Vault…it’s ridiculous.

For example, Vault hits for 5k-6k crit and with Trickery, you can use Vault 3x which deals damage around 15k-21k crit damage which is enough to kill any low health players. Also the fact that Vault is an AoE, the potential of Vault killing 5 players at the same time is beyond comprehension why such thing is allowed to exist. In addition, the Thief is evading at the same time so there’s no stopping this maddening insane pogo-clown.

merrykitten .9423:

BartHomer.7512:

Hey boys. I main ele and honestly if u actualy saying thieves are op u should go hide yourself. thieves have low health base, incredibly hard play style compared to other classes. NO BLOCKS! NO STABILITY! NO INVULNERABILITY! thieves are the weakest class at this game in every game time, especially in pvp where their are horse kitten. If anyone says they are op again just shoot urself pls

The kitten you talking about? Thieves has a kitten ton of blocks, stabiliity and invulnerability. You must be a terrible thief because you are ignoring the secret trait line: The BLOCKSTABILITYINVULNERABILITYMASTER. Bruh every thief runs this, you must be really bad if you can’t find this trait line. To unlock this: you take your thief and jump off a cliff and die 1000000 times. After dying so many times, your body becomes used to the dmg, so you just become completely immune. Almost every thief has unlocked this, how come you still havn’t done it yet?

This achievement is not easy to find though. I found this in my Thief by accident while doing the Arah story mode. There’s also a visual que when you unlock this. Your Thief is surrounded by an invisible glow that shows everyone that you have unlocked the hidden Thief art called “Shadow Form”.

If you have HoT, you’ll easily unlock this achievement by not using your glider.

BartHomer.7512:

Hey boys. I main ele and honestly if u actualy saying thieves are op u should go hide yourself. thieves have low health base, incredibly hard play style compared to other classes. NO BLOCKS! NO STABILITY! NO INVULNERABILITY! thieves are the weakest class at this game in every game time, especially in pvp where their are horse kitten. If anyone says they are op again just shoot urself pls

I tried, but pistols got nerfed.

Sparrow.5936:

I’m liking the staff so far, but compared to all of our other weapons, ability 3 is a bit lackluster.
4 ini, remove cripple and immobilize. 1/2s evade. weak damage.

I agree. I personally don’t use Staff #3 since I can already cleanse cripple and immobilized using Unhindered (Dash). It’s a waste of weapon skill slot and a waste of initiatives.

Zero Day.2594:

Kageseigi.2150:

Zero Day.2594:

That mathematical model seems rather flawed, Dr. Kage.

Of course it does. It is based on ANet’s mathematical principles, not mine :-P

According to them…
(4,344 * 1.1) = 4,344

…

As flawed as that may seem, I believe it comes from the same notion of +1 for the thief. Since we’ve already established that 0 < T < 1, T is then a fraction. However, players cannot be quantified in fractal form, as in there can’t be a half a player, they then proceed to round up T, giving it a value of 1. Like wise 1.1 is rounded down to 1 so that 4,344 * 1 = 4,344.

From this we can also deduce that T may very well be 0.5 <= T < 1, since in order to round a number up it has to be at least half or more.

That’s some amazing math Zero. :P

However, the value of T fluctuates depending on the number of opponents in a given encounter.

For example, here’s a typical model of what is expected of Thief:
T=1 in 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4

Thieves have zero contribution in these fights, might as well detach from the group and decap a node:
T=0 in Tv1, 1v2, 2v3, 3v4, 4v5, and 5v5

Thieves becomes a liability in these fight engagements:
T=-1 in 1v3, 2v4, 3v5
T=-2 in 1v4, 2v5
T=-3 in 1v5 (might as well not bother)

That holds true based on the belief of “+1” which is never an effective strategy. Take the 5v5 scenario for instance, since the Thief has zero contribution, if the Thief choose to detach to decap, he’s leaving his group outnumbered — which at this point won’t make any difference because he has zero contribution to the fight. Might as well make himself useful by trying to decap. The worst part is, this is the role of the Thief by design.

What: Bandit’s Defense
Why: I’ve always known that this skill will be a problem. First of all, Thief should not have block since they don’t carry a shield or have any divine powers like the Guardian. Second, this skill has a short cooldown for a knockdown skill. Lastly, it’s a stunbreak. I understand that the effects from this skill are something that Thief needs, but putting them into one skill is not very smart.
Suggestion: Remove the block from BD, instead make it a skill that breaks stun and causes AoE knockdown. Then increase the cooldown to 30s. This is a typical effect when a bandit is surrounded and kitten their pants.

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Never really played a thief past using him for stealthing through CM, if i were to build for high-level fractals (51+) what build should i go for? I’d like to utilize the staff if possible.

Here’s a thought. Why not try completing the dungeons without skipping, stealthing through, or speed running? Play it like how it was meant to be played.

I can guarantee you that after completing all dungeons, you’ll find the build that is right for you which you can take into Fractals — in addition to the knowledge gained in actually playing the profession.

From what I’ve read so far, there is no problem with the staff rather there’s a problem with the build.

Why would you spec SA in PvP, ever?
And Why would you spec SA using staff?

Those are the biggest problem here. If you want to run those builds, use another weapon set complimentary to the build — and not trying to fit staff into a stealth build and complain about how it doesn’t workout very well.

Let’s add a new nerf wish here.

What: Vault (Staff 5)
Why: For a cheap cost 5 init, this skill can crit for 5k-6k in addition to the range and evade time frames. It makes the Thief harder to deal with especially when also traited with either Unhidered or Bound GMs. Watching a Thief cycle Vault-Bound-Vault-Bound-ad nauseum is really frustrating because each evades attacks which triggers a lot of on evade passives;
- Driven Fortitude (heal)
- Escapist’s Absolution (cleanse)
- Feline Grace (vigor)
- Upper Hand (init)
It’s just ridiculously OP. And it’s even more annoying when the Thief takes stealth skills because they can initiate with Hook Strike for knockdown and before I can get up they’ve already tea bagged me a couple of times with Vault.

Hectorim Sears.1479:

However, both of those builds arent using Venoms at all. Are Venoms really as bad as I heard? I know that somewhere in the past venomshare thieves were nerfed, does that make Venoms subpar, and if so, why?

Venom’s long cooldown and the effect with short duration makes it a liability. Besides there are better choices to fill up the same utility slot.

Secondly, I see both Caltrops and Traps being used. What makes them viable? Havent used either really (regrettably), mostly because Ive never had people run into any of my traps in an active fight on my Ranger, so I kind of shunned Thief traps too, and from what I can see Caltrops acts kind of like a trap.

Ranger traps are hard to use because you have to remain passive about it and wait for others to run into it. However, Thieves can use traps aggressively by activating the traps then Stealing before you finish casting. When timed correctly, you will place the trap right on top of your target. Same thing with Caltrops, you can activate it then Steal before the casting time finishes.

I personally like Caltrops because of its large Area of effect.

Impairing Daggers is not flagged as a projectile, which is odd, thus not a combo finisher.

IRC, Distracting Dagger is the same thing.