Guild Wars 2

Alright, now that i’m off work and don’t have to post from my phone n.n

Let’s write a proper post.

Firstly before Answering your question, Grouch, as to what we the players would like to see or believe. I must first return a question.

Why jump directly to Professions when the game is lacking a Core placement known as “Roles” and a definition for them.

In Gw2 you can tell someone there is a DPS / Support / CC trinity but ultimately that Trinity is very, very soft and has no hard definition and in many cases, no trade offs.

DPS = Doing damage. Easy to do an anyone can do it. Yes it is possible to deal much less damage than someone else which means inherently there is some imbalance of trade off here… at Face value only.

Support = helping your party. this is extremely vague and can fall to Boons as much as it can Pressing F to Rez a downed player. Support typically means damage mitigation or healing and Healing Power Scales terribly for all classes. It is also not carried by a boon (boons applied to others absorb relevant #’s from who they sit on rather than whomever applied them). This leads to a very self serving type of support rather than fostering the want/need to have a Support oriented Player in your group.

CC – Control also casts a wide net and can fall to Stuns/conditions/Damage etc.. Mirky waters. a large percent of CC is easily negated either (pvp (including wvw)) or entirely negated (PvE, boss buffs, invulnerable, shortened durations etc..) Playing CC is extremely unrewarding overall at this time.

Here’s the other problem with casting such huge nets over the entirety of the game.

It’s far to easy to do two or all 3 things at once, on one toon, with little effort.

Let’s look at Warriors for an example, specifically the Hammer.

Hammer allows for Manageable DPS
Hammer Contains Multiple CC skills
Hammer does not supply Boons

Warrior Traits allow for More damage
Warrior Traits allow for CC mitigation and Damage mitigation
Warrior Traits Supply Boons

Warrior Utilities Allow for all of the above + Healing

This is not how things tend to work and from my experiances in gaming and in GW2, is not how they should ever work.

There is virtually little to no trade offs. no punishments or “lacking” costs to Define any Roles in Gw2 beyond – Does more damage than X in Y situation because of Z.

That being said.

In your opinion, what should the strengths and weaknesses of each profession be? What’s your profession’s kryptonite?

I think its a good idea to allow for each profession to have its own core weakness and strength. It still maintains a sense of a “chess match” where in one piece is better suited to do a job than another. But it should not entirely negate all other pieces from preforming the same task (just less efficiently)

But here’s the problem

Gw2 has 8 classes.
Gw2 has only 3 “Roles”

Those Roles can be split:
DPS – Spike / DoT
Support – Boons / Healing / Some forms of CC
CC – Conditional / Direct / Punishment / Some forms of Support.

This leaves us with 9 potential Strengths / weaknesses.
or
some large number of potential combinations that each class could fill.. even considering we eliminate possibilities where in a class is Better in everything or does Everything well with no weak points. I’m too lazy to do this math….

Mesmer:

Strength
Situational combat
Punishment
Cc

Weakness
Distance mobility
Bringing the wrong set up
Sustained damage

Current kryptonite
Los
Stealth
Conditions
Sustained damage
Ai dependency
Boone spam
Aoe

Edit bugs

1. Pros. Fun to play and rewarding to master, able to capitalize on situations and quickly react to changes in a fight.

Cons. Heavy trait reliance, limited builds due to class mechanic, very buggy, not very rewarding play in wvw zerg.

2. Builds. Sadly due to the trait changes recently builds will be very tied up and unusable to until you are able to reach level 80 and can use grand master lines. Early on just focus on finding weapons you like to use and if you like blowing up clones and phants or leaving them out to let them do damage.

3. Leveling is not difficult but becomes a bit due as it takes a long time until you even begin to unlock the better traits and skills that really make it fun and quick.

Personally i used S/F + Staff and when more Condition Damage oriented.

Tips i have are that Relying on Phants and Clones to stay up during this fight to do damage is a bad idea. they dont last for more than 1 shot maybe 2 if you’re very lucky.

Swiftness helps, it helps a LOT in phase 2 to counter the cripple or keep you out of reach. I just used the Focus to keep this up when i needed it.

as an after thought before i go to bed,

Mesmer Utilities are all very situational.

You may want to look at them yourself to help explain what does what and how.

The easiest to understand would probably be the Mantras (not terribly useful all the time but good for learning about double cast spells ie, the charge then use + use + cool down) and they pretty much state exactly what they do.

After that is Signet of Inspiration for learning about Boons and Passive/Active. she can pass good boons (when she learns what they are) to you and probably get warm fuzzies when it helps.

Blink / Decoy are a bit more advanced but also easy to get used to.

Veil / Null Field / Portal etc.. a bit harder to understand but starting with the others makes them easier to use. Portal can be fun to mess around with tho.

Mesmers are filled with short burst effects and skills that need timing at higher levels of play to be really effective. Hopefully by about level 60 or 80 she’ll have picked up the basics and can start refining things to get the most out of the class. then she can focus on learning the combos posted above ^.

A good place to start with that, that she may pick up on without much effort is Sword 3 → Sword 3 (while clone is on target) to Swap and then Sword 2 on the Immobilized foe.

Thats all i can offer.

GL dont forget to have fun and laugh at stupid things that happen.

Ok now that i’m off work, yes, Tell her to read tool tips, its sounds stupid but Gw2 lacks a lot of Tutorial Functionality and steps and just assumes players will read/figure it out on their own.

Once she is comfortable with a basic skill rotation/ using skills when appropriate (Staff 2 to get out of the way of an attack) Have her start playing with Shatters. the F1-4 addition and extra layer are a bit overwhelming on top of just learning a weapon and combat.

I would also recommend that you, yourself, make a mesmer and play with her. Learn the class together and about the combos and play style. It may also aid some of the frustrations and help you understand why she can / cant seem to get some aspect of the game.

a quick run down of the weapons (i’d recommend you start off with GS and Sword/pistol or Sword. then move to staff, see what she likes)

Scepter, as stated before, is not a great tool for new gamers as many of its attacks/uses are situational or a bit convoluted.

Scepter Auto – does damage, generates a clone on hit with end of chain.

Scepter 2 – Block that applies Torment and summons a clone and deals damage. Or can be activated to send out a ranged attack that blinds.

Scepter 3 – deals 3 pulses of damage and applies 3 stacks of Confusion.

Pistol – decent offhand for damage and CC. not as bad for beginners.

Focus – probably not the most beginner friendly but a good tool once she picks up on the way combat flows and can use the pull/cripples/projectile blocking.

GS – very straight forward weapon it does damage, has clear visuals and is useful in most situations.

Staff – a bit wonky if you are not accustomed to the movement thanks to Staff 2 which teleports the player away from the targeted foe, it can be disorienting. staff 4 will also be somewhat useless to her until she understands cause and effect of the aura.

Sword – also somewhat straight forward and a good way to introduce chained skills via Sword 3 (iLeap → Swap) also a good tool to teach the importance of evades and dodges.

Scepter is a very tough weapon to start out on for someone that new. I’ll post more later but first step would be to get her some swords and a staff and maybe a gs as those are much more straight forward weapons for the class..

I played around a lot with BD for a long time and had some minor success with it but the core issue with the trait is that it is an:

1. on shatter trait
2. duplicate

while its great to have traits that use our classes core mechanic, this one tends to step on the toes of everything related to it. the boons are lovely but shatters are situational. boons are also situational.

i dont need Retaliation after i use a large spike, the opponent is more likely to be healing or trying to get away.

Might on top of confusion is good and fits well to boost my pressure

Fury after an interrupt .. normally i’m interrupting to save my kitten and get away or get a heal in, and sometimes to set up a burst but in this case my interrupt usually doesnt come from shattering (as my largest burst is then on the back burner till i can pop more clones)

Regen ontop of invuln is nice but either i dont have the Healing to make it really effective or i’m using F4 to negate being focus bust into the dirt so the regen doesnt help a lot once i can take damage again.

This trait is also GM meaning you may or may not have room to take another, in this case, IP, using two lines for all your points severely limits what type of builds you can/should use.

if you give up DE, a solid choice for any shatter build, you limit your Damage and bursts by a considerable amount. if you chose to take DE, you then lose IP for always ready shattering.

BD also shares/copies the Might on Shatter and Retal on Cry areas, which IP already synergizes with extremely well and don’t really need to be duplicated with a GM trait.

BD also does lend itself to builds which rely on clones and phantasms being up for long periods of time and doesn’t offer much in the way of Defensive play in the Defense related Line, its much more of a middle ground/baton pass type of trait that would find a better home in Dueling or Inspiration.

While they have a synergy to them(IP + BD), the current placement of the two traits means its to the detriment of the other and to the player using them. if BD were a Master or Minor trait this would be drastically different.. but its just not the case.

this is also the third time in a row that the skill was fixed for the exact same thing..

I am unsure if this is related specifically to the Chaos of Lyssa drop or any other drop but when i looked at all my totals and then Anets exact words in the patch note…

“Open these for Festival Tokens and a chance at rare rewards”

I think the bug might not be that there are too many 0’s but the fact that there might be a Loot table that has been entirely canceled out.

Currently Chances grant Tokens OR, not AND, OR a rare reward.

Thus far, about 1k Bags down the road, I’ve noticed that whenever i receive a Favor drop, I do not receive a Token with it.

Is it possible that there is a Secondary Loot table on these bags that is not functioning as intended? Could this bug also Apply to the Zephyr Boxes and the Catcher Skins?

Falls in with all other related teleport bugs where you can end up stuck. Current fix is to use any emote and you will be able to move again.

Been like this since beta. Not really a new bug sadly

OP, you may want to update the title, Recipe is currently 2.7k Gold on the TP as the lowest posted Item.. Highest Being 2,999 Gold (just shy of the Price of the top 5 Highest Priced items on the entire TP)

Great.. I feel like Uninstalling if this is intended and any indication of where Gw2 is headed with its “Horizontal” progression.

I’ll go a bit off the beaten track here, and while i often dont use some of them.

3. Portal
Handy to have to get out of holes and bad situations considering you can plan ahead. Also nice to have around from your team.

2. Signet of Midnight
Boon duration help is always good considering the Mesmers limited access to long duration boons. It’s also good for a Blind when you need one, like on a downed player with a CC skill about to pop. The stun breaker part doesn’t hurt either.

1. Illusion of Life
Pretty much worthless when compared to other Res skills on other professions plus the stupidly long Cooldown. Still with an organized group it can grant just enough time to finish off a fight or gtfo so you can recoup and res anyone who needs it. Mostly carry this in large scale PvE or WvW, rarely in sPvP.

negative.. the only word on it came from another thread where someone told a Dev and were thusly told that the question was off topic and they should go create a new thread regarding this if one did not already exsist (theres about 15 or more of these threads across the forums)

What i find unbelievable is the complete and entire lack of consistency on these new items.

Grenth / Dwayna – RNG based but located inside of cheap and easy to attain boxes with rather reasonable drop rates. Expensive to craft – ultimately available year round.
^ Were bugged at their release via “invisible” on the TP and were somewhat quickly fixed so that All players could get a recipe and enjoy the content at their own pace.

Balthazar – sPvP reward – Bugged to be Sellable on the TP and quickly fixed to be account bound as intended – some people lost their skins – ultimately forever available to anyone willing to spvp for a few days or so.

Lyssa- Only available from Soulbound RNG boxes, which are only available from temporary content, which can only be accessed via drops that are also linked to temporary content which are also account bound and are also locked behind RNG (to an extent, drops, hoping you get enough tokens, or complete a blitz). Drop rate appears to be bugged, 0 reply’s, 0 transparency upon the subject for over a week.

Something stinks of sour dead Kittens if you ask me..

Metrics are unknown but at the ups and downs of buy orders I’d estimate about 12 have touched the tp since the pavilion went live?

Sariel V.7024:

I purchased the Light version last night and applied it to a character. Only the Light version of the skin was unlocked in the wardrobe.

Looks like you ans see eared your own question already and located the issue for yourself…

If there is a light and medium and heavy version of a skin then there are three unique skins to unlock. If the skin can apply to any armor class then there is only one skin to unlock..

So things like the gas mask are unlocked for all three at once while the monocle must be unlocked individually as there is a light and medium and heavy variant for the skin.

Not a bug just a gold sink and rng working as intended

only about 300 opened here and 298 tokens + two Favors of the Pavilion..

The lack of response to this (this topic alone has over 9000 views so people are INTERESTED in the answer) is concerning..

specifically when a “Taimi is Cute” thread gets 7 replies from Anet..

Abrilete.1439:

ANet mostly ignored their own Really-Official Ranger CDI… good luck with this one.

thank you for the well wishes but lets try to remain on topic n.n

Rather than insisting upon a whole new system of what would ultimately become “Hexes” from Gw1 (What phantasms were meant to take the place of, as well as confusion). Anet has made efforts, that now seem a bit crippling as things have been over simplified, to maintain distance from this type of thing.

So, rather than reintroducing Hexes, is there a feasible way to apply some if not all of these to the current mechanics? Being Traits, Skills, Boons, Conditions, Clones, Phantasms, etc..

If we apply this to Shatters, and then apply Shatter relevant Traits across lines, could it be workable?

Example: Clones Shatter/explode (Mind Wrack) If Foe uses a Healing Skill nearby (being slightly shorter than Mind wracks AoE)

This wouldn’t eat up your readied F1-4 Skills but would give clones a larger edge in small combat scenarios.. People would really want to stay away from them.

Well, I’ll just leave this here.

Suggestions -

Chaos Armor – Change on hit to PBAOE – Removal of Swiftness in favor of Regen or Vigor. Retain 1s for Pulse, reduce Boon durations to compensate for “guaranteed” application. Keeping Swiftness here would promote a more OP feel to the redesign, allowing whomever has it, to stay on top of a foe attempting to run out of the way.

Winds of Chaos – Removal of Vulnerability from RNG pool, replace with Weakness or Cripple (2s durations), – Mesmers have a wealth of Vuln in our traits and weapons, applying this to the staff Auto attack seems misplaced due to the low damage and other High Tick Conditions it carries. Weakness or Cripple are more control oriented and would make the staff much more concerning for classes that rely on Movement or Upkeep of Dodge.

Chaos Storm- Removal of Swiftness replace with Stability/ or vigor – Reduce base Cool down slightly (a few seconds) Swiftness just never fits well in the Chaos and with the high mobility many classes already have its effectiveness is questionable, I would rather see another boon in its place to give allies an incentive to remain in the spell apart from aegis.

Scepter Auto Chain – Reduce obnoxiously long Finisher skill to 3/4 or 1/2 second. The chain here takes longer than almost every other Auto chain on the class and other classes, and the animation is a dead give away as to what is about to happen. Bringing down the cast time/animation still signifies the attack and adds a higher sense of urgency to the target that they might want to evade now, and not 1 and 1/4th of a second from now.

Sword Auto Chain – Boon removal replaced with Increased Damage for target with Boon. It doesn’t seem fitting to have the Boon removal be at the end of the chain here when the class has so many other “upfront” boon removal. I would suggest that sword Main hand be more ideal for punishment of having boons and standing still than standing still so you lose a boon every few seconds.

Illusionary Riposte – Add Removes 1 or 2 boons on block – Reduce damage to compensate. This gives the offhand sword more punch and makes hitting the block more punishing.

Into The Void – Spell effect / animation would be nice, perhaps just a swirling replica of Portal when activated. Not super important but it would be nice so we have a clear marker that the skill has been used but the Light Field remains.

Wastrel’s Punishment – Replaced for + Damage % for unique boons on Target.

Confusing Cry – Now steps on Bountiful Disillusionment’s Toes, Replacement of Boon or Removal of Trait entirely would be preferable.

Imbued Diversion – Exchange Clone death to Interrupt causes AoE Daze to nearby Targets, ICD may be needed to prevent from 100% up time of daze on very large groups (WvW), the AoE daze the trait currently provides is neat but relies heavily on clones pathing successfully into a group of foes. Most people have witnessed how well clones do against multiple foes. Bringing more focus back to the Mesmer as the source limits the potential for AI errors/failures.

Downed-Rally Traits – Pick one to keep and one to replace, I cant speak to the amount they are used but they are very lack luster.

I’ll be back with more tomorrow
Until then, feel free to discuss or post your own.

IMO: considering the majority of Meta builds were left completely alone or only slightly tweaked… no it didn’t really change anything.

except for maybe Ele’s builds with the new traits.

EverythingEnds.4261:

Isn’t official somehow exactly the opposite of “community driven / by the community”?

Next problem “more ways to punish enemies”. Will never happen since ANet obviously wants at least thieves to be immune to any kind of punishment.

yes yes.. the topic is silly

but this is a good jump off point, thieves.

Thieves have 0 CDs on their skills and find the greatest benefit from “spamming”.

Punishments here are Retaliation and Confusion.

So, might I suggest that Mesmers be given a trait in either the Minor or Major lines that increases Damage on their confusion?

Since the introduction of perplexity runes and the nerf to confusion damage, its very difficult for ane to raise Confusion damage across the board, but if mesmers, as the masters of confusion were granted the ability to boost confusion damage they apply, would it balance out?

Obviously confusion would remain less effective in PvE due to AI relevant attack speeds but in WvW this could return Glamour to a useable Light, and in sPvP there are already many ways for the class to apply confusion to single targets almost constantly.

Preposal : Master of Misdirection – “Longer confusion Duration” – Traded for – “25-50% Increase in Confusion Condition Damage.”

NinjaEd.3946:

Crovax.7854:

If it’s not backed by Anet, why do you call it ‘official’?

Official Community CDI. Although threads get buried quite quick here so best of luck!

P.S as a main thief, I envy this thread.

^ It’s community driven, but that’s not exactly relevant to the topic.

I may be persuaded to do these for Other Professions, depending on how this turns out ;3

Now back on topic!

~Reserved for Updates and Links~

Greetings and salutations!

Welcome to the Community Driven CDI thread! This thread is a copy of the original in the Profession Balance Sub-forum, but re-posted here to allow for a more concentrated Mesmer “Main” perspective. Obviously this thread is not currently backed by A-net themselves, but they’re so busy why not make their jobs a little easier, eh?

So, let’s get to it!

The Mesmer CDI

Primary Goal: To Provide the Mesmer with a more unique access to Punishment (Control), whilst remaining within the classes predetermined mechanical flow and play.

Tool Box
*Traits
*Weapon Skills
*Utility Skills
*Class Mechanics

Debriefing:
Why only Punishment? Aren’t there other forms of Control? You might ask, and the answers are “Because” and “Yes, there are and they are not entirely off the table”.

After creating other threads and researching, the reason Punishment has been selected as the Primary focus is due to several reasons. These being that:

Hard CC is already accessible to the class and also falls victim to Stability/Stun breakers/Defiant/Unshakable Depending upon your game mode of choice.

Soft CC is mostly tied to Conditions which requires an in depth look and balance thread all their own.

Denial CC Is already present within the class in many forms and piling on top of it would seem excessive.

What is Punishment
Punishment is a type of CC that is as much Physical as it is Mental. Punishment plays heavily upon the “Risk vs Reward” rule that we can find both in game and in real life. Punishment forces both sides to make a gamble at the open and hope it pays off in the end.

This is something that A-net does seem more Open to for the Mesmer Class

Karl McLain.5604:

Some great ideas here guys! This skill is something we’ve been looking at, as it’s a little underwhelming at times.

Here’s a bunch of potential things we could do (we would do one or maybe two of these, not all:

1. Look at making it usable on the move. Currently, the animation is ONLY able to be used while standing still.
2. Increase the number of boons removed.
3. Increase the radius.
4. Make this a channeled skill that pulses AOE damage and boon removal while you hold the sword in the ground.
5. Multi-stab! You choose multiple ground targets and stab all of them simultaneously (or one-after the other). We don’t have tech for this yet… but it’s a possibility!
6. ???
7. Profit!

Tagging this thread for later.

Borrowed from here

Current Examples:
Boon Removal – Risk of reliance upon long duration/long CD boons
Torment – Risk of Reliance on high Mobility and/or Constant Movement

[Rules and Regulations]
1. Be Respectful
2. Be Open to healthy Discussion on Your idea as well as Others.
3. Please be thoughtful to Multiple Game Mode Balances.
4. Do not feed Trolls
5. Attempt to remain “Realistic” with suggestions.

Example Ideas/Posts:

Replace Wastrels Punishment – 5% Dmg vs Inactive Foes.
New GM Minor – x% Damage for each Unique Boon on Foe.

- This, with some tweaks, could balance very well as punishment for Boon heavy “Bunker” builds as well as Boon Heavy “Glass cannon” Builds while still remaining “underwhelming” against foes that do not rely on, or do not have substantial access to Boons.

Chaos Armor
- Convert from “On-Hit” to PBAoE

Change means guaranteed Boons/Conditions are dispersed in a more controlled manner that can also bring the use of CA into a more Friendly atmosphere. Some boons/durations/conditions should likely be changed to compensate.

~Keep it clean~

~Reserved for Updates and links~

Greetings and salutations!

Welcome to the 1st Community Driven CDI thread! Obviously this thread is not currently backed by A-net themselves, but they’re so busy why not make their jobs a little easier, eh?

So, let’s get to it!

The Mesmer CDI

Primary Goal: To Provide the Mesmer with a more unique access to Punishment (Control), whilst remaining within the classes predetermined mechanical flow and play.

Tool Box
*Traits
*Weapon Skills
*Utility Skills
*Class Mechanics

Debriefing:
Why only Punishment? Aren’t there other forms of Control? You might ask, and the answers are “Because” and “Yes, there are and they are not entirely off the table”.

After creating other threads and researching, the reason Punishment has been selected as the Primary focus is due to several reasons. These being that:

Hard CC is already accessible to the class and also falls victim to Stability/Stun breakers/Defiant/Unshakable Depending upon your game mode of choice.

Soft CC is mostly tied to Conditions which requires an in depth look and balance thread all their own.

Denial CC Is already present within the class in many forms and piling on top of it would seem excessive.

What is Punishment
Punishment is a type of CC that is as much Physical as it is Mental. Punishment plays heavily upon the “Risk vs Reward” rule that we can find both in game and in real life. Punishment forces both sides to make a gamble at the open and hope it pays off in the end.

This is something that A-net does seem more Open to for the Mesmer Class

Karl McLain.5604:

Some great ideas here guys! This skill is something we’ve been looking at, as it’s a little underwhelming at times.

Here’s a bunch of potential things we could do (we would do one or maybe two of these, not all:

1. Look at making it usable on the move. Currently, the animation is ONLY able to be used while standing still.
2. Increase the number of boons removed.
3. Increase the radius.
4. Make this a channeled skill that pulses AOE damage and boon removal while you hold the sword in the ground.
5. Multi-stab! You choose multiple ground targets and stab all of them simultaneously (or one-after the other). We don’t have tech for this yet… but it’s a possibility!
6. ???
7. Profit!

Tagging this thread for later.

Borrowed from here

Current Examples:
Boon Removal – Risk of reliance upon long duration/long CD boons
Torment – Risk of Reliance on high Mobility and/or Constant Movement

[Rules and Regulations]
1. Be Respectful
2. Be Open to healthy Discussion on Your idea as well as Others.
3. Please be thoughtful to Multiple Game Mode Balances.
4. Do not feed Trolls
5. Attempt to remain “Realistic” with suggestions.

Example Ideas/Posts:

Replace Wastrels Punishment – 5% Dmg vs Inactive Foes.
New GM Minor – x% Damage for each Unique Boon on Foe.

- This, with some tweaks, could balance very well as punishment for Boon heavy “Bunker” builds as well as Boon Heavy “Glass cannon” Builds while still remaining “underwhelming” against foes that do not rely on, or do not have substantial access to Boons.

Chaos Armor
- Convert from “On-Hit” to PBAoE

Change means guaranteed Boons/Conditions are dispersed in a more controlled manner that can also bring the use of CA into a more Friendly atmosphere. Some boons/durations/conditions should likely be changed to compensate.

~Keep it clean~

only issue i see is going less than 4 in Dueling for DE with a shatter build…

Oakwind.6187:

I agree with Handin to an extent. A lot of the skills are really buggy/wonky and the Mesmer profession desperately needs a unified direction and an overhaul, just like the Necromancer does.

What I do argue is that the last thing this game’s PvP needs right now is more daze and stun. I don’t mind learning when and how to dodge/block what clones/phantasms skills, but I do mind if I get chainstunned from 100 to 0, just as an example.

I feel you have a valid point about no more stun/daze to an extent.

Stability runs fairly rampant in sPvP on many “cheese” builds across multiple classes, and Defiant in PvE ruins these effects entirely. As hard as it is to chain stun, Longer chains probably is not the answer, specifically when they are all single target only..

I’d point out that cripple doesn’t affect many thieves i’ve met (teleports, Sword #2, Dagger #2, anything pistol, F1)

However a quick Blink out of reach and Behind said same thief can be hard for them to recover from (loss of target specifically)

same applies for almost any class apart from maybe rangers, and their stupid auto seeking pets lol..

This will be the third and final preliminary Phase to discussions before the Final topic is written up and posted.

Less centric to Mesmers and more to the game as a whole.

Currently there are mechanics and play styles in the game that balance off the Risk vs Reward system. That is, the higher the risk the greater the reward. However, there are some places in game where there is minimal risk or potentially no risk for what could be considered a non-equated Reward.

We’ll try to keep it simple using a 3 tiered scale of:

High –
Medium –
Low/None -

Off the top of my head I can suggest that:

Passive buffs – no substantial risk – medium/high Reward. (Spirit Rangers could fit here)

Boon “Spam” – Low risk – High reward (these are quick reapplication, less or not affected by boon removal/corruption)

The above may not apply to ALL game modes, but in the interest of averages, I’ll settle for 2/3.

Underlying question – What in Gw2 Lacks Punishment/Risk?

Idk why no one’s mentioned them but..

Tormented weapons are all purple and match Mesmers attack colors.

for what game mode?

zest.4192:

Just a thought- being that illusions already are intrinsically tied to one enemy(they disappears when the target dies), and therefore thematically are likely to only exists in the target’s head, what if clones could only be damaged by their main target and were hazy, insubstantial, and tinted some color for all other enemies(something to make it immediately obvious if you aren’t the player capable of damaging the clone)?

This change obviously couldn’t be applied to phantasms since for instance the phantasmal warden has effects hat apply to a large number of enemies- but making it so only one enemy has the potential to kill a given clone provides a simple means for mesmers to actually have access to their illusions in group PvP scenarios.

This would be a tremendous asset to shatter builds as well as builds that seek to use staffclones or sharper images on clones to apply conditions in a team PvP enviroment. It would also make all of the “compounding” traits better in a group pvp scenario since maintaining 2-3 would actually be realistic.

Well a less extreme method could be to do the same thing, but only provide immunity to AoE damage caused by enemies besides the main target, since it’s frequently passive zerg AOE that insta-kills illusions anyway.

This sounds hard to implement but it’s a good idea i hadn’t even considered. Ensuring our clones could remain up or make it to their destination would help with shatters and some of the Phantasms AoE.

I’m not sure how this would balance out in sPvP, tho it would make pressure on single targets more interesting it may end up being OP.

Still its good for thought.

@Allarius

You seem to have answered your own question in your post but let’s attempt an explanation.

From a purely wvw perspective, mesmers core mechanics become less and less useful as the number of combatants increases. Clones and phantasms die off and limit damage potential. Similar to rangers with dead pets this reduces our damage output and build options.

As confusion as a condition was needed pretty heavily game wide it’s looking at a more annoyance type of condition than the previous panic inducing condition. Even in very large stacks.

Mesmers suffer from very low aoe potential, most of it tied up in shatters or staff.

So yes, while having a utility role is indeed a role, how much fun is it really to know that your class is hindered, by design, in very large scale combat scenarios? Would you be satisfied if your main toon could only play this one role, which is using the utility side of your skill bar, and the rest would not matter or potentially even be appreciated by your team?

Even glamor was itself a utility bases build, it did not rely on clones or phants or shatters. At the time the Mesmers strongest build in wvw was that which ignored anets “intent” for our core mechanics.

Does that help?

I was testing a staff/ s/s condition build a while ago and did notice that Burn was very sporadic about when it did and did not want to tick. This may have been due to the duration stacking from myself and my clones (causing it to tick twice rapidly or only Once before falling away).

Without extensive testing i wouldn’t really have a clear answer and atm the laptop i’m being forced to use doesn’t allow me to play at Max FPS with 0 latency in game to time such exact spurts.

a t s e.9614:

By that logic thieves also need massive buffs then. A class doesn’t need to be good at everything and shouldn’t . Guards are the best support class and the most effective in blobs, however in 1v1 they suck. I would call it balanced.

I’m sure there’s more than a handful of guards that can attest that they do not, with proper build, suck in 1v1 what so ever…

Regardless, if you are not here to add to the conversation, but rather, detract from allowing a healthy conversation to take place.. i would suggest you spend your time elsewhere and on different topics.

Please and thank you in advance.

Edit: This will be the first, only and final time I will address you and grant you any attention in this or any topic hence forth.

Ether Signet can alter an open of a fight by allowing the Phantasm unload, but thats the open where you have brought it only for its active. If your build carries no other source for large heals, you have a 35s wait to regain passive heals and a chunky heal. If the fight lasts too long, or you don’t have enough alternate sustain this can turn a good start into a bad middle and then untimely end.

If you’re mostly using it for a passive, then its not too shabby if you can always keep 2/3 illusions out. However the heal isnt going to stop a large burst from seriously limiting your chances of lasting in a fight, nor will the active change very much in the middle of a fight or at the end.

The issue at the core for me is that the heal just doesn’t have synergy within itself or the classes mechanic (shatters).

Ether Feast tends to be the classes “go to” heal as its much easier to generate 2 or 3 clones and keep them up for the 1 or 2 Seconds it takes to use your heal and gain a lot of ground back, its also on a lower cool down which means you can stay in very hard and long fights for a greater period of time (specifically team fights, where your illusions may not stay up for too long).

Thank you for turning the discussion back around <3

So, just to throw a bit of suggestions,

How would you feel if Mesmers could grant AoE retaliation (to their party) via shatters instead of Vigor?

Would that change how you handle encounters (in a group vs group situation) if your party, the opposing party had a Mesmer?

Or

If Mesmers were given a trait/skill that caused chain daze on Interrupt? Example: interrupted target causes short range AoE daze to other foes (other foes then interrupted in turn, cause AoE daze).

Would that alter the Stack and Spank meta of WvW? Would you find more use for a Mesmer or multiple Mesmers running with you?

Nasty conditions being… bleed?

Sure staff offers a variety of conditions but many of them are on short durations, and require your clones to stay alive to really start hurting the enemy target (burns,bleeds)

Bleeding when brought to a team means often you’ll be overwritten or limited by others.

Clone death is a solid play style but Confusion isnt what it used to be, and keeping clones up amongst AoE for your passive heal is going to be extremely difficult when facing more than 2/3 foes max.

For those entering the thread, Welcome!

Recently I began a small undertaking that is questioning the community about the Mesmer in order to gain a better focus for a Much Larger topic I would like to present (and have your help with).

Thus far I have asked Mesmer players what they feel Mesmer seems to be “Missing” and a “Role” they feel it should be filling in combat and a party. The general feel is that Mesmers are lacking in Control, and should perhaps be a more CC oriented Class.

I also Asked them what types of CC we have that fall under the 4 Sub-types of CC.
1. Hard CC
2. Soft CC
3. Denial
4. Punishment

It would seem that Mesmers contain some of everything but most of it is very difficult to Chain together and “synergize” with the way the classes traits and weapons currently work.

--------------

All this brings me now to You, dear player and forum goer, as a Mesmer, or Non Mesmer. What do you feel Mesmer should bring to a Team? What would you like to see Mesmer take a “lead” in (speaking of “roles”)?

Please be sure to List the game mode(s) to which you are referring in your posts as there is a very large difference between the 3!

PS: Please attempt to steer away from discussing PU, this is a Trait that is deserving of a thread all its own along with Stealth as a game mechanic.

~Keep it clean~

Leaving this topic up but beginning {Phase 2} over in the Profession balance sub forum.
~thank you for all the replies thus far~ <3

Depends on who all is present and what the odds are but generally I’ll Start with the Ele or Necro. Both can cause a lot of trouble and one tends to go down very fast (ele) helping to even the odds or force the other side to rez.

Thief, if present is a Half/Half type of deal, typically they run stealth or are S/? and port in and out so frequently that making them a sole target rarely works out well, just force them out of the fight is generally my goal.

Next is either Engineer or Guard or Mesmer (depends on build). either get them to run away or down them.

Rangers and Warriors last as its easy to keep their ranged elements out of the fight (reflects) and in the middle of the fray they often eat enough AoE to make them easier to deal with at the end of the fight rather than the open as they have burned all their sustain skills.

Agree that illusions could use a buff. Don’t see the need to change the other two.. ether if anything needs a redo imo.

Ps I love Sig of midnight when I run a staff anything with phantasmal regeneration. And I know it’s not a popular view but I don’t think our class needs a passive speed boost trait skill or utility..

Null Field and iDisenchanter are a bit more popular on the Condition/Boon removal side of things. They arent as picky about working correctly and can really wreck havoc on multiple targets all at the same time.

I believe AT simply removes the Last (3) Boons applied and grants you their remaining durations. I cant be sure on that tho, there may be a specific order grabbed..

AT going on CD without doing anything is fairly common if you’re very new to the skill. It will not be affected by Blind to my knowledge, or Aegis (Unblockable) but it only functions in a “cone” that is directly in front of you to about 45’ maybe 60’ degrees to either side. This means if you run by your target (them being at your side or ending up behind you) when the skill finishes casting, you get no boons, they get no conditions and you get a kitten CD.

If the target falls out of the 900 range before the animation is finished, the same thing can happen as well.

I’ve found AT does its best work with the Increased range (chaos line trait) applied to it. If you can get out of battle or out of reach long enough to pop the skill it’s a nice feeling.

AT is also Dodge-able, as a final thought, so not a great option against high evade classes (ranger/thief).

Edit: Apparently “Forty Five” + s (for seconds) is frowned upon by the almighty filter..

I’ll just drop this in down here as i figure it can’t hurt and I can’t find a great way to put it back in the OP.

There are also several boons that can fall under CC deffinitions.

Stability
Aegis
Protection

Most of them fall under Denial, but I feel its important to note there is such a thing as Positive (preventative/reactive) Support intended CC as well. While they are also Counters (Stability) to CC, this does not mean they should be overlooked here.

Earlier in the week I posed a question to the community here on the Mesmer forums, and the general sense is that you, those that responded, feel that Mesmer lack Control ability or have less than feels ample.

So I want to propose another task for you, defining Control but, more specifically, Control that carries weight within Gw2’s Core Mechanics.

Results from this will carry on to something later, but details on that are coming… when they’re ready. ;P

There are multiple types of Control (CC) in Gw2 and many other MMO’s.

1. Hard CC - These are Knock Downs, Knock Backs, Pulls, etc.. things that move or entirely prevent action when they take place.

2. Soft CC - These fall as things which hinder the opponent, Cripple, Chill, etc.. But do not enforce a “loss of will” if we may call it, where in the target cannot react for the duration of the CC.

3. Denial - Similar to Hard CC, however in this case, the target is Denied an option tho they can still act upon it if they so choose. Examples would be the Line of Warding (Denial of movement beyond a point), Feed Back (Denial of Projectile Destination), etc..

4. Punishment - This is less of its own Control subset and more so an over arching theme. It is what takes during a “forced choice” where in, for example, you can Attack/use a skill and Take the damage from Confusion (punishment) or choose not to attack/use a skill and hope the next attack does not make you regret it (Potential Punishment). There is probably a better term for this but my brain is fried from the Heat today..

Your Goals: kitten the above, and yell at me Let me know if it needs additions, revisions, subtractions etc..

After that, Look at what types of control are the most “controlling” in your preferred Game Mode, what works and what does not? why does/doesn’t it work?

Lastly, What control options do Mesmers currently have access to?

~Keep it Clean~

Pyroathiest.4168:

Swish.2463:

As nice as it is to see discussion taking place, a new topic is more suiting for Mesmer Burst/DPS as this thread is a question regarding what role players feel the Mesmer class should be more opened to.

Trouble is that the burst damage discussion happened in the context of PvE. In PvE, fgs into a wall exists. This is what one would refer to as an outlier. Nothing can measure up to fgs into a wall because it’s a broken and silly mechanic. Remove that, and everything else looks a bit more balanced.

Then, when you look at mesmer burst in PvP it becomes very evident that you have to be incredibly cautious about buffing it. Running a standard glassy shatter build, I can do about 14k burst damage in <1 second starting in stealth at 1200 range. This is strong. There are many reasons why mesmer isn’t really viable at top level PvP right now, but raw burst output is not one of them.

Thank you for bringing context and the points out of it and bringing back into line then with your last post ^.^ It’s much appreciated.

And I do see the good points, and when looking at PvE vs PvP vs WvW balance should be approached carefully, especially when looking at just boosting raw damage numbers. But I dont, at this time, feel like Mesmer needs help or really should take the role of “best burst damage” in any game mode (thieves need something other than evades and stealth after all :P)