Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

It all starts with your definition of grind. The grind in this game is comparable, to me, to the grind in Guild Wars 2.

Indeed. And this topic has proved that your definition of grind (and that you claimed was ArenaNet’s definition) was wrong; it’s not ArenaNet’s definition of grind. From which we see that your interpretation of the Manifesto was wrong as well (see my signature for details). Thus, if that’s how the discussion starts, and in that you were wrong, well…

ColinJohanson.2394:

Yeah to be clear on that one, as we’ve said before: we made that statement before the game launched, ultimately realized we didn’t think it was the right decision for Gw2 – and changed our mind. I fully own making this statement, the day I said it was our plan – our lead designer decided it was the wrong direction for the game after we stated it, and we changed direction.

Colin, now that HoT is out in the open, could we get some news on some of the most notorious designers from which we have heard next to nothing? What have Eric Flannum, Linsey Murdock, John Stumme and the other designers we heard a lot about been up to?

lordkrall.7241:

You can buy every single trait in the game at your profession trainer.

Thankfully the devs didn’t accept excuses to keep the trait unlocks as they are, and chose instead to actually listen to their players. If only the players themselves could do the same

Vayne.8563:

Indeed. By never using the words “grind” and “level” close to each other, ArenaNet has made it clear that they have never considered “grind” to mean only level grinding. In fact, their statements about not wanting people to grind show how they see grind as something far more encompassing.

If people refuse to accept that, it’s their own issue

English much? By using them close together they imply that that is what I’m talking about.

See Vayne? It was never about level grind only. That definition of grind isn’t really used anywhere at all.

Ronin.7381:

City of Heroes was also shut down based on a business decision, not that it was actually losing money. Were one to go look at quarterly reports of NCSoft, after CoH:Freedom, they were generating a substantial amount of money. I’d almost wager it was comparative to TOR, who mind you – was ranked 3rd on the MMO board of 2014.

So, you mean that NCSoft is willing to shut down MMORPGs even when they’re still generating a “substantial amount of money”?

Considering how NCSoft owns ArenaNet, the GW2 devs would definitely be panicking if that’s true.

Vayne.8563:

As I said, not once, but many times across many threads, if a word has multiple definitions, it’s up to people to define what they mean by it. Anet did that, not once, but many times.

If people refuse to accept that, it’s their own issue.

Indeed. By never using the words “grind” and “level” close to each other, ArenaNet has made it clear that they have never considered “grind” to mean only level grinding. In fact, their statements about not wanting people to grind show how they see grind as something far more encompassing.

If people refuse to accept that, it’s their own issue

rhapsody.3615:

That’s only a piece of what I said. If you read the rest of my post, you would see that getting top tier gear isn’t the same. Sorry, I’m not letting you make me look like an idiot. In GW2, yes, you play a dungeon a few times to acquire a piece of equipment. That piece of equipment (speaking in exotics, not ascended) has all max stats the moment it is obtained, minus your choice of rune.

So not only it does not have maxed stats (it’s not ascended), but also it requires an upgrade (the runes) in order to become as powerful as it can be.

Just like the game you mentioned. It’s the same (grindy) thing.

Serophous.9085:

And there’s the problem. Some players feel the NEED to get that optional stuff, so they call it a grind, when really, they are just farming. You actually don’t NEED anything in the silverwastes. You don’t NEED anything in dry top. But because it feels like something you NEED, its thought of as a grind, when really its a farm

You don’t NEED to play the game. “NEED” is rather irrelevant in this context. The reward system has been created in such a way that it rewards grind and basically only grind… And it appears that ArenaNet does not want players to grind, as they have said before and have repeated now.

Well, looks like they have failed to achieve that goal.

lordkrall.7241:

I would say that Orr, Southsun Cove, Dry Top and Silverwastes are quite different from what you are describing there.

Orr and Southsun Cove are exactly what he described, only worse. Southsun Cove was so poorly implemented that, even after being reworked, it’s best avoided.

Sylent.3165:

will it be like gw1?

No. It will be less, of course. That’s the pattern ArenaNet has followed since the release of GW2.

Danikat.8537:

Which is already in the game and therefore nothing to do with the expansion.

Do you think you won’t have to play the game to play the expansion?

mako.2431:

I fear with this new progression players like me are going to be screwed.

You will be screwed by the trait unlocking system, since any new character you make will have to grind in order to get traits.

HenleyLegoMan.4987:

A valid question I feel. What do you all think?

LOL.

The reason why precursors and Legendaries are in the game is because ArenaNet wants players to grind (regardless of the entire “no grind philosophy” speech).

If the Legendaries themselves are not account bound (and their stats-changing propery isn’t), what makes you think that the precursors could possibly ever be account bound?

Derigar.7810:

I really recommend you fix this “mess” you created.

It was changed on April of 2014. Since then, a lot of people have been complaining about this. ArenaNet has not listened for the past 9 months, it’s very unlikely they will listen now.

For the records, this was one more change made to appeal to the Chinese. And even then, the China release underperformed. I wonder why.

Terrahero.9358:

If the new GM traits and Healing skills are any indication I wouldn’t worry. The healing skills are generally ignored cause they suck and the GM traits are highly gimmicky. I have not a single character with all the 5 “new” GM traits unlocked.

So you are assuming the new skills and new mechanics to be introduced in HoT will be a failure like the healing skills, and just be ignored by everyone because they suck?

Well, that’s a way to be optimistic.

rhapsody.3615:

In the last game I played, I’d have to play a dungeon a few times to buy one armor piece.

Have you ever acquired a dungeon armor piece in GW2? You need to play a dungeon a few times to buy one piece as well. Same thing.

Blackbeard.4356:

1) All the things we’re getting in new expansion ( mastery system, specialization ) are they bound to the new Maguuma map or they’re viable all over the world ? example ~ If hunter becomes Druid, is he druid always or only in Maguuma map ? Same question goes for other things in brackets above.

Masteries probably restricted. Specializations and the new profession, no.

Blackbeard.4356:

2) How did you imagine your play time in PvE with new expansion ? We’ll get new map where all new content will be and people will enjoy farming there etc. What’s with the rest of the world ? Like every new patch when comes, all people gather on one place and rest of the world is becoming desert again.

A small army of players will make a new character with the new profession, so expect the 20-79 areas to have some people. Expect the usual farming areas to still have people playing them. The rest of the world will likely be empty.

Blackbeard.4356:

3) There haven’t been said anything about the new dungeons and that type of content which is bad but oke (it’s my opinion ). So I’m wondering how it’s suppose to work ? Farming new map for a month, then get back to open world and start farming world bosses, speed farm dungeons, do fractals (-.-) etc.

Yep. Once everyone is level 80, people will figure out what is the best place to farm, flock there and leave everything else empty.

evilunderling.9265:

If I had to guess:

• A microtransaction game is at its healthiest when paying and non-paying players can mingle together. From this, it follows that there will be some sort of ‘access programme’ for the new content for non-expansion players, which could be anything from taxiing to coin subs or a non-atomic purchase option.

GW2 is not only microtransaction based; it’s also buy to play. Which is why we won’t have the expansion features sold piecemeal at the Gem Store. In B2P games, the more you make the players without the newest purchase feel left behind, the better – because they will feel pressured to buy the new content, without you actually forcing them to do so.

Cameirus.8407:

The kittenty “unlock” system still in the game for traits?

It will be lovely to see what happens when a small army of GW2 players tries the new profession… Only to be sucker punched by the trait unlock system.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

And that’s what MMO devs want, to keep you playing. So yea, it is possible, they just won’t do it.

Which, ironically, came from the days of P2P games. Without that model, having players coming and going as new (paid) content is released could work. But developers are too used to the old mentality, and grind is just too easy to make, that grind is what we get.

Sir Alric.5078:

We know that with HoT we will get new areas to explore (the whole of Maguuma Jungles, as i understood it), but i’m wondering if the Devs will also use the expansion as a chance to update the old maps in order to reflect the current state the continent of Tyria is in.

Nope.

Big budget games like WoW can do that (see how they changed the original zones through one of their expansions, and the changes were for everyone, regardless if they had bought the expansion or not).

ArenaNet is far from having all those resources.

masterJP.5048:

No grinding to have BIS gear

BIS gear = Ascended.

Ascended = grindy as hell.

Ergo…

nGumball.1283:

If Anet is in panic then most MMOs in the industry should have already been closed by this point.

Let’s see which MMOs have been shut down?

City of Heroes? Check.

Warhammer Online? Check.

Vanguard: Saga of Heroes? Check.

Spellborn? Check.

Fury? Check.

Tabula Rasa? Check.

Hellgate? Check.

Star Wars Galaxy? Check.

Earth & Beyond? Check.

…Among others. Not to mention the half dead P2P games that went F2P and now lack any kind of support.

Do you really believe the MMORPG industry is expanding right now? Wasn’t the poor performance of nearly every MMORPG released recently enough to show that maybe the genre isn’t exactly doing well?

Here we have a full transcript of yesterday’s presentation (thanks to the guy who wrote all that down).

Interestingly, twice Colin mentions “our no-grind philosophy for Guild Wars 2”.

It appears ArenaNet really believes their own Manifesto, when the same Colin said, “We don’t want players to grind”.

We just need to let them know that, between Ascended items and slow dungeon rewards and Legendaries and the new level-based unlocks and the new trait system unlock and etc etc, well… Their “no-grind philosophy” has been extremely grindy.

Walhalla.5473:

What Panic Mode? Anet is not on Panic Mode, what are you taliking about?

Losing players, China release underperfoming, hence the need to make money quickly. Why do you think they went from “we don’t want an expansion, we can release everything through the Living World” to “here’s your expansion!!!”?

lordkrall.7241:

That is of course only the case if the new profession is broken and thus much stronger than everyone else.

And the new skills are overpowered. And of course all of that will be true – they won’t be balanced, because ArenaNet is not going to be able to balance everything (if they can’t even balance the current skills, they won’t manage to do it with even more options on the table). So they will add overpowered features to make the players left behind literally left behind from other players.

That’s a nice way to combine peer pressure with desperation.

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

People who do A are not doing B and they do not have to pull manpower from A to work on B

Hah. Do you really think ArenaNet is currently not on Panic Mode, trying desperately to get the entire studio* to work on the expansion, so it actually sells well and offsets their recent losses?

*"entire studio" sans the team working on the Gem Store items, of course. Those are the absolute priority, always.

Goatjugsoup.8637:

so we are getting a new profession, will we get a new character slot so we can try it out?

Sure…

…As long as you buy one.

ArenaNet says “Thank$$$$!”

Chobiko.9182:

So, an Expansion (optional, purchasable) is coming. There will be ppl playing it, there might be people who don’t.

And ArenaNet wants people to feel pressured to buy it. Ergo, expect the new skills and the new profession to be available only to those who buy the expansion, and to be useable everywhere in the game (all dungeons, WvW, PvP, etc).

So either you buy the expansion, or you won’t be able to join PUGs, you will lose in PvP, and you won’t won in WvW unless you have a considerably larger zerg than the other team.

Lishtenbird.2814:

I hope that ANet won’t descend to the tactics of “buy or be left behind”

That’s exactly what they will do. If you don’t buy the expansion, be ready to never again join a PUG in PvE and be forever behind in PvP.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

Not making enough money from the gem store I guess.

Yes.

The entire goal behind the expansion is to make players feel like they have to buy it. Expected overpowered skills and an overpowered profession, plus other increases in power that turn make those without HoT into second rate citzens. Good luck getting into groups in PvE or winning anything in PvP.

Galen Grey.4709:

Living story has always been less then 20 people working on it and Anet since launch had more then 350 people working on the game. They may have originally planned to release everything through LS sure but regardless they’ve been working on this content since day 1.

Yeah… No. The Living World did not begin on day 1. They still had to work on fixing bugs, adding the remaining polish that wasn’t there on release, making Fractals of the Mists, and so on. Not to mention how the “20 people” team thing is ignoring those who were working on the microtransactions all this time.

“Day 1”? Without knowing when is the release day of HoT and how polished it will be, it’s hard to guess. But they are likely working on it for less than one year.

CalamityO.2890:

Show me where you said that they are working on an expansion.

They are working on an expansion See, and I’m right too!

rapthorne.7345:

The casual nature of GW2 was never going to appeal to the eastern MMO grindfest crowd, and I’m sure that ANet expected that.

You do realize that ArenaNet stopped working temporarily on improvements for us due to the release on China, right? They said as much last year.

Meanwhile, we have the NCSoft report stating that the China released was weaker than they expected. So no, ArenaNet wasn’t expecting GW2 to not appeal to a grindbased market. I wonder why.

So, I heard you like kittens? You have a bunch of those, it seems

Moskibear.3482:

Is Arenanet planning to look into this, or are they launching all these new things without any considerable changes to what we already have?

If, with the current options, the game isn’t balanced, what makes you think that by adding even more options ArenaNet will be able to balance it at all?

All the issues you mentioned will likely become worse once the expansion hits. Everyone and their mothers will play as a Revenant at first, it will likely be overpowered (so people have more of an incentive to buy the expansion), and soon people will settle down on a new meta. Still fueled by berseker only, of course.

Let’s see…

“We will redo the trait system, so players unlock traits through exciting content in the world!”

…And we got a lot of grind that punishes people with multiple characters. This will likely be a pain for those who make a Revenant.

“We will rework the progression system so it’s more pleasant for new players!”

…And they basically removed one of the most unique aspects of GW2, earning new skills by using a weapon, and turned it into a very slow level grind. Many kinds of progression were also level locked.

“We will deliver exciting content for free!”

…And we got Scarlet.

ArenaNet loves to show some incredibly exciting idea… And fail completely at the execution. I would rather wait until I see exactly what the HoT execution is before I pay for it.

nGumball.1283:

People said that WoW would die and Blizzard was desperate. Do you know when? It was 10-9 years ago.

Good luck with your wait, you have a long period ahead of you.

People said City of Heroes would die and Cryptic Studios was desperate. Do you know what happened next?

People said Vanguard: Saga of Heroes would die. Guess what happened?

People said Warhammer Online would die. Well…

People “who actually know what they’re saying” know that WoW is an exception, not the rule.

Chuck.8196:

I don’t mind buying it but what happened to Living World updates to bringing the content?

The Living World was a failure. It did not keep enough people playing to be profitable for ArenaNet/NCSoft. Hence the need to try to make money in some other way. An expansion is likely one of the last options they have.

DarkSyze.8627:

Guild War 1 release date- April 28, 2005
New Expansion; Eye of North release date- August 31, 2007

Compare

Guild Wars 2 release date- August 28, 2012
New Expansion- Heart of Thorns release date- soon announce- 2015

Uh… Between the original Guild Wars and Eye of the North, ArenaNet released two entire chapters, stand-alone games that had more or less 300 skills each, with than 40 new maps in each chapter, 2 new professions per chapter, and so on.

The current rate of content production is a joke. That, without even considering how likely it is that the incoming expansion may as well be a rushed piece of trash.

Utomneian.9013:

this could mean that their Living World experiment failed or didn’t keep the game going the way they wanted

Yep.

Stopped working on the game in order to prep it for China release = China release was a failure.

Living World was meant as a way to add content that people usually see in expansions = players kept leaving and profits were falling.

So, the last, desperate answer? Try to make players come back with an expansion.

This one will make or break ArenaNet. If the expansion is bad – if ArenaNet has a lot of great ideas but a very flawed execution (which is what they do most of the time), well… I remember a game called City of Heroes.

Lyanna.9875:

3) On Dulfy it is said that it will be playable in 6 weeks at PAX East… So we can expect it to drop on August like the main game? Before or after? :p There will be available a pre-purchase like the one we had for the main game? :p i had to try and ask these questions XD

Guild Wars 2 had a playable demo in GamesCom 2010. It was released two years later, in 2012.

So, the fact we will have a playable demo in 6 weeks means your release window is anything from 6 weeks plus one day to two years

CalamityO.2890:

Sounds like an excuse for being wrong.

Sure. Just show me where have I said that there would not be an expansion.

Have you noticed how often MMORPGs that are falling try to use an expansion as their last hope? I’m far from being surprised to see a GW2 expansion. It’s just interesting to acknowledge how ArenaNet itself noticed their “lovely” Living World simply didn’t cut it.

Coffaro.9214:

Man come on……… Im so disappointed.

ArenaNet will NEVER add a new race. Blame their lack of long term planning and how poorly they made the story.

Each race has its own voice actor. If they were to add a new race, how would a player go through the current game with characters from those new races? Per ArenaNet’s own rules, they would have to record again the dialogue of the ENTIRE storyline using the new voice actors. They have no money for this. So no, no new race.

Ashen.2907:

An expansion of this sort seems likely to have required anywhere from a year to two years to develop.

Heh. You are assuming it will be released any time soon. Guild Wars 2 had a playable demo on 2010 yet was only released on 2012, so the fact that we will see a playable demo at PAX is far from being a sign that the expansion will be released in a couple months.

Besides, you are also assuming it won’t all be poorly done and hushed content. The kind of thing they could have done in six months, after watching the poor China sales and the lack of player retention in the Living World.

Taygus.4571:

china failure?

Per the NCSoft quarterly report, the sales in China have been less than they expected. Together with the continuous loss in profit, and the inclusion of strategies that free to play games employ to keep players logging in no matter what (such as the reward system for merely logging in the game), it’s easy to see that ArenaNet is becoming desperate.

It’s little suprise to see an expansion. It’s probably ArenaNet’s last bet. It’s still worth noticing, though, that we are getting this now because the other strategies have failed.

“We won’t have an expansion because we can add everything through the Living Story”

Well, clearly they couldn’t.

The fact ArenaNet is making an expansion is the best proof of how flawed the Living Story concept was. The “novel” way of adding content to a MMORPG has been forced to give place to the good, old expansion system.

ArenaNet better hope it’s not too little, too late. After the failure in China, they cannot afford to fail, again.

joanisa.5768:

Is gw2 trying to loose players?

YEP. Because the players are WAY too TIGHT. Get IT? :DDDDDDD

tigirius.9014:

I too find it amusing how somehow farmers have been made to be the badguys

Because THIS…

tigirius.9014:

it costs thousands of gold to buy a single legendary or 500 gold for a skin

…Is the FARMERS’ fault. The farmers’ and the TP PLAYERS. Without EITHER of those, NO ONE would have THOUSANDS of gold, ergo NOTHING would be so EXPENSIVE.

If GW2 had NO farmers, the game would be MUCH, MUCH better for everyone ELSE.

Otokomae.9356:

Seriously though, whatever happened to Devon Carver? We haven’t heard from him since the April 15 Balance Patch, have we?

He got promoted. After his crushing sucesss in WvW, he’s now the leader of the entire competitive play department, which includes sPvP, WvW and skill balance.

And yep, that’s no joke.

Tommyknocker.6089:

Wasn’t there suppose to be a CDI this week?

Guess that’s on hold along with our mist forged weapons.

It’s more likely it’s on HOLD together with the NEW roles for WvW, the buffs to HOLDING an objective, and all the OTHER fake PROMISES we have been given.

HyruleanHyroe.1473:

As long as they keep the updates flowing and don’t sacrifice forward movement for permanence.

OPEN world CONTENT is going to take a HUGE hit. Expect LESS things like the MARIONETTE encounter, and more like the personal storyline-like instanced content that NO ONE even REMEMBERS.

Not to mention how, IRONICALLY, they’re killing the concept of a LIVING world. If the changes to the OPEN world won’t disappear, what’s the POINT in having a STORYLINE? Imagine how it would be if players defeated SCARLET but her ARMIES never stopped INVADING a given map? Or if she NEVER stopped appearing in the MARIONETTE content even after we had DEFEATED her?

ArenaNet DOESN’T know how to AVOID extremes. Having the ENTIRE season 1 based around TEMPORARY content was Bad. Having the ENTIRE season 2 based around PERMANENT content is BAD, too.