100% on crit. With a normal, say, 50% crit chance, it has the effect of a 1s ICD already.
If an ICD were forced into the skill, I think it should be lower than the duration of the torment caused by the trait. Otherwise it is an absolute damage drop off without much to compensate for it. Ten seconds of torment do not equal four seconds of burning.
No Internal CD = you can stack on 45 seconds of torment every 30 seconds on everyone in wide range with epidemic.
The cries of nerfs would drown out this forum.
Do you even math? Because I do, and I can’t for the life of me figure out what you’re on about here…
Replacing burning with torment could also be another way to nerf the dhuumfire/terror combination without collateral damage.
Once again, the necro suffers from the “we never asked for this” problem.
Mortar would only be worth it if it was a turret.
You could even use the portal cave in LA for this! Good idea!
I absolutely agree that the trait lines need to be redesigned, together with their linked attributes. Power should go with the class-specific attribute, precision with crit damage, condition damage with condition duration, vitality with toughness, and healing power with boon duration.
It would open up more build options, but I can see how someone could understand that as a flaw. The thing is, you only need to tone down the most powerful combinations, if their power is deemed too much; you don’t need to touch the niche builds.
However, I do not agree with the rest of the “axe healing power, merge malice and prowess into skills” suggestion. I don’t think that would work well at all. Also, zerkers. Zerkers everywhere.
3 stacks every 10 seconds would be very bad, yes. That’s why I suggested 3 seconds, 1 stack, no internal cooldown in the opening post.
The cooldown function is covered by the RNG and the fact that a necro with over 50% crit chance is a rare sight.
Reasons for substitution:
1. Avoids the stack cap. If an mob has a chance of reaching the bleeding cap, it probably already has 100% burning uptime.
2. It extends the necromancer’s control options. Burning is just damage, but torment forces the target to make a choice.
3. The style of the condition fits the condition necromancer more, without the possibility of breaking it; slower damage up front, possibly bigger total.
4. It would make torment a condition that is very easily linked to necromancers, the way confusion is linked to mesmers.
OK, yeah, there are some fine tuning in there, sure, but… Barbed Precision is an adept minor trait for 66% on crit 2s bleed, no cooldown. It would only be logical that a grandmaster major trait is more oomphy than that.
And one necro attacking as fast as humanly possible with daggers and 100% increased condition duration will only have ~7 torment stacks up, so only a fourth necromancer with an identical build would make the stack cap visible.
This is a repeat of my own thread in the Necromancer forum. I started both because I couldn’t decide where to best open the thread.
I think it would be a good idea to change Dhuumfire’s 4s burning every 10s to a 3s torment without internal cooldown. First off, it would solidify torment as the Necromancer’s condition. It fits both mechanically and thematically, both for necros and Dhuum himself. It would help duels against highly mobile classes, it would rarely suffer from the stack cap in PvE since the condition is pretty rare, and it would be much more reliable without an internal cooldown. The normally low-mobility necromancer could have a brand new weapon to use against anyone that has better movement options than themselves (which is almost everyone), and that also fits the theme.
I think it would be a good idea to change Dhuumfire’s 4s burning every 10s to a 3s torment without internal cooldown. First off, it would solidify torment as the Necromancer’s condition. It fits both mechanically and thematically, both for necros and Dhuum himself. It would help duels against highly mobile classes, it would rarely suffer from the stack cap in PvE since the condition is pretty rare, and it would be much more reliable without an internal cooldown. The normally low-mobility necromancer could have a brand new weapon to use against anyone that has better movement options than themselves (which is almost everyone), and that also fits the theme.
If a thief leaves you enough time to use defensive abilities, he’s doing it wrong. By the time he appears next to you, without the stealth bug/lag/whatever, you’re down at least 13k health.
Don’t worry, only the engineer’s stolen skill is not stronger than anything the profession being stolen from has.
OK, please, explain… how the HELL do you consider the engi downstate useless!?
HOW!?
In most other games, the “burst vs dot” balance is designed in such a way that burst will, in some cases, be enough to drop someone really fast if an opening is secured, but a dot will do more damage in time.
In this game, dots lose out on both fronts.
I play a condition necro, and I often find myself what’s the point of my role that a straight up damage build couldn’t do too? It can’t be countering low-HP guardians and eles, because their bunker builds are often ~immune to conditions, with how fast they remove them…
I play on Desolation, and I thought we only lost to FR servers due to Canada playing while we’re not.
Last time I did any calculations, Vitality came on top of Toughness in almost every scenario. The only saving grace of toughness is the effective healing buff.
@Boz: According to wiki the damage formula is:
Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
Based on that there is no double power. And doubling the power and armor should keep damage same. However the thing is that starting power is much lower than starting armor. You need more toughness to double your armor than power to double your power.
I see now. In that case, it’s either my own understanding that is outdated, or someone edited the article wrong. Will try to test.
Engineer downstate is quite alright if only 1 stomper.
The mometn there are 2 or more, you best hope they go drink a coffee first, till your #3 comes of cooldown finally.
Because else there is nothing you can do to protect yourself.That is a factor too: what professions can survive multiple stompers for a while?
Engineer is only decent versus 1.
Necro has a single-target 1s fear. That’s it. Engineer can survive one immediate stomp and two later stomps thanks to 2 and 3.
Power wins vs Toughness because the damage formula double-dips into power.
Let’s say an attack deals a base 100 damage and has a 0.2 Power ratio.
Let’s also say, for argument’s sake, that a character has a base of 1000 Power and 1000 Thoughness.
The damage of the attack executed by an average character against another average character is given by the formula:
(skill damage + Power ratio) * (Power/Thoughness), and so the attack deals 300 damage.
Now let’s let both characters choose a stat and increase it by 500. The attacker chooses Power, the defender chooses Thoughness. Now, in an ideal case, the opposing attributes should cancel each other out, however…
(100 + 300) * (1500/1500) = 400
The damage has increased.
And that’s just one of the two problems. Damage scales by multiplying three attributes: Power (twice), Precision and Critical Damage. Survivability scales by multiplying two attributes: Toughness and Vitality.
I could go on, but I think I’ve made my point.
…people honestly think necro has a better downstate than engie?
WAT!?
It says 4, but you get 5 ticks, and it lasts 5 seconds.
Scepter 1 is 5 seconds, not 4.
In an ideal world Lich Form would be a Spectral skill, Plague and Consume Conditions would be Corruptions, and the Necromancer would be a balanced, bug-free class.
Sadly, though…
Resetting trait points often in the first 15 levels?
What?
Don’t forget that the life force also trickles out at a steady pace while in shroud form.
You people have made posts outlining the exact problem this thread was made to remedy: Death Shroud is very, very hard to make fit into any build. Customizing it via passive minor traits is, I think, the way to go. I don’t think any of the other options (customize via major traits, outright buffs, full rework) are either as good or as realistic to expect.
Necro and engie bunkers are very counterable by most classes, and conditions work reliably. However, the ele bunker and one of the two guardian bunker builds are untouchable by conditions.
I-WIN buttons are not outsmarting your enemy, KBP.
I was like WTH!?
But then…
…Last match was raid on the capricorn
Oh. Hotjoin 8v8. Right. Moving right along…
Better than a guardian? None.
You can last 26 seconds + however long they take to finally kill your 40k HP with 2.9k Defense, but that is the best case scenario in an ideal world. You have very limited or no access to most tanking boons, evasion skills, or invulnerability, and contrary to popular belief, your healing is not significantly above average.
100b is a channel.
PW is a stun.
Vapor doesn’t “give” a big chunk of health, it SETS the HP to the appropriate value based on the downed penalty. Getting downed and using VF = 50% HP. Using it again = 25% HP. Using it again = almost completely certain death.
I really don’t think racial skills are worth it. Sure, they can be situationally useful sometimes, but using them for any general play? I doubt it.
You don’t rally on downed.
Would you care to elaborate?
I tried, forum ate my long reply.
Basically, what you said about “the same thing can be said about anything else” is true and irrelevant.
Let’s take a simple scenario of three values, 2, 2 and 4. These values enter combat by rolling a six-sided die, adding the result to their own value, and comparing which side has the greater total. Ties are rerolled.
2v2 is a balanced match up, because each has the same chance of rolling a higher number than the other.
2v4 is not a balanced match up, and it should really be obvious to anyone that this is so. Can 2 win against 4? Sure. So 4 can, in fact, be countered. Are the odds so heavily in favor of 4? Certainly. So the fact that 4 can be countered does not automatically imply that 4 is balanced.
Do you understand now?
Unicron, I can’t quote you, but I must inform you that your statement is wrong. Ironic, since it’s a statement that states another statement is wrong, but hey… wrongception or whatever.
If you’re playing a condition necromancer, odds are, you’re not winning against a shatter mesmer. Can you win? Sure, if your elite is ready, your life force is full, and you really know what you’re doing or are at least as good as your enemy, I’d say you have a 40% chance at best.
Once again: being able to sometimes beat something does not mean that something is OK, balanced, in line, or whatever. You need to look at costs, opportunity costs, dedication costs, skill (im)balance, final state etc. Statistics.
A thief will not always defeat a warrior, but should 60% of the time at least. A warrior will not always defeat a necro… well… that one actually is a 50% match up. But a thief will beat a necro at least 70% of the time, as will a mesmer, with player skill being equal and not in the “clicking skills but first reading the descriptions” area.
Phantasms also GREATLY outdamage any conditions in both absolute damage and DPS.
Incorrect.
My Condition Elementalist alone can stack Bleed/Burning for far more than 1k/second, and that damage is non-critical, AoE, and cannot be dodged once applied (You’re forced to clear it.)
It takes 2 seconds worth of channel on cooldowns to produce 2 Phantasms. It takes a critical hit to deal high damage (Reliant on traits + Mesmer’s stats.) All the while, these damage sources can be Destroyed, dodged, and CCed, and also go idle if target is invisible, and self destruct if they breach max control distance chasing their target.
Should mention, all but berserker and warden are single target attackers as well.
Issue here is viability of survival vs damage performance. My condition damage Elementalist is pure glass cannon, but the clones/phantasms double as distractions. Simply put, better survival tools for other classes are needed.
Congratulations, you used an entire elementalist skill bar in order to reach the DPS of two or three mesmer phantasms. Give yourself a pat on the back and a virtual cookie.
My favorite idea for nerfing thieves is this:
Keep initiative, reduce all weapon skill activation times by ~0.5 seconds, add a ~0.5s global weapon skills cooldown on skill use. That way chilled means something.
And yes, I agree, Mug, as a trait, is hyperawesome, as is Assassin’s Signet.
Take damage much?
Phantasms also GREATLY outdamage any conditions in both absolute damage and DPS.
…I think I want to bump this. Things haven’t changed, but more people have been playing Necro, and I think we can revitalize this discussion now.
Being counterable doesn’t mean you’re balanced; it just means that somebody out that can, in certain circumstances, sometimes kill you.
You could probably troll bad people endlessly on some guardian builds, maybe even on a bunker elementalist as well, but I don’t see anyone else do it. Even a mesmer would be overwhelmed, and the amount of random AoE from four guys would kill off his illusions nearly instantly.
An infantryman with a grenade can counter a tank. Theoretically. Doesn’t mean that a tank is balanced against an infantryman.
Thief has a list of things that are extremely good, but also a list of things that are just a little bit better than similar skills on classes that should have the same role in the build that uses said skills. They’re hyper-effective in whatever they want to try and do, except for point defense, I guess.
Hutball was agonizing. If you selected the wrong class a month ago, you lost at hutball.
Short answer: hell no.
Yes. One for the real mesmer and one for the ele.
There are skills and the Protection boon that decrease incoming damage. There’s Vitality that makes incoming damage less devastating, and it seems to be better than Thoughness.
Thoughness is added to defense. Damage of power attacks is calculated as random weapon damage * skill power modifier and is futher multiplied by (attacker power/defender defense). The listed damage is based on 2600 defense. Non-weapon skills have a fixed value for the weapon damage.
On a high-hp class, 768 thoughness increases effective health vs power attacks by a little over 22%(if the base is 2600, the effectiveness is much better for medium and light armor classes, approaching 33% in the former case), whereas vitality will increase effective health vs all damage by ~30%. Thoughness has a very slight edge in increasing effective healing as it makes each point of health worth more, but the effect is not as dramatic.
Theboz 7:51 shows 2 downed arrows, one for ele, one for clone and 1 target arrow on the clone. Are you watching the same video?
Target arrow, for the umpteenth time.