No one is complaining about theives because mesmers have completely shot up in terms of strength. I can imagine the top mesmers totally shutting down fights solo, which something a thief cant hope to accomplosh on the same scale. Guard DPS ( in relation to the other DPS classes) is fine. Guard’s mechanic revolves around actively blocking and blinding. Warrior, in contrast, is essentially a juggernaut. Complaining about a guard’s blocks is like complaining about warrior’s hp, which is more or less the dividing factor between the two classes.
Of course, you can go on to mention that guard’s active defenses > warrior’s HP because zerk guardian was meta while zerk warrior was not, but that isn’t because zerk warrior was bad, or weak, but because celestial and thieves existed. If you would recall, a majority of zerk builds had problems with celestial and guard was only taken because of how efficiently they were able to deal with thieves and the partial team support they brought with them.
Spirit weapons would end up being a burn build, so yea. I adapted my old medi zerk to medi marauder and took virtues with honor and valor. Not sacrificing any of my DPS and actually getting more +HP + team support. All in all, I feel like everything has been a plus so far.
^nooooot exactly.
If that’s the case then neeeeveeer mind. I’m done adding my salt here. I just wanted to have a hearty cry over conditions lol. Have a good day necros.
Huh, I’ve seen pure tank necros. They just survive and res people. Power necros are strong, yea, but a lot of their damage is telegraphed. Thieves and mesmers would just blow them up from stealth. As a guardian, I know for a fact that power necro, while a force to be reckoned with, is no big deal if we focus on timing our defenses vs FIREALLTHEDPS. I can imagine power warriors and rangers having a bit of a hard time, but it can’t honestly be this spec that’s causing all of this salt.
I don’t have that much of an issue with their burst or their daze. Their blink existed from the start if the game. In fact, all of these existed since the beginning. As much as I want to vomit salt over stealth bursts (I really do), its the pure zerker amulet that’s making all of this DPS possible (among a few other trait tweaks).
Lol, even marauder guard doesn’t have that much issues ressing players. Its all about the honor tree.
Translation: you made crucial mistakes that you can even identify that cost you the fight. Yet you claim that the necro is mechanically OP when you already know exactly what you could have done differently without changing your build to win.
Guardians: Shelter and Renewed Focus make focusing them pointless for a period of time.
Rangers: Sword and Greatsword both have fantastic disengage potential, Longbow has stealth to drop focus and reposition, and a Wolf (standard PvP pet) can peel everyone off you for a couple seconds.
Warriors: Stances. What does focusing them do?
Necros have no ability to disengage or negate focus.
I’ll go as far as to admit that medi guardian is a rather forgiving build as far as power builds go, which frustrates me when I know that a single mistake will totally ruin me vs a spec that primarily relies on passive play to get by. Imagine what power warriors or rangers have to go through? Power necros are half as cheesy as this spec, and honestly, no one really cares about necro in general. Its condition builds. Anet, coincidentally, made it so that necros had all the tools available to them to dominate a condition meta. That’s why necros (along with our lovely stealth bursters) are at the forefront of all of this QQ.
Shelter lasts for two seconds. Renewed focus lasts for 3. 5 seconds of damage negation (you can be feared/magnet pulled through shelter if your prediction skills are on point). All while moving at a laughably slow speed and then eventually getting shrekt.
Warriors get ONE stance to avoid damage and it lasts 4 seconds. Fortunately, they can escape with GS (IF THEY HAVE IT) and even then, they’ll get hunted by every class except for necro and eventually shut down.
Rangers have one signet and one 1200 range leap. Sword is OK, but I see it as standing out more for its evasive properties rather than its escape skills.
What do necros have? A second HP bar that now, thanks to anet, seems a lot more easier to fill up/maintain.
Also, all this talk of escape means jackkitten in a conquest game mode. You escape, you leave the point uncontested. As a necro, if you put yourself in situations where you’re constantly getting ganked by 2 of more people, you honestly shouldnt complain since absolutely no one would be able to survive such a situation for longer than a few seconds.
I believe the thread name should be changed to conditions, since power necros are OK.
All in the title.
With the way condi’s are right now, plus the sheer tankyness they have always had, they have ruined PvP for me.
really? power necro exists which is quite squishy, its only the bunker necros holding sooo much survivability.
Also with Mesmers and Engineers sitting how they are u think NECROS ruined pvp? oh please, I’ll take someone who has 0 presence and lives forever over the Shatter condis Disrupting everything u do and finishing u in 2 seconds flat, or a Engi abusing the bugs which cause them to hit u for 15k dmg with Gernades.
I think its Stupid to QQ on Necros, they’re about the only class with 0 OP Mechanics and Resembling balance lol.
And yet..here I am…loading as much condi clear as I can..to avoid being 100 to 0 by somebody sitting at 900-1200 range , doing nothing but press buttons as they come off CD, then run in circle while pressing 1 on scepter…and yet…necro is considered UP…kk
So poor necros lose when a team focus them…hhmm that’s goes for every freaking class in the game??
What about necros sitting in the backline pressing scepter 1, all passive condi crit/transfer..is that hard too? What about triple signet necro, is that UP too? Newly support necro?
..all UP isn’kitten
And apparently making no effort to close said 1200-900 range gap, since Necros don’t have gap openers. This is about as L2P as you can get.
And no, not every class does lose when focused by the enemy team. Everyone but Necro has some ability to escape that focus or make it pointless for some time.
Guard, generally, has no escapes. All of his mobility skills drive him deeper into the fight. Sure, you can argue that we have blocks, but they only really help you survive for a few seconds if you’re being focused. Even less if you’re facing a torrent of conditions.
Warrior has literally one weapon that allows them to escape, but that weapon is tied to a DPS build that without endure pain or resistance will, again, get melted down in seconds.
Ranger has signet of stone and that’s literally it. You can talk about GS, but its the same issue that warrior has but with even less mobility and innate tankiness.
Literally 4 of the 8 classes have any RELIABLE escape mechanisms when running away from non-bads, so don’t give us any of that “BUT NECRO CANT ESCAPE” bs.
I adapted my pre-patch medi build to the new system and managed a total of the following stats without boons:
2.3k power.
2.3k armor.
55% crit rate.
200% crit damage.
20k HP.
And, for the sake of this argument, 2 sizeable condi clears and one mini clear.
And, of course, healthy access to basically every boon in the game save for swiftness and resistance.
There were at least four or five necros I ran into in the last 10 games that literally ran around in circles, dropping condi bombs and hopping in and out of death shroud like it was nobody’s business. I, once, made the mistake of attacking the necro while they had spectral armor up after I burned through the initial DS (which was three quarters if the way full). He literally regained over half of his shroud and kept running around dropping marks and condi blasting me. I had no idea how I was supposed to kill him. Our fight literally lasted so long that I had a chance to throw SoW into my burst AFTER JI came off of cooldown and bursted for nearly 15k damage, which he still shruged off until I got +1d by a thief. I would’ve died looooong ago if didnt have my buttloads of cleanse, but he just kept laughing my damage off. Mind you, when the thief came to +1, I was 5k HP with around 2 stacks of burn, bleed, and poison, with my main clears being on CD.
Am I saying that its impossible to kill a condi necro? No. I’m certain that had I not made the mistake of helping him regain his LF and waited out the armor, I could’ve dropped him with my following bomb, but the fact that I had to time my skills, space out my cleanses, attempt to block his AUTO ATTACKS and he just had to run around in circles just waiting for his condis to do the trick is just not fair. Necro, and especially their condi spec, epitomizes the worst style of play in the game and it honestly, sincerely
Needs.
To.
Go.
(edited by SlayerSixx.5763)
Supreme should join the balance team. Seriously, this is what a good chunk of players feel and probably couldn’t have placed their thoughts out as well as this.
So throw in 25 vuln from the Jesus beam trap and ggnore. Literally nothing would be able to tank nearly 30k instantly.
Except for diamond skin ele’s >.>
So treat every Ele like they have diamond skin and poke them first :P?
Berserker offers better crit damage. Assassin offers more crits. Marauder is the old zerker. You’ll opt for berserker most of the time when you run burst classes because anet has handed out fury like candy.
So throw in 25 vuln from the Jesus beam trap and ggnore. Literally nothing would be able to tank nearly 30k instantly.
Oho, my bad then. I can see why this would be a problem now.
SlayerSixx: you are right the GH trait is almost never considered if you (we) take Virtues. AR is far superior.
But if you play for being a +1 mostly (with sw or sc focus and hammer) than you are a nice welcome to that fight. I think a Hammer-wielding Guardian with FeelMyWrath is like a rabid dog… You know it goes for the throat and if you do not shoot it down within seconds you going to die…
Pairing it with GS or staff is a very big NO however…
Just my two coppers…
+1 is a role that is muuuuuuch better filled by mesmers and thieves, now more than ever. You’re stuck roaming very slowly, doing good damage, only to see theives and mesmers roll in at the speed of light (or faster, since they’re usually invisible) and instantly nuke their target and quickly move onto another one.
There’s the potential for such a gimmicky build to have at least one burn tick for 23.5k damage. The only issue is getting all 38 (conservative estimate) stacks to tick at once (with 25 self-might). The total damage dealt is absolutely catastrophic.
#HailRodgort
Did you throw in some vuln?
Diamond skin’s tool tip says it makes the elementalist immune to conditions while in earth. I’m assuming this works the same way resistance does in such a way that it leaves the elementalist immune even if you hit him with conditions before he goes into earth.
Now, here’s the deal. Elementalists generally revolve around attunement swapping. If he’s camping earth to keep the condis off, then his offensive pressure has just taken a big hit.
Also, 3 guys couldn’t auto attack him, a class with the lowest HP pool in the game, past 90%? Like I know some players run rabid and have very little power, but really?
Except not everyone is running premades and not every pugger is smart.
So you want the game balanced around pugs and 1v1s rather than team play? yeah..
Listen, I get that they balance with competent players in mind, but eve you have to agree that some of this is a little crazy.
All I’m hearing is “I built for full DPS which is only viable thanks to my ridiculous amounts of stealth and think that being able to reset fights/stun more than your average build has stunbreaks is totally fair and not OP”.
PvP is a team game. Once you survive the initial burst your team needs to peel for you and counter pressure the thief/Mesmer. If the thief is yolo stabbing you to death, you and your team are not doing their job or they are tunnel visioning the other opponents.
Except not everyone is running premades and not every pugger is smart.
It’s kinda logic a thief keeping up stealth because moving around in the “shadows” but when they get a greatsword in chest cannot stay “hidden” from our eyes…
The difference being is that thief and mesmer stealth is magic so it’s really more like an invisibility spell than sneaking around in the shadows.
Which achieves the same purpose, although you could use magic as an excuse as to why you can’t physically cut them out of stealth.
I don’t get all these mesmer hate yet everyone is fine with a thief who shadow step/steal hit you with basilisk and burst you while you are stunned. WHAT’S THE DIFFERENCE?
Oh no, no one is saying that thieves are fine. This is just a L2P thread with mesmers in mind. All of my thief salt is being saved up for another time.
All I’m hearing is “I built for full DPS which is only viable thanks to my ridiculous amounts of stealth and think that being able to reset fights/stun more than your average build has stunbreaks is totally fair and not OP”.
Not in PvP, unfortunately. Not by a long mile.
You’re looking at an incredibly slow weapon vs a majority of targets that will laugh circles around you. The minority that is slow will bludgeon you to death if you get too close. The very valuable chill is competing with a team wide cleanse, which is far more valuable if you consider how powerful burn has become (among other condition related things).
(edited by SlayerSixx.5763)
By the way, did you consider running rampager? I feel like defensive stats are a waste now and you’re better off doing as much damage as possible.
Even tho that’s a trash game but PWI handled this very well, stealth ends when the player gets damage.
It’s kinda logic a thief keeping up stealth because moving around in the “shadows” but when they get a greatsword in chest cannot stay “hidden” from our eyes…
Ofc when you get popped from stealth and bursted in 2-3 second you can’t counter just with preparations, I always keep signet of stone for cases like that. But when the bursts ends or the attacker realizes that I get 0 dmg just covers back to stealth..
Eyyyy a fellow PW player. Reason why you can’t compare PW to GW is because the assassin could usually just hop into stealth and then holy path out and use their flying mount to avoid the aoe. Of course, thieves here have ways of manually closing/creating distance, but VS practically any spec that isn’t another thief or fresh air elementalist, the thief will constantly get cleaved out of stealth and will essentially go from stupidly OP to totally UP (same would apply to mesmers, in greater capacities). I agree that stealth itself needs a rework, but something like that would shut those two classes out of PvP entirely.
Learn to read instant bursts from invisible targets that can stun you three times in a row while teleporting around like deranged poltergeists. Such a l2p issue, amirite?
It’s not instant though. You do know you can see clones run towards you right…..you can dodge shatter just like you could prepatch. Its nothing new.
If you are having problems now , chances are you were having a problem with mesmers before, and that does make it a L2P issueUhm, you can dodge while stunned? This is news to me. I really need to read up on those patch notes and get good.
Stability/stun break is your friend. All classes have access to it.
How often can your usual build stunbreak in a single minute? My money is on twice. I play medi guard mainly and am currently running virtues along with the usual valor traits. I have CoP and VoC to break stuns/apply stab. Not counting JI because I’ve already burned it initiating (I’m probably dead if the mesmers catches me and +1s me in the middle of a fight).
What do I, the guardian, have?
Two stunbreaks and about <5 seconds of stability (that the mesmers can still strip iirc). Of course, I never forget to follow up with a block right after (usually shelter if the timing is right).
What does the mesmers have to counteract this?
A horrid amount of stealth (nearly puts d/p thief to shame). Three stuns that the mesmers can use back to back. One is a shatter that they can cast alone (they’ll usually bring up all of their clones, stealth, daze shatter which becomes a stun, and then follow up with the mindwrack). The other two come from a mantra they can cast freely thanks to the ridiculous amounts of stealth that they have.
This is my experience as a guardian. What on earth do you think warriors or eles have to go through? What about rangers? People were crying about shoutbow and d/d, but neglect to mention that kitten like this exists forcing people to run cheap builds to face bullkitten builds.
Honestly, I don’t know what mesmers you people have run into, but I’ve certainly seen some kitten. I’m also a good guardian ankitten ot afraid to back up my claim if y’all ever want to duel/pug me in game.
I don’t know man. With all the DPS being churned out, I feel like the berserker amulet is still the better choice. I don’t know how many times I ate a 12k backstab or a 10-15k shatter combo. I’d rather just ride out my blocks instead of try to tank the damage as hard as it is to accomplish vs an invisible target with no tells. I feel like only warriors and necros have that luxury.
If they could make stealth work like halo stealth where they’re translucent rather than transparent and make them untargetable and take like, 20-30% less damage so they don’t get totally ruined by warriors and guardians, this would be fine.
Learn to read instant bursts from invisible targets that can stun you three times in a row while teleporting around like deranged poltergeists. Such a l2p issue, amirite?
It’s not instant though. You do know you can see clones run towards you right…..you can dodge shatter just like you could prepatch. Its nothing new.
If you are having problems now , chances are you were having a problem with mesmers before, and that does make it a L2P issue
Uhm, you can dodge while stunned? This is news to me. I really need to read up on those patch notes and get good.
With a burn guardian, I can get 10 stacks of burn in a 2 second window lasting about 6 seconds dealing 4k damage per tick that I can renew every 40 seconds. If I avoid waiting for the runes to proc, I can get 6 stacks every 12 seconds dealing 3k damage per tick for 6 seconds. All of this at 1200 range. All of this using two skills and a bunch of passive procs. Gotta love how this is 10x easier to play than a LB power ranger.
“Necros might be competitive pls nerf”
They are not competitive their dmg is out of the scale now. And lots of ppl playing them and using that advantage while they can.
Enjoy while it lasts.
How is it out of scale?
Whats out of scale is the ludicrous RNG involved that necros, coincidentally, can make great use of (theives can to the same extent, but this isn’t a thread about them). What makes them stand out vs theives is that necros have somehow been buffed to actually be able to take damage to a rather respectable degree. Personally, I say its an air/fire issue rather than a necro issue, but I’m not sure people care too much about that and just want some of that BS gone :P.
Learn to read instant bursts from invisible targets that can stun you three times in a row while teleporting around like deranged poltergeists. Such a l2p issue, amirite?
Its like praising the sun, but hotter.
10k whirls. Such a dead class, no? SoW bursting for 7k. Such death. 4-5k auto attacks. Holy crap anet, we need more power.
With the absolute insanity that mesmers, theives, and necros are packing, you cannot afford NOT bringing shelter with you. Damage mitigation is far too valuable now that a true zerker amulet exists and you can practically eat 12k openers with even more follow up damage.
Now that’s perfect. Its exactly how the guard is meant to be played. I just hope anet is still open to suggestions or we might end up waiting another year for this.
Until it becomes instant, it’ll never be able to hold a candle to shelter.
As much as I like your suggestion Ragnar, we need to stop with these on crit effects. Its starting to get out of hand and honestly, we need to get rid of all this RNG in our PvP. Sure, I like my rage sigil, but we just need to stop. Personally, I’d prefer if SA did around smite condition’s damage per aegis burst, which would be a tad bit OP if you couple it with something communal defenses and fragments of light, but a grandmaster does deserve that much power if utilized properly.
I want to be the voice of my guardian. Anet needs to make this happen.
This is a concern of mine aswell, since i have already geared my guardian with ascended with this gear change i may have to go through and recreate my armor as most my vit comes from the trait lines.
Considering the trait reallocations in every tree, I imagine everyone is going to reevaluate their gear regardless.
qft
Wait, you’re telling me that they actually might reward you for proper blocking? Holy kitten, the hype is real. Fingers crossed that things go well post patch for us.
Zerk amulet may not work for guard, but they’ve made the same thing and just moved it over to another amulet. I saw the mes and thief changes and while they seem a smidge daunting (like you really have to be on your best game vs a decent player of these classes) I’m not really fazed. That being said, I very well may have my kitten handed to me post patch, but then again I might not. Start crying bloody murder after you actually try the thing. This is like the DH QQ all over again.
I don’t know man. Most ground targeted aoes are pretty impossible to fully utilize in this game period. That’s kinda the reason why things like staff Ele, staff for necro, staff for guard, warrior LB, wells, etc, are seen as support weapons in sPvP. People just drop the aoe on the point yo cover it because, as I’m sure you know, that fighting off point is a big no-no. Think of it as merely an area denial tool. If you run zeal/honor/virtues, dropping a symbol will be your way of telling the enemy to kindly gtfo point. Adding chill to it would just break the symbols.
I was thinking of making shelter a consectration. Think of it as designating a small space around you where you block most forms of damage, like sanctuary. A lot simpler to do/justify than tweaking two different skills, although the litany change sounds interesting.
While you’re waiting for your 1.5k ticks to kill your target, everyone else will be setting up amazing bursts of sorts that will easily overshadow this. The only skills that can reliably throw out those three stacks, aside from VoJ’s active, is torch4. Reaching high stacks (to mirror the buffs direct damage has gotten) would be nearly impossible in a setting vs competent players.
Eh true, just reliance on one damaging condition can be problematic when you account for all the condition cleanses in game & the fact that resistance is being added.
Less of an issue due to guards ability to reapply burning constantly. No amount of clense will be able to avoid the continuous burn pressure if specced for it.
Re-apply small stacks. You only see respectable damage when you hit the high stacks and those get cleansed far too easily and soon before that could happen.
I know that, but itll be a fun build to roll with when you aren’t tryharding.
Such fire, much holy kittening hell. Throw in a spirit hammer and just CC like mad while stacking a million stacks ez.
Shelter’s heal is OK at best. If people wanted the heal for straight up healing, our signet does around 8k. Guards take shelter for the block and blowing a block at any time is dumb. If you’re struggling against people blowing shelter for the heal, I’ve got news you won’t particularly enjoy.
That the heal does less than healing signet is irrelevant to the point, it is a dumb skilless heal that you don’t have to position for or cover, because it lacks counterplay, which pretty much describes the healing in this build fullstop, passive healing, a heal that blocks, heals on instant cast meditations, even the active heal on the virtue is yet another instant skill.
If the passive aegis every forty seconds, which can be burnt by an auto attack, is giving you trouble, that news of mine is only going to sound worse.
Nothing to do with “giving me trouble”, it is simply more passive kitten, nor if you engaged your brain is it simply a case of removing the aegis, there is no indication of when the virtue is going to come off cooldown after being activated, when it does come back it applies aegis instantly, on occasion this has saved me on my guard, where assuming the opponent checked for aegis, it popped as they were using their skill, which is just more passive RNG with no counterplay.
100 HPS passive is OP? Well then.
As you conveniently ignored, the master level trait backpack regenerator on engy is a considered a good trait, it heals for 30 HP more, people trying to pass off the virtue’s passive healing (+the emergency heal) as near worthless are either dishonest or clueless, especially in a build that already has a ridiculous amount of healing, it is just more passive skills BS that make builds like medi guard faceroll.
Whacking away with the hammer as in what exactly? The auto? You’re getting hit by auto? Every attack on hammer is terribly telegraphed. Seriously, are you lagging?
Me? When I bothered to play this game, sometimes I would get immobilized, knocked down, etc by other players (this is not a duelling game) or sometimes I am already fighting so am low on cooldown /dodges, sometimes I simply make mistakes, so yes sometimes I do get hit by hammer skills, just as players who are going to WTS get hit by them, obviously you never get cc’d, have perfect positioning 100% of the time, etc and are off to Germany in August to win WTS 500-0, with your exceptional skills.
So back to reality, even the best players get hit by hammer auto sometimes, Glacial Heart is just another braindead passive proc on crit skill that makes builds like medi guard so noob friendly / braindead.
A passive 300 more burn damage every five hits. I suppose your perma poison on auto is OK though, right?
My perma posion? I responded in reference to a CI mesmer.
You keep complaining about shelter having no counterplay, but what if I told you that there was a class that had access to an instant, massive, dodge roll that cures certain conditions AND heals for a similar amount to shelter. Notice how, like when you block, dodging helps you avoid damage entirely. Also, don’t forget how this particular dodge roll helps you cover a lot of ground that you can use, in some cases, as a clutch gap closer.
I’d like to invite any theives who have no issues dropping guard, but I doubt they’d have the time nor the inclination to drop some of the simplest knowledge upon you.
You complain about blocks, passives, and instants, but don’t mention how easy it is for you to simply camp stealth for a moment (only skills you REALLY need to worry about are CoP and SoW) until the guard has been worn down. A guard without CDs is dead. A thief without initiative can still escape and return when the opportunity is right. Also, glacial adds like what? 1k extra damage?
You talk about getting randomly jumped in a team fight. Last time I watched a tournament, theives don’t involve themselves in team fights unless totally necessary, so how would this even be a valid point in your head?
Reality of the matter is, a good thief has more than enough tools at their disposal to drop a target. If you also want to talk reality, like others have mentioned, don’t forget that zerk thief has made every other zerk build unviable.