Unless you need the 1500 longbow range, it is of little use outside of WvW. And unless you need the control of the longbow, I believe the shortbow is a higher damage weapon.
For the record, NO ONE here so far has argued in favor of kicking someone for being sub 80 when the team is NOT clearly labeled 80’s only.
I have actually seen that argument multiple times.
I have only ever argued against kicking when the requirement is not clear. And I have stated multiple times that there is no issue with people making 80-only groups so long as it is stated. If people join a group that states requirements without meeting those requirements, then there is no issue with kicking them.
Joining a group that does not specify ‘speed run’ or ‘level 80 only’ is not lying. If the party does not specify such a requirement, there should be no problem.
He specifically said, “…wanted to do a few quick runs with experienced people. made a SPECIFIC LFG post…”
I missed that in the missing punctuation/capitalization. My bad. In that case, yes those players should not have tried to join.
Be that as it may, my statement still stands on it’s own merit, even if it does not apply to that situation.
Joining a group that does not specify ‘speed run’ or ‘level 80 only’ is not lying. If the party does not specify such a requirement, there should be no problem.
I’m arranging a run this upcoming Friday (Feb 22) at about 14:00 server time on NA servers. I’ve got a few spots free, so ping me in game or send me a PM if you are interested.
We’ve still got room for another in our Arah attempt tomorrow. If interested, ping me in-game or send me a PM.
Nobody has any opinion on this idea? Or other suggestions to fix the problems surrounding the chasm between newcomers and speedrunners?
I think the biggest solution is for both sides to agree to let the other continue in peace. The speedrunners should not expect all to be 80 and the newcomers should not expect all groups to except them.
That being said, all groups should have their requirements in the clear. If you are only accepting 80s or running a speed run, say so in the LFG.
Just because we have a natural impulse to do something, doesn’t make it right. There are alot of very bad things that could be rightly called an optimization of effort. We’d be in a pretty horrible state is anything was okay as long as it was efficient.
Exactly! Just because we can, it doesn’t mean we should.
Again, this thread is not talking of the speed-runners. This is talking of people simply looking for a group. Dungeons are designed to be run at level. Unless you specify ‘80-only’ or ‘speed run’, there is no reason to exclude others.
Probably means Gold currency you earn for completing the dungeon, which I overlooked. Would you guys rather have it in? I mean it’s a great idea for players overall.
As the token rewards are already in the end rewards dialogue, might as well have the modifier affect everything from it. Gold, karma, and tokens.
Level 80s exempt from token multiplier under all circumstances.
Hmm. You don’t want to make the 80’s unaffected by the multiplier. Otherwise that would just perpetuate the problem and unbalance it otherwise. Instead have it so they are affected by the multiplier but, in turn, cannot affect it. Their presence does not change the multiplier but if there are lower-leveled players in the team they would still all get the benefit from it.
Rewarding people for contributing less? No no no. It’s like the MF fiasco all over again.
If you read carefully you would see the the team would get the benefits, not just the lower-leveled players. As that is the case, is there a downside to this?
Call targets and focus fire on them one at a time. It also helps to know in what order to target them. You’ll learn that as you go or you can pick it up from other players.
There are plenty of things they can change to incentivize people to team with lower lvls. You just simply lack the imagination or never bothered to think up of some.
They can make downscaling penalize higher lvls more to bring their stats more in line with a lower lvl.
They can also tone down the difficulty on some of the lower scale dungeons to make them easier for lower lvls to run them, so they are less of a liability on teams.
Those are just the things that came to mind in 10 seconds of actually thinking about it.
Having said that, imo low levels shouldn’t even be in dungeons anyway.(That’s my “should” statement since it’s not what IS) It takes like less than 1 week to lvl to 80 maybe 3 weeks if you are casual.
You can also just switch to your low lvl before boss to get full reward and exp if you must bring a low lvl.
All these concepts have been covered to death in this thread and threads like this but you and people like you just block out any reasonable workaround and rehash your slogans in the face of all logic and common sense.
The problem with all of these are as follows:
Downscaling already brings stats in line. They would need to also remove traits, but how do you remove access to the traits and inform the player? Also, how would the game determine in what order it should remove your points?
If they went so far as to make 80s outright weaker than lower-level players, then there would be little incentive to even do dungeons for these players. If they took the difficulty down further, the 80-only rush groups would still only take 80s as they would still feel that a sub-80 would slow them down.
Yes, you feel that 80s do not belong in dungeons. Until that becomes ArenaNet’s official stance (and they update the dungeon enter dialogue to say ‘recommended level: 80’) that is not the message that we should be passing onto new players.
You are not the majority, nor am I. I am simply stating what it should be to make for a good and friendly community.
I never pretended to be the majority.
I’m just pointing out that only stating what things “should be” is the most useless thing anyone can say because it provides no way to get to that state.
You simply can’t get it through your head that you need to actually petition the devs to change the game rules in such a way to incentivize people to behave in that way or THEY WILL NEVER BEHAVE THE WAY YOU WANT THEM TO.
Just rehasing your same tired “should be” talking points here doesn’t do anything towards fixing the problem because unless you have magical mental powers to control peoples’ minds they WILL NOT do what you think they “should” do.
There is nothing they can realistically add that would make you and many others want to party with sub-80s. That is fine. Just let people know ahead of time in the LFG post instead of just kicking those that try to join that are not 80.
I cannot change what people do or think. I can, however, voice my views on what I think would benefit the community.
It is true that there are no game penalties for acting exclusionary. And it is true that there are not extra incentives.
That being said if you wish to run 80-only runs, specify that in your LFG. Everyone else should not need to post ‘sub-80 ok’ to get a group. The norm should be acceptance, not exclusion.
The norm is whatever the majority of the community decides it is. That is directly influenced by the rules and restrictions in the game.
You don’t get to decide what the norm is unilaterally.
You are not the majority, nor am I. I am simply stating what it should be to make for a good and friendly community.
It is true that there are no game penalties for acting exclusionary. And it is true that there are not extra incentives.
That being said if you wish to run 80-only runs, specify that in your LFG. Everyone else should not need to post ‘sub-80 ok’ to get a group. The norm should be acceptance, not exclusion.
IMO, you generally lose money if you are thinking of crafting stuff to sell on the Trading Post – you are better off selling the materials that craft those stuff directly because you will earn a profit.
Crafting for most people, is a way to level their character, and to craft exotics for their own use (or for their friends). In fact, if you don’t want to level that quickly, don’t do any crafting. Most gears you want to craft can actually be bough cheaply from the Trading Post (cheaper than if you would craft them yourself).
I actually made money while crafting, amazingly enough.
I bet if you sell those mats individually instead of crafting them, you earn a bit more.
Nope! I did the math. Like I said before, I lost money crafting the greens, but made more than enough to make up for it with the rares and blues.
IMO, you generally lose money if you are thinking of crafting stuff to sell on the Trading Post – you are better off selling the materials that craft those stuff directly because you will earn a profit.
Crafting for most people, is a way to level their character, and to craft exotics for their own use (or for their friends). In fact, if you don’t want to level that quickly, don’t do any crafting. Most gears you want to craft can actually be bough cheaply from the Trading Post (cheaper than if you would craft them yourself).
I actually made money while crafting, amazingly enough.
Asura and Sylvari don’t tend to have surnames. They tend to have singular names. As such, it could potentially be quite hard to find untaken names for them.
Then add titles. The game gives plenty of examples: Researcher, Experimenter, etc.
True. I’ve seen many titles for Asura and Sylvari on the RP server.
Thanks! I’ll check out the sub forums, one more question though. Should I focus on crafting? I find myself making a lot of cash by selling the materials on the outpost.
You can make some money crafting blue items. Can make even more with rare items, if done right. You’ll practically always lose money crafting greens. Basically, it is up to you. You can make some money and save some money, but it is up to if you like crafting.
1 – You may want to ask on the thief subforum. I prefer a sword/dagger build in PvE, myself.
2 – If you meet the suggested level for the dungeon, it is not to early (despite what some might try to tell you). As for looking for a group for dungeons, you may want to try using GW2LFG.
3 – Fight well and help your team! For more suggestions than that, you may want to check out the WvW subforum.
4 – How you manage your guild(s) is up to you. If you are seeking, though, you may want to check in the Guilds subforum.
5 – The best way to level is by doing what you enjoy, be it heart quests, dynamic events, gathering, crafting, dungeons, or just exploration.
6 – Armor stats depend entirely on what build you are running.
7 – You will hit max level without trying to hard, so you don’t need to worry overmuch. Just enjoy the game and you should hit 80 before you realize it. ^.^
Once again, sub-80 charas do not need to be carried. If you truly believe that, then yes, you are an elitist.
That being said if you wish to run 80-only runs, specify that in your LFG. Everyone else should not need to post ‘sub-80 ok’ to get a group. The norm should be acceptance, not exclusion.
How did you become the arbiter of how LFG posts should be made?
I am speaking of what makes sense and what is more beneficial to the community. If you have restrictions on what you are seeking, you should post that. If you don’t have restrictions, you should not have to post that. Simple common sense.
Once again, sub-80 charas do not need to be carried. If you truly believe that, then yes, you are an elitist.
That being said if you wish to run 80-only runs, specify that in your LFG. Everyone else should not need to post ‘sub-80 ok’ to get a group. The norm should be acceptance, not exclusion.
Wrong. It’s called being a realist.
And can you please explain if lvl 80s didn’t need to be carried WHY there aren’t any teams labeled, “sub lvl 80s!”
Because it should not need to be stated. If the dungeon suggested level is lower than 80, then you would not need to outright say ‘sub-80s ok’. You just take it as ‘Hey, ANet says this level is ok. Let’s make a group!’.
Once again, sub-80 charas do not need to be carried. If you truly believe that, then yes, you are an elitist.
That being said if you wish to run 80-only runs, specify that in your LFG. Everyone else should not need to post ‘sub-80 ok’ to get a group. The norm should be acceptance, not exclusion.
When leveling, I always save up to get the elites as they become available. And while I may not have picked up every skill, I do have access to all skills that are actually used.
I don’t believe you. In order to have enough points left for an elite skill you’d have to completely nerf your build and/or run around all low lvl zones collecting every skill point you can find.
Not to mention most of the best elite skills key to any build takes 30 points by themselves.
It just takes smart use of where to spend your skill points. You may not have the 30 point one yet, but there is not reason you should not have access to at least one elite (which are honestly rarely used) and several tier 3 skills.
I run with sub-80s frequently and the groups wipe no more than full 80 groups.
I don’t believe that. I don’t think you even believe that.
Actually, I do believe that. The only thing I see die reliably in dungeons are thieves, but I still do not exclude them. And, despite running with groups of any level, I rarely see wipes and I see them happen as often with full 80 groups than with groups of mixed level.
That kind of attitude, that sub-80s are useless, is what is being decried here. Sub-80 charas are not useless. They can pull their own weight.
Tbh 9/10 times they can’t unless it’s alt, so when you pick 80’s only its more likely that they have ran content before and knows what to expect, has all traits, skills etc. Sure if you just run content for fun there’s really no harm to help out some “noobs” but if you want to farm content as smooth as possible then taking low lvl’s is a risk.
If they are completely new to the dungeon, then yes, they are a risk. As are 80s that are new to a dungeon. If they’ve done the dungeon a few times, even if it is their first chara, then they can pull their own weight regardless of level.
All dungeons can be completed at level, with PUGs, and without voice chat. All that it takes is familiarity. If all are new and learning the mechanics then there might be quite a few deaths. But once you learn them, or if you have just one helpful, experienced player, then things can go much smoother.
Actually, it is easy to find groups. As the in-game LFG tool is very weak, most dungeon runners use GW2LFG to find groups. You can find groups to do all dungeons there.
I suggest using OrrMaps. You can select what server you are on to find where they are. It can be updated by anyone, so after a reset you can upload the locations yourself.
No. Dislike the player, not the game. The game does not say you should act that way. Your actions you cannot blame on the game. Sorry. It’s not the game. It is you.
Wrong. The framework of the game is setup to encourage players to behave in a certain manner to achieve success or efficiency just like any other MMO.
You just happen to be one of the disgruntled players that can’t work within the system and instead of asking for systemic change in the game you are blaming people for finding ways to work within the system and not acting in the manner you wish.
That doesn’t work, has not worked, and never will work.
I am not disgruntled and I do work within the system. That does not mean I need to like the elitist elements in it.
Checked back in after two more pages. Still no one answering the question…
If you don’t know the players, don’t know their gear, don’t know their build or skills, what is the potential upside for a max level group of taking a lower level?
I’ll put it another way. If the 80 you’re requesting or the lower-level you could have had are both ciphers to you, what’s the advantage of taking the lower level?
They don’t answer this question because they can’t. Since it destroys their argument completely.
If they are both at peak performance, the 80 will be faster. I have agreed with this multiple times now. But unless you specify that you are running 80s only beforehand, kicking sub-80s makes you a kitten.
There will always be people are elitist and there will be people complain about them. I’m neither. I will make 1 suggest to those looking for level 80 only people. Just make it known. Its not hard to put in your post. This clears up most things and you won’t have sub 80’s responding.
…
Anyhow, I suggest make it clear what you’re looking for when posting that would clear up a lot of issues.
^ All of this. Do this and people will stop complaining at your behaviour. If you make it known that you will only play with other 80s, then your paths will not cross with the rest of ours and everyone remains happy.
I see you chose to not to mention that elite skills by themselves cost 10-30 skill points and you need to invest a set amount of points per tier to even gain access to the next tier, so you actually don’t “have access to all skills” by 30. If we assume you actually know what you are talking about then what you said was just blatantly dishonest.
There’s nothing wrong with teaming with lower lvls if you don’t mind spending extra time per run or wiping but don’t try to distort the facts.
When leveling, I always save up to get the elites as they become available. And while I may not have picked up every skill, I do have access to all skills that are actually used.
I run with sub-80s frequently and the groups wipe no more than full 80 groups.
Why are people so intent on controlling the actions of others? I want fast and easy runs with fellow level 80s to speedily acquire tokens. You are happy with slower runs with sub80s – great for you! Why try and impose your preferences on others?
It is like multiple people have stated. Kicking others for being sub-80 when you did not make your requirement clear. If you want your 80-only speed runs, make that clear beforehand. Just inviting everyone and kicking non 80s isn’t right.
Yeah, I knew about GW2lfg.com (though, I haven’t tried it yet, but surely will now!).
I meant more like in-game. I find Anet rather competent, so it’s find its way into the game eventually.
I didn’t know about the reward structure, though. Good to know.
Thanks for the reply!
ANet has stated that they are working on an improved LFG tool. I am looking forward to when they do have it done, but until then GW2LFG is the go to for PUGs.
“Knowledge of characters and classes " comes from playing. Playing gives levels. Therefore "Knowledge of characters and classes " comes from levels. Your mental gymnastics avoiding this conclusion are fascinating but flawed.
Some learn faster than others. Time spent is not necessarily indicative of skill.
And you can gain knowledge from more than just playing, FYI.
And what is wrong with naming sylvari for example Ari the RedLeaf and giving it red leafs for haircut?:D
Be imaginative
Or sylvari thief called Teher Ashenbark ?
I am speaking strictly of a lore based perspective. Very few Sylvari have anything more than one name. But unless you are an RPer, it makes little difference.
I agree with the OP. Some people should get off from their high horses.
Seriously. This is just a game. If someone proclaims it is work, said person doesn’t understand the meaning of playing a game.
Other than that, I find it increasingly difficult and rather frustrating that nobody does story dungeons, every. I merely find like 1 other person every time I shout. I wish Anet would somehow encourage people more. A looking for group tool would be nice.
You may want to try using GW2LFG. You should be able to find a group without too much issue.
The problem with finding people for story mode is the rewards are very little (about 1/3 of explorable and no tokens) for people who have completed them already. This leads few to return to them. That is an oversight, and I hope they eventually add more incentive for people to return to them.
That works fine until you run into problems all the time (for example due lack of personal skill, quite common issue).
I’ve seen a lack of personal skill from charas of all levels. I still party with all. I prefer to actually contribute to the community instead of only taking from it.
How those level 80’s know that you won’t be just burden to their team?
How do we know that those level 80s know what they are doing and won’t be a burden? We don’t know the answer to either. But we should give them all the benefit of the doubt anyways.
A skilled and geared lvl 80 team beats a dungeon the fastest. That’s an undeniable fact of the game. No amount of strawman arguments like skill>gear is going to change that. Some people simply want the fastest possible run and require perfectly geared max level people for that.
Whether or not you want to play with people who only care about the fastest run is a different discussion entirely. Personally I don’t.
If you only do speed runs, label your groups as such. Kicking others that are not 80 instead is not the way to do it.
If you’re just going for standard dungeon clears instead of speed runs, though, then excluding all sub-80s is quite elitist.
Asura and Sylvari don’t tend to have surnames. They tend to have singular names. As such, it could potentially be quite hard to find untaken names for them.
Players should not be feeling this pressure from the vocal elitist minority. All players should feel welcome to play the content as they reach the suggested level for the dungeon. Players should not feel obligated to be level 80 before doing content designed for lower levels.
It’s more like the vocal complainer minority.
I’d love it if everyone can team up together too but the fact is dungeons are just not setup that way.
In other words, don’t hate the player, hate the game.
No. Dislike the player, not the game. The game does not say you should act that way. Your actions you cannot blame on the game. Sorry. It’s not the game. It is you.
The same tired arguments. The difference is not that great, people. Unless you are explicitly looking for a speedrun, there is no reason to exclude based on level or class.
Wrong, there’s a huge difference in traits not to mention skill points.(lvl 30ish has no access to tier 2 or 3 traits)
Everyone is looking for a speed run since dungeons are a token treadmill.
Who in their right mind would want to take longer than it’s neccessary to beat an instance when they’ve already beaten the same instance 100 times already?
You yourself admit that you need lvl 80s in a speed run, which is an indirect admission that there is a significant difference between lvl 80s and those that are lower.
A level 30 has access to all skills. They may not have access to all traits, but you can be effective enough to not hold your party back. And not everyone is looking for a speed run. Many are just looking to complete it and don’t mind full clears. I, personally, prefer full clears as you can get some good loot in many dungeons.
I have completed most dungeons too many times to count. I still prefer playing with players who will talk and be nice over people who think they are better than a majority of the game population.
