Guild Wars 2

One thing I don’t get about spirits. Warriors are perfectly fine with banners which are invincible, effect all in range. and are always active. But ranger spirits are weak, only effect one chara at a time, and have a 10 second cooldown before it can again. And people are worried of spirits being overpowered?

EvilZombie.6801:

GG holiday time, point 3 1500 range by default doesn’t break the game given with current arrow speed and damage.

1500 by default does not. But extending it past 1500 with the Eagle Eye trait could. I think that is what he was saying.

EvilZombie.6801:

whats the OUT COME ? of the interview ? it’s 03 july in asia

Look here.

I look forward to when our longbow becomes a weapon to use because it is a good weapon, not because if I want to attack over 900 range I must use it.

Also disappointed with the questions asked. Most especially the most asked for question, ‘what direction is this class going in’, was not asked. Covered some points, but avoided many important ones, especially points that are very important for PvE players.

1 – Yes. And that was kinda uncool. Bad design policy to remove options to force choices.
2 – May = most likely in this case. He can’t outright say anything, but the fact that he says it may means it will most likely come. And for ‘down the line’? This last patch was focused mostly on war and necro. Ranger is mostly likely coming in the next month or two. Hopefully the next as we are definitely in the most need of help.
3 – Completely understandable. If it breaks the game to extend the LB over 1500, then it does and would require an entire game redesign to change that.
4 – We already are forced to micro to be effective in PvE. A few more skills wouldn’t really change the skill floor. I think that is him being a bit … ignorant of PvE as he seems to only care about PvP himself.
5 – That means total weapon redesign. And the weapon needs that badly. That is a Good Thing™.
6 – That question was deftly avoided which makes me wonder what the reason for the avoidance was. It was very obvious to all of us.

You forgot the most important thing said. Splitting health pools for pets between game modes, more specifically adding more pet survivability for WvW and PvE where it is badly needed. Keeping the pet alive will do wonders for our DPS. That has the potential to massively improve the ranger’s quality of life in dungeons.

It doesn’t matter how many bows one can wield if one can’t wield them well. We want to be useful, not just a jack-of-all-trades and a master of absolutely none.

All of our fingers are crossed on that, Ramiah.

Rangers had insane AoE. Splinter Barrage builds were highly effective against groups, as were spirit spammer builds, which rangers were also highly effective with. As much as touch rangers became less useful in PvP, they remained highly powerful in PvE against groups in melee (my fave build in the last few months of the game; near unkillable). So no, I don’t agree that they are as weak as you claim, in PvE at least. I don’t know about PvP; I don’t play it.

Never once in GW1 was I ever told to change classes. I may have been asked to bring particular skills, which I pretty much always did, but I never was asked to change classes and never was kicked.

Ranger in GW2 was nerfed before launch and has only gotten weaker over time. But how they handled the class in GW1 shows that they can balance the class right.

It still is an issue as it has no warning and there are still no recourse options for us players that have been affected. I still have one max level geared chara that will never finish her storyline as it is no longer her storyline.

Einlanzer.1627:

SynfulChaot.3169:

You also shouldn’t take what is advertised as an ‘unparalleled archer’ (ANet’s words, not mine) and find it so weak with bows that our only real option for damage is melee.

I genuinely don’t find that to be the case, I think it’s a knee-jerk reaction from the community. Archery is still a very key component of the Ranger’s arsenal and both Shortbows and Longbows are at worst average as weapon sets, and no other class can use both.

Archery is, and I tend to run SB/GS, LB/GS, or SB/LB depending on the situation. But we handle the weapons worse than the other bow wielders and do less damage with them. And it’s hard to stay truly ranged as no pet can attack from full range so we can’t support our pet when in LB range.

While it is true that no other class can use both types of bow, unparalleled does not mean access. Unparalleled means unparalleled.

Definition of UNPARALLELED
: having no parallel; especially : having no equal or match
: unique in kind or quality

We are outmatched in the SB by the thief. We are outmatched in the LB by the warrior. We are not unparalleled. And that makes us archery types sad.

I don’t know what you’re talking about, Shiren. I mained a ranger in GW1 nearly from launch and always found it very powerful with a large number of viable builds. Even powerful builds that were ranger-only (Burning Arrow, Magebane Shot, Cripshot, and unkillable beastmaster builds). Of course GW1 was all about the hybrid builds and ranger excelled there as well with R/N, R/Mo, and R/Rt builds especially. Ranger was very viable and powerful in GW1 PvE. It even used to be the prime Drok’s run class, and always remained a viable Drok’s runner. So no, ranger was not as weak as you say in GW1. It was handled there well.

Einlanzer.1627:

The problem is that this game doesn’t waste class-space for archetypes that revolve around nonsensical, simplistic gamist desires like fighting with a bow all day, err day- because that’s a stupid waste of a class/trait system in an MMO.

Again, the problem is player mentality. You shouldn’t roll any class in this game expecting to get by with using nothing but a bow (or any other single weapon) 100% of the time. That’s a good thing – it means the game involves tactics, customization, and a certain amount of verisimilitude.

You also shouldn’t take what is advertised as an ‘unparalleled archer’ (ANet’s words, not mine) and find it so weak with bows that our only real option for damage is melee.

Durzlla.6295:

Rangers don’t do anything another prof can’t, end of story, they can do things better than some profs granted, like ranged DPS, hybrid builds (condi AND direct damage) etc, but nothing the ranger can do is UNIQUE to the ranger, which bums me out because I really wish we had -something-.

That’s not true. There is one thing we do that is unique. We lose a lot of DPS from something entirely out of our control. /sarcasm

That being said, I’m sticking with ranger for my main regardless.

Dante.1763:

it has gotten so bad on my server that i can hardly find a group willing to take rangers into dungeons.

The trick to finding groups as a ranger: Form the group yourself and make sure you are the one to enter the instance. That way you are less likely to be kicked and if they do while in the dungeon they are punished for it.

Why do people use the SB? Simple. It’s the ranger’s best ranged DPS weapon, outshining both the axes and the LB.

Why it is more powerful than the historically feared longbow still boggles the mind, though.

While it is true that the ranger class can be played well, with the same gear and effort, practically every other class is more effective and doesn’t risk losing 30-40% of their DPS from something out of their control.

Many of us do try new builds and to work around the class’s inherent problems, but the inherent problems are still there and still do hold us back.

The lost DPS can be restored by improvements to the pet AI and/or AoE damage reduction. Removing the pet entirely is doubtful if it will happen for one simple reason. The pet is the unique mechanic of the ranger class. We are as likely to see pets removed for combat as we are to see thief’s stealth, warrior’s burst, or necro’s Death Shroud disappear.

Now to have the option to turn the pet off at times like jumping puzzles? I do think that this should be an option but I don’t think we should gain anything from it besides from having the pet stowed.

dodgerrule.8739:

The one thing you all do not realize is that the pet is at least 40 % of your damage. If you learn to play a build involving it you can tank bosses. It just takes training, hardwork, and determination. This isn’t guild wars 1 where you stand in one spot, doing so will kill you in any fight.

I’ve been able to tank dungeons with one of my builds. I don’t sacrifice anything, if you don’t use your pet you won’t succeed in pve. The best you can do without your pet is stand in the back like a coward and fire an arrow. Try everything available to the ranger, infinite possibilities to achieve balance.

Very true. If we don’t use the pet, we are really crippling ourselves. Unfortunately there are some circumstances were the pet will die no matter how good a ranger you are (Subject Alpha and Aetherblade Retreat, I’m looking at you). The pet AI does need some work … okay, a lot of work. But removing the pet is not the only option. Fixing the mechanic will greatly improve everyone’s outlook.

Well … except those that don’t want a pet at all. ArenaNet was clear before the game even launched that ranger = pet. So if you truly want no pet … play a different class.

EDIT: Note: You here is referring to the people that want pets removed, not you dodgerrule.

dodgerrule.8739:

When they did nerfing I wasn’t affected at all because I don’t rely on just a bow.

Not necessarily accurate. They did nerf. And if you used the SB at all, you did receive a nerf. Just because it didn’t invalidate your build doesn’t mean that it didn’t affect you at all.

Bran.7425:

The update itself, until we are given additional information, has firmly set that the developers will continue to balance the professions solely within the meta of sPvP.

I will continue to hope, as will most of us I think, that they will realize that balancing around PvP only will only destroy class balance elsewhere instead of unifying the classes across game modes. We have nearly a year of evidence to back us up. We can only hope that ArenaNet realizes their folly before PvE and WvW are completely untenetable with most classes.

Buttercup.5871:

The manner in which this class has been managed over the last 10 months is baffling. Business-wise, I simply cannot get my head around it. The alarming result is that almost no one on the ranger forum has any confidence left that his/her voice will be heard.

This does seem sadly true. Especially to those of us who play WvW or PvE as we keep receiving nerfs due to ‘balancing’ PvP. We either need the skills clearly split between modes or people focusing on PvE and WvW balance because the focus on balancing around PvP only is breaking the game badly in other game modes.

yuri.2017:

It is very simple when you consider it, Ranger players did not sign up for a class that is weaker then any other. Which it is, their is nothing the player can do to stop it, If we call back our pet to save it, we lose 30-40% DPS, if the boss or champ uses a move that the PLAYER has to avoid, the pet Can Not do so, so it gets hurt or killed, thus losing 30-40% DPS, if we Kite, we lose 30-40% DPS. as pets cant hit moving targets, pets cant dodge AoE, Pets cant smartly attack targets and know to stay out of “fire” Pets will willingly run through poison, traps, flames, and all sorts of nastieness. so in the end no matter what the PLAYER does, the Ranger loses 30-40 % of their total DPS at some point in a fight, their is no other class that has so much DPS lost on a mechanic that they basically have no control over, the only way to keep the kitten pet alive is to keep it on passive. and guess what. that loses… you guessed it. 30-40% of DPS. i picked a ranger to be an expert at range. not to babysit a broken Ai that i would gladly kill off and do without. i dont need the pet. i need my DPS to be equivalent to other classes.

This is a very apt description of what is wrong with pet AI, and as a result what really hampers rangers DPS.

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

I think it’s a flaw to even assume you can draw people into WvW to begin with. Some people will enjoy PvP, some will enjoy WvW (related but not the same, and others will enjoy PvE. Some (me) like all three. My GF hates WvW though. Nothing Anet does will get her into it. It’s silly to assume you can draw one group over to another. If someone is interested they will try it out.

-snip-

I just think it’s foolish to ever believe you can draw people into WvW or spvp/tpvp. Either people will want to try it, or not. Trying to force them to mix is stupid.

And this here demonstrates the folly of putting this cache in the WvW jumping puzzle. The rest of the achievements are PvE oriented. This sole one is in WvW and the cache meta-achiev requires all caches, including this one. That makes this one WvW/PvP instead.

What motivation would they have in putting it in WvW except to draw people into WvW? To provide free kills to WvWers as some trolls have stated? That would just be cruel and were that to be the case it would cause many to lose faith in ANet. I don’t believe they are that cruel.

You yourself just stated that forcing people to mix PvE and WvW/PvP is stupid. Yet that is exactly what putting a cache into the WvW jumping puzzle is.

Shiren.9532:

Give rangers access to the hammer. A revival of the bunny thumpers. I always found it weird they were given greatswords and not hammers given that hammers were probably their best weapon in GW1 after the bow.

Hammers can carry lots of blast finishers.

Ahhhh. Bunny thumpers. If they ever did add the hammer it would confuse the ever-loving kitten out of anyone who did not play GW1. But I would welcome it. Such an entertaining build, that.

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

Actually mine was. The first time I went into WvW I got repeatedly ganked. That’s just how it is. I kind of feel bad for people trying to do it, so I’m not going to camp anything. I’m not going to tell anyone else not to though. You go into wvw, expect to get killed. Repeatedly. Until all of your armor is broken, until you want to give up. WvW is just as much psychological as it is about “skill”. If you can demoralize your opponents you have a great chance of winning.

That psychological thing doesn’t demoralize your opponents, you know. It just kittens them off. And people do remember, at the very least, what server or guild did it. It ruins servers and guilds reputations.

There is a reason many guilds in WvW and many servers have the reputations they do. People who do that kind of thing in the jumping puzzles are part of the reason for that reputation, along with similiarly childish behaviour elsewhere in WvW. I can list every server I dislike in WvW due to antics I have observed or been subjected to. Out of politeness, I will not.

Again, this is the kind of thing that will drive potential people away from joining WvW instead of showing them how enjoyable WvW can be so they want to try it out more.

Lightsbane.9012:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Lightsbane.9012:

Someone saying that obviously hasn’t played a necromancer or engineer.

Have both. Played both. They condition better and faster than a ranger.

i never said they didn’t. i wholeheartedly acknowledge ranger’s bugs and messed up mechanics. but i do recommend you take a look at the bug thread for both necro and engineer.

I’ve checked them as, as I’ve previously stated, played all classes. But that is getting off-topic.

Just to clear the air here before yet more people trying to hold the class back with their comments.

Ok. We get it. You think the class is playable. You know what? It is. It is playable. It’s just not on par with any other class in PvE and it’s near the bottom in WvW as well. Only in PvP does the class have any real competitive viability. Play the other classes. Play their meta builds (or whatever builds you fancy). Then do the same with ranger. You will find that in all game modes, we are massively outshined by most other classes.

The problem is not that we are useless. The problem is that we are at the bottom of the stack. Yes, some of us have found viable enough builds. But with the same skill level and stats most other classes are superior.

That is the argument. That is what we are trying to get past. That is the dialogue here.

Kichwas.7152:

If your pet was doing 40% of your damage, well, I just don’t know what to say to that…

That’s not what I’m saying. Rangers were designed so as that 40% of the damage is supposed to come from our pet. That is why our own damage is lower as compared to other classes. So as rangers we are pre-nerfed to we don’t do too much damage when the pet is calculated in.

Lightsbane.9012:

Someone saying that obviously hasn’t played a necromancer or engineer.

Have both. Played both. They condition better and faster than a ranger.

Kichwas.7152:

And all of the spirits give potential group buffs. People might not like them, but they are there.

Spirits are there, yes. But they are kitteningly weak version of banners that are inferior in every way.

Kichwas.7152:

I disagree with you. I find it just fine, and my numbers back me up in my experience. And the rangers I speak with in game tend to agree with me to varying degrees. On most blogs I frequent, I also find agreement.

Only here and on ‘gw guru’ do I find the complaints.

You can call that holding back all you want. I see nothing to hold back, and nothing but short-sightedness in ‘have to have a hunter build or highway’ thinking.

Rangers should not be forced into bunker melee as their only viable build. We should have options. We honestly have few. It’s good that you can get by. I can as well. Most of us that still play ranger can. We just want some improvement. Improvement that even the main balance dev has outright stated that we need.

Kichwas.7152:

I actually get incredibly good use out of my pets in PvE as a distraction and condition pressure. Note that I write pets, not pet.
- If I see a ranger using the same pet for a whole battle, I feel that’s someone not maximizing their potential.
I constantly swap pets as a way to draw out adds or draw in a boss to where I want them, or to take pressure off of teammates, and of course, if I get low I will pull my pet in in case I go down for a quick self revive.

You just can’t throw the pet out there and have it fight battles for you. You need to keep two of them active – swapping them around often. I prefer two ranged devourers… and this is actually a FLAW of mine. I should be using two very different pets and swapping to get specific effects. But it is easier to have two similar pets and swapping to control enemy position. Both are effective tactics and I go for the second easier one even knowing that were I to master the first I’d be better.

(My issue with the first is that you NEED to be swaping dozens of times in a fight, and if my pets were very different, I’d want to time my swaps more carefully – very easy to poorly time that. Swapping often for position, a mistake is easier to factor into things.)

You assume that all of us rangers already don’t do that. Please don’t assume stupidity on everyone’s parts. We already do do that. That is a required if we want to be slightly useful.

Those of us that are ‘complaining’ are not people who refuse to change. It is us players that are trying to bring the class more in line with the power of others instead of letting it languish as the least desired class in more than one game mode. It’s those of us that tire of being kicked from parties before we can even say ‘hello’. It’s those of us that want ranger to not be the red-headed stepchild of the classes.

Kichwas.7152:

There’s contention because many of us found our rangers MORE powerful after the patch, or found new builds that were more powerful or close in power to where they were before.

Others blinded by the rage of losing power where they imagined it was lost, have not tried to look for new builds (my harsh words might make you mad, but read theirs: several flat out refusing the idea of even trying to make a new build. Just a “shelving the class, no builds possible” fiat declaration that gets no one anywhere).

Some have, yes. Not a majority. Many are still looking for a decent build. Especially PvEers, who seem to be the biggest casualty of the patch.

Kichwas.7152:

The only nerf in the patch was to pet damage for about 3/4ths of the pets and shortbow range.
- one of these is trivial because pets were already only a small part of damage (*). The other is a playstyle change: telling rangers on the shortbow that their weapon is meant for medium distance, and the other bow is for long distance.

That pet DPS was taken without giving anything back to the ranger in return. And as pets are calculated at 40% of all ranger damage, by your own percentage (3/4) rangers received a 10% DPS nerf. You may call pets a small part of the damage, but us rangers are already taking a big hit just for having a pet.

And for the SB range reduction? For us rangers running the Piercing Arrows trait, that hit our DPS as even when we are closer to the enemy than 900, the arrows could still pierce enemies on the far side. The way to get us to use a weapon is by giving us a reason to, not by taking away any other option. The SB is still a more damaging weapon than the LB, even after the LB buff. That still seems wrong as in reality a LB is a much deadlier weapon.

Kichwas.7152:

And shortbow itself came out ahead if you liked standing closer in – which most dungeons and sPvP maps require because of walls anyway… Only in WvW is it a significant change, and for that: adapt or use longbow. The 14% damage boost to 3 shortbow skills was a MAJOR buff because unlike pet damage that’s a core damage buff, and it made 3 skills equal to the auto-attack, but with different conditions: opening up a lot more options in play.

The SB damage increases are so minimal so to be practically unnoticable in combat (in PvE, at least). The potential damage loss of 300ft of Piercing Arrows is quite noticable.

As for the LB? Not even counting the bleeds, the SB does more damage than the LB. Yes, we can still use the LB at 1200. No, the LB still does less damage than the SB would have at that range. That didn’t open options. That removed options and forced LB use despite it being an inferior weapon.

Kichwas.7152:

I’m going to tell ArenaNet that the class is fine because my experience playing it post patch on my new build tells it is more than fine. Of my 6 80s, I think its my number 2 in damage while still being my number 3 in tankyness.

By telling ANet that you think the class is fine despite it very obvious and noted shortcomings you are holding us back from improving. We are still the least wanted class in PvE, and near the bottom in PvP and WvW. If you want us to stay on bottom, then speak up all you want. If you want us to be more competetive and more viable then let us speak on how we can improve the class.

Lightsbane.9012:

you should play wvw on GoM. odds of finding a good ranger is roughly 1 in 20(especially if they’re friendly rangers for some reason) i can’t even count how many times i’ve seen rangers spam 1 with a SB on me without moving. that said, i’ve also met some incredibly good rangers. i’ll end the rantquote by saying this: ranger is indeed a class that’s deeper than half of the guild wars 2 classes. knowing it can make you, not knowing it can and will break you.

I don’t WvW much (I dislike most all forms of PvP) and I will never leave my beloved Tarnished Coast. When I do WvW I take my ele, thief, or mes as they are all far more useful with the same effort applied.

I do feel that to play ranger well it has the highest skill floor, not due to mechanics working as intended but due to the core class mechanic being borked.

swiftpaw.6397:

All this typing.. words words words.. all of them meaningless because A-Net’s not gonna listen one way or the other.

Some of us believe otherwise and we will continue to try to contribute to the good fight. I think even ArenaNet wants the class to be viable. They just don’t seem sure how. So let’s help them by giving them our constructive feedback.

No destructive feedback, please. That’ll just get these good threads shut down and ignored.

Lightsbane.9012:

a major problem with ranger is that you have new players playing as a ranger expecting it to be like WoW’s hunter.

I don’t think this is true at all. I don’t think a majority of rangers are stuck in that mentality. Most of us are playing the ranger as we want to play the GW2 ranger, not WoW’s hunter. The problem is that many of our core and required mechanics has large glaring flaws that we need to openly build around just to mitigate as much of the broken mechanic as we can (read: pet AI).

Lightsbane.9012:

and as a full condition ranger, i daresay you can pressure conditions almost as good as a necro(if only you had an epidemic right?) with longbow you can snipe and hit very hard, and this weapon was made for world vs. world.
point in fact, failing to understand the class usually creates a player that fails at playing it.(no offense to some of you) i play wvw every day and see maybe 1 good ranger out of 20. THAT is the problem.

Even a condition ranger falls far short on condition pressure than a necro or an engy, or even a sword warrior. And our longbow is actually a lower DPS weapon than our SB. They had to nerf SB distance to force us to actually use the LB.

It’s not that all of us rangers don’t understand the class. Most of us run builds to mitigate as much as we can. It’s that it seems even ArenaNet does not understand, or at least they don’t seem to understand what they want the ranger to be.

AI improvement for the ranger’s pets, or at least changing implementation to minimize the obvious pet issues: fixing AoE obliviousness/susceptibility (PvE and WvW), their inability to dodge/block heavy hits (All game modes), and their ability to hit moving targets (PvP and WvW). Or simply move some of that damage back to the ranger. Having 40% of our damage from an unreliable source forces us to build around that broken mechanic. Shifting some of it back to us and from the pet would be a significant boon if no other ideas are found.

Also more attention to the ranged weapons, mostly the SB and the LB. The SB range nerf with no ability to mitigate it though traiting was a real kick, especially as even though the LB was buffed, it’s still lower DPS than the SB. A bit more power, or traits to make them more useful, would be a major boon.

And of course, the root on sword auto-attack. No other class needs to unset auto-attack on their #1 attack to survive. Ranger should not have to either.

If this was an attempt to get PvE players to enjoy WvW, then they will find it’s having the opposite effect. I don’t know about everyone else, but from what I understand of human nature I doubt that most of these PvE players will ever even want to touch WvW again because of it.

And to all of you WvW diehards, if your first introduction to WvW was getting repeatedly ganked by experienced PvP/WvW players with PvP/WvW builds against your PvE build (very different build types, btw) I doubt you’d want to return either.

Probably the best dev for PvE rangers is Robert Hrouda as he is not only the main dungeon dev but he also mains a ranger. He understands where a ranger currently is in the PvE meta. I just wish he had the time to be a part of more of the class balance discussions as it is obvious that there is no strong voice for rangers when it comes to PvE balance.

Oh, they have ideas for balance. But balance choices are being forced on PvE and WvW players for PvP reasons. Places in which those balance choices are flat-out inappropriate. All three modes of play have very different playstyles and strategies which require different responses. By treating all the same they are doing a disservice to the class, no, to all the classes.

We’re trying to point out where these balance choices are most problematic so ANet can clearly see where the rangers see the class in all environments: PvE, WvW, and PvP.

Oidmetala.8426:

look “Uninstalling this unballanced POS build.”
a moderator have visit it.

If you look at the thread and then why the mods deleted it, you’ll see that the reason makes sense. It was not inviting any healthy dialogue. It was just a place for people to vent frustration.

If ANet didn’t care, rangers would not get buffs or nerfs. The problem is that we are getting across the board nerfs in all areas despite those nerfs being only needed in PvP.

We just need more devs to pay attention to the PvE and WvW state of the game instead of having PvE decisions forced due to PvP needs.

Faithless.5810:

Point is, criticism, and changes need to be made, I for one will not support accompany that shuns feedback good or bad, the bad helps you build a basis for what needs to be changed. A company in their shoes should be looking at WHY these people are upset and addressing the balancing issues not closing threads because they are unhealthy?

What is the point in having a forum where you can’t post your opinion on the bad balancing changes?

Thank you for posting a non-trolling post this time. ^.^

They are right to close threads that do not elicit healthy dialogue. If we have problems with the class, as most all of us do, we can discuss them peacefully and constructively. As we are doing here.

If you haven’t noticed (just look up), noone here is saying that all the changes have been good. We are actively discussing the bad balancing changes. And as long as we stay civil about it and don’t call anyone out then we can continue to discuss it and help ANet bring our favored class back to where it should be.

The update wasn’t all bad, but it did take more than it gave. It took SB range and pet damage. It gave a very minor SB damage buff and a significant LB damage buff. Unfortunately the LB buff only brought it up to in-line with the SB if you attack head-on. If you get any of the SB bleeds, the SB is still a superior weapon.

The LB should be the ranged weapon of choice for power-based rangers. It should be our hardest hitting ranged weapon that actually makes our opponents worry. Not a pitifully weak weapon that is outdone by a SB in all ways and that we only use because we want to attack at 1200 range and the option to use a SB that that range was taken from us.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

I agree with the first part of your post completely. As for perma-stowing (or my idea for unkillable, noncombatant buffing pets), I think that may be the only way to make rangers completely viable in all areas of the game. Even if they fix the pet AI (which they’ve been trying unsuccessfully to do for at least 3 years, probably longer), and the fact that pets can’t attack while moving and frequently miss moving targets, there’s the fact that pets rely primarily on health, defense and healing to survive, when the combat system in this games forces you not to. Even as a defense-oriented warrior or guardian, blocking, evasion, cc, and conditions are just as important to your survival as your health and armor. Basically, pets are trying to use GW1 combat in GW2, and that doesn’t work when every champion can take off half of its health or more in a single hit.

The game has only been out for less than a year, not the three years you are speaking of. And if you’re referring to GW1, pets were pretty awesome there. I often ran a pure beastmaster ranger in GW1, and if you did it right you pet did pretty insane unblockable damage and was unkillable. Pets in GW1 also didn’t stand mindlessly in the middle of AoE fields all the time.

Removal of pets isn’t the answer. It is an answer, but not necessarily the one that is needed. We all know the pet needs to change. But outright removal is a step I feel is unnecessary, and seems to be a step that ArenaNet is unwilling to change. That being said, if they want to keep pets they need to focus on fixing their issues as we are partially crippled with them as they currently are.

Sandpit.3467:

The problem is nobody knows what that vision is. The one that players are going on is the one that ANet hyped and published, but clearly that isn’t it.

Until ANet come out and tell us what the heck they are trying to do here then that problem just isn’t get solved. Once we know, we can decide to stay or go on that basis.

Yes. All kinds of yes. We do need to know what their vision of the ranger is so we can help them bring the ranger in line with that vision. Right now that vision seems to be to play second fiddle to everything else in PvE and WvW and to play bunker in PvP. That just doesn’t seem right.

I don’t agree, though, that we need to know what the vision is to decide to stay with the class or leave it. I, like many of you fellow rangers, want to play a ranger regardless. We need to know what it’s supposed to be to help it grow, not to know whether or not to abandon it. If you’re going to abandon it, abandon it. If you’re going to stay, stay. Don’t leave it up to the vision to decide that.

Note: Sorry for the multi-post. Dang post length limits…

stale.9785:

Spirits should be invulnerable, like warrior banners. That leaves a trait that can be remade into something else (hopefully not pet related, since we have 49 pet traits already) and allow for spirit based builds. That’s it – one change, and spirits become reasonably useful. The internal cool down needs to be addressed, but I’m not even sure Anet is aware that’s an issue.

I don’t know about invulnerable spirits. It is true that spirits are a much weaker version of warrior banners. The solution could also be as simple as it was in GW1. Increasing the range of the spirit effect by a large margin. They don’t need to be invulnerable if the ranger has the option of placing them down where they are likely to not get hit yet still be able to effect the party.

Also the internal cooldown on spirits should go. The warrior banners boost everyone all the time. Why, then, do the spirits only effect one person at a time on a percentage chance then go on cooldown and effect noone for 10 seconds. The spirit’s effects don’t even have full uptime on a single player.

Spirits have been buffed multiple times and they are still rarely run. The reason is that even after these buffs, they are still a weaker and killable warrior banner. This needs to be changed. They have tried to give us more reason to run spirits, and many of us rangers want to run them, but they are still not viable enough due to their extreme squishieness, their low range, and their purposefully kneecapped effect triggers, durations, and cooldowns. These issues get addressed and you’ll see spirit rangers again, like you did in the beta before they kneecapped them.

stale.9785:

Last issue, and it was mentioned above – our traits. Every class has 75 traits to choose from. For rangers, 49 of them revolve around the pet. Now, I figure there should be 15 pet traits (All in beastmaster line, obviously) and the rest should be related to US.

This is something that I didn’t realize until looking more at it. No other class needs to put a lot of trait points into only one tree just to make their mechanic viable. As rangers, if we don’t put points into beastmastery, our pets are quite weak. And by being forced to put many points into it, despite the lack of standout traits, we are more limited in what all we can run.

Prysin.8542:

Sure the class itself has tonns of problems, many related to pets, and makitten ues (like the illogical “obstructed” while on a flat surface bug).
Another issue of the class is that people think there is only 2-3 viable builds at all. Fact is, there is many. Some are more efficient then others, in different areas of the game.

-snip-

That being said – most of you guys are way too negative. Sure we get a nerf every patch, but that nerf usually opens new doors, doors you might not know of.

There are more than just 2-3 viable builds if you’re using a true dictionary definition, but there are only a small handful of useful builds that at least bring us close to the utility and power of most builds from other classes. And most of the really useful ones are only good in PvP or WvW. In PvE we are still at the bottom of the barrel and the class most likely to get kicked from PUGs before any words are exchanged.

Many of us either are not as negative as you think or have gotten there from seeing our favorite class fall from weak to weaker time and time again. Those of us that are still here are still rolling with the punches and trying to make the class work for us. That alone is a good thing, regardless of the tone in which we speak. It means that we still have people showing ArenaNet that we want the ranger and we want to see it restored to what it should be. A class that is not at/near the worst in all three aspects of the game.

stale.9785:

Anyone who believes pets aren’t broken are flat out wrong. Bad pathing, inability to hit mobile targets, can’t avoid AoE/high damage attacks, and there’s one whole build where they’re viable. Pets are BAD.

Inevitably, someone is going to tell me to cripple my target so my pet can hit. That’s great and all, but it shouldn’t be required for the other half of my damage to hit. Imagine if a warrior only dealt full damage to crippled foes? People would be screaming. Same with any class, aside from us.

For the pet survivability issue, your choices are to either build entirely around your pet, or accept it’s going to die, all the time. Again, if any other class faces losing half their damage whenever there were lots of AoE around, or a single high target attack, there’d be screaming. For rangers, it’s par for the course.

Solution? Lots of people (I count 1824 separate posters in the last 4 months) calling for pet removal. Outright perma-stow and fix rangers skill coefficients so we deal normal damage (normal as in not 40% weaker than everyone else, because: pet.)

Or they could add some AoE damage reduction, and extend the pet’s range of attack. (If they’re not going to allow perma-stowing, this makes the most sense)

Being forced into melee or being forced to cripple the target are temporary solutions to the problem. Not long term. I think we can all agree that having to do so just for the pet to hit is kinda bad design. This is the pet downside that plagues PvP and WvW as players move too fast for the pet AI to be able to track and hit. I would think that speeding up the pet’s attack animations and triggering would be viable. After all, enemy mob AI is smart enough to hit us when we’re moving. Why shouldn’t the pet be able to?

For pet survivability you don’t necessarily need to build around your pet. But for the pet to survive in melee with PvE bosses or survive in boss AoE fields that it is too stupid to avoid, there does need to be a fix. This is the pet downside that plagues PvE players, and to a lesser extent WvW players. AoE damage reduction (not immunity) or giving the pet the ability to recognize those deadly AoEs and run out of them would go far to remedy this issue. I think we’re all tired of seeing our pet just stand in the middle of an AoE and take it all, not even bothering to move out. >.<

Many are crying for outright removal of the pet. I don’t think that is necessary. There are many fixes without removing a cornerstone of the class. Right now ranger does equal beastmaster. That can stay, but they do need to make it so our mechanic isn’t the weakest mechanic out of bad design.

stale.9785:

Second issue is group utility. Right now, that’s limited to Healing Spring and Muddy Ground. There’s nothing else rangers bring to a fight that someone else can’t do better. The ideal solution? Fix spirits.

You have forgotten the one last great ranger utility, Signet of Renewal. So long as your pet is alive, which is most places if you micro it well, it is a full team full party condition clear. It is true that those are the only real utilities that are not selfish. Even a warrior can contribute more to group utility. More group-oriented utilities would definitely be nice.

Shall we move the discussion back to rangers and it’s current state and away from specific builds?

Not that I don’t think that we should discuss builds. I really do. But it is wildly off topic.

I see many wanting the removal of the pet. The ranger has, since reveal, been centered around the pet. That is a cornerstone of the ranger.

Is it that you want the pet removed or that you want the issues with the pet to be fixed so it doesn’t feel like a weight when it’s not behaving properly?

If you remember ranger shouts in GW1, they were godly pet buffs. My GW1 beastmaster build made my pet more tanky than a full on tank. It was nearly impossible to kill them.

Unfortunately most of the GW2 shouts just add what should be default pet functionality. The ability to tell it to move somewhere (“Guard”). The ability to protect you (“Protect Me”). Those should not be seperate skills that we need to carry with us. Our pets should be able to do this by default.

I think that “Sic ’Em” and “Search and Rescue” are the only shouts that should be kept. “Sic ’Em” is the closest to how shouts were in GW1, bringing function and boosting the pet at the same time. The cooldown is a bit too long, though. “Search and Rescue” is another useful one, but the pet should gain more protection as it is rezzing. Because the pet isn’t protected at all, that makes the ranger’s dedicated res skill one of, if not the, weakest rez skill in the game.

ExpiredLifetime.1083:

There’s one EXTREMELY simple thing that ANet can do to “fix” pets in PvE, and that’s to do what Rift did with the Rogue’s pets – hell, it would even fix them in WvW zergs, should they decide to allow the implementation of it in PvP – that’s to give pets an immunity to ground-targeted AoE. Other than the pretty red circles on the ground, a ranger can micromanage a pet in order to make it survive. The limitations of AI just don’t allow for a pet to dodge out of an incoming one shot AoE, so the next best thing was chosen. I’ve been harking this on the forums ever since beta, but no one has decided to help me pitch it; everyone has been instead trying to redesign the class.

That would help and I’d definitely be for that change. I think what I’ve read from Robert Hrouda (main dungeon dev and ranger player), though, is that they considered a limited AoE immunity for pets but found that to make them far too powerful instead of just bringing them in line with other classes. Also a basic AoE detection and avoidance would help so our pets don’t blindly stand in the red circles and at least try to get out of them would be nice.

I think very few people actually want pets removed entirely. I think we all just want something done about a very broken class mechanic that affects PvE players the most, WvW the next, and barely effects PvP.

I love running with my pet and would prefer to keep it by my side in most instances (jumping puzzles aside). To me, GW2 ranger equals pet + bow. That’s not all I run, but it’s what I prefer.

Bran.7425:

I don’t want to sound bias, but warriors in general sound like they will not be happy until their profession is an unstoppable juggernaut in all modes of play.

I don’t think that is entirely true. They may be unstoppable juggernauts in PvE, but they are iffy in WvW and weak in PvP. They do need work to their class as well. It’s just that they should probably not get those same buffs in PvE as they are already gods here.