Guild Wars 2

20v30 the 20 players well win if they have some organization, but that doesnt mean its not zerg v zerg.

Look at RG’s numbers. Do they look like a zerg guild to you?

Also it’s not just “some organization”. Look at all the boons stacked on each person, look at how the blast finishers set off water fields and heal everyone, look at how everyone’s health is almost always full. Look at how QUICKLY RG wipes those larger guilds.

Id like to see this video of 5v30. When you find it post it otherwise your full of kitten.

It’s a bit humiliating to post because it was my old server up against those 4 guys, but whatever. Here ya go:

Mike.7320:

Teamkiller, it sounds to me that you yourself have no skill, therefore you must run with everyone else who has no skill, 30v5, dont matter how good the 5 people are, the 30 horrible players will win due to sheer damage and not skill.

Get some son.

I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not. Also did you maybe fail to read and miss the part where I said I roam as well as zerg? Oh and if you’ve never held off 30 with 5 people you shouldn’t be telling me I have no skill, nor should you be bragging that OG is the best, because there are people who have won 5v30’s, and were on the 5 side. (granted, against horrible players, but you did say “doesn’t matter how good the 5 are”)

I also think your exaggerating. Im not t1 or anything so slap me if im wrong but a 100+ zerg? sounds crazy to me seems like that force would dominate said map.

hyperbole.

If you want some fun fights, come roam with the most skilled players this game has to offer- OG

It’s nice of you to offer but I’m going to decline after the insult you tossed at me in the last post.

Jerks.3172:

Teamkiller.4315:

Acelerion.6820:

The problem is that skill does not play enough of a role. Of course skill could matter to much and make the game inaccessible to new players but as it stands numbers > all

I have lost 2v1’s (where i was on the team of two) and consequentially i have also won 1v2’s (where i faced two opponents alone). I can’t speak for gear but everyone was lv 80. Yes, skill matters, and numbers do NOT trump all. I’m sure many others have had similar experiences of winning and losing outnumbered open field fights. Also, have you not seen the 4v30 videos? or the 7v50?

Numbers is the greatest advantage you can have, I’ll admit that, but that’s the way it SHOULD be.

The 4v30 and 7v50 video is not even worth watching. The zerg is scared of attacking them thus getting free hits off. Only when last couple minute of the 7v50 the zerg realized what are we doing? Lets push them and came there down fall.When they can easily push through and crush them. If that was in a higher tier server they would of just get wrecked no problem.

That’s something called superior (or in the 30/50’s case inferior) skill.

Someone said numbers trump all, so I showed him an example where it doesn’t. it’s really really simple.

If you’re not convinced, just watch any number of Red Guard’s videos. They wipe hundreds with a group of like 20 all the time.

DOWN TO OUR LAST KEEP IN EB! KEEP UP THE GOOD FIGHT DB!!!!!!!

I speak for many of us when I say we here at FA don’t want a blowout

Also score update

Boxing is a martial art.

Also i dunno where I claimed that you claimed something (other than that hyperbole, which you admitted to, which you denied figuratively “making” and tried to hilariously make it seem like it was different from “using”)

enji

We were discussing YOUR claim that even a martial arts master couldn’t handle 3 dudes.

more often yes than no.

enji

This means, in statistical terms that you believe the chance of one “normal non-martial art master” dude beating up more than 1 person is pretty much non-existent which is also lol.

yes

enji.7459:

I didn’t make a hyperbole, I used hyperbole to make fun of your position.

…uh…you realize…that…what you just…wrote…

are you like, just acting or are you being serious? I can’t tell.

enji

Like, if I have to come up with peer reviewed studies to prove to you that 1 person can in fact beat up multiple people pretty easily then lol.

No, what you’d have to do is come up with a peer reviewed study that shows to me that out of many thousands of trials of 3 people fighting 1 dude that the one dude beats the living daylights out of the other three fairly often. We’re discussing probability, not possibility. You know the difference between the two? Just cause they both start with the letter “p” doesn’t make them the same

OK, so you admit you made a hyperbole. In that case, I call logical fallacy on your argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

Lol, Viper, FA had to fight Blackgate and TC. Granted, TC isn’t as bad as Kaineng but Blackgate is scarier than Kaineng for sure. Especially those shudder HB Hammerzergs (war/guard hammer zerg)

And DB was fighting Kaineng right alongside you guys.

Kakeru.2873:

tagnut.8621:

Anyone complaining about zergs is an idiot.

You want small scale – go play s(illy)pvp. I bought this game for one reason and one reason only – large scale battles. And since the culling change (which incidentally is much much much better for me) we’ve had them non stop – massive 3 way fights lasting 5, 10, 15 minutes.

If you’re whining about zergs you’re in the wrong game.

Wow! hahahah this is the post of someone who clearly has no experience of how WvW (RvR) is gone right. Oh god i feel sorry for the person at the end of this post.

You know how patronizing this post makes you sound? Sorry to bust your fairy tales but this is Gw2 world vs world, not Dark Age of Camelot 2.

@Samhayn:

Small groups do contribute to field battles (i can’t tell you how many times I’ve flanked with only 5-10 people). However, a small flank typically won’t work unless the group already engaged also pushes (otherwise the people you are flanking can just try to break through one of your smaller armies). So when you have your group flank, you need to immediately inform the rest of combatants that you are indeed flanking, and that they need to push to rout the verminous _________ invaders from the field.

enji

I don’t know but you left us with this gem:

Yes I did…now tell me where I said one dude has NEVER beaten up multiple people like you claim I said.

enji:

no one has ever beaten up more than 1 person!

Where did I say that? Did I say it’s NEVER happened? No, in fact I just told you ive both won and lost 2v1s and 1v2s. Didn’t I? Do you read sir?

mmmkay What happens if 3 dudes try and grab a guys arms and he breaks their kittenn noses? I’ve seen a guy beat up 4 people like it was nothing. I’ve seen 5 trained officers try and detain a dude who beat up a few and ran away. He wasn’t a martial artist, he was a drunk. Cmon dude.

anecdotes, you’re telling me stories. I’m saying that it’s not probable for 1 guy to beat up 3-4. The advantage is usually in favor of those with more numbers.

You realize that the reason zergs attack supply camps is so they can drain supply for things yeah? For those who pay attention to /m and /t people are constantly asking you to not take supply from stonemist, not take supply from keeps, not take supply from towers (when upgrades are running). There’s really only one option left: supply camps. If you have a zerg of 30 ready to hit SMC (for example) then just going to your own supply camps isn’t going to suffice, you’re going to have to flip a third one to get everyone 10 supply. If a small man group hasn’t done that already, then hey, why not use the zerg? It’ll only take 10 seconds anyways.

Also zergs are the only realistic way of dealing with righteous indignation in a reasonable amount of time.

muylaetrix.2096:

in DAoC and Warhammer (not to the same extend as DAoC, but still majorly) Skill (and rank) > numbers and winning vs FAR superior numbers was common for the best guild groups. those were the only 2 games with a decent ‘w3’-esque model imho. every other game that has had a similar system (at least of the games i played) only used the ‘we have great ’realm vs realm’ as a salespoint with no content or flawed content to back it up and sell some extra copies.

A) Top guilds in Gw2 wipe superior numbers all the time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuglHYntFD0

The question is whether or not it is PROBABLE, and no, it is not. And zergs usually have a massive strategic advantage that comes with larger numbers; like i said not only more firepower and more effective/overall health but also the ability to surround you in open field combat, larger flanking groups to work with, more support, etc. etc. etc.

muylaetrix.2096:

well you obsiously think in terms of ‘sumo’ where size mathers and not in terms of ‘aikido’ which is all about technique and not about size/ and doing bench presses. and you don’t mention the person with the revolver taking out 10 enemies equally armed at 100 range because he is a good shooter and the 10 couldn’t hit a barn door at the same range. and in real life, a hand grenade is not ‘capped’ at wounding only 5 people.

Sorry, those are both terrible analogies, and no I don’t mean Sumo as in size. I mean if three people were to grab the limbs of one guy and hold him down he’d be helpless. Of course they’d have to get over their initial fear of the “mystical martial artist” but that’s a psychological disadvantage, not a physical one. Anyways, you notice how in movies the 1vX fights always have the one guy fighting one person at a time while the rest circle around menacingly? Yeah, there’s a reason for that; one big reason is cause the one dude isn’t usually capable of realistically keeping up a sustained defense against multiple persistent attackers.

Revolvers kill/incapacitate in one hit (usually). Hey, I didn’t know Gw2 was like that.

muylaetrix.2096:

all depends upon play style and game mechanics if it is possible.

gasp so you’re admitting skill matters?!? Doesn’t this kinda sorta contradict your first point? I dunno why you’d argue against yourself.

muylaetrix.2096:

everyone his opinion, fair enough

You don’t understand. You asserted it, you gotta prove it. I just said I disagree, I’m waiting for proof that there is no other game in existence that rewards numbers over skill as much as gw2 does. So…where’s the proof?

Acelerion.6820:

The problem is that skill does not play enough of a role. Of course skill could matter to much and make the game inaccessible to new players but as it stands numbers > all

I have lost 2v1’s (where i was on the team of two) and consequentially i have also won 1v2’s (where i faced two opponents alone). I can’t speak for gear but everyone was lv 80. Yes, skill matters, and numbers do NOT trump all. I’m sure many others have had similar experiences of winning and losing outnumbered open field fights. Also, have you not seen the 4v30 videos? or the 7v50?

Numbers is the greatest advantage you can have, I’ll admit that, but that’s the way it SHOULD be.

Actually it’s very easy to hold a choke with ballistas against a zerg that’s too afraid to push.

This occurred in t7. The siege isn’t really even cleverly placed. Alternatively, if the zerg does want to push, throw down stun fields, warding, crippling traps, condition wells, null fields, etc etc. It’s pretty easy at a choke for fewer players to hold off many, if the ten have superior skill (also defending is easier than attacking)

muylaetrix.2096:

50 players can kill 50 enemy players in …just for the sake of the argument… roughly the same amount of time it takes 1 player to kill 1 other player and earn 50 times as much badges the same amount of time.

Not necessarily. 50 players will stack boons and aoe is much more effected (offset by of course revives and defensive boons, but not enough; offensive boons tend to overpower the defensive ones, and some defensive boons actually are offensive, like for example retaliation). Also once a good portion of one zerg is killed the rest will start to rout, making most of them free and easy kills.

I agree with whoever suggested the lower score cap for t8.

muylaetrix.2096:

in other games, superior skill and game play can beat superior numbers to various degree. in this game it’s vitually impossible to beat 3 times your own number in open field.

In very very VERY few games is it probable to beat 3 times your own number in OPEN FIELD, even with superior skill. Most cases where this happen is where players die very quickly (in gw2 this is not the case) and even then it’s not that often. Actually, this applies to real life too. If 3 people jumped one martial arts master, unless this martial arts master can easily lift 400-500 lbs (roughly three peoples’ weight) they’re going to crush him (literally, they could just sit on him and he wouldn’t be able to do much), even if they have no fighting skill at all, just the most basic form of coordination.

And it’s not as hard in Gw2 as you think. If by open field you mean truly open, then no, 3 times your number should absolutely crush you (short of you being a military genius, those of which are in short supply) by simple virtue of being able to very very easily surround you.

Also i disagree that no other game rewards numbers over skill like gw2.

Seriously, why? Does it not make SENSE that more numbers = overwhelming advantage? There are things that a zerg can accomplish that a five or otherwise small man group cannot dream of accomplishing. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy running both in a small group and a zerg, and yes, I’ve taken keeps and fortified towers with small amounts of people, but the advantages of a zerg are just innumerable. Let’s start with the basics:

-More firepower
-More effective health. (I dislike the 5-man AOE cap, but it’s offset with the 5-man Boon cap as well. Even without the cap however they still have higher effective health)
-Insanely fast revives and ressurects (I dislike the revival system, I do, but it’s there.)

Really simple right? Now factor in a couple other things into the mix

-Stacking boons (yes, i understand the five man cap on most boons, but the problem is a small man group usually has to be more spread out whereas a zerg can afford to stick more tightly together due to 5-man aoe cap)
-Stacking healing
-Stacking condition removal
-Stacking combo finishers

-Along with the psychological benefits, which is higher morale.

-And of course, it’s obvious to anyone who’s wuvwuv’d that higher numbers of people also equals…higher supply (siege built faster. Really!)

I can’t think of many advantages of a small man group to be completely honest. The first thing that comes to mind is that they are much easier to coordinate (but this can be offset with zerg coordination. Think how devastating a 10 man flank on a 4 man group is). The second is that they are harder to detect. The only other reason I could think of is that they can accomplish things that a zerg also could (like holding an enemy at a choke), but with fewer numbers hence letting the rest of their allies accomplish other things.

Anyways, there are things that are integral to wvw that small numbers of people (<10) cannot accomplish. In general, this amounts to attacking fortified structures

-Attacking defended towers: This should be fairly obvious. One of the advantages of a small man group is their ability to avoid detection better than a zerg. However, if you’re attacking a tower, it’s really obvious to the defenders inside (if there are any), and there goes your advantage. With small numbers of people it’s also nearly impossible to get any respectable amount of siege up, and with less than 5 people impossible to get a catapult up without either the supply buff or running supply, leaving your only option to either PvDoor for 10 minutes or build a ram (which can be countered with just ONE defender). It’s downright near impossible to defend your siege because half your group will be manning it. The more heavily fortified the tower is, the worse it gets. And to top it off, one or two defenders can hold off four of you, so there goes the third advantage of the small man group.

If there’s 20 people inside the tower with ballistas pointed at the future breach, gg.

-Attacking defended keeps:

It’s likely that a small man group would have trouble maintaining siege against the constantly respawning NPCs, not to mention the players there (Keeps also tend to have much higher reserves of supply, allowing one person to easily construct an arrow cart or a ballista and ruin any small group’s plan of taking it)

-Attacking Stonemist castle.

Just no. Especially if it’s defended, even zergs get obliterated trying to get in AFTER they’ve breached both gates. SMC also usually has defenders 24/7, so there goes anyone’s hopes of trying to snipe it.

-Open field combat that is NOT at a choke point

Allows the zerg to easily surround and destroy this small man group. And realistically a smaller group can only hold back a zerg at a choke if the zerg was composed of players who are too afraid to push in with stunbreakers. Also, a coordinated zerg destroys a coordinated 5-man group, and yes there are coordinated zergs. (ever been on JQ’s teamspeak? it’s a beautiful thing to see)

Now, again, I’m not bashing small man groups. They are fantastic for flipping supply camps, flipping undefended towers and (sometimes even keeps), contesting locations to throw the enemies into havoc, and uniting with other small men to take down a zerg in open field combat (yes, 6 groups of 5 coordinated guys are FAR superior to a mindless 30 man zerg). They capitalize and optimize the resources their server has while their own zerg takes care of pressuring say, Stonemist Castle, Bay Keep, Hills Keep, etc. However, realistically there are things that they just can’t really do.

I disagree. You can have 30 people attacking one person and they would all get the kill. The text would be chaotic.

Also some people obviously do it better than others. For instance, a Meteor shower Ele would obviously rack up a ton more kills than say an ele with water attunement trying to support his team.

Against different guardians you’ll need to do different things. The thing about guardians is they often have a lot of retaliation uptime, so instead of multi hit low damage skills or whirling axe use high damage low-hit skills, like for example, eviscerate. Even autoattacking is better. However, it is generally a bad idea to try to outlast a bunker guardian. You need to burst with heavy damage low-number-of-hits-skills. (They have low HP).

Retaliation does fixed damage, so to give you an idea on why it’s terrible to attack him with high-hit-number skills; let’s say he has 1.7k-1.8k power. Each time you attack him, you take around 350 damage in return. If you use the attack whirling axe, you’ll take 15×350 damage (which is 5k+), not to mention the damage he is outputting himself.

Attacking him while he has protection AND retaliation up is just bad. You would be essentially taking more damage from your own whirling axe than you would be dishing out if he just stood there. Hundred blades is a far more powerful skill, granted, but if you’re attacking him while his protection’s up and retaliation’s up you’re still going to take about 3-4k in damage just hitting him (and against a bunker guard with protection you wouldn’t be doing that much to him anyways, even with HB), and it’s not going to be worth using over something like, eviscerate or say your adrenaline slash.

Your other problem was apparently with our blocks. Ill list out our sources of blocking:

-Virtue of Courage passive – Grants Aegis every 40 seconds (can be traited down to every 30).
-Retreat utility (60 second CD, can be traited down to 48 seconds)
-Virtue of Courage (90 second CD, can be traited down to 63 seconds)
-Trait in valor (our best trait line, most guardians will have at least 5 points in this, which gives us this trait) that grants aegis when he hits 50% health
-Focus skill 5 (45 second CD) that creates a ring of shields around him and blocks three attacks (you WANT to make him block, otherwise it explodes and does damage to you)
-Mace skill 3 (15 second CD). Mace is a very very defensive/close range weapon (and one of our slowest), so if he has this out you won’t be taking much damage at all, and it’s unlikely he’ll catch you. Just kite him around with a rifle or something.
-Shelter (blocks for 1 1/4 second, 30 second CD): this is our weakest 6 skill in terms of how much is healed.

If you’re fighting a guardian, it’s generally inadvisable to OPEN with an attack that you’re relying on to burst him down with later, since his passive virtue of courage will give him 19hour aegis. Just destroy it with a low damage skill. If he pops aegis again, it usually means he sacrificed either a 60 second utility or a 90 second virtue, it shouldn’t be back up again unless he sacrifices an elite to recharge it (that would be pretty silly early on in the fight)

Hmm, I run an offensive guardian in wvw; i use him for breaking the frontline of an enemy zerg mostly.

0/30/20/20/0 build.

I have a mixture of armor and weapon stats but my ending stats are as follows: 1800/1900/1800/1500; so around 16k-17k HP with 3k-3.14k armor. I run with a GS and sword/shield; both have superior sigil of fire on them for aoe damage.

Utilities are SY, SYG, WoR, and ToW.

The reason for the radiance trait line is because I am reliant on blinding large mobs close to me. I activate both SyG and SY for stability and general boons, jump in with the greatsword 3 skill with blinds, then throw up a wall of reflection usually. This lets me have a tiny sliver of breathing room to activate both binding blade then whirling wrath, which i can use to interrupt quite a few people. Whirling wrath should activate virtue of justice which will blind again, and then i activate the active effect to burn them. Switch to sword/shield, knockback, blinds, protection, ZD, and dodge roll back into my own lines, heal if needed, activate ToW, and start spamming conflagrate. It works pretty well as a zerg line breaker.

I am open to suggestions since this is the first build Ive done on my own.

A warm welcome for Maguuma to t3! This week’s match is likely to be the best of all the tiers IMO.

PS we didn’t team up on you in EBG, trust meh. We were actually just trying to defend SMC from dragonbrand for hours, so there wasn’t really much going on in the north end of the map cause well…they had all their guys up there trying to take the castle, we had all our guys up there trying to defend it.

Also, score update!