Guild Wars 2

Evaluating the class would be easier if your Thief experience didn’t wildly vary depending on your own class. Warrs, Guards, and Engis probably don’t pay Thieves that much heed (although they do need to watch out for surprise non consensual relations), meanwhile, Elementalists of any build are just glorified Thief food – as per Phantaram’s stream. You could be running Clerics or Soldiers as an Ele and Thieves just lol. Bountiful Theft + Sleight of Hand is hilarious vs a class who’s best gimmick is boon stacking.

Helseth spot on, as always. I especially appreciate him noting how the devs seem to try and fix the symptoms of a disease instead of curing the disease – ex. removing tons of bleeds from Necromancers that weren’t a problem ever instead of fixing Dhuumfire. Now, they are changing the problematic trait but Necros have less bleeds than they used to.

It’s this type of development that is keeping the game from reaching its full potential.

Agreed, 100%. I don’t even play the game that much anymore, and this, on principle alone, makes me want to just not come back at all.

Unlocks in sPvP are single handedly the dumbest ideas ever implemented.

I cannot possibly fathom why you think “overwhelming” is why some people don’t play sPvP. They don’t play it because they think the PvP in this game isn’t very good. The way to fix this is not to make people grind for things in the game mode you told us we wouldn’t have to grind in.

SC2 and DOTA 2 don’t have any of this nonsense and plenty of noobs play them.

LOL has me grind for heroes and I don’t play it – for precisely this reason.

I tune in hoping for good changes just to hear this and turn off the stream.

I recognize that what I feel makes a good game might apparently be different than what your development team feels, and I guess that may make this post seem worthless, but nonetheless I thought that if there ever was a time to suggest a change for the character progression in the game, one of these threads would be it. Regardless of what comes of it, the creation of these threads deserves recognition, as at the very least, you are making the forum goers feel “heard” by the dev team. I can appreciate these attempts to listen to us and make us feel like part of the game’s growth.

I’m not sure what I can add about vertical progression, despite the fact that it’s something I feel strongly about. This is in part because the discussion around the subject has been framed around its “accessibility”. So it feels like all we can say about vertical progression is how we’d all like to have more varied venues in which to grind for it. Add it to WvW vendors for badges, allow us to use dungeon tokens for it, make them more convenient for alts, etc.

These are fine suggestions, but I must confess that this places me (and I suppose, people like me) in an odd position. People against its inclusion, that is.

This is my situation. I can only hope that I am not alone in this, and that, therefore, my small piece can serve to represent those like myself to you, the developers, so that at least you know we exist and still have great hopes for this game.

I am one of those players that came to this game based on pre-release marketing suggesting a lack of grinding for stats, and a relatively equal powerbase at 80 with very easy to acquire BiS gear. I know that you know the choice quote I’m talking about. Thus, you can imagine my surprise when the ease of acquiring Exotics was considered a problem instead of a positive!

What this effectively means is that any change to “accessibility” that does not amount to “easy and trivial to get, like Exotics” is meaningless to me, and those like me.

Farming 5000 Badges of Honor is preferable to grinding crafting to 500 only because you get BoH by killing people and this falls into the category of “things that I like to do in the game”. But grinding is grinding. I would have to repeat this process for every alt, and every time I wish to test a new build and see how it performs at the highest power level (which is also something that is being discussed in the thread and you’ve read about).

I suppose this places me at odds with a different audience. An audience that wants to slowly work towards their gear. And this is fine. Not every game is for every audience. That’s actually why I’m here. I’m here because I hated MMOGs, and I checked out Guild Wars 2.

It is from within these circumstances that I approach hoping that suggestions which encourage a less vertical and more qualitative implementation of Ascended gear are used in the future. People have already suggested the notion of Ascended gear that bears great quality of life abilities, like changing stats, instead of having flat out stat boosts, as possible alternatives. You have already read these suggestions – and no doubt have internally discussed their merits already. These would be my preferred implementation, but even as I say it, I recognize that such a thing applied retroactively would be fantasy.

I have but a single other suggestion I can make – and that is to consider the implementation of vertical progression in PvE as separate to WvW, as the implications for each mode are different. It seems that for the time being, you are content on focusing on horizontal progression, something that I most definitively agree with. That being said, I don’t know what will happen in the future. I do not know whether Ascended sigils, runes or higher quality Infusions lie in the works.

You could find that due to the cooperative nature of PvE in this title, and the fact that no content beyond Fractals exist for which Ascended gear is intended, the existence of such progression creates only minor competition between players. It could continue to serve its function as a goal that is harder to reach than Exotics but less so than a Legendary. Players could still progress their character by seeing small increments in numbers and this would minimally impact the progression and experience of other players.

WvW, on the other hand, directly pits player against player – those with and those without. New players already lack trait points and even the simple gear quality of Exotic – elongating the time of stat acquisition seems unnecessary as elements of vertical progression already existed within the mode, surely enough to “ease them in”. Furthermore, WvW features the one piece of content outside of Fractals that will slowly become more powerful over time – players. Mobs in PvE won’t grow stronger because of the vertical progression already in the game, but players will. Players who are new or who forsake grinding in lieu of “fun” or worse, simply have little time to play will face these more powerful enemies.

It is for that very reason that I usually avoid other MMOs. To fight other players at my best, I have to do what feels like endless grinding just to reach the same stats. I have to do it again if my build is nerfed or balance changes. It’s almost like I’m working, so that later, I can play. I just don’t think that makes for fun gameplay, which is what led me to this game.

Dumb idea, but what else is new in PvP?

And to think sPvP was supposed to be the one place where everyone was equal and didn’t have to grind to unlock anything. I guess things change.

I can’t wait till the one day sPvP players have to get As gear to be BiS too.

That game died, man.

Happy family friendly repost so as not to hurt the delicate:

LOL

As much as I can’t ignore the element of schadenfreude, this trait is looking pretty dumb. No skill needed hard counters are dumb and they are bad. A competitive game should showcase skill and decision making in battle – not whether or not you rolled the right class with the build that just happens to hard counter your enemy. The trait is also nearly useless if your opponent isn’t relying on conditions to fight you. It isn’t the only trait like this, but it’s still pretty silly. Feel like a boss against condi abusing classes – feel like you wasted a trait against anything else.

But whatever, this game doesn’t look like it’s improving any time soon.

Shar.3402:

What was that necros and other op kittens were saying months ago?

Oh yeah, learn to adapt.

On the one hand, seeing OP nonsense get what it deserves feels good. On the other, this trait is kinda dumb if it actually does allow Eles to faceroll condi builds by mere virtue of having it, instead of winning by skill.

Meh, at this point in the games history, I’m beginning to think you just reroll to whatever’s the flavor of the moment because the game doesn’t look it’s going to get any better.

No. And especially not for 25 flipping points. It’s 17 hours worth of glory for a stupid heal skill.

Seeing sPvP, the one, single mode in this game that has so far actually managed to be a grind-free, equal powerbase mode implement something gameplay related that requires brainless dumping of hours to unlock fills me with great cynicism for the game’s future.

aussieheals.6843:

I don’t want to build up my entire character but a small sense of unlocks is a very rewarding and balanced approach. It’s quite clearly the choice of the majority or at least the direction chosen by ArenaNet for good reason.

I haven’t heard any good reason for this change, nor have I seen any evidence that this is what the majority wanted. In all of my time visiting this forum I never read about anyone asking for new skills to require unlocking in sPvP.

I find it strange that you say that when ArenaNet are moving in the direction I prefer.

You find it strange that as a consumer I expect the product I bought to be like the product I was told I was going to buy? That’s why I’m against this implementation of new skills.

aussieheals.6843:

The best of my knowledge defending incoming changes generally means I like them, not sure how you would more clearly like me to put that to you ^^

Ok? You asked me if I liked them, for some reason. I know you approve of them.

Honestly, I didn’t think common sense would require citation. But as you wish: When you play monopoly do you like to own all the houses off the bat? OR is it more fun earning those houses before you bankrupt your opponent after an epic match during a black out.

sPvP isn’t trying to be like Monopoly. It has it’s own goals for the type of people that enjoy them. There are other games that have PvP that’s closer to your Monopoly example, where you have to build up your character. You can go to those.

The fact is, a vast amount of players ONLY enjoy PvP and don’t want to touch PvE or as you described ‘none competitive play’ although i’m not sure why they would have leader-boards but that’s a different topic. Anywho, those PvP only players would like that same ‘connection’ if I may call it that to their characters as PvE and WvWvW players do. Man that sounds corny but I can’t describe it in a better way.

Then there are many other games that cater to that desire you have. This one’s sPvP was designed for a different audience, that prioritizes an even competition, as per pre-release marketing.

It doesn’t matter how much I practice, brick walls always give the same answer

Brick walls can’t talk, so that’s probably why they always answer the same way. They can’t help you practice.

None. It’s nothing more than the laughable grinding nonsense of so many other MMO’s, the same ones I avoided and hoped to continue avoiding by coming to this one.

The more elements this game has in common with those “other” MMO’s the less reasons I have to stay. If I’m going to grind for gear, it might as well be in games tailor made for that type of content that do it much better.

aussieheals.6843:

I think you might be confused friend, I’m happy with the changes coming, you’re not?

By reading my previous posts that answer should be evident. Not sure why I’d be confused, as I’m responding to your comment directly, as opposed to this question that doesn’t have anything to do with what I wrote.

Research would indicate that:
1) Everything is subject to change
2) ArenaNet (sometimes lol) provide what the community call for
3) Unlocking skills worked great and had next to no complaints in Gw1
4) You did purchase the game with everything unlocked but its been announced for a long time that new skills are coming.

You haven’t cited anything for that “research”. It also doesn’t have anything to do with the arguments quoted.

EXACTLY! Why should all other aspects of the game get it when the majority of people purchased the game for PvP?

How do you know this? PvE can have these elements because it doesn’t feature competition between players and having to unlock things doesn’t place anyone at a disadvantage. I don’t know why it’s in WvW – but if that’s what you want for PvP you can go there. sPvP was designed to place everyone on even footing immediately.

You do realize that <a fortnight for a dedicated player or < a month basically is right off the bat.

No? If it isn’t already unlocked automatically it isn’t “right off the bat”.

We all have our opinions – Some of us just like to make sense with ours

Keep practicing and you’ll get it.

aussieheals.6843:

4) I didn’t mention any of these because they are off topic.

Not sure why now is a good time, though it looks like you might be more at home in another game. PvE and WvW, at least, do contain some elements like those you described. A consumer that had done some research before purchase would know that the sPvP in this game would be unlike the PvP encountered in many other MMOs by allowing you to be equal to anyone off the bat, with access to everything unlocked.

A new player is going to feel so good that every few rounds they are going to unlock a new skill therefore holding there interest and give them incentive to join the grind. They are going to gain a deep understanding of each skill as it unlocks and therefore assisting them at being great in there class.

Citation needed. I know I’d quit before starting, and I know that’s part of why I haven’t participated in other MMOs and part of why I came to this one, based on doing research on this game before purchase. You’d also have to provide evidence indicating how arbitrarily preventing players from using certain skills would somehow lead them to master skills better as opposed to practicing with said skills by choice.

Not only this but it creates a connection with the character you built up from nothing.

You have PvE and WvW for that, in addition to unlocking ranks or cosmetics in sPvP as symbols of your progress.

So lets use your example that someone joins years down the track and needs to unlock skills. Even in the current meta there are 8 skills, you can unlock those 8 skills first. Just because there are 2,000,000 skills doesn’t mean you can’t choose which ones you unlock.

The player shouldn’t have to unlock them in the first place. He should be able to catch up to the meta instantly and be competitive right off the bat.

Please, view this with an open mind

I keep an open mind – to good ideas.

The “new players are overwhelmed with stuff” argument doesn’t sound too convincing to me. You could use it to justify any change without providing sound reasoning.

“8 classes are too overwhelming for new players, so we decided that new players should start with a safe class like the Warrior and work their way to unlocking the other classes.”

“All of these traits are overwhelming new players with too many choices, so they have to unlock them through leveling just like in PvE. So they have a chance to get to know the starting ones.”

Etc.

How would a new player feel going into the game months or years down the line only to find that he has to grind countless points just to have as many choices as older players? It’s this type of situation that sPvP was built to avoid. Why change it now? sPvP is the only place in the game where everyone is on an equal base footing. I’m not convinced this needs altering.

Requiring skills be unlocked in PvP would be an extraordinarily bad change, for reasons already written down.

This change would violate the spirit of the PvP we were led to believe would be in the game. I’m swimming in skill points, but in principle alone I cannot abide the idea that new players or players with many alts have less choices than I do in the game mode, instead of being able to log in and automatically be equal to me.

If new skills are added some of these could presumably change the meta – and I cannot accept the possibility that a new player might be forced into using less powerful or useful skills simply by virtue of not having played the game as long as I have.

Zayeban.2806:

Then they will start to add raids to the game. Tequatl served as a test and is the proof that raids can be done. He is proof that hard content can exist for a fixed number of players attending it. That hard bosses with even more and complex tactics can be made possible. This would not only please “hardcores” but also guilds, which would now have something new to do.

Meaningful content was the solution the game could have used – instead they opted for the trap of vertical progression. Soon, they’ll be at the same position they were before. Will they decide to add good content this time? I suppose they could, but that’s not what they did before – they could just keep their donkeys moving forward by dangling a carrot in front of their faces. Should they change it up now?

cesmode.4257:

Will people complain, and arenanet reveal some other bogus non sense claiming it was part of the plan? Time will tell.

I’ve no doubt that if such things were ever to occur, like an Infusion with +250 might, I’d still read typical apologist garbage like “those stats don’t make a difference, only noobs think stats matter in a game where every interaction with the enemy is determined by stats to the point where a game mode was developed with the express intent to keep everyone with equal statistics in recognition of this fact” and “this game doesn’t have a gear grind, upgrades don’t count even though they make you do the same thing anyway”.

So… what’s going to happen now? Once “everyone” or the “hardcores” or whomever finishes all their ascended gear… what then? Will there be “nothing to do”, just like it was at release when everyone “got their exotics and left”?

What is Arenanet going to do to keep these people playing? Supposedly, Ascended gear stops here, right? So what are these people going to be doing? How’s Arenanet going to settle this? The people that get their gear quickly will be done and they’ll be at exactly the same place they were when all there was were exotics. “got gear what do now?”

What’s next? How will these people be satisfied? If the entire point of vertical progression is to keep people busy by grinding out better stats, what’s going to happen now that it’s supposedly going to stop?

Because I sure hope it’s not going to be something like increasing the level cap or introducing infusions with higher stats or something, because then I’d have to lol at all the “GW2 doesn’t have a gear treadmill” and “the stat differences are small so it doesn’t matter” apologist nonsense I read in the olden days.

Still not sure what the hell the problem was in the first place. Exotics are too easy to get? Wasn’t that the whole point? Isn’t what how gearing in the game was marketed? I knew full well they’d be easy to get. That’s why I got the game in the first place. I dunno, but apparently, as a consumer, I should appreciate how they want to waste my time getting to exactly the same place I was before – BiS.

John Corpening.9847:

Only new skills will require unlocks.

That’s the problem we are noting. We knew that old skills would not need to be unlocked. PvP players should have these new skills unlocked by default. If these new skills turn out to be the new meta, new players would be at several skillpoints worth of a disadvantage. This goes against the nature of sPvP as it was originally marketed. I do not consider this a good thing. PvP players should be at equal footing, always, even if 100 new skills are added in the next 6 months, PvPers should have access to all of them so as to be able to compete with all of the necessary tools.

This is but a step behind “these new Runes we added require gold to unlock”. sPvP is the only place in the game where everyone is equal off the bat and requires no grinding. Let’s keep it that way. Don’t mistake the previous example for a slippery slope concern – I am using it to illustrate the feeling some players are getting when they hear “hey guys you get to grind some points to unlock PvP stuff”.

The number of skills currently in the game can be intimidating for new players.

Citation needed. How is a new player going to feel when he logs in 3 years from now and sees 100 new skills that he has to grind to unlock?

We would like to allow them some time to learn the base set while they work towards unlocking the new skills.

This is fine in PvE but has no place in a competitive setting. If you guys give Elementalists a new Elite skill with 30s cooldown everyone would use it just for Lyssa runes – and every new Ele that didn’t have it would be at a disadvantage and be a lesser threat than an older Ele player for no discernibly good reason.

I don’t think sPvP is the place for this kind of business. WvW already has these inter-player discrepancies and you know there are people who don’t like it on principle.

Johje Holan.4607:

Hopefully they fix it by getting rid of it.

It’s the only way to be sure.

I do not think removing existing content and rewards like rank and their finishers is warranted. Some people like them and they serve as extremely long term goals that don’t impact gameplay in the least and can’t even be seen until you get stomped. My problem with ranks was how so many gear pieces were locked behind them. Since you guys seem to be addressing this I do think removing them is worth the trouble.

I additionally share the concerns others have expressed towards unlocking PvP skills with skill points. This makes absolutely no sense to me. Players who play PvE and WvW have tons of skill points, while players that do nothing but PvP have none or few. What’s the reasoning in adding this sink for PvPers in the first place? Is that the whole point? As a gold sink? Why bother removing glory and substituting it with gold, then, if you might fear inflation without money sinks?

It also seems to go against the entire spirit of PvP – that a brand new player can go into sPvP and still have every choice available to him without any disadvantage, with skill and skill alone as his only handicap.

There are many good things to look forward to but a few ideas that I don’t get.

First, removing ranks seems like a pointless change. Let people work towards them and earn those finishers as a “long term” type of goal – to demonstrate how long you’ve played the game. I’m not seeing a good reason to remove content already in the game that doesn’t hurt anyone. The only problem with ranks is that most rewards are locked behind the almost endless rank grind where it takes forever to earn any decent gear. If that’s being changed then there’s no reason to remove them.

Secondly, having to earn skill points for PvP skills makes no sense to me. The entire point of sPvP is that you go in and you are set for PvP, with everything unlocked. That’s part of the selling point of this game’s PvP versus the boring grinding in other MMO PvP modes. Most people are probably swimming in skill points but this removes potentially game changing choices away from new players and is, in principle, against the spirit of sPvP. Leave that for PvE and WvW.

Well played by Anet. A small step forward but a step forward nonetheless. I even logged in today.

If Anet continue making player friendly decisions like these I might just come back.

The only thing that surprises me is that people seem surprised that Anet would do this.

Of course they would. Why wouldn’t they? They’ve been making decisions like this since Nov. of last year. They made the same decision when they added Bloodlust to WvW, and despite almost universal protest from the community, left it in. Who cares about alts and pre-release marketing? Let’s put in some vertical progression gear that requires endless grinding. They don’t care. The community has shown that they don’t have to.

Every time they do something that upsets the community they’ve seen that it all dies down eventually and people keep buying stuff and playing the game despite their impotent whines. In fact, apologists and other such poor sheep emerge to defend their anti-consumer decisions. Why would they care?

As long as they keep making money and we keep playing they don’t have to care.

Watching all of this unfold is amusing. I don’t even really play anymore and it’s decisions like these that remind me of why I stopped. I keep thinking “maybe they’ll learn, maybe the game will get better” and then they go and do stuff like this and all of my doubts are gone.

Well played, Anet, well played.

Smiley.5376:

Wow. You want to nerf the only thing that allows a thief to survive when entering a big fight.

I actually think you believe that.

LOL No.

It’s especially fun on the classes that get spammable Elite skills, meanwhile some classes (like Ele) get their shortest Elite at 120s. So fun to fight Thieves with stability and protection every 45 seconds.

And that is called “Balanced”.

You guys are fighting a losing battle, especially with so many apologists for stupid, unbalanced crap like this.

The only way to win in this game is not to play.

When Guild Wars 2’s WvW encourages less stupid zerging and grinding for rewards, WXPS and stats and allows you to just “have fun” without worrying about stats, as advertised, then you should you play.

It’s not like there’s a sub. You lose nothing by playing other games that don’t treat you like a hamster on a wheel. When this idiocy is fixed then you can come back.

The more you log in to WvW, the more metrics Anet has that lies to them insinuating you are happy with the state of the game and they have done no wrong.

Just take a leave. The only thing devs understand is numbers. Rational arguments do not work, as the ever increasing amount of stuff you have to grind to be at max stats indicates.

There is no reason to give your free time to developers who so easily ignore the crowd the game was marketed towards in the first place. If they see a big enough dent in numbers, perhaps then, they will realize their folly.

If that never happens then you also win – you get to move on to games that respect your time and intelligence. Being able to avoid the people that actually want to keep this nonsense is just a bonus. They’ll be just as happy to be rid of you, so everyone wins.

I found out that the best way to get all these WXP ranks out of my mind is to not grind for them at all. My GW2 time is now limited to occasionally visiting the forums to see if the PvP in this game ever improves to a somewhat playable state. I’m fine with this, because there are plenty of other games that deserve my time and money until such a time that this game reaches its true, horribly squandered potential.

Galen Grey.4709:

Thats not what it means. The iron branch helped a little bit getting one of those two killed but it is not what did it the most. If everything else was equal (ie same character at same level with same upgrade and same skill players just you got an iron branch extra you wouldnt manage to kill one of your 2 attackers) The iron branch is important though because it helps a bit bridge the gap.

Yes, please explain to me what Purge said and explained himself, since you obviously know better than he does. Actually, don’t. Because you are wrong. Because Tread switching for 20 hp is often the one thing that saves you or allows you to get that one kill. Which is what Purge explained, paraphrasing, “Well, guys looks like that switch was the one thing that saved me. The small things matter guys don’t let anybody tell you otherwise”. I don’t know in how many ways I can say the same thing just to have you not understand. I’m beginning to suspect that you might not be able to read english well.

What I would really love to know though is why you’re fighting for a small statistical advantage in DOTA and telling my how crucial it is for the balance of the game while saying exactly the opposite for Gw2. Because I hope you realise Ascended gear is your iron branch in a way right?

Just more evidence that you can’t read. I’m not fighting for statistical advantages – at all. If you read the conversation you’d understand that the DOTA instance is to demonstrate that even small differences can be a big deal in PvP.

As for everything else… please stop replying to my irrelevant questions, I just want you to reply to one important question, the most crucial question of them all. How will removing Ascended gear make balance better in WvW. You said its been said before, I just dont see it. all I’ve been reading is, its more powerful and hard to get. None of that proves removing it will improve balance one bit. But if you think its been said, prove me wrong and Quote it. Thats all you got to do.

Now I know you can’t read.

Shiver.5903:

The big difference with Ascended is also how you can get it, time-gates, how much time you must invest in activites you might dislike, how it is casual/newplayer/alt unfriendly, etc, where Exotics are accessible through all the game formats/modes.

Someone could argue Exotics is hard to get. In the end, the objective is to have an even field to compete, so like many others have stated, if players were to be down-scaled to blue in WvW, I wouldn’t mind, it would still achieve the same objective as removing Ascended from WvW, i.e. making it more balanced.

Perfect balance doesn’t exist in these games, but the idea here is GW2 Game Balance Team can work towards it, instead of against it.

That’s just a random post I found by selecting a random page. At this point I can only surmise you are really just trolling, which I don’t doubt was already deducted by even the most casual readers of the thread.

One more thing The big picture is crucial even though you keep denying it. Playing ostrich and ignoring the other factors will not improve anything. Its like saying I want to help solve world famine so I am going to eat less because on paper that means there will be more food for everyone else. On paper yes thats helpful but in reality? if you dont buy food its not going to those in need, its going to sit on your groccers shelf until it rots away so looking at the big picture its not going to help.

Nobody is saying the big picture should be ignored. Nobody is saying Anet should never attempt to create more balanced server population matchups. Or deal with the stupid Bloodlust stuff, or whatever. We are simply talking about one thing in WvW. If you want to talk about how to destroy the Sith and finally balance the Force then feel free to create your own thread on it, or join in the multitude of threads that discuss other WvW problems.

Galen Grey.4709:

With all due respect I have a feeling its not about balance at all for you. Its just that you want to be as powerful as it can be without having to make an effort. Well sorry but WvW is not a battle about your engagements with the enemy. That alone is not a good enough reason to change anything.

Yes, doubt my intentions, Mr. “I’m not against removing As gear and am actually against As gear but am inexplicably defending it”.

I don’t even really know if I should keep posting. You kill your credibility all by yourself, I’m not needed here.

0/10

You need better bait.

I appreciate the troll attempt to get me to waste my time citing the entirety of the discussions held throughout the 12 page thread, including exchanges between the both of us, but you presumably have eyes and can read, so go do it.

Beyond the reasoning others have provided across the thread, you mean.

Galen Grey.4709:

Again you’re not listening I am not deviating the subject and I stating its all the same subject.

No, it isn’t. We’re talking about gear. Why are you talking about arrow carts and server populations? Is their connection mystical? Divine? Did a wizard tell you it was so? If I make arrow carts deal 20 less damage, will that ruin the space-time continuum by making whites more powerful than Legendaries?

I will ask you again to tell me how Ascended gear affects WvW negatively.

I will ask you to re-read the thread.

Can you please quote where I told you that small stats arent important in Dota cause pretty sure I said the exact opposite. All I said was DOTA has nothing in common with WvW, they are two different games with two different rule sets. Whats true for Dota isnt true for WvW.

Sure.

Galen Grey.4709:

Do you think that iron branch would make any difference if you get faced with a 2vs1 fight, never mind things like x vs y where x and y can be anywhere between 1 – 1000 ?

Here you are doubting me and Purge when we say that small stats make a difference. The implication being that, somehow, an unbalanced fight removes numerical values from the game and they become irrelevant. Stop moving the goalpost. You are wrong.

Really ? in any fighting game you say? so you’re saying that in EvE online A frigate has the same firepower as a Titan?

In Planet side 2 a gause rifle does the same damage as Titan-150 High explose round?

In litterally every MMO out there PvP is balanced the same way as sPvP in Gw2 or PvP in Gw1?

Are you… trying to make my point for me? I’m telling you that small stat differences matter – and you cite games with different factions/classes that clearly have different capabilities? I mean, I even remember when New Conglomerate weapons were considered garbage against all the other faction weapons. I also didn’t know EvE was a fighter.

So, at the end of these irrelevant questions you’ve posed me, I’m still right on how small stats save you in DOTA. Thanks for trying to distract me with all those crazy questions, though.

Right because if we remove Ascended gear that someone with food buffs is not going to be more powerful over someone without food buffs.
Without ascended gear coming face to face with an arrow cart will not be a problem.
Without ascended gear I dont have to worry if I am roaming alone and I come face to face with a 100 player strong zerg because now that the game is more balanced I can kill them all.

you hate the idea of ascended gear, I get it, believe it or not so do I. But if what you’re trying is like you’re stating fixing balance issues removing ascended gear is not going to change one thing. Fights of any size will still be unbalanced. And before stating that ohh but at least it will be better… you’d be wrong because some of the unbalance cancels or reduces other unbalance.

So you’re saying that removing ascended gear will bring more balance to the game. Wrong because there is no such thing as more balance there is only balance and no balance. There is no quantifiable more balance.

You continue to respond with red herrings and irrelevant dribble on how you can bring balance to the Force. We are talking about gear, and what it implies, and what the OP thinks can help correct it.

This is not denying the existence of the multitude of factors that unbalance WvW. The existence of these phenomena does not diminish the existence of the potential gear disparity, which is what the thread is concerned about.

If you wish to prattle on about how food buffs and zergs are imba, that’s ok, but it has nothing to do with gear. It does not remove the existence of gear and is not a reason against minimizing the gear gap. That’s all cool and all, and is stuff people could talk about to make WvW a better place, but it has no bearing on the thread.

And if it doesn’t make a difference, then you have no argument against it, right, homes? It makes no difference, so removing that stat disparity has no negative.

So, whazup, guy who doesn’t care about removing Ascended gear from WvW and is in fact against As gear.

Galen Grey.4709:

The title is asking for the removal of ascended gear, that has to be justified, the justification being given is its creates imbalance. Is that justification valid? you can only know by looking at the whole picture. Example. I want a raise, whats my justification? I am not paid enough. I cannot prove that I am not being paid enough simply on the bases that I feel I am not being paid enough if that were the case everyone would get raises all the time cause I never really met anyone who felt they’re paid enough. What generally happens instead in that case is your wage is compared to the rest of the industry for that of people in the same position. If its true then you’ll get your raise if you’re infact paid more then the average then you dont really have a bases for your I am not paid enough argument. Same here if imbalance is your concern if you want action about it you have to prove two things. 1. That imbalance is actually damaging to the game 2. a good reason why that imbalance should be addressed through ascended gear. Its already hard to prove 1 but even if you did why should they address one of the smallest causes of imbalance rather then the other large ones?

Because it’s relatively easy to correct?

Nothing that you’ve stated changes the fact that you love to distract from the topic at hand – which is what a red herring is. We’re talking about one element about WvW, and you try and deflect the arguments by going “GUYS LOOK HERE THIS OTHER STUFF IS IMBA AND IMPORTANT AND STUFF” and that doesn’t change any of our arguments. It is dishonest and little more than a diversion.

WELL THE UNIVERSE IS CONNECTED EVERYTHING CHANGES EVERYTHING AND GEAR IS LIKE A DROP IN THE OCEAN

Ok.

I am not moving anything you are Dota isnt anything close like WvW the same rules dont apply to both games. Also like I already explained +1 to any stat in dota is not going to put you at par with 2 enemies ergo if you manage to kill 1 of them or you manage to escape the encounter, stats was not what got the job done it was just a minor help. Not only that but that in itself is not an imbalance because 2 ganging up on you means two of you team are ganging up on 1 of theirs. Balance. Just to avoid going back or forth if you plan to rebut that by pointing out it could be that their team killed one of ours before and thus there is no balance being achieved by 2 of them ganging up on one of you then keep in mind that such unbalance is the designed death penality. You’re being punished for failure essentially.

You. Are. Wrong. 100% wrong. You could not be more wrong than you are right now.

You are moving the goalpost because first you try and tell me that small stats don’t matter in DOTA, which is wrong, regardless of opponents and, in fact, it’s wrong in SC2, in any fighting game ever, and I have good and well known players saying you are wrong in my favor, and then you try and tell me that DOTA isn’t WvW so this example that you tried to redirect by telling me that it was wrong isn’t valid for no reason.

More balance means nothing until you achieve balance.

Well, I guess if you say it, it’s true.

Oh, wait, no it isn’t.

You guys read it right here, making things more balanced does not mean they are more balanced because I guess there are other unbalanced stuffs in still?

Doesn’t even know what apologism is or understand math and somehow I’m supposed to believe these balance philosophies.

Scrambles.2604:

but gear stats is probably the least significant factor you can account for in WvW.

But even in that case it doesn’t change or refute the position at all. They’d rather it be a non-factor. That would also raise the query as to why keep those extra stats in play at all, since it’s such a small factor. Removing them would have, after all, very little factor of significance.

I also find such a general assertion disingenuous, unless you expect me to believe a man in whites is just as powerful as a man in As gear.

But why pick out ascended gear only? Exotic has more increase over Rare then ascended has over Exotic. A level 80 exotic players has more of an increase then a level 35 in fine gear. So why pick out ascended only? Shouldn’t you be actually asking for another whole mode where you can go play a sPvP version of WvWvW, where PvE has zero affect on it?

That depends on your personal position. To some it might be a matter of gradation. Ie. grinding for exotics to be BiS is annoying, but tolerable. The increase in time and effort to be BiS for the new tier is incrementally larger than before and is not in line with what was assumed before launch thanks to pre-release marketing.

To others it might be something else. Others might say screw all of this unbalanced stuff and really do make it like sPvP. Including everyone at level 80, free exotics, etc.

eisberg.2379:

Talking about the impact of gear in relation to all the other factors that play out is far from being irrelevant. Not taking into consideration all the other elements is intellectually dishonest.

Yes, it is. The existence of other factors in addition to gear that determine the outcome of battles in WvW does not refute any of the positions about Ascended gear, which is what the thread is about. It is a red herring.

Mackdose.6504:

A stun lock makes your damage output 0.

Those higher numerical values are potentially going to make a difference, and the impact of that potential is low compared to the other mechanics at play.

Are there any stats that determine how much damage you will take while stunlocked? Of course not.

I’m interested in your case study. No doubt, since the myriad of other mechanics at play trump higher numerical values, you’d be kind enough to present your objective evidence for this claim, right? What calculation did you use to measure the variable “impact of potential”? What was the standard deviation? It was low in comparison to what? What would you have expected it to be otherwise?

So we go back to “the stats don’t make a big enough difference”. Ring around the rosy.

Apologism. Apologism never changes.

I mean, it’s cool that there are other factors at play than stats, which I don’t think I’m trying to refute, but that doesn’t change the fact that there are stats and stuffs with higher stats than them and that, at the end of the day, this means an advantage for the guy that has them.

Etc. etc. I swear I’ve read all this before. OH WAIT

eisberg.2379:

Of course it is, because he is right, but you have no good counter argument for it. Talking about everything that is possible in WvWvW proves that gear is not a deciding factor that can be proven, and since you have nothing to refute that you would rather just ignore it all together.

Err… No. That there are other unbalancing factors at play in WvW that may or may not have a bigger impact is irrelevant because we are just talking about gear and what the gear itself does.

“Evidence”

“From my experience”

“I don’t feel at a disadvantage”

vs

Objectively higher numerical values on the stats of items and weapon damage values

“Numbers on paper isn’t evidence”

¯\(°_o)/¯

Apologism. Apologism never changes.

DocHolliday.5921:

And again, the point remains: if gear makes so little difference, why not just put everyone’s stats at the same level, making it more fun for everyone?

Because you don’t get paid unless you back Anet’s decisions.

Galen Grey.4709:

I could say the same exact thing to you. Ascended gear causes an imbalance. You don’t say? removing it is not going to fix the imbalance so that has nothing to do with anything.

Does that help you out in any way cause it sure doesnt me.

No, you couldn’t. You must not have read the thread’s title. Here it is: Remove Ascended from WvWvW

I’m talking about the imbalance of As gear. You talking about all the other imbalances is what has nothing to do with anything.

You seem confused, have you slept poorly recently?

Thats because you’re not listening to what I am saying. I keep telling you that DOTA is a different beast to WvW. Dota is something thats all about balance hence why the smallest change makes a big difference. WvW isnt like that at all. You’re compare Apples to Oranges.

Erm. No. It’s nice of you to try and move the goal post, but that argument is already sunk. DOTA has plenty of situations where you are not in an even position with your opponent or opponents, and guess what? Stats matter in those situations too.

Why ? we’ll still not have balance so what would we have achieved if we “fixed” gear?

More balance? Sup, man that doesn’t care about removing As gear.

Galen Grey.4709:

I dont doubt it. I am sure ascended gear won some people some engagements. So did a well time dodge, using food buffs, having your team do good support and crowd control and many others. All I am saying is this isnt any more crucial then anything else. Also one other thing… I am sure your guildy was very happy for his ascended trinket when he survived the fight with 1 health but how much weight did that victory have in terms of WvW? Cause like others pointed out WvW is not a deathmatch arena. Win and Loss is not about kill to death ratio its about controlling points. Success or failture is not about winning any 1 single engagement that too is just one variable against many. There are many layers to this.

You really like to make red herrings, don’t you? None of that refutes any of the arguments made and are little more than evasion attempts. There are lots of factors that impact WvW? You don’t say? That has nothing to do with anything.

If you’re able to kill 1 out of the 2 in a dota match then the small statistical difference isnt the only factor that got you the kill not only that but 2 of their team ganging 1 of you also opened a slot for your team to advance.

Think of it this way, if you put 1000 players in a dota match I guarantee you the match would be over in 5 minutes max. Thats because for Dota to work balance is critical.

I don’t even know if I should say anything. I have heard it come from Purge’s own mouth how Tread switching into strength for 10 hp at levels where heroes hit for 70+ and have nukes of 200+ damage is the only reason he was saved from ganks and even got some kills. It’s like you don’t know anything about DOTA, which is probably the case.

A lot of the unbalanced factors are easy to fix.

You are absolutely right. Gear being one of them. So somebody should fix it.

And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.

So I don’t see your point.

You should try reading the conversation again. My point was that I have personal anecdotes too, ones where I’ve seen the impact of those small differences.

What I fail to see is your point, actually. Nothing of what you’ve said has anything to do with anything – the exact point is that fighting at your best can make the difference between victory and loss – and none of your statements refute that.

Try again.

Galen Grey.4709:

You know when ascended gear was announced I tried an experiment, I woke up one early morning and decided to see what happens if I try WvW without any armor or trinkets on, just a weapon and nothing else. I did it early more just so I can remove the zerg element I wanted as close to 1 on 1 fights as I could get. Before people started showing up and I thought it would be pointless to continue I had 7 kills and 2 deaths We’re not talking 1 tier difference here but a whole 5 of them and this was early morning I am talking 5:30am here when things are kinda more balanced. Thing is balanced fights in WvW are the exception not the rule, Its rare that you get in 1v1 fights. When I was wearing no armor at all I had 2 people in 2 separate occasions run away from me even though they had a statistical advantage on me even if they were actually upscaled level 2 characters. What I am trying to say is some people avoid 1v1s prefaring to have the support of a team with them which makes sense because this isnt a duel like gameplay this is a war and in a war you dont go looking for personal fights to prove how more powerful you are then any of your opponent soldiers, you do what you can to reach your objective while staying alive and that means having backup.

What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.

Also that dota is balanced isnt irrelevant its the whole reason why something as small as an Iron Branch can mean the difference between life or death. Do you think that iron branch would make any difference if you get faced with a 2vs1 fight, never mind things like x vs y where x and y can be anywhere between 1 – 1000 ?

Yes? In DOTA you get gank attempts by multiple heroes all the time. In those situations where you are outnumbered the small differences are why you might be able to kill one before you die or escape just barely holding on to your life.

Do you think the iron branch would make a difference if the enemy group could use siege weapons that do 3x the damage you do to 5x the amount of players you ever could in one shot? Do you think it would make a difference if there was a wall protecting them that takes quarters of hour to bring down? Do you think that would make a difference if some of your team or their team would be under-leveled with no way of catching up during this encounter?

Simply speaking the more balance you have the more chance the most minuscule advantage will tip the scale. The less balance you have the more minuscule changes will be negligible.

More red herrings. That there are other unbalanced factors at play does not refute the existence of another that could easily be remedied to not be there.

And, again, if it makes no difference, why have it there in the first place? Why would removing it have any negative impact at all since it’s in a sea of WvW stuff?

Galen Grey.4709:

no offence you keep bringing dota up but last i checked dota was not 500vs500vs500 with a random number of people joining either of the 3 teams where you could build siege engines that do many times the damage of a single player and effect 5x as many targets as any AOE attack any of those 1500 can do etc.. Iron branch makes a difference in dota cause in dota you’re faced with a balanced fight. no +1 to any attribute is going to make a difference when you are likely to find yourself in a fight where you’re outnumbered or out classed because they got more siege weapons etc…

Dota is closer to SPvP then WvW and their like you correctly state stats matter more so everyone is given the same stats. WvW isnt that not even close though

All you are doing is bringing up red herrings. “lol there are lots of factors at play in zerg wars” does not refute the fact that having better stuff means you are stronger. That DOTA is “balanced” is irrelevant – because a single Iron Branch or a Tread switch into strength is the difference between getting ganked and escaping with 5 HP.

Julie Yann.5379:

It makes no difference in large groups but in 1v1, 1v2, 2v2 it does.

I suppose to the typical unorganized zerg it might not matter. On the other hand, I fail to understand how the math breaks down at larger numbers. 50 dudes with gear that makes them 15% stronger means they are 15% stronger than the guys without it. You know, like a single guy with 15% stronger gear is 15% stronger than the guy without it. I dunno, maybe math breaks down. Maybe it’s like a portal to another dimension where different math applies.

LOL /15characterslol

Mackdose.6504:

But I’m not talking about server balance, and that’s not what the thread is about.

Right, but I am, because I’m using it as an example of how just because WvW is intended to be imbalanced doesn’t mean it’s a good thing that players have to like.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

See how dumb this sounds?

No?

Why shouldn’t you be able to acquire BiS by running dungeons/doing your preferred content?

Mackdose.6504:

WvW is meant to be the open world PvPvE game. It is statistically imbalanced on a player level because it uses the gear from PvE. Why change what wasn’t a problem before? Why blow dev time on something they designed to be that way?

It became a problem to the players like the OP when they added Ascended gear to an already unbalanced system that unbalances it further.

That the developers designed it intentionally does not automatically mean it is good. Otherwise, it would mean developers could design terrible content (poop) intentionally and we’d have to think it’s fine that they gave us some poop. A poop by design is still a poop. Players will still expect, and rightfully so, that Anet try and encourage balanced server matchups even though WvW wasn’t intended to be balanced and can never be perfectly balanced. Improvements.

Mackdose.6504:

Law of averages. If you think I’m going to go commission a study to compile a kitten load of real-world data just to have your confirmation bias say it was flawed, you’ve got another think coming.

So, what you mean to say is that you’ve got nothing. Ok.

The numbers aren’t important with the gap is small, it’s the execution by the players that will determine the outcome.

Right, that’s why nobody bothers getting Ascended gear in the first place, and why nobody bothers getting Iron Branches in DOTA because they give you a single sad, lonely point in damage. Small differences don’t matter in PvP. Tell me more.

What everyone is arguing here is that since the numbers are higher, you are already favored in the fight by default.

My argument is that the advantage given by higher stats is easily overcome by a multitude of factors that make the advantage null and void.

Your argument does not invalidate the first. “Well, stats aren’t everything.” Ok? That doesn’t make them go away.