Guild Wars 2

I once faced a team with fire air elementalists. Clearly, that is a meta, and is OP.

jportell.2197:

Lopez.7369:

That example is way outdated. I’m talking about the current metagame.

You actually kind of proved my point that most people seem to be behind the current metagame.

And in the current meta game (from playing with people in the top 500 and r40-50) the team comp is as stated above.

No it isn’t.
Gosh, that was hard.

EVERYONE has complained about this.
Well, everyone with half a brain. There are still people opposed to the idea of full stat disclosure, and I fail to understand their motives.

Amir.1570:

But if that isn’t your answer, then please tell me why power damage team comps declined and condition damage team comps is becoming more prominent?

I’ve said it before, but not in this thread: the rise of condition builds happened because of the guardian and elementalist bunkers that were literally uncrackable in a non-condition build. And the main building blocks of those two builds did not change, if conditions as a whole gets nerfed, we’ll just go back to zerk-vs-bunker gameplay. Not a fun meta.

Retaliation should always have been percentile damage, ideally powered by toughness/armor. A retaliation range of 10% (full zerk light armor) to 35 (full toughness bunker) seems balanced to me.

Jourdelune, you have been told. Fenrir just owned you with his impeccable arguments.

…

On a more serious note, I spent the past few minutes trying to find where exactly you managed to refute my arguments. I think the forums must be bugged, I can’t see that post.

What type of warrior build would you like to see become effective? What are you aiming for exactly? Because things you listed in the opening post, things like berserker phantasm, warrior bunkering, rocket boots, etc, they’re not the true problem at all.

Don’t worry, I’ve got more arguments. I’ll bring them up if you refute any of mine.
To me, this entire thread looks like a “I’m a berserker warrior in PvP, make me viable” whine.
Do warriors need some help? Well.. kinda. But they need a very, very, very slight push, because they already have most of the tools needed to do the job.
However, the things you mentioned are not the true weaknesses of the warrior right now.

True. You can’t dodge the fireball that is already inside your face.
Working as intended.

…you are aware that you can dodge/evade/block/invul/etc. condition inflicting attacks, right?
Also, there is a mechanic in this game that states clearly it “reduces condition damage”. It’s called condition removal.

…that’s like saying “damage has no counter except healing”.
But sorry, here, you can have your topic back.

Fenrir.5493:

-Health pool dosent matter at all in this game, is like toughness, what matters in this games is boons, protection is one of the most importants, the most important probably, warrior cant have that but he has 2k more hp, 3k, 4k?, whattever it dosent compensate the fact that mitigation damage its better, also having high health pool is wrong in a warrior because that way their heals are not enought like the heals other classes have (even with the minor buff to the heals). The regeneration of ranger is not only coming for the passive regeneration boon, they have other means to regenerate life, and that is why they can achieve immortality.

Oh lord… Suddenly, all the “conditions are OP” cries make sense. If this is what the majority of people honestly believe, then no wonder you think conditions are OP. Everything is OP if you avoid all possible counters to it.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Please refer to the snip I took of our release page (attached). Here’s the link for the full page: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/august-06-2013/

This should help address the concerns about effects covering animations.

Also, note that when I mentioned the hit box, it was in response to the post before mine. I didn’t have time to quote and make it fancy. I’m fully aware that it’s not completely to do with the hit box.

Excellent! Glad to hear you acknowledge our worries and eager to see how this develops.

That’s exactly why I’d like it to be toughness based percentile damage, not power based flat.

Archaon.6245:

Real problem right now is that dps builds can’t have both dmg AND survivability but condition dmg ones have both cond dmg and vit/tough/boons and kitten…both from traits and amulets..that’s why meta radically moved to cond builds, dps specs can just kill or get killed condition specs can kill and survive while defending a point, expec vs a dps…guess wich one is better for a point control game? If you spec for dmg…both raw or condition you shouldn’t be able to get so much survivability too…you know, it’s called unbalance..

Stop saying this as well, as it just isn’t true.
Want a quick and simple test? Grab two warriors. Give one a valkyrie’s set and a pair of axes, with the proper traits. Give the other two swords and a rabid set, with the proper traits.
Observe their performance in 1v1 fights.

The reason the meta shifted towards conditions is bunkers, not the godlyhood of conditions. Adapt to the build you fear.

Amir.1570:

Simply because it takes a few buttons to get a full condition combo off. Keep in mind that after applying a condition combo, you can simply wait or play defensively (some sort of passive play here) until the target burns their condition cleanse and then re-apply it after. Kinda supports the fact that most condition builds are somewhat low-skill floor + high reward right now.

It takes a few buttons to get any kind of combo off. If anything, conditions take MORE skill than power, because after you deliver your payload, you need to buy yourself some time. It rewards consistency and skilled play, not random procs and short burst encounters.
Prove me wrong.

Amir.1570:

Also I hate to repeat myself but another thing is that it doesn’t help that most conditions are also AoE and not as telegraphed as power damage.

Please stop saying that. It just isn’t true.
Are there AoE condition skills in the game? Sure. Do they outnumber the single-target condition skills in the game OR in the current meta? No.
And they are telegraphed just fine, you just need to get used to dodging things that aren’t OMG-THERE-IS-A-SWORD-SWINGING-AT-MY-FACE!

milo.6942:

pets and dots are the epitome of lazy & noob play
they should never be effective in a game that takes pvp seriously

How the hell is dots lazy & noob play?
What, mindlessly charging with tunnel vision on is your idea of some kind of skillful, honorable PvP ideal?

What numbers would you expect this to generate? I think it could be insanely broken in stuff like flurry, siphon, unload, etc. if the numbers are too high…

brb, banging head against wall

“Keep all of your currencies in one easy-to-find location! This Wallet holds dungeon tokens, coins, karma, laurels, Guild Commendations, Fractal Relics, Badges of Honor, gems, and glory and makes them accessible to any character on your account. Upon logging in with each unique character for the first time after the Wallet has gone live, that character will have all of their currencies deposited into the account-wide collection.”

I’ll be in my bunk.

sigh
OK, here we go…

Atherakhia.4086:

You’re right… this game was designed around conditions working with a single stat with the idea that they’ll focus on defensive stats so DOT’s can work over time and the class would still function. And look where we are now? Conditions are overpowered. They fuel bunker builds. You must use an all or nothing approach to conditions. We have 5 threads on the front page all complaining that the current system doesn’t work.

Conditions aren’t overpowered.
Wow, that wasn’t hard. It’s as if I just blew away your entire argument using… your own argument.
Number of threads on the front page is now a reliable metric to use when balancing the game, is it?

Atherakhia.4086:

So lets go by one thing at a time (and keep in mind these mechanics of DOTs criting, or being fueled by a primary stat work in other MMO’s)

This isn’t other MMOs, this is Guild Wars 2. Also, “works” is defined very, very loosely.

Atherakhia.4086:

If conditions were linked to power you’d allow classes to use all their skills and builds would be more versatile and diverse. You also have the benefit of allowing toughness to work against condition damage.

If anything, you’d see a DECREASE in viable builds. Why use a greatsword and turn power, precision, and critical damage into reliable up-front damage if you could use a sword and turn power, precision, and critical damage into reliable up-front damage backed up by a long-term pressure of bleed stacks?
Also, conditions are a counter to toughness tanking. Have you noticed how people are saying that toughness is a much better stat than vitality? Conditions are here to make sure it doesn’t get out of hand.

Atherakhia.4086:

If conditions needed multiple stats, it would bring bunker builds down to where they should be… sacrificing real damage in favor of defense. If condition damage was reduced across the board by XX% because they were now allowed to crit, or were made more reliable, or had any number of other things working for them, bunker builds couldn’t focus on defensive stats to the exclusion of everything else. If they did, they’d actually sacrifice damage to do it, which they should (and don’t) have to.

It would destroy bunker builds. If you’re a bunker with no damage, what exactly is your plan?
Better yet, if you’re a condition build with no tankiness, … why? Why not just say “bother that nonsense” and generate some sweet up-front damage? What’s the point of setting up damage over time if you can’t survive long enough for that damage to even happen?

Atherakhia.4086:

Now I realize this is the sPvP forum and everyne here’s is against on crit things, and RNG in any fashion, but you’ll need to suck it up and realize that every game is RNG based and it’s that RNG that helps provide pressure on the enemy and push a fight in a different direction. This isn’t a FPS or a 25 year old MMO. We’re not breaking any new ground here.

Circular argument is circular.

Atherakhia.4086:

WoW has eSport arenas, critting DOTs, single power stat focus, resilience, etc. It works there. It could work here. And it’s not even that big a leap to make it work.

Why don’t you go play WoW then?
I, for one, don’t play WoW because the combat mechanics in that game are atrocious. That is why I play this game, and not that game.

Atherakhia.4086:

And as for allowing conditions to crit, it would obviously come with a DPS loss as well. For example, cut condition damage by 30% across the board but then allow them to crit.

That would make conditions less damage-over-time and more burst. That would rather defeat the point of conditions. Do you even lift?

Lopez.7369:

Or, more likely, they asked for player data to confirm their own.

…why?
Why would anyone do that?
It’d be like looking at an image from the Hubble telescope, finding a new star cluster, and saying “gee, this looks interesting, but I need to confirm it. I know! I’ll go to wikipedia and see what they say!”

Atherakhia.4086:

The problem is conditions have a single stat feeding into them. Where a power build has power, precision, and crit damage, a condition build has only condition damage. This then allows a condition spec to focus the remaining item budget on defensive stats like toughness, vitality, and healing power. If you notice, the only bunkers in this game are also condition spec’d as well.

The solution seems obvious… either remove the condition damage stat and make it a function of power (like WoW has) or simply allow conditions to crit and thus requiring condition classes to also stack crit chance and crit damage. Or, alternatively, just come up with a different stat for condition classes to collect. Things like:

A stat to increase condition duration.
A stat to increase condition resistance to dispell.
A stat to give conditions a chance to spread to nearest target.
etc.

Good lord, so much backwards reasoning… I almost don’t know where to begin.
But I’ll try anyway.
Conditions were DESIGNED to have a single stat fueling them and, rather than have a damage output that is gained through multiplying three different stats (which ends up a ridiculously high number), they generate damage output THROUGH TIME. What better way to buy time for the conditions to do their thing than… defensive stats?

And your ideas would flat out not work. Except for the condition duration one. I’d kill for a condition duration/condition damage/toughness combination. Chance to resist dispel? Yes, let’s implement MORE RNG into the game. Chance to spread to nearest target? I… No. Just no. Fueled by power? Are you kidding me? Why? What good could possibly come from this?

While the warrior and ranger may be tactically unviable, no class is as bug-ridden as the necromancer at the moment.

Anti-power guardian? The necro will eat him for breakfast. Anti-condition guardian? The necro will most likely suicide against the retaliation.
But the ele I do see most often falling to the necro, because the ele bunker is a condition damage build, and condition necros laugh at those.

You’ve said that before. It’s not at all true.

jportell.2197:

It’s not about them being applied to fast it is the amount of clear vs. application that is imbalanced.

It’s ALMOST as if there’s this thing called DAMAGE, and then there’s HEALING, and the amount of healing vs. damage is imbalanced! Healing just can’t keep up!

Archaon.6245:

Real problem right now is that dps builds can’t have both dmg AND survivability but condition dmg ones have both cond dmg and vit/tough/boons and kitten…both from traits and amulets..that’s why meta radically moved to cond builds, dps specs can just kill or get killed condition specs can kill and survive while defending a point, expec vs a dps…guess wich one is better for a point control game? If you spec for dmg…both raw or condition you shouldn’t be able to get so much survivability too…you know, it’s called unbalance..

Working as intended. Tankiness is the de-facto multiplier stat for condition damage because conditions take a while to get stacked up, and then take a while to do their damage. Being able to buy that time is inseparable from the build.

No, I agree, the OP-vs-Zerg thing was definitely bad form.

I think everyone who voiced their advice in this thread on how to best troll the champion zerg in Queensdale should be banned from the game.
It’s one thing to play the game and do events, but intentionally disrupting dozens of players for the “lulz” should definitely be a bannable offense.

That’s a problem common to FPS games. Having the same hitbox on two different models doesn’t help if the player is only taking shots that he can SEE would stand a good chance of connecting… IE, not taking shots against the visually smaller model, even though they would hit. It makes aiming take longer in FPS games, and it makes mouse selection in this game take longer as well.

Yarp. The “seconds” pass at 0.33 seconds per second while chilled.

That actually is how chilled works. It affects ALL cooldowns for as long as it stays on you.

The part about “more damage than ever” is questionable, since before it could tank an infinite amount of damage in a single packet, and now it’s just better at taking damage in a greater number of smaller packets.

jmatb.6307:

To be fair though, there are weaknesses in the comps that are putting out all this pressure.

For example, Teldo’s build has no stun break. If you stun lock an Engi in that build they can’t do anything. Necros have no stability access and if they are alone and you have a good CC combo into burst they will get obliterated.

This weakness common to all necromancer builds. The three match-ups that I managed to watch in the tournament, most necromancers died to either high damage bursts from two enemies, or CC spam.

evilapprentice.6379:

I’ve asked you to do is clarify your position.

OK, fine.
Do I think that thief weapon skills being entirely immune to the chill cooldown extender is balanced? No, I do not. Do I think this needs to be changed somehow? Yes, I do. Do I think a 66% initiative regen reduction is a good idea? No, I do not. I’ve already mentioned my idea here, that it should just add 1 or 2 seconds to the base cooldown, just enough to destroy the “spam this until they die” “rotation”.

evilapprentice.6379:

What are you talking about?

This:

evilapprentice.6379:

Ele’s and Engi’s have the potential to completely ignore chill’s CD increase due to their ability to have more than 2 weaponsets. Yes, they are affected by chill in the same manner, but it doesn’t mean as much when you have enough “weaponsets” to cycle through that your not affected by the slowdown at all.

“Oh, I’m chilled now, but that’s OK. I’ll just switch from my power/precision/crit air build into the condition damage fire build, it’s just as effective.” – Said no elementalist ever.

So your argument now is “using situationally unfit skills randomly while the skills you actually want are on a long cooldown is a counter to chill”?

I’m sorry, I was not aware that quoting every single argument in a discussion was a requirement to participate in that discussion.

Oh, nice attempt to obviate an entire page of discussion with “your side had no arguments”.
Go back to reading the arguments. We’ve made plenty.

evilapprentice.6379:

The Boz.2038:

evilapprentice.6379:

Every post in this thread.

Wow, dude.
Wow.
Rarely do I see someone so consistently and persistently wrong.
Still waiting on that “the devs made it so with a reason” reference you mentioned earlier. I won’t hold my breath.

Unfortunately I could not find the article I was referring to. Oh well.

So, do you have any reason you disagree with me, or are you on the “Blind assertions are always right” bandwagon? Agree or disagree, I listed the reasons why I felt that way. If you want to assert that I’m wrong, you’re going to have to back it up.

Umm…
Well, see, the situation now is that thief weapon skills flat out ignore the part about chilled increasing cooldowns. The thread was made to change that, because the OP thinks this is OP. If you categorize statements such as “I think this is OP, it should be changed” as blind assertions, then yes, all we are making here are blind assertions, no matter how well be back them up with theorycraft.

evilapprentice.6379:

Every post in this thread.

Wow, dude.
Wow.
Rarely do I see someone so consistently and persistently wrong.
Still waiting on that “the devs made it so with a reason” reference you mentioned earlier. I won’t hold my breath.

So… what do you do against normal damage? Heals aren’t gonna cut it, so… how do you adapt to that?

…are you serious right now? Conditions are powerful because they lack multiplicative stats?
…
What game are you guys even playing?

stof.9341:

Anelyn.4593:

Maybe IF our attacks (for condi weapon sets) also deal increased damage? Because pretty much that’s all there is, without stacking bleeds / poison there is no damage going (not everyone plays dhuunfire).

Maybe you shouldn’t expect doing much direct damage if you just use a Rabid amulet which is pretty defensive in itself :p Want more? Try the Rampager amulet maybe?

Ahahahahaha! One minor defensive stat = defensive amulet! This is brilliant!
Does that mean Berserker and Rampager gear are the only offensive sets in the game?

stof.9341:

The Boz.2038:

Why do you think I was even talking about you? Narcissistic much?

Because you talked about nobody in particular, so you talked about everybody in that tread, so by extension you talked about my reply earlier too.

I talked about thieves complaining that chill would be OP for them.
You are neither a thief, nor did you say chill would be OP for them.

Why do you think I was even talking about you? Narcissistic much?

It’s really simple: By the time conditions almost kill you, a power build would have killed you twice over.
I guess it’s just hard to understand that damage over time is sustained damage done over a period of time.

As expected, the thieves have their panties in a bunch. Notice how all of them are “Oh, no, chill would totally destroy us because it would be so much more powerful on us than on any other class because reasons and bla bla bla”
These boards make me chuckle.

JETWING.2759:

The Boz.2038:

Retaliation should be changed to Toughness-dependant percentile damage.
Placeholder formula would be a simple 5 + ( 0.01 * Toughness ) % as damage reflected.
The only problem here is that it wouldn’t be very effective at lower levels, but the formula can be modified to correct that.

Bad idea.

Some classes (i don’t want list) could run full rabid, and spam protection + retaliation + condition and become unkilabe.

…because conditions are totally not a thing in this game, right?

The problem is that Retaliation doesn’t counter power damage, it counters NUMBER OF ATTACKS. IE conditions and the flurry-type attacks.