Since you dont have all that much healing power I would recommend going sword and shield instead of mace and focus. It’s higher dps definitely, a bit less healing but you have mediocre healing power anyways, you still get a blind and the higher attack rate of attack of the sword means higher chance to proc vigor meaning more dodge heals.
Shield 4 still gives your team protection. Sword 2 is still a blind on a pretty low cooldown. Sword 3 blocks projectiles, as does shield 5. And shield 5 is about a 2k heal.
Stack stealth with smoke field and cluster bomb spam. Add shadow refuge for 12s more stealth.
You can stack up to half a minute of stealth lol.
Do you even know what you’re talking about?
Doesn’t matter, it’s not relevant to the topic. Frequent short stealths != Infrequent long stealths.
The only other way is to chain C&D because otherwise thief stealths are utilities on quite long cooldowns.
If he’s going stealth really really often it could mean he’s using his combo fields.
Hardly irrelevant since one of the more popular thief builds that relies on a lot of stealth (D/P) has foundations in using combo fields. (Specifically pistol 5 dagger 2)
Stack stealth with smoke field and cluster bomb spam. Add shadow refuge for 12s more stealth.
You can stack up to half a minute of stealth lol.
Do you even know what you’re talking about?
I made my thief build especially for some average resistance to stay longer on battlefield. I have 1400 toughness (full exotic) which I think is quite high for this class and yet I have been destroyed by some some glass canon hitting me by Steal 8000, CnD 5500, BS 10200(1vs1 match). I never experienced this with my previous build with 900 t. If +500 t. makes no difference what is the point to have it? If I had my previous build i would be BS by 12000? steal 10000?
Other side is hitting someone in light armor (power 3000, critic. 90%) and doing him 3000 damage by BS. I found that I got Higher damage on warriors then on mesmers or necros. STRANGE INDEED!?Backstab damage is doubled if you are behind your target
Skill damage coeficient is 1.2 – facestab // 2.4 backstab
Considering an thief can get over 3200 power -120 critical damage (full glas cannon)
we add food buff / 25 bloodlust staks / 25 might stacks – thief can reach 4200-4500 power / 120 crit damage
add 5% (dagger training)+ 5%(flanking strikes) +10% (exposed weakness) +10%(first strikes) + 20%(executioner) from traits = 50% damage modifier , mathematicly is posible to hit with same skill for 5k damage or 20 k damage .
Direct damage formula is – Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
SITUATION 1
DAMAGE DONE = 952 (weapon dmaage) * 4300 (power ) * 2.4 (backstab skill coeficent) * 150% (traits ) * 2.7 (Critical ) / 2400 armor = result an 16579 backstab
SITUATION 2
DAMAGE DONE = 952 (weapon dmaage) 3200 ( no bloodlust/might stacks) 1.2 (facestab skill coeficient)* 115% (traits- no flanking strikes / target got no condition/ you don’t have over 6 initiative /target got over 50% hp) * 2.7 (critical ) =5517 face backstab (Critical ) -2000 non critical
ofc you can get more power – i belive you can reach 4700 full ascended /ruby orbs
Also i did not took in consideration sigil of force 5% damage or any defensive buffs /protection -signet of judgement / -% damage under ….. etc .
And vulnerability /frenzy (take extra 50% damage)
Those could increase even more the damage diference from same player to same targetI’ve seen a warrior Kill Shot someone for 33,000 damage, the worst part is that he did it from a safe distance .
It takes a ton of special circumstances to KS someone for that much.
Although yes, killshot is a very powerful single target ability. My guardian has 3.2k armor and has eaten 9k killshots.
AFTER the rtl nerf.
Rtl nerf. Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool.
Cooldown was increased…?
Stack stealth with smoke field and cluster bomb spam. Add shadow refuge for 12s more stealth.
You can stack up to half a minute of stealth lol.
People still complain when I bull rush frenzy hundred blades them in spvp with my level two warrior.
Hasn’t that ship sailed a long time ago? Like, since beta, where people discovered there was something called a stun breaker? Yeah…people aren’t gonna stop complaining about thieves.
I’ve had a mesmer complain that traps were a cowardly way to fight with ranger
I’ve had multiple people complain my guardian was too survivable.
I’ve had people complain about my bunker thief being even more unkillable.
I’ve had people complain that my elementalist ran too much, this being AFTER the rtl nerf.
So…yeah, just ignore them. People will always find things to gripe about
Hello there Amin, I was wondering if you could share how you got your stats? Mine are nearly identical and I have the exact same 0/0/30/30/10 build as you but my healing power is 400 less than yours. Everything else is within like 2-3% of each other in terms of raw base stats. (I’m using all exotic accessories if that matters)
Not worried about boon hate either tbh. I don’t stack a lot of boons, and when I do I am usually ikittenerg. Warriors need some love in WvW to be honest so I don’t mind taking a bit more damage from them. Thieves raw burst damage is being toned down and their stealth is being nerfed, only fair they get a little more damage to compensate.
I draw the line, however, if “boon hate” neutralizes the protection boon. If it becomes worse to have protection up than not…uh…that’s just bad design.
Hopefully it won’t come to that.
P.S. highest backstab thief has ever hit me for was 5k, I returned 5 autoattacks to him and he went down (yes he was extremely bad, but I’m just illustrating that this isn’t going to break our class)
Put a flame ram blueprint on their body
You’re being massively obtuse or disingenuous. You’re comparing the Ele’s single greatest AoE weapon to the warrior’s single greatest single target DPS weapon. You’re intentionally omitting, for the sake of your pathetic argument, that warriors do not have a LongBow weapon, which is their AoE option. EVERY class has an AoE Option, even if that option isn’t as effective as staff ele.
Do you want to know the problem with this argument? The longbow’s aoe is hardly anything worth talking about…unless you take into account their arcing shot, which is usable only once every time their adrenaline refills, and is far more easily avoided than a meteor shower. Even then it is not as effective nor as much aoe.
Again, I’ll point out that you NEED melee warriors and guardians in your ranks to help your freaking zerg, and they will miss out on a ton of kills because you know aoe cap removed. Furthermore, this doesn’t solve the balance at all of classes that are purely support that keep your backline and frontline alive and well. They get precisely zero kills.
I’m hardly exaggerating. I started a guild of 60 players to play WvW when this game started. Now, only about 4 ever play. I started in an alliance of about 14 different guilds when this game started, all focused on WvW. Of those 14 guilds, I can name only ONE that still plays this game with any regularity – and they are going to drop it once TESO releases.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
There’s this. And then there’s also…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation
The important one is number TWO. You assume the reason they stop playing is because wvw sucks. Have you ever considered that the reason they stopped playing is because like the rest of gw2, initial interest faded? Have you ever noticed that zergs of 200 in PvE at launch are now more at the size of maybe 20? Uh, right, yeah.
Conversely, I could tell you my own stories and say that I am a part of five guilds, and the PvE guild is 4 times less active than the WvW guild, considering the typical number of people online at any given time.
You are being so intentionally obtuse just to prove your internet point that it’s sad. Yes WARS have been fought by armies, but inside those wars, do you think every battle was fought by the WHOLE army? Do you think they zerged every objective with as many people as they possibly could because it was the best way? Or do you think, that throughout the course of human history, small groups have won as many if not more engagements than massive armies have? I am not arguing for the extinction of the zerg. They have their place, same as any other tool. But it shouldn’t be the ONLY tool.
Now tell me where I made this argument that “zerg should be the only tool” And I’ll concede.
Oh, nowhere?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman
I said they are the best and most prevalent tool. Anything else is support. Your special operations squads aren’t going to fight on the frontline and win the war without the army, while the army can win the war without the special operations squads. It will be substantially more difficult but it is possible.
Likewise, we ALWAYS have havoc squads on the map taking camps and other small objectives while our main army hits the heavy targets. I don’t see ANYONE stating or claiming that zerging should be the only tool.
I only see people claiming zerging is the only viable tool, which is sad and wrong. You are the pathetic one making your pathetic point to change the game into something you want to see, ruining it for a lot others.
You’re being massively obtuse or disingenuous. You’re comparing the Ele’s single greatest AoE weapon to the warrior’s single greatest single target DPS weapon. You’re intentionally omitting, for the sake of your pathetic argument, that warriors do not have a LongBow weapon, which is their AoE option. EVERY class has an AoE Option, even if that option isn’t as effective as staff ele.
Do you want to know the problem with this argument? The longbow’s aoe is hardly anything worth talking about…unless you take into account their arcing shot, which is usable only once every time their adrenaline refills, and is far more easily avoided than a meteor shower. Even then it is not as effective nor as much aoe.
Again, I’ll point out that you NEED melee warriors and guardians in your ranks to help your freaking zerg, and they will miss out on a ton of kills because you know aoe cap removed. Furthermore, this doesn’t solve the balance at all of classes that are purely support that keep your backline and frontline alive and well. They get precisely zero kills.
If only you had any idea of just how many people have stopped playing WvW or GW2 altogether because of the way WvW has been implemented.
You are massively exaggerating how many people have stopped playing WvW or GW2 altogether JUST because of WvW.
I also think that this game type’s prevalence for zerging is absurd, almost as absurd as the people who want to defend it by constantly reverberating the tired argument of “It’s called WORLD vs WORLD nubs, hence ZERGS.”
I don’t understand, what exactly is invalid about this argument? There are large scale battles, there are small scale battles. I participate in both. Everyone I know has at some point participated in both. I don’t understand why you complain about zergs, apart from the fact that maybe you’re tired of losing a 30v1. But that’s ok, because you’re supposed to lose against those kind of odds. It’s like going into a boxing match and expecting to beat 30 bodybuilders at once. Not gonna happen.
I’m hardly exaggerating. I started a guild of 60 players to play WvW when this game started. Now, only about 4 ever play. I started in an alliance of about 14 different guilds when this game started, all focused on WvW. Of those 14 guilds, I can name only ONE that still plays this game with any regularity – and they are going to drop it once TESO releases.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
There’s this. And then there’s also…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation
The important one is number TWO. You assume the reason they stop playing is because wvw sucks. Have you ever considered that the reason they stopped playing is because like the rest of gw2, initial interest faded? Have you ever noticed that zergs of 200 in PvE at launch are now more at the size of maybe 20? Uh, right, yeah.
Conversely, I could tell you my own stories and say that I am a part of five guilds, and the PvE guild is 4 times less active than the WvW guild, considering the typical number of people online at any given time.
You are being so intentionally obtuse just to prove your internet point that it’s sad. Yes WARS have been fought by armies, but inside those wars, do you think every battle was fought by the WHOLE army? Do you think they zerged every objective with as many people as they possibly could because it was the best way? Or do you think, that throughout the course of human history, small groups have won as many if not more engagements than massive armies have? I am not arguing for the extinction of the zerg. They have their place, same as any other tool. But it shouldn’t be the ONLY tool.
Now tell me where I made this argument that “zerg should be the only tool” And I’ll concede.
Oh, nowhere?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman
I said they are the best and most prevalent tool. Anything else is support. Your special operations squads aren’t going to fight on the frontline and win the war without the army, while the army can win the war without the special operations squads. It will be substantially more difficult but it is possible.
Likewise, we ALWAYS have havoc squads on the map taking camps and other small objectives while our main army hits the heavy targets. I don’t see ANYONE stating or claiming that zerging should be the only tool.
I only see people claiming zerging is the only viable tool, which is sad and wrong. You are the pathetic one making your pathetic point to change the game into something you want to see, ruining it for a lot others.
At their peak, I have enjoyed Shadowbane, DaoC, and Warhammer more than GW2 but given the curent populations, those aren’t really options.
I’d like to point out that because of WuvWuv’s substantially higher population, they are most likely satisfying the majority of those who want open world pvp and those who hate zerging are an outspoken minority.
I want tweaks to wvw too, but don’t make it so that elite 5 mans can just farm zergs.
Removing AOE caps would further unbalance classes. That ele spamming meteor shower? Yeah way more effective than that poor shortbow ranger.
First off, you can’t spam meteor shower, secondly the shortbow ranger isn’t meant to be an aoe weapon, and third you can dodge out of damage which balances out a lot of issues with damage. Un-capping the AOE would do a lot to balance the game. Look at it like this. 5 players flank 20 players attacking a tower. The five players hit them hard and knock a few down. The twenty players turn and hit them and the 5 players drop quickly.
Why would something like this happen? This is the reason. A 20 player team can put their damage into 100% of the 5 player team. However the 5 player team can put their damage into 25% of the 20 man team. Not only does this not make sense at all, its a drastic imbalance and punishes the players using good tactics while rewarding those making mistakes.
no, no it wouldn’t. Stop arguing semantics. What I meant by “spamming” meteor shower is using it every time it’s off cooldown.
The ele’s going to get substantially higher kills. Why? Cause vastly more powerful AOE that’s why. What about say, a rifle warrior? Or actually, any warrior that is not using hammer?
You don’t see how this would imbalance the classes? Without a massive massive nerf to AOE there’s no way all classes would have their own niche in WvW. Some people are going to rack in 30 kills per fight while others rack in…like 2.
I’ll also mention that plenty of people on youtube have won 5v20’s…yes against bad players but do you really expect to wikittenv20 vs good players? Anyhow, Flanking 20 with 5 guys isn’t exactly “Fantastic tactics” that let’s you deserve to kill all of them. It’s one of the most basic military maneuvers there is.
Only if you think coming to conclusions without any actual evidence is useful.
You mean apart from the fact that gw2 is far far more active than those other games mentioned?
If only you had any idea of just how many people have stopped playing WvW or GW2 altogether because of the way WvW has been implemented.
You are massively exaggerating how many people have stopped playing WvW or GW2 altogether JUST because of WvW.
I also think that this game type’s prevalence for zerging is absurd, almost as absurd as the people who want to defend it by constantly reverberating the tired argument of “It’s called WORLD vs WORLD nubs, hence ZERGS.”
I don’t understand, what exactly is invalid about this argument? There are large scale battles, there are small scale battles. I participate in both. Everyone I know has at some point participated in both. I don’t understand why you complain about zergs, apart from the fact that maybe you’re tired of losing a 30v1. But that’s ok, because you’re supposed to lose against those kind of odds. It’s like going into a boxing match and expecting to beat 30 bodybuilders at once. Not gonna happen.
Think about REAL LIFE World vs World. Zergs (armies) are a tool that can be used, but they aren’t the ONLY tool. More conflicts have been fought and resolved with much, much smaller tactical teams and they should have play here too.
They are the best and most prevalent tool. Historically, things have been acquired and won by massive armies, not by small 5 man teams that killed 300 guys. Such things are extremely rare and hence why the subject or stories and legends.
Tell me, do you think the United States Special Forces should be able to take the United States marines corps in a fight? It’s about 5000 vs 200,000. Sure, there’s no question as to which soldier is better in combat, but seriously, 5000 vs 200,000, they’re a reason they are SPEC OPS and not front line troops, it’s because with their pitiful numbers they would be destroyed in open field combat, hence their forte is special operations.
Which is what I think small scale should be relegated to. Typically small scale involves sniping supply lines and supply camps, as well as ninja’ing certain structures while YOUR army has the ENEMY army occupied elsewhere.
(edited by Teamkiller.4315)
I would like to issue a formal challenge to any willing participants—to host a zerg vs. zerg Naval Battle on Thursday (if possible, let’s make it a 3-way battle). Bring Lots Of Friends.
PM me here or message me in game to organize a time (Presuming scores get locked in).
Don’t forget to bring a towel.
Kain should be kind enough to host it in their BL since they are winning currently.
LOL! I saw YOU in /t when you told us all you broke 6k kills.
Gratz man!
At their peak, I have enjoyed Shadowbane, DaoC, and Warhammer more than GW2 but given the curent populations, those aren’t really options.
I’d like to point out that because of WuvWuv’s substantially higher population, they are most likely satisfying the majority of those who want open world pvp and those who hate zerging are an outspoken minority.
I want tweaks to wvw too, but don’t make it so that elite 5 mans can just farm zergs.
Removing AOE caps would further unbalance classes. That ele spamming meteor shower? Yeah way more effective than that poor shortbow ranger.
My favorite part of that GvG tonight, was the guardian who thought he was tough and tried to fight the thf, then the thf dominated him so bad his whole guild had to come over and save him
uh…
Looking at your posts history I see a lot of bragging.
a LOT of bragging.
“OMG I’m so good. I dominate these 1v1’s and 1vX’s but it always takes a zerg to kill me”.
Holy crap, I mean…seriously, i’ve never seen someone dedicate their entire foruming career to boasting about how they beat up people in pretty situational matches. I understand you don’t exactly want to brag about how you get dominated from time to time (and I’m sure it happens, it happens to everyone; there’s always better players than you, unless you are the absolute best, but i doubt this) but most people tire of such prevalent chest thumping.
If you doubt what I say, well I’ll just point out that my third most highest rated post is calling you out on bragging about “winning” a 1v5 in the epic face palm moment thread.
yes, because the keep has 2 doors…
You get more rams for the same cost (4x rams per door), and with more overall damage potential (catas do 50% damage to gates). And with the remainder supply you could even make some of the rams superior… Unless you’re using superior catas in which case you’ll get a full set of superior rams and take those doors down in half the time.
But maybe I’m missing something, because KN’s night crew does PvDoor as their end-game so this might just be a pro-tip moment.
the catas that hit the first door splash damage the 2nd door as well so by the time the first door was down the 2nd was down to 30%
you don’t get that with rams, which take significantly longer to bring down both doors
Ah, alright, I checked later and confirmed that there were indeed catas point blank at the door. My bad for the hasty accusation ._.
Good fights this week!
It would require a reworking of the entire class, although I like the idea. I would like to keep backstab damage high, making it unmitigatable but I’d like to ask for more penalties to missing a backstab and making it generally more difficult to pull off.
Is there going to be such a thing? I play like Yashis. I like to 1v5 or more. D/D + S/D atm.
You can check my post history and while i do agree some thief mechanics need tweaking I have never complained they were overpowered and I defended them against whiners who do complain.
However, any class that can regularly win or even pose a threat in 1v5’s is overpowered in my book. You opening with such a statement forces me to slap myself and tell myself “it’s just another guy trying to brag, thief class isn’t as OP as he makes it out to be”.
Please, STOP. You braggarts are the kind of people ruining the class. People come onto the thief forums and see all these stories of thieves winning 1vX. When they see that the first thing they think is “this class is overpowered” not “This guy has a lot of skill” or the more rational “This guy is just bragging”. Hence, it reinforces their pre conceived ideas of “thieves OP, nerf them” and they lobby harder for nerfs, and now A-Net is nerfing stealth.
I hope you are happy.
Exploit into FA’s EB keep just now was pretty lame of you, Kaineng. Until now, I haven’t actually seen cheating even though I’ve heard multiple reports of it. Now I have.
lol wtf are u talking about, we built 8 catas outside your front door and speed rushed through that
Hmm, everyone our /t said they only saw two (same here). I might be wrong though.
Oh well, what’s done is done.
Exploit into FA’s EB keep just now was pretty lame of you, Kaineng. Until now, I haven’t actually seen cheating even though I’ve heard multiple reports of it. Now I have.
Not involved in NSP but my old guild spent a week in that server. What I want to say for the most part is that a lot of people overestimate their skill.
If you see them run a five man, feel free to plow over them with autoattacks.
Yeah, I disagree. I like large fights, and judging by the number of people who run in zergs, most people do as well.
Jscull, go play Spvp please.
Zergs ONLY purpose to is to be fodder for prepared 5 mans. 40 guys were wiped by 8 everyday all day in Daoc. I get your point that drove those 40 out of the game. So it is a challenge for Anet to keep both the mindless and the skilled players in the same pvp system.
Good god you need to quit this game, please.
Every single post you’ve made can be boiled down to;
- Bigger numbers should always win just because they’re bigger.
- A video showing a small group killing quite a few players. Not a zerg, not a ball, a stream of players. That is not representative of the issues being discussed here.
- A link to a theory on self-perception of skill.
*Absolutely.
*Yep, that’s how to kill a zerg, by NOT engaging them all at once. You think you can take the firepower of 30 people and live? Much less kill them all before you are instagibbed? Keep dreaming
*Because some people overestimate their own skill, don’t realize that they’re not skilled enough to pull off 4 v 30s, and would like zergs nerfed so they can, even tho they don’t deserve to because they’re not skilled enough.
Those who are already skilled enough do win 4 v 30s, and you will find videos on youtube of such things.
(edited by Teamkiller.4315)
@Teamkiller guess you never played in higher tiers? Where one big blob (80+)takes everything.. Splitting up and attack multiple towers like you said : good luck with that zerg will be there before you can take it and even if you do, you will loose the T1 real fast because they can even without rams etc, pewpew the door down real fast.
Its a game with only 1 tactic that needs no skill.
I’ve played in SoR (currently T1), IoJ (currently T5), and FA (currently T2, and my current server).
So yes, I have played in higher tier servers, and no, two groups of 20 beats one group of 50 in ppt. While neither stands a chance in open field combat unless they unite they can keep avoiding or feinting the larger zerg, or even wiping to them (delaying them) while their friends cap something. You know what that does? Sure, it’s a field victory for the large zerg but int the end WvW is about points, and 2 groups of 20 will get more points than one group of 50.
You might not like the fact that you’re not winning any fights, but you’re winning in the score. But you seem to only care about wiping larger numbers with your subjectively self determined better amount of skill.
And i know about the nullfield and the necro skills , but again it are skills you use right at the start of the battle same as the Time warp and other skills. Its not wait till enemy does X..
Right, because people who play mesmers are kinda mentally challenged and obviously use null field on enemies that haven’t stacked any boons on. At all. Oh, and guardians lay down walls of reflection against melee trains, and elementalists churn bomb into ranger pets. Obviously.
Right.
You keep insulting everyone who actually does run organized groups.
And our guild fight RG many times even won some when they werent that big yet.. Think they have over 40 people now??
Stop bragging; you COMPLETELY missed the point. What YOU claimed was that it takes no skill, only numbers and spamming autoattack 1 to win. So I challenge you to face an organized guild (specifically, I invited you to challenge our guild to gvg; I cannot do so because I hold no position other than just member status) and do exactly that. Spam autoattack only and see if you don’t wipe within the first 30 seconds.
And a game like Counter strike that is skill based has active players for many many years without realy changing anything.. While none skill games get booring realy fast and need expensions.
AFAIK in counterstrike beating 8v1 odds is extremely rare, especially if it’s an engagement where it’s 8v1 all at once, like it should be. Similarly, it’s also extremely rare in Gw2. Like it should be.
A skill based game keeps fun because you(your group) wants to become better and better (not with getting better gear etc… but by practising).
Playing harder oponents until you finaly manage to beat them.
But thats the problem.. these days people give up to fast and dont want to get better(or loose ever).
They want to put one hand in their pants and play the game without getting the risk to ever loose. They want games where someone more stupid then a monkey and who can only bang his head on the keyboard still can win.
Right, I don’t want most of the people in Gw2 to start saying things like this, and I want the game to remain fun, not full of people who think like you and look down upon newer players thinking your 5 man will wipe their 40 man JUST because they’re new. Stop thinking like this.
The ‘casuals’ argument is weak though. Not all casuals stay casual, and not all casuals work in isolation. Map chat is full of ‘casuals’ reporting enemy guild movements, and guilds responding. Anet are smart enough to ease the impact on casual players.
And not all casuals like working in groups of <5. In fact, the fact that most choose to run with the zerg should show you how much they appreciate that there is a zerg there to pick them up when they make mistakes. You seem to be under the impression that the 40+ people a squad of elite is supposed to wipe isn’t actually made of people but rather dumb bots.
You couldn’t be more wrong.
Also, there are MANY suggestions on how to handle AoE damage without a cap. Damage that degrades from the epicentre to the edges of the area is highly effective in other, older, games. The point is GW2 went live. WubWub was played. AoE damage was strong. Solution? Cap it. The laziest, easiest of all solutions. AoE damage IS being nerfed. Your 40k won’t be 40k.
Yet the idea of removing boon cap is rejected altogether?
Why not throw some ideas for that around as well? Decreased duration of boons from the epicentre to the edges. But of course, removing aoe boon cap would obviously help zergs so no it can never happen. Never help groups > 5 even if indirectly
As the game stands there is no reliable counter to a group of >5, no matter how many players you have… so the lowest base gameplay becomes the standard for the majority, even for the elitists.
Again, I refer you to this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
I don’t know if you are joking or not, but you definitely need to play more guild wars two.
uh…yes. 8v1 odds the 8 should win by default. Again, i’ve seen situations where the outnumbered side wins those odds, but it should be very very rare.
And yes, it’s for the good of the game. You want to have a population that is happy. While the 5 that got wiped may begrudgingly complain about numbers, they are not likely to quit the game because the fact that they run in such disadvantageous numbers in a gamemode that encourages large grouping shows that they obviously still enjoy it. If you don’t, then quit and stop complaining, go to another game because Gw2 WvW is obviously not fun for you and games are played for enjoyment.
Exactly what I said: this game is pro-noob and pro-carebear because that way item mall sells better.
You want a practically dead game with only hardcore players and no one buying? Gw2 isn’t for you, please move on.
Why because no skill is needed for this game. As long you can follow the large group the only thing you need to do is to smash some buttons if the rest start doing stuff.
you’re insulting a lot of people here, but I do invite you to gvg if you think no skill is needed. We’ll see how long you’ll last.
Crikey, check out the balls on Timekiller. How many in your guild? Link to guild site? I guess you want to fix the numbers for this “GvG” with him, or should he just round up 60 people and steamroll you because, you know, numbers should always win?
He’s welcome to round up 60 players and try to steamroll us. If we only brought 20, I would expect to lose, even if all 60 enemies were previously PVE carebears. Like I said, there comes a certain point where skill shouldn’t trump numbers. And those odds are it.
I dont say all players dont have skills.. i just saying to win you dont have to have skill. You just need numbers. Even if that are players that dont know you should stop shooting at someone behind a reflection shield.
You were implying something awfully like “you don’t need skill to win ikittenerg”. So what I did, was I challenged you to zerg an organized group and see if you could win. Like you said, get a larger group and spam autoattack. I’m sure that will work out just fine for you when you face guilds like HB or RG. Want to test it out?
But even GvG is about running into another group with help of teleport or veil. Then cast everything you have. The only abilities that are a bit responsive to enemy actions are your heals(+waterfield) and stability… rest are all cast them when they are up..
Skill is about movement not realy how to use abilities.
uh…here…I’ll drop a link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
I asked everyone to read this in the OP. Please do. You don’t know enough to say that it takes no skill to win, only numbers.
I would like to see more reaction based abilities like cleaning ground targets you can place over enemy ground targets.. and stuff like buff(retaliation) removals and retaliation. So a counter ability for all abilities, so you need to react more on what happens around you.
There are…dude. Ground targets have red circles. Avoid them, it’s simple. If you can’t cross, get people to range them down. If guardians have reflect shields up, use your own ground targeting. Easy peasy.
Boon removal huh? Looks like you obviously don’t know what null field is, you’ve never used boon rip sigils, you’ve never explored thief trait trees, you’ve never played necromancer, etc. etc.
Like I said, you should probably learn a bit more about the game and its depth before you exclaim “no skill needed here!”
Exactly. Everyone cries “Nerf zergs!” when you can see that disorganized pugs still get owned by tactical and skilled groups. It’s possible to do it in the current state of the game, I’m not entirely sure why in the world you would want to nerf it further for elitists to farm newcomers to wvw making a more hostil…forget it.
Because those players have no incentive to improve? There are things Anet can do to improve the experience for new players. The breakout events were one. Point is, at some point those ‘new’ players won’t be new anymore. There’s a fine line between making something accessible and making something dumb.
If a smaller group cannot counter a bigger group, either by out-playing or CC’ing their way into an advantage then this game mode is of limited long term value. It’s a very shallow experience and it can’t possibly sustain itself; because at some point those new players will see the zerg for what it is.
The problem is it’s already possible to do such things, if you make it even easier for 5 guys to farm zergs, and it happens over and over, normal people are going to get demoralized. It already happens in the game. If one group keeps on getting wiped over and over, they just quit or move to a different BL.
At a certain point skill can’t overcome an advantage. Let me ask you, do you think it should be possible for one very skilled player to solo cap a keep against 40 defenders slaughtering them all in the process? Cause I think not. I think skill should play a role, but it should play a role secondary to obvious advantages like numbers.
The problem is this: 60+ man blob in invulnerable to almost all damage. You can’t damage it if you can’t kill it at once.
Then DON’T kill it. AVOID it. You avoid fighting an uphill battle against a stronger enemey, it’s common sense. If they insist on sticking as one group split up into multiple havoc squads that hit all towers on the map at once. They can’t respond to all of them in time and they have to split up as well.
It’s really simple, I don’t get why people don’t just learn some basic strategic thinking instead of whining “nerf zergs”
@Teamkiller.4315 That’s a lot of words to reiterate your point; yes, I get it, you think that 40 people should win be default because they’re 40 people. No tactics, no skill, no thought. Specs don’t matter, builds don’t matter, weapon choices don’t matter, the environment doesn’t matter. Ball up, spam that #1 and loot…
… for the good of the game?
Hah.
uh…yes. 8v1 odds the 8 should win by default. Again, i’ve seen situations where the outnumbered side wins those odds, but it should be very very rare.
And yes, it’s for the good of the game. You want to have a population that is happy. While the 5 that got wiped may begrudgingly complain about numbers, they are not likely to quit the game because the fact that they run in such disadvantageous numbers in a gamemode that encourages large grouping shows that they obviously still enjoy it. If you don’t, then quit and stop complaining, go to another game because Gw2 WvW is obviously not fun for you and games are played for enjoyment.
On the other hand, if those 5 were suddenly to start wiping 40 man zergs commonplace those FOURTY would stop playing because they feel as if it’s too hard to break the skill barrier needed to actually accomplish ANYTHING in WvW. Those 5 guys? Stopping the 40 from accomplishing anything. You don’t think people are going to start crying about how certain classes who can do that (guardian, ele, mesmer, in particular) are friggin OP in WvW? Actually, they’re more likely to NEVER touch WvW again. WvW would degenerate into what DAoC became, which was a snobby community of elitists who turned away newcomers interested in the game.
Like I said, it’s already possible to break zergs with comparatively tiny numbers. However, it should be extremely rare. Sieges are already hard enough as is against smaller numbers, you DON’T need to make them even more difficult.
I have seen puggers/zergers shoot themself to death on a reflection wall..
OK? So you’re saying one guardian with a wall of reflection can down multiple unskilled enemies? Then why would you be complaining about numbers owning everything? (like they should, anyways)
Why because no skill is needed for this game. As long you can follow the large group the only thing you need to do is to smash some buttons if the rest start doing stuff.
you’re insulting a lot of people here, but I do invite you to gvg if you think no skill is needed. We’ll see how long you’ll last.
Naturally 30 guys should have a massive advantage over 5 guys, even if the 5 guys are more skilled. advantage in firepower, effective health, area control, and boon sharing. Skill only overcomes so much. You’ve been watching too many hollywood movies if you believe that sort of thing happens regularly.
Yes, it is possible to wipe 30 guys with 4-5, but most of you aren’t good enough for that kind of thing. You overestimate your skill. Even for those good players, it’s very situational. Here, read up on the Dunning Kruger effect. It’s really interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
You can watch people who are good enough to do that kind of thing on youtube, however.
Maybe learn instead of complaining. And for the record, roaming small scale battles are possible in wvw. I’ve had plenty of good ones uninterrupted by zergs. But if we’re talking WORLD vs WORLD then the emphasis is on LARGE scale, as in two armies clashing with each other, not seven or eight 5v5’s going on at the same time.
Five organized ppl in FotM Setup facerolling scared pugs and never more than 10 at a time. I dont get how this is special.
I guess any rutinee fractal team could do the same.
Stopped countig the times the pugs ate a full 100b after min 1:05.
Some pugs even seem to die fully from retaliation.
Exactly. Everyone cries “Nerf zergs!” when you can see that disorganized pugs still get owned by tactical and skilled groups. It’s possible to do it in the current state of the game, I’m not entirely sure why in the world you would want to nerf it further for elitists to farm newcomers to wvw making a more hostil…forget it.
Once culling is fixed, things are going to be very,very different
Source: 10 years of DAoC experience
Also removing AoE target cap will help.
Only if you remove boon sharing cap as well.
No. It will help zergs.
Then don’t remove AOE target cap. Otherwise, you have silly things like 5 eles with rotating meteor showers holding off 50 people indefinitely from EVER taking a tower. No one would ever get anything done.
It would turn into thief/mesmer wars 2.
The 5 move sensibly, react quickly, counter in a way that makes sense but still get steamrolled.
If it’s against 40? I don’t care how tactically or sensibly they act, they deserve to lose by volume of sheer numbers. You’ve been watching too many hollywood movies.
And why exactly should the mechanics favour massive zergs over smaller groups again ? WvW is about map domination, point scoring, siege placement and tactical thinking.
Because common sense dictates 2/3/4/5/6 beats 1 in an ordinary situation. Extraordinary skill, tactics, and coordination can pull off a victory for the outnumbered group, but if it’s 40 vs 5, again, i don’t give two kittens how smart or tactical that 5 is, I would like to see them steamrolled for the good of the game (that is, that we don’t scare away the newcomers)
Also, you are COMPLETELY discounting the fact that there are MANY 40 man “zergs” that are highly organized efficient killing machines.
Btw, AoN is very good at winning 5 v 10+’s. I linked one of their videos already, it’s already possible to do things like 5v20 in the current state of wvw.
You can’t really allow the effect to be turned off as enemies often rely on the the visual cue so they can avoid wasting their high damage skills on you ( which is a fair mechanic ).
In all fairness, they could just look at your buff bar, which is how they know you have fury, retal, might, stability, etc. other boons which do not have obvious visual cues.
And also OP did mention that it should show up just in COMBAT.
Which I totally agree with.
A couple suggestions here
1) You could transfer servers. It’s quite expensive however. Servers like Sorrow’s Furnace dominate during certain times of the day. Certain servers that bounce between Tier X and Tier X-1 or Tier X+1 are likely to get their members map completion during their stay in the lower tier’d server. transferring to and back will cost anywhere from 40-80g and take a week, so I wouldn’t necessarily recommend it.
2) Run with your zerg. The downside to this is of course, they’re interested probably in capping things that will net them points, likely not what you need. Which leaves…
3) Join a wvw guild. They will be more organized in what they take and you will be able to decide when to join them on a raid to get what you need. And of course, there’s…
4) Organize a push with others who need the same spot! You can both help your server and people who need that particular location (I am guessing there are quite a few who need it based on what you’ve said about your server).
And of course, there’s
5) Roll a mesmer and you can solo cap an objective because they are so OP.
Ok, so this one’s a joke, but the top four are actual suggestions.
Good luck!
no.
The glicko system already is in place to balance teams. It doesn’t work super well but that just means the rating system needs tweaking, nothing to do with needing to fundamentally adjust gameplay.
I am fine with this, and so are most of the people I know who do wvw. It’s really a very outspoken minority who want nerfs to zergs just for running with large numbers.
Which is silly. Everyone knows higher numbers = bigger advantage. perhaps the one advantage that supersedes it is uplevel vs lv 80 in exotics.
God kitten TC, your ability to hold our bay is mind boggling -_-
Once culling is fixed, things are going to be very,very different
Source: 10 years of DAoC experience
Also removing AoE target cap will help.
Only if you remove boon sharing cap as well.
Only guardian I know doing this is siegerazer… Only he needs the nerf. His 30/30/30/30/30 build is a little op…
The ability to use focus 5 and hammer 5 with greatsword is I feel a little imbalanced.
That and he apparently has somewhere around the range of 20k + power.
Very very OP.
On topic: Siegerazer has pulled me through the gate into the inside of the wall before. I was stuck in combat so I couldn’t port either, and there was a massive Queue at the time, so i had to party an enemy invader and ask them to kill me. He was kind enough to do so. I paid him with a loot bag.
Naturally 30 guys should have a massive advantage over 5 guys, even if the 5 guys are more skilled. advantage in firepower, effective health, area control, and boon sharing. Skill only overcomes so much. You’ve been watching too many hollywood movies if you believe that sort of thing happens regularly.
Yes, it is possible to wipe 30 guys with 4-5, but most of you aren’t good enough for that kind of thing. You overestimate your skill. Even for those good players, it’s very situational. Here, read up on the Dunning Kruger effect. It’s really interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
You can watch people who are good enough to do that kind of thing on youtube, however.
Maybe learn instead of complaining. And for the record, roaming small scale battles are possible in wvw. I’ve had plenty of good ones uninterrupted by zergs. But if we’re talking WORLD vs WORLD then the emphasis is on LARGE scale, as in two armies clashing with each other, not seven or eight 5v5’s going on at the same time.
(edited by Teamkiller.4315)
Dyroth, why in the world would you want people to gravitate towards smaller groups? WvW is realm vs realm, if you want small battles stick to spvp, or make a camp squad for skirmishing in wvw.
At least in my tier, two opposing zergs spend time trying to find each other, not looking for groups of 4-5 guys to wipe. Those 4-5 guys are usually dealt with by 5-6 of our guys.
Anyways, I know a lot of you feel irritated that you’re beaten by 30 guys all the time and feel “I’m a great player! I have skills, all those people that killed me have no skills, we should really buff smaller groups so those 30 guys get punished and so our 5 guys can farm zergs and show off our skills”. What most people don’t realize is that they’re most likely AVERAGE. That’s a law of statistics. Those guys in the 30 man zerg? There are bad players, there are good players, but mostly they are average players. They don’t need to be punished just because they like strength in numbers".
In direct to the 5 man aoe cap, there’s a 5 man boon sharing cap. You remove the aoe cap, then i will argue for removing the boon sharing cap. You shouldn’t have your cake and eat it too.
Besides, there is no way for smaller groups to actually take defended towers, upgraded towers, keeps, or SMC. There’s just too much siege for 5-6 guys to take on if the structures are actually defended, and last time I checked, it’s those objectives that are worth points.
Rangers have the best water field in the game, Healing Spring which is amazing for large WvW fights when people need to heal. Traps are really nice as an AoE in a 1v1 and can get rid of alot of pesky thieves and are pretty useful in zergs with the throwing trap trait. Greatsword No.4 skill has a 4 second block which negates all ranged damage and blocks a melee attack.
Rangers are pretty useful but so are Elementalists. The staff has the only (to my knowledge) lightning field in the game making it useful for speed buffs with blast finishers. Staff has a range of AoE and the lightning field is a stun lock which is great for separating people from zergs. Utilities imo for Elementalists are lackluster and most of the utilities eles run with are selfish (cantrips). A good D/D ele will split a zerg and do damage to alot of them and make it out alive while a bad one will be burst down in an instance, it takes practice though.
I do agree that rangers have their utility in large fights, but eles are by FAR the better class for wvw. They don’t actually need to use supportive utilities because of their weapon skills.
I will say that the spirit of renewal is very very useful…and their traps + longbow 1500 range is also pretty useful. Other than that, there’s really not much a ranger can do that an ele wouldn’t be better at.
I remember this one time I got into a 1v3 against some players, and I killed 2, and was working on the last one when 2 more showed up to help. I killed 2 more and right when I downed the last guy, and was ready to stomp, and was feeling super amazing with myself… I got run over by their zerg because I wasn’t paying attention and died. I felt like such a tool at that point, lol.
I feel like you are bragging, and this isn’t an epic face palm moment…
One of mine, I charged alone into 30 guys stacking might.
Yeah so you know how to stack might on a fire field you have to blast it? Mmhm I got hit by all those blast finishers…
Downed 2 won’t work on targets with stability or targets who have aegis. Additionally it can be dodged because it counts as a normal attack.
Reduce reveal debuff time from 3 to 2 seconds?
Not to mention it gives a TON of personal healing, as much as the empower + AH heal.
Really? I’m going to have to play around with that.
Yeah, if you drop it in the middle of all your allies, it pulses stability 11 times for each ally. that’s on par with the empower heal.
Honestly a lot of classes can run away pretty easily. Eles can ride the lightning and/or mistform away, probably the best at escaping. Rangers can use evasive shot or sword 2 and lay down traps, crippling chasers. Warrior? Activate your almost perma swiftness and then greatsword 5 and 3, shield 4 or bull rush if needed. Guardian? Perma swiftness and staff 5 behind you. Use JI on bunnies or otherwise NPC mobs in front of you.
ALL classes have good escape utilities, it’s just that thief does it best. Coincidentally they also have the highest single target burst, and that’s what aggravates a lot of players. To be honest, they wouldn’t have this kind of utility in the open field, and wvw is about capping points and objectives. Suffice to say if you were to have this kind of fight against a thief inside a tower they wouldn’t be able to escape so easily.
Well said. Only thing I’d change is:
“If you were to fight against a thief inside a tower, they wouldn’t be able to escape to reset the fight so easily”.
Escaping isn’t really hindered that much by being in the tower unless you’ve somehow blocked them from the only stairs up to the wall. However, it does prevent the Thief from escaping, reseting, and coming back for another go … at least till you leave the tower :-p
Nah, I stand by it. The thing is, if you were fighting in the open field, if the thief wanted to run he could stealth and pick any direction to shadowstep in, and take off running. Inside a tower tho, if you’re fighting on the bottom floor he has to get up the stairs (unless it’s his own tower, then still he’s restricted to either 1 of 4 directions or the stairs).
And yea lol to the second part. If he wanted to come for another go, he’d have to stay inside the tower, and that’s pretty risky
Healing is more effective for low HP and high toughness against direct damage. If you heal for 6000 with 3000 armor it’s much harder for that direct damage dude to get the 6000 hp back down than it is if you healed for 6000 with 2000 armor.
HP hp low toughness = good against retaliation and condition damage
Lower HP high toughness = good against direct damage.
Honestly a lot of classes can run away pretty easily. Eles can ride the lightning and/or mistform away, probably the best at escaping. Rangers can use evasive shot or sword 2 and lay down traps, crippling chasers. Warrior? Activate your almost perma swiftness and then greatsword 5 and 3, shield 4 or bull rush if needed. Guardian? Perma swiftness and staff 5 behind you. Use JI on bunnies or otherwise NPC mobs in front of you.
ALL classes have good escape utilities, it’s just that thief does it best. Coincidentally they also have the highest single target burst, and that’s what aggravates a lot of players. To be honest, they wouldn’t have this kind of utility in the open field, and wvw is about capping points and objectives. Suffice to say if you were to have this kind of fight against a thief inside a tower they wouldn’t be able to escape so easily.