- If you stay in it for 7s there is no CD? Have you ever played a Necromancer? Just for curiosity.
He’s probably talking about a bug: if your DS ends because it reached 0% LF, the cooldown begins not from the moment DS ended, but from the moment you entered DS in the first place.
The guardian has a LOT more sustain due to blocks, heals, regeneration, etc.
Necromancers are complaining? really? wow.
Necromancer needs perma stealth, real stability, real Swiftness, real heals and real escape skills.
Thank you for reading the thread. Or at least the opening post. Your contributions to the topic at hand are constructive and welcome.
….looks like I have to use weapons of math instruction…
Oh well.
Practical tools:
Necromancer in basic armor, no relevant runes, with a stat comparison between Toughness, Vitality and Health while using Rabid, Carrion, Soldier, Knight and Shaman amulets, no trait lines at all.
Theoretical tools: Attacker with a 1000 damage weapon with Power stat equal to lowest Armor (1836) for simplicity, attacking using a 1.0 ratio skill every 1.0 seconds.
All numbers rounded to nearest integer.
Case #1 – Brainded player with no bonus Vitality or Toughness
Total Armor: 1836
Total Health: 18372
Total Damage: 1000 damage every second. Time to kill: 18 seconds.
Case #2 – Rabid amulet
Total Armor: 2480
Total Health: 18372
Total Damage: 740 damage every second. Time to kill: 24 seconds.
Case #3 – Carrion amulet
Total Armor: 1836
Total Health: 24812
Total Damage: 1000 damage every second. Time to kill: 24 seconds.
Case #4 – Soldier Amulet
Total Armor: 2480
Total Health: 24812
Total Damage: 740 damage every second. Time to kill: 33 seconds.
Case #5 – Shaman Amulet
Total Armor: 2759
Total Health: 18372
Total Damage: 666 damage every second. Time to kill: 27 seconds.
Case #6 – Knight Amulet
Total Armor: 1836
Total Health: 27602
Total Damage: 1000 damage every second. Time to kill: 27 seconds.
From these simple tests, we can conclude that… on the necromancer, it is a toss-up. The necromancer already starts with the ideal health:toughness ratio, and buying any stat in the same amounts increases his staying power in exactly the same way….
HOWEVER, let’s muddy up the waters a bit. Enter the dash a cases! For these, we will be using one heal and a full, unmodified Life Force bar of 60% life, no traits. The heal used will be Consume Conditions, because it is significantly easier to calculate that one flat burst than the regenerating effects of the other heals. Regardless of the TTK, only one heal and one Death Shroud will be used for these. With no healing power and no conditions, Consume Conditions heals for 5240, and will be used only after five seconds of combat, after the necro has taken 6000 damage. Since I do not want to get logarithmic here, and simulating degeneration normally is bothersome, I’ll just ignore it for now. It is a non-issue, since we have previously demonstrated that both toughness and vitality are equally effective at increasing life expectancy against power damage, the expectation is that in all toughness-or-vitality cases, the DS duration will be the same.
Case 1-a – Somewhat less stupid necro
Total Armor: 1836
Optimally Expanded Health: 34635
Total Damage: 1000 damage every second. Time to kill: 34 seconds.
Case 2-a – Rabid expanded
Total Armor: 2480
Optimally Expanded Health: 34635
Total Damage: 740 damage every second. Time to kill: 46 seconds.
Case 3-a – Carrion expanded
Total Armor: 1836
Optimally Expanded Health: 44939
Total Damage: 1000 damage every second. Time to kill: 44 seconds.
Case 4-a – Soldier Expanded
Total Armor: 2480
Total Health: 44939
Total Damage: 740 damage every second. Time to kill: 60 seconds.
Case 5-a – Shaman Amulet
Total Armor: 2759
Total Health: 34635
Total Damage: 666 damage every second. Time to kill: 51 seconds.
Case 6-a – Knight Expanded
Total Armor: 1836
Total Health: 49403
Total Damage: 1000 damage every second. Time to kill: 49 seconds.
Death Shroud is irrelevant as an argument, the interaction with power damage is exactly the same as normal health, and it doesn’t take a genious to figure out that percentile generation works effectively identically in both cases.
Without heals, toughness wins by a small margin, and the difference is less than a single hit with the theoretical attacker. However, the more heals there are, the more effective toughness becomes. Similarly, the more conditions there are, the more effective vitality becomes. As necromancers, we have fairly mediocre heals, but we eat conditions for breakfast, so I’ll let you gather your own conclusions.
(edited by The Boz.2038)
All that needs to happen is:
Terror is fed by Power, not Condition Damage. Is moved into Grandmaster Spite.
Dhuumfire is becomes Torment, 3s on crit, 1s ICD. Is moved into Master Curses.
There, job’s done.
How has no one realized necro has some of the best healing in the game with great damage.
I have no words.
Tell me, is your necromancer experience measured in minutes, or seconds? Because you can’t have hours and think that is a good build… Just can’t.
I always try to pick stuff apart, it’s how I make my own builds.
OK, so…
27812 HP is one of the 569 Vitality amulets + 30 points into Blood Magic. How do you get both Foot in the Grave and Spectral Attunement with 40 points remaining?
Ghastly claws hits eight times. Each hit gives you 1.5% LF. Pray the enemy doesn’t interrupt you with a stun, daze, immobilize, or that he doesn’t dodge, evade, block, etc. A single barrel roll cuts that skill’s number of hits in half. Using it on an NPC instead of the enemy player doesn’t really buy you a lot of time as you’re not creating any extra pressure.
Thanks for the feedback!
The axe+horn is almost strictly for the finisher, forgot to write that in. And yes, “Protect Me” is a panic button only. However, I will try the build with some cats, see what kind of damage I get from that.
Also, I really, really, really hate the sword autoattack root-leap thing. I don’t think I’ll ever use that weapon again until they change that.
What a wonderful, constructive post, Romek!
Necros have Spectral armor which can last 8 secs=over 75% life force on a 48 sec cd and a 2nd spectral armor at 50% hp. When this is paired with 25k hp and 30% larger life force pool thats 57.5k hp.
This entire post is filled with bad math and bad information.
First off, 8 seconds of 8% per hit with a 1s ICD is 72% LF gain IN AN IDEAL CASE. Note: the ideal case is mathematically impossible to attain, as you’d have to take damage at precisely 0.00s after activating the skill, and again exactly one second later. And then again, and again, etc. You’re realistically looking at 48 to 56 if you’re being constantly attacked.
Secondly, 25k HP with a 30% LF boost is a 19.5k DS HP, as base DS is 60% of your normal HP, as confirmed by the devs recently.
With all the life force gains its very easy to go 0-100% life force. Ghastly claws 12% 6 sec cd, reapers touch 15% 14 sec cd. Spectal walk 24% life force 48sec cd. spectral wall 38sec cd=2 protection boons. Life transfer is 3% life force which is great for aoe when hitting many targets.
And here we’re talking an uninterrupted 2+s channel, a skill hitting five targets, yet another theoretically ideal case of hit rate, and another case of “you can totally tank five people, no problem.”
3 stun breakers and all the life force heals you can easily use;
Consume conditions 25 sec cd 5.3k heal with 0 healing power and 735 hp per condition and having 12 conditions in the game=8.8k which Im pretty sure that 14.1k is the biggest heal in the game with 0 healing power
…and yet another ideal case.
Really is surprising that necros dont know theyr class, it really is… you can have 5 wells 6 if you revive an ally… so much for 1 skill isnt it.
How the hell do you get six wells with three utility skills, a heal skill, and an elite that doesn’t have a well?
And how the hell is that all 1 skill?
And is that necro who is packing six wells also packing spectral walk, wall, and armor as well?
Hopefully solo Q feels more like RA from gw1.
Oh, god, please, not this. Anything but this. I want games to not be decided before they start. “Oh, they have a monk/ritualist. We don’t. Oh well…”
I’ve been running this build without much trouble in PvE. What are your own thoughts on it?
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQNBhOD7koiugzCyvCWLDINFailwUwfFi7xo4JhYK36Kr1C-jwyAYrkROgJKAkGMaDEFCJ5VEN2OQR0Y1LYqSioavRR0qBA-e
Now, before we begin, a word on “Guard”. This skill is stupid. Really. The build uses it only for triggering permanent regeneration and near-permanent swiftness. It provides two bonuses for the pet: stealth and protection. These two have absolutely no synergy between them. Why are they here? I don’t know. Also, for some inexplicable reason, the skill is an area-targeted shout. Yes, it makes no sense. Yes, it’s clunky as hell to use. And finally, the skill roots the pet for three minutes, during which the pet becomes an aggromonsterfiendhoundthing that attacks everything within 2000 or so units. Thanks to the regen, you can survive it in PvE, no problem, unless you aggro something ridiculous like a Veteran Risen Abomination. I can not even begin to explain how tedious pet management becomes with this skill used frequently.
But hey, it works, so…
Advantages: This is a full berzerker build with an insane amount of survivability. Endurance regen, vigor, greatsword autoevade, block, daze, regeneration, protection, two stun breakers, 20k health, 2200 armor, etc. You are really, REALLY hard to kill, especially for a zerker. Also, you move fast, if you want to bother with it.
Disadvantages: You are a ranger. Your damage in melee is nowhere near the damage of a warrior, guardian, etc. That’s because your pet deals damage as well. Is that a lie? Yes it is. DPS pets were gutted, their damage is maybe 10% greater than tank pets. That’s why you use tank pets. Bears. Rawr, baby, yeah.
Gameplay: Have huge sword in hand. Find enemy. Throw sword at enemy’s face. Throw self to take sword back. Proceed to murder said enemy. If enemy is challenging, use Guard a lot. Dodge a lot. If you ever run out of endurance, please send me a detailed replay explaining how you managed that. When things get hairy, pull out your axe and begin kiting swiftly and furiously and mightily.
Alternatives: In dungeons, instead of Rampage as One take Spirit of Nature. Instead of Protect Me take Search and Rescue. Never, ever replace Healing Spring. It is ridiculously strong. Consider Soften the Fall instead of Vigorous Renewal. Replace Honed Axes with Quick Draw when the situation calls for some 1500-range poking. Remember that longbows have an effective range of 1500 on a flat surface.
These are only my own thoughts, but I have less than a hundred hours on my ranger, so I’m less than experienced. Any advice?
Hey, guys! I’m somewhat new with the Elementalist, only about 90 hours into it, so I don’t really know what I’m talking about. I threw together a build for my elementalist now that she’s 80 and with rare gear. Mind commenting on it?
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fEUQFAWhEmKbuR4gjDAhHEwQBDFa4RRxM7A-jQyAIMAcGC5BhCBkCLiGbLoIasaGMNKRUtHhIqWGA/xA-e
My own thoughts on it are as follows…
Advantages: Good condition damage, tanky as hell, very flexible, two stun breakers, generates and exploits combos.
Disadvantages: Not terribly impressive power damage, limited access to burning, somewhat thematically unfocused.
Gameplay: Be on fire. Open up with Flame Burst, start bombarding enemy with Fireballs. When he’s close, Burning Retreat, continue to bombard, then Lava Font. Immediately become rock and soil, Eruption > Shockwave > Unsteady Ground. Kite or facetank thanks to Stoning weakness. Rotate attunements for life steal, protection and might.
When health is low or conditions become an issue, get moist. Healing Rain > Geyser > Arcane Wave. Armor of Earth is great for use with Ether Renewal, and thanks to Signet of Air you don’t need to save it for stun breaks. When your CDs and health become an issue in longer encounters, call up either an elemental while either wet or hard.
When fecal matter makes high velocity contact with the airflow manipulation unit, you must realize that you are, after all, an elementalist, and that retreat is preferred to defeat. Soar away on Gust > Windborne Speed or Static Field > Arcane Wave.
Champion rewards will be different based on their level. However, like other loot rewards if you’re a high level player in a lower level area there is a chance you’ll receive rewards based on your actual level rather than the area you are in each time they drop.
Is there a plan to use some sort of “the longer it’s alive, the better the rewards” system to compensate for the popularity of some champions?
Another for Spectral Walk that I didn’t see mentioned earlier: when falling, pop it once you reach “safe falling height” and then immediately port to it. It will reset your “momentum”. Works on any fall, regardless of distance, you just need to time it right.
But… LF generation and ticking is percent-based, and damage taken while in DS goes through armor just like damage taken to your normal HP…
If anything, even MORE toughness could theoretically work if you can consistently use full DS in fights, thanks to DS increasing effective HP.
Is there something I’m missing?
It works like this when you get a good team:
Warrior :" go on and burst them down, I’ve locked them down for you"
Thief :" no need to watch your back, I’ll watch it for you"
Mesmer :" they’ve thought they were winning…they were wrong"
Guardian:" just hide behind me, I’ll cover for you"
Engineer: “I give you..superior firepower, trash them!”
Ranger :" keep them away from me..they’ll go down soon"
Necromancer :“time to turn the tides of this battle..to our favour”
Elementalist:" when you need…where you need"
In an ideal world, that is how it would work. However, not every class has effective PvP builds right now. I’ve literally no idea what a mesmer would roll in soloQ and expect success, for example.
My own tests lead me to conclude that armor:health ratio of 1:10 is your best bet. This is not only limited to necromancers.
I don’t want to infest the thread with even more math.
I can see that you dont only dont know that but you dont even know the class you are defending at all, do you realize that you can have 5 wells in your character+ deathshroud + plague and probably Last Gasp wich is spectral armor when 50% health depending on how you build the necro.
That build? It could probably hold on for a moment or two on a side point. Good luck lasting for the third moment without evades, vigor or block. And dream on about using it anywhere but a side point.
But thank you for teaching me!
Note: that last bit was sarcasm.
Talk to Spazzcromancer, he has a very effective mid-point bunker Necro.
Oh, I need to see this… I wonder what the rest of his teamcomp is…
(edited by The Boz.2038)
…did you honestly just tell me that I don’t know how to tactically trigger an effect that happens when I revive an ally?
Each and every day I get accused of being a “necro who wants to continue to overwhelm with conditions everywhere”, and each and every day I reply the same way.
Is the Terror/Dhuumfire build OP right now?
Yes.
Are any other necro builds viable for PvP right now?
No.
What would I change with Terror/Dhuumfire?
Replace burning with torment, switch their places around.
Do I think other necro builds need help?
Yes, I do. Particularly axe and main dagger.
Do I think conditions as a whole need to be nerfed?
No.
Now will you please stop with the ad hominem attacks against me, and argue my points, and not my person? Thanks.
Each and every day I get accused of being a “necro who wants to continue to overwhelm with conditions everywhere”, and each and every day I reply the same way.
Is the Terror/Dhuumfire build OP right now?
Yes.
Are any other necro builds viable for PvP right now?
No.
What would I change with Terror/Dhuumfire?
Replace burning with torment, switch their places around.
Do I think other necro builds need help?
Yes, I do. Particularly axe and main dagger.
Do I think conditions as a whole need to be nerfed?
No.
Now will you please stop with the ad hominem attacks against me, and argue my points, and not my person? Thanks.
No. The point of conditions is to go through passive defense. Adding a passive stat to defend against it would be counter-productive.
Sure, bunker for 30 seconds every four minutes. That’s entirely viable.
Note: this is sarcasm.
Hyperbole right there. However avoiding burst punishes the burster. Avoiding the initial condition damage is of no consequence to the applier because another condition can quickly and easily be applied after the defender has tried mitigating the damage in several other ways.
Why, what you are saying is ridiculous! It is almost as if condition damage is made to win through time and attrition!
Also, obligatory SARCASM disclaimer, just in case.
Yes, because all attacks that cause conditions are unblockable, undodgeable, unevadeable, unblindable, unaegisable, uninterruptible, they have no cast times or casting animations, and place a full stack of 25 bleeds with every hit…
Right now condition comp v. balanced comp.
Condition comp wins.
Untrue. Watch the qualifiers, start watching streams, etc. Teams with more than two condition classes lose consistently. Are you now claiming that two of anything is stacking it? Does this mean that all until now we were in a physical-is-op meta because everyone stacked physical damage?
Issue: Condition damage has no HARD COUNTER.
Not even remotely true.
First off, the issue, the original question that you have been dodging, is the following:
If bunkers become effective vs conditions and were no longer countered by them, what possible counter could there be for teams that stacked them?
All your replies were relevant to the current meta, where bunkers are countered by condition builds. You avoided the issue by saying there is a counter, but the issue is “if there wasn’t a counter, what would happen?” Let me remind you, your stance is to remove the only counter bunker builds have right now.
And no, saying “they are countered in 2v1” is not an argument.
Vitality is not a hard counter. And condition removal compared to condition application is grossly imbalanced.
Stop saying that. Stop. Stop. We’ve been over this. Vitality isn’t supposed to be a hard counter. And condition removal is not imbalanced; speccing for cleansing and reduced condition duration will make you impervious to conditions. It will screw you over vs any other build, but it works. Hey, wait a minute! It’s almost as if building a bunker to be effective vs power damage will screw you over vs condition builds!
Amazing!
Condition removal may need brought down in some classes (NECROS) while upped in others (Warriors, engis, certain ranger builds, mesmers).
Doubt it. If you want removal, spec for it. If you don’t want removal, suffer the consequences.
Do some classes have somewhat less effective options? Sure. Tweaks could happen. But not anywhere close to the magnitude you are suggesting.
In general though a huge issue is the class that is most responsible for the AOE condi spam also has the best defense against conditions.
Oh look, the AoE argument again. I guess seven stacks of bleeding every 25 seconds is huge and constant AoE pressure now…
We could even go as far as saying that if we really want vitality to be considered the counter to conditions…
…we don’t.
Well necros got that down packed certain players have tested the exact amount that life force at full is and they got it to total around 60% of the players base health. So a necro that ups their life force can still do somewhat decent AOE condi damage while having the highest vitality in game.
Highest vitality and absolutely no access to protection, vigor, block, dodge, etc.
I find this to be grossly imbalanced other people do as well. Only necros that seem to be relishing in their god mode are the ones that refuse to acknowledge how stupidly out of control the condition spam meta is and how it lacks any real and meaningful HARD COUNTER.
You haven’t provided any argument other than “it’s OP” and “removal can’t keep up”. It isn’t, and it isn’t supposed to.
Bottom line Condition damage needs a BETTER HARD COUNTER.
No it doesn’t, it already has plenty. If you choose not to bring them, it’s your problem.
As someone else has pointed out in this thread
Bunker>Burst
Condition Damage>Burst
Condition Damage>Bunker
Condition Damage>All.
The situation is much more complicated than “bunker”, “burst”, “condition”. Saying something over and over and over again doesn’t make it true unless you back it up with actual proof.
See the problem here? Or are you still blinded by your own necros god mode (see the Boz’s thread stating Feedback on necromancer changes)
…what about that thread?
Also, thanks for the ad hominem.
This thread is nothing more than a kitten fest about how necros got so picked on because the stupidly OP dumbfire trait suffered a minor nerf which is just made up with the stacking of spirit rangers now.
Minor nerf = Reduced effectiveness by 50%. For a grandmaster trait. In a line that’s less than ideal for the build anyway.
Anycase, I guess spirit rangers are now OP as well, right? Never mind the fact that they have this one build, and it is easily hard countered by pressing TAB twice…
…and you continue to avoid the issue… Amazing.
Stacking bunkers is a liability the reason for this is if one bunker gets trained by two or more dps classes they are done. If they get trained by more than one condition classes they are done. And bunkers don’t have the DEEPS to down anyone. Bunkers aren’t meant to lose 1v1s but they aren’t meant to win them either. They are meant to survive the 1v1 indefinitely. The bunker is there to support the DPS players and keep them alive. Condition builds don’t need the support that DPS builds do to survive. More than 2 bunkers on a team is a liability simply because they don’t offer the DPS/condition damage to down anyone with a moniker of toughness. Bunkers are not ever going to be the absolute KINGS of tournament play because they only bring one part of the puzzle to complete a team.
Stacking any type of class/build should be a huge liability however with condition damage builds it isn’t because condition damage builds provide the most AOE pressure while being much more survivable than a burst build and more damaging than a bunker build, and the point of the game is to stand inside a small circle. See the issue here? Or are you so hell bent on necros staying in their kittenedly overpowered state that you cannot see how the
You successfully dodged the issue and avoided the question entirely. Congratulations.
BUNKERS ARE NOT MEANT TO LOSE A 1V1 UNLESS THEY MESS UP! That is the point.[citation needed].
OK, so if bunkers are kings of 1v1, what is the counter to a team with, say, three bunkers and two DPS?
The change you are hoping for would make bunkers the most powerful and most important role in PvP… no wonder, since your sig betrays you play a bunker yourself.
So essentially what you are saying is that a condi build should be able to win a fight against a bunker no matter what? The VERY POINT of a bunker is to not lose a 1v1 under any circumstances they are supposed to hold out against ANY offense in a 1v1 no matter what. (See what I did there)
So essentially what you are saying is that a bunker build should be able to have no counters in the game no matter what? (See what I did there)
…
How the hell would that work? Do you realize what would happen to the game if that was the case, and bunkers were literally unable to lose a 1v1?
It seems to me like you haven’t thought your argument through to its logical conclusion…
The big issue here is that toughness is a very good counter to direct damage. Which is fine ANET has stated that it is intended purpose. Vitality is a terrible counter to conditions which anet has stated they want to be the defense against conditions. It isn’t working. 1v1 a condition build is dominating the entire game. They are also dominating in team fights across the board.
Wrong on everything but the first thing. Or, in other words, [citation needed].
Necros can’t really bunker as well as guardians, elementalists or even rangers. Stability, protection, blocking, vigor, aegis, etc. are pretty much required for the role, and necros have no or very low access to these.
When I said power/crit I meant, power/condi, a lil typo, srries.
I suspected as much, but wasn’t sure.
That is the difference between you and me.
You only want a game to work, I want a game to be worth playing.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!
Oh, wait, sorry… I must regain my composure.
…
MBUAHAHAHAHA!!!
Oh, this is priceless. Absolutely priceless.
By any and all your requirements for the game’s balancing/tweaking… ro-sham-bo is your ideal game (balanced, has counters, works)… yet, quite obviously, that is a rather kittenty game to pay 60 bucks to play.
A game has to be engaging.
…what?
Your argument is… Wow. I don’t even know what spectrum of logical fallacy that falls under.
with dmg’ing conditions being less avoidable and doing more than physical attacks
Wrong on both counts.
and being on the same cleanse deal as every other condition… it’s not an unworkable but its not good, it’s not esports level material… it enforces the gap between burst dps and conditions…
It is esports level material. There. My argument beats your argument. Isn’t logic amazing?
Also, the gap between burst and conditions? Working as intended.
conditions basically set the bar for the ‘sustain game’ since the necessary condition removal to outlast a condi spec is only available through a gimmick or two…
…Every time I read a post like this, I experience a sudden and inexplicable urge to ram my head into a wall.
Why. Do. You. Try. To. Outlast. A. Build. That. Gets. Stronger. With. Time. !?!?!?!?
What kind of backwards logic is that?
“Oh, that thief can CnD/Backstab/Steal burst me down in 1.2 seconds! And he does it from stealth, with no warning! I know the perfect counter: I will burst him down faster!”
That doesn’t work, does it?
See, the situation with conditions is the other way around.
conditions basically clutter the kitten out of group fights, turning most ‘small fight strategic’ condi removal into ‘unworkable’ because of all the miscellaneous conditions floating around.
OK, yeah, looks like we’ll have to try the replace-condi-with-damage approach. Again.
“damage basically clutter the kitten out of group fights, turning most ‘small fight strategic’ healing into ‘unworkable’ because of all the miscellaneous damage flying around.”
Larger fights are harder to predict. Chaos ensues. It is expected, regardless of builds.
Also, straight-up damage has a distinct advantage in larger fights because two straight damage characters will always down one character in a 2v2 faster than the opposite enemy if said enemy has one character that is not specced into straight up damage.
A game, to have quality gameplay, especially if its so focused on being this skirmishy conquest deal (heavy focus on the specs/abilities themselves for depth) needs to be well made…
True. You are yet to prove that “your way” is “the way”, though.
the game needs to have a deeper ‘anti-condition’ setup than a bunch of long CD cleanses and a few gimmicky constant condi removals… the game needs to have a more fluctuating meta than just condi verse burst/physical dmg…
Umm… the game already has fluctuating meta. However, the blanket terms “burst”, “condi” and “bunker” are just that, blanket terms. The exact builds these terms cover are always in a state of flux. Hell, the Terror/Dhuumfire necro is less than a month old, and it’s already got THREE massive nerfs!
Physical dmg isn’t perfect… it has its flaws, the game is built on active defense (dodge rolling, blocking, exc.) so things like thief stealth-backstab and ele insta-gib spikes, quite obviously, don’t fit into the game… but short of that, physical burst tends to be more conditional, it involves being setup or putting your glassy self in the fray to achieve. Notable physical dmg is usually one a few longer CD, obvious animationed skills. Physical dmg (short of retaliation or stealth/insta-gib cheese) has its drawbacks and so doesn’t require such deliberate and out of the way speccing against, to have a playable spec…
You’re being self-ironic there, or something. “Oh, burst doesn’t work in this game, unless it does, and then it’s cheese, but outside of that, physical damage is hard to pull off”.
And you’re wrong.
I’ve always been a fan of splitting dmg conditions and non
If you’re saying what I think you’re saying (separate conditions and removals into damage and cc), then… wow… This… might actually be a good idea! Congratulations!
Oh yes because warriors with the highest health in game just absolutely face tank dem condis! /sarcasm
Actually, a warrior facetanking condition damage and using his cleanses only on disabling effects is a pretty legit strategy. It’s a pretty effective method of killing a condition build; he can deal 50k+ damage before the conditions can deal 25k.
and if you finally manage to down someone…brace yourself…fear fear fear, wells on wells…big kittening bomb…fear fear fear…and so on..
…what?
Is that a critical lack of understanding a necromancer’s downed state, or am I just reading you wrong?
Vitality as a condi mitigation is just sorry excuse and a last resort, it can maybe make you last another few seconds if you are under condi pressure…it is by no means anywhere as effective as toughness vs physical damage…
It helps in both dealing damage to the condition attacker, and in waiting out for cleanse cooldowns or bigger stacks before removal. It’s not as effective as toughness vs physical damage simply because it works against all damage.
Except when someone specs heavily into vit hoping it will mitigate condition will just get hit with bigger numbers from direct damage builds. Which is why people usually only get toughness when speccing defensively and hoping they bring enough condi removal but right now noone can bring enough to keep up
You’re not supposed to bring enough removal and HP in order to basically ignore conditions for an infinite amount of time. The very POINT of condition damage is that they get through ANY defense, no matter what, all they need is time. If your tactic is prolonging a fight, don’t complain that an enemy using a toolset that gets better the longer a fight lasts wipes the floor with you.
Necromancers can still survive fatal falls, regardless of distance. They had two ways to do it, now they have just one that is slightly more difficult to execute.
And lo and behold, healing works against conditions too!
I’d just like to point out that the necromancer forum is yet to be visited by a dev. Last post was from a week ago, and the one before that… well… best not to think about it.
Meanwhile, in SPvP land…
Hello. I main necro. Lyssa is fine.
That is irony.
How is that irony? What’s ironic in those statements? Do you even know what irony is?
You should reread that post.
If your too lazy, to sum it up, I said “the best possible outcome for changing only amulets is hybrid power/crit builds, but it is a bad/messy outcome so you are trying to tackle a problem larger than your proposed fix”
Power and crit isn’t a hybrid build. It’s the standard “white damage” build.
And the standard “white damage” build should never have access to high condition damage at the same time.
Anyways…
You seem to think, “because conditions exist, because they fit an intended role and because they have counters; they are fine” which… if that’s all your thought process behind it… cool… but tragically I expect more from myself… and more from game designers…
Well… if it exists, if it is working as intended, and if it has counters and is balanced, then it is fine.
Where do you see a problem in that? If it works, don’t fix it.
The penultimate goal of any change in a game is engagement… for a game to not be engaging is for a game to, forever and always, fail.
What a novel idea! OK, so… how does this have anything to do with the topic at hand?
Conditions aren’t an unworkable concept, but for them to force builds into cleansing traits/utilities that Anet clearly setup for a game that didn’t require condition removal on every spec… a game that didn’t require a fair deal of condi removal to be able to play a spec…
That is bad game design.
Let’s try this…
“Damage isn’t an unworkable concept, but for it to force builds into healing traits/skills that Anet clearly setup for a game that didn’t require healing damage on every spec… a game that didn’t require a fair deal of damage removal to be able to play a spec…
That is bad game design.”
Yeah, the word salad comes out about the same.
Conditions, when it comes to small fights, tend to be fine. Working around an enemies cleansing and timing your own cleanses right creates pretty interesting gameplay… chills, cripples, exc. are balanced out in it to be worth using, and debatably worth cleansing… but as fights get larger and more miscelaneous conditions bounce around, it completely destroys that dynamic, as any sane amount of cleansing is burned through in a few seconds flat or left useless because of the random cover conditions… even those cover conditions, chill, weakness, crip, exc. tend to stick around for obnoxious amounts of time since it is balanced 1v1… but not at all in larger fights.
That is bad gameplay.
Shall we try the “replace condi with damage” approach again?
Just dps ones and removal…
Which is a very large part of conditions…
Nope. And nope.
Yes dps conditions were intended to have a single stat behind them and lead to mainly ‘only condition dmg’ specs.
They were meant to lead to above-average survivability characters dealing out steady, sustained damage.
No that isn’t necessarily a good thing…
Yes, it is.
it means condition dmg specs innately are forced into a role of ‘survivable pressure’…
Working as intended…
it means specs are required to have hard counters to all conditions (just because dps ones and imob) to be playable.
How the hell do you get to that conclusion? It’s like saying “thanks to warriors, a build needs to have access to perma protection, stability, retaliation, vigor and regeneration to be playable”. Why do people think that pretty much ignoring conditions as a whole is intended gameplay?
It’s a massive mess of pigeon-holing what specs are viable without improving gameplay in the slightest…
…and your idea is to gut some of those viable builds and force them into some kind of power/condi hybrid?
Don’t even get me into condition removal as a topic though…
That’s a kittening kitten fest that Anet doesn’t even seem to want to touch…
That’s because condition removal exists. You’re supposed to bring some. Making a build with no condition removal and then crying to Anet to fix your build without changing your build does not work.
For the umpteenth time, conditions as a whole aren’t the problem.
I feel like I’m ramming my head against a brick wall here.
A condition necro can expect ~1000 damage per second from terror when there’s another condition present.
What type of confrontation do you honestly expect to survive if you’re CCed for six to seven seconds of a fight?
To whoever that said condi spikes don’t exist, you are playing a different game.
It does exist, and at large.
It only exists in the terror+dhuumfire combination, and that is far from the 100% HP to 0 in 1.5s that you described and then deleted.
Realistically, ~2.5-3k DPS for 3 seconds is the most you can expect, and that is if your target doesn’t have a stun break or a condi clear.
Is that a lot? Yes. Everyone agrees about that. But conditions, as a whole, are neither OP, nor do they burst. Stop telling lies, I beg you.
Just put in cast bars somewhere in the UI and asura’s advantages vanish in no time.
I hope this game doesn’t become about cast bars. Being able to instead read the animations of people to know what skills they are using is far more enjoyable and rewarding.
I agree with you, but cast bars are still a good idea, IMO.
What about a simple “sigils are 50% stronger/have a 33% shorter cooldown/stack twice as fast” effect on two-handed weapons? That would be simple to implement, right?
My ideal fix? Terror and Dhuumfire exchange places, Terror stat becomes Power instead of Condition Damage, Dhuumfire becomes 3s torment on crit, 1s ICD. This fixes EVERYTHING, and buffs the power necro that BADLY needs help.
Edit: and no matter what you say you aren’t convincing anyone here or elsewhere that necros condition application isn’t OP esp. when the best anti-condi classes can’t keep up with it.
What an excellent way to participate in a discussion!
Read that as Get more necros run stupidly condi spam builds and hope you condi nuke them before they condi nuke you. I run a build that has 3500 armor good condi cleanse in the heal skill and one in a utility skill. My problem is when someones condition damage is so high that applying 3 conditions at once drops me to half health. How is this even remotely okay especially if it is supposed to be “DOT”. Going from full to half instantly through condis is not Damage over time. It is burst condition damage. And that is not okay.
Unless you go from 0 to burning, poison, and twenty five stacks of bleeding in the span of one second, it is impossible to lose half your health bar (assuming you’re not a full zerk ele or thief) in 3 seconds to conditions.
If you don’t have the tools to keep up with the condi pressure (vitality, cleanse, dodge, etc.), you’re supposed to kill them before they kill you. If you’re unable to do either, and are CONSISTENTLY beaten by conditions, something is seriously wrong with your team or character build.
What exactly was your team doing during that pressure?