Guild Wars 2

I dunno about an assassin rifle because warriors seem to have you know, the same role. However, the thief could instead be a different kind of sniper, like a disabling sniper. First of all give them a trait that has 1500 range on the rifle. Then give them various weapon skills that disable certain skills on their opponent. For example, arm shot would disable their two most damaging weapon skills for a certain duration at random, knee shot would disable all gap closing skills and botch the next dodge roll, etc etc

Zacchary.6183:

Wow… just wow. You have not read a kitten thing I have written, have you.

yea, I have, and apparently you think mashing a 1 skill creates a cone of arrows on some profession that can hit a stealthed character with those arrows.

LOL.

Zacchary.6183:

Teamkiller.4315:

There are no ticks or indication that anything is being mitigated because there is no interaction between the thief and the projectile’s damage. Therefore, zero mitigation.

Look, I already told you I’m not interested in semantics. If you can’t admit stealth helps the thief avoid damage (alleviation), which is the very definition of damage mitigation, it’s on you.

How about you admit that you are not as good as you think you are instead of picking at my comments?

It isn’t my fault you can’t make an educated guess at the thief’s path. If you feel like being lazy when the thief stealths, then mash your 1-skill and make a freaking cone of arrows. You are going to hit them.

You fail to realize that there is an actual human player behind that thief who can see his opponent…and avoid taking predictable paths…and therefore damage…holy kitten dude.

How about you admit that you are not as good as you think you are instead of picking at my comments?

How does this even have to do with personal skill? I’m saying thief stealth mitigates damage, and you turn around and call me a bad guardian player (despite my 20k kills in wvw, rank 30 in spvp, 60% tourney win rate as paragon, etc etc, so you’re kinda wrong). Yeah, complete relevance there -_-

Also have you even looked at what you are typing?

So you declined my challenge to provide quotes.

The word choice you use shows obvious dissatisfaction with the thief compared to the other classes. You are clearly stating how the thief is much better then the other’s at what they do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

You seem pretty desperate to find something incriminating to argue against you’re trying to attack the TONE of my post. LOL

You should be attacking Travlane, he’s one one who’s EXPLICITLY saying that warriors are better, he even used some demented form of mathematics (for the record travlane, I’ve taken university level calculus, number theory, and linear algebra at an ivy league institution so insulting my math skills isn’t going to get you anywhere).

The way you phrased this makes it seem that the thief shouldn’t be capable of accomplishing such feats and thus you are making them appear as though they are much more superior to the other classes.

No, I didn’t.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Stop making up arguments and saying that I made them. I didn’t. I made a very specific and clear point; warriors having higher HP does not mean they have higher defense or sustainability than thieves.

One more thing what premises do you make to come to a conclusion that a thief has the highest burst? You make several points how the other classes burst is harder to pull off but does that mean the thief’s burst is higher? You also factor in alot of variables (dodging, hitting the rear of the target etc.) in one scenario but not for another, you cannot come to valid conclusion with this.

Yes? Thief has the mug C&D backstab combo. It has a higher damage multiplier than the mesmer’s burst and takes place in less time as well in addition to having utilities to increase damage (Assassin’s signet). Not to mention, it has an automatic disable in the form of basilisk venom. Not only is it easier to pull off, it does more damage.

Now, the drawbacks? There are plenty, no AOE, not invulnerable while channeling, broken with a stunbreak and a dodge whereas against the mesmer you need instant condition removal or invuln, and much longer of a cooldown to re-perform it, not to mention a thief that builds for this is generally far squishier than a mesmer that builds for it. However, does any of this change the fact that it still has higher burst? No, no it does not.

There are no ticks or indication that anything is being mitigated because there is no interaction between the thief and the projectile’s damage. Therefore, zero mitigation.

Look, I already told you I’m not interested in semantics. If you can’t admit stealth helps the thief avoid damage (alleviation), which is the very definition of damage mitigation, it’s on you.

I’m currently unaware of any instance where one of their attacks is successfully countered by the foe but the result is the foe has a defense on cooldown and the Mesmer/Ele/Ranger doesn’t care because they can use that same skill again as if nothing had just happened.

Autoattack. For a BM ranger, it would be crossfire, which is their bread and butter. The only other attacks that really need countering are poison spread on a very very low CD and concussion shot, which is an interrupt that doesn’t really need countering. Otherwise, crossfire out does everything and countering a crossfire doesn’t mean much really, cause you’ll be eating the next 10 crossfires regardless.

Phantas mesmers’ phantasms attack more than once. Sure you could try to counter it but in 5 or so seconds that duelist and that swordsman, they’re all gonna be on you again.

D/D eles…now not so much

Caom.9251:

No with travalane you were complaining about how thieves have better defences then warriors with shadow rejuvenation.

I’ve never complained about thieves having better defenses than warriors, much less actually said that thieves have better defense than warriors. Go find a quote where I say this.

If you are having trouble, let me help you understand; he brought up HP values in order to justify warriors having higher defense and whatnot than thieves, I asked him why guardians are considered even better at defense if they have the same HP as thieves. If you can’t understand my point by now, I don’t think it’s worth conversing with you.

This was also when you were complaining about burst. Thieves with insane burst go cookie cutter 25/30/0/0/15 and have utilities that mostly help amplify that burst.

I’ve NEVER complained about thief burst. Go ahead and find the quote.

Again, let me help you.

https://www.google.com/search?q=complain&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Stating facts, like thief has highest Single Target burst, is not complaining. Travlane isn’t willing to admit that, I’m just telling him he’s wrong. I’d like to know where you think I’m complaining about their burst.

Caom.9251:

Teamkiller I think you’re getting confused.

Thieves do not have 150 points to spend and can’t spec into everything. They also don’t have 30 utilities slots or access to all their weapons sets at once.

Thieves who spec defensively won’t hit you as hard and glass cannon ones who do something like a 10k burst die real quick under fire, with something like 14k Hp and nothing to migrate the damage I’m sure my i-berserkers have taken half their health in one shot.

I think you’re the one getting confused.

I dare you to find a single post to Zachaary where I say anything that could warrant a response like this from use.

AFAIK the only thing I’ve been pointing out is stealth helps you avoid a lot of damage. Nothing else.

When I go down I ask for a Battle Standard.

Otherwise yeah, guardians don’t have great downed abilities.

I made an edit because I didn’t think you actually paid attention to anything I wrote previously, and I was right. Let me make it clear once again:

I don’t give two kittens about the change. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t. What I said, was if it DOES happen, boost backstab damage to compensate.

Anyways, I don’t think missing a backstab should apply revealed. Maybe take them out of stealth, but boost backstab damage in compensation.

This is my EXACT quote.

Now, what my issue with you is, you think that this change will make all thieves useless, which is simply untrue.

As for beating thieves, stop with the ad hominem attacks. I have no trouble beating most thieves. Of course the good ones will defeat me, but that’s the price you pay for fighting good opponents. Something else I should mention is I rarely 1v1 because my spec is not for 1v1’s. It is optimized around 20vX and can perform adequately in 5vX situation. That having been said, I have beaten exceedingly to mildly incompetent thieves with my support build in 1v1 situations. So no, I’m not a QQ whiner wvw’er, I have 20k kills and I’m actually happy with how the classes are at the moment.

McFribble.2349:

Teamkiller.4315:

McFribble.2349:

Teamkiller.4315:

McFribble.2349:

YourOwnFear.2743:

I think his point is if you are doing nothing but using everything you have to counter backstab then that doesn’t prove backstabs effectiveness or lack thereof.

Well, I bring up a new point. If a thieve is changes to be revealed on a failed backstab attempt, what is stopping people from doing everything in their power to counter backstab by avoiding it at all costs (like people SHOULD be doing now), rendering the Thief completely useless?

Just like stunbreakers render bull rush useless?

If you’ve ever fought a good warrior, you’ll know that he has more disables than you have snare/stunbreakers. And he’s going to wait for you to waste them all before he sets up on you.

So what does a thief do?

Anyways, I don’t think missing a backstab should apply revealed. Maybe take them out of stealth, but boost backstab damage in compensation.

And again, you are missing the point.

Backstab Thieves rely on backstabbing. Period. You take a thief out os stealth on a missed attack, you change the meta so that EVERYONE tries to avoid the backstab, rendering said build near useless.

It isn’t going to fix anything other than making fights against Thieves that much more laughably easy with little compensation in return.

So that would only make BACKSTAB thieves useless, oh why didn’t you say so? I didn’t realize every thief ran Dagger MH backstab builds 100% of the time you know.

Anyways I’ve been more moderate around this issue because I don’t have a stance on it but your opinions are ridiculous. You think this nerf to one sneak attack on one weapon set that is used in one specific manner will render an ENTIRE CLASS useless. The only thing I can say is L2P, I haven’t backstabbed a single time in the last 20 hours I’ve been on thief.

Besides, it’s not as easy as you think to avoid a backstab from a 4s stealthed thief. Evades only last .75 seconds and recharge every 10 seconds. D/P thief can regen enough initiative to backstab again every 7 or so seconds. C&D thieves can do it in 5 if they land their C&D.

So you’re suggesting a nerf with no return? Of course it would render backstab thieves useless, seeing as how they’re build is based completely around stealth attacks. Yes, there are thieves who DON’T use daggers, but those Thieves also don’t rely on stealth as a mechanic nearly as much. This nerf to Thieves is a direct attack on burst specs, which basically means Dagger MH, seeing as how ranged attacks never actually “miss” their locked-on target. No idea why you are so shocked about this, as it was obviously the only build that CAN be effected by it.

Did I not say “boost backstab damage to compensate” or did you not read that? I’m not even advocating this change happen, frankly I don’t care if it does or not (I care that you are wrong about other things). I’m saying if it does happen thieves should get some compensation for it.

Also, I’m not shocked. You said the thief class will be useless after such a nerf, which I disagree with, because thieves don’t run dagger MH for backstabbing 100% of the time, obviously.

Travlane.5948:

@mcfribble i know the woes. anyway lets take guardian….the slowest…clunkiest class. ready? ok : ways to counter stealth/bs:

You mean the class with one of the best counters to thief??!?

hammer skill 3 — Are you kidding me? This will miss
staff skill 5 — thief just avoids it
mace skill 5 — Mace doesn’t even have a 5 skill, it’s a ONE HANDED WEAPON
mace skill 3 — Will block ONE BS, second BS on the way
shield skill 5 — Knockback for like 1 second. Thief catches up and BS’s. The only thing this counters is shadow refuge, but it does counter shadow refuge well.
shelter (heal skill 2 seconds)) — and thieves get 3-4s of stealth
sanctuary — 120 second cooldown
retreat — 60 second cooldown
bane signet (as going into stealth) — .75s cast time
tome of courage — 180s CD elite. Leave you vulnerable while using it
tome of wrath — 180 CD elite. Leave you vulnerable while using it
renewed focus — 90 CD Elite.
f3 — ONE block, thief BS’s again.
2 dodges per 10 secs (guessing). Actually, this is the only part where you underestimated the guardian. We can have near to actually permanent vigor due to vigor on crit minor trait that nearly everyone gets.

about 5-6 traits give aegis or renew aegis/block/blind too

You’re ridiculous. 2 traits give aegis and one is under comparatively rare circumstances, no traits give blinds unless you use a weapon skill or specific skills associated with it. Aegis and blinds only stop ONE backstab.

McFribble.2349:

Teamkiller.4315:

McFribble.2349:

YourOwnFear.2743:

I think his point is if you are doing nothing but using everything you have to counter backstab then that doesn’t prove backstabs effectiveness or lack thereof.

Well, I bring up a new point. If a thieve is changes to be revealed on a failed backstab attempt, what is stopping people from doing everything in their power to counter backstab by avoiding it at all costs (like people SHOULD be doing now), rendering the Thief completely useless?

Just like stunbreakers render bull rush useless?

If you’ve ever fought a good warrior, you’ll know that he has more disables than you have snare/stunbreakers. And he’s going to wait for you to waste them all before he sets up on you.

So what does a thief do?

Anyways, I don’t think missing a backstab should apply revealed. Maybe take them out of stealth, but boost backstab damage in compensation.

And again, you are missing the point.

Backstab Thieves rely on backstabbing. Period. You take a thief out os stealth on a missed attack, you change the meta so that EVERYONE tries to avoid the backstab, rendering said build near useless.

It isn’t going to fix anything other than making fights against Thieves that much more laughably easy with little compensation in return.

So that would only make BACKSTAB thieves useless, oh why didn’t you say so? I didn’t realize every thief ran Dagger MH backstab builds 100% of the time you know.

Anyways I’ve been more moderate around this issue because I don’t have a stance on it but your opinions are ridiculous. You think this nerf to one sneak attack on one weapon set that is used in one specific manner will render an ENTIRE CLASS useless. The only thing I can say is L2P, I haven’t backstabbed a single time in the last 20 hours I’ve been on thief.

Besides, it’s not as easy as you think to avoid a backstab from a 4s stealthed thief. Evades only last .75 seconds and recharge every 10 seconds. D/P thief can regen enough initiative to backstab again every 7 or so seconds. C&D thieves can do it in 5 if they land their C&D.

McFribble.2349:

YourOwnFear.2743:

I think his point is if you are doing nothing but using everything you have to counter backstab then that doesn’t prove backstabs effectiveness or lack thereof.

Well, I bring up a new point. If a thieve is changes to be revealed on a failed backstab attempt, what is stopping people from doing everything in their power to counter backstab by avoiding it at all costs (like people SHOULD be doing now), rendering the Thief completely useless?

Just like stunbreakers render bull rush useless?

If you’ve ever fought a good warrior, you’ll know that he has more disables than you have snare/stunbreakers. And he’s going to wait for you to waste them all before he sets up on you.

So what does a thief do?

Anyways, I don’t think missing a backstab should apply revealed. Maybe take them out of stealth, but boost backstab damage in compensation.

Full glass cannon build. Guardians can burst pretty hard

That’s at the expense of dying to a feather tho.

Oh and some spirit weapon builds require it. Other than that it’s generally a terrible terrible line.

I only have 300 but I artificially inflate that with life sigils to a more reasonable 550.

Also healing power scales terribly with AH. 1000 healing power would increase your healing by maybe 14% from AH.

Wait how does this happen? O_O

Shadowskill.9852:

Travlane.5948:

Shadowskill.9852:

Sebrent.3625:

Travlane.5948:

Sebrent.3625:

Travlane.5948:

Sebrent.3625:

Here’s the problem with your “challenge”, travlane. You won’t be trying to actually fight them, you’ll be simply trying to “not die to make your point”.

If the point in this game was to run from people, Norn would be the most OP race in the game (Snow Leopard represent!).

---

@Dasorine: other classes can suffer from those very same latency/technical issues. However they are punished for wasting abilities when blind, dodged, blocked, etc.

---

I don’t think most thieves are OP … in fact, i think most are rubbish. However, I think their skill floor is ridiculously low (i.e. lowest in the game) due to the fact that they have “training wheels” built-in where they don’t follow the same risk/reward mechanics the 7 other classes in the game adhere to.

no…it wouldnt matter….if my opponent isnt invis im not on the offensive anymore. so not really sure how thats relevant. and dying.losing.gettingdowned is of irrelevance tot he challenge. the challenge is to see how many backstabs actually hit the back when a player enemy is good. hence nobody taking my challenge bc they realize they will seriously prove a point against their theories

Yes it would. When a thief goes stealth against me, yes, I’m reacting so I don’t eat a backstab. However, I’m also reacting so that I can smash him in the face for the limited time he’ll be visible.

There is a big difference there compared to simply trying to not get backstabbed.

thats exactly what im going to do. im going to react when u go stealth. so plz take my challenge so i can prove to the forums that BS isnt op and shouldnt be on reveal. TAKE MY CHALLENGE lol :
heres the rules:
everytime you exit stealth—=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you miss—————-=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you get blocked-=—————1 failed attempt
everytime you facestab——-=—————1 failed attempt

lets see if u can get more than 1/5 backstab tries successfull

Travlane.5948:

tell you what. i wont even use a mesmer to hide behind clones…i wont even use a guardian so i can block/aegis/pushback or l.o.w. lol….i wont even use an engineer to use turrets…..i could go on… bottom line bs is fine the way it is…its a l2 kitten ue

No, it’s not exactly what you’re going to do. You’re not going to try to hit them for the win. You’re going to “win” by simply not fighting and avoiding.

If you are honestly tricked by mesmer clones, here are some tips:

• Clones attack slower than the real Mesmer
• Clones don’t have an offhand weapon equipped
• Clones only use the auto-attack
• Clones will only move to get you back in range and the movement will be only what is required to do that
• Clones don’t have sigil stacks
• When the Mesmer is not 100% hp, their freshly summoned clones are still summoned with a bar showing 100% hp
• Calling target can only be countered by stealth (which Mesmers have a limited amount, if any, of that varies by build).
• Clones don’t have food buffs
• Clones don’t have the boons their Mesmer does
• The only signet that shows up on both the Mesmer and their clones is the Signet of Illusions

Despite all those things, I still think they are great … Thieves would gripe.

As shown by the video, guardian aegis won’t do a thing.

All melee classes have some trouble against a good engineer due to their plethora of CC abilities. It’s one of the beautiful things the engineer community has pulled out of their bag of tricks.

If a Thief is targeted then goes into stealth. The clones will still follow the Thief and and perform whatever action you sent them to do. I 1v1 mesmers pretty often in Yaks Bend and can confirm 100% this happens.

Those things are pretty much fire and forget.

i think you mean the follow you after you are revealed right? they dont really follow you “while invised” or is that what actually meant?

I mean that before going into stealth, the mesmer will send his clones (Mind Wack,etc). I’ll go stealth and they will still follow me WHILE in stealth (Then Shatter when hit). You have to be targeted before stealth for this to happen. I just dueled another mesmer this morning and it happened again.

yeah, there are certain channeled abilities that follow a thief into stealth if they started before the thief stealthed. Volley, rapid fire, unload, illusionary unload, etc. There’s only one skill I know of that will target a thief in stealth AFTER the thief has stealthed, and that’s the guardian’s binding blade. I love it =]

Thieves also never had Jon Peters come to their forum say “we know your class is the most in need of help” and then experience mostly nerfs for the 5 months after that.

Rangers lol

You know what? BM rangers (one of two viable builds) are even MORE 1v1 oriented and useless than thieves in group situations. They do gripe a lot but I’ve never EVER seen them posit suggestions to buff their class on the level of absurdity that some of the topics in the forum like remove revealed, give thief 6 utilities, make them steal the entire skillbar of an enemy have.

Also countering dagger pistol requires a pretty specific skill. You need to interrupt their leap with a ranged attack. I know other D/P’s can do it with headshot, and rangers can use SB 5. Guardians can push them out of the circle with shield 5 but tbh they prefer to save that for when the thief SR’s. Mesmer can use GS 5 (although that’s also better for pushing the thief outta SR), etc etc.

See that link? Click it.

Every definition under mitigate says that it makes the entity less severe or easier to deal with. YES STEALTH MAKES DAMAGE EASIER TO DEAL WITH as many many attacks won’t even work, AOE’s have a chance of missing, conditions are cleansed, the thief moves faster, and the thief himself can just run, that’s why it is considered part of a thief’s defense. Do you understand?

Secondly, if you are wielding a ranged weapon it will more than likely have more ranged attacks (your auto being one). Imagine what a ranged attack with almost no cooldown can do!

What?!?

EDIT: W/e I am done. If you guys can’t use a little logic to somewhat predict where the thief is going to be running in stealth, when he is going to be in attacking range of you or what attack he/she is going to use next then maybe you deserve the death. Thieves are challenging to use and face (if they are decent). You would be surprised what thinking a little outside the box can accomplish.

You are forgetting something really important, and that is the thief is not an AI, rather he is a human being who will react to your AOE locations because there are big red circles and try to avoid them, yes, EVEN IN STEALTH. If even ONE attack that would have hit him out of stealth doesn’t hit him IN stealth that counts as mitigating the damage because he avoided damage he would otherwise take.

Anyways, this entire thing is a huge PR ploy in semantics. You want the thief to seem underpowered by insisting that stealth doesn’t mitigate damage and that good players don’t care about stealth they will hit the thief anyways…I would you to find ONE player who can hit a thief with a dragon’s tooth, a non pre-cast iZerker, a lightning strike, any projectile attack, etc etc. Are those attacks above a significant portion of their respective builds’ dps? Yes, and being able to completely ignore them is HUGE in terms of damage mitigation. So stop, the thief has plenty of defense in stealth, and maybe, just maybe, YOU are the one who is incompetent.

According to your logic, the only way someone can have damage mitigation in that case would be the protection boon. Guess how many classes do not have access to that boon?

Zacchary.6183:

Then.
Use.
Something.
Else.

You’re not getting it. Stealth mitigates damage. It isn’t an issue of using something else. There are some things you CANNOT use and almost all AOEs are either really really short range or on some form of a cooldown. They CANNOT be spammed, this means that stealth effectively shuts down a lot of damage.

The issue isn’t about damaging a thief, trust me I have no problems doing that on any toon, especially not my own thief. The problem is YOU CAN’T ADMIT STEALTH MITIGATES DAMAGE even though it blatantly shuts down a huge proportion of skills that exist in gw2.

Edit: Fine. You say stealth doesn’t mitigate damage? Then thief should lose against warriors 100% of the time because they can’t win an HP race against a warrior. Right? Is that what happens right now in wvw and PvP? Oh wait.

Zacchary.6183:

THEN USE SOMETHING ELSE.

TELL ME WHAT A SHORTBOW/LONGBOW RANGER CAN USE?

Barrage? The wannabe meteor-shower attack that roots you while the thief goes in for a backstab? That’s literally the ONLY skill on your weapon bar that you can use to hit a thief in stealth. You know what that does? It’s 90% weapon skill mitigation while the thief is in stealth.

Holy kitten dude are you so ardent about your defense of thieves that you cannot even admit that stealth is a form of damage mitigation? You think that a GOOD player is going to land literally 100% of their hits against a stealthed thief? You think good players can actually HIT stealthed thieves as if they weren’t stealthed? ANY hit that is avoided by breaking targeting, which makes many many weapon skills useless AND makes hitting the thief a guessing game. You seriously going to maintain that stealth doesn’t mitigate damage?

All I can say is, I hope Anet doesn’t listen to a single one of your suggestion cause your ideas on balance rival that of Daecollo’s.

Zacchary.6183:

You know… I posted 2 links which I am going to safely assume you never checked. So I am going to take a picture, highlight my point and you are going to stare at it until it clicks in your head.

CANNOT BE TARGETED

I will ask ONCE AGAIN that you do realize there are MANY skills that REQUIRE a target to damage yes? Like lightning strike? Ride the Lightning? Rush? Dragon’s tooth? In the case of some of these skills you cannot even activate it without a target.

So you going to ever hit me with that crossfire while I’m stealth?

Zacchary.6183:

Teamkiller.4315:

Zacchary.6183:

Have you ever stealthed and then get hit with ranged? I sure have.

Good god man have you no shame?

Stealth. Breaks. Targeting.

Go ahead and show me a ranger hitting you with a crossfire that is fired at you AFTER you stealth. Or anything other attack that REQUIRES a target. No, I don’t mean channeled attacks like volley rapid fire or binding blade.

You HAVE you admit that there are certain attacks that cannot hit a stealthed player because they require a target.

Then don’t use abilities that require a target. How hard is that?

You don’t need to target people to shoot projectiles unless the ability requires it. There is a good chance that if the Thief is running to your right and you sweep right that you will hit the Thief. If it is something that shoots multiple projectiles in a straight line, it is possible to hit the Thief multiple times.

Tell you what. I’ll shadow refuge, and you try to hit me with crossfire. You get 10g for each time you hit me with crossfire. If you can’t hit me, you pay me 60g (considering you can get about 24 crossfire shots in the 12 seconds of shadow refuge, hitting 25% would even out the odds)

Wanna take this bet?

Zacchary.6183:

Have you ever stealthed and then get hit with ranged? I sure have.

Good god man have you no shame?

Stealth. Breaks. Targeting.

Go ahead and show me a ranger hitting you with a crossfire that is fired at you AFTER you stealth. Or anything other attack that REQUIRES a target. No, I don’t mean channeled attacks like volley rapid fire or binding blade.

You HAVE you admit that there are certain attacks that cannot hit a stealthed player because they require a target.

Actually zacchary you are wrong. There are actually many attacks in the game that cannot hit a thief that has stealthed. I will give you a hint as to the kinds of attacks they are. Have you ever hit a stealthed thief with crossfire? How about body shot, vital shot? Or maybe long range shot? Scepter autoattack? A fireball from a staff ele? What about killshot? Or any of the warrior’s rifle attacks apart from volley? You get the point.

And there is NO class that can reduce condition damage. They can only cleanse it, which the thief can as well.

can’t view due to 49th post, test posting to see if this fixes it

you will implore me as to why? implore means beg……i think you mean you will show me why in the thread.

yup, missed the words “implore you to tell me”. Oops, typo.

thief and warrior are considered low bc they dont have enough control. warrior is still ahead unless its a 1 v 1 scenario as AOE dmg wont automatically own them….why?(now its rhetorical)….its bc they have higher hp and higher defense so they have more time to do damage.

-_-

I have no idea what you’re even saying. Low in what?

HP does matter. theres anotehr way of looking at this too. let count BLOCKS/HEALS/PROTECTION/INVUL/TOUGHNESS as extra HP. if u count the higher toughness (which means less dmg per hit) its a much higher HP pool for guardians. all the blocks? more hp that they have instead of losing. heals? add them to the hp pool too. if looked at like this (plus minus ratio) the warrior has like 40k hp and the guardian around 125k hp. so the trade off for guardians low hp low DIRECT dmg is high dmg mitigation (basically added HP)

I didn’t say it DOESN’T. I said you have no point in pointing out warrior vs thief HP pools. I used the rhetorical question on guardian vs warrior to make my point as to why, citing Guardian’s higher survivability despite lowest base HP, same as the thief actually.

And if you want to play it that way, a thief has a very high amount of EHP too. You factor in all the stealths where the enemy cannot reliably hit the thief. Put that into damage mitigation. Factor the 15 s cooldown heal that cures roots and slows and evades, their evades, their WEAPON evades, shadowsteps, teleports, factor ALL of that in, and maybe you will see why warrior have higher base HP doesn’t mean they are any better at thieves at bursting or sustain.

Travlane.5948:

now let me do thieves/warriors

CLASS——————ATTACK—————DEFENSE—————HP
WARR———————-9——————————9—————————10
THIEF————————9——————————5—————————-2

so if the stats are “roughly” rated like that IT DOES MATTER>….if HP DIDNT MATTER THEY WOULD GIVE THIEVES THE SAME AMOUNT lol…..cmon hp DOES matter

This is absolutely ridiculous. Why are thieves a 2 but guardians a 3 in HP if they both have the exact same HP?. Not to mention, you should be factoring in stealth and evasion to both damage mitigation AND defense. That is the thieves’ defense.

Also not all things are weighted equally, so you cannot take an unweighted average like that.

the question was not in the rhetoric sense. it was qualifying a term that needed it. it could have been player skill or class skills or traits . nvm anyway…. but i asked u to define “tanky” so we can avoid arguments that are about to follow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_question

A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question that is asked in order to make a point."

Which is exactly what I wanted to do.

a guardian actually has a pretty high DPS if u add in burning and retaliation damage … its hard bc its not direct dmg and depends on build/gear. lets put it this way ill categorize it into major areas and see why guardian is better overal 1 is the crappiest and 10 is the absoluet best it can be in game.

I didn’t say that it doesn’t? what I said is that a warrior has HIGHER dps than the guardian AND more hp, which is true. Yet, the guardian would win most of the times anyways.

see what i mean whenu look at it in a mathematical sense?

Sorry, but those numbers are completely arbitrary and don’t reflect what would happen. Actually some are just wrong. Why are warriors a 10 in HP but Guardians aren’t a 1? They have both the highest possible and lowest possible HP pools. If you answer “Armor” I’m going to say “that’s not part of HP, that’s part of something like damage mitigation, because armor is damage reduction”. Speaking of which, warirors have no damage reduction beyond pure armor and shield 5/endure pain, the latter which is on an over MINUTE cooldown, they do not have a reliable source of vigor and few condition cleanses available. So why is it that they have an 8 in defense and a 6 in damage mitigation? Both should be FAR lower. As for boons, warriors only have access to half the boons, only offensive ones at that. Again, defense is a joke because they have no access to prot, meaning they should definitely not have an EIGHT in defense. etc. etc. There are so many things wrong with that post above ^

I will implore you as to why this thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Fighting-Boon-Tank-Guardians/first#post1990362

Exists if warriors beat guardians 45 percent of the time.

Oh and if warriors are only 7 why aren’t they taken in tpvp? Why are they considered the lowest of the low in tPvP?

I’m done asking you rhetorical questions. Also, my English is far better than yours, as long as we go by the structure of our respective posts.

Here are the statements:

Currently Guardian would beat Warrior far more than the converse (No, it is not 55 45 in favor of the guardian, it is far more than that). Even though guardians have lower DPS and Warriors have higher DPS, and that guardians have 7.2k less base HP than warriors. Not only this, but guardians are the main tPvP bunker class, as in they can hold and last at a point for the longest amount of time given adequate build and player skill, while warrior cannot do that, but also cannot do anything else effectively in tPvP.

This is all possible with the guardian having 10.8k base HP and the warrior having 18k base HP.

So now, what was your point about thieves having 10.8k base HP compared to the warrior’s 18k? It means Nothing? That’s right. That’s my point.

Travlane.5948:

it might be your most proficient language but its not your first language.

It’s*

Look I don’t know what your issue with my linguistic skill is, I’m clearly good enough with the language to converse eloquently and even rectify your grammatical blunders. I cannot fathom a reason as to why it should be called into question.

about answering yoru question there needs to be a mutual agreement on “tankier” definition. and how hp isnt “underpowerd” im not sure what the 2nd part means

What’s with this over convoluted…my good god.

OK how about this. Given equal skill which class is FAR more likely to win a fight. Warrior or Guardian?

Lol this made me laugh…

Yeah that trait sucks. Guardian gives aegis prot and regen for like 10 seconds on revival…

Teamkiller.4315:

What in the world are you talking about, stop fabricating numbers. You listed the profession HPs as if they meant anything. So let me ask you, the warrior having 18k base health compared to the guardian’s 10.8k, (same as the thief incidentally) does that make the warrior more survivable than a guardian? Well? Does it?QUESTION MARKS RIGHT HERE

Teamkiller.4315:

So I ask you again, which class is more sustainable? Warrior or Guardian?QUESTION MARKS RIGHT HERE BRO Which class is tankier? Well the answer is guardian. Even though they have 10.8k HP. The reason is, unlike warrior, they have a ton of tools at their disposal to utterly mitigate damage. The thief has the same idea in mind; their tools are stealth and evasion. If you have trouble avoiding damage in stealth you are either terrible or you are playing someone who is good or counters your class with aoe. Neither means the thief is bad.

If you are joking, this is a bad joke. There have been question marks in the past two posts before that as well. Asking the same question.

So, are you going to answer? Which class is tankier, warrior or Guardian? It doesn’t matter, because everyone already knows the answer, but the important part is that you know WHY the Guardian is tankier, and why the thief having 10.8k base HP is balanced and perfectly viable.

Edit: Yes, I am bilingual, but english is my most proficient language by far.

Teamkiller.4315:

Look, I’m going to ask you once more, this is getting kinda ridiculous you keep on bringing up the HP values.

Which class is tankier. Which class has more sustain. Which class isn’t complete trash for spvp out of these two. Warrior or Guardian? <—THIS IS THE QUESTION MARK

Once more I will remind you the HP values on these two classes. Warrior: 18k. Guardian, 10.8k.

Answer.

15 character limit

Travlane.5948:

as i mentioned well before you….. and to have an answer there needs to be a question…

There is a question. Which class is tankier. Guardian or warrior.

which i have not asked. hence my message having no ?’s and being all statements. :P oh wait u were answering your own question which i already answered in several msgs earlier.

No, you haven’t. I’m asking a rhetorical question that serves to illustrate why I think you bringing up the HP values of thief mesmer and warrior to be trivial and the point you are trying to make is wrong.

if ur going to ask me “this is getting kidna rediculous you keep on bringing up the hp values” …. i must say sorry….im not sure how to answer that :/

There is a question in there, you can go find it. Here’s a hint, inquiries are sentences that end with “?” because I’m guessing that you didn’t know.

Look, I’m going to ask you once more, this is getting kinda ridiculous you keep on bringing up the HP values.

Which class is tankier. Which class has more sustain. Which class isn’t complete trash for spvp out of these two. Warrior or Guardian?

Once more I will remind you the HP values on these two classes. Warrior: 18k. Guardian, 10.8k.

Answer.

Travlane.5948:

i didnt say m esmer was reliable. but more reliable. when all 3 play burst mesmer and warrior ahve so much more hp which leaves room for mistakes and gives extra time to stay on the offensive.

Whereas thieves can enter in stealth and avoid a massive proportion of the damage that a mesmer or a warrior would otherwise take to go on the offensive. They have the luxury of landing the first strike in each engagement, whereas the warrior and mesmer have to set up their bursts. In the case of warrior it is easier because they have utilities to raise their adrenaline to full, but they still have to gap close. Mesmers have to summon all clones and phantasms and then sword 2 to immobilize to do their burst.

for instance if all classes take 1k dmg per second and all 3 classes are on the offense….which class has to stop first and enter defensive/heal/escape mode?

Why is this a bad thing? For the record, thieves have higher healing than warriors regarding most specs. Shadow’s rejuvenation and low CD heal per second, not to mention their massive uptime on stealth.

So I ask you again, which class is more sustainable? Warrior or Guardian? Which class is tankier? Well the answer is guardian. Even though they have 10.8k HP. The reason is, unlike warrior, they have a ton of tools at their disposal to utterly mitigate damage. The thief has the same idea in mind; their tools are stealth and evasion. If you have trouble avoiding damage in stealth you are either terrible or you are playing someone who is good or counters your class with aoe. Neither means the thief is bad.

Pentalic.5409:

Teamkiller.4315:

Daecollo.9578:

With the new traps coming into play, revealed should be completely removed, its not needed anymore if you can trap a stealthed foe.

Known for continually introducing thief changes that would be OP, including suggesting that thieves get all deceptions skills on f2 3 and 4 leaving them to choose other utilities for free and suggesting that a thief be able to steal an entire other profession’s utility bar and use all utilities twice in a row with improvisation.

Travlane.5948:

interesting idea. i have to 2nd this.

Someone who is also constantly on the outlook for how thief is worse than other classes and ignores how thief outperforms others in the same way.

Please, wait until the change is instituted before you suggest anything waaay overboard like…this…holy mother of god

I feel like, while you have a good point in saying that we shouldn’t get ahead of ourselves, you go against your own wisdom in going overboard with anti-Daecollo and Travlane preachings.
I do not agree with EVERYTHING these two individuals have to say regarding the Thief class (everyone has their own point of view) but they do a good job at starting conversation over thing that should be conversed about. The fact that they do this does not make it okay for you to bash on them and portray them in such a negative light.

Edit: I’m sorry if this comment seemed a little one-sided, but I feel very strongly that you, Teamkiller, are the one that started a pseudo-argument over something as trivial as this. People will post what they will in the forums. That’s what forums are for. A place where people will discuss what matters to them or what could matter to others. Singling out people as “whiners” or anything along those lines is not cool and shouldn’t be tolerated. If their posts don’t coincide with your beliefs about the Thief class, don’t read their posts.

Wow, I think I got one-sided again. Woops xD

Yeah, my bad about that. I was arguing against the people and not the arguments.

Although removing revealed would be quite overpowered.

Travlane.5948:

nobody good brings assassins signet.

Subjective view. “No one good brings assassin’s signet”? We are talking about single target burst potential builds. AS is nearly essential for such a build.

and yes warrior is the best at SPRINTING AWAY. we arent talkign stealth bc with stealth u dont have to run away. are you dumb? seriously stealth has NOTHING to do with “running away” its a free pass. no sprint no rush no leap no running no swiftness no teleport involved. lets have a race….ill get a lvl 80 warrior and you a lvl 80 thief. we will race from SW spawn of any borderlands up and around and back down to the SE spawn of same borderlands. ill bet you 100g that you(thief) will NOT win. im so serious about this. im on dragonbrand server. i really hope you take this bet.

Not interested in semantics. I didn’t mean sprinting away, nor did I mean a race. What I meant, and I think you knew, was escaping. Oh wait, that was the exact word I used in my original post. I didn’t say “running away”. I said escaping.

I also said they are better at chasing targets, which they are. I’m not afraid of a warrior coming after me when I’m down to 40% health. But you know what, I’m afraid of a thief.

and your a hypocrite? subterfuge isnt part of in combat mobility but its part of leaving combat mobility to get away? hows that work? :P

you’re*

Also I think you need to look up the definition of subterfuge.

https://www.google.com/search?q=subterfuge&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Deception, in other words. Thieves have an entire set of utilities called “deception”

again you missed the point? the HP shows a big deal.. thief is def not the best burst….bc in my opinion burst is more than a 2 skill combo. and im willing to bet the probability of both CND and BS successfully hittin consecutively are around well less than 25%. CND misses easily 50% and BS as well….between blocks….dodges…evades….stunbreak skills….blinds….invulenrabilty….aegis…. runnign away….or hitting front(issues on both). so im sure uve been thru hs algebra ya? .50×.50 is .25 (25%). lets say 40% is average crit rate for all thief builds (non condi builds) and lets now figure out the crit chance of hitting 2 successful crits on both skills. so our equation is {P(A+B) = P(A) x P(B)} so we now fill it in. Y = {.4(.5) x .4(.5)} math done…. Y= .04 ….so a 4% chance having both hit AND both crit.

What in the world are you talking about, stop fabricating numbers. You listed the profession HPs as if they meant anything. So let me ask you, the warrior having 18k base health compared to the guardian’s 10.8k, (same as the thief incidentally) does that make the warrior more survivable than a guardian? Well? Does it?

ps nobody spams HS. i only use it personally when under 25% hp aka a finishing blow. and the hp is like what 40% less or whatever for similar to less dps than warrior? hrm. armor same deal.

AKA after the mug CnD BS burst from a full glass thief.

can i ask how old you are? you seem to only respond to my posts….major trolling. im guessing well younger than me.

19, and I study at an ivy league university, if that makes a difference because obviously my age occuption moral character and other personal details about my life make difference to my arguments. Also I respond because you’re wrong.

Actually you originally said “many ways for guardian to apply aegis. a good many.”. There are only FOUR ways four guardians to apply aegis, and one is a profession mechanic and one is a terrible utility skill. So now, you’re basically changing your argument.

But yeah, you don’t know what you’re talking about. The fact that you think line of warding does anything close to blocking at all…shows that. The fact that you are in a “make things unblockable” thread when half the things that you listed do not in fact block or affect in any way mace head crack or steal/mug shows that as well.

If you think you only need to play a class for a month to master it, I invite you to any number of challenges we can use to verify that. Namely, why don’t you duel this lovely fellow by the name of Aynkou, who is also a guardian, and we’ll record how many seconds you last.

Travlane.5948:

2607 hours 31 mins on my thief. some is obviously afk time. but still. and i dont accuse you of anything :P

No, you’re not accusing me of anything. But I am accusing you of lacking knowledge when it comes to guardians, hence you should not be discussing any balancing that involves guardians, because you have no idea how they work.

randomfightfan.4091:

One thing that isn’t well known, withdraw isn’t instant cast. It’s fast, but it has about a .25s delay from when you cast it to when it goes off. No cast animation, just a delay before it casts. This isn’t lag either since my dodge goes immediately. It has the same kind of delay that sbow 3 has before going off.

I noticed the delay but whenever I am immobilized for a blurred frenzy I am stuck in place for about a quarter second but I still never took any damage from the blurred frenzy or shatters (it says evaded even tho I am in place). So while visually it’s not insta cast in practical terms it is

Travlane.5948:

well i was talkign skills/dmg/healing/abilities/mechanics ….not scouting…leading….commanding…..camp capping…..point bunkerings…more of the tangible.

What?!?

anyway. burst belongs more to warriors/mesmers.

No, thieves burst harder, and more reliably. The amount of QQ that comes from thief instagib vastly outnumbers the QQ from mesmer shatters or warrior killshots.

blurr and shatter outdo thief and so does warrior…wont even bother going into kill shot builds. thief is close to warrior tho…very very close 3rd. the only burst a thief has is CnD BS.

You forgetting heartseeker spam afterwards? Yes you are. You’re also forgetting assassin’s signet and other damage modifiers, like executioner for example. And that in order to burst as hard warriors need a full bar of adrenaline and mesmers need all their clones and phantasms up.

anyway big difference in zerkers THIEF 10.8k hp. wwarrior 18.Xk hp mesmer 16.8k hp.

Does HP tell the whole story? Well I guess since GUARDIANS have 10.8k HP they must be less of tanks than warriors right?

yeah i guess u could add bleed stacking in there..but just bleeds. condis goes to necros/engies.

Bleed is the highest viable fully stacked DoT in the game.

chasing targets goes to warrriors.

Are you kidding me?

Let’s have a contest. If my thief can’t get away from your warrior, you win. 20g. Want to take it up?

subterfuge is partof in combat mobility.

No it’s not. They’re two different things.

Travlane are you serious? I don’t believe you for a SECOND.

resolute healer – multiple blocks on reviving. (X amount of damage) <— Yeah that’s REALLY useful. On REVIVING. No one takes that trait anyways because the other honor traits are frankly better. Also, i didn’t pay attention to the name, but now that I did, it is projectiles ONLY.
courageous return – extra VoC on rally <—Which means we have to get downed first. What’s the problem?
valorous defense – aegis on 50% hp every time <—Yup. Minor trait
shield of avenger – summon shield that blocks for party <— Projectiles ONLY.
santuary – AOE blocks multiple melee and ranged 6 secs <— Does not block melee. You are wrong
retreat – party aegis <— Yup. Terrible shout though, the other three are almost always taken in place.
virtue of courage – party aegis <— Yup, profession mechanic.
renewed focus – multiple blocks plus 1 aegis (VoC) 3 secs <— No, it does NOT block. It is an elite that recharges our virtues, yes.
shelter – multiple blocks while healing 2 secs <— And is balanced by the fact that it heals half as much as the other heal skills. Actually, it heals roughly as much as the thief’s withdraw which more powerfully EVADES attacks, and is on TWICE the cooldown.
protector strike 3 blocks <— ONE block, not three.
shield of absorption multiple blocks 4 secs <— Projectiles ONLY
wall of reflection <— projectiles ONLY
line of warding <— WTF? This doesn’t do ANYTHING similar to blocking at all.

Conclusion? You don’t know what you are talking about and before advocating changes to other classes you should first know your kitten. You’ve lost all credibility and so good day to you.

Also, I have many hours on thief, before you accuse me of double standards. And yes, I’ve played all the popular builds. Instagib D/D D/P P/D and D/D evasion.

It has a ridiculous 5 second stone duration, and yeah you can’t cleanse or stunbreak out of it. You can however use instant cast skills but you’re still stuck in stone.

Travlane.5948:

many ways for guardian to apply aegis. a good many.

You have no idea how guardian works do you?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aegis

There are only TWO skills that give it, and only ONE utility skill that does it.

Virtue of courage: 90 second cooldown active. Also grants aegis 40s if active effect not used. Granted, every guardian has this.
Retreat: 60s cooldown. No one uses this because it’s a terrible terrible shout and the others are far better.

There are two traits that give it. One gives it on reaching 50% health. Minor trait
The other is a Major trait that gives it when we revive someone and ONLY when we revive someone.

There are no other ways for us to gain aegis other than using runes but any class can do it.

So what are the “many ways” we can apply aegis again?

Travlane.5948:

Teamkiller.4315:

Daecollo.9578:

With the new traps coming into play, revealed should be completely removed, its not needed anymore if you can trap a stealthed foe.

Known for continually introducing thief changes that would be OP, including suggesting that thieves get all deceptions skills on f2 3 and 4 leaving them to choose other utilities for free and suggesting that a thief be able to steal an entire other profession’s utility bar and use all utilities twice in a row with improvisation.

Travlane.5948:

interesting idea. i have to 2nd this.

Someone who is also constantly on the outlook for how thief is worse than other classes and ignores how thief outperforms others in the same way.

Please, wait until the change is instituted before you suggest anything waaay overboard like…this…holy mother of god

i dont say thieves are worse at everything. never anywhere even once. i never said thieves are teh best at certain things. ill even make a list:

Best at :

1) In combat mobility
2) Stealthing

am i missing any?

Single target burst. Escaping. Resetting fights. Scouting. Killing the already weak. Evasion. Bleed stacking. Blast finishing. Subterfuge. Chasing targets.

You missed a lot. That isn’t even a complete list.

randomfightfan.4091:

Because it would increase the skill ceiling of the class by a lot and give the class an actual counter to things that can block and heal at the same time. Atm I’m pretty sure it’s just guards and eles (arcane shield), but since they both pretty much never die to thief, it’d be nice to have some way counter play.

There is counter play…aegis is on a 90 second cooldown…you see a guardian has aegis on? Don’t waste your burst. Don’t waste your heavy hitting skill. Autoattack it THEN use mace head crack. I’ll remind you, this daze is the longest in the game.

As for shelter, it has an extremely low heal/time ratio. The reason people use it is BECAUSE it gives them pseudo immunity, and even then you can interrupt it in the very beginning. If a ton of things were suddenly unblockable, you would see no guardians running shelter, they would all be running the 10k heal condition clearing signet of resolve. There is no way you can stop that heal once it has gone off, just like there is no way to stop withdraw (unless you were already previously stunned). It’s perfectly balanced, unless you were willing to give up withdraw’s instant cast time, you know.

You already have an unblockable attack that strips boons.

Also the reasoning behind making the guard steal unblockable is along the lines of “the only way to get through all that defense is with a piece of the beast itself.”

That’s absolutely ridiculous logic. By that same logic since I am a guardian shelter shouldn’t work on my attacks right?

What possible reason would you have for making them unblockable?

Guardians attacks aren’t unblockable to other guardians.

Steal, I agree, should be unblockable though. Mug, not so much.

Daecollo.9578:

With the new traps coming into play, revealed should be completely removed, its not needed anymore if you can trap a stealthed foe.

Known for continually introducing thief changes that would be OP, including suggesting that thieves get all deceptions skills on f2 3 and 4 leaving them to choose other utilities for free and suggesting that a thief be able to steal an entire other profession’s utility bar and use all utilities twice in a row with improvisation.

Travlane.5948:

interesting idea. i have to 2nd this.

Someone who is also constantly on the outlook for how thief is worse than other classes and ignores how thief outperforms others in the same way.

Please, wait until the change is instituted before you suggest anything waaay overboard like…this…holy mother of god