Guild Wars 2

Uther Deathhand.1570:

Ah yes synfulchaot you are right what i meant to say was that pve was able to get them way before wvwers like update wise. You are correct that wvwers can now get them cheaper if using laurels and badges.

That change is actually pushing me into WvW as I have 9 charas to outfit with ascended gear and WvW will shave off weeks of play to get them.

Einlanzer.1627:

How do people not get that melee is supposed to outdamage ranged across the board? This is meant to compensate for the time that being in melee requires moving around more and puts you at higher risk. Even if your Greatsword outdamages your Longbow in a DPS test, it doesn’t necessarily make it a better weapon; there will be a lot of fights where your Longbow will get more uptime and will outperform your Greatsword while also putting you in less danger. That’s by design. If Longbow outdamaged Greatsword in basic DPS tests, the Greatsword would be pointless.

I understand that melee is supposed to be more powerful than ranged across the board, but I feel that that puts the ranger at a serious disadvantage from a design perspective.

Look at it this way. The class is designed around bows. Yes, I know we do melee too so hear me out first. The class is designed around bows. About being ‘unparalleled archers’. But what good is being an ‘unparalleled archer’ when there is no real incentive to use bows as melee is stronger? Especially our melee options which are filled to the brim with evades. With our Wilderness Survival tree and our evasion, we can survive practically anything in melee. So we honestly don’t need to ever really go ranged.

Here is a suggestion of mine.

Make rangers work backwards of the other classes. Make their bows a bit more powerful. And weaken their melee. How is this balanced, you ask? Simple. It forces them out of melee and makes them want to avoid it. To counter their ranged ‘advantage’ in WvW and PvP you just need to close with them and keep them in melee. As for PvE, there are already a lot of mechanics that try to punish ranged attackers over melee combatants. Mai Trin’s ranged attack is a prime example of such.

I mean seriously, how much sense does it make that the only real viable builds in PvP for ranger are to bunker and not move. No, there is no problem with rangers meleeing. But when not moving, the ranger isn’t ‘ranging’. And isn’t that what rangers are named after?

Serraphin Storm.2369:

I have played my ranger since beta. We are stronger now than any point since release. Choices have been made that not everyone agrees with. Yet we are stronger.

There are those that lead and those that follow. Sharing builds is a good and bad thing. Those that create build understand the class and the context to use the build. when a neft hits they know what to change to keep it viable. alot of those that copy build will never create a great build because the never truely understood the class. The top percent of rangers dont see the class the way the other 90% does. They may not agree but for them it’s not all doom and gloom.

The idea that the Sb is our best weapon has been ingrained in our minds. Its not. It is our easiest weapon. Like all things default to the easiest not the best. Most of you thing the axe is a crappy weapon. Yet it out proforms the sb is some areas. (in my opinion a major area).

Dungeons- I have said this in the past I will bring 5 rangers to any dungeon over 5 of any class. The class isnt weak in dungeons it’s the tactic that have evolved for many dungeon is the problem. Why is it the Heavy classess rarely rally other plays. Why is it the warrior always takes a dirt nap first. If you are the ranger in the group be the one that rally allies be the last to fall or solo the boss to save it from reset. We have the tools to be a force of nature.

Jp- Those who are really good at jump puzzles (those who can run a jp without slowing down) will tell you that you dont need speed boost. Pet’s getting in your way only happens when you fall or make a mistake.

I find that those that lvl their ranger in a day or only mostly with crafting feel the greatest dispear about the class. If this is you go back and take the time to learn the class.

You are right on some of these points and a bit off on others.

Yes, we are the strongest we have been since launch, power wise. But we are still severely lacking compared to all other classes. We aren’t saying we are so weak as to be useless. We are saying that we need to work harder than other classes just to perform at the same level as they do without effort. It’s not all ‘doom and gloom’, but there should always be the dialogue on how to improve the class so we don’t remain least wanted in most game modes.

SB is not our best weapon. That is true. It is, however, our best ranged weapon. Yes, the axe can outperform it in some areas. But not all. Single-target the SB is a superior weapon due to it’s higher rate of fire. Especially if you trait Piercing Arrows. LB is better for 900+ range simply because SB range was nerfed to force us to use it. Simply put, SB is the highest DPS ranged weapon the ranger has access to. Now if you’re talking of highest DPS weapon period, all the ranged options pale in comparison to the GS and sword. Personally, as a PvE/dungeon oriented player, I find SB to be our best ranged option for most all situations.

Dungeons – You are right about your suggested tactics for rangers in dungeons. Due to our mobility, and additionally our lower DPS, we should always be the first ones to strive to revive a downed ally. And as a ranger we should always be one of the last, if not the last, one to fall. We should also support our allies with Healing Spring as often as possible as it is, IMHO, the most powerful healing skill in the game in addition to being the longest lasting water field. Unfortunately that is where our utility ends. We have very few other party support skills and too much of our DPS is linked to an AI that cannot deal with the dynamic combat required in dungeons, and as a result dies to heavy boss hits and AoE fields that it just stands in like a kitten. That is the reason rangers are considered near the bottom in dungeon groups. Not that we are useless, just that we bring far less to the table than any other class, through no fault of our own. That being said, I still main my ranger in practically every dungeon and dungeon path.

JP – Yes, rangers are good here. But honestly … who isn’t?

Many who complain on rangers here are people who play them extensively. We complain as even though we are stronger than before, we are still weaker than all of the other classes. And we are still being punished/nerfed in PvE and WvW solely for PvP reasons. Reasons that don’t effect the styles of play found in PvE and WvW. That is why we complain.

ilr.9675:

Using a Vanity pet is fine…. I do it all that all the time with my EB Timber Wolf…

The problem here was people choosing bear b/c they got in the habit of the Crutch.
AKA: a F.O.O.S.
Please see this Video to understand exactly what I mean by that:
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/balancing-for-skill

Ahh. Extra Credits. A series that all people who post in the forums with ‘suggestions’ should really, really watch before they do.

Yes. Choosing a bear all the time is not necessarily desirable. I’m not saying it is. But the tone of the thread is quite insulting to those that do. It’s better to tell them why they shouldn’t run one than insult them for doing so. And maybe listen to why they run it while we’re at it.

That’s all I was trying to say.

The PvPers and WvWers do have a point in that they gain very little achievement points than PvE-only players do. It’s all right to pull us into other game aspects, but only if it happens equally. If PvP and WvW players are strongly pulled into PvE and we are hardly pulled into PvP and WvW for the same rewards then there is a notable imbalance.

And you’re not quite entirely right, Uther. WvW players get ascended gear faster than PvE only players. They cost you 10 less laurels than it costs us. And a guildie of mine does PvP dailies for the laurels as they are faster for him to complete than the PvE ones.

ilr.9675:

…. and what specifically have you done to help said rangers?

I contribute to the positive dialogue in the forums here and try to keep the tone in here one that we shouldn’t be ashamed of. Insulting those rangers that dare deign to choose a bear? Yeah. Not cool. (Yes, I know it wasn’t you. I’m making a point.)

I also try to assist and inform any other rangers I find and I have long near-daily conversations with a guildie who also plays ranger heavily (I prefer more ranged, he prefers more melee; I’m nearly only PvE, he takes his into PvP and WvW) on the state of the ranger and stuff. And I often bring the results of said conversations into the ranger forums.

So yes, I’m doing what I can for us as a class.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

Players like to blame Anet for all thier troubles. While ranger does have some issues alot of them can be overcome by just know the class.

-snip-

Ranger do fine in normal play (mileage will vary according to the expeince of the player).

Umm … hate to say it but as good as we know the class, there is only so much we can do. Rangers maybe fine in normal play, aka general PvE, but once you move outside of that into more challenging territory we are in very shaky shape. It is not for no reason that the community as a whole finds ranger to be the weakest class in both dungeons and WvW and near the bottom in PvP. That is not because noone knows how to play the ranger. It is because the ranger has many inherent issues that are greatly affecting our potential. And those inherent issues have hardly been addressed.

ilr.9675:

But we’re not in the same boat…

I meant all us rangery types. >.< We shouldn’t bring down our fellow rangers. We should help them to get better without basically insulting them as we do.

Lambent.6375:

If they want to make it so daily/monthly achievements don’t count toward leader boards, but do count towards achievement rewards, I’d be fine with that.

Except the point of removing from achievement rewards would be to prevent the ‘Achievement Rewards’ system from devolving into the ‘Daily Achievement Reward’ system as dailies become a greater and greater portion of everyone’s count. It should reward what we have achieved, not how fastidious we were in the completion of our dailies.

Burnfall.9573:

To begin with, I’m not “trolling” (see all my messages)

When the truth is spoken, Accusations of “tolling” is their responses and Punishments

May i say?

I completely agree with everything you said Op.

I have seen your messages, Burn. I’ve also seen many, many of them deleted for the tone and language you use. And they don’t typically delete posts unless another player reports the post.

Now if you had simply said this instead of your previous post than it wouldn’t have been trolling.

Ascii.9726:

I would love to see either the AP rewarded from dailies dropped to 5 or AP from all dailies/ monthlies removed completely. People looking to actually rank on the are seeing so much one-time AP content punish them for missing it (living story, dailies & monthlies).

I’m currently ranked 9th NA for total AP (1st place on SoR server).

Maybe count seperately for current achievement points (as is) and for achievement points without dailies, monthlies, and temporary content?

Kreaven.3172:

Avonelle.7465:

Well said. I find the class still fun..until i look around

lol you responded to your own post.

No. They responded to a troll whose post was deleted.

ilr.9675:

I find the “new content” particularly tedious for a Ranger.
The revolving Force-Walls in AetherRetreat was only 1 example.

The increase in Jump Puzzles & popup mobs where we also have to constantly switch pets from passive to aggressive is also a particularly annoying trend. I’m sure we’ll see even more example in the coming months… (along with even more content-bias against rangers once “rewards” are rebalanced around early fall)

Aetherblade Retreat I do agree was not ever playtested with a ranger. Nor was the Southsun ‘dungeon’ (both single and multi-player). All other Living Story and holiday content was perfectly fine with a ranger. Only those two made me grumble as the game forced me to play an alt.

You know … I love how some of us are even elitist kittens against others of our class, despite the fact that we’re all in the same boat. It makes me happy to see us fight so.

/sarcasm

I mean seriously? We really doing this? Trying to call people out and malign them instead of help them in a much more productive manner? We’re better than this, fellow rangers.

Terkov.4138:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Class balance is not handled by the Living Story teams. More story content should not be held back until all classes are perfectly balanced. If that were the case they’d never be able to do more story content.

And this does come from someone who still does main a ranger.

Then I’m afraid we’d never see new content. In GW1, even with no new gear tiers or increasing lvl cap, they were doing balance changes till the end. Some of them were very big, like totally changing effects of elite skill (and elites there were “cores” of builds).

Exactly.

The bigger threat to our class balance is not Living Story. Living Story is fine continuing as is. It’s the fact that it seems that class balance is only balanced around sPvP, to the detriment of WvW and PvE.

Class balance is not handled by the Living Story teams. More story content should not be held back until all classes are perfectly balanced. If that were the case they’d never be able to do more story content.

And this does come from someone who still does main a ranger.

Ordin.9047:

I think that they need to slow down a tad and release some quality content.

Please wait until the content is out before you malign it.

Reinhard.8947:

SynfulChaot.3169:

As I keep saying, my suggestion is not to exclude. It is simply to try to get people to try out more stuff not necessarily in PvE.

With all due respect, who appointed you arbiter of others’ choices of activities within the game? Even if your intentions are good, do you have any idea how condescending that sounds?

I know my tastes. I don’t need to be ‘nudged’ to try anything. I partake of in-game activities that interest me, and I ignore those that don’t. Perhaps we should just leave each to his or her own, and stop worrying about who gets what points from where.

Stop trying to fix something that isn’t broken in the first place.

You do realize that ArenaNet does Living Story content to try to ‘nudge’ people to do it and put an achievement cache from what was otherwise PvE content into WvW to try to ‘nudge’ PvEers into WvW, right?

I’m not trying to arbit anything. I don’t look down on anyone. It is simply a suggestion to possibly expand people’s horizons.

You say it isn’t broken. Right now nearly half or more of many players achievements are solely from dailies. As this progress that amount will only get greater to the point where it is mostly from dailies. If someone new starts playing how will you suggest for them to get the top stuff? Do dailies for a year? It may not be broken right now, but with time it will quickly become so.

Djemo.7153:

Yet when they “remedy it” (read remove dailies and monthlies) PvE players will be faaaaaar ahead of the PvP ones, due to all the achievements they did.

Even if they make our WvW and sPvP achievements easier and more sane it still doesent change the fact that you already have tons of them done, while we, even with these changed achievements dont have them done.

Isnt that the same injustice you people are crying about when it comes to new players not able to catch up?
How will we catch up to PvE? Are we forgoten here?

The remedy I’m talking of here isn’t the removing of dailies and monthlies. It is giving WvW and PvP players more points they can earn so those sections have as many points as the non-event and non-Living Story PvE sections. If that happened you wouldn’t be left in the dark and you would be caught up to PvE.

Rouven.7409:

Secret of Southsun: 235 points
Flame & Frost: 147 points
SAB: 106 points
Dragon Bash: 195 points
Sky Pirates: 193 points

876 points

Compare average 5 points for daily – 175 days

That says people only do the minimum. You can get up to 15 per day. That makes it about 58 days. Also, there is the monthly achievements for up to 110 a month. Factor that in an it’s about 51 days. Under two months for the same number of points as content that has spanned nearly 9 months.

Rouven.7409:

While this is a noble goal I don’t think this is the right way, you have to give people options and choices. Not everyone wants to create a character from every race to get all the points there, not everyone wants to get 250000 WvW kills.

Don’t underestimate the pressure that many people will put on themselves. Even now many will likely try to do all daily achievements and will try to complete all achievements they haven’t looked at before – just to speed up the process. People who don’t want to slay 1000 ettins have the choice not to – and that I think is a way better option.

It will be way more of a perceived grind if you would remove the dailies.

You can’t say you are excluding anyone if you leave the daily – all it could potentially do is prolong the time. You would however exclude people if you remove them – that would not be “play how you like” anymore at all.

Many will press themselves to unlock things as quickly as possible, yes. But by including the daily it will press more people into grinding the extra daily categories just to get there. It already isn’t, unfortunately, ‘play how you like’. It hasn’t been for a long time.

And what about people who start playing now? If the scale is set including dailies, the rewards will require many, many days to get the good stuff. So a new player that hits all the other content will need to wait a long time to grind out their dailies just to catch up instead of just doing the content as is.

Unfortunately, no matter what we do someone will feel screwed by it. And even with good intentions, we get accused of elitism and general kitteny.

Djemo.7153:

Not necessarily in PvE?
Where pray tell then are you implying one should get them?
Is there a magical part of this game we are all unaware of?

As it stands the majority of it is in PvE.
This isnt a PvE patch hence i dont see why it should adhere to the PvE community.
Its the patch for all of us, and the armor and weapons hidden behind these achivement checkpoints are not legendaries, they are just another skin.

A skin that dedication in whatever way expressed to this game should be rewarded to.
And as it stands theres enough e-kitten items in this game, the achievements and the skins related to them need not be another of these.

Must I repeat myself yet again? Ok. Here it is:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Like I said before, I am aware that WvW and PvP achievements are not on par for points as PvE and would need to be fixed as to be in line with PvE.

I know that WvW and PvP achievements are not in line with PvE. Anyone who has ever looked at them knows. Now if they remedy that, then this argument is entirely moot.

Djemo.7153:

Ok let me close this cause you cant see it from my perspective.
Your good intentions are directed towards yourself, and your likeminded PvE loving players. WvW players have nothing to gain from your good intentions, sPvP players have nothing to gain either.

Only thing they will gain is frustration when they realize they have been shafted for the innumerable time again because they like a different mode than their fellow players. PvE players just have to get over the fact that theres a big part of this games population who does things differently, and they will not change this unless the PvP players themselves want to.

I go to PvE when i want to help a friend, a guildie or when theres some content that came out and peaked my interest. Other than that theres not a single good intention in forcing me to part from my fun so someone else can have their way.

Riddle me this:

What is all the WvW players petitioned that every single person that didnt have a set amount of time in WvW helping their server prosper be denied all the buffs that you so freely and carelessly enjoyed for whatever time you spent in this game.
Now imagine if we could replicate this experience, all of your dungeons, all of your gathering on any node, all your HP/healing power boosts, all your crafting critical successes.

Gone, just gone.
Why? Cause we felt like shafting someone who isnt even related to us or is in no way threatening to our playstyle.
If we dont promote stupid things i would implore the other half of this games community to do the same.

I wont, repeating myself for whatever time, WONT do slayers.
And a removal of dailies/monthlies from the pool will be found with a not so pleasing response from a huge part of the games audience.
Which trust me will hurt more if people just pack their bags then if people find it in themselves to weed out that seed of jelaousy for everyone who has the same armor as them.

Ok. It seems I have a lot to straighten out here for you.

My view is not solely for PvE. It is for everything. Like I said before, I am aware that WvW and PvP achievements are not on par for points as PvE and would need to be fixed as to be in line with PvE.

I am not trying to deny things from anyone. But look at the situation this way. Right now, for those at the upper end of the scale (people well above me) over/about half of their achievement points come from dailies. As the game progresses more and more of their points will be from then. At that point is it ‘Achievement Rewards’ or ‘Daily Achievement Rewards’. At that point all that will really matter is the dailies. And that would be a shame if that is all that the system devolved into. How many days you did your daily.

And of the WvW thing? I don’t rely or care about those rewards. I’d still be where I am new even without them. And many of your WvW compatriots already want to do that. I’ve seen the more selfish members of that community push for that again and again.

And on the slayer achievements? I don’t grind them. If they happen they happen, but I’m in no rush to make that happen.

As to the last point. Jealousy. Yeah. I don’t care who does or does not have certain armour. If I like armor I will go for it. If I don’t, I won’t. I don’t care about having something someone else can’t get. That’s terribly anti-social behaviour I disdain in all. As I keep saying, my suggestion is not to exclude. It is simply to try to get people to try out more stuff not necessarily in PvE.

LordByron.8369:

OP is too concerned to preserve is top 500 ranks to the point to ask a change of rules to help him keep his rank ____

I think you should play for fun and not for a rank….

Agreed. If you’re not enjoying what you do, then why are you doing it in the first place?

Supercharged.8914:

Why are so many of these “high achievement points” players so selfish? (cough* elitism cough*)

Not every player has time to login for hours a day so dailies/monthlies become their only source of achievement points.

ANET has always wanted a level playing field. For instance in GW2, cheap exotics at 1-2g each has the same stats as a 1500g legendary. This is still evident in GW1 too.

Don’t take it too seriously. It is only a game

I hope you’re not speaking of me. My count is not that high. My suggestion is solely to try to get people to try out more of the game. I wasn’t aware that doing so made me an elitist.

Djemo.7153:

The current system is fine and well, if people want to try something they will.
Forcing people into something on the other hand just so they can get a reward is definately not the way to go.

And cause you and others of your train of though wouldnt care about butchering your points doesent mean people of mine would agree on those terms.

Cause in the end when we are stripped of our dailies and monthlies the PvE players, who are already far ahead (you seem to be one) will still be allot less phased then WvW and sPvP players would.

If you take your time to read the WvW achivements you should realize just how ridiculous they are compared to “sit in Harathi Hinterlands and punch a set amout of centaurs in the face”.
So my 4.7 points could well be something like 2k or whatnot, and thats just not right for someone who played 2.5k hours. I deserved those points no more than someone who isnt arsed to do Slayers or puzzles. So are the rest like me which are a huge part of this game.

For that system to work well, they would need to revamp the WvW and PvP point scaling as to not unfairly punish WvW and PvP players. I am aware of the state of those sections and how much harder WvW and PvP players need to work to get achievement points. It’s not a perfect system and with those sections the way they are, perhaps it is untenable. But the base idea behind it is with nothing but good intentions.

Djemo.7153:

It would still hurt the people who spread their attention across all aspects of the game yet excel in none.
Dailies/Monthlies are the only things keeping any achievement score up for those people cause they dont play a single aspect of the game zealously enough to achieve an achievement attributed to the individual aspects of the game.

You realize that my suggestion would also butcher my points as well, right? Nearly half of my points are from dailies and monthlies. And many of my in-game hours are from RPing, which gives me zero points.

Yes, it would hurt people’s total scores. But it would also be a system that would nudge people into trying new things and wouldn’t just reward dailies more than anything else.

I’m not saying it’s the best system, nor the worst. Just one that might have the potential to bring people into different stuff if only for a short while.

Djemo.7153:

@Synful

While an noble endeavour its in a small part a greedy one as well.

Myself i have 2.5k hours spent into this game and only 4.7 ac points.
Ive spent time in every aspect of the game.
Ive owned in sPvP. Since every single one of my dungeon runs was a pug group i had countless times in my quest for the Arah sets been forced to finish off Lupi alone (not bragging).

Ive done jumping puzzles, ive done living stories (MF was kittenawesome and i hope for more) and in the end of it all i settled in WvW. Hence why with such a huge playtime im really low on the points.

If someone enjoys one aspect of the game (i have friends who only sPvP, and its their right to continue to do so) then i say let them.
If they are unwilling to go and kill 10k ogres they should not be bloody forced to.

So what we are left is people who are disgrunted that their aspect of the game is in shambles (reffering to PvE) and are trying to get people back into doing things in PvE aside from these occasional living stories.

Cause we all can agree whole areas are barren and devoid of players, but we the players of WvW or sPvP or the whatever else people do in this game should not be penalized cause we dont coform to your ideals of farming NPCs or jumping around in a cave.

Its the devs who need to make PvE areas more compelling and worthwhile (which they said they are working on in that new video in the news).

I don’t find it greedy at all. I’m not trying to get anything more than anyone else, nor am I trying to exclude anyone from anything. Again, I am speaking simply of having it used to try to nudge people into trying new things. (This includes myself as well. I know full well there are sections I typically avoid)

I will agree that both WvW and PvP need better/more points from their achievement trees. If all achievement sections, PvP, WvW, and PvE each had the same number of points and you didn’t need to go outside your section, would excluding the dailies still be abhorrent?

deviller.9135:

SynfulChaot.3169:

It is just something that I am suggesting. As it stands right now, a large majority of points comes from dailies. As time progresses, that majority will only get larger until it is almost entirely from dailies. Now I have no problem with this, I do think it would be a bit of a misnomer to call it just ‘Achievement Point Rewards’ if in reality it is ‘Daily Achievement Point Rewards’ with a slight bonus if you did anything else.

Can you give me a data, what is % of daily and monthly AP for people which have 10k AP in this (almost) 1 year of GW2 ?

Daily/monthly achievement will be bigger and bigger. This is known fact, but again its need time. Even in 1 year, this daily/monthly AP is not higher than AP total of all achievements from normal activities. But Anet will release new content with new achievement. In addition, they have plan to release new expansion (if not scrapped) in the future which will give you a ton new achievement to be done.

I know that I am still under 7k. I have all event/living story completion (out of personal OCD and nothing else) and my daily/monthly portion is nearly 50% of my total, even after taking nearly a one month break from dailies.

Djemo.7153:

Its not elitism to deny people points from something just cause you dont deem it worthy enough to be counted?
Yeah case example of elitism right there.

It’s not that I don’t deem it worthy enough. It’s that it would not push people to try other things. Nothing more and nothing less.

Djemo.7153:

And i was reffering to the people that flaunt their Slayer achivement and the like (jumping puzzles? seriously?) as something that is somehow a better and more rewarding experience. Hence i say its not, cause it takes no skill (hence why should it differ from dailies) to kill a set amount of brainless NPCs.

Some may. I do not. I just feel that it would be nice to at least nudge players into trying more things out for the points instead of only doing their dailies.

Djemo.7153:

I play PvE, sPvP and WvW, but i play WvW the most.
I have 3 characters in Arah sets, and the rest in SE.

And unlike most here i dont give a rats kitten if someone gets those sets the way he wants. If its dailies its noones kittenig buisness to tell him otherwise.

Again I will have no complaints regardless of whether dailies are or are not included in the implementation. I am pretty sure that you and many others in this thread have many more achievement points as I have.

My opinions draw strictly from what I feel would make more people see more of the game. If dailies are included, I will fear that many will only focus on doing just as much of the dailies as possible to maximize their count and ignore the other facets of the game as the dailies provide more points for the time spent.

It is not out of elitism. It is out of desiring for more people to come out and see more of the game than just what the dailies provide. Nothing more and nothing less.

Djemo.7153:

I think me and my guild (and ofc similar experienced people) fending off 2v1, 3v1 or even more odds in WvW against competent players time and time again is more of a skillful achievement then you killing GASP a thousand brainless NPCs.

Get your head out of your kitten. Your NPC farming for achivements is no more epic than a dude that logs in every day and does a daily.
Hence this elitist bullkitten is pointless.

Umm … we’re not discussing elitism here, but whether or not we think dailies should count towards the total … for reasons other than elitism.

And your comment here reeks of elitism itself, good sir. If you don’t have something to contribute, then to troll elsewhere. Thank you.

GoddessHrist.8472:

SynfulChaot.3169:

So … you’re saying you want all the good rewards, but don’t want to consider trying anything new to get them? That’s like saying you want the WvW armor set but don’t want to do WvW.

That’s a poor analogy. WvW armor is tied to WvW in general and there are many ways to earn Badges of Honor within WvW. Your method of requiring core achievements would be like requiring X number of towers capped, X number of dolyaks killed, and X number of players killed in order to buy the armor. If I want to only solo supply camps, I can still eventually earn enough Badges to buy the armor. I have player choice.

If you go re-read the post on Achievement Point Rewards, you’ll see statements like “Every point that you’ve earned while adventuring across Tyria will count towards exciting rewards.” This is a system for rewarding achievement points in general, not specific subsets of achievements like the system you are trying to create.

It is just something that I am suggesting. As it stands right now, a large majority of points comes from dailies. As time progresses, that majority will only get larger until it is almost entirely from dailies. Now I have no problem with this, I do think it would be a bit of a misnomer to call it just ‘Achievement Point Rewards’ if in reality it is ‘Daily Achievement Point Rewards’ with a slight bonus if you did anything else.

GoddessHrist.8472:

SynfulChaot.3169:

GoddessHrist.8472:

No, one is choice (daily vs core achievements) and the other isn’t. Please explain what choice I have if I’ve done all the core achievements I’m interested in but need more points.

If the system implemented does not count daily/monthly points, then it will not require points that are not there. You won’t need those points.

So let’s imagine a hypothetical solo player who doesn’t like endless grind. Dungeon achievements are no good for a solo player, Slayer and Weapon Master take forever to max, Fashion requires a ton of gold. Is this guy screwed over or will the points required be extremely low? Will he be forced to complete a bunch of achievements that don’t interest him?

Including daily points expands player choice.

So … you’re saying you want all the good rewards, but don’t want to consider trying anything new to get them? That’s like saying you want the WvW armor set but don’t want to do WvW.

GoddessHrist.8472:

No, one is choice (daily vs core achievements) and the other isn’t. Please explain what choice I have if I’ve done all the core achievements I’m interested in but need more points.

If the system implemented does not count daily/monthly points, then it will not require points that are not there. You won’t need those points.

Xenlai.8694:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Does it matter how high one’s personal achievement points are at? So long as you have enough to get what you want, does the number matter?

Apparently it does. If people care about the personal AP it’s their choice and their way of playing this game. Just because you don’t care doesn’t mean everyone else shouldn’t either.

I didn’t say they should not. But capping will slow everyone down. Most that would want that already have lots of points so their reason would be so they can stay ahead of others and slow them down. And that’s kinda not cool.

If you want to have a high score, good for you. If you want the high score by keeping others from catching up? That’s just being a total kitten.

Like I said, it will depend what ArenaNet’s intentions are. Whether it will be high numbers that are mostly dailies/monthlies or lower numbers that are based on everything else.

As we don’t know which direction they have decided on or how high a point total will be required for anything (just because people are at 10k+ on the leaderboards does not mean that that will be a tier), we can do nothing but wait and see how they choose to implement it.

If dailies/monthlies are to be included, we will see very high point totals required for some categories. It won’t necessarily push people to try different things in the game, though, as a majority of your points will be from dailies and monthlies.

If they are not, the point totals needed for the gear will be much lower but they will push players into trying out more aspects of the game.

Both are acceptable solutions. I lean towards the latter as it would get more people to try out more of the game, but I cannot fault them for going for the first if they so choose to.

Tobbygnome.6793:

What if they made the most epic items up near the 10k AP mark anyway, people who have just done dailys for a year now would only have between 1800-3600 from dailys.

Like me i do dailys everyday and i only sit at like 2600 AP something low like that, if the new system said i needed 8k to unlock something i wanted i wouldn’t want to do dailys for the next 2 years to unlock it xD, i would still go and experience more of the game, daily AP is not enough, and that’s fine with me i will be happy doing achievements to unlock items, so i don’t really see that as being the problem either. :P ?

Please explain o/ ty

Just under half of my achievement points, and the largest percentage of them, come from my dailies and monthlies. And as the game goes on, more and more of those points will come from that category. At 8k+, I feel confident in saying that a great majority of a player’s points would be dailies and monthlies.

GoddessHrist.8472:

SynfulChaot.3169:

I just think it would be better to have unique awards for achievements that don’t already have intrinsic rewards to them as the dailies already have in the form of laurels.

So what is the reward for doing all the dailies instead of just the 5 easiest? If not tied to achievement points, then what?

If daily achievement points become relatively worthless, there will be no reason to earn them all. Why eliminate another way for ambitious players to distinguish themselves?

Ambitious players can distinguish themselves though pointing out how high their personal total is on the leaderboards if that is what they need to feel good. Not havign them count towards overall rewards would not make the points be any more or less worthwhile then they are right now.

Players, if daily/monthly points count, will never need to touch any other achievement category and will be able to unlock all rewards simply from dailies and monthlies. If the point is to get people to play more of the game then that point will fail. Per time spent dailies and monthlies award the most amount of points and already award the player with laurels.

Now if you want all rewards to be based entirely on dailies and monthlies, then yes, they should count. If you want rewards to be based on how much of the game that a player has actually experienced, then they should not.

Tobbygnome.6793:

AH ok i getcha now, you want ‘better’ rewards than titles and back pieces becoz it’s not fair that dailys give better ones and AP at the same time when they take 5 mins, sorry i didn’t read the entire thread it kind of repeats x50 times over you can’t blame me.

I don’t personally feel any certain way towards this discussion i’m just trying to figure out what the big fuss is about, they’re just achievement point after all, hehe.

Less about fair and more about getting people to experience more of the game, but yah.

Honestly I know what I’d prefer, but either way it is a good thing for everyone regardless.

Tobbygnome.6793:

But you said you wanted unique awards for achievements that don’t already have intrinsic rewards tied to them, but then those achievements do in the form of titles and back pieces, so what do you people actually want i’m confused.

If you feel that all Living Story achievements that rewarded a single back item or whatnot from the meta is as much reward as you need for all of that when dailies, which take much less time, reward money, karma, items, laurels, and experience then I don’t know what to tell you. If you really feel that that is enough reward then we can remove those too if it would make you feel better.

Honestly, I think that floppyjr has the right idea as to how to reward everyone without making anyone feel left out and with actually giving proper rewards for people who do more than just dailies.

PolarisNova.3867:

So some people are saying basically: “I have 10k points, it’s a really horrible idea that people might catch up with me, so that I don’t feel so special anymore!”

Some are, yes. Some are selfish like that. Others, like myself, don’t care about that ‘special’ thing. We just want to see rewards for the non-daily achievements seperate so as to give more incentive to do those achievement for the non-completionists.

Tobbygnome.6793:

But don’t some achievements have rewards too, like the little back items you get from the monthly carnival achievements, and titles, or am i wrong, i might be wrong.

Some do. Most of them are meta achievements from Living Story that require several other, but not usually all, achievements in that category. That is only Living Story content, though. Other categories, like Slayer, Hero, Tradesman, and Explorer don’t have any real intrinsic rewards outside of maybe a title.

floppyjr.3459:

People are looking at this assuming that the reward “tiers” will be based on solely on the overall AP score.

What if Anet, categorizes rewards based on the player’s AP per category ( PVP, WvW, etc ). There is no meaning for a non WvW player to receive a “+10% World XP bonus” simply because he reached xxx AP.

So all this qq on daily/monthly APs having of equal AP value to some of the hard to get achievements can be solved by rewarding each achievement category differently.

samples:
Category – reward
xxx AP on Monthly/Daily Category – different endless tonics
xxx AP on Dungeon/Fractal related Category – Armor set / weapons
xxx AP on WvW related Category – Armor set / +world XP bonus
xxx AP on general PVE – mini pets / Armor set / weapons / MF bonus
xxx AP on PvP – cool finishing moves / Armor set

That would be a great way of doing it. So there still is some unique reward for people doing different content. Which should be the point of it in the first place.

Again to all people thinking me a selfish kitten … I do very little WvW and no PvP so there would be stuff here with this suggestion I would not have access to.

Tobbygnome.6793:

Sooo lemme get this straight now people are arguing about Daily AP being counted towards the points thingy, ooookkkaayy lemme see.

So the ppl who go kill 1000 squirrels of each color want the skins a couple weeks before the ppl who just do dailys, am i right? And then… and then wat, and theeeen after a couple weeks everyone else \o/ goes and kills 1000 squirrels of each color and gets the skins too, and then everyone is like “Duh!! Everyone has these stupid skins i don’t feel unique anymore!!” and then that’s it i guess. lol

To me it’s not about ‘getting it first’. I honestly don’t care about that. I just think it would be better to have unique awards for achievements that don’t already have intrinsic rewards to them as the dailies already have in the form of laurels.

GoddessHrist.8472:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Because dailies/monthlies are already rewarded. Nothing else (aside from Living Story meta-achievs) are rewarded. Should we reward people who do dailies and monthlies more than everyone else by rewarding them twice? I, personally, don’t believe so.

Why shouldn’t it reward twice? Completing an event gives gold, karma, and experience. That’s a triple reward! Dailies give laurels, gold, karma, experience, mystic coins, and bonus items. That’s… you get the point. So what if there’s another reward for dailies? The alternative is no reward for doing the extra achievements.

Jumping puzzles have chests. Dungeons have gold, karma, and tokens. Let’s remove the achievements for those so we don’t have any double rewards. I could go on…

Dailies/monthlies reward achievement points, laurels, money, karma, and items. They already award more than practically every other activity. Why add more reward to them when they already need no further incentive to do them?

Also.

Two dailies = one jumping puzzle or mini-dungeon. Three dailies = all paths of all non-Arah dungeons. Four dailies = all paths of Arah. And that is only counting minimal work to complete a daily. If you did all daily options, PvP and PvE, you’d get the equivalent in points of three dailies per day. Dailies award far more in points than anything else. So by doing nothing but dailies for a short while, you will have more points than someone doing more than the same rote daily activities each day. And that would basically mean doing those activities for achievement points is no longer worth doing on a time/benefit analysis.

GoddessHrist.8472:

SynfulChaot.3169:

The problem with having dailies and monthlies add in for the rewards is that then there is no additional push to do anything but dailies and monthlies to get your reward. You can just do you dailies and get them eventually. So where would the impetus to try out other things come from?

On what basis do you suggest this reward system is intended to push players into trying other things?

Because if you can’t just get them from dailies and monthlies then you will need to try out other aspects of the game and get those achievements to get the rewards.

Again, please note that I have stated that I have done most all of the dailies and monthlies and my opinion here would impact me as well. This opinion is not out of staying ahead of others. I don’t care about that kitten. It is about what I feel would make for more incentive to players to try out more of the game.

akamon.2769:

again, i fail to see the point being made of those who are asking for dailies not to count, and pointing themselves out to be one of the few with highest achievements points…

I’d think the same even if my current points were reset. I just feel that there should be reward for doing the non-daily achievements, and were the dailies to be counted then that would be rewarding those points double. Maybe just put less weight to the daily points?

Note: I’ve done most all the dailies and monthlies since they were implemented. Not counting them would massively lower my count as well. And as I don’t really PvP or WvW, my count would fall much more than many others.

Mardermann.7468:

yeah I am sorry.. I am just so angry cause of all the lost time and equipment…
I tried to play with the class after the patch… (actually since beta) I really tried.
No I am really really disheartened…

But you are right… I will shut up now and read on what great ideas the not disheartened playerbase actually has (and I mean that – really great ideas – no irony here)

I’m frustrated as well. My equipment is not as good as it used to be either. I’m actually not changing my gear until the class receives more attention as I’d prefer to not have to waste my money (and transmute crystals) multiple times just to stay viable. I just want to help the class reach it’s full potential. That and I’m too stubborn to leave my main that I have sunk 2,307 hours into.

GoddessHrist.8472:

Laurels do not reward going above and beyond the required 5 dailies / 4 monthlies. I could have earned the same number of laurels in 25% the time if I only did the easiest achievements instead of completing them all. The daily system was designed from the start to award points for extra effort.

True. It does. But dailies and monthlies are still rewarded by laurels. True that not all the extra categories count, but there is already a reward mechanism for them.

GoddessHrist.8472:

And dailies are a part of the game. Living Story achievement points will catch and surpass daily points as the primary point source at the current rate of introduction. So do we cap Living Story points, too? Why force players to focus on specific content in order to earn a reward for dedication to the game in general?

Because dailies/monthlies are already rewarded. Nothing else (aside from Living Story meta-achievs) are rewarded. Should we reward people who do dailies and monthlies more than everyone else by rewarding them twice? I, personally, don’t believe so.

The problem with having dailies and monthlies add in for the rewards is that then there is no additional push to do anything but dailies and monthlies to get your reward. You can just do you dailies and get them eventually. So where would the impetus to try out other things come from?

Mardermann.7468:

Guys I honestly dont know why you are doing this threads any more.
Anet will do like they did before.
Fix something else completely (maybe we are not good enough under water?)

They will tweak the Longbow a bit (more damage to LB 3 or somesuch)
and then they will nerf something else a bit more (I think pets sometimes still hit someone in WvW – that, in my opinion, can not be)

We have these threads for positive dialogue and debate on trying to improve the class.

I think this is one of those cases of ‘if you don’t have something nice to say, don’t say something at all’. We know what has happened in the past. We cannot change that. We should not dwell on that. All we can do is try to work around it and continue dialogue on how to improve it.

GoddessHrist.8472:

Daily achievement points should remain included:

1. Removing daily points would be unfair to players who have invested time in earning them. Personally, I have spent hundreds of hours completing dailies since launch. If daily points are removed or capped, this all becomes wasted time.

That isn’t wasted time. You already received your reward for them. Laurels. Now if they removed your laurels, then it would be wasted time.

GoddessHrist.8472:

2. Daily achievement points are different than the salvage and dungeon tracks that were capped. Those two points sources were unlimited and could be acquired as rapidly as resources (time, money) allowed. Daily points are awarded at a more regulated pace that requires a time investment in playing the game.

That would still be rewarding us twice for the same work completed. We already earned our laurels. We don’t need to receive further reward from the same.

GoddessHrist.8472:

3. Achievements points are not intended to signify skill or feats accomplished, but instead the dedication of the player. The achievement article says “show off your dedication to your fellow players,” not “show off your skill” or “show off your feats.”

Dedication to the game. Not dedication to just doing your dailies.

GoddessHrist.8472:

4. Removing or capping daily points will not benefit casual or new players. Hardcore achievement hunters will always be ahead in points earned and Living Story achievements represent a significant number of missable points going forward.

I am totally down with a rework of the core achievement values, but daily points should not be retroactively changed.

I don’t think that daily points should be capped or removed. Just not counted when it comes to account rewards.

Lambent.6375:

I don’t see anything wrong with it either, if someone wants to get achievement points from simply doing dailies, and playing as they normally do, they should be allowed to do so. They (and I) logged in everyday to finish their dailies and get achievement points, and I don’t think that should be changed just because now all of a sudden some people think they don’t “deserve” it just because they didn’t get their points from jumping puzzles and what not.

I don’t even think dailies are responsible for that many points, I have yet to miss a daily since laurels have been introduced, and I’m currently hovering at 3,800+ points.

It’s not that anyone thinks you don’t ‘deserve’ it. Well, I might just because I don’t like the concept of entitlement and deserving at all. In that case I don’t think that I deserve it either.

I just feel that we are already rewarded with laurels and laurel rewards for logging in daily. We don’t need to reward for daily completion twice.

I hope enough people vote. I’d like the rewards but I hate Facebook with a burning passion.

Pixelpumpkin.4608:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Also, if these points did count then one could conceivably unlock everything with nothing but the dailies and monthlies.

Am I the only person who genuinely doesn’t see a problem with this?

I believe the goal of the new rewards is to give people even more incentive to log back in every day.

While there is a limit on how many AP you can make through dailies and monthlies, you can still do the other achievements for a big fat bonus.

If this would have been implemented from the start, nobody would have a problem with that.

Dailies and monthlies are the incentives to log in daily. This is an incentive to see what all the game has. Don’t need to double rewards for daily logging and not properly reward more than that.