Guild Wars 2

Slamz.5376:

I would start fixing this by removing golems from the game and making rams cost 100 supply, in order to make it harder for a zerg to swiftly bash down doors.

This wouldn’t be a fix because in order to actually get a ram going without having to run supply (and risk your half built siege being destroyed while you are not defending it) you would need at least 10 people. That’s against a paper gate. If you want to destroy a reinforced gate in time you need at least 2-3 regular rams, which means 20-30 man zergs would be needed without running supply. That’s not even considering superior rams, which at its current state cast 166% of the supply of a normal one, which means if you plan to use superiors to bash a gate down you’re going to need at least a rather large number of people.

IMO this change would make people gravitate towards even larger groups.

Fighting in or against zergs of 70+ is not fun for me.

So yes, I agree with this.

That having been said, if you have anything near equal numbers and the enemy is running in one zerg of 70, it’s really really easy to beat them. You might not ever beat them in direct combat until you consolidate your own forces, but you will be capping much more than they are even if you split your forces just into two parts.

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

Then you aren’t doing your job to well :P.

No, we noticed that actually. Every time my group ran up against VK we adjusted, and coordinated our pulls to after we spammed our boon cleansings skills (aka null fields). It worked really well to picking you guys apart until there was no one left.

Well, our group hasn’t wiped while I’ve been in it…so you must have done this while we didn’t have someone spamming stability heh.

Remember how I said I specialize in stability? I have both group stability utilities for guardian equipped when I run with our guild. And the second one pulses stability 11 times once every second.

Last night I also noticed a guild from ET that I’ve never seen before [Agg] Aggression. They were using the same tactics that VK used, it made me wonder if they transferred down from another tier as well. Huddled up, use lots of combo fields, run through masses groups together. They didn’t have the numbers that VK had so we began perfecting our cleanse/pull strategy on them, it was an awesome learning experience.

Formerly SoS, transferred to blackgate. I dunno when they xferred to ET tho o_O

SF have been cool opponents.

I mean yeah, I do get laughed/danced on more than in t2, but still, I won’t judge an entire server by like 4 peoples’ actions. From my experience so far they’re cool opponents.

Judging from this forum at least. With the exception of one person cough lv 25 cough

. Focus mesmer pulls, mass fears, (yeah I know 3-4 guardians/warriors could counter with stab., but there are counters to everything) separate those people(s) from combo fields and each other and thin the herd so to speak.

not on my watch buddy, i’m our group’s guardian and I specialize in stablity

Dogsmack.4910:

The only strategy you brought from t2 was portal bombs

oh man i cant compete with that LOL

Stay classy my fair weathered friends
but I must admit it takes a great player to kill a lvl 25 upscale :P

hugs n kisses

You seem upset

I just have one question.

Umad?

There are six members of VK that are guardians. AFAIK I’m the one who roams the most.

And yes, I have a support build that’s pretty sub optimal for dueling. None of my utilities really benefit a solo player, and I have a staff equipped that never does anything in small scale situations except finish off the almost dead. So yeah, if you catch me in a solo situation, as long as you are not a bad player and are not upleveled, you should beat me. (That having been said, there are a lot of bad players)

That having been said, I’ve been doing pretty well in roaming despite this build, and I don’t recall losing any 1v1’s to anyone in this tier (because I’ve not been in any 1v1’s in this tier :P). Yesterday four FC, including 1 D/D ele from VK and myself had a pretty exciting battle against SF in FC bl’s SF spawn. You guys had over twice our numbers but were almost all upleveled unfortunately, hence why we were able to kill so many :P. A level 80 necro who knew what he was doing then showed up and ruined our day =[.

Oh btw, score update:

You guys make me so proud sniff

uzu.7351:

Ppl not playing thief should not be here! I don’t lurk your forums seeking to spread hate and my lack of skill.

I play thief.

Also, stop telling people they shouldn’t be here. A lot of people who don’t play thieves still play AGAINST thieves. There are posts on the mesmer forums by guardians asking for tips on how to beat them, likewise there are threads in the guardian forums by warriors asking the same.

Etc. etc.

You seem to have taken sides without even reading the argument. Neither of us is calling the thief class OP or UP. Neither of us thinks the 4 second revealed debuff was the best change.

Also I don’t play ele.

That doesn’t prove anything. The fact of the matter is you seems to be confused on what DPS means versus to what Burst damage means.

dps = damage per second = sustained damage.

Dude, thieves have the highest single target dps and highest single target burst as well, this has been repeatedly stated by the game’s designers and that is how the profession is designed.

Again, I can demonstrate for you that they can still hit like a truck. Need me too?

DPS requires staying power that relied heavily on Stealth. With the 1 second extra reveal, we have to run away/dodge/evade/etc until we can stealth again. We stay, we die.

It also requires mobility because your target is going to run evade and generally make it hard for you to hit them. Thieves, apart from eles, have the highest mobility in game.

Again, not talking about PvE. Thief was underpowered before the patch in PvE.

It is impossible to trust you when you say things like these because it is baseless and non-factual.

I can make them “facts” if you want me to. I really don’t want to look through an hour of a SoTG just to prove something really obvious.

I have not made an argument until now and I don’t have to fabricate anything since everyone can read what you posted.

I guess? I didn’t say you made one did I? I said you misrepresented mine.

Any profession can survive a zerg if they know what they are doing.

I think you are wrong.

Well, apparently, so does Yishis. Need a link?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Videos-WvW-Outnumbered-Zerg-Slaying-D-D

Towards the bottom, someone asks if another profession could do this.

That’s my point. What’s yours?

You’re being pedantic.

If you understood it, then why are you calling my post an Ad Hom?

Because instead of attacking the argument, you are attacking the person as not being able to see it from the POV of a thief despite said person having many many hours on sPvP as a thief.

So are you telling me that you blow all your CDs everytime you swap weapons?

No

I’m saying if I use Hammer 5, and I weapon swap twice, it won’t be available immediately, like you said it would.

If not, then I am correct to assume that you are full of it when you say that Ele manages 20 CDs. Because at any given time, they are probably only managing 5-8 skills in between attunements, similar to weapon swapping professions.

hah, I’d like to see you find where I said the Ele manages 20 CD’s at once. The closest you’ll come is me saying they can only see 5 Cooldowns out of 20 at any given time.

See what I mean by misrepresenting an argument?

I try not to bother so much as to reply to posts such as yours in a normal manner since honestly, you are dead wrong in many levels that it’s ridiculous to point them all out.

You seem to be enticed by your own delusions.

That’s, by the way, the correct spelling of delusions.

Hey, I’ll be pedantic too

The fundamental problem is the staying power like the OP said. To compensate for that, the Thief are given a lot of DPS.

Lolwut?

You realize that as a guardian I am lucky, I have access to a lot of pbaoes. Certain classes and builds like longbow ranger and pistol pistol thieves cannot hit ANYTHING without a target. Stealth is a hard counter to them.

Am I calling them OP? No. However, what I am saying is that they suddenly are immune to half the enemy’s dps, especially physical projectiles, in stealth, and enemies cannot reliably hit them with gap closers until it’s too late and they can escape.

Rinse and repeat.

Thief has enormous staying power, sorry, but you really should play the class better if you don’t think so.

With the changes on revealed, we get laskluster staying power and cummulative broken negative effect in our DPS.

No, your staying power is still awesome. Now your enemy just has to burst you in 4 seconds instead of 3, and you also have the benefit of dodging and weapon evade skills.

You’re not going to argue that staying power is bad for a thief.

As for DPS, like I said, I don’t particularly care for the nerf nor necessarily feel it’s justified, but your staying power? That’s still pretty darn high.

Whether it is in PvP or in PvE, the negative effect of stealth in our DPS is significant, noticeable, and annoying.

You are very lucky. Not many other classes can get away quite like a thief and reset fights.

Whether you notice it or not is not relevant. The fact is, it’s there. And I disagree, it is noticeable.

Right, because I play a guardian main, so my opinions don’t matter, this is obvious.

Or, maybe, because I disagree with you, my opinions don’t matter?

Huh

Thief has no staying power. You get caught, you’re dead. You said it yourself, GC breaks like glass.

Hence why good thieves have 30 in SA. Also, good glass thieves don’t get caught very often, because there’s this mechanic called stealth.

So now that with extra 1s of reveal, it is now a guaranteed anti-GC, right? But that is not the case, instead that extra 1s only nerfed the DPS.

Not necessarily, you have 1 extra second to burst a GC. You have a much higher chance of killing a glass cannon. Glass cannon DPS also goes down.

Staying power is reduced, for thieves that invest in staying power line, they are still pretty survivable compared to other classes.

What’s the problem? Don’t say PvE, cause OP isn’t complaining about PvE, and I’m not saying the patch is even justified. I’m just mentioning that the nerf to staying power isn’t classbreaking. Jeez.

In your opinion.

Do I have to link very obviously available Vids for you to actually like acknowledge anything?

The nerf is targetted on Thieves and it just so happen that other class are affected also in really negligible level.

Quickness nerf affected warriors the most out of any class. So did Omnom nerfs. Other classes were affected at a comparatively negligible level for the Omnom nerf, because their staying power are all significantly higher than the warriors’.

Does that mean they aren’t cross class nerfs? No it doesn’t.

The original point was rizzle refused to acknowledge that warriors mesmers or eles got nerfed…despite them getting nerfed. It’s really obvious. He called them “Balancing issues” whereas this stealth chance is a “nerf”? double standard much?

You are arguing based on your narrow perspective rather than trying to see it from our perspective.

Likewise, you can only see it from a thief’s perspective, it seems.

Where did I say trust me and REFUSE to provide evidence? If you don’t trust my word just ask for the evidence.

The only “evidence” you have shown is your opinion. So what makes your “evidence” better than my “evidence”?

I really hate linking things but I did link the video.

And I shouldn’t have to link another one, but in one of the SoTG the devs mentioned that thieves are easier to play at lower levels than other professions, while the opposite is true at higher levels.

If you’re going to brush it off and force me to give more evidence I’m going to be quite annoyed, but I can find it if needed.

If you want me or anyone to trust you, then you have to present and acknowledge facts instead of trying to brush it off by saying “trust me”.

You mean like…give evidence?

gasp

Which you’ve given none of so far.

There can be new thief rotations?
Can be?
That implies there was a choice.
Is there really a choice?

…um…yes? There’s a choice. You can keep using your old rotation or you can adapt to the one second extra revealed.

And why is signet of malice in this when its a healing signet and not an escape tool like withdraw, are you talking about hide in shadow being a precursor to thieves’s sneak attacks, lol.

Because they are healing skills that do not give stealth, whereas you seem to think long uptimes of stealth are absolutely necessary for a thief (hint, the other really strong thief build prior to the pistol whip nerf did not rely on long uptimes of stealth.)

Oh I see so there was personal emotions behind this.

Trust me, you can still dish out the damage. I ate a 7.5k backstab + 4k heartseeker yesterday from a GC thief. Yes, he was full GC and went down to 4-5 autoattacks but trust me, you can still dish out the damage.

Remember what I said about my armor rating being at 3.2k?

You ever thought that maybe, I dunno just a hunch, you could be bad and let a thief for 11.5k worth of damage and then dying to a couple of auto attacks?

No, because if you READ you would notice that I hit him four or five times with autoattacks and he went down. It’s hard to do that when I died, so the natural conclusion is that I didn’t die.

Right?

Also, you’re welcome to see if I really am a bad guardian who dies to thieves a lot. I can assure you I don’t have any problems fighting most thieves I come across. (good thieves kill me, but then again, they are good players and deserve to)

Sounds like you have pretty crappy hp to me.

See when I thieve, most guardians provide a challenge.

See it’s hard to see a steal coming, I blocked his Mug with my first aegis but I didn’t react to the backstab because I didn’t even know he was there. I dodged 2 heartseekers, and ate a third one, then healed. I don’t actually need to describe this fight to you, do I? Rest assured, we didn’t lose.

It was also 2 on 2, not 1 on 1.

They have those annoying protection buffs, aegis and snares, Id go invisible they spin around in place with a GS making it hard for me to come close to them also, makes front and back impossible to detect.

I know how to fight thieves on my guardian.

The moment I come out of stealth they hit me with an immob, if I were a bad thief I would be brown bread but luckily I can shadow step away and call it a day they aint worth the fight.

And so can any thief that the guardian cannot burst down. I was lucky I downed that thief because he strafed around in Shadow Refuge taking autoattacks, so yes he was bad. I cannot reliably kill them if they use shadowstep at all because they have a double snarebreaker with shadowstep.

Also my build is support, not design for duels, so naturally I won’t kill them unless I have someone bursting, it’s a duel so they won’t run, or they are just really bad (my partner was a warrior, if that matters), or if they get overconfident and/or overcommit.

The problem is you, not thieves.

You need to check my post history. I absolutely do not and have not ever called thieves OP. I have commented that it is annoying to kill them given that many run as soon as they are losing, and they are very VERY good at it. I don’t necessarily agree with the 4 second revealed debuff but this guy, the OP, was complaining about thieves’ staying power in pvp, and I’d like to just inform him that it is ENORMOUS and he shouldn’t be complaining because as is thieves still have an enormous amount of it.

Oh and heres a trick on how you learn to manage your cool downs on your weapons, time it with another skills cooldown when you switch weapons.

I run two completely different weapons for different purposes because I am large scale support, I am not specced for duels nor small skirmishes. Hence, I do not switch weapons often because there’s honestly not much of a point, as staff is completely a support weapon, so I never switch into it unless I am trying to chase said thief.

Messing up int and having int being shared on 2 weapons means your SOL.

One word:

Utilities.

I play an ele and I manage 4 cooldowns and I do just fine from using cooldown timers from one bar to keep track of the cool down from another.

Then you must be either really good or really bad. Really good as in it’s effortless for you, or really bad in that you’re not getting the most out of constantly switching and combo’ing your own fields that you will place down for multiple purposes (ring of fire to prep for fire grab AND as a fire field to stack might with your earth attunement, for example. Those cooldowns all need to be managed)

And what would that prove?

The fundamental problem is still there.

Look back at what this quote chain was about, and you will see. It has nothing to do with the “fundamental problem” of a smidgen less dps in PvE, which again, I already said needs fixing.

Now tell me, how is that rotation affected by the Stealth nerf?

It didn’t. So your perspective of the problem is too narrow.

I need to wait an extra half second in BP to cast HS because I’m revealed for 4 seconds instead of 3.

I don’t really notice it, however. And I do not PvE with my thief, which again, I already said needs tweaking.

Again, narrow perspective.

Again, he’s complaining about staying power, not PvE, which for the third fourth fifth time I’ve already said needs fixing.

“staying power is enormous” YET “zerg surfing other than a thief”

Thieves can zerg surf and get kills if they are good, whereas a good guardian or mesmer would die?

You keep on saying that other classes are affected by reveal too yet you have not posted in what way they are affected.

Instead, you just want us to “trust” you. Wow.

Very very minorly, except for mesmers who are still affected minorly.

But that wasn’t the issue HERE, the issue is him refusing to acknowledge the stealth nerf as a cross class nerf that happened to impact thieves the most.

I disagree. Trust me, you’re wrong.

See that?

Where did I say trust me and REFUSE to provide evidence? If you don’t trust my word just ask for the evidence.

I’ve only used the words “trust me” twice in this entire thread. One time is that thieves can output enormous dps still. I can go find a thief in SF to practice on my 3.2k armor guard and screenshot the damage if you need.

The second time is saying you have it better than a lot of other classes when it comes to cooldown management. You have ONE global cooldown whereas other classes have TEN (and eles have TWENTY). D/D backstab builds usually use two skills, and before their opponent is low only ONE skill.

Clearly you think you are extremely clever in turning my “reasoning” around on me when you just fabricated an argument you say I made.

Lol.

After you find me a video of a purple unicorn with bat wings.

You brought up mesmer as a class that can zerg surf as well as a thief, so prove it.

lol you don’t even know what that means. :p

I already gave you the definition in an earlier post, how much do you want to bet I don’t know what it means, especially when the definition is on the first sentence in the link.

And you use them why?

Because they are important.

har har.

to be completely honest, from an objective point of view, your posts to me have much less substance than your posts elsewhere…or even your EARLIER post to me. It really seems like you’re just trying to be witty while avoiding arguments.

Yes, you are a victim of your own dillusions.

Because the Devs agree in the recent SotG, Thieves needs mobility.

Pretty sure I’m not deluded. Want me to link some of these builds for you?

Pick a rotation. Go on, pick one. Oh, pick the one that YOU use.

We’ll see.

BV unload steal-mug backstab HS if low, otherwise autoattack BP HS (restealthed from here)

I beat the majority of other thieves 1v1 with this.

LOL! You agree that it is cumulative drop in DPS and you call it “trivial”?!

Wow. Just WOW!!!

Talk about out of touch.

Because thieves need more dps?

Thieves have the highest single target dps in the game, and still do, especially now that frenzy HB took a massive massive nerf.

Again. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

So please, pick a build, rotation, whatever.

We’ll see.

Again, find me a video of any other class zerg surfing other than a thief.

I can link you a bunch WITH thieves, if you’d like.

Your staying power is enormous.

Mesmer.

There.

What’s your point?

Lolwut?

Notice you picked the only other class with reasonable access to on demand stealth? cough affected by revealed too cough. Also, they have nowhere near a thief’s staying power.

Thief is almost always one of the last to survive, staying power was extremely high before and still is.

Fine, find me a video of a guy who consistently zerg surfs as a mesmer. And gets kills while he’s at it.

I don’t trust you because you don’t know what you’re talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Typically, weapon swapping has ~10s cooldown, and by the time you burn all skills in the current weapon set, the other set is ready to go.

Typically, the last two weapon skills have 20-40 second cooldowns.

Ready to go? Don’t make me laugh.

It’s laughable to see that you think Ele manage 20 CDs at all times. lol.

They switch attunements REALLY quickly. So yes, they are managing many more CDs than a thief. Do you know how they keep all those boons up all the time? Combo fields and finishers with their own rotations. don’t trivialize playing an ele, it’s a lot harder than it looks.

Irrelevant. Your posts says otherwise.

Because I’m not crying about the nerfs? Right…

You want to actually learn to read what an ad hom actually is

appealing to one’s prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one’s intellect or reason

Your second paragraphs is all Ad homs, dont even try to deny it.
My calling you out on your unwarranted behaviour is pointing out your lack of respect for another person’s concerns.

Because frankly the OP was pretty rude and generalizing everyone who had complaints about thieves the same way you describe me as treating his complaints.

Seems like someone has a double standard?

Also, wrong definition of Ad Hom. That’s another fallacy called appeal to emotion. Ad hom is simply

" is an argument made personally against an opponent instead of against their argument".

There have always been eles who used RTL as a closer and air attacks as control, and relied on condition damage from burn and bleed and there have been glass cannons who have had been toned down and learned a new rotation whilst the previous sort of eles did not have a problem.

Now there can be thieves that learn a new rotation as well!

The problem with Stealth nerf to 4 second reveal debuff is that it’s UNIVERSAL, meaning even if you’re NOT a D/D thief, your pistol sneak attack is still going to suffer.

Because mobility thieves don’t exist, because no one uses withdraw or signet of malice, and thief builds that don’t rely on sneak attack every 3/4 seconds don’t exist.

Yup, I believe you 100%.

This “nerf” was supposed to fix stealth abuse in WvW, but IT DOESNT.
instead its punishing people like the OP from and making them feel worthless because they cant dish out the damage.

Trust me, you can still dish out the damage. I ate a 7.5k backstab + 4k heartseeker yesterday from a GC thief. Yes, he was full GC and went down to 4-5 autoattacks but trust me, you can still dish out the damage.

Remember what I said about my armor rating being at 3.2k?

4second reveal debuff is a pointless nerf and uncessary and only punishes the thieves PVE gameplay not the PVP.

Yep, I agree. Well, it punishes PvP a little.

This guy, tho, is complaining about PvP, not PvE. I have no problem with people who complain about PvE thieves because frankly, they were underpowered BEFORE the patch.

Really initiative bar is so easy to maintain.
Do you know how easy it is to kill glass cannons after they’ve made a kill?
Super easy, you know why?
No initiative, you know why?
They dont know how to maintain initiative.

Wrong answer. Do you know how easy it is to kill glass cannons?
Super easy, you know why?
Because they’re GLASS.

Except thieves were the exception to that rule because of their extreme mobility and stealth. Now they made them easier to kill after the thief attacks, and the dude is complaining about their previously extreme staying power coming down a notch.

I’m displeased.

Global cooldowns are easier to maintain than initiative.

no

The change to RTL did not affect all other Ele’s build unlike the change to Stealth.

You’re way off on this one.

Of course, because the mobility evasion thief builds I see on this forum and occasionally use are actually nonexistent and I’ve been imagining things.

Must be.

It is obvious that you don’t play a Thief because it’s not just about rotation.

I don’t use that rotation. You saying there’s only one thief build?

That extra 1 second that we cannot sneak attack is a cummulative drop in DPS. It doubles the negative effect every rotation — it’s not just 1 second.

Yeah, I know it’s a cumulative drop in dps. Compared to what other classes took to their quickness skills, especially warrior, and the engi’s grenade nerf, yours is trivial.

And again, I’m not telling him to stop complaining about dps, even though the builds you are describing are BURST builds and not meant for as high sustained dps, I’m telling him to stop complaining about your staying power.

Tell, me, when you run with other classes, who is most likely to die if you get overrun? Who is LEAST likely to die? What is the ONLY class that can zerg surf and live?

Thief is almost always one of the last to survive, staying power was extremely high before and still is.

I completely disagree. That “simple initiative bar” is shared between weapon set. Once you mismanage that, you’re SOL.

You don’t get it. One initiative bar is easier to manage than 10 weapon skills on 10 different cooldowns. Additionally thieves can see their initiative bar no matter what the set. Other classes can only see 5 out of 10 at any time. (in the case of Ele it is 20). Thieves have it better than other classes. Trust me.

A lot! You being a Guardian do not share the pain nor care about our pain, so you can say all you want but what you’re saying has no bearing in the Thief forum.

Again, I PvP consistently on thief, and it is my favorite class to PvP with. I still PvP with it on a regular basis despite this nerf.

You don’t even understand the fundamental problem.

you blow it out of proportion.

phor.7952:

When a change meant to nerf something considered to be overpowered in PvP instead nerfs an entire weapon set’s damage THAT drastically, you better bet people are going to come complain. The fact that you seem to think they shouldn’t boggles the mind.

If you look closely, I’m calling him out for complaining about the staying power in PVP and that alone. It was already extremely high, and it still is.

I already acknowledged that PvE thieves need a lot of work.

I can lay down a fire field and anyone with a jump finisher can get a fire aura.
Does this mean THEY depend on fire aura like you depend on stealth?

Irrelevant to the discussion. The discussion is on whether or not stealth is a cross class nerf. Did you know my guardian can get stealthed? Did you know that I get the revealed debuff for 4 seconds as well? Did you know that if I attack someone while I’m downed and my thief buddy drops a shadow refuge that I’ll have a 4 second revealed debuff meaning he can’t stealth me to rez?

Yeah.

And you’ve been CIVIL?
LAWL, I refer to you to your first post which you have deleted which I have quoted.
This is what you call Civil.

Yes, the first part of my post were three facts stated in the SotGs.

The second part of my post noted it was ironic he was telling other players they were QQing when in fact he was practicing what he preached against. The last paragraph told him the class isn’t exactly in a terrible position and called for him to stop complaining.

Very rude, I agree.

Im sorry if calling you out on your foul attitude hurts, the truth often does.

You’re the one who’s calling me a lout every post you make, multiple times, I’d say this might be an instance of the pot calling the kettle black.

Regardless,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Again you proven my point by bringing up RTL.
RTL works as a closer for many D/D elementalist, who quickly pop up electric shield, kd with a blowblack, switch to fire, put burn then turn to earth attunement and put down serious bleeds, cripple and KD

What I meant, the point that you seem to have missed, was that before the RTL nerf eles learned a rotation. After it they had to change and adapt.

It’s the exact same with the thief. Before the revealed nerf you had a 3 second rotation. Now you have a four second rotation. You seem to be upset that now you have to re-learn a rotation, yet eles had to do that as well.

You are the only class in the game that does not have to manage individual cooldowns, rather, one simple initiative bar. I’d say you have it better than you’re making it out to be.

Unless you’re another glass cannon build that relies on 30/30/x build you’re not going to be using your air attacks other than for an opener.

irrelevant.

Did I mention I too have a thief.
Who is 80 and geared.

That was pretty obvious. You seemed to have tried to say that because I play guardian as a main that I should say nothing.

Guess what? I play a thief. Guess what else? Even if I didn’t play one, I’d have to fight them from time to time. So, again, what does me being a guardian have to do with me being on these forums?

Notice how this stealth nerf isn’t being complained about in other classes forums?
Mhmm, stop being a foul mouth lout and think before you make an input.

notice how the omnom nerf wasn’t being complained about in the guardian section? That doesn’t mean it doesn’t affect guardians at all, it just means it doesn’t impact guardians nearly as much as it impacted warriors, who DID complain about it in their forums. It does NOT however change the fact that it was a cross class nerf, just like the stealth nerf is, that I’ll again point out was not in changes to thief but changes to general.

Did you know I can combo a smoke field provided by my neighborhood friendly engineer (and of course thief) and stealth my guardian as well? Trufax.

Also, I’ve been pretty civil, not sure where you’re getting “foul-mouth” from. seems kinda ironic given the last sentence in that particular quote, I’d say.

Do you wonder that?
because 4 seconds nerf means 1 extra second before PVE thieves can CnD and open another Backstab, it cuts their DPS and getting used to this new rotation of hitting CnD on Wild strike is annoying.

Boohoo, RTL same deal, eles used to have a 15 second rotation before they did RTL again, now they have to adapt.

I understand it cuts down PvE viability and this is a real issue, but the OP isn’t complaining about PvE. He’s complaining about other players in PvP “QQing” about thieves and getting them nerfed. He’s more specifically commenting on their staying power, which is enormously higher than most other classes to begin with. My thief is the ONLY class I can consistently go to sPvP with and not die a single time yet maintain a respectable place on the scoreboard.

Even with the 4 second reveal, it still is. And I do not chain C&D.

Human players like you, are hella squishy, all a PVP thief needs to do is hit you once with a cycle and you’re brown bread 4 seconds revealed debuff DOESNT MATTER TO THEM because youd be dead in 4 seconds.

lolwut? human players?

Also, good on you if you meant my class, I fully agree that 3.2k armor is squishy. I need at least 6k. Every thief i met has downed me in less than 4 seconds.

A lot of sarcasm, I should mention, went into the construction of my last paragraph

AI on the other hand arent they take ages to get killed, part of having a thief your party was for the burst damage they can put out until then D/D just has to keep backstabing

He’s complaining about staying power.

Also, mug is once every 45 seconds skill. CHILL, your dps went down a bit but backstab thieves aren’t meant for consistent dps anyways. You’re the king of burst. Besides, if reveal is every 4 seconds and you are doing backstab every 4 seconds instead of 3 now, why instead don’t you use that 1 second to make up part of that dps you lost.

You’re a guardian and YOU DONT CARE about the nerf.

Did I mention I have a thief?

If you immobilize an elementalist right as they are downed they can’t move in mist form. It also requires the ele not immediately going mistform (by that I mean 0 second delay)

It’s really hard to do but it’s possible.

Cross class stealth nerf?
You’ve officially no idea what you’re talking about

You do know this reveal nerf +1 second coming out of stealth VIA AN ATTACK Is an issue for thieves, tell me how mesmers or other classes are effected by this nerf?

If they attack from stealth, they get the 4 second revealed debuff. It’s really that simple.

Notice how the stealth nerf is in the “general” section and not the “thief” section? Mmhm. You saying only a thief ever attacks from stealth (which is untrue, as I attack from stealth whenever a thief shadow refuges me and get the 4 second revealed debuff)? cause mesmers do it too. and so does every class I have that ever gets invisibilitied ever.

Or are you saying that the 4 second revealed is only for thieves and mesmers and other classes only suffer from a 3 second reveal?

Im an ele and mine doesnt, I dont care about reveal being 4 seconds on me.

I’m a guardian and I dont care about the omnom nerf. That doesn’t mean it isn’t cross class nerf. It just impacted certain classes way harder than others.

I tried using venom share in spvp, to be honest I think that the range needs a buff because it’s hard to stop and type out “Get close to me so I can buff your next attack with an effect that stones your target so you can get free deeps on them”.

Really it is!

When it works though it’s awesome. Like, super awesome. You’re giving your allies basically either free damage on their opponent or you’re giving them the ability to bust a free stunbreaker/condition removal off their opponent.

You can still have very high dps with a 30/30/10 build :P. Because the 30% critical damage from valor is, well, like I mentioned, freakin’ awesome. In also happens to contain some of our best traits.

^Banner warrior is actually pretty powerful, now with the approximately 90% buff that the banners have received.

On the contrary! Bunker is extremely useful in WvW. Your aren’t just about healing, you are about giving boons to your party. Put 5 in virtues and equip the two support shouts. Maybe pick up a staff and/or a Mace and Shield. Those boons matter a lot more than you might think.

While you may not be doing damage, you’ll be giving your allies 12 stacks of might on a 2/3ds uptime (if you traited it). Constantly popping f1 which recharges really fast anyways will allow up to 25=30 seconds of burning, which is over 9k damage across 5 allies from a virtue that recharges pretty fast anyways. You could pick up battle presence as well and give a permanent regeneration effect that stacks with everything else in the game (except itself). F3 will give a well needed block and protection, one of the most important boons in wvw. Shield 4 gives more protection, as does the shout hold the line. Mace symbol will provide more healing, protector’s strike a period of invulnerability to your allies OR protection.

If you pick up 5 more opints in virtues for 10, you can trait one of the guardian’s best utilities for wvw. Wall of reflection.

Yes, a lot of people are still bad enough to fire into it :P. But it will protect your zerg from incoming projectiles on a 33% uptime. And unlike other utilities, this has NO TARGET LIMIT!! Isn’t that awesome?

Oh and I haven’t even mentioned the tomes yet :P

So yes, while you may not be doing damage, you can build your guardian to be an absolute game changer.

You don’t really need AH if your sustain is good enough as is. I personally find it extremely useful but only because I have invested heavily in the valor tree. I ran a power precision build similar to yours but gave it up because I wasn’t able to stay on the frontlines long enough.

Valor helps a lot with DPS, fyi. that 30% critical damage is for a lack of better words, kittening awesome.

I wouldnt call mesmers balancing issues nerfs.

In the same way i wouldn’t call the CROSS CLASS stealth “nerf” a nerf because hey, it’s just a balancing issue right?

Should I remind how Guardians received the retaliation “Balancing” issue? A lot of classes, again, have been consistently hit with the nerf bat. I’ll repeat it as many times as it takes to sink in.

Why, just last patch, Eles auras and ride the lightning. It completely broke DPS D/Ds. Guardian spirit weapons got hit earlier as well. A-net ruined a unique build with nothing to anticipate for it beforehand.

They were balanced down like the rest of us but still not down to our level enough.
I dont recall warriors getting hit with a significant nerf, neither do I recall eles getting hit with one,.

Warriors didn’t get hit by a direct nerf. However, they did get shafted by an indirect nerf. Quickness nerf. If you go to the spvp or warrior forums, you’ll see how utterly useless they are for spvp now (they were already the worst spvp class, now they’re even worse off)

If you think it’s not a nerf, I’ll point out that the stealth nerf applies to all classes as well, not just thieves. It just so happens that thieves use it most. Just like warriors use quickness the most.

In the same way Omnomberry Ghost/Pie nerfs have completely ruined the sustain of many warrior builds, despite being a cross class adjustment.

Retaliation the same ruined some retaliation builds as well, when the mechanics changed completely from 33% reflected damage to base damage.

If you don’t have anything of value to add to the issue other than “suck it up and stop whining” please keep your dissenting opinion to yourself, I’m not telling you this to be mean and make it look like I’m trying to shut you up, I’m telling you this so other people wont perceive you to be a huge opinionated lout that doesnt know what hes talking about.

So basically what you’re saying is I’m wrong because I disagree with you. Excellent reasoning.

For instance, which is the easier target, the Gaurdian who just joined the fight and popped “Save Yourselves!” or, that Longbow ranger who has just over-extended the battle-line and just blew endurance avoiding stray aoe’s?
.

Well…when I ran save yourselves ikittenerg I would always get high stacks and almost every condition in the game. Such people are extremely easy targets, more so than the ranger IMO <_<

Make venoms better and buff venomous aura range

I love having the ability to stone a boss. Personally it’s one of the coolest things in a dungeon I’ve ever seen.

I was playing on my spvp thief earlier and I noticed whenever I used black powder in conjunction with heartseeker, even if I accidentally hit my opponent I would still stealth and not get the revealed debuff.

Is this intentional?

Nope, it gets progressively harder to gain levels.

Yup, though it’s not as prevalent with me, I still crit on backstab like 9/10 times I try it with a 49% crit rate. Maybe I’m just lucky?

With the new patch notes, Quickness has taken a big nerf. 100% speed to 50% speed has justified the increase in duration of other profession haste skills like haste, frenzy, and quickening zephyr. I think it’s only fair to increase the duration of Guardian Tome of Wrath skill 4 from 3 seconds to 4 seconds of quickness.

I was thinking that one of the shield’s abilities should give aegis on demand.

Since you’re not doing a lot of damage and it’s more a defensive weapon, say:

Shield 3 – Grants aegis for 10 seconds. CD 15 seconds. (Which is on par with protector’s strike, except protector’s strike retaliates and gives protection if not procced. In exchange for the lack of such a utility on shield 3 you are permitted to do other things while having the free block)

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

common misconception is that warriors are front line damage soakers.
From my experience guardians and necros work way better as those who go gun ho into the middle of the zerg while warriors are better in the middle line who hammer smack the chilled targets.

It depends on the support the warrior is getting.

My guardian gives all my allies around me the EXACT same boons and protection from wall of reflection that I myself am getting. I also run battle presence (as do a lot of other guardians) so the warrior is getting a free regeneration stack on top of the actual regeneration boon, soothing mist, and other things.

Most warriors I run with don’t have problems surviving on the front lines. In fact they are the first ones in and are able to push right through.

Here’s how you get damage

G→W
U→A
A→R
R→R
D→I
I→O
A→R
N→!

In all seriousness it’s easy to rack up 3k+armor and still have acceptable crit % and crit damage (like say 40+and 60+ respectively). Give me fury (which I can apply through save yourselves) I can do up to 5-6k whirling wraths on less…armored individuals. If they stay in my large symbol of wrath my dps effectively doubles. Burning supplements this damage as does retaliation and the retal symbol. Additionally if you let GS 5 tick it can do respectable damage as well.

Other weapons do pretty good damage as well. Don’t understimate symbols + autoattacks.

Unfortunately Altruistic Healing is still our best grandmaster trait, I wouldn’t recommend switching that out just for the uniqueness feeling.

I mentioned veil. It’s the only invisibility skill that doesn’t have a cap of 5.

Guardian — Boons from shouts, consecrations that can turn the tables on entire battles around, enormous staying power especially with altruistic healing, best source of area stability in the game, and best source of light fields around that provide retaliation and condition removal. Wall of reflection is one of the most useful skills there are. Tomes that give massive buffs or massive amounts of healing, you name it. I’d say Guardian is top notch for large scale fights.

Elementalist – Amazing staying power, area auras that give boons to everyone, static fields that can stop a zerg charge in its tracks, area cleansing, water field, area healing, and the ability to give boons through an amazing amount of combo fields. Staff ele also has one of the best siege abilities in the game – meteor shower. D/D eles on the frontline are also very much desired.

Mesmer — Glamour build is amazing. Confusion is one of the most devastating conditions you can put on an enemy army. Every flamour field provides it. Feedback is a complete counter to projectiles just like Wall of Reflection. Null field rips boons and cures conditions, time warp literally increases the killing power of your friends by two times. Portals for extreme zerg mobility and veils for extreme zerg stealth. Ethereal fields give chaos armor, which is also…for a lack of better words, kittening awesome.

Warriors — Hear me out here:

Hammer chain CC earthshaker WRECKS enemy zergs. Greatsword kills downed enemies possibly faster than anything else in the game, and it is very important to kill downed enemies. “For great justice” is quite possibly the best offensive group utility buff in game. As long as they have defensive support from guardians and eles to keep them alive they are a scary thing to find in the enemy army because of their killing and crowd control abilities. Battle standard can insta revive keep/castle lords for defense, and banners provide the fastest blast finisher in the game apart from cluster bomb. (banner 5 cooldown is per player)

Those are the best classes for WvW large scale in my opinion.

Thieves and D/D eles are the best roamers. Warrior with good defensive support can murder entire parties in the blink of an eye.

Overall I would say Elementalists are the best class for World v World.

Kurow.6973:

Teamkiller.4315:

Kurow.6973:

Teamkiller.4315:

Stack stealth with smoke field and cluster bomb spam. Add shadow refuge for 12s more stealth.

You can stack up to half a minute of stealth lol.

Do you even know what you’re talking about?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combo

Since what I asked flew right over your head, let me rephrase: did you know there’s a cap on stealth duration?

25 seconds. Why?

Hey there, I main a guardian. I do have a level 2 mesmer I use for sPvP but that’s about it. However, my question to you is do you like fighting alongside guardians in a duo situation (where you are running with only 1 other person)?

Mesmer is one of my favorite classes to fight alongside because they can summon clones and I can proc far more altruistic healing when they summon their clones, not to mention when I apply things like area retaliation any aoe on us does massive damage back to the caster and when i activate my F1 all the clones phantasms attacking can stack something like 20-30 seconds of burning on a target. Additionally I usually facetank whatever we’re fighting so the clones do not die en route to the target to shatter, and the enemy is usually too focused on killing me to pay attention to the shatters or the phantasms destroying them.

The mesmer is also pretty easy to keep alive for me, since they’re a pretty slippery class and often their clones take aggro. They’re also one of the surest revives because they are guaranteed to stop the first stomp. As for when I go down, I can’t tell you how many times their greatsword 5 or feedback has saved me from certain doom.

Nerf will make thieves less survivable.

Apart from that, nothing really will happen, since it will only affect you if you don’t attack. If you do attack, well, there’s already the 3 second revealed debuff. Basically now if you screw up, you’re in a whole lot more trouble than you would have been in before.

I imagine the debuff was to stop chain veils for zergs as well.

You can do a number of things to speed up your stomp.

1) interrupt the reviver. But of course, your build doesn’t exactly allow for that. Don’t see a problem with it.

2) kill the reviver. Again, your build is attrition, not burst. The way you built your character doesn’t allow for that.

3) Poison the downed person. He’ll be revived far slower. AGAIN, your build doesn’t incorporate something like that. Don’t see a problem

4) AOE. Once again, your build only has caltrops, and nothing else for that. Don’t see a problem

5) Haste stomp. Once AGAIN, your build doesn’t have that.

6) Hope they’re bad players and they do not watch each other’s health bars and do not revive in time. Oh wait, you weren’t playing against bad players? Right, so why do you think you deserve to win a 1v2?

Guild wars designed thief to be potent in 1v1 situations, that is their class philosophy, but to be equally potent against higher numbers would seriously unbalance the game, hence the downed system. You want your single target attacks to work and kill multiple people…I disagree.

I think the downed system has its own problems but this complaint is kind of silly. I rarely ever have problems killing downed people in fights. (speaking from the point of view of someone who has played 6/8 classes, including thief). If you doubt my word, just go watch Yishis’ youtube videos; he frequently wins 1vX’s, and doesn’t have a terrible time spiking people either. Incidentally the most potent sort of revive is a thief shadow refuging his teammate, disallowing you to stomp him at all for 12 seconds (unless he attacks) While the thief can revive his teammate. You would have to nerf downed state to absolute hell in order to prevent that sort of thing from occuring.

There’s also something called the downed penalty. If you down him in succession quick enough, he will have less health the next time someone tries to revive him, and it likely won’t be fast enough.

Karolis.4261:

Stealth does not mitigate damage. Just saying.

Stability doesn’t either.

Mistform and elixir S do, but their cooldowns are 5-6 times longer than that of C&D on a downed opponent.

Don’t think so. Thieves have a natural advantage in the open field with their escape mechanics. You have stealth stomp. Don’t need another advantage like that.

Yes, other classes have stability stomp, mistform stomp, elixir S stomp, but the difference is C&D stealth on downed guy gives you a stealth stomp on an effective 7.5 second cooldown at the LONGEST. Those utilities have far lengthier cooldowns and are a utility slot wasted.

Furthermore there’s no way to ensure a stomp on a thief unless you have a teleport skill that does not interrupt channeling. These are present in half the classes but they have lengthy cooldowns. Also there’s no way to ensure a stomp on a mesmer period, and it is extremely difficult to ensure a stomp on an ele.

Apart from daggerstorm, thieves also have no form of stability. That is fair, because they have stealth, therefore their trade off is no other way of mitigating damage.

Brassnautilus.2941:

so many bads, target other thieves lol.
Among all the mirror fights, thieves produce most draws. Never target a thief.

at the present, all necros and warriors are sure kills, tanky mesmer easy, dps mesmer more of a gamble if time was limited.
glass guardian, unless very very good, will take no more than 30sec, next to that bow rangers and condi engi. Ele with staff aren’t often seen in tourneys, but if you find one, merry Christmas to you then.

d/d or s/d ele with 0/10/0/30/30 and gs evade rangers are draws. bunker engi can’t be brought down without stuns, and bunker guardians will take a while. These draw fights should be avoided unless absolutely necessary or you get to double.

Well this would depend on your BUILD wouldn’t it?!?

I assume you’re talking about D/D thief. In that case, thief vs thief do not produce lots of draws. It ends really fast because they are both squishy and both do a ton of damage, the only thing separating them from death is their stealth. So whoever’s stealth wears off first is usually the first to go.

And it happens VERY often. I’ve seen it firsthand.

I have no clue what you say about necros being sure kills. They’re definitely more difficult than most of the other classes you listed.

Warriors are again, not sure kills but gambles. They output a ton of damage and can easily one shot a thief with axe f1. Not to mention their wide array of stuns.

No clue about thief vs mesmer.

Glass guardian will take shorter than 30 seconds, most likely. They share the same base health as the thief, so if they’re glass, they’re going down to one combo. Proper bunker guardians are, as you mentioned, unkillable 1v1.

Trap rangers counter thieves.

D/D eles give thieves a lot of trouble as well. Even bunker eles can dish out a crapton of damage.

If you are an uplevel, don’t go solo.

Most solo roamers are built specifically for duels/small scale so they are going to absolutely destroy you in not only experience, skill, and build advantage, but also the fact that you are upleveled and they are not.

Uplevels have a massive disadvantage. It’s easy enough to kill a lv 80 glass thief with 10.8k health, if you run at lv 30 without all your utilities and half the glass thief’s armor you are going to go down to about 3 autoattacks from anyone who isn’t built completely bunker.

You will be one-shotted by a lot of people built for dps. Fire grab, for instance, from even a bunker elementalist, has the potential to one shot you.

What I would recommend is getting to level thirty and just opening with daggerstorm. After it’s done get to the mid/back lines and start shortbow trick shot spam.

ensoriki.5789:

I see no issue with 2 or 3.
You get caught, you use what you have to repair the situation.
I do find Death Blossom an oddity but I’m not feeling your suggestion.

Exactly

To the OP, number

2) Seriously, in the scenario you just presented you are eating the most damaging skill in the game after knockdown or stun (wars built for hundred blades will have an effective 100% critical chance against stunned foes, meaning you eat the FULL hundred blades with ALL the crit damage) and you think there’s a more dire situation than that to use shadowstep? Or even death blossom (which is a weapon skill, i might add, not a utility on a long kitten cooldown)?

Color me surprised.

I was playing Dark Souls earlier and I discovered I could equip a shield in my main hand. I then thought about my guardian in gw2.

Wouldn’t it be interesting if you could equip a shield main hand? At the cost of nearly all your dps, you would have substantially higher defense and support. At the moment guardians dont have access to any dual wield, while most of the other classes do.

Fiery greatsword is amazing.

I always pick it up when an ele drops it. It actually conjures two swords, one for the ele and one for an ally to pick up.

Amazing damage and utility to be completely honest.

I am very very glad to see so many people even in T8. It shows me WvW is still going alive and strong

If the guardian wants to run as a pseudo cleric usually ~1000 or more is acceptable. If you’re going hybrid with dps your amount is perfectly fine, just I personally wouldn’t use the mace as it benefits most from really high healing power (since Mace/Focus will be focusing mainly on regeneration as healing)