“lol the stat difference is minimal” argument hasn’t been believed by anyone that PvPs in any game for a long time now.
It is the difference between winning a battle with 100 or less HP or dying horribly. Perhaps these people should take this argument to DOTA forums, and explain why it’s a waste to time to buy Iron Branches and Tread switch for minimal stat gains.
I agree with the OP’s post wholeheartedly. I hated Ascended trinkets, and I hate the very idea of having to go out of my way again for another stat stick, and then another stat stick if I want to try something new, and then another stat stick for my alt, and then another for my other alt.
I’m done with grinding. For some inexplicable reason I decided to stick with the game after Ascended trinkets made me angry. Now I’m beginning to regret that decision. If Ascended stats only functioned in PvE I’d stop caring, but they unfortunately impact my performance in WvW solo roaming.
I’m doing lots of solo roaming in WvW so I definitely want to have ascended items.
I’m in a similar situation ankitten ot looking forward to having to get these stupid weapons just to stay competitive. This whole thing is the direct reason I don’t bother with other MMOs. I made the conscious decision to overlook the Ascended trinket debacle because I thought Anet would not continue down that trend for WvW, though it is becoming clear that I was incorrect.
I frankly can’t be bothered to grind for several more of these stupid things for all my characters that I want to take into WvW. Even right now I only really try solo play on my Thief since he’s got the best gear, but sometimes I do want to try other things without having to grind a whole new set of stats.
It really is disappointing that if I want to have some PvP without having to worry about gear I have to force myself into the torture that is SPvP. What’s worse, all of my friends and guildies hate SPvP so I’d have nobody to play it with. WvW roaming is what we like. A pity that no MMO seems to cater to these desires, even when they promise to do so in their manifesto.
How do you guys value the “balance” in this game? Are 1v1s important, or do you guys think they are meaningless due to the nature of conquest?
Is it intentional that classes automatically have a single “role” they can fulfill, like how Guardian is almost always bunker, or Necro is always conditions?
Are the classes supposed to be able to fight each other evenly with multiple builds, or is it supposed to be like rock, paper, scissors, with some classes countering each other, or some builds countering other builds?
Anet should listen to this man.
The PvP is in the state it’s in now because Anet simply has no capacity for foresight. They simply don’t know what they are doing, nor the effects of the things they change.
The easiest way to verify this is to simply open the Trait line page and gloss over all the completely useless crap there is in it, and compare that crap with the grossly overpowered Traits that you’d have to be stupid not to take.
How many Mesmers do you see without Deceptive Evasion? Really good trait right? Crazy good, huh? How many Elementalists would have forgone Evasive Arcana for something really special, like Lava Tomb? Boy, how about them Conjures? A great set of skills that see a lot of competitive usage? You guys remember when Persisting Flames, the freaking grandmaster trait of Fire Magic just made your fire thing last like 1 second longer?
No foresight at all. Someone, an actual, thinking human being, actually thought that people would use traits that make your Ranger pee himself when he goes into downed state and that it was competitive with all the other traits in the same tier.
These are the same people that said “cast bars are lame, animations are cool” and then implemented a midget race with stubby arms and legs that hold child sized versions of the weapons that determine your skills. Thanks, bros.
The same men, that when they were determined to make Necromancer more competitive, managed to blow up the meta and now everyone and their mom is a condi guy.
These are the men, that were like “man traditional rogues are lame, invisibility sucks, our thief will be different, short duration and infrequent stealth” and then give them stealth stacking combo fields and spammable combo finishers. For real.
There are reasons as to why even crap like Injustice or MK9 rake in considerably more viewers than GW2 despite the fact that GW2 has a significantly higher player base.
Like is said in the video, this game is more of Build Wars 2 or Class Wars 2 than anything else. Your build and class are far more important to your performance than any genuine skill. Why would anybody watch something like that? Why would we care?
I like the game and hoped for the best, but Anet has to get their act together.
(edited by TainoFuerte.8136)
They’ll say that and much more. The TDF would have you believe the same people who are apparently too stupid to learn how to fight Thieves in 10 months were somehow capable of dealing with 7 other classes well enough to not whine in the WvW forum. They’ll have you think that by sheer happenstance people running the same class with a similar build are just so much better than everyone that it kinda looks OP for everyone else, who are all just bad. They’ll say that beating people up out in the field is useless in a game mode where all there is to do is beat people up and knock on doors.
They’ll say it with a straight face and expect you to swallow it.
In case casual readers of the thread are wondering, none of the counters listed in this thread actually do anything. For example: standing in the BP circle does nothing but make me type /laugh as I HS slightly more to the left or to the right. In cases where I’m not confident, I just walk into the powder and HS towards the outside, not hitting the person.
The people that actually claim there are counters to this nonsense are either liars or bad theorycrafters. Not a single time that I’ve ever died with a permastealth build has been due to something my opponent did to counter, its always been as a result of an input error on my part or a bad judgement call – typically to overextending since it’s very easy to fight multiple people with this build and you slowly start to feel like Superman and sometimes you just can’t help it.
There are multiple skills that act as “counter counters” when doing these shenanigans, ergo, you have to actually counter the BP HS crap multiple times – often using abilities with long cooldowns which are then laughed off with Shadowstep or Blinding Powder – and if he feels like it he can stall eternally until all his cooldowns are back up, which other, slower classes with inferior potential for disengage find much harder to do.
I suppose to theory crafters it doesn’t sound so bad for one invisible dude with 6K + backstabs to follow you forever if he can’t actually beat you until you realize that in order for you to actually accomplish anything worthwhile you’ll have to fight other players or NPCs, whereupon you will receive several swift stabs in the butt and there’s not much you or your friends can say about it.
But whatever man, I’m loving having the entirety of a WvW map as my “do whatever I want” playground. I suppose I might be missing out on the satisfaction of hitting doors with a zerg, but it’s a sacrifice I’m happy to make, personally.
I won’t paint with that broad a brush and say that 99% of players are complaining because they’re stupid.
Ah, but that’s the crux of it. No doubt, people are expected to believe that everyone is crazy. Everyone just singles out Thieves because only Thieves are privy to the vast knowledge necessary to play the game. See, when everyone creates an account for Guild Wars 2, they are given a manual detailing all the intricacies of every other class – except for Thief. That’s why this “99%” of players and Thief whiners can’t understand how to fight Thieves – they just don’t get it!
They don’t complain about anything else that might be OP! It’s just Thieves being (wrongly) accused because people can’t L2P! It is mere coincidence that these same, poor players, that don’t know how to play and can’t adapt, just happen to know how to fight the other classes.
That’s why there’s never been threads on other classes – that’s why nobody has ever whined about, say, D/D Eles being ridiculous, or whined about Mesmers, or whined that Necromancers are blowing everyone up after their buffs. People are clearly misinformed, and are all mistaken when they argue about Thieves. It is inconceivable that people would point out OP things in a game and be right about it, very much unlike what happened with D/D Eles. Nobody singled that out, and, if they had, they would have been wrong, and just needed to L2P. No adjustments would have been needed.
No doubt the sane reader is aware that this is the real truth of the matter. I am grateful that I am one of the few with the true understanding.
Continued
Actions speak louder than words. So, show Anet lots of action. Lots of perma-stealth action. Ruin a dev’s game a few times, and you’ll see some changes. You’re telling them about it, right now, but you have to show them what you’re saying, too. And, really, what could be more satisfying than giving Thieves their own medicine? Heck, maybe you’ll change your opinion on Thieves. Maybe you’ll realize they ain’t so bad, that it was just coincidence that you payed for more repairs on your other class. That’s a good result too.
Roll a Thief and start stabbing some backs. You won’t regret it.
But, does any other profession have so many complaint threads? Combined they wouldn’t compare to those for Thieves. Obviously there’s nothing wrong with stealth and their escape mechanics with so many threads saying it’s broken, just a bunch of “L2P” players. /s
D/D bunker eles, before the last couple updates were just as broken and they got adjusted, but the complaint threads on Invinci-D/D eles was never anywhere near as many as for Thieves.
Ah, but that’s the beauty of it. Just like back then, the guys with the ridiculous class will always use the same arguments. “Just L2P”. “This isn’t a big deal, nobody cares about winning a 1v1 in the middle of nowhere”. “I beat D/D Eles all the time.” Etc. Always the same. I wonder if Thief defenders actually think anybody believes them.
As much as people like to think that making feedback threads work on Anet, I don’t think it’s enough. It has been my experience that game developers like numbers. Metrics. Tournament results. Things like that. Blizzard’s method for Starcraft 2 is very simple. 50% winrate for every race. That’s it. Occasionally they listen to things tournament players complain about and make small, minuscule changes. But mostly, they like to have hard evidence that things are awry. Evidence so real you can touch it.
How long have Warriors been in the state that they are in PvP despite multiple SotG where they were mentioned as lackluster? How long did Necromancers go without any adjustment? For how long have Mesmers had an irreplaceable spot on everything PvP related thanks in part to things like Portal? Have people not been whining enough?
I understand the sentiment that we feel that our beautiful game isn’t up to par just yet. We want it to become something better where everyone genuinely feels they aren’t limited in options just because of their class choice. It’s why many of us came here, over those other, more familiar, MMOs. I know I did. That’s why we are here, arguing about this very common topic. And I’m glad we are all doing it. These things need to be said and must continue to be argued. Every day, make a new thread on Thieves. Make the WvW forum a second Thief forum.
But it isn’t enough. Game devs need more than talking to see things straight. You guys need to act. I know some of you love your mains. That you are devoted to doing the best you can with what you chose. But sticking with your class is just a message that everything’s ok. “Hey…” Anet dev says; “things ain’t so bad”. “People are playing other classes in WvW and Thieves aren’t a problem in TPvP” (which we all know is so great and competitive an E-sport that it gets as many views as SC2, DOTA, and LoL).
If you think Thieves are OP, why do you think bending over and just whining on the forum is going to do anything about it? Prove to Anet what you’re saying. Give them all the data they’ll ever need. Show them a ruined WvW experience. Make it objective and tangible. Make Izzy regret taking anything but a third Thief or Mesmer in his havoc squad.
Abandon your class. Abandon it for the delicious fruits of an OP class. Show Anet what they are obviously missing. Gank noobs as a perma stealth Thief and use the /laugh emote. Troll groups by distracting them and wasting their time. Perma stealth near supply camps and flip them the moment it’s possible. Burn people’s opinion of the game into ashes. Make people hate WvW. Turn it into a joke. The more people do this, the more data Anet has. You guys have to make it so if someone steps outside their precious Zerg they get eaten alive by invisible monsters.
Can you imagine SC2, if one day Blizzard woke up, and found out that literally nobody played Zerg? Or if everyone just switched to one faction? What would happen? How valuable would their 50% winrates be then?
You gotta give these people more than QQ guys. Back when AvP2010 came out, it had some problems. Among the many problems it had, it had a huge balance problem. Predators destroyed everyone. You’d enter a match, and it’d be 10 Predators to 5 Aliens and 3 Marines. My favorite was Alien. I tried and tried, but it really wasn’t any fun.
The developers wouldn’t listen, either. The people who mained Predator, would stoutly defend the race. Me and my buddies just switched to Predator. We ruined endless matches. People would ragequit all the time, some of them going to community forums to whine. Eventually, the devs caved in. They didn’t have a choice, really, the game was ruined. People were leaving in droves. The devs made one last patch, but it didn’t do the things we suggested they did. It wasn’t enough. AvP2 came out in 2001 and lasted the community for almost 10 years. They had the tools to ban certain weapons from the server, to enforce race balance, mods, and things that kept the game alive. This game died in 2 months.
Thief, Thief, Thief, Thief, Thief, Thief, Thief, Thief, Thief, Thief…
Nothing but dozens of thieves, and in WvW nobody playing outside a zerg unless a thief themself. This is not a small problem, and more players are abusing this petty childish, no counter, no-consequence, no-skill playstyle every day.
Hmm… One of my guildies mentioned something similar happening to him! I don’t think it’s an everyday occurrence but he certainly was pretty mad that day. He couldn’t kill a single one but as soon as he started to “ignore” them they just chased after him relentlessly. He’s a kitten good duelist but all that skill is kinda pointless when your enemy can just run away. That’s why I rolled Thief. I could see this coming from miles away. Same story in every game.
This is actually a very good thing. I encourage everyone to roll Thief to roam WvW. The more Thieves there are, the more evidence Anet has that stealth abuse is ridiculous. Maybe when the developers all get tired of getting surprise buttsecks from Thieves in WvW they’ll be tempted to do something about it.
Much more rewarding to just level up your own Thief.
When I use D/P Infusion of Shadow is the trait most responsible for my permanent stealth. Get 2 ini each time you HS the powder, that + Blinding Powder, Hide in Shadows and Quick Recovery means you literally never run out of initiative to spam stealth with. You can be in stealth without ever leaving it thanks to Infusion.
D/P is incredibly broken – but Anet will not change anything because all these months the only real balance changes they’ve made have been in response to things top players whine about in TPvP. Even the nerfs to Retal and Confusion were based on changes made for TPvP ages before they were implemented in WvW.
IE. Reroll Thief is the only proper response anyone should be doing right now, to be honest. Once you realize you never have to pay repairs it’s hard to go back.
Give them rats visible cast bars or flashier animations and I won’t complain that I can’t see crap behind all the explosions and fires going on around Asuras.
If you want watching animations to be a pivotal part of whether you avoid damage or not you can’t pretend to then include a race whose average size is about half the size of other characters, but whatever, who cares about competitive play? If you ask me, it’s acceptable for one race to suffer for the sake of 4 others but I dunno.
I don’t see what the fuss is about. I’ve been playing it today and it seems just as broken as it’s always been. Just a few point changes here and there and I’m back to never losing small scale fights.
I am never switching my Mesmer from phantasms ever again. This is so trolly it’s making my Thief jealous. Tired of losing duels? Roll Mesmer and get this build because it’s too good to be true.
Is this trait even working? I haven’t noticed any difference before or after the patch. If with D/D I’m supposed to move 25% faster it should be as noticeable as when you place the signet, but I can’t see any difference.
Is it supposed to only work in combat or something?
(edited by TainoFuerte.8136)
Meh. I can only speak from what I and my friends have observed, but at this moment in time, I don’t think GW2 has “e-sports” quality PvP. The longer this game waits, the worse it will be – unless a gigantic PLEASE COME BACK patch is released.
I don’t like the RNG. Procs on crits, % procs on runes, % boons on some skills, when Swiftness is obviously very different from Protection but whatever, etc. What if this guy gets 5 lightning strikes in a row? Hate it when my victory or my defeat will be down to the RNG gods. I’m going to go ahead and guess that pro players don’t like the idea of losing 1000+$ on a bad roll of the dice.
This game is really bad to watch, IMO, of course. The amount of explosions and stupid effects on screen is baffling, and I actually play the game. I can’t imagine people who have never really played the game being swayed by blurs of random colors on screen. The meta is also really, really stale. This is a symptom of bad balance. There’s just not many viable team compositions, builds and strategies available. It is really boring to watch a thousand Mesmers and Guardians with a little Thief and Ele action around, maybe, now and then. It’s kinda cute how some slots can swap between Engis and Rangers and stuff but it isn’t enough and they always run the same builds.
It’s just not very exciting. The maps themselves are all variations on king of the hill and the secondary mechanics aren’t very good or exciting to watch, IMO. They usually all take second seat to what’s happening on the nodes, which grows stale after a long time. This also applies to the combat itself. I’ve watched countless matches where there’s a defender on point, a player arrives and runs right back away because the class he’s using can’t beat the class on point. This is another symptom of really bad balance. What’s more exciting, watching a Thief just run from the Guardian on point to see if he can help elsewhere, or having them both engage in a fair duel that could determine the match?
The creation of the downed state mechanic is also kinda annoying and it’s impact is dependent on which class you downed, because not all downed states are created equal (which is bad).
The addition of spectator was nice, even though it arrived too many months too late. Replays should be there. The Play Now feature is terribad – it usually places you into empty rooms and the server browser seems kinda useless. Finding games should be as easy and painless as possible. Is there even a way to filter out games with full teams even if the server itself isn’t full?
I can’t speak for others but I’ve just really stopped caring about the PvP in this game, and these are some of the reasons why.
(edited by TainoFuerte.8136)
It would actually make me have to think using my brain when playing my D/P Thief. 3 seconds might be too much, however.
As it is now, Infusion of Shadow seems pretty broken, considering Anet presented the Thief as a class without the permastealth of other MMOs initially. It makes playing the class EZ mode now as it is.
Thief is alright in PvE if you know the encounter and can avoid the damage. They hit very hard but aren’t Warriors, and in PvE, anything that isn’t a Warrior/Mes/Guard is considered to be at a disadvantage.
SPvP has rulesets that limit the potential of the class, but at running around unmolested and setting up lethal group ganks with Shadow Refuge the Thief is useful and thus valuable. Anybody that says that Thieves aren’t good in SPvP is ignorant. They are also the best at Hotjoin glory farming, if you want that.
In WvW, stealth abuse allows you the choice to do as you will – that combined with their speed makes them the absolute best at roaming with no risk involved in any activity. They aren’t exceptional when it comes to zerg fighting – and it depends on the type of zerg fight. A zerg cutting pain train demands a shortbow with endless autoattacks and cluster spam – which deals good damage and gets you lots of bags. In those everlasting zerg standoffs the Thief is way worse – you have to actually know what your doing and pick your target intelligently.
Small scale WvW is where the Thief excels – they can hit where and when you are weak as desired with little risk in the action and everything to gain, which is why people hate them. When Elementalists had an even easier time doing this, they were hated too. It’s the way of it. The only defense people have been able to come up with for their performance in WvW is trying desperately to downplay the importance of free camps, free scouting, free cows and free harassment – which D/D Eles used too and only the dense and gullible actually believed.
Jumping into the smoke field doesn’t work. I just leap to whatever region the person isn’t in in the field, or leap from within the field itself.
I can’t help but wonder where all the threads that try and detail all the reasons Engi/Warr/Necro/Ele aren’t OP are. It’s such a shame that Thief players are all miraculously created with the intimate knowledge needed to counter all the other classes, while other players, of an inferior breed no doubt, need detailed guides to counter the intense skill of the Thief.
Underwater combat in general is really, really bad. Half your utility skills don’t even work underwater, making some builds worthless by virtue of going in. Like, it’s fun how Thieves don’t have even one deception skill that works underwater.
That some skills are flat out broken in water is no surprise.
TainoFuerte.8136 do you see anyone here complaining about zerging thieves …i didnt think so.
I never said people were complaining about zerging Thieves. What does that have to do with anything?
I guess your point is they have 1 skill that can be used to tag thanks for pointing out that 1 skill.
No problem. Autoattack and 2 away for your bags.
@TainoFuerte.8136
lol you wouldn’t be here complaining about thieves if they were able to tag well they would just jump into the zerg along with everyone else and you wouldn’t even notice them.
I see Thieves in zergs. I play Thief, and I go into zergs. When I do, I have no problems with tagging. Autoattack and Cluster Bomb are both mobile, cast quickly, and are reusable quickly, this makes them exceptional at tagging multiple targets when following a quick moving train. Based on my experience, you are incorrect, and seem to be intentionally downplaying the strength of the class, both when it comes to tagging and and when it comes to the benefits of low risk, high reward play.
I don’t know what to say. The mental gymnastics necessary to reconstruct denying your opponents a reward when you reap them all as something of low value are so vast and alien that I shudder at the mere thought of attempting to understand them. I find the shortbow appropriate for mass tagging, to be quite frank, so I don’t really believe Thieves can be described as lacking when it comes to tagging.
That is why they said they are going to be buffing how to manage staying in the fight. We aren’t going to get more escapes, it isn’t what they want for us.
This severely limits the class, it’s potential builds, potential roles, and, as a consequence, makes the class a shallow one to play.
You couldn’t pay me enough gold to roam as a Necro instead of my Thief.
Creating more viable choices creates depth in a competitive game – something I am beginning to suspect Anet are not moving towards.
I believe the simplest way to express why people hate Thieves is “Low risk; High reward”. When D/D Eles had an easier time of doing this as well as being good in general they were hated as well. If Warriors were a stronger PvP class they would probably be intensely hated when running good disengage tools too.
Ultimately, when I try and play on my Necro, I will lose at times. The penalty for my loss is a repair cost and a loot bag for my opponent. When I play on my Thief, the penalty for losing is reappearing 2000 units away and using the /laugh emote. This raises an eyebrow.
That article just seems to talk about PVE… and it doesn’t have much depth. PVE stealth isn’t so good because it gives less rewards than straight up killing? I guess.
“Stealth” isn’t just a problem in MMO’s. Predator simulator classes/powerups/perks usually end up becoming a balancing nightmare and are hated by many. In games where open field, direct combat is 90% of the content, you can imagine that a single class or ability designed explicitly for the avoidance of direct, open engagement can cause a stir.
TPvP’s rulesets are designed in such a way as to limit the usefulness of stealth as much as possible – this courtesy does not apply to other PvP environments like WvW. The efficiency of stealth in SPvP is severely limited unless used for the purpose of killing or unexpected strategic movements. I can imagine how much more useful going invisible would be if you could contest points while doing so. This limits the class’ potential significantly for SPvP, considering how many useful things can be traited to happen in stealth. A necessary evil for stealth in its current state, however, since I would wager letting invisible players prevent points from being captured would be uncounterable and would reveal invisibility for the broken mechanic it really is. That said, stealth stomping, ressing from stealth, and of course the delicious Guardian group snipe from stealth all have their appeal.
The only things that can reliably hit stealthed targets in this game over other games are melee weapon autoattacks and some channeled abilities will continue to follow the lost enemy. Simply being able to activate an ability does not mean you can hit the target. Ranged weapons will often miss targeted enemies – let alone invisible ones. Otherwise it’s par for the course. AoEs and DoTs that haven’t been cleansed. Of course, in those other games merely taking damage in stealth breaks it.
D/P might as well just have a “toggle stealth” button. D/D requires your opponent getting hit, though in certain areas of the game, your enemies aren’t smart enough to move, like PvE content or mobs in WvW. Most other common forms of stealth are initiated by the stealthing player alone through combo fields or utility skills, so the stuff is of easy access and to many players can be overwhelming. This can be remedied with practice, against and as the class in question, but I can’t help but wonder why coincidentally there aren’t 20 threads all asking about how to counter Warriors and Necros which seem so impossible to manage…
Based on your description you could potentially stick with your Warrior. They have many leaps and can have perma swiftness, coupled with Dogged March and some food/Runes you need never fear slows – very vital to proper roaming. I don’t know too well how’d they’d fare in WvW duels, but playing fair is a sucker’s game.
If you just hate your Warrior you can roll Thief. You don’t even have to spec for burst.
=> a “troll” build can indeed perma-stealth and be a PITA to kill but will have very little killing power
This is completely untrue. I’m running a permastealth build right now and against non tanky targets kills are a simple matter, and when I happen to get outplayed I simply escape. No risk, potential high reward.
In fact, when I run with my guild I’m the one routinely downing players and stomping safely.
Your title contains the answer, OP. Reroll is the correct action to take in these circumstances. This state of affairs have happened in many games before and the answer is always the same – reroll. If you hate Thief? Roll one. Think it’s unfair that they can pick and choose their engagements at will? Roll one.
Once everyone that isn’t in a zerg is a Thief; maybe, just maybe, Anet might decide something is amiss with the ratio of risk and reward in the class. Until then, happy stealthing.
I genuinely like the Thief class, so them being amazingly easy to use and abuse doesn’t bother me, but I can sympathize with players that have to watch as their loot bags run away while they get run over by zergs. I’ve been in those shoes in other games. I rerolled to the FOTM class in those cases and found that it preserved my sanity and enjoyment of the game. It really is a completely different game – I love being able to do whatever I want knowing that unless I consciously overextend I can’t be caught.
Keep up? Kept up. Have ascended now. Never was a issue. The 5% to 7% increase in overall damage (ideal) tends to be negated with a single well timed dodge or interruption during a single fight. Hell, any damage spent hitting clones and phantasms instead of me is added bonus.
The difference between whites and exotics is far more notable than the minor increase from exotics to ascended.
The difference between white and exotic is nowhere near exotic and ascended. You farmed for the ascended, good for you, so did I. But I wasn’t mad that I had to suffer through a dungeon. Why? because so did the other guys who had ascended. It was fair.
Ok? I also kept up. I’m glad you did. You’ll notice people still consume food and take the time to get 25 stacks of whatever in order to have the best opportunity to win. 5% or 7% is the difference between getting downed or winning a fight with 100 or less HP left.
The mere recognition that the difference between whites and exotics is too great is recognition of the importance of stats in a game where one of the primary interactions between the participants is determined by numerical exchanges which determine how much damage is dealt and taken.
The question for me is not that it’s “unfair”, as all players must suffer to acquire them. It is that consistently grinding for BiS gear for a PvP environment is annoying, one of the primary reasons I stopped participating in PvP in other games, and Anet had created prerelease hype based on the idea that players that despised this system could come over here for comparatively easy to acquire BiS gear. A feeling which I am presenting by posting on the thread.
It doesn’t even have to do with the contested viewpoint that Anet made the WvW acquired ascended gear with improper currency – which the two of you are contesting. This leads me to be suspicious of these arguments of rebuttal, as they are more descriptive of plants than people trying to sustain consistent and focused arguments for one issue. ie. I just got trolled.
I got ascended gear as it became available to me. I kept up by being good at my mesmer.
Ok?
Are you agreeing or trying to refute my statement by insinuating that you can “keep up” simply by being good without BiS gear? I imagine then, that you often run around in WvW in whites, since to keep up one need only skill?
No they didn’t, because the difference was very little, or trust me the hardcore PvPers would have farmed that fractals till they got the BiS
Uh, yes they did. I got my ascended gear so I could keep up. In an even battle, even the smallest stat differences can have an impact. That’s why people buy food and run with 25 stacks of bloodlust/whatever.
But then again, I suppose it doesn’t matter for WvW if you are killing guards and gathering mithril for Dailies/Siege as part of “PvP”.
If people were this worried about not having BiS gear, and being rolled by someone who does, then they would have invested time to get to an even footing.
They probably did.
That they actually had to is the very problem.
Meh.
My problem is that these higher stats were allowed into WvW in the first place, when part of the reason I gravitated towards this game was the promise I wouldn’t have to spend 3 forevers grinding to acquire BiS gear for my characters, especially for a PvP environment, where I’d like to think I’m killing because I’m good at the game, not because I have some stupid trinkets.
But that ship has sailed.
Don’t know if I can take any “Thief is bad at this PvP related thing” seriously.
Personally, I like my 3k Cluster Bomb hits and 1k auto-attacks. I’ve found that using Shadow Refuge with a coordinated group pretty useful for going on the offensive or defensive as a team, as well as using Blinding Powder and even the less popular Smoke Screen to help my bros.
Thanks to my perma-stealth I’ve been able to put pressure on ranged DPS guys that aren’t expecting to deal with any nasty melees, thinking they are safe behind their wall of friendlies.
But I don’t know, YMMV.
Unless I aim for where the person isn’t standing when I do the second or third HS, which I what I do now when people try this on me.
You don’t “counter” stealth. You can attempt guesswork and defensive play to prevent the Thief from killing you – but you don’t know what he’s actually doing in stealth, which can be anything he wants. Preventing the Thief from killing you is about the best you can hope for against a half-decent Thief that doesn’t overextend.
Unless you are running in a zerg I guess you should also roll Thief. Fight fire with fire, if you want. People will catch on eventually.
Pick the fastest and most deceptive classes.
The primary point of roaming, to my understanding, is to get in, kill/flip and get out to the next objective fast. Have to be fast and evasive in case a zerg shows up to stop you.
In other words, Thief.
But he can do those things away from zergs or from prowling eyes, and keep up his stealth while he makes his way over there. Once in place, he can use Shadowstep to place the trap away from the group.
It depends on what you want to do. I personally prefer D/P and find it to be the most “idiot proof” and trolly WvW build I’ve played. The chase potential and infinite stealth are too good for me to ignore. But that’s just me. Try them both.
How is awareness going to stop this strategy? Genuine question. Terrahero’s and the OP’s points seem pretty very convincing to me.
You’re just being pedantic.
You were suggesting that other classes can’t 1vX, they can, despite there being more videos from thieves showing this.
Very much like Roguecraft – it is completely coincidental that Thieves have more videos about these circumstances, and that the other contender for troll WvW videos, D/D bunker Ele, happened to be considered OP by the community. I see now.
Why roll a thief to get around a map largely unnoticed?
Then why roll a class other than Mesmer if you like the idea of porting groups of people around the map?
You choose the best class for the job obviously!
No doubt that’s true. That’s exactly what we are discussing. If you feel that every class should have only a small niche of roles available to them and that that’s ok, good for you. Unfortunately, Anet has gone on record stating they want classes to have different roles, that our experience should depend on the player and not the choice of class. Currently, this is not the case, which some people dislike. That’s why this thread exists.
You didn’t mention GvG, so what?
You’re talking about Thieves regularly killing groups.
By GvG I wasn’t talking about organised events by the Windmill where this situation wouldn’t occur, but rather the guilds, small or large, roaming the maps for encounters with similar sized groups, who produce videos of their encounters and discuss them in the forums.Oddly I’ve never seen them whining that they got wiped by a thief before they got started, or a thief spoiled their night.
Because it’s nothing more than yet another red herring. Nothing you’ve stated refutes any of my points, and you even acknowledge the advantage held by one class over others. This leaves me confused as to why you stated I was “missing some points”, but ok.
Since we aren’t talking about “GvG” in the strictest term, I’m also somewhat confused by your statement. There are people whining about Thieves on this forum all the time – just in threads dedicated to them. I’ve even participated in these roaming events as a Thief with a few of my friends where we occasionally run into other small groups – when we win, we get some loot, when we lose, we just run away. I have everything to gain, and nothing to lose. Things might be different for me if I had chosen another class. That’s what we’re talking about.
Now go ahead and pick the bones out of that if you like. It seems you’re more of a troll than any thief I saw.
I guess that’s why I rolled Thief.
I “assume” lone players would choose Thief in WvW because it’s a class that allows you to avoid groups or zergs by the use of stealth. A fair assumption I would have thought.
That’s exactly what we are saying. They choose it due to the tools it provides. Did you have a point?
Of course they could choose any class, but to then complain that Thieves can avoid death in situations where others can’t seems silly, when thief is available to all.
Thief is available to all? So just roll Thief if you want to roam? We have a master of balance design here.
I “know” that many 1vX Thief videos are from a few individuals through simple observation. Unless you’re just trolling, what point are you trying to make here?
I’m not making a point. I was asking what was yours. What conclusion are we supposed to draw from the fact not everyone records and when they do record, it just happens to be as Thieves? None? So you had no point at all? You told me I was missing some points, so what are you trying to say?
As an aside, there are a huge number of videos showing GvG and smaller groups fighting it out in WvW. They are often posted in the relevant tier’s weekly threads in this very forum.
I have never seen one where a thief makes a mess of the situation, nor have I heard any mention of a thief causing problems in any of the threads.I dare say that if you suggested thief was such a problem to any of these guys, you would be laughed out of the forums.
I understand that reading english might be difficult, but what does GvG have to do with the discussion at hand? I don’t think I’ve mentioned GvG at all.
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With regards the ratio of 1vX videos around…
I have seen more 1vX Thief videos, true, but you’re missing some obvious points.Some people simply like to play alone, Thief is the natural first choice.
Why is that? Players who roll other classes all love to play with zergs? How do you know this?
Most of these videos are from only a few individuals.
These individuals are unlikely to post videos of the fights that they lost.
I’m not sure I understand these assumptions. Does this mean there are less individuals with Fraps playing other classes? How do you know this? Why are all the individuals who record WvW magically attracted to this one class?
It’s possible they may be unlikely to post videos of losses, but this same principle could apply to players who video record as any class.
It doesn’t have to be. Could be that every class is designed to have similar potential for disengagements so that everyone can roam effectively. The chasers don’t have to win, but right now they’ll always win against some classes and never win against others. That’s pretty much what imbalanced means.
The thing is, roaming as a thief is not low risk – high reward. It is low risk – low reward. Zerging and blobbing however is truly low risk – high reward.
You are using zerging as a red herring here. The issue at hand is that when it comes to roaming one class can reap the same potential rewards for the activity without any of the risks several of the other classes have to take. That’s the very essence of low risk – high reward.
(edited by TainoFuerte.8136)
I haven’t had my roaming affected by any of these traps yet. If I ever see someone put one down in a small scale battle, I’ll trigger it intentionally to see if I really can’t just Shadowstep and IA away for 30s. I’m going to go ahead and guess that using this against a roamer is a waste of badges and supply, but I’ll see if they can catch me.
Thanks for the video again, so lame the old thread was deleted.
As I said then, you demonstrate what it means to use all your tools to the best of their abilities. This is obviously intended behavior by Anet – why would you have a class that can be invisible forever if not to do things like these?
I hope other people learn from this video and put these new traps to good use. Very smart and well played by those guys.