Guild Wars 2

I like some of the feedback already on my suggestion. Portals being clearly marked a color based on their user’s side would be a very good change. For the sake of balance, keep the portal when it is laid but not active the same color it has now, but when it goes live it should be a lovely shade of blue or red.

Another thought I had: Clear Red or Blue outlines on certain skill animations. Dragon Hunter’s Hunter’s Ward for instance? Have those arrows get a distinct outline so both sides know when someone is launching their Ward. Same thing for Meteor Shower from a Staff Elementalist.

I do not think these would ‘trivialize’ fights as it helps everyone see which side just did a strong AoE. Rather, it serves as a better output of critical information when there is just so much going on, without directly impacting the effects themselves.

I do admit, the faster course might be full-on color palette swaps to just red or blue, but an outline might be a better option.

You want to help with the clutter of watching a game?

Color the circles their respective team colors. Flashy Elites like Glint? Turn the whole dragon red for red team, just an example of course.

At least do this in Spectator Mode.

Players in the game being played might have already become accustomed to spell effects with different other colors (ala a distorted mesmer). However for those watching, not playing the game but taking to the sidelines and using the PoV and cameras, even a bit more information would help make the flashy effects a bit more understandable.

Thanks!

A few things.

- There’s a lot of elaboration and wordplay in the OP. ‘Pioneer in gaming’ who even says this about a company as a normal player?
- The last line about being a ‘Straight Liberal Male’ is irrelevant to the request being made, rather it is simply a part of a series of buzzwords meant to get a response…

Conclusion: OP is setting up a large bait with a large net, many of you fell for it.

Disregard the request, Smooth isn’t serious about this and is probably laughing in their seat about all the replies.

Put a different set of Legendary Armor outside of raids.

We can presume there is a decent amount of players who simply dislike raids yet would like the utility of it.

And actually if I think about it, I can think of a certain game-mode that has been largely starving for some sort of end-game goal other than ramming gates for days.

Boom, put a very long but plausible Legendary Armor in WvW, which takes weeks maybe months of dedicated WvW to accomplish both off-WvW season and during WvW season.

It’s an entirely separate entity from Raids, matching how SPvP and Fractals have the divide in their backpieces.

Whereas Legendary Weapons are the more general long-term goals of any regular player who dabbles in open-world or crafting or etc. Putting Legendaries behind each different mode as an end-game reward further demonstrates the mechanisms behind the original Legendary equipment where you needed to do everything in the game (well except SPvP, though they finally made tokens out of SPvP necessary).

As for the actual balance of this non-existent WvW legendary armor acquisition, that’s still in the air, I don’t think I need to come up with an example system here right now.

Gaile Gray.6029:

The last several pages of this thread have devolved into walls o’ text with back-and-forth insults. This thread can continue to be interesting and valuable — or at least acceptable -- but that will require everyone to please stay on topic and stop playing Quote Wars™.

Before posting, stop and ask yourself:

• Is it true?
• Is it fair?
• Is it necessary?

Please… post wisely.

I will post wisely and at length, you have been warned

Let’s start with what we know as true then.

We know that as of right now, Raids are the only means to getting Legendary Armor.

We know that given the whole Legendary Weapon ‘suspension’ that the prospect of new Legendary rewards are very likely on the back-burner until future notice in exchange for new content. This is an assumption however…

We know that Forsaken Thicket is by far the hardest PvE content in game or at the very least that is its intended purpose. There are a considerable amount of players having issues downing even Vale Guardian, however there are also a striking amount of players going through with no issue, even so far as to come up with self-imposed challenges or strategies like Full Nomads Tempests VG or no Updraft Gorseval. In fact, very recently a guild group had done Vale Guardian with 3g or under gear!

And we finally know that there are players who like them, players who do not, and players who do not care either way, its content. Absolutely no one but Arenanet can know the numbers, and we as players can be critical of the dev acknowledgements since they have a bias. That’s perfectly fine.

So the next thing that comes after all of this is, is what we have now fair?

This is one of the biggest problems we keep bickering about, we all have a voice in this (and we have spoken quite a bit) but what we have to ask is if we are letting our own bias interfere with our judgment here. Ignore the fact that Legendary Armor is locked behind the hardest PvE content right now, let’s look for other instances of where and why such a decision was made. Does locking Legendary Armor behind difficult content make sense? Has there been other instances of high quality skins being put behind some difficult barrier? Have those same rewards been ‘fair’ and if they were, why were they fair if compared to Legendary Armor in raids?

The main point those who want the same Legendary Armor outside of raids make is that there are other gated rewards such as say Auric Weapons or Leyline armor that do have a fairly decent time-gate, but can be accessible through say SPvP or an alternative method. Alternative means of acquisition means that players aren’t funneled into doing only a single kind of content for the reward they want. That’s a fair point to make.

The counter-point made is that because Legendary Armor is locked behind as of right now, this first raid, in which requires repeat kills and attempts, in exchange for a time-gate (at least once they release the final wing anyways…) there’s a skill gate instead, as if you are skilled enough you can spend only a few hours a week downing all the bosses easily rather than do dozens of hours in Auric Basin farming Slivers (now nerfed…). This too is a fair point, asking for something of a skill-gate rather than a time-gate is completely normal.

What becomes problematic is what both those ‘gates’ mean and how they affect the reward. This is the biggest division we have and the crux of many of the back and forth.

When you put something behind a time-gate, regardless of how well you play you will eventually get the item eventually. When you put something behind a skill-gate, you set a certain threshold you want the player to be at before they can get the reward, and everything else below that is no progress. This is at least, the ideal for both cases. You can expand your arguments from here and state that time-gating rewards is more inclusive for everyone while skill-gating is exclusive. Which motivates players more, etc.

Those for more universal methods for Legendary Armor want more time-gate, those against see a time-gate as invalidating the skill-gate, as in why bother trying harder for something if everyone can get it at some point? The path of least resistance is correct in this regard, if one could earn Ad Infinitum killing Mai Trin 50 a couple times rather than a single Mai Trin 100 (a completely different and harder encounter), even the most hard-core fractal runner would do so, and ignore the final fractal all together. After all, we are all playing a MMO, why bother pushing yourself?

That last line is a main fear for a majority of players who view rewards not just as skins but how they are obtained. It is the reason new Magumma Legendaries could not be sold on the TP compared to the first legendaries, it is also the reason why HoT maps have more containers in them, the players see rewards versus their acquisition and their cost and want their own balance for them. By this progression did we arrive at now Legendary Content locked behind the first ever Raid for GW2. I believe it is fair enough to say that we all have had a contribution towards reaching a point where rewards like Legendaries would be taken from the trading post and pushed into the ends of certain content. If everyone was content with how the game was, rewards-wise, from launch we would have all the new rewards earned just like how we did years ago. It’s changed considerably. So rather than take a standpoint of saying one side is fair versus another, I think it’s more likely to believe that the rewards are fair because of how every single update has pushed Arenanet down this road to this moment.

Finally, is this necessary?

Would it be fair to request a continued change to this? Yes. It’s how we got here, might as well ask for rewards to be more universal or exclusive or whatever. But we reached this point progressing from a system that was ultimately more inclusive for everyone. We literally had feedback stating that it was too easy to get some rewards, and cries for unique incentives for new content were being made. This is why the Shatterer has a new backpiece, why Tequatl has those caches that never drop for me- erm I mean HE HAS NEAT TREASURE. We created a system that has the more common skins being very inclusive to different branches of content have different unique rewards.

And apparently now is the time we have issues. Just with Legendary Armor. Which…if you were to look at other Legendary Equipment, there are ways to make that quality equipment in at least one other branch of the game elsewhere. I think it is very fair and necessary for a kind of Legendary Armor to be obtainable in a content outside of Raids. However just like the differences between Astralaria and Frostfang, or Ad Infinitum and The Ascension, this new Legendary Armor would have to be different than the Envoy coming out in Forsaken Thicket.

That is my stance Gaile, I hope it helps!

Gokil.2543:

This would be sad if it wasn’t also hilarious.

Taken from reddit:

[–]manny2494 St Platano.9271
How does ANet find out that another person was using one of the team member’s accounts?

[–]Joshua_Davis Grouch
I can’t get into the specifics, unfortunately.
That said, planning a scheme such as this entirely through in-game chat is generally not advised.

That’s just too much. I need a moment to breathe.

Hypairion.9210:

The last topic on this subject was closed because all the protagonists were saying the same arguments over and over…since it will be the same here, and since no new argument will be made, can a mod lock this topic ?
Thx in advance.

Yes please.

Novuake.2691:

For those wondering about a better build and one that actually is strong in duels, sucks in teamfights for though, but that goes for warrior period.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQRApe8fnMdAtkilkCWhAEliFjADZEsCWeGBgNYO7d4ucfuA-TZBHABA8AAsvMwQ7PUwBBQgzAAA

Is a very good farpoint pusher.

Every warrior worth half of their mettle knows of that ‘Wildfire’ variant.

Now question, how am I going to explain why I am not playing either a Thief or a Mesmer who can move between two points quicker, and thus actually create some opportunities at most likely mid to outnumber the other side.

And the other question is that if that were strictly a 1v1 build, intent on killing the opponent as quickly as possible on said point, how many builds out there as of this last season were capable of fighting it evenly so the opposing team didn’t have to waste their time sending a +1 when the warrior isn’t decapping his opponent?

Let me know.

Novuake.2691:

It was cancerous design. Now warriors have to actually play a build that can contribute to the team. Thanks ANET.

…Somehow I get a feeling you haven’t played a warrior since HoT launched.

Let’s hope the speculative ‘Hambow’ builds out there could be a solution, otherwise I suppose I’ll have to deal with three of the official league seasons where my main is the lowest tier.

I remember my very first time stepping into HoT. Yes, there were deaths, and I was getting tired of dying. So I decided to play a bit better, recognize that red target above my head is an incoming Sniper line, recognize which mobs are a high priority to kill, etc.

I don’t die nearly as much as I used to. Who knew?

Wait what?

Pretty sure there’s less legendaries this season, why do you think there’s been a constant stream of ‘Stuck in Ruby/Diamond’ threads on a daily basis?

Whereas last season the majority of the complaints were about how bland and boring it was to play in an immortal bunker meta. Pretty sure I can look and find couple of ‘Chrono = Free Legend’ threads somewhere.

You had quite a few matches in that defeat streak that were under 100 points.

Honestly, I know it kind of sucks being on the brink of hitting Diamond, but you had some close matches, that’s the kind of thing you should be thankful for.

That 500-490 I would say was probably down to 2 kills rather than rotations. I crave those matches in Legend.

Salamander.2504:

BeepBoopBop.5403:

Edit: and just adding necro is THE WORST class to do this. I get the harass far strategy. I don’t get why the slowest moving and least peelable class would do it.

^

Pretty much.

I probably wouldn’t have gone for the throat immediately, might be just me but I would have suggested and pinged him to go mid reminding him he is too slow to go far constantly.

If he still did it, I will likely work around it but call him out at the end of the game for the poor (or lack of) rotation. Maybe he’ll learn next game, who knows?

And people wonder why I play Condi.

They took over Warrior spot.

In other words, they took me jerb!

I really wanted to go back and respond to the arguments earlier from my discussion a few pages back.

But I realized this thread reached a sort of impasse, and now is pointless drivel.

There’s about zero chance people are going to flip their positions regardless of the reasoning thrown out by either side, there’s just too big of a divide on how rewards should be treated in this game. Metaphors get thrown out like candy, people shout out against ad homenim, throw out definitions…

I just can’t. It’s just another repeat of a discussion months ago, and we continue to talk while in reality Arenanet probably knows a heck of a lot more about how rewards should be doled out. Maybe they will make an easy mode, maybe they won’t, maybe they will never make another legendary armor set, who knows honestly.

They have the metrics, they will know where to go if Raids are either good or bad for the health of the game.

Right now, I think there’s no longer any merit to this discussion at all. Can’t believe I baited myself back into this conversation when I said I wouldn’t back then. Another pointless circular argument.

Going to actually play the game now. Good luck.

STIHL.2489:

I want you to read this for a moment. Take some time to process your own words. And then think about what you said about players not liking the new content.

Certainly.

STIHL.2489:

You see, as you so clearly put out, the goal of an MMO is to continue, to always have that next content patch/expansion, to keep the game fresh and keep players coming back.

Yes, to avoid having the game get stale and lose player retention, the game must continue to evolve and build on what it has.

STIHL.2489:

Now we could get into a discussion about projected ROI and investments, but long story short, if, for example, Anet made around 2 bauble bubbles of Profit off the Expansion, they would be excited to invest more into the next expansion, with hopefully a equal to, or even greater return. Now, if their numbers overall are growing, which is likely the case due to the Main game becoming F2P, they could invest more Bauble Bubbles into the Next Expansion then they have into this current one.

For the sake of the argument, let’s say this is true.

STIHL.2489:

However, there is a small problem (That almost every MMO company learned one way or another) If players not enjoying the content, they will not buy more of it. It’s not simply that will stop playing, it’s that they don’t see the point to go to the next step of the game, if they did not enjoy the previous step.

Halt. You are confusing something here and you sort of made a leap from a previous point. As you said if projections were true, then GW2 HoT as a success doesn’t having this ‘small problem’ existing in the first place. Or if it did exist, a very small segment of the populace would be vocal enough and perhaps leave due to it, not significant enough to warrant changing anything.

But I assume you wanted to deviate at this juncture from your assumption of success, let’s go with that then.

STIHL.2489:

Allow me to explain,on this topic alone, I see how many people left WoW, because they were not enjoying how much a “cake walk” many of the raids and dungeons were. Now pause and ponder that. They were doing the content, they were farming the content, and it was well within their ability to complete it. They were simply not having fun, so they stopped buying it.

Another pause here, because this point is awkward from your stance. I ask of you to re-read what you wrote here, since you just indicated that players left WoW because PvE content was ‘too-easy’ and putting it on farm. …Did you catch it?

If you hadn’t, you validated my point where if you don’t continue to create newer mechanics that through their very nature increase the difficulty which prevents staleness, you get exactly what those players complained about WoW about. Farm Status, they were not happy, they were not having fun.

STIHL.2489:

Do you think that does not happen to everyone? Do you think anyone sticks around for content they don’t enjoy? Do you think anyone invests money into a game they don’t find fun, engaging and enjoyable?

They will stick around for the content they CAN enjoy, if a game offered too little of what they wanted then they certainly have a right to want to leave. …Then you also have to consider that 1) GW2 is not a subscription game, and 2) There is always the prospect of future content giving more of the content they enjoy back again. Arenanet has set themselves up in a cozy position with this.

STIHL.2489:

I don’t know. Maybe you do.

Trust me, if I actually had things MY way…we would be getting an SAB expansion.

STIHL.2489:

I hope Anet is not making a mistake with this, and I would love to see them continue their great game. But every move has to be a smart move, it’s not enough to simply make content, it needs to engage the player, if they don’t enjoy something and do it for a reward, you can pretty much sign the “burn out” receipt for that player.

Again, I believe they know this, and given how they were seemingly surprised about the quantity of players raiding, how well the SPvP league system brought players into SPvP of all things (think the number was a 135% increase in population? More than double?!), Arenanet has some good ideas on how to keep different groups active.

STIHL.2489:

Anyone that players games knows that.

Why do you think you’re here, and not still playing your previous MMO?

Because RL issues took me away from hardcore raiding. And because despite all these supposed ‘issues’ with GW2 this game is still easily one of the best MMOs out there, and the original OP of this thread discussing how ‘Wildstar’ was a failure ergo GW2 must be going down the same path was nothing more than hyperbole and outright criticism without support.

…Have you seen those ‘Raid Training’ initiatives going on? NA started it but it has picked up traction in the EU as well. I have NEVER SEEN such an overwhelmingly positive support for training for raids even back in my WoW days! Those are the kinds of things I absolutely love, and are exactly the kinds of things this game needs more of than just people giving up and demanding rewards elsewhere.

It’ll die out no faster or slower than more difficult content. Content being more difficult does not mean that most people will play it more. If anything, it will result in less overall play, because some players will try it, realize it is beyond their capabilities, and give up entirely, as was the case with a lot of HoT content for a lot of players.

HoT PvE content was not the biggest drawback for player retention. WvW suffered the most, with massive sweeping changes without any meaningful rewards added. Players were not leaving HoT in droves, some avoided the new expansion all together, others joined up with groups to comb VB and attempt the once thought ‘impossible’ meta events.

Turned out when players started working together they could get stuff done once thought impossible, get their rewards, and those who craved a bigger challenge got something to sate them, those who might have disliked it at first now enjoy it, and those who still hate the new maps get their rewards and barely go back there unless needed. As long as the content is rewarding you, regardless of your feelings, and getting you to play it, it is doing its job. It doesn’t get more simple than this given just how many different kinds of players are in this game.

Now for you, harder content might encourage you to play it more, but that is a personal factor on your part, do not project it onto the community at large. They can and should provide some harder content along the way, because some people do enjoy that, but it should not be the only new content added, it should not be assumed that it is content every player is expected to eventually do, and players should not be punished for not taking part in it by not having access to goals that they desire.

I am not projecting, they provided harder content like I hoped, the content did not need to be liked by all, it simply needs to be there with the carrot dangling waiting to be snatched by those willing to do it. Not you or your personal feeling about this reward should convince it to be accessible elsewhere.

Nobody is saying “with the difficulty of a wild boar,” but once a reasonable level of difficulty is attained, one which the majority of the community is comfortable with, you don’t have to constantly raise that bar, because each time you do, you’re leaving players on the other side of it.

We have had a reasonable and steady increase in difficulty for years since Core launched. HoT took a bigger step, they can hold the difficulty of future content at that level for a while until the playerbase once again gets better. What is disturbing is this constant will to regress backwards for future content.

The ideas themselves are the same either way. I mean, if you run out of ideas generating content that is the same difficulty, then you will just as quickly run out of ideas while ramping the difficulty. Adding difficulty does not make the content new or interesting, it just makes it harder. You still need the same amount of ideas either way.

Wrong. Increasing the difficulty is a natural side-effect of newer inventive mechanics. If Vale Guardian’s Green Circle does ignorable damage yet still carries that same unique mechanic of standing inside of it to completely wipe out the damage, does that make it an equally interesting mechanic than it’s current iteration of doing a massive nuke, potentially downing you? NO. It does not, that’s exactly my point, good future content with new ideas for mechanics should naturally cause an increase in difficulty.

And yet if they really want the reward that is ONLY attached to a specific type of content, then they are left with only two options, continue doing that content that they hate, or never get that reward, and neither of those outcomes is a happy one. Why not include a happy outcome too?

Because their happiness will come at a cost of another. Not a single suggestion you have made has accounted for the damage to other players’ happiness when you trivialize their rewards by offering them elsewhere in an activity that very likely will be an easier alternative. Their reward for their efforts in content they might have liked, will be impossible to prove to their friends and others that they received it doing something harder than other content. But again, I know you don’t have this viewpoint and you have demonized players who think like this.

But again, if the reward they get is not a reward they want then it isn’t really a reward, it’s junk. Rewards are not fungible, you cannot say “you can’t get Skin A through the activity you want to do, but you can get Skin B, so it’s fair.” If Skin a is the one you want, and Skin b is one you couldn’t care less about, then that is an entirely pointless argument. What matters is that you get the thing you actually WANT, not that you get “something.”

One man’s trash is another man’s treasure. Yes, you might absolutely abhor say…the Chak skins by doing that content you enjoy (if you somehow like Tangled Depths). That is still a reward someone else might envy or want. And it was a carrot you didn’t care for, but the reward in content you might not enjoy immediately IS the carrot meant for you. There are zero issues for wanting something you have to work towards.

That’s an abuse of the reward system that ultimately benefits no one-.

IT BENEFITS EVERYONE. It gets you to play, it gets you to work with others, sometimes it gets you to work alone. What matters most is if you are willing to want it enough to do the content, if you decide that the reward is not worth the content, then that’s your choice, you made the call and you clearly did not want the reward enough. That is the difference between GW2 and other MMOs, you have an actual choice here. YOU decide what you want to do at YOUR OWN PACE. The game isn’t going ahead of you, the current Raid should stay at the current difficulty for the rest of GW2’s life, it will still be there when the 20th expansion where we fight Zhaitan’s 4th return with Scarlet the reborn Kralkatorrik Minion. This game is quite flexible enough, it does not need to change a working reward system to suit your needs, it can offer Legendary Armor outside of raids, that’s completely acceptable by me and a lot of people here. Just not the armor assigned to Forsaken Thicket.

Game developers should never want you to be doing tasks you find unpleasant, that is a representation of them failing at their job.

It’s a really good thing that there are tasks every player can enjoy then. Arenanet is doing a good job and should keep it up. They learned already that having a reward with multiple methods of acquisition was a terrible idea, after all the Original Legendary Weapons they regret being made available on the Trading Post. And despite the debacle about not getting the next 12 weapons any time soon, the clear journey for the new Magumma Legendaries is a perfect example of a reward done right.

True. I love new and different content. Though some have seemed to imply that “new” has to mean “harder,” which of course is not true. You can have new content that is of equal challenge and similar style to older content, as long as people enjoy the older content, they will enjoy the new options of the new content.

I disagree, new content that offers a similar challenge and similar style to old content will die out fast. You can dress up the content as nicely as you want but if you are fighting a new imposing mob with the difficult of a wild boar, that appeal will die out extremely fast. In fact it will beg into question why there wasn’t more done? There’s only so much you can do before the only way to appease players is to ramp up the difficulty.

If you have difficulty convincing players to take on harder content, then apparently harder content is not what they want to do. Just focus on creating new content that is of comparable difficulty to the previous content, just offering new and unique experiences.

You will run out of ideas quickly on creating new and unique experiences when the content itself is just similar to what you are used to. Steadily ramping up the difficulty is a natural progression to prevent staleness, creating new mechanics that are detrimental if you do not do them successfully rather than being ignored are how you engage the player and prevent staleness.

But also, what good does it do to get players to spend countless hours doing activities even after they know full well they do not enjoy those activities? Who benefits from them not enjoying their time in your game? Your theory assumes that every player who tries the new content will enjoy that new content, but how do you account for the players who will not enjoy it?

They do not have to. If ALL of the new content were strictly put into a certain activity that not everyone can enjoy, you would have a point here. This is part of why the content drought is a priority for arenanet and why they had to suspend Legendaries.

BUT, when you release a LOT of content that branches across DIFFERENT activities with DIFFERENT rewards, everyone can be entertained and get something they may or may not like but are rewarded for doing so anyways. There’s absolutely no reason to jeopardize the rewards of other activities because a group of players who like one particular content want all the other activity rewards in their own. In fact, the carrot on the stick is actually intended for those players who might dislike an activity to spend hours in it to get their reward. When they complete it finally, sometimes they might have regretted those hours, sometimes they might surprise themselves and actually like the content. Either way, they will be satisfied on getting what they wanted in the end.

Ironically, the current reward system you want to defy Ohoni was intentionally made for players like yourself.

MMOs are an entirely different beast from any normal game you might play. GW2 is certainly no exception even at its launch, although it did a terrific job at splitting itself away from the normal MMO selfish paradigms of MMOs before it, with promotions of working together towards objectives and individualized loot tables rather than competing with one another. However it still carries the same goals an MMO must have to be successful, it needs to retain players by producing content and rewards, and create a business through attracting new players and producing purchasable content in game.

My focus however, is on the first pivotal point of creating content to retain players. How do you retain players in an MMO? When you play any other game, from board games to even video game RPGs where you can sink hundreds of hours into, at some point that game ends. There’s a finale, a true end-game where once you have reached it you have finished the game it is done. An MMO does not have this luxury, it needs to continue to create content to retain players, and it needs this content to not be the same content that players have grown accustomed to. GW2 has to avoid becoming stale. Imagine how easy a job it would be if once you logged out for the day of playing GW2, freshly creating that character the very next day it was wiped clean, gone. Building a game around just a day of playing is simple enough, building one that keeps content fresh, or layers onto it is a far harsher issue.

So then we have to discuss what I meant by creating new content that is not the same as the old content, I believe you all know what I speak of. This can come in the form of something completely new to the game (SAB), to something that adds a couple levels of challenge over the core game (TA Aether, Silverwastes, to HoT), or even slightly adjusting how the player in question plays the game, giving them more options (Elite Specializations, balancing). Simply creating a new zone with new creatures that look amazing, but are ultimately simple to fight like previous content was, would hinder retaining players. The bigger the change or deviation from the normal content, the longer the new content retains the players. However there is also a balance, as some players might find the change too radical, and completely different from their expectations. Why do something that might be harder if there’s nothing to gain?

Rewards.

GW2 took away the constant vertical progression ladder and made instead a horizontal ‘Fashion Wars’ where the focus on getting the best stats in game was minor compared to getting that particular weapon or armor piece. We all crave implicitly the carrot at the end of the string, in any content we do. We all want to stand out, and maybe rarely get the occasional whisper from a complete stranger who noticed and asked where you got those shoulders from. Regardless, part of the allure in GW2 is that with the continued delivery of content there will be new rewards. If you are able to do something completely new, you can get something totally awesome, or ugly, it doesn’t matter you got SOMETHING!

It is with these very concepts that now there is a cry for having ‘new rewards’ in old content. ….What good will this do? How logical is it to take away a pretty big part of the incentive to try something new in the game that is completely out of your comfort zone, that you may or may not like, and put it someplace that might keep you complacent for now until the old content grows stale since time does this. Because once again, MMOs do not have the luxury of ending (Well nearly all of them) and a game that doesn’t end means there is no victor or loser, why bother ‘playing’ past the point of it being fun?

Having the mentality that an MMO can create new content without justifying a new reward for it is about the equivalent of asking a football enthusiast to really try playing football with a golf-club strapped to their leg. It could hold a weird entertainment for a time, but toss that enthusiast signed autographs of his favorite players every week he does this and we have a great funny youtube video folks. You just cannot get away with rewardless content, and if that enthusiast found out his hard effort was pointless since one of his friends was getting those same autographs by playing regular football you know heads will come off. I hate using metaphors here given how many have come up, but it often finds to be the best way to explain to everyone.

Feel free to name a game that can get away with adding something new that either slightly changes the rules, to almost completely changing how you play, that never ends, that ISN’T an MMO and does NOT need to give a reward for it. Otherwise, you can take your ‘personal’ game reward mentality out of here. It does not belong in GW2 or any MMO, it is not healthy at all for any party. It is truly the selfish position here.

Torolan.5816:

Hypairion.9210:

you won’t have it because you refuse to adapt and put some effort in raid, that’s all. And since it’s Anet decision, i guess they were thinking that legendary armors were a proper reward for challenging pve content, aka raid, and that people who mastered raid would deserve legendary armor. How is it unfair? we play the same game after all. The difference is that some people don’t mind putting effort in raiding, with countless wipes, changing stuff, buying expensive foods etc, while others want to do nothing and have the reward. Who do you think deserve the reward? the lazy one or the worker? I have the answer for you, if you want…

Here you really lost me.
GW2 is a game. Not a exercise, not a job, not a sports club. A game. I said it when the fractal backpiece was introduced for Fractals only, I said it when the backpiece for PvP was announced, I said it for legendary armor:
Gating content behind game modes is plain and simple wrong and bad for the game. It breeds exactly the discussions we are having here right now.

I know that many people think that people are looking up with envy and want on your efforts, but I stand on the firm believe that nobody remembers the name of your toon after he has passed them in Lions arch with your Eternal title and your grinded Astralaria. So the number of people that maybe care for that is in your closest group, aka your raiding team and your guild, and a few people that write you PMs about how that looks on you.

Regarding the question who deserves content X more, I would be with you if this was one of the activities I mentioned above, aka work, sport, exercise. I believe that first and foremost effort and dedication by playing the game should be rewarded in a game, not skill or reflexes and effort for builds which is a non-game activity anyway in my mind. Skills and reflexes should net you more, but a less skilled person should not be forced to go out emptyhanded off anything.

tl:dr Gating is wrong, and nobody cares if you have the Eternal title or Astralaria.

Here’s the big thing, this is extremely important.

You can’t think of an MMO like just another game. You are correct that in general games like Call of Duty, or a board game like monopoly, or a casual game of football once you win that’s it. No one cares if you beat everyone once or got a really good score.

An MMO however does foster some long-term rewards for playing, treating it like every other kind of game out there is going to naturally give you a bad time. Reward structures in all MMOs have to give short-term rewards, and long-term rewards to encourage you to play. To encourage you to improve at a certain area and eventually get the reward you do not see everyone else have. This goes back years of MMO reward structure as back then MMOs needed to keep players around to make money, regardless of how little you think of other players and what they have on their person, there will always be someone else who does care.

In fact, the biggest reason we are having these conversations now rather than years ago is because a certain population this wonderful game attracted is under the presumption that they can treat this game like a normal game of kickball or some trivial activity. It’s not quite that simple for a myriad of reasons. I’ll follow up on this more later after work, but ultimately creating rewards divided into content sections is actually healthier for the game and population than catering all the rewards for everyone’s interests.

Ohoni.6057:

And I’m fine with that, so long as you don’t try to use it as a reason to restrict rewards from people who want them.

If a player chooses not to try the content to get the appropriate reward, it is not a restriction on the content but something the player chooses for themselves. You can stop twisting this on the content and look at the player for this fault.

The best thing Arenanet can do with such a diverse playerbase with different interests is make similar rewards available across different content types, put Legendary Armor outside raids, maybe even add another Legendary Backpack somewhere other than Fractals and SPvP.

Finally, and this is important:

The systems I favor would keep players coming back MORE than any other, since it would take as long, or longer, to earn anything, but they could do so playing whatever content they prefer, rather than feeling like they have to be doing X or Y or else they are wasting their time. Players should not feel led around the node by whatever rewards are assigned to specific content. They should choose content entirely based on what they want to do with their time, and then rewards should flow appropriately from that choice.

There would still be carrots, you could just choose where you get those carrots.

That is unfortunately not how carrot on a stick works (Although to be fair we all haven’t been using the idiom correctly since it relates to never actually delivering the reward at the end, GW2 does since we get a reward for doing unique content).

You certainly won’t convince players to play the content they might enjoy if there’s an easier route to it. A raider will absolutely put raids on the last of his priority list if it turns out gathering mats for crafting is easier, WvWers will likely play WvW but get disgusted about how little or no progress they are getting for so and so reward when something easier is out there. Players will leave due to the imbalance of rewards, it is the eternal struggle between setting up a big enough carrot at one end and ensuring the path of least resistance is not remotely impactful enough to take.

I believe your reward structure would be terrific for the short-term, and eventually kill off GW2 permanently in the not-too-immediate future if implemented today, given how easily it would hemorrhage players who simply hate how they have no real reason to play a game-mode without a true carrot if everything can be earned everywhere else. Because once again, MMO reward structure is not the same as every other game genre out there.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

Which of these two views on rewards is healthier for an MMO? Would an MMO last long if all future content could have those new rewards offered by something in previous and known content? Would spending time and resources on drafting up an ‘easier version’ or an ‘easier content type’ be worthwhile in keeping veterans interested in that mode around?

That depends on for whom the said MMO is for. In games like gw2, where not only new players, but also the veterans are mostly casual? Yes, most likely it would be worth it.

Please define casual in this regard. Actually if possible could we avoid using this term all together? There are literally threads discussing what is casual and what is not, who is more casual, can you be a casual hardcore, etc.

I want this point elaborated more. And carefully since you seem to be aware of the numbers this game has in any given game-mode.

Ohoni.6057:

No. They have no “right to prestige.” Prestige is given, not taken, and no player “owns” prestige, they are only borrowing it until such time and people decide they don’t care (which in most cases is “immediately”). If people want to feel good about themselves because they completed a raid, then good for them. If they want other people to feel good about them because they completed a raid, well there’s no value in that, that’s just pointless vainglory, and should never be used as justification for keeping items out of the hands of people who want them.

Players who earn these items aren’t showboating them in LA demanding compliments from everyone, however it is imperative that their work is not diminished when the trophy they worked so hard for is made readily available for everyone. We will eternally disagree on that last point due to how we both perceive rewards.

Ohoni.6057:

When new content is fun, people will do it because it is new and fun. You shouldn’t need to bribe people to play good content. As I’ve said, I think it’s fine to offer short term rewards as “door buster” prizes for content that they want players to try, but long term goals should be more flexible to the players’ choices.

Everything in this game gives you something. Everytime you log in, even if you log in you get a reward for doing so. An MMO is carried by a combination of good fun content with balanced rewards. MMOs carry a different standard of rewarding players than any other genre, and setting up a mechanism of rewards you would see in a single player game would make for a soon to be cancelled MMO since you can’t keep players from coming back.

Essentially, if there wasn’t a carrot on a stick, then no MMO to this date has come out with good content. None.

Ohoni.6057:

I assume that’s a rhetorical question.

Yep.

Gene Archer.8560:

Speaking as someone who has done World 1 Trib Mode at least 16 times (as I have the collection achievement), I would be okay with this happening. I want people to be in the Super Adventure Box because they enjoy it as much as I do. Not because they feel forced to in order to get access to something they want. I don’t want people to come to resent the glorious box of adventures.

If that means sacrificing my prestige, so be it.

That’s fairly humble of you, but others would disagree with wanting to ‘give up the prestige’. They have a right to ownership when they worked hard for their success.

Nevertheless, going to re-iterate my previous point here:

What it comes down to is that rewards are seen at face-value (appearance) and to what extent they are within your (or anyone else sharing this same view) reach. I see rewards, all rewards, in this game as a carrot on a stick to do that content, however easy, hard or accessible it is, and to some extent it’s appearance. Some rewards gain a kind of merit from this either through time, difficulty, or exclusivity.

Which of these two views on rewards is healthier for an MMO? Would an MMO last long if all future content could have those new rewards offered by something in previous and known content? Would spending time and resources on drafting up an ‘easier version’ or an ‘easier content type’ be worthwhile in keeping veterans interested in that mode around?

Torolan.5816:

I am not really against an easy mode raid, I would like to see the story that is involved with the raids. Although I would rather like to see Anet just make legendary armor available over more ways than raiding so that I could just forget about raids like I did with aetherpath after I completed it once.

The blatant attempt of Anet to make raids valuable really bugs me more than people showing elitist behavior, the later one I can just avoid without being grumpy.
After the recent AMA, I have some hope that MO will direct the company away from raiding again after the first raid is complete.

I would rather have more raids and fractals. I have yet to see any ‘pro-raid’ individual say Legendary Armor should stay within Raids, we have encouraged other modes having a means to reach those same stats and convenience (personally don’t see what’s so convenient about it but whatever).

We simply ask for exclusive rewards for raids, that are not trivialized by an easier means of obtaining them much like many other instances of content doing so as well. That is it, that is all we ask for. Having those exclusive rewards earned in an ‘easier’ or ‘alternative’ means causes them to lose merit for a lot of raiders, much like how players who might do a lot of SAB would feel terrible if say the King Toad skins were made available through a SPvP reward track, or if the Mist Hero’s Skins from WvW were suddenly capable of being purchasable through Dungeon Tokens.

Keep exclusive rewards where they belong, yet have their ‘potential power and convenience’ made available globally.

The divide Ohoni between what we are saying and what you are saying is honestly how rewards are viewed in this game. We can continue to argue back and forth, provide metaphors and the ilk. What it comes down to is that rewards are seen at face-value (appearance) and to what extent they are within your (or anyone else sharing this same view) reach. I see rewards, all rewards, in this game as a carrot on a stick to do that content, however easy, hard or accessible it is, and to some extent it’s appearance. Some rewards gain a kind of merit from this either through time, difficulty, or exclusivity.

This is why we have round-about arguments, the very basis of why we propose the arguments for and against stems from this natural divide. It’s like attempting to force Water and Oil together here…(oh another metaphor).

Anyways, I didn’t really want to touch on this thread at all, given how much I discussed this same thing multiple times months ago. I know too well no one is going to change their mind here, but I am just letting people know the very reasons why there hasn’t been any real compromise.

The basis for understanding rewards between both groups is fundamentally different. I see zero reason to continue a discussion that I know won’t change my mind on how reward structure works in an MMO nor will it alter Ohoni’s position.

No, Person A running the marathon is the testament to him doing so, and Person A is the only person who does or SHOULD care that Person A ran it. If Person A ran the marathon because he wants other people to be impressed with him then he’s just setting himself up for disappointment, medal or not.

Not true, especially given a public competition or trial. Those who are interested in the shiny medal will naturally be impressed with others having it, they will desire it. They will strive to get it. The medal is proof of what Person A did, it IS a reward for their efforts. The only time when Person A would be running a marathon for their own testament would be a PERSONAL GOAL. That is DIFFERENT, solitary, and private.

the medal loses no significance of merit under any circumstances, because it had none to begin with. It’s a piece of medal, no more or less special than any other.

It HAS significance if the only means you can obtain it were to do the marathon. It IS special because if you earn the medal, everyone acknowledges that you ran that Marathon. It is PROOF.

And I will remind you that different players are DIFFERENT, and that what one player wants is not necessarily what other people want. You clearly want a challenge treadmill, new tasks coming along that require more skill to complete. That’s fine, the game should provide those experiences for you.

I want a lot of things, I do want to see the full potential of GW2 PvE combat being brought forth. I also want more jumping puzzles, or open world maps, more new content that continues to bring me back to the game. Arenanet has done a phenomenal job branching out to a lot of different players with its content and should continue to expand on what it has now and not go back.

But don’t just assume that every player wants the same experiences you do, that every player constantly seeks out more and more difficult challenges. That is not a universal trait, it is your personal preference (shared by many in this thread). Other players might appreciate novelty, and want to have new experiences, but not necessarily more difficult ones than those they previously completed. They don’t seek to improve their gameplay, or at least don’t have that as a primary goal, they just want to experience new content, and if they do improve it’s just a side-effect of participating in content that they are enjoying.

As you said there are different players wanting to do different things. They have made it known quite well if their mode is suffering or prospering. That also means players who absolutely despise certain aspects of this game have made the personal choice to not desire the rewards for doing the content they abhor, and that’s fine. It’s a decision they made themselves.

Asking for a part of this game to be neutered for the sake of your own personal desire, rather than asking for a similar opportunity in a mode you actually enjoy is far more debilitating to the growth of this game than you realize. Furthermore, it boggles me that whenever you mention that these ‘anti-raiders’ want to experience raiding without the current difficulty that you think somehow an ‘easy-mode’ will give them that experience they so crave.

It won’t. It’s not authentic.

I think you should have the opportunity to play the sort of content you want to play, but I don’t think that the content you want to play is the content everyone should be playing. Other players are not wrong for not playing like you do.

They can go play other parts of this game. They can request Legendary Armor elsewhere, the next shiny to be in Living Story perhaps, I honestly do not care at this point. Everyone doesn’t have to play raids, but they should realize that they give up an opportunity right now to start working towards them. Who knows? Maybe they will suddenly desire to raid properly. Future is uncertain.

Ohoni.6057:

Working hard towards something is all find and good. Working hard JUST because of the medal attached, to the point that you believe someone else getting the same medal makes your accomplishments any lesser is what is entirely pathetic. If Person A completed the full marathon, he should be happy about that, not that he got a medal for doing so. If Player B also gets a medal, that should not matter to Player A at all.

The Medal is a measure of what Person A accomplished, regardless of how anyone even Person A feels about it the medal is a testament to the marathon Person A ran that no one else did. The Medal loses any significance of merit when it is earned through anything easier, nor is it equal to something greater than itself.

Every single one of your proposals is screaming out against having any sort of reward in the game having merit through difficulty. None of your ‘compromises’ can adequately reward someone who goes through the hardest trials as eventually the merit of those rewards fades with time, given that everyone else can breeze to that same reward at their own pace eventually. Yours is a position that dismisses that merit earned through doing the most difficult of tasks, and demonizes players who seek a just reward for doing something that many cannot.

I know for a fact that we have had this discourse many a time before, and I am if anything impressed that you maintained a position like this for so long. But I will still stand by what I said months ago, and that is if you do not create content that seeks to advance and progress players, and instead keeps them in a safe bubble, players will get bored and leave, why play something that stays dull. Creating an ‘easy-mode’ raid is a waste of resources, drives away the merit of the normal raid and its unique rewards, and will kill the game in that regard.

There are only two ways this can be handled in a compromised approach:

- Release Legendary Armor in another mode, perhaps a similar style to Legendary Weapons where you scour Tyria for them. The best compromise and honestly I would even say this solution is required, I see no reason for Raids to have Legendary Armor only.
- Release Legendary Armor in a new Raid that is a couple steps DOWN in difficulty (I am thinking VG difficulty would be the highest it would ever peak at) so more people become invested. Although developing easier content might frustrate raiders wanting an equal or better challenge than Forsaken Thicket, I believe there would be a bigger adoption of newer raiders who might train up in this new raid and then go back to Forsaken Thicket for a better challenge and to get that Legendary Armor they weren’t prepared for initially.

These are it, no pointless gear checks do nothing to speak of player skill or creativity, no redundant encounters that take too many resources to balance for an easier crowd.

Those two are what I believe many posters on the other side Ohoni, that we would be OK with.

I had to re-read the response to Hypothetical A.

Apparently working hard towards something that not many other people will want to do is pathetic, a waste of human tissue as it were.

Did I completely misinterpret that?

Ah, I see their play.

- Announce the postponement of Legendary Weapons.
- Release SAB on April Fools Day

If that’s the play they make….well played then.

1) Have a ‘Slubling’ Shroom available
2) Time going into down-state while mid-transformation through toggling the shroom, it puts you as Friendly to Slothasor in down-state
3) ….Rally off a Squadmate by killing them
4) Boom, you are friendly to Slothasor, his slublings, and the environment.

I was in this lovely state for about a minute last night before the Volatile Poison debuff actually applied to me even though I was friendly to Slothasor.

….If this suddenly causes waves of raiders trying to be Slothasor’s BFF, I am not liable.

Thought to let you all know.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

there were not waves of people complaining about SAB weapons

That’s actually easily understandable. Given those weapons’ unusual graphic style, the people that were interested in them were generally the same people that were interested in SAB itself. There was no disassociation of rewards from content.
Unlike Raids, in this case saying that if you weren’t interested in SAB, you weren’t interested in rewards from it was mostly true.
And as for LS, you have noticed how most of the old LS skins were, in fact, brought back as a result of players asking for them?

Agreed, the only notable SAB weapons that I ever saw the cries for were the Warhorn (you know…ugh) and the Rifle/Pistol which had a noise to them. It is still something critical to point out as those skins are literally out of reach for a lot of players. I am fairly certain they won’t take out Forsaken Thicket, that’s a zone that will stick around from here on out.

The LS items (brought back in the latest fractal update as a very rare drop, aetherized in particular) outcry died down, no one batted an eye until they brought them back, there was no constant 2 year thread about them. There’s no way we can say it was our voices that did it, the far more likely rationale was that they were brought back on a whim.

STIHL.2489:

In fact, at one time, I was under the illusion that Raids should have been more Accessible, mainly because I thought they were supposed to just be “Content” if you will “80th level Content” akin to any other content of that level range. just a 10 man 80th level Dungeon, like Honor of the Waves just with 10 people.

Can’t really think of how being level 80 and having 10 people isn’t already accessible enough…albeit without some semblance of gear and builds you won’t get too far without being godly at PvE.

STIHL.2489:

But then I paused and asked a very powerful question, one that would set my next move. See, I asked “Are Raids Supposed to be End-Game Content” and the answer was informative and eye opening.

As long as you got the whole quote-

STIHL.2489:

From the Mouth of the Developers themselves.

“Raids are 10-player, instanced, elite dungeon content that’s a challenge unlike anything we’ve previously released in Guild Wars 2.”

You missed a part. Of course you did, deliberately since you took from a fellow poster. Lemme fix the quote for you:

“Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns™, introduces the ultimate challenge: our first raid, which is made up of three distinct raid wings. Raids are 10-player, instanced, elite dungeon content that’s a challenge unlike anything we’ve previously released in Guild Wars 2. These raids are meant to put you and your teammates to the test and challenge you to grow your skills as Guild Wars 2 players. Raids are our answer to what skilled PvE players have to look forward to at endgame—the ultimate test to overcome and defeat.”

Do you know what Ultimate challenge and Ultimate test mean? It also specifically mentions end-game so…right this goes right into your next points.

STIHL.2489:

This changed everything for me. I realized my mistake, and I also realized that, their biggest flaw in this design was to allow people the Illusion they could enter with a 70th level player and have even the slimiest, most remotest chance to survive. That the reason why we are having this discussion at all, is because Anet failed to set a Hard Requirement to enter, and thus deceiving people that this is intended to be available to them.

It’s Not

There was no illusion here, it was plain as day, clear as crystal and understood so well I wondered why they needed to re-emphasize ‘Ultimate’ twice. No one is bringing their ‘F-game’ level 70 into a raid, which is considered end-game content according to the devs to give to skilled PvE players. The lack of a mentioned ‘requirement’ wasn’t because Arenanet was being lazy, there was not a need for one when you hype up the challenge to this extent. And they actually delivered on their hype (for once), Raids were actually what they said they would be.

STIHL.2489:

Nor was it ever intended, and that was their flaw.

No one got deceived by this. This is why we are actually having this discussion, people are actually a hell of a lot less skilled or just plain lazy to go into a raid. If the ultimate challenge in PvE end-game was a cake-walk, that would be more of a failed design.

STIHL.2489:

Difficulty is not enough, that just makes people bitter, that just makes people feel resentment, and that is what starts these hundreds if not in the thousands by now. Posts.

Yep, though if I may, I would wager a non-insignificant minority of these bitter/frustrated posts are made by a very few individuals.

STIHL.2489:

The flaw was they failed so say clearly “You Must Meet this Requirement To Enter”

Even IF the post were originally as you posted, I fail to see how things like ‘elite’ and ‘unlike anything we’ve previously released’ weren’t already big warning flags. Honestly, people can’t read. That’s not on the devs, that’s people being the usual.

STIHL.2489:

Had they put that in, had they made it clear that nothing short of a complete character was going to even be able to do this, there would be no illusions about what the Raid was intended to do and be.

You would have a point here if the raid was so tightly tuned that it were impossible to complete without the extra stats. It’s a darn shame that players have done it in full exotics, with less than 10 players, in different strategies (Nomad Tempest VG, no updraft Gorseval).

STIHL.2489:

It would have been easy on everyone, no one would have to feel bad about kicking someone for not being optimal, or not fully prepared, they need to have their “Bane Resist” to play this dungeon.

Following the previous point, then you have groups in full ascended who absolutely fail at the raid, who cannot master rotations or figure out mechanics if their lives depended on it. Turns out a gear check is entirely pointless thanks in part to the design of the raid.

STIHL.2489:

When they get that, then they can play.

It sets a goal for everyone, lets them know clearly if they are ready or not.

It’s a lofty ideal but carries poor implementation here. Fractals are the exact reason why gear-checks were a bad system for the game, Agony itself is proof your ‘gear-check’ concept is bad for PvE end-game health.

STIHL.2489:

Upleveling in fractals just starts topics like this: Why you kick me?

Case in point.

STIHL.2489:

Raids really needed that “Meet this Bar to Enter” to ensure everyone and anyone knew exactly what this content was, what it’s intention was, and where they stood with their ability to do it.

They really don’t.

STIHL.2489:

In the end, I firmly believe had they put in a Hard Gear Check, this topic and others like it, never would have existed. What I don’t get, is why you don’t see that as well?

They would continue to exist, people are always looking for an easy way to get rewards. It doesn’t matter.

Ohoni.6057:

I bet as soon as they announce a different set of Legendary Armor obtained anywhere else in the game the vast majority of these complaints would be gone.

Nope.

Yep, and rather than leave it at that like your one-word retort:

• Legendary Armor stat changes (fairly insignificant QoL given the rune costs) are something people are chiming in a lot for. See every single misconception argument about Legendary > Ascended.
• Purple > Pink, people will go for the shiny always. It looks better and unlike raids, can be earned in a manner that one might find more ‘in-line’ for their interests.

You going to deny these points?

Ohoni.6057:

If not, we can approach those current arguments as being selfish given years of unique content that has not been raged about and yet has done the same thing without an outcry. SAB, Queen’s Jubilee, LS1…

Just because you haven’t noticed it, does not mean that this has not been discussed.

Oh there were threads…of about maybe 4 posts deep for those kinds of things. Idle chatter, there were not waves of people complaining about SAB weapons, actually a lot of the complaints were just about SAB accessibility in general which continues to this day. Hell, think I might make another SAB thread right now, it’ll get more responses than any of the topics I mentioned, or get merged with the megathread.

Nothing remotely on the scale that is continued to be brought up here though.

I bet as soon as they announce a different set of Legendary Armor obtained anywhere else in the game the vast majority of these complaints would be gone.

If not, we can approach those current arguments as being selfish given years of unique content that has not been raged about and yet has done the same thing without an outcry. SAB, Queen’s Jubilee, LS1…

Was it all necros?

Warrior can CC stomp necros.

Scarlet’s Mechanical beasts I would say were in-between the early mordrem and HoT mordrem.

Seriously, they had some pretty nasty mechanics such as self-rezzes, condis and the champion versions were particularly nasty.

Chaith.8256:

Sykper.6583:

Nah, they need to remove Paladin, Engis too stronk.

Wouldn’t really nerf Engi, which is independently strong outside the Amulet. Marauder still does work.

Removing Mercenary Amulet would hurt Condi Mes and Condi Necro a slightly noticeable amount. I think the alternatives are definitely a tier below.

Current amulets are in an okay spot with every class’ meta build often using their own unique amulet, actually. Probably the first time where Celestial Amulet didn’t overlap a ton.

Darn it, the one time I forget to add a bit of sarcasm in my post and I get called on it…

Oh well, beat me to the punch anyways, there’s a lot of variety in what amulets are being used competitively as pointed out.

Nah, they need to remove Paladin, Engis too stronk.

Players will always take the path of least resistance to get the rewards they want.

There are almost no exceptions to this rule, it is why Silverwastes is farmed, it is why people still are not doing the ‘Map Bonuses’ unless the proper line-up of materials is set in a certain zone (we have had this twice now in Frostgorge), it is why Dungeons were gold-nerfed, albeit they went a little bit too ham on the rewards there. Better idea would have been making the tokens for each dungeon be able to be converted to T6 mats depending on the instance token. Skins or more T6 mats which isn’t quite liquid rewards but still money.

The vast majority of MMO players will take that path of least resistance for what they want. No group is outside this, not even the hardest of the hardcore raiders.

STIHL.2489:

I think before we can really discuss difficulty, first we need to establish if raids are in fact intended to be End-Game Content.

I think they are intended to be just one type of End-Game Content for PvE.

I do think Fractals make up a separate other side.

Honestly let’s be real, think of a lot of the long-term goals, don’t they are all up making Legendaries in one regard or another? From any part of the game?

NeXeD.3042:

godsie.2864:

Sykper.6583:

Hmm, this is really great stuff.

Maybe there needs to be a saving grace match that boosts your MMR if you land in a massive losing streak, that will reset your MMR to prior to the maximum you had at the time if you win, or at least give you half to step up your game.

That might help those folks in ‘Hell’, which is actually a smaller % on that report than I thought there would be. Would those numbers be accurate? Who knows, but it could at least give credit to the existence of a hell. (Heaven can also be a problem too…)

nice idea or some sort of MMR resets during the season to help those who got off to a bad start but have worked to improve

Not sure anyone should have their MMR reset. If anyone remembers it was widely thought that tanking your MMR in early divisions in season 1 was the fastest way to get to legend….. now we want to reward those people who tanked on purpose?

Exactly, it cannot be a true reset.

Actually let’s think of it this way. S1 had a nice thing going where you gained or lost pips based on how well you did versus the other team’s chance to win. I think we should bring this back…with the MMR system we had in S2. Those ‘blowout’ games you probably wouldn’t lose any pips for like we saw people did in S2.

Take the best of both seasons, improve the algorithm a bit more, and wa-la we should have a better system overall. S2 did streamline some games, but it left a small % in the dust or a free ride on the Legend Train.

There’s a lot going on behind the scenes here we don’t see. I do believe a lot of players are actually suffering in MMR hell, but we have seen threads where some of this accused players showed vids of their videos and…well, you guys more or less laid the truth-bombs on their gameplay.

Honestly, the biggest issue with S2 is that it was probably built for a much larger range of players and skill-levels in mind. Instead, we all get waves of good or bad teammates on a daily basis. Rapid amounts of winning or losing streaks because we follow our same comrades to heaven or hell.

Hmm, this is really great stuff.

Maybe there needs to be a saving grace match that boosts your MMR if you land in a massive losing streak, that will reset your MMR to prior to the maximum you had at the time if you win, or at least give you half to step up your game.

That might help those folks in ‘Hell’, which is actually a smaller % on that report than I thought there would be. Would those numbers be accurate? Who knows, but it could at least give credit to the existence of a hell. (Heaven can also be a problem too…)

KreatE.7612:

+1 for determination

Another +1 from me.

Gratz Drew!

A barrier here and there is useful in developing skill.

At some point in Diamond T6 I’ll probably have that final ‘click’ of what I am missing from being a Legend player (and a bit of luck) and make it.

That being said, we have still a couple of weeks left in the season. There’s still plenty of time if you are in high Diamond to make it to Legend.

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

Questions:

• Kyhlo’s treb:
  • Do we consider it a swing mechanic?
  • What do we think of it being up all the time?
  • Does it need to be reworked to make it fit “periodic secondary mechanics”, and if yes how would you change it?
  • Is the treb fine as is, and why?
• Would we want to have secondary mechanics that are up all the time in future maps?

Kyhlo’s treb is less than a swing mechanic, it is a rotational mechanic and I think I know why you inquired about it suddenly. I think it is imbalanced for being clunky, slow, and it creates a 1v1 break in the general flow of the map. Add another ramp to the ‘left’ of it, create two ways and you will see more play with it.

It is fine being up all the time, until destroyed.

What I would do instead of having a repair kit is put the treb on an auto-repair cycle when destroyed. Keep it dead for a period of I would say 3-5 minutes, then it comes back to life with full health. With the 2nd ramp, enemies and allies of the treb can freely reach the treb and rotate smoother to the actual objectives on the map.

With your final question, it depends on the theme and flow of the map. There is a good flow to all the current Ranked Maps that makes them viable for Conquest. You want to promote the primary objectives always over secondary. If the secondary mechanic is a game-changer you have to make it costly, Foefire does this well with the Lord being so invested in enemy base for instance.

So, if a secondary objective were something that was up all the time, I would say make it part of the overall rotational meta you want players to work with, Temple does this well with Stillness for instance although that is a periodic objective but I hope you understand what I mean by that.

If a secondary objective were periodic, at very certain intervals, it needs to be off the beaten path, and depending on its frequency and effect it could be a fair Swing mechanic. I can see Skyhammer being made into this quite well.

Thiefz.3695:

I think the league reward structure needs to change and here is why:

If I get to Ruby and I can’t make it out, the system has said that this is where I belong in terms of skill. If I have already completed the achievements I can get for the season, there is now no difference between ranked and unranked. I have basically “capped” my reward progression. So how do we keep people playing in rank for reward IF that is their incentive rather than just playing for fun?

1. Reward track progress boost per tier of play
Reward people in each tier with a multiplier for getting through the reward tracks faster. So Amber would be a 1x multiplier, Emerald would be a 1.25, Sapphire would be a 1.50, Ruby would be 1.75, and Diamond would be 2x multiplier. You can tweak the numbers but this would mean that you would complete reward tracks faster based when playing ranked over unranked.

I like it, but let’s not have the scaling go too far ahead. Off-season unranked will give the impression of being substantially less rewarding. I am thinking more 10% rather than 25% increments..

Thiefz.3695:

2. Allow shards of glory to purchase non HoT ascended weapon chests. Make it high like 5k or something. That way you can farm ranked for shards and since ascended items are account bound, you don’t mess up the Trading Post

Be careful with this, Shards of Glory can be traded on the TP, there will be a noticeable effect. Even 5000 shards would be immensely cheaper now to purchase, so they will spike considerably and since they are involved in Legendary Creation…you can see the impact already.

Thiefz.3695:

3. Introduce 3 legendary reward tracks that you can unlock each time you hit a Legendary rank. So you hit Legend x1, you get one unlock. You hit legend x2, you have another unlock. You can make one the Sunless reward track for Sunless weapons, you could make another the Cultural Reward track for cultural armor skins, etc. Obviously they would need to include non HoT content since you have a mix of HoT and nonHot players.

This would allow people to earn new skins that are expensive by playing the game their way and most of them are account bound so they won’t mess with the TP.

This is an AMAZING idea and you are right on all counts!. My favorite idea really, have each new SPvP season carry 2 unique legendary tracks where you can earn various normally difficult or time-consuming weapon/armor sets or even ascended accessories and provide an additional motivation for players to keep climbing to legendary! Where is my box of +1s?

Thiefz.3695:

TLDR: Increase the incentive to play ranked by making reward track grind easier, make shards of glory more useful, create legendary reward tracks that reward with some of the higher rewards from the base game.

Golf Clap Another step towards making SPvP a worthwhile horizontal progression path. Kudos to all of your ideas if they were ever implemented!

Praise Zoose!

This is actually a very worthwhile read for a majority of SPvPers.

….Actually if this starts making my games harder because the enemy learned some things I am blaming you :P

Hey if you guys get nerfed hard, we got a seat open at the bar to drink away your woes!

- Warrior

So, the 2nd boss cut toned down to make the achievement for it feasible.

I more or less think that if they wanted to encourage fighting the 2nd boss’s ‘hard mode’ where you don’t use the bees/dogs/whatever, you would have to do it that way for the Legendary Armor.

Just an opinion.