… All-in-all, who says that my playstyle should dictate what others do? I can’t tell people not to speed-run, that’s not my place. I’m just pointing out that what dungeons have become is way off-target from your intentions, Anet. It’s resulting in this phenomenon: new players " can’t " do dungeons until they’re lv 80, which doesn’t necessarily mean that they properly learned their kitten about how to play their class. I learned a lot about how to really play from the challenges presented in the dungeons when I was near the recommended level. Players are missing out on the opportunity of doing dungeons when technically they’re “supposed to be able to.”
Players should not be feeling this pressure from the vocal elitist minority. All players should feel welcome to play the content as they reach the suggested level for the dungeon. Players should not feel obligated to be level 80 before doing content designed for lower levels.
The main reason is because the lvl 38 in group with 4 lvl 80 makes the dungeon harder for the 4. it will actually be easier to just go 4 lvl 80s rather than taking the lvl 38 thief since he would die quickly and easily anywhere in the dungeon. thus the 4 lvl 80s have to heal or rez the lvl 80 and force 3 people to do the fighting.
A good player at that level will not go down any faster than a level 80. A level 80 thief will fall to the same things that will kill a level 38 thief.
Also, before you ever switch charas in this manner for experience, make sure your group knows and is ok with it.
Eh…wy its so hard… Look. He can have only 25 trait points. That means, if this mesmer would go for focus (most effective imho). He would get put all 25 trait points in inspiration line and get: Best choice would be heal conditions on heal, warden reflection and sub trait for +15% dmg.
Now. He loses 15% dmg from 1-st trait line. He loses fury on phantoms. He loses 20% lower cd on clones. he loses 20% cd on sword. He loses 20% cd on gs.
That would be much more, then 20% dmg loss. im just trying not to overestimate traits to much.
Yes. U would say, that only my build so special, and there is some magical build, where 25 traits is enough to faceroll everything. Show it to me pls. Then ill check it and say how much u lose.
25 trait points are enough to do well enough to hold your own. You could still build a quite effective build around what you do have access to. What that build would be, I don’t know. My mes is not there yet. No, you will not be as efficient as an 80. But you will not be holding everyone else back, either.
I think, what implys to my mesmer, implys to any other class or build. U can get at least 20% more dmg with traits. Or survivability. Or smth else very usefull for you or your team.
What im trying to make u understand, that if player is 20% less effective, he would give 20% less then other 80 lvl teamates give. And thus, basicaly, being carried on.
The difference is not that great. I see nothing in any classes traitlines that will keep them doing that much less damage.
Remember also that your build is built around having those traits. A lower level may choose different weapons and different traits to maximize their usefulness and power at lower level. As I leveled my charas, builds changed several times to maximize my usefulness as I gained the ability to trait differently.
The same tired arguments. The difference is not that great, people. Unless you are explicitly looking for a speedrun, there is no reason to exclude based on level or class.
Ah. In that case, you may want to guest onto Tarnished Coast. It is the unofficial North American RP server, and as such has players that are on all hours. Even got an Aussie in my guild.
Eh…wy its so hard… Look. He can have only 25 trait points. That means, if this mesmer would go for focus (most effective imho). He would get put all 25 trait points in inspiration line and get: Best choice would be heal conditions on heal, warden reflection and sub trait for +15% dmg.
Now. He loses 15% dmg from 1-st trait line. He loses fury on phantoms. He loses 20% lower cd on clones. he loses 20% cd on sword. He loses 20% cd on gs.
That would be much more, then 20% dmg loss. im just trying not to overestimate traits to much.
Yes. U would say, that only my build so special, and there is some magical build, where 25 traits is enough to faceroll everything. Show it to me pls. Then ill check it and say how much u lose.
25 trait points are enough to do well enough to hold your own. You could still build a quite effective build around what you do have access to. What that build would be, I don’t know. My mes is not there yet. No, you will not be as efficient as an 80. But you will not be holding everyone else back, either.
I might suggest using GW2LFG to find dungeon groups as you can find groups looking for dungeons there. CoF, especially, you can always find groups for there.
That is positing that all players must use that particular trait. Everyone traits themselves for their own builds. Yes, a lower level chara will not have all 70 points to assign. A good player, though, will assign the points for maximum benefit and usefulness. Even a level 80 may not have those particular traits you are speaking of if it does not benefit their build.
Then show me lvl 35 build, that can’t benefit from more traits. And By adding all the other traits ill show you how much more effective he would become.
All builds will benefit from more trait points. But the difference will not be as great as you make it out to be.
Im using numbers to argue. Thats as easy as possible for you to understand. If his dmg is 20% lower, then, if all party would consist of low levels, mob would die 20% slower. Where i could be wrong?
What is this magic source of +20% damage from traits that is impossible for a lower level chara to get?
If you know the order to fight them in and your party can focus fire, they are little issue. Monk > Necromancer > Elementalist > Ranger > others. Focus them down and the numbers don’t matter.
That is positing that all players must use that particular trait. Everyone traits themselves for their own builds. Yes, a lower level chara will not have all 70 points to assign. A good player, though, will assign the points for maximum benefit and usefulness. Even a level 80 may not have those particular traits you are speaking of if it does not benefit their build.
Then show me lvl 35 build, that can’t benefit from more traits. And By adding all the other traits ill show you how much more effective he would become.
All builds will benefit from more trait points. But the difference will not be as great as you make it out to be.
Hmm. I’d want to see info on that. I wasn’t aware that those aspects were downscaled. Great if they are, but I’d like to actually see info on that.
I believe it’s in the linked reddit post from the link someone posted in a thread complaining about dynamic level scaling.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/y2ggw/complaint_dynamic_level_scaling_allows_stats_to/
Searched the reddit. Found no mention of sigils or runes. I’ll be able to do the checking myself once I get yet another alt to 35.
Em. -20% weapon cd. Remember? +15% dmg. No? U can have only some of it. U can’t have all vital traits. Traits is even more vital, then food or sigils/runes.
That is positing that all players must use that particular trait. Everyone traits themselves for their own builds. Yes, a lower level chara will not have all 70 points to assign. A good player, though, will assign the points for maximum benefit and usefulness. Even a level 80 may not have those particular traits you are speaking of if it does not benefit their build.
The only real difference is runes and sigils, which rarely make or break a build. Also, I don’t recall the last time I saw anyone run food in dungeons that was not MagiFind.
Runes, sigils and food are also downscaled. Stats from Traits as well.
Hmm. I’d want to see info on that. I wasn’t aware that those aspects were downscaled. Great if they are, but I’d like to actually see info on that.
(edited by SynfulChaot.3169)
I hope you know your grammer makes it difficult to understand what you’re trying to say…or to take it seriously anymore, for that matter.
Last straw for ya? When u can’t support your argument with anything solid. U just keep pushing on gramar? Right. Thats how u should do it.
Let’s keep this discussion on track to avoid getting it closed by the moderators. Thanks. ^.^
My advise: Gear up your lowbies. There’s a reason sometimes even I will turn my nose up at lvl 35’s in an 80 AC run, it’s because they’re in green, blue and white gear and haven’t invested in any traits. You really do drag a team down like that, and you can change it.
If you are lvl 35, I expect you to have geared up appropriately for the dungeon.
Go craft yourself a set of rares – armour and accessories, it’s not difficult or expensive, and it will mean you will contribute to the team in a fair manner.Invest your all the trait points you have.
Asking one to ping gear is not something that should be done. But at the same time, if you are running a sub-80 in dungeons you should be running blues (minimum) or greens (greatly preferred) close to your current level. And you should be traiting properly as you level as well. If you are expecting others to play well, you should as well.
But the point I keep commenting on is, the difference in stats between a lvl 80 and an on-level character inside a downscaled instance is mild-to-minimum when it was tested….4 months ago. As of less than a month ago, another change was added to decrease this difference further. To what degree is still unknown.
Wrong. Try it again. Gear check is already a yesterday argument. Right now we argue difference that exists, cause 35 lvl have no acces to all traits, food, runes, sigils and etc.
The only real difference is runes and sigils, which rarely make or break a build. Also, I don’t recall the last time I saw anyone run food in dungeons that was not MagiFind.
Umm. You might want to post in the Suggestions subforum instead of the Dungeons one.
1-st side even accepted, that lowlevels would slow highlevels down. Now only straw that left for 1-st side is they magical “there is no diffrence, if highlevels playing as fast as slowpokes.”
I did accept that there is a minor speed difference. Again, this is not accounting for speed runs but normal dungeon clears.
Please keep this conversation from becoming closed. There is good information here for people to consider as long as it doesn’t become closed by the mods. So please play nice.
Put your pet on passive and tell it what to attack instead of leaving it on active. Also, learn to dodge as well as you possibly can. You’ll need that skill to stay alive.
U should be ashamed of your inability to read counterarguments and just keeping your line, when fault of it was proven many times.
Or maybe this is the definition of troll. Accusing of not being able to read when he himself refuses/is incapable of…
Don’t sink to that level. Keep your chin up and keep arguing for the side of common sense. They can only bait you if you let them.
Speed runs require everyone to be at peak performance. Everyone can agree on that. A sub-80 can run dungeons just fine, but they will not be setting speed records, which speed runs attempt to do.
The complaint is not that sub-80s are being excluded from speed runs. It is that they are being excluded from any runs. If you are straightforward beforehand that you are doing a 80-only speed run, then you are not being elitist. If you are excluding them from any time you do a dungeon then yes, elitist.
Oh ok so you understand it will take a sub 80 longer to run a dungeon than an 80. Thats kind of the whole thing. I can only do dungeons so many times before I just want to do a quick run and get my tokens/gear/rewards. A sub 80 will slow down this process so I guess thats not such a bad thing for me to not want a player to slow down my game?
The difference in time of a straight run between equally skilled players is minimal enough to not be very noticable. With a speed run, though, where much content is skipped and avoided where it can be, every little bit, every little second helps. Many speed runs are not only level 80 only, but restricted to particular classes geared particular ways. In a speed run, that is acceptable. Extending those restrictions outside of speed runs is not.
Downleveling takes into account that lower levels do not have exotics. It does balance out stats taking into account best-in-slot at that level.
How about you actually provide some evidence of this rather than spewing it like it’s the truth despite all observable evidence of actual experience to the contrary?
Ok. I thought I had linked this enough, but I guess not.
Here we go. Please follow the links here and here for information on Dynamic Level Adjustment and how it works.
This is assuming that all sub-80s are new to the dungeon. Not all are. Also, I believe I have stated that there is no problem with people doing 80-only speedruns so long as it is stated beforehand (aka when you post the LFG).
But wouldn’t that be elitist? I mean, why exclude sub 80s from speed runs?
Speed runs require everyone to be at peak performance. Everyone can agree on that. A sub-80 can run dungeons just fine, but they will not be setting speed records, which speed runs attempt to do.
The complaint is not that sub-80s are being excluded from speed runs. It is that they are being excluded from any runs. If you are straightforward beforehand that you are doing a 80-only speed run, then you are not being elitist. If you are excluding them from any time you do a dungeon then yes, elitist.
Also. About doing dungeon few times. He still unexperienced player. Untill he would get 80 lvl. Play with it for a while. Learn most of his class tricks in this exact dungeon, only then u could call em experienced. Before it, he is still a beginer.
Getting to level 80 is not some magical gate to learning. Learning a dungeon takes running the dungeon. Nothing more and nothing less.
Mayby, between each pull, u take your time and explain every little thing about next mobs and encounter? And sure u not taking this time into account, when counting time u wasted on dungeon? Also, most likely u doing full clears of dungeon. So u doing it as slow as lowlevels. It might explain why u c no difference. Im doing speedruns. So, for me, gap is just to big.
Also… As I said before, im fine with low lvl alts, they not as bad, as newbies. And newbie would allways lack experience. And skill without experince is just not enough.
This is assuming that all sub-80s are new to the dungeon. Not all are. Also, I believe I have stated that there is no problem with people doing 80-only speedruns so long as it is stated beforehand (aka when you post the LFG).
There is not. And with how much movement is needed in combat, mouse movement would get you killed very quickly.
Have you guys who feel “80s only” is elitist considered maybe organizing your own dungeons with sub-80s only? Serious question. The majority of us aren’t going to be persuaded, so why not even things out a bit.
I know that I can always find a group regardless of the chara that I run. Others may get pushed away by this kind of elitist behaviour and give up on dungeons entirely, which would be a bloody shame. We want a friendly welcoming community here, not a dismissive elitist one.
Sub-80s do not need to be carried! And acting as if you are doing them a favour by taking them along is firmly elitist. I’d prefer a unskilled player over an elitist any day as at least they are not judgemental kittens.
Sure. They dont need. Without 80 lvl they would probably do this path in…hm…2 hours instead of 40 min with 80 lvl. They would clear all mobs. Die to them many times. And finaly theyl do this dungeon naked. While they slowing me down, Im also speeding em up. Thats what i call carrying. Though. It would be better for them to do this dungeon without 80 lvl. This way theyl learn more about this game and their class.
The time difference is never that great if players are equally skilled. And if you assume lower level charas are less skilled regardless, you are doing neither yourself or the community any favours.
I run with groups with sub-80s frequently, and I have never seen the level of fail you are attributing to all lower level players. Never.
Knowledge of characters and classes does not come from level. It comes from experience, experimentation, and research. Sub-80s are well capable of all three.
U can’t use your weapon good, when it changes everyday. Every 5 or so levels theyll get new trait and even some utilitys. They need to adapt to dungeon, since they new there. And etc and etc. Even at 80 lvl there is still things to learn. And u saying they perfected their class at 35 lvl? Nonsense.
You can still use the weapons and your utility skills just fine, even below level 80. And if you need a long time to acquaint yourself with new traits then you are not a skilled player.
And anyone that thinks that they have ‘perfected’ a class is someone who refuses to learn anything new. And that is bad.
People should chill…sub level 80s are not making your run taking much longer (if it’s even noticable) if they know what they’re doing (i.e. an alt or has run it before). For most dungeons knowledge (of how the paths are run) -> skill -> level.
IMO if you don’t advertise for 80 only beforehand, you don’t have the right to kick someone below 80 if they are high enough for the cap, 35, 45, 55 etc
Alts is fine in most cases. Yep. They still being carryied. But not as much as newbies in dungeons. And if it is not alt…its a newbie. With all the learning curve to do. He WIll be troublesome.
Low levels are not carried. I cannot stress that enough. Bad players are carried, but low levels are not.
I’m arranging a run this upcoming Friday (Feb 22) at about 14:00 server time on NA servers. I’ve got a few spots free, so ping me in game or send me a PM if you are interested
Well that was 28 days ago, you never know if you can get reply’s. I’m not forcing anything on anybody.
Original post was. Still gets updated frequently with new players showing interest. I may be arranging a group there, myself, within the next week.
Last update was 2-3 days ago for the eu server. Last update was 9 days ago aside from that. This is for NA players and also most people on that page post thing’s they are doing and there isn’t much of people actually actively putting them together. What we are doing is getting you path 4 completion that is quicker than an Arah run for a price.
If I don’t get a run in tomorrow, I will arrange a run for those that want to actually complete the content instead of buying it. And I will use that thread to do so.
Good job organizing that run through that thread yesterday. That sure seemed to work out for you.
Haven’t posted yet as I want to get a time that will work for a majority of players first. If you like, I can keep this thread apprised of the status of the free group.
The OP is offering a legitimate service for gold, and here you are hijacking his thread, shame on you.
I am not hijacking. I am pointing out a free alternative. Nothing more and nothing less.
If I take them – good for them and they should be thankful that they so lucky. If not – thats how world works, not all ppl and not allways want to waste time on carrying someone.
Sub-80s do not need to be carried! And acting as if you are doing them a favour by taking them along is firmly elitist. I’d prefer a unskilled player over an elitist any day as at least they are not judgemental kittens.
A lot of nonsense in this thread.
If you havent even got level 80 on your character, you do not know your character well, in almost all cases.
Knowledge of characters and classes does not come from level. It comes from experience, experimentation, and research. Sub-80s are well capable of all three.
You cannot WvW while guested. The only way is to wait until your server gets control of the points you need or transfer to a server that might have control of the points you need.
Go do map comp on your own time to level an alt, but when you do a dungeon just be on an 80. Regardless of how “skilled” you are, you are going to be more of an asset to the team as an 80 than as a sub 80, because the difference is huge. Dungeons in this game are all about experience and decent gear as they really don’t take a tremendous amount of skill.
The difference is not huge. The difference is pretty minor. Remember that gear is downscaled taking into account the best-in-slot rarity for the level in question.
I could have levelled an 80 in the time some people have been arguing not being an 80 makes no difference in this thread, literally!
Yes, you could have. Good for you. And noone has said there is no difference. We have said that there is little difference and exclusion should not be the norm.
We are simply talking of the exclusionary nature of some which is, and should not be, representative of the Guild Wars community as a whole.
Well that was 28 days ago, you never know if you can get reply’s. I’m not forcing anything on anybody.
Original post was. Still gets updated frequently with new players showing interest. I may be arranging a group there, myself, within the next week.
Last update was 2-3 days ago for the eu server. Last update was 9 days ago aside from that. This is for NA players and also most people on that page post thing’s they are doing and there isn’t much of people actually actively putting them together. What we are doing is getting you path 4 completion that is quicker than an Arah run for a price.
If I don’t get a run in tomorrow, I will arrange a run for those that want to actually complete the content instead of buying it. And I will use that thread to do so.
Good job organizing that run through that thread yesterday. That sure seemed to work out for you.
Haven’t posted yet as I want to get a time that will work for a majority of players first. If you like, I can keep this thread apprised of the status of the free group.
Must have in your build, maybe. Not all builds require all 70 points to be effective. And low level charas should prioritize the skills that have the most benefit.
I showed u what i have. I believe, other classes and builds would say the same. I dont think u would find a pro player who would say “And this trait line i choose, cause had nothing better, and i can do great without it.”
Again, yes a fully traited 80 will be more effective. That has never been argued. All we are saying is that is that a sub-80, if traited right, is still a great boon. Those missing traits will make it a bit weaker, but it will not make such a difference that they are useless or not worth partying with.
Evidence = he have same stats and mayby (I dont think low levels have all utility’s open) same utility’s.
But he lack = experience (he is skilled somewhere, but if it is not alt, then its his 1-st char and he is newbie) + traits + food,runes,sigils + every level he grow weaker.
I think your evidence kinda not proving anything. And my experience with low levels only proves it to me. At best they “not shine”. Doing everything just fine and thats ok. But usualy its dead body on the ground “rez me”
Recently while running AC story to help a few complete strangers I saw a level 38 (or so; sub-40 anyways) engineer outperform the level 80 warrior in the party. Level honestly means nothing.
And with all of this, you forget that not all 80s are in full exotic/ascended everythings.
I also think it is bad design that 80s must do lower level dungeons for such gear, it would be ideal if there were three dungeon types, story, explorable and then 80 explorable.
If there were those three dungeon types, which I think most would welcome (myself included), then I would hope it would stop these discussions. Unfortunately, people would still exclude sub-80s due to perceived inadequacy and elitism.
You can pretty much dodge every attack of his with vigor up. Every attack of his is both staggered and heavily telegraphed. The autoattack is rough but even then some people can help rez quick if someone can’t handle it.
Autoattk+ all dodges+ u need to attk him all this time = One of this attks would hit ya. Usualy its his autoattk, that manages to hit ya. And if u make even one mistake – u dead. If even 80 lvl have so much trouble, then low level would be constant “rez me”. Also dont forget his crystal, which not every class have counter for.
Crucible of Eternity is a recommended level 80 for explorable. No sub-80s should be there anyways.
If you are arguing sub-80s in poor gear vs geared 80s, then yes, you are correct. But we are talking of sub-80 charas that are properly geared. A properly geared sub-80 can be as much of a boon as a fully exotic geared 80 in the right hands. And a properly geared 80 can be a liability if not in the right hands.
Wrong. Unless you magically get your hands on a full set of sub lvl 80 exotics that are exactly at your sub 80’s level you are not going to compete with a lvl 80 with full exotics.
Downleveling takes into account that lower levels do not have exotics. It does balance out stats taking into account best-in-slot at that level.
-20% cd. +15% dmg. -20% cd that stacks with weapon cd. Another +15% dmg. Sword trait allows u to use frenzy 20% more often. And etc and etc. All traits is must have in my build. Even losing 1 is high fall in efficiency. Fury for phantoms again… So much good skills, u never have enough traits, to grab all the cookies.
Must have in your build, maybe. Not all builds require all 70 points to be effective. And low level charas should prioritize the skills that have the most benefit.
You call leechers those players who are playing at lvl content, jeez you are only reinforcing the point of those who call “elitists” unskilled players.
Nope. They leechers, cause they joined lvl 80 team. They should play with lowlevels, like themself, or be thankful for the highlevels, who given them a helping hand. They doesnt bring as much as their team, so lvl 80 is carrying em. Easy as that.
If the person knows the class, the difference is small. If a person was so useless as to be contributing nothing, yes I would agree. But a skilled player can contribute greatly.
Anyone who thinks, despite all evidence to the contrary, that all sub-80 charas are leechers are elitists.
i used to cringe soo much when a “below 80” joins the group.
but after reading this whole thread.. i actually won’t mind that much anymore.
the “minimum stat difference from downlvling” stuff..
Yay! The more you know!
The fact this thread has gotten this big and NO ONE from ANet has even dropped by and posted a simple “we hear you” should come off as very troubling. I think at this point, most of us are angrier at this complete and utter radio silence than we are at the state of the ranger class.
There’s a fine line between keeping quiet and ignoring your customers and I feel like ANet crossed the line into the latter when they let this thread get this big.
They said “we hear you” months ago. They know the ranger needs work. But with the feedback they keep getting, I don’t blame them for not telling us everything. We know they are working on it. We know the held back last time as they wanted to get it right. I’m all for letting them get it right instead of rushing it out the door to (maybe) please us. All we don’t know is how and when.
And if you have checked much of this thread, lots of it is irritation at them and people throwing in the towel (or at least saying they are). That is not the kind of environment I’d want to talk in, and I doubt they do either.
Thanks for your help, though some info was incorrect:
No armor or weapons are current obtainable with this stat set.
The TP has a lot of Cavalier weapons, even happened to loot some myself in Fractals.
No armor with those stats tho.
Ah. My bad. I sourced the wiki. Someone should update that…
Like alfista.6094 said, I’d not go with either as neither has a dedicated graphics card. You want a computer with a dedicated graphics card by nVidia or ATI.
I have to disagree with Oreimo.8435 on discouraging you from Windows 8. It is a good operating system and is better optimized for power usage than Windows 7. I’ve been running GW2 on Windows 8 since the release preview with zero issue.
I’ll also note that, while 7200 RPM drives are preferred, they are more difficult (and more expensive) to find in laptops. A 5400 RPM drive (2.5" drive standard speed) should be sufficient.
Searching Newegg provided two decent results. A Lenovo and an Acer. While the Acer does have an Intel processor instead of an AMD, I’d lean towards the Lenovo as it has a superior video card with twice the video RAM. That and Lenovo is known for better build quality than Acer.
Sure. There is noobs among 80 lvls. But there is much more noobs amongs <80. Thats obvious. Noob=/= kitten Noob is basicaly a newbie. So thats obvious, that among low levels ull find more newbies. Though there is a kitten among any groups. U can’t use kitten 80 lvls groups against pro skilled 35 lvl group. U should measure best 80 lvl group u been in and best <80 group u been in. That would be your answer.
Again, we all know that equally experienced players will always be better on an 80. That has never been questioned. We are saying that there is no real reason not to party with them as the difference in completion time of dungeons is small if they are skilled.
And also…this arguments not taking into account player skill, cause player skill have only 1 thin thread, that links to levels. And this thread is in a high level argument side. Cause there is higher chance, that when player invested more time in game – his skill will be higher. Thats just how numbers work.
Unfortunately, time spent in games does not necessarily mean skill. It would be great if it did, but it does not. I have met highly skilled players not yet at 80 and I have met terrible players in full exotics at 80 (and wondered how they got them). I have, of course, also met bad sub-80s and great 80s.
All I am saying is that, unless you are outright going for/arranging a speedrun, you should accept people of any level in your dungeon runs.
In the early days I tot engineers DPS was really terrible and all their had to offer was their turrets. Boy was I wrong. I will prefer a teammate who plays an engineer well over a player using a ranger with equal skill (BTW I never kick ppl because of their classes even ranger or ever refuse to join a party because of said reasons) in general and most probably even over a necro in 90% of the dungeons. Possibly even an elementalist in a few cases.
Its simply because they offer a lot of utility, support AND ranged/AOE/melee DPS, albeit without the reflect and stability granted by the guardian. I dont dislike rangers at all, its just that I feel that Anet should come clean and say it is the designated class for beginners and is a subpar end game profession.
I am sorry that your impression of rangers is so low. Rangers can be quite useful and powerful if played right. I would not call rangers designed for beginners. In order to play dungeons well as a ranger you must be able to micro-manage you pet well, which is not a beginner thing to do.
Yes, rangers do have some issues at the moment. Most of the issues rangers face are known by ANet, and they plan on fixing it when they know how.
All these arguments of sub-80s not having the same traits as level 80s does not take into account one thing. Player skill. If all players are playing optimally, yes an 80 will be better. Noone is arguing against that.
I have personally found that most lower level players in dungeons (those that it is not their first time) are overall better players than most 80s. This makes sense as they need to be to be able to complete the content well. Many (though not all, thankfully) 80s, especially those who insist on 80 only parties, rely too much on their gear and not enough on their skill and on teamwork.
Then u not using your char at his 100%. Most likely u even one of this true heroes who goes in melee and then 1-1-1-1-1. Yep. This guys wont notice any difference. Im playing mesmer and allways change my traits depending on boss. Need range? Pistols. Need melee? Focus. Long range fight with probable casualitys? Mantras. Need reflect? Warden reflection. And etc and etc. I can change to glamours. I can change to signets distortion. So much flexibility. How can u even compare it to wooden mesmer of 35 lvl?
None of what you just mentioned is trait specific and yet you’re attacking me because you think I don’t swap traits? A lvl 35 mesmer can swap in any of those weapons and any of those skills for whatever circumstance you just outlined.
Now try again. You’re getting closer to the meat of the difference though.
Weapons. Not traits. In example. Weapon traits give u lower cd. Clone trait gives u less cd on clones. Warden reflection doubles the dmg of any projectile i reflect with warden.
Healing mantras giving u ability to heal allys. And etc and etc. Wy should i even mention it? Like someone said… l2p and know it yourself
Lower level does not mean no traits. It only means less traits. A good player will still trait for maximum effectiveness.
Traits. Im talking about traits. Any players, that plays at 100% of his char would tell ya, that traits is vital to his char. With just 1 trait i can double my dmg against 1 enemy. And this is just 1 trait. And this 35 lvl lack not only 1 trait. He lacks 2 branches of the whole trait tree.
Traits are vital for full effectiveness, yes, but a skilled player will make full use of what traits they do have. And a majority of sub-80 players are at or above level 40, at which they have access to the master level where most of the crucial traits are. Yes, an 80 will be better. Noone is arguing that. We are just saying that it will not be like night and day. It will be a small difference if the player is skilled.
U sure u have any 80 chars? Or u have only 5 80 lvl wars? Cause ill say difference is HUGE.
Check my sig, good sir. Not a warrior or mesmer at 80 yet. My first 80 (and my main) is a ranger. So no easy-mode here.
Hey soooo no word from Jon yet? How about some communication!
I don’t think he’ll want to say anything until the changes are 100% finalized due to the heavy (and insanely harsh) feedback he received when some of the previously stated updates were held back.
The reason they don’t respond is psychological. They know if they just keep those Ranger fixes “over the horizon” there won’t be a mass exodus of their player base.
No. I think it is more that they don’t want to state anything that will not happen. The state of the game is changing around the meta, meaning PvP. And things need to get balanced as to not become overpowered. And, honestly, some things such as pet AI require a lot of work to fix. I think they want to fix things right, and that takes time.
Like I stated above, I don’t think they want to announce anything until it is set is stone to avoid the entire debacle that spawned the current state of this thread.
This difference is huge.
It is not.
I say it’s not, because I’ve actually leveled multiple characters through dungeons and the difference is always minute.
Then u not using your char at his 100%. Most likely u even one of this true heroes who goes in melee and then 1-1-1-1-1. Yep. This guys wont notice any difference. Im playing mesmer and allways change my traits depending on boss. Need range? Pistols. Need melee? Sword. Long range fight with probable casualitys? Mantras. Need reflect? Warden reflection. And etc and etc. I can change to glamours. I can change to signets distortion. So much flexibility. How can u even compare it to wooden mesmer of 35 lvl?
At level 35, a chara has access to all the same skills as a level 80. They can bring the same useful skills to any battle. The only difference is whether or not the chara has the traits to make the skills even more useful, but even a level 80 rarely (if ever) is traited to emphasize all of the skills they use in dungeons.
If you don’t have the traits needed to make certain skills useful, you don’t run those skills. A skilled player will know what they can and can’t do well at their level. The biggest difference between two players is skill, not level.
Then u would be less usefull. Cause ur not flexible for any situation. Not even mentioning, that u dont even have all the traits. Ur not only unflexible, but also underperfoming, cause u dont even have the whole trait line.
Even a fully-traited 80 is not flexible for any situation. All builds are built to emphasize certain things. If you go outside of that yes you will bring more utility to a certain situation, but you are not using that skill at full potential. A good sub-80 can still bring plenty of utility. They will be slightly less flexible, but they will still be flexible.
it is not elitist. people just don’t want to babysit the lower level especially since the update, where you can’t wp when the party is in combat…. rezzing most of the time will only drag the group, seriously.
Lower levels do not need babysitting. That attitude right there is why people are calling you elitist. Good low level players will pull their own weight.
I can assist. I run dungeons frequently and am highly familiar with, and can teach, all dungeons save CM and Arah. With no glitching.
I agree that what you said here is a good example of elitism. Not bringing sub 80s to dungeons is not in fact elitism. And you can quote all the level 80’s you have and thousands of hours you have played at me you want. If someone keeps telling me that a wall is red and they show me diagrams and quote threads and go on and on and on about how this wall is red and I keep looking at it and seeing a blue wall(MY experience) I don’t care how many times you say it because MY experience has shown something else. I will do a dungeon with anyone of any class even if they are new to it but every time I have done with a sub 80 EVERY KITTEN TIME it’s ended badly so sorry sir, for me at least the wall is blue. Label me an elitist in ignorance if you want but I am one of the nicest, friendliest, social, and helpful people in game and I refuse to do it.
You still run with people who are sub-80 so I would not label you as such. And I hope you run across some sub-80s who run well so you can see that we do exist!
Were I do agree it does get annoying when people only want level 80’s I can see there side. I have a big problem when people will kick you from a party because you are not a zerk warrior or the one mesmer they need for the portal.
Is it my fault I did not want to be like everyone else and play a warrior. I kind of feel like all the time and effort I put into getting my theif to level 80 was a waste. To even play the game sometimes I feel like I need to go make a zerk warrior.
You don’t, and don’t let the elitists convince you otherwise. All classes are perfectly viable, though some are easier in dungeons (warrior) and some are harder (thief).
You can link me all you want. I know for a fact that the adjustments are not accurate. You are never going to convince me otherwise, unless they actually make changes to the adjustments. I will not play any dungeon with a sub level 80. I don’t care what your prerogative is, your not going to convince me to waste my time playing with them.
It is unfortunate that you will not accept any actual evidence as presented here. And if you still feel that partying with a sub-80 is a waste of time, then you are an elitist.
Call me what you like. Ive already explained I levelled to 80 without wasting anyone elses time. Meanwhile I think its pretty selfish for others to expect me to carry them and waste my time. Ive put alot of hours into the game. Its brutally obvious to anyone who has also put alot of hours into the game that being an 80 in a dungeon is alot easier than doing it in lower levels.
Sub-80s do not need to get carried. If you still feel that this is true despite everything stated and referenced, then you are refusing to use logic and any further discussion with you is moot.
I do have several thousand hours in the game and 5 geared 80s, so I am not ignorant, despite your allusions.
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