Guild Wars 2

mtpelion.4562:

LordByron.8369:

thank you to prove again how flippers are just economic parasites.

In case gold inflates just wonder what farmers will do…
Farm materials

While flippers won t do anything :| but leech gold.

If I understand your argument correctly you believe that anyone who has more money than you is a parasite and that someone should force those people with more money than you to have the same amount of money as you.

I could have sworn that I’d heard this argument before…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror

Honestly, I think a little education is better than this back and forth crap. It took me several hours of posting before anyone was willing to explain this to me, and then only in the most condescending manner.

Here’s how I understand it. Flippers correct an inefficiency in the market. In an efficient market the sell and buy price would be separated by only the 15% TP fee. However, due to a bunch of stuff I don’t understand (but I’m sure someone does), that isn’t what happens. Instead the difference in price is more like 30% or 50%.

This inefficiency creates the opportunity for a profit. The flipper buys low and sells high and consequently brings the two numbers closer together. There’s some gobblety kitten about finding the “true value” of the item. I still think don’t buy that that’s particularly important of valuable in a virtual economy, but I’ll go with it.

Note: This is entirely different than market manipulation, which also happens and is absolutely parasitic (unless someone wants to explain to me, preferably nicely, why it’s not.)

Justdeifyme.9387:

TooBz.3065:

Justdeifyme.9387:

Troop.1369:

Justdeifyme.9387:

Opinions are a great thing. You play 45 minutes a day. Great!
I play several hours a day, Great!

You understand?

What more do you have? After your 6 pieces of ascended. Missing the point?

Actually you are missing my point completly, I’ll try to make it clear.

What I was trying to say is, while he plays 45 minutes without fun, I can play several hours with fun, which concludes that it’s his fault, not the game’s fault.

Yes and no. I think the game has some screwy incentives. Generally earning laurels isn’t very much fun.

It’s like ANet sets a trap, “I’ll give you a shiny if you just agree to let me bore you for 20 minutes.” ANet shouldn’t do that. That’s on Anet.

In contrast, you can still get the shiny if you just do what you feel like doing and mop up later. Instead the OP tries to bee line to the shiney. The OP shouldn’t do that. That’s on the OP..

Of course this game isn’t perfect and much needs to be improved, but threads of this kind aren’t helping anyone. I’m a Gw2 fanboy, I admit it, I follow Anet blindly into hell, but I really welcome constructive and well written feedback, and Anet probably does the same. But on the other side threads like this make me angry.

I agree (+1). I enjoy the game a great deal. I but from time to time I get into a rut, usually (for me) that happens when I’m chasing something that ANet sets out as a goal. It’s much more fun to play in the sandbox. What I find, it that immediately when I decide not to chase whatever goal it is, I start having a good time again.

I really don’t know how to stop this. Some people like having goals laid out for them, some people don’t. I like to play for fun rather than for a reward. My point to the OP is that perhaps he got caught up playing for the reward and not the fun.

Sliekery.7862:

Just stop playing Guild Wars? It’s better for everyone.
1. You can use those 45min for your other games.
2. You don’t ruin 2 pvp games for the people that actually enjoy it.
3. Less complaining.

What’s holding you here? I mean why bother farming those laurels, if you aren’t going to use them?

Yeah, Akitteng a PvP match is crap. Don’t do that.

Justdeifyme.9387:

Troop.1369:

Justdeifyme.9387:

Opinions are a great thing. You play 45 minutes a day. Great!
I play several hours a day, Great!

You understand?

What more do you have? After your 6 pieces of ascended. Missing the point?

Actually you are missing my point completly, I’ll try to make it clear.

What I was trying to say is, while he plays 45 minutes without fun, I can play several hours with fun, which concludes that it’s his fault, not the game’s fault.

Yes and no. I think the game has some screwy incentives. Generally earning laurels isn’t very much fun.

It’s like ANet sets a trap, “I’ll give you a shiny if you just agree to let me bore you for 20 minutes.” ANet shouldn’t do that. That’s on Anet.

In contrast, you can still get the shiny if you just do what you feel like doing and mop up later. Instead the OP tries to bee line to the shiney. The OP shouldn’t do that. That’s on the OP..

The simple fact of the RNG store is that you are always better off exchanging gems for gold and buying what you want from the TP.

If it’s not available on the TP and it’s not offered directly from the gem store then forget it.

This goes for black lion chests, mini packs, and dye packs. I’ve tried all three at some time or the other over the past 8 months and have always been disappointed.

I think the problem is that you shouldn’t play the game rewards, you should play it for the fun of playing it.

I frequently find that if I focus on the reward I don’t enjoy myself very much. If I decide to grind out COF, or I play the TP, or I just try do my daily / monthly then I’m quickly bored and frustrated.

On the other hand, if I log in and decide what I want to do for fun and do that, I have a much better play experience. For example, sometimes I want to try a new jumping puzzle, so I pick one I haven’t done and go do it. Although there is a chest at the end, nobody is going to spend however long (15 minutes or so the first time) for a support token, 2 blues, and a green.

Other times I feel like running around in WvW, so I do that. Sometimes I want to run a dungeon. About once every couple of months I get it into my head to do a fractal (which always reminds me why I don’t do fractals).

Sometimes I feel like working toward map completion. (this is usually when I just want to waste a little time).

At almost no point am I doing any of it for the rewards it provides.

Sometimes I don’t really want to do anything at all. In which case I don’t log in, or I log in, realize nothing appeals to me, and log out.

Afya.5842:

I really don’t understand this logic. By saying disparity, between which groups of people??

Read the note, single path reward is now increased. So the “lower” class casual players are getting richer, and cof farmers can still farm different dungeon paths to earn money.

So tell me, where is the wealth disparity?

By wealth disparity we’re talking about the concentration of wealth in the hands of a relatively few individuals.

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

Yes that was me.

In between that post and this one I explained why it may matter. That is, effectively pricing someone out of the end game. Basically, you have to flip or you can do it.

I’m not even saying this is happening. I’m just saying it’s an interesting thing to consider.

Except that’s not how it works.

Play the game. You can find a popular skin within its first few days after release and sell it for 100 gold. Or a precursor can drop during an event. I’ve had several exotics worth 5+ gold drop during meta-events, and through pure luck became 500 gold richer. I didn’t exploit the game or scam people out of money. I just play the game and money comes.

From time to time I play the TP, but I’m not JP Morgan or Gordon Gecko. I approach it casually and don’t worry too much over the results. There’s a trick to it and once you learn the trick money will just come to you.

The only problem here is the one that comes up in every facet of these games – people who don’t want to put in the effort to learn the game want the same rewards that come to people who do put in that effort.

Anet is the only one who would have the data to consider the effects of wealth disparity. They probably have metrics and stuff. I’m not advocating a hand out or a redistribution of wealth, nor am I suggestion that we overturn the system.

Someone early in this thread commented that “luxury” goods may be over priced. So I thought about it… what are luxury goods and why are they important. I think that in a game luxury goods are more important because everyone expects to eventual attain them (note: this is a single player gamer viewpoint, I don’t have vast MMO experience).

So if the price of these luxury goods keeps moving faster than the income growth of the average player what does that mean?? To me it probably means that people start crying for attainable goals. For example, ascended gear. I hate ascended gear.

So this doesn’t have anything to do with people not wanting to do the work. Or the evils of flipping. It has more to do with the idea that there may be more work that has to be done now than had to be done in the past.

I have always stated that this is speculation. I’m not putting this forward as a fact. It’s a thought experiment.

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

I do however, think there have been several good comments about the effect to wealth disparity on the game, which, while not the main topic, should at least be considered.

There is a huge Achievement Point disparity in the game. Some people have over 10,000 points while I have less than 5,000. Therefore, to be fair to everyone, anyone with more than 7,500 points needs to have 2,500 points removed, while anyone with less than 5,000 points needs to have 2,500 points added.

Oh, and everyone gets a Legendary weapon, because if one person gets something, everyone else should get it too.

The two things are so obviously different that I have to conclude that you are being disingenuous driven only be a desire to maintain your wealth. I at least consider the positions that you put forward.

What wealth? I just bought my 15th character slot – goal is to have 2 of every class and maybe a spare slot for fun… I approach the game casually and spend it as fast as I get it.

I think perhaps you were the one who commented that when I got a Dusk from the SB
event that I was rich beyond belief… until I said I have over a dozen alts and the money would go towards gear and leveling… I got over 500g for it after fees and was broke a month later. I don’t care about money, it’s just a game!

And, no, they are not obviously different. Someone who plays the game a lot accumulates points, someone who plays the TP a lot accumulates gold. The only difference is that the gold gets spent on other things while the points just keep building up.

Why is it such a threat that I suggest that wealth disparity may not be good for the game?

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

I do however, think there have been several good comments about the effect to wealth disparity on the game, which, while not the main topic, should at least be considered.

There is a huge Achievement Point disparity in the game. Some people have over 10,000 points while I have less than 5,000. Therefore, to be fair to everyone, anyone with more than 7,500 points needs to have 2,500 points removed, while anyone with less than 5,000 points needs to have 2,500 points added.

Oh, and everyone gets a Legendary weapon, because if one person gets something, everyone else should get it too.

The two things are so obviously different that I have to conclude that you are being disingenuous driven only be a desire to maintain your wealth. I at least consider the positions that you put forward.

What wealth? I just bought my 15th character slot – goal is to have 2 of every class and maybe a spare slot for fun… I approach the game casually and spend it as fast as I get it.

I think perhaps you were the one who commented that when I got a Dusk from the SB
event that I was rich beyond belief… until I said I have over a dozen alts and the money would go towards gear and leveling… I got over 500g for it after fees and was broke a month later. I don’t care about money, it’s just a game!

And, no, they are not obviously different. Someone who plays the game a lot accumulates points, someone who plays the TP a lot accumulates gold. The only difference is that the gold gets spent on other things while the points just keep building up.

Yes that was me. (Edit: and you were rich beyond belief)

In between that post and this one I explained why it may matter. That is, effectively pricing someone out of the end game. Basically, you have to flip or you can’t do it.

I’m not even saying this is happening. I’m just saying it’s an interesting thing to consider. If it is true, then the difference is that my getting achievement points doesn’t prevent someone else from enjoying the end game stuff. Whereas a concentration of wealth may.

Behellagh.1468:

TooBz.3065:

Second, almost any increase in a gold source will result in a corresponding (and larger) increase in the money to be made on the TP. This is because each gold piece introduced into the market is spent many many times. Each time it passes through the TP (without a buy order being placed) a flipper is taking 10-50%.

Love to know how you come up with that number.

I’m going to keep saying this until it takes, a flipper isn’t holding a gun to the head of players who sell cheap and buy high, he is merely taking advantage of the fact that those players don’t want to be bothered putting in the effort to sell/but for a better price. If more players did, then those “evil flippers” wouldn’t have the supply or customers that they make their money on.

For me, I rarely sell to highest seller. I take a moment to check out the price range of the current items for sale and many times price mine at a higher value than the lowest seller because I can tell that the current low sell price is an anomaly caused by someone who is ever so slightly less impatient that your average player who simply accepts the highest bid. Or that the price is churning within a range and I price my item closer to the top of that range.

But the energy drink swigging twitch gamer with the 2 second attention span doesn’t want to do that and it’s that lack of effort on their part that are making traders and flippers rich. So instead of blaming the traders and flippers for their accumulated wealth why not blame the lazy players who don’t bother trying to get a better price for an item, buying or selling, that allowed them to fill the niche created by these players.

Did you even read my post? Nothing in that post was complaining about flippers. I was explaining why things shouldn’t be changed by increasing the amount of money that people make from other ways would not reduce the amount of money people can make in the market. It would increase it.

The number came up from my personal experience with the price of goods on the trading post. Mostly I made it up. Upon reflection, the number was wrong on the top end. It’ should have been more like 10-33%. I was originally thinking about flipping profits. which are 10-50%. 50% is extreme, but not unheard of in terms of profit.

Edit: Sorry that was mostly incoherent.

mtpelion.4562:

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

I do however, think there have been several good comments about the effect to wealth disparity on the game, which, while not the main topic, should at least be considered.

There is a huge Achievement Point disparity in the game. Some people have over 10,000 points while I have less than 5,000. Therefore, to be fair to everyone, anyone with more than 7,500 points needs to have 2,500 points removed, while anyone with less than 5,000 points needs to have 2,500 points added.

Oh, and everyone gets a Legendary weapon, because if one person gets something, everyone else should get it too.

Wealth concentration can lead to market stagnation, but that is not really a concern in a game because those with the wealth cannot control production or own property/resources.

The main thing to explore (and this is just something to consider not a given) is whether or not the concentration of wealth pushes up the price of the end-game products. (Precusors, legendaries, lodestones, etc…)

If they decide that it does then they have to decide whether or not this is a problem. The reason this becomes interesting is that in a typical analysis, the cost of luxury goods isn’t usually included (for example it does not figure into inflation). But here, an increase in the price of end game goods could effectively prevent a large portion of the gaming population from reaching / enjoying the end game.

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

I do however, think there have been several good comments about the effect to wealth disparity on the game, which, while not the main topic, should at least be considered.

There is a huge Achievement Point disparity in the game. Some people have over 10,000 points while I have less than 5,000. Therefore, to be fair to everyone, anyone with more than 7,500 points needs to have 2,500 points removed, while anyone with less than 5,000 points needs to have 2,500 points added.

Oh, and everyone gets a Legendary weapon, because if one person gets something, everyone else should get it too.

The two things are so obviously different that I have to conclude that you are being disingenuous driven only be a desire to maintain your wealth. I at least consider the positions that you put forward.

Right after you said you are not going to dilute the thread I’m going to dilute the thread. (Anyway the “masters of the universe” already did it by talking about matlab etc…)

First, I don’t think John is the right person to talk to about this, nor is this the correct forum, because John’s job is to watch the economy not general player satisfaction – he cares about balancing gold sources and gold sinks. He may be concerned about wealth distribution, but judging from the tenor of previous posts I’m going to say he’s really not. He may be watching it, but barring a real ability for the peasants to revolt…. Paul Krugman (not known as a conservative) has said that you can have a perfectly functional economy with great wealth disparity.

Second, almost any increase in a gold source will result in a corresponding (and larger) increase in the money to be made on the TP. This is because each gold piece introduced into the market is spent many many times. Each time it passes through the TP (without a buy order being placed) a flipper is taking 10-50%.

To me, the only way to balance out these forces is to make the system less reliant on the TP. If there were merchants who sold items worth having then the need to buy everything on the TP would diminish. For example, there could be a dye vendor, some cooking supplies could be purchased directly from farmers, etc.

Edit: I’m not saying that John doesn’t want us to have fun. Of course he does. It’s just not his primary job description.

John Smith.4610:

This is a great thread.

A few minor thoughts:
The TP is part of the world of Tyria and spending your time interacting with it is just as legitimate a play session as dungeons or jumping puzzles or any of our other fantastic content.

That being said, I see no evidence academically, theoretically or in practice that flipping items on the TP doesn’t push prices closer to equilibrium, eliminate dead weight loss and increase utility/surplus for the market on both the consumer and producer side.

I currently have no plans to limit players interaction with the TP in the world of Tyria in anyway. I believe it would be damaging to the economy, to the game experience and to the players overall.

That being said, if you have a dissenting opinion please discuss it here and voice your beliefs and concerns, we’re always watching and reading and learning and your input has been both intelligent and extremely valuable in the past.

edit: Edited because Juno makes a valid point.

Sorry, but I just can’t resist (I really tried).

Anyway, as I said earlier. I don’t think anyone seriously expects a limit to be placed on the TP, and I’m not entirely sure it should be.

I do however, think there have been several good comments about the effect to wealth disparity on the game, which, while not the main topic, should at least be considered.

I play because I like the game. It’s mostly pretty good. Sometimes I run out of things to do, or realize that I don’t want to do any of them and I log off. Usually there’s about an hour or so of stuff I enjoy.

I complain either because
1) A change has been announced that I dislike (more ascended gear)
2) I feel like ANet has made changes that seem unfair. (favoring people with 1 toon over alts, when people with lots of alts most likely account for a larger percentage of ANet’s revenue)
3) It appears that ANet has forgotten that the game is suppose to be fun.
4) I feel like discuss things on the forums, sometimes I take a contrary position just for the heck of it.

Raine.1394:

Erasculio.2914:

Viking Jorun.5413:

He was talking about combat. Learn to read/listen. Kids these days, they hear what they want.

Not really.

When he says, “We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun”, he’s not saying “we don’t want people to grind for levels, but grinding gear is ok”. He is saying that grind is bad because grind is not fun (and it isn’t). There isn’t any way to make it clearer than saying “no one finds it fun”.

By removing grind, combat isn’t just a matter of mindlessly killing a big number of enemies as quickly and as easily as possible, so it would definitely change how people see combat.

Unfortunatelly, ArenaNet changed their minds and decided to make a game filled with grind. The result is that their plan – to make a MMO for people who don’t like MMOs – failed. The GW2 community is made by the same grinders, farmers, addicts and exploiters who populate all other MMOs, and little else.

Actually, in the written manifesto, the statements follow the section on combat. It’s a new paragraph that begins to summarize all that has gone before. This makes sense as the statements don’t really have anything to do with combat; ‘grind’ is not even remotely associated with a games combat systems.

This is a really good point. The actual statement in the written manifesto is

It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.

Hell Avenger.7021:

TooBz.3065:

Hell Avenger.7021:

TooBz.3065:

So far it’s really only the Gekkos who come out to play.

Gordon Gekko is about insider trading, this is not about insider trading. Now insider trading is an issue when website get news before everyone else does. Which happens in this game, and that is truly unfair

Gekko is about insider trading, but is most famous (IMO) for the “greed is good” speach. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vscG3k91s58

Greed is good. There are a lot of sense in that message, just said by the wrong “person”

And there you go. No one is saying that you are participating in Insider trading or that you have in any way violated any rule of the game. Just that you advocate the position you just endorsed.

Hell Avenger.7021:

TooBz.3065:

So far it’s really only the Gekkos who come out to play.

Gordon Gekko is about insider trading, this is not about insider trading. Now insider trading is an issue when website get news before everyone else does. Which happens in this game, and that is truly unfair

Wall Street is about insider trading, but Gekko is most famous (IMO) for the “greed is good” speech / attitude. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vscG3k91s58

I think this is what ilr was alluding to.

Almost every post from on this thread has been talking about how how flippers are good. Good for inflation, good for the market, etc… There have occasionally been posters (on other threads long ago) who argued that the rest of us should thank the flippers for making tons of money.

Also, some things are just funny.

Because you basically have to buy the precursor and 60% of the materials from the TP.

So far it’s really only the Gekkos who come out to play.

kittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnmeraldtryst.8491:

I won’t try to argue that flipping is good for the economy but it certainly isn’t bad. It’s a non-issue. I will say that an increase in the number of flippers is better for the average farmer—assuming that, as most people, that the average farmer sells his items right away at the highest buy order price.

If you look at an item that is lightly traded with few flippers, the spread between the buy and sell prices is much larger. If a lot of flippers are trading an item, the buy orders keep creeping higher as people try to outbid other buyers. As a result, the farmer gets a much better price if he elects to just sell his loot for an instant profit.

As far as the concentration of wealth…well, I suppose a flipper has a much larger potential for wealth than the average player. But why does that even matter? A dedicated flipper isn’t even really playing the same game as you. There is only so much you can even buy and at the high end it’s almost all superfluous crap related to appearance.

We talked about this a few pages ago but, the reason it matters, or may matter (depending on your viewpoint) is all that superfluous crap is the end game.

Because of the consolidation of wealth, the price of getting skins etc extends beyond the reach of the normal gamer, normal gamers therefore get fed up and demand obtainable goals. And thus was time gated ascended gear invented.

Which is the worst thing to happen to the game since — well, forever.

Not sure I buy this entirely. I think the real culprit is ANet and not flippers. ANet made the barrier to getting the superfluous crap way to high.

Viking Jorun.5413:

wolfie.7296:

Colin Johanson: “We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. "

Congratulations. You can take things out of context just like every other politician.
Here’s the whole quote:
Colin Johanson: “When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’ In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”

He was talking about combat. Learn to read/listen. Kids these days, they hear what they want.

So as long as combat is fun it’s okay if the rest of the game is a boring grindfest?

Hell Avenger.7021:

TooBz.3065:

I don’t think anyone is saying that flippers are marking items up. That’s a strawman.

There are two discussions going more of less simultaneously. First is about flipping itself. Is it good or bad for the economy. The second is about the concentration of wealth and the effect that this has on the game.

The reason they are related is that flipping is the way that the wealth gets concentrated.

Speaking only for myself. I don’t do it because it’s not fun. There are lots of activities in this game that I refuse to do because I don’t enjoy them. Flipping is one of them. I play this game to enjoy myself – period. If I don’t enjoy it I don’t do it. Honestly, you don’t need money in this game at all if you don’t buy into the grind, grind, grind, bullkitten that ANet keeps pushing.

Flipper also spend money too. It is just they can afford more. When they spend gold on items, that is money to other players.

Nah! you just roll around in the gold like Scrooge McDuck.

I don’t think anyone is saying that flippers are marking items up. That’s a strawman.

There are two discussions going more of less simultaneously. First is about flipping itself. Is it good or bad for the economy. The second is about the concentration of wealth and the effect that this has on the game.

The reason they are related is that flipping is the way that the wealth gets concentrated.

Speaking only for myself. I don’t do it because it’s not fun. There are lots of activities in this game that I refuse to do because I don’t enjoy them. Flipping is one of them. I play this game to enjoy myself – period. If I don’t enjoy it I don’t do it. Honestly, you don’t need money in this game at all if you don’t buy into the grind, grind, grind, bullkitten that ANet keeps pushing.

Hell Avenger.7021:

I will be honest. This whole thread is basically from the COF nerf. There was never such a big debate, until COF nerf is announced and being acted upon next week. Jealousy make people cry, they want to drag everyone to their level.

Actually, I don’t flip or farm COF. I just like to argue.

Hell Avenger.7021:

OK buddy look, I WILL EXPLAIN with a simple example to make you understand why trading cause no detriment to anyone. It is price discovery in practice.

Assume a normal market of Good A:

Assuming TP fee is 10% for simplicity.
Assume there are constant demand for this good.

Current Ask (listing) Price is $10/unit.
Current Bid Price is $ 5/Unit.

You the trader see this opportunity, and you buy at $5.01. You resale the item at $9.99. You effectively lowered the price for the good for everyone. NOW, if enough traders come in and do the same tactic. They will buy at $5.02, and resale the item at $9.98. KEEP ON GOING.

Eventually, they will reach an equilibrium price. The TRUE Value (taking into account of the fees) of the item. WAIT A MINUTE, did the price just increase for Bid price? Yes, it did, and it should. WHY you ask? The bid price was too low, people gave a lowball bid price (happen very often when you buy a house), that is a price that the guy can make an arbitrage profit. However, at the equilibrium price there is no arbitrage profit.

The thing you are complaining about (drumroll): NOT ENOUGH TRADERS, thus there are profit!

Dude, try to be a little less hostile. All I wanted was an explanation, which until now you refused to provide.

I do think that without flippers the markets would more or less find their own price equilibrium, but you may be speeding the process.

So… on to concentration of wealth. Kidding.

Fungalfoot.7213:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Profit does not come at the expense of anyone else, unless it is taken by force. By the way, it may be unfun for you, but don’t place your subjective interpretations of that word above everyone else’s.

I am not objecting your right to flip. What I am objecting is the fact that flipping is the only way to get ahead currently. It generates way too much gold compared to other activities and it needs to be addressed.

Unless you can somehow cap the amount that any one person can make off the TP, you can’t fix this.

Here’s why. People can’t farm everything they want. They can only farm somethings. For example, there’s no reasonable way to farm a sigil of bloodlust. If you want one you go to the TP (or make a mystic axe, but don’t nitpick)

So if other areas are more rewarding people will either have more gold (inflationary) or more goods (deflationary) or both. Assume stability, this means that more volume will flow through the TP. As more volume flows through the TP the flippers will make more money (cash flow).

mtpelion.4562:

Fungalfoot.7213:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Every action you perform in the real world and in Guild Wars is selfish. Every action YOU perform is by your own volition, meaning YOU WANT to perform that action. If you WANT it, it’s selfish. Think about what you’re saying.

The mental gymnastics you folks will employ to justify flipping will never cease to amaze me. Truly.

Come on, we all know that the profit comes at the expense of somebody else. I don’t really have a problem with flipping itself as it’s one of the last ways of actually making money in this game but I do have a problem with flippers trying to pretend they’re doing something useful here. When you flip you do it for one reason and one reason alone and that is to make a load of gold for yourself. And hey, I don’t have a problem with that as I’ve often resorted to the very same methods when I’ve been in a tight spot.

My problem is that this is a fundamentally broken and unfun system. The most efficient way to progress shouldn’t be sitting in Lion’s Arch and playing the trading post. That is the crux of the issue and that is what needs to be rectified. It’s a far greater issue than farming.

At whose expense does the profit come? The seller listed the item and got exactly what he asked for it. The buyer purchased the item and paid exactly what he was willing to spend.

Seems to me like everyone got exactly what they wanted out of the transaction, including the flipper.

Not true in this closed system. There are no viable alternative outlets for goods. People can’t make side deals (too much scamming and corruption) and the vendor price is ridiculous. I think it’s more reasonable to say, the seller sold for the price he could get and the buyer bought for the price he had to pay.

Hell Avenger.7021:

Fungalfoot.7213:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Every action you perform in the real world and in Guild Wars is selfish. Every action YOU perform is by your own volition, meaning YOU WANT to perform that action. If you WANT it, it’s selfish. Think about what you’re saying.

The mental gymnastics you folks will employ to justify flipping will never cease to amaze me. Truly.

Come on, we all know that the profit comes at the expense of somebody else. I don’t really have a problem with flipping itself as it’s one of the last ways of actually making money in this game but I do have a problem with flippers trying to pretend they’re doing something useful here. When you flip you do it for one reason and one reason alone and that is to make a load of gold for yourself. And hey, I don’t have a problem with that as I’ve often resorted to the very same methods when I’ve been in a tight spot.

My problem is that this is a fundamentally broken and unfun system. The most efficient way to progress shouldn’t be sitting in Lion’s Arch and playing the trading post. That is the crux of the issue and that is what needs to be rectified. It’s a far greater issue than farming.

It doesnt come at the expense of anyone. “We all know.” LOL. You are assuming trader charge exuberantly high prices. (Which we will be undercut to death)

No such assumption is necessary. The TP generates no gold. Therefore, if you walk away with some you get it from someone else.

Here, I contend that it comes at the expense of the patient. You reduce the amount people who place buy and sell orders can benefit. It favors the impatient because they get a better deal. And you pocket a portion for yourself.

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

I’m not advocating the restriction, I’m just answering the question. I have to think that if people were limited to trading 500 items per day, anyone playing the game normally would have more than enough room to sell everything they acquire.

And their most active players, including a lot of “farmers” would be stuck with too many items to trade, and have to stuff their bank, guild bank, alts with everything they can’t sell, or vendor it and lose money and therefore the motivation to play.

This is bad.

Remember, the TP was set up this way, it didn’t just happen. They could have made a separate TP for each server, making each game world a closed system unless you paid a huge fee to change servers. Because every server is a river that feeds into the same ocean, certain things are possible and other things are not possible to do within the game.

Whether or not an individual likes the way the TP works, it cannot be denied that Anet – and the man they hired to run it – wants it to work this way.

The point is that there is a theoretical number of trades (I don’t know the number) that would allow normal players to sell all the goods they acquire but would restrict the ability of other players to make a fortune flipping.

From that basis, we can discuss whether this is a good idea or a terrible one (I honestly don’t know). But I don’t want to nitpick over the number because we’re not implementing anything.

Regarding how ANet wants things to be. We haven’t seen the trumpeting about the great economy we got when the game launched. In fact they have been silent on this regard. I think the economy is stable, that doesn’t mean its optimal.

Hell Avenger.7021:

this is becoming basically an argument of “financial and economikittenerates” vs “non literates (ethics, fair and all that excuses)”

So many of the against “flipping arguments” are wrong. I will be honest, investment is my real world specialty.

Yes, I am not an investment expert. But I don’t think I’ve made a single ethics based argument, although I have discussed how different actions affect different parts of the community. I also do not appreciate being call non-literate.

What I am trying to have is an actual discussion about the trading post, it’s good points, and it’s bad points. Do you actual think anything we say here will be implemented or even considered? Please. This discussion is only for our own amusement.

This is a prime opportunity for you to educate the “non-literates.” I will be honest, I don’t think you know what you are talking about.

Hell Avenger.7021:

Fungalfoot.7213:

Hell Avenger.7021:

Assuming we are raising the price. Actual effect is we are lowering the price. You don’t understand what market maker do, how can I even explain it to you beside give you a course on Finance and investment?

Please do explain to me how you are lowering prices by buying up all the cheap goods from the trading post and marking them up.

it is explained many times in previous posts. go read them

No it wasn’t.

IMO, flippers just reduce the spread between the bid and ask price. This both increases the price of the good and decreases the price of the good. (Probably be about an equal amount.) At best it’s a neutral action.

In fact, I haven’t seen a single explanation from you or anyone else about how it benefits the economy (except for the extra 15% gold sink due to the extra sale.)

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

arabeth.2361:

Religious arguments aside, I can sympathize with the OP’s sentiment that it’s frustrating that the TP PvP minigame is actually the far and away most (potentially) profitable way to play GW2.

I don’t know how to fix that, or even change it. But it is frustrating.

One way would be to limit the number of trades per day or per hour. Most profits are relatively small. The amount that flippers could earn would be much smaller. No more posting 10,000 of this or that.

Then the TP becomes flooded (even more than it is now) with items people want to get rid of and can’t sell because everyone else is trying to get rid of them too.

The only reason for people to invest in the market is big ticket items like precursors and the only reason to sell them is to set the prices much much higher to make maximum profit from each sale, since you can only do a handful of trades per day.

Players who play for long periods of time are punished because they cannot put up all the useless loot they gather during the day and have to either fill up their bank with stuff they don’t want or vendor it for pennies.

Less sales happening each day, while people continue to pull items and coin out of thin air by playing the game accelerates inflation. Piles of things no one wants accumulate while people cannot sell them because of TP limits. The things they DO want rocket up in price because their sale is controlled by market investors who feel the need to make a maximum profit from each sale.

There’s a reason why the TP is run by a professional. If I have a medical problem, I’d rather talk to a doctor than someone who thinks he knows a little about medicine. In the same spirit, I trust the opinions of an experienced professional over someone who doesn’t like the idea of people making money on the TP.

I’m not advocating the restriction, I’m just answering the question. I have to think that if people were limited to trading 500 items per day, anyone playing the game normally would have more than enough room to sell everything they acquire.

arabeth.2361:

Religious arguments aside, I can sympathize with the OP’s sentiment that it’s frustrating that the TP PvP minigame is actually the far and away most (potentially) profitable way to play GW2.

I don’t know how to fix that, or even change it. But it is frustrating.

One way would be to limit the number of trades per day or per hour. Most profits are relatively small. The amount that flippers could earn would be much smaller. No more posting 10,000 of this or that.

thepyroguy.6957:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

SynfulChaot.3169:

We are limited in profit we can make from all other sources in the game. Why should the TP be immune from the limitations ANet has been quite free with applying to all other money-making methods?

I’ll say it again: farming produces money from nothing, which causes inflation. Capital Gains (flipping) merely exchanges money and loses some in the trading process, which fights against inflation.

And I’ll say it again. Flipping is leeching off of the system and is IMHO unethical. ‘Farmers’, aka players who are playing the kittening game, get punished and restricted while those that play the TP and siphon money away from said players get rewarded and are unrestricted.

Maybe I’m missing something (and I’ve only taken one semester of intro to economics so please don’t hate too much (-: ) but it seems to me that their is a gap between the buyers and the sellers, and the only thing the flippers are doing is narrowing this gap and of course making money in the process.

Is this not actually increasing total satisfaction?

Sellers are getting more money for their goods then they would if they had sold to the previous buyers bid and the “buy now” buyers are getting a lower price than they would have had they bought from the previous “buy now” sellers.

As for the negative effect flippers have on inflation, with money essentially being printed every time someone kills a mob or completes a quest, isn’t this a good thing?

I don’t know maybe I’m looking at it too simplistically.

I think your leaving out a couple of players. Here’s how I think about it. You have the patient seller, the patient buyer, the impatient seller, and the impatient buyer.

Without the flippers the patient seller sells to the impatient buyer at a high price, the impatient seller sells to a patient buyer at a low price.

What the flipper does is narrow the gap between the two prices. The patient seller gets less, the patient buyer pays more, the impatient seller gets more, and the impatient buyer pays less.

However, this isn’t a 1 to 1 gain. Every copper the flipper pockets (and pays in TP fees) comes from someone else.

Sorry, I no know bigum words. But I do best.

Not everyone agrees that Arbitrage is always helpful or good for the economy. For example. http://home.uchicago.edu/weyl/Second_Draft_Arbitrage.pdf (I know — those communists at the University of Chicago, but what can you do?)

Even if it is good for a general economy, this is not a real economy, it’s virtual economy. As other’s have pointed out the normal rules may not apply. For example, John talked about some unexpected effects increasing the precursor drop rate could have on the price.

The goal of the game isn’t the efficient flow of capital or allocation of risk, it’s the enjoyment of the gamers. Often one group has to limit their enjoyment for the good of the collective (look at the farming nerfs, the changes to dungeon running, world bosses, etc…)

Finally, no one has even address the fact that ,as many people point out, the trading post is a gold sink and does not generate any money on its own, every copper that you make in “arbitrage” is just moving a copper from either the seller or the buyer to your pocket.

FirstBlood.7359:

The GuildWars2 communist party [KP].

Aside from the obvious trolling, wealth concentration is a recognized problem in any society that isn’t a banana republic. So having people discuss the downside of wealth concentration does not mean that we’re communist.

Edit: It means that we care about the game and are interested in the economy.

I like the way some of them look, but I’m not “impressed” by people who have them.

Of course, I am also not impressed by people who speed clear dungeons.

mtpelion.4562:

Inflation occurs when the currency volume increases and purchasing power decreases in order to balance the two (keeping the midpoint in a relatively balanced place).

In a game, currency volume increases the fastest in the first year (as all the new players are building their characters and doing quests, etc.) and spikes during content releases (when the number of players is peaking). At all times though, there is a constant influx of new currency from players playing the game, but especially from farmers who are focused on maximizing their time to currency conversion.

In order to prevent these sources of new currency from creating unmanageable inflation, games insert “gold sinks” or things for which you pay gold that have no asset value (essentially, where money is deleted from the game thereby removing currency volume). In GW2, the largest by volume is probably the Trading Post fee. Other examples include the Commander title, repair fees, and any soul or account bound items that cost gold.

Blaming the Trading Post for inflation is about as incorrect as possible. No currency is ever created in the Trading Post, rather existing currency is traded and some of it destroyed. Farmers get nerfed because they cause inflation by creating new currency too quickly which causes inflation. Trading Post flippers won’t get nerfed because they provide a valuable service to the economy, not just in deflating the currency but by also helping to quickly normalize prices.

In reality, the only real complaint that can be leveled against Flippers is that they are concentrating wealth. If this was the real world, that could pose a potential stagnation problem, but this is a game in which infinite gold and resources are available to everyone so the only downside is that luxury items (Legendaries and their component parts) are probably overpriced.

I think the concentration of wealth issue could be a real problem. Let’s assume for a minute that the consolidation of wealth increases the price of what you call “luxury” goods. (I’m not sure that it does, so this may be a false premise, but lets go with it for a minute)

For most people, luxury goods everyone else calls the end game. So by inflating the price of the end game items you are pushing end game rewards further out of reach of the “normal” players.

Guild wars 2 was original set up that these end game items were suppose to be the thing that people work towards once they completed the main content. They were the item to grind for, the reason to log on. However, as the price of these end game rises against what normal players can afford or realistically save for, they give up.

Instead they cry out for some item that is easier to get but still allows them to feel like they are progressing. Thus is introduced time-gated stat progression.

One of the few mistakes that I think John is making with the economy is assuming that the price of the luxury good doesn’t matter.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

SynfulChaot.3169:

We are limited in profit we can make from all other sources in the game. Why should the TP be immune from the limitations ANet has been quite free with applying to all other money-making methods?

I’ll say it again: farming produces money from nothing, which causes inflation. Capital Gains (flipping) merely exchanges money and loses some in the trading process, which fights against inflation.

Sure, flippers move an extra 15% out of the economy. Big whoop. I’d be willing to see what happens without them. (Not advocating this, but lets not pretend you play a vital role to the economy either.)

Assume you have four types of people the patient seller, the patient buyer, the impatient buyer, and the impatient seller. Normally the patient seller sells to the impatient buyer and the impatient seller sells to the buyer.

All flippers do is compete with both the patient buyer and the patient seller.

Of course, you would be robber barons can all relax, Anet has shown an incredible laissez-faire attitude toward the TP. Personally, I think they see it as a grand experiment.

You know that the minute someone earned 1000 gold some other way patches would be made and bans would be issued.

I usually kill salmon in the center area of frostgorge sound hear the entrance to the dungeon.

That post was a year ago. Many things have changed since then. This one should too.

I don’t think we can reconcile these two views. I understand your character as an individual and you understand my character as a skin viewpoint. But I think that they are mutually exclusive. We can’t have it both ways.

Which, honestly, makes me a little sad, cause frankly I’m sick of grinding new stuff every time I want to try something a little different. Oh well

Actually I have run COF p1 with multiple toons / day in order to gear up an alt. It was an easy way to get (at the time) 198 tokens / day. After all, if I was going to run it three times anyway, you may as well get the reward. But I never swapped out a toon at the end.

I quit doing it because it’s boring.

Xhyros.1340:

TooBz.3065:

Xhyros.1340:

Infernia.9847:

If it is an account wide reward then please allow achievements to be account wide as well. Ie. Story mode is completed on your main, it’s counted as completed for all characters.

edit: grammatical error

Why not go all the way and make every single stat/skin account bound. If I unlock dungeon armor for one char, make me able to use it for every other char, if they do make all these reward changes accountbound.

I actually can’t tell if you are being sarcastic. But I actually agree. Rewards should be earned for the account, effort put in should contribute to the account. In my view, I am one person playing a game. Whether I choose to play with 1 character or 10 should not make a difference.

Not sarcastic, just conditionally peeved if the change is accountbound. It’s hard enough to gear alts with time gated mechanics (DR per day), but make these time gated mechanics even more time gated by having these completion rewards accountbound would just suck, majorly. We’ll just have to wait a week and see.

Yes. For me this is the single biggest problem with the game. As more awards are earned per account, be benefits are accrued per character the more I think that creating alts is a mistake. I’m still trying to decide how to handle it.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Not finished, but have to pop into a meeting, I’ll be back

I look forward to it. My thoughts on this are evolving rapidly right now and it’s nice to have someone thoughtful to discuss it with (if I seem kitteny, I’m mostly frustrated with this aspect of the game.) I see that as the single thing that is most likely to make to me stop playing, so it’s important to me..

Good point on the cultural armor. My thinking was more about T3 which is ridiculously expensive. Once I buy it I feel like it should generally be unlocked.

My current thinking is that, as a starting position, everything should be per account. Nothing should be soulbound, dyes should be unlocked for the account, waypoints should be unlocked for the account, dungeon rewards should be earned per account, etc… This view is based on the idea that I am playing the game. My characters are not independent entities but extensions of myself as a gamer.

From that position, I can see backing off for some things. Maybe waypoints should be unlocked, but hearts should not. The personal story shouldn’t be completed. Alts should not be level 80.

I don’t know what to do about the 100% map completion gift. I kind of feel like once you’ve done map completion for the account, it should be done for the account meaning that you maybe shouldn’t get just two.

Anyway, it’s mostly irrelevant as this is not the game ANet created.

Note: i think there’s also merit to the other position. Everything is separate. having two toons is exactly the same as having two accounts. Of course, I can’t imagine that anyone would create alts under this system, but were getting there anyway.

Edit: Also, not all skins should be unlocked. But some should. I’m not sure how to balance this.

Xhyros.1340:

Infernia.9847:

If it is an account wide reward then please allow achievements to be account wide as well. Ie. Story mode is completed on your main, it’s counted as completed for all characters.

edit: grammatical error

Why not go all the way and make every single stat/skin account bound. If I unlock dungeon armor for one char, make me able to use it for every other char, if they do make all these reward changes accountbound.

I actually can’t tell if you are being sarcastic. But I actually agree. Rewards should be earned for the account, effort put in should contribute to the account. In my view, I am one person playing a game. Whether I choose to play with 1 character or 10 should not make a difference.

Vol.5241:

TooBz.3065:

Vol.5241:

Kimhyuna.1035:

Vol.5241:

Well it’s your fault for putting your eggs in one basket. Or in other words, creating alts for the sole purpose of running the same dungeon multiple times.

If you love your alts so much, just run them on different paths depending on the need.

Wait what, but anet told us we could play the game the way we want to. There are people in this world that create alts for the purpose of reward, not everyone has holy intentions.

You can throw out that line as much as you want, but there will always be different groups of players that get shafted due to conflicting desires.

Sure, but it does seem like more often that not the people who get shafted are the ones with Alts. Now that it may be that they are shafting everyone and if you have 5 alts you feel it 5 times as much.

Yeah, and on the same token, you can make the argument that those with only 1 character are at a disadvantage. So it goes both ways.

It all comes down to which behavior ANet wants to incentivize. If they want to incentivize having one character only then they should make rewards per account and make unlocks per character. If they want to incentivize having multiple characters they should do the reverse.

It seems more clear all the time that the system incentivizes having one character.